The Cyclical Storytelling of Dune
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- čas přidán 18. 04. 2024
- Dune contains so many fascinating themes, but what really interests me is how those themes are structured. Today, we're talking all about the cycles of Dune's storytelling and how they contribute to the story's excellence.
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"I enjoy talking about the ideas of Dune more than I enjoy reading it"... Somewhere, a tear of joy welled up in the eye of an awakened ghola of Frank Herbert.
At the end of watching this, I can fully agree. 😊
Look frank has a great world but the prose is just .... not good? Idk man exposition should be given through natural dialog not thrown in haphazardly
@@jamie8703that said, exposition is
V A S T L Y underrated. Not everything needs to be fucking shown in 4K. You can be bogged down by fast paced storytelling, too.
@billyalarie929 I like exposition but I'm not a fan of Herbert's. In My writing I expect people to be curious so I reveal pieces through dialog because the speakers already know the context they don't need to explain to each other.
When you write a classic like Dune, then speak.
The plot of dune ultimately ends up as, “ would you still love me if I was worm?”
fuck it really is a question coded into our genes isnt it
@@aguspuig6615 surprisingly is
I will love you if you're a worm particularly if you're leto the god emperor
@@BotSpider ya that's great pal, but I ain't fallin' off no bridge, capische?
@@benjamincarnell2590 wow, and to think i would love you
Wow, you are the very first perdon on the internet I've met who treated Alia with sympathy, and who's percieving her as a tragic heroine rather than a villainess. Thank you.
In the cyclical nature of Dune, one aspect that I haven’t heard anybody break down yet is how Herbert would give the audience the ending (though vague) pretty much right at the beginning and then constantly remind the audience of it and further expand on it all the way till the end of the each book. I’ve felt that this was his way of subtly giving the audience a glimpse of the experience of prescience.
I always think the Bene Gesserits search for the kwisatz haderach is the biggest joke of the Dune books, The person they try to create is a victim of the forces or fate, and they would never ever succeed in controlling him/it, since the kwisatz haderach would automatically be a slave to bigger forces than the sisterhood could ever muster.
Totallys true! Similar to any technology promising control, the tech itself controls those who would seek to control. The books 4, 5, and 6 are about leading humanity to avoid prescience in the same way they've had to avoid thinking machines, and for the same reasons.
My hunch is that the sisterhood was trying to create more of an Oracle of Delphi or a Cassandra analogue, where they would get access to perfect predictions yet the person giving it has no power to affect it. Instead, they got a victim of a blood feud fueled by revenge and whose only chance to survive was to activate the religious fanaticism of the most dangerous warrior race in the galaxy.
In a Hole in the Dune, there lived a Hobbit.
That's probably where her mind will wander if she's not careful. 😉
He had a hard time keeping the sand out.
@@thethegreenmachine "The sand was coarse, rough, irritating, and it got everywh...." (Sparking lightsaber impales the narrator)
😂
a Fremen*
Another Jess of the Shire video talking about Dune? I’m in
Bene Jess-erite
Nice to see someone else understands Dune ... The Golden Path is the only one where Humanity doesn't cycle forever, changing but not ultimately changing ... it instead diversifies, and explodes onto the universe
Well there are others where the cycle breaks, but only through extinction
Or one where paul chooses not to complete his premonitions, which are really just memories of all the pauls that came before, in terms of genetic memory.
His " visions of the future" really are just visions of his ancestral past, which he through his own actions, brings into tragic fruition, repeating the cycle.
@@xTheUnderscorex Yup, Leto explicitly says if it weren't for him, ALL Humanity would already be extinct. And it would've been by prescient berserker machines built by IX. So he held them back technologically, but allowed them to progress slowly until they had developed anti-prescient technology, and he had time to breed anti-prescient Humans. So prescience could not be used to find all the humans.
@@littlegreenman609I don’t think that’s exactly it. Without knowledge of the past he cant predict the future, but predict it he absolutely does.
A great video. “All rebels are closet aristocrats. That's why I can convert them so easily.” Dune explains human nature: a today's rebel is a tomorrow's ruler, and then the cycle repeats, ergo revolution. Herbert understood those patterns well.
Back in the day referring to a noble by the wrong title, (Duke versus Earl) or hell even making eye contact could put you in a pillory or worse, lose a body part. Funny... now there are penalties for using the wrong pronoun... almost... cyclical.... as if a new aristocracy was being built; but rather than blood lines, built on identity.
Omg there aren't "penalties" for doing those things, nobody will put you in jail for it. You MIGHT get fired if you constantly make your coworkers identities an issue of debate, but again -- that's not an issue of their identity, that's an issue of you making a hostile work environment.
@@IdgaradLyracant I've spent the last forty years watching the beneficiaries of past inequality whine about being the victims of reverse prejudice, while cheering on unlimited capitalism and wealth concentration. The new aristocracy will be some faction of white male property owners because they alone feel entitled to burn down the world if they're not its masters, not queer people and brown people trying to live without fear of being dragged in an alley and beaten for who they are. The real power in the world is caste hierarchy and that is built with money and guns that those you hate do not have.
@@IdgaradLyracantThe only penalty for calling someone the wrong pronoun is possibly someone disliking you ma'am.
@@IdgaradLyracantyou just really wanna be persecuted by someone don’t you
Jess you should seriously consider doing audio books! Your narration is so good! You definitely capture the emotion in the words and I could listen to your voice all day.
I concur :D
Do a reading of God Emperor of Dune!
I agree
With the exception of the first book which I reread every few years, I have often said that I'd rather read a good essay about the ideas in Dune than read the books themselves.
This is how I feel about LOTR which is why I subscribe to this channel! 😆 (Edit: I do love the Hobbit though.)
God Emperor was a somewhat dated slog and I barely remember what happened in books 5 and 6. Not to mention the occasional sexism and homophobia throughout the series.
@@Best_Stressed It's frustrating when something is interesting to think about and discuss but not to actually experience.
@@sebastianevangelista4921 yeah the Dune series really drops off in quality after just the first book. Dune Messiah is ok. Children of dune is a little better. God-Emperor is basically “Horny Old Worm Yells at Cloud”. The last two books are totally forgettable.
@@aaronlc7948 I will be using "Horny Old Worm Yells at Cloud" going forward, so thanks for that one 😆!
I love how no matter what you're talking about you're so soothing. I was on the edge of sleep when I started watching this video, and it simultaneously kept my attention to keep me awake and also made me feel so relaxed I'm probably going to burrow in now and take a nice nap.
I made a playlist of my favourite videos from Jess of the Shire, and when I have a particularly vexing day at my job? I put on that playlist and it is so soothing and helps me get to sleep. As a bonus? I even had some dreams that I was in Middle Earth!
this channel is by far in my top 5 channels now
Same.
100%
Same. Equally awesome as content to actively watch and pay attention to as it is for ASMR/sleep aid
Absolutely! I always look forward to new content from Jess.
Dear Lady Jessica in a chair. Thanks for another thought provoking video about storytelling and human nature. I love it, keep 'em coming!
You're spot on about the importance of breaking cycles. To my mind, Dune is essentially a Greek Tragedy; a cautionary tale that warns us against the masochistic path of strength through suffering. Seen in that way, Leto the Second's Golden Path (paved with blood) was about breaking the cycle of tragedy and starting a new narrative cycle.
What story will Siona tell? Will she invent plot armour? Will she pen a comedy? He can't tell, because all he knows are the patterns of tragedy. But she knows another. Her big test will be the one that her ancestors all failed: to change herself. To identify and reject the patterns of violence and justification within herself, which have served her well in destroying "evil," but now threaten to turn her into a monster like all the others. May she succeed where others have failed. May we all succeed in becoming our best selves.
Your videos make Friday all that much sweeter. Perfect way to unwind after a work week and prepare for a (hopefully) magical weekend!
I hope your weekend is turning out better than you'd hoped.
Very astute analysis of the first 4 Dune novels, which in some ways furthers my understanding of the 5th and 6th novels as well, even though you haven't read them yet. Really hope you'll make similar video's after reading "Heretics of Dune" and "Chapterhouse Dune". I'm particularly interested in your reaction to and thoughts on the ending of "Chapterhouse" and where you think the story might have gone next if Herbert had survived to write the planned 7th novel.
Many of Dune's images and scenes stay with me like no other series I've read. Also the inner thoughts of the characters was/is very powerful.
Thank-you Jess for your deep dives. Both Tolkien and Herbert are my favourite authors. To have someone articulate the ideas that have been ruminating in me for years is an absolute joy. Love the work you put into your videos and I am one who appreciates the effort. Please keep doing fantastic work.
Quick share: The following part always gets me teary from God Emperor of Dune, even as I write it here: "Her last word, calm and steady, rolled through all of his memories: 'I shall go on ahead, Love.'"
Thanks Jess
I’d enjoy hearing you talk about whether Leto II was evil or not.
Now read heretics and Chapterhouse pleaseeeee 🙏🏻
Oh, yes. The Golden Path. The fulfilment of the plan to make humanity infinite. So very, very good.
Im so happy you are exploring dune! Such an interesting series
Just hearing you say you read God Emperor makes me so happy! It's my favorite in the series!
I'm surprised you didn't mention the cycle of Duncan Idahos a little more, but I would love a deep dive into the endless series of Duncans!
It always makes me picture "Durmamu, I've come to bargain."
I really enjoyed this! Even so, you call it a deep dive, all you talked about kept me interested and that is tough for me to do. Please do whatever you want to do, for the next one. Since this was again really enjoyable, I will look forward to what is next. Thank you!
THIS was so helpful, to a dude who read the books at uni back in the early to mid-70s. Thanx so much Jess!
I loved this video!!!
I read "DUNE" a few years ago before part one came out and recently re-read it along with "DUNE Messiah" and am currently reading "Children of DUNE." I found your channel just a few months ago, but I must confess that the way you talk about lore with so much passion is what motivated me to read the rest of the books. It has been a delight to hear you reflect on the books, the themes they address, and how cyclical the narrative of the saga is.
I want to let you know that as soon as I finish DUNE, I will start reading "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" books for the first time. And by the way, I would like you to make a video talking about the books that have influenced you the most on a personal level.
Thanks for reviving my reading habit. A big hug from Mexico City!!! 😎🇲🇽
Another Jess video about Dune LETSGOOOOOO
I have thus far avoided reading more of the Dune series after the first book because of where I previously understood that the story went. Thank you for explaining in a MUCH better way where the story goes. I think I will strike out and finish the series now.
Just finished Children of Dune and it was great. A bit weird, but I really enjoyed it.
Messiah and Children are the conclusion of Paul's story, and God-Emperor rounds off the initial story. Heretics and Chapter-House are the start of a second story - a true sequel to the earlier tetralogy - though Frank Herbert died before finishing it, and the eventual conclusion in Hunters and Sandworms, credited to Brian Herbert, while it ties in elements from his father's work, has to be understood as well-written fanfic rather than the true conclusion (much as the final volumes of Wheel of Time, however closely based on Jordan's own outline, are ultimately Brandon Sanderson writing for Robert Jordan rather than what Jordan would actually have written).
Definitely read up to god emperor for sure.
Chapterhouse and heretics are also the wild ride, but you could read up to God Emperor and feel satisfied
@@rmsgrey That being said, I firmly believe Jordan had more notes for Sanderson to work with than Frank Herbert had notes for his son to work with.
@@stephengrant4841 It's well established that Jordan spent his last months getting as much of the planned final book into recorded form as possible, even if he couldn't get even a first draft put together. About the only person who could reasonably claim to have more notes to work from in putting together the final work is Christopher Tolkien working from one and two half versions of the Silmarillion...
Jess of the Seitch.
Our new Reverend Mother.
I was completely immersed when watching this video. It send me into a self reflection of myself. so many things revealed themselves to me in watching this video and watching myself. It was the "spice" i needed.
Great video!
Only a small thing irks me: Leto could look at how and when he dies, he chooses not to, instead only checking if the golden path would continue.
Now I'd love that discussion about Leto being evil or not you teased.
I really loved the way you tied the books together. It makes me sad that so many people stop after the first book. The series as a whole is so beautiful and unique. "God Emperor" had me reeling the first time I read it. There's really no other book quite like it.
Wait until you get to Heretics and Chapterhouse.
36:50 That is basically the plot of Dark Souls III
Awesome video 12/10
I don't think just touching water kills sandworms, it has to be more than that. Sandworms eat humans and don't die
Bless the Maker and his water for the algo actually working in my favor and making your video pop up, immediately subscribed ❤ Side note, Alia is my favorite character, and listening to you read her passages made me tear up. Her story is so tragic.
i love these deep dives into this very dense and layered stories of Dune and how you explore the themes and histories.
I see lots of videos talking about Tolkien dislike of the Dune book and none touch the real problem he had with it: Dune has a cynic way of seeing religion. To Herbert religion is a complex way to control the masses and this go against everything Tolkien lives. Tolkien was a catholic.
My “favorite” character in the entire series was Duncan Idaho - but I always felt… sorry for him. I never liked how he was treated, and pretty much just kept reading the series hoping for better for him.
Other than that, I just never cared much for the Dune series. A friend loaned me the books, I read them and returned them. In almost 25 years I have never felt the desire to own any copies for myself - and I’m a definite bibliophile! 😅
That being said, I don’t regret reading them - just not any desire to return. These videos from Jess I find very interesting and will absolutely listen to anything about Dune she cares to make. Her take on its themes are different than what I got out of the books (and I was probably her age when I read them)…
Well, regardless, great video, and I would honestly be interested to hear her thoughts on Duncan. 😊
That’s too bad. Every time I read them I learned something new, or gained some understanding that had escaped me before. Lot of real insight about human nature and society to be found.
I really enjoy your analysis. It is layered, relevant and really does justice to the underlying themes of the source material. You are very inspiring and intelligent. Keep up the good work.
Can I get an audiobook of you reading all of Dune? Simon Vance is great and all, but he doesn't put nearly enough emotion into these scenes
Like, no joke you have recontextualized all of those scenes for me by just putting that level of emotion in them
Try the George Guidall version. I just finished that one and I thought it was incredible
Top tier content as always Jess! Thanks for the video!
Your videos are really great, thought-provoking content.
Thank you for putting in the time and energy to give us this level of high quality material to enjoy.
Cheers!
The one course of action that prevents extinction is unforgivable? I can't get there.
Its certainly a good point to make. I suppose you could say Herbert is presenting a paradox. In order for him to free humanity, and complete the Golden Path, Leto MUST die. And that blow is always most likely to come from within his own regime. Siona remains at the heart of power, but she is still a rebel, with the same desire to kill Leto. Her alliance with Duncan, and the hold she has over Nayla (which Leto put there himself) is the combination that can destroy the God Emperor.
And in the same way that Leto must die, Siona must survive so that her genes can protect future humanity from the scourge of prescience. So the paradox is that by Siona not forgiving him for it, Leto's ultimate plan will be achieved.
Great insights...well done! It makes me want to read the series again.
As Always Lovely. Thank You for Another Awesome Video. Your Dedication Very much Appreciated and your Voice is Wonderful to hear. Have a Great Weekend ❤
Fascinating as usual Jess. You leave lots to ponder upon! When you describe Herbert's Dune-verse, you speak of the tale as if it is some sort of profound reflection about the nature of humanity, it's challenges and so forth. At the same time as you do such a good job of describing Herbert's Dune-verse I'm struck that your thesis appears uncritical. There is a whole lot of "Herbert" that's frankly reactionary as regards how human society should function. I too used to think of humanity as fundamentally destructive of the biome and therefore both un-saveable, and not worthy of saving. Today, I've come to see coexisting with that horrific human nature, that other profoundly human stream; people for whom love and empathy are the fundamental drivers of their lives. Herbert's thesis argues for a world where strong men dominate a world without in effect free-will, where jihadic violence is the natural state of human relations, etc., etc.. That is both a pretty negative view of the core nature of humanity, and it ignores the very real struggles that humanity goes through to deal with these challenges in the real world. Nowhere in his "philosophy" are there reflections upon the value of democracy. His future is a landscape of feudal great houses for C's sake! Nowhere did I find Herbert confronting the challenges he sets up with such with things like a democratic state, or taking the path of Bhudda, or simply living values of morality, kindness, love as a driving factors. And frankly, since only complete fascism could force all of humanity to follow one real-life deity, there really is no way that such a dynasty could deliver 4,000 years of boring peace. Thanks for allowing me to babble ;-)
Wow!! I really enjoyed your deep-dive analysis of Dune!!! Your narration is really good. Watching your enjoyment and passion of talking about Dune brings me joy!! I’m looking forward to more deep-dives. I would love your thoughts on the Bene Gesserit & also Frank’s warning of religious fanaticism.
Thanks for another Dune video! I am not going to watch it yet though, I haven't yet read the other books. But I can't wait to watch it. Thanks Jess!
I love Friday afternoons. Not only is the work week ending, but we also get a new video from Jess. :)
I always look forward to Fridays now.
Loved this vid so much!
Simply epic! Thanks Jess!!!!❤😊❤
Happy Friday Jess
Amazing summary of the cycles and parallels in the Dune saga.
Thank you for making this video.
I love your perspective. Please consider doing a in-depth review/analysis on John Steakley's Amour. So Many Layers.
I just read God Emperor and then was watching a movie scene with a drill sargent and I think the unusually cruel drill Sargent is a good comparison to what Leto II is. He breaks humanity until a new sort of discipline can come from it. It’s strange how we see everything from his view essentially and he is clearly the greatest villain in the book. But, at the same time his story is unfathomably tragic.
Thank you, Jess. ❤❤
Thank you for diving deep into the circulatory writing of Frank Herburt's Dune, Jess. I have read the six novels many times, and with your insight and discernment, I now have a better understanding of Dune and especially God's Emperor, as he (Leto II) knew that his end had to come. Please continue with the later novels of Heritics and Chapterhouse. 👌
I haven't read the books, I clicked on this because I was too tempted and curious because I've been working on a Final on the Hero's Journey in Dune (the movies) and the Aeneid, and I was unexpectedly GUTTED by what you're saying. Literal tears because of how tragic this story is.
When my eyes had learned to focus, I looked out at sunshine on trampled grass and I saw vigorous people going about the sweet activities of their lives. Where... oh where has all of that vigor gone?
I love hearing your commentaries about Dune. I'm not really into LotR, so can't enjoy most of your stuff as much, but if you keep making Dune content I'll be sure to come back!
I'm curious to hear your or anyone's thoughts on how they'll adapt Dune Messiah into Dune Part 3. I just read Messiah for the first time and it's fresh on my mind.
Re listened to God Emperor audio book recently, decided it’s meant to be read as a comedy.
Some of Leto II’s lines in book 4 would support that. In one of the books there’s a line about how leaders need to cultivate a cynical sardonic attitude towards themselves.
They now are little more than poignant reminders… as is this Duncan who stands in front of me with his lasgun…
Great Gods below! He has caught me napping. He has the lasgun in his hand and it is pointed at my face.
Love you Jess ❤️
Huh, I never thought about the story that way. That's super interesting!
I love your LOTR content so much but still totally excited about you diving into Dune. Id love to hear your perspective into “if Leto II is evil”. The Silmarillion is my favorite book and God emperor is my favorite Dune book but Heretics of Dune has my favorite character, Sheeana. Love to hear what you think about her, Face Dancers and No-ships!
I was curious why you left Duncan Idaho out of the story as Alia's husband and his marriage to Siona and their children after the death of Leto II. Duncan's many lives certainly fit into a cyclical pattern. Was it because he isn't important from the perspective of the themes you were discussing, or maybe his parts are being held back to be discussed in another video about what all he himself represents? I am certainly hoping for the latter. Though I realize it could be something completely different than either of those two guesses.
Last year I finished reading, for the second time, all six books in the original series and I have to agree with you that it is far more enjoyable to discuss them than read them.
I've reread the Dune series a bunch of times, as well as watched and read as many thoughts and discussions on it as I could find.
And yet this video felt like it put several aspects of the series into a fresh perspective!
..now I really want to know what would stick out to you in Heretics/Chapterhouse.
Not to mention, the quality of the effort in this video is top notch.
Most other channels making Dune content are not on this level.
As a great director who was inspired by Dune put it so plainly, “It’s like poetry. They rhyme.”
lovely video thank you.
I like the last two books the most - probably because they deal with the Bene Geserit.
That decoration you have on your chair reminds me of my slovak grandma's house
I would absolutely love a video about the transformation of Duncan Idaho from start to end of the original series.
Great video!
May God bless you and your work lady Jess 💙💙💙 respect from Croatia-Europe 😇😇😇
Currently on page 409 Children of Dune and I’m loving it so far!
It was so hard for me to love the first book bc I didn’t really enjoy it at all. Dune Messiah was going in the right direction but I still questioned myself if I wanted to continue with the series. Children of Dune is the first book I actually loved from the series so far.
I’m really excited to read the rest of them!
It's been decades since I've read the books, and I couldn't get past God Emperor, but it's always a pleasure to listen to your literary and critical analysis. Interesting and well done.
Adored this. Thank you so very much.
I wonder what you might make of Roger Zelazny's AMBER Chronicles?
Or the very sprawling, very raw, very beautiful CHRONICLES OF THOMAS COVENANT THE UNBELIEVER?
The books are pretty excellent, but if I’m being totally honest, I probably enjoy the ideas more than reading the books themselves. Which is probably why I enjoy Villeneuve’s films so much! They distill Dune’s best, most coherent ideas and bring them to life.
I think you may have added the wrong video to your Dune playlist, you've got a Hobbit video in there, instead of this one. Would you consider doing a video discussing your opinion of the Dune movies? How well do you think they capture the themes, etc, of the book? What do you think about the changes that were made? I would greatly appreciate it if you could produce such a video. I deeply enjoy hearing your thoughts in every video you create. I would join your patreon, but due to poor health I cannot do so at present 😢. Thank you for all you do ❤
Upon the next Dune video, Jess of the Shire shall be known as the Bene Jess-erite.
I'll see myself out. You're welcome.
I was just reading the first Fune book on my way back from work!
I'd love to see you cover Ursula K le Guin's novels, either her Hainish Cycle or the Earthsea Cycle. The Left Hand of Darkness especially is just. Such a masterpiece
the whole leto the second and ghanima story is so tragic but so strange and i love it
Excellent review of Dune
Just when I thought Friday couldn't get any better
I'd love to hear your thoughts about Dosadi Experiment. It's one of my favorite non-Dune Herbert books.
Dosadi is all six Dune books distilled into one TikTok fever dream. Excepting his love letter to Beverly, it's the most beautiful thing Frank Herbert ever wrote.
I would love (if it is in your skill set) a deep dive into the prose of this story!
You kinda hinted at it, so I suppose a good subject for a video would be whether these heroes are good or evil (or neither).
Videos I'd definitely like to see are like certain ones you do for Tolkien (which are excellent): one for how each character is treated by the book vs how they're treated by the screen version (kinda rough since there are now 3, so I think I'd go with the current one at least for now). Some of those people in the current screen version are shadows of who they are in the book (and I bet it'll get even worse if this director continues the series).
I had to subscribe on the basis of this, my first video of yours. Please, more Dune! I'd love to hear your thoughts on the son's attempt to finish his father's series.
Thank you.
Just finished god empower of dune as well. Definitely left me with a lot to think about. On to Heretics of Dune next!
I want to watch this video soooo bad. But I haven't finished the series yet :( will need to come back to this.
Thanks!
I'd love to hear you talk about the symolism of the Gholas and their reoccurring lives. Particu;ar;y in how the Ghola Duncans continuely unlock all their past memories (this is delt with in more depth in the last two books, which I still recommend even though that second sub-series only got finished by other writers)
fantastic video, you are soooo articulate
I just finished the German audio book of the "heretics(?) of Dune" and have to say the whole series feels so unique. The main character of the first book basically not succeeding out of fear and going onwards blind which is a big disability that is rare for the main protagonist, while his son actually does what Paul couldn't do, sacrificing so much including his own reputation. While helping basically humanity he will be seen as a tyrant and diabolical. At the same time you root for Paul and his successors while you learn more and more about all the terrible things happening to humanity
I wanna see a video on debating if Lato is a villain or not. I got my popcorn waiting. XD
I really enjoy your interpretations of Dune. I'd love to hear what you think of the rest of the story.
holy papercut... Finally I felt like I got some of what makes Dune interesting, the idea of breaking fate, for the Eternal Champion to find Tanelorn, for Kains coin to finally land on it's edge...