Why Normies Will HATE DUNE PART 3 & Why Fans Will Love It...
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- čas přidán 1. 09. 2023
- An exploration of the reasons that a film adaptation of "Dune Messiah" is likely to generate significant pushback or even distaste among general audiences, even while it has the potential to be a beloved installment for dedicated fans of the series. Ever since it was reported that Denis Villeneuve intended to conclude his adaptation of Frank Herbert’s Dune saga with his second book, Dune Messiah, fans of the series have been speculating about how audiences will react. While at first glance Dune might appear to be a tale of heroic triumph for Paul Atreides, its sequel-Dune Messiah-presents an unsettling and profoundly challenging portrait of Paul’s reign. This jarring transition from apparent heroism to what seems like villainy is crucial to understanding Herbert's grander vision. This is also why mainstream audiences may find it difficult to digest, even as die-hard fans revel in its thematic depth and complexity. Spoiler warning if you are unfamiliar with Frank Herbert’s Dune Series.
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Being the poisoning of chani over the years why didn't Paul or any of Paul allies in his close circle for see it and prevent it from happening
it sounds like its not worth it, its like star wars came out the normies liked it and than it continues to where everyone hates it
I'm guessing Villeneuve will combine aspects of Messiah and Children for a thematic conclusion.
Chinese AI Vocal BULLSHIT
Paul was a originally a good, idealistic, just, honorable and humanitarian young person. That was his "weakness" and the reason why he avoided the golden path and the terrible things he had to do to save humanity in the long run.... He is a tragic hero.
Also, unlike Alia and the twins, he was still too human for the golden path to be acceptable to him.
The success of "Oppenheimer" gives me hope that general audiences will appreciate the darker elements of Dune Messiah.
Let's hope it's more than just Nolan and Barbenheimer that sold it.
Most Sci Fi aficionados are more tolerant and understanding than this is giving credit.
Mainstream audience - "Surely the good guy is good!"
Frank Herbert - "Hold my Juice of Sapho"
It's more than that. It's the terror of knowing the future and realizing the paths where you are a kind a good ruler leads to the end of everyone and everything, and that for mankind to survive you need to do some very hard things. With great power comes great responsibility.
What would you do? Be the nice guy and doom the human race? Or be forced to be the tool that ensures its survival.
Paul makes these sacrifices, and Leto II makes even more of them.
@@ANonymous-mo6xp
You do what must be done. You tear your heart out and sacrifice it upon the altar of species survival. Let them hate you as much as they please, as long as they still live free and continue to evolve.
>sapho
Merely a catalyst, nothing more. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
That has got to be the best "Hold my ____" I've seen yet.
@ANonymous-mo6xp Understand that my visions are not absolute, since they haven't been so far. Don't be arrogant enough to think that mankind's survival depends on me.
Unlike Lynch's Dune in which Paul is depicted as a triumphant hero and messianic leader, Villeneuve already hinted in part one that blindly following charismatic leaders can lead to horrible things. If he continues to show through Paul's visions and inner conflicts that his actions could have dire consequences, I think that people will be more prepared to see their hero fall from grace and understand that his story arc is a tragic and cautionary tale.
I agree with this. Villeneuve actually gets the themes of Dune and doesnt make it into a generic scifi pulp thriller. I think he set up audiences about as well as he could. The tent vision scene with Paul and Jessica was powerful and memorable.
The Dune 2 trailers already foreshadow Paul's anger towards the future and what he will become. Dune Messiah will probably pass off a few movie fans but will be successful regardless IMO.
I always admired DUNE for not being scared to show the monstrous things that great men must do in pursuit of what they think or hope is a Greater Good.
We must be aware of the costs of rulership, and take responsibility.
Just think how different our current history might have been if President Robert Kennedy had lived through assassination. We just barely missed start of WW III with his show down with Soviet Union 1962 over Cuba.
Paul’s smile at the end of the 1st movie following hearing, “this is just the beginning,” was wonderfully fitting considering what was about to be set in motion. Paul’s character is beautifully tragic.
That's why the real villains of Dune aren't Harkonnens. Its Bene Gesserit and their diabolical machinations that irredeemably set Paul, his sister and children as tragic figures.
@@CrazyChemistPL 100% correct - they are just pawns
Paul could have said no. He's the villain
@@bucksfan77 Could he? If he knows that it is even worse fate for humanity if he does?
@CrazyChemistPL he doesn't know that for sure. He thinks that due to bene gesserit dreams he has. This is why i don't love Hubert as compared to Tolkien. This is a free will argument essentially. Aragorn never would have done what Paul did
"Heroes are painful, superheroes are a catastrophe. The mistakes of superheroes involve too many of us in disaster."
- Frank Herbert
Yet here we are in a society practically buried beneath the weight of endless superhero movies.
@@SithCelia and most the stories rarely examine the impact that Frank suggest. Its as if they are all in a weird bubble.
I think people in general are ready for the complex ideas put forth in the Dune series. Recent times have forced people to deal with the fact that their idols are in fact flawed humans, that there are multiple sides to everyone. It's time storytelling was elevated to incorporate some uncomfortable truths about reality. The philistines who don't prefer this kind of story can go see the next superhero movie, which will probably be out in the next 5 minutes.
Wow. So deep man. We’re all quite impressed here, I can tell you.
@@ak3shirokuma well, bless your little heart. Got an original comment or do you always speak Monty Python?
The TV adaptation of Dune Messiah (the first episode of Children of Dune TV miniseries) is AMAZING!
@@neutral_10 Well... the book is pretty short for a Dune series novel. So I can say that Frank Herbert also kind of rushed it.
I know, right? I love that one!
I'd say instead it was solid and close to the original text, which is why I'm using it as my meter stick.
@@pikadasgalaxias306 Herbert needed to get rid of Paul the pave the way to Leto the God Emperor.
@@pikadasgalaxias306 The events of Dune Messiah were supposed to be in the original, novel but it would have pushed the page count too high. So his editor persuaded him to cut out that pat of the novel into a separate book. That's why it's so short. In fact doing so gave him more time to work on that part of the story.
I have no doubt we will see a noticeable percentage of people, much like those who head lined "challenge the universe," get very confused or outright dislike a dark conclusion to this arc of the Dune saga. However, in the total context of the series it has a much greater meaning and needs to be told. I believe Denis Villeneuve clearly sees that and hints at it throughout part one. I just hope and pray powers over the film as a whole don't step in an try to sugar coat the message or change it entirely.
Hopefully they can keep the true ending. Hollywood doesn’t do well with ambiguous heroes.
Yeah, Paul's reactions in part 1 to possible outcomes are not those of triumph but more disgust and horror. If they keep that as Paul's throughline for prescient revelation in the second part they are setting up for a very faithful adaptation for Dune: Messiah.
I believe it won't happen. Denis Villeneuve has actually read Dune, is a fan, and moreover, he doesn't strike me as a director who is driven only by commercial profit and the wishes of the mainstream audience.
To truly present Frank Herbert’s vision, there needs to be at least a fourth film covering Children of Dune.
To truly present Frank Herberts vision, there needs to be a faithful adaptation of the first book. Not simplifying it for the modern audiences, neither changing some "problematic" themes modern western audience might find offensive, but to explore the first novel in all its themes, no matter how offensive or problematic people nowadays would see them, because doing otherwise undermines the whole point of the original novel, as seen in the first part of this movie series.
I honestly cannot see that happening, it's just too esoteric, and frankly I think seeing Paul burned down may be sufficient for a modern audience without need to expand on it...
Absolutely not. Children of Dune should be a TRILOGY.
I think it would work well as a series even moreso than the prior installments
maybe the third will cover both, like the 2nd miniseries. it should be 3 hrs+ long, but so what, as long as part 2 is BIG (and it looks so).
Dune Messiah is actually a rough book to read. I felt it lacking at first, but now I'm reading Children of Dune and now I'm understanding that Frank Herbert was working with Big ideas. He has a grand plan and only by reading and accepting that this is not a heroes tale makes the Books deeper and more intriguing. He flips ideas on their heads and make his audience question themselves. Frank Herbert was way ahead of his time.
Big idea: "The first book sold millions... what else can we do with this to milk it?"
My little nerd heart is all a flutter since hearing there could be a 3rd movie based on Dune Messiah. I agree that it won’t be liked by “normies” but I really hope it gets made 🤞
I hope they learn the lesson of the corruption inherent in power that trapped Paul ! Herberts real lesson is that humanity needs to awaken and learn to think and act for themselves rather nan rely upon others to do the job for them. Just luck at the corruption and waste of opportunity inherent in dicators and elected " populist" politicians that are leading the world into totalitarianism this very day! Both Dictatorships and Democracy are just two sides of the failed coin.
The fans are the core audience anyway. Let the normoids REEEEE all they please.
I dont know, the two films while good, are pretty normie friendly. I bet the Messiah adaptation will be no different.
I was a teenager/early 20 something when I read Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, and God Emperor. I found it intriguing how Paul and Leto II were both champions of humanity and genocidal tyrants and didn’t categorize easily. I liked Herbert’s skepticism of heroes and saviors, and how the ‘Golden Path’ was also the ‘Bloody Path’.
I don’t think I am *so* different from the rest of America, so I think it Villeneuve pulls it off right and relatively faithfully, other people will be intrigued the ‘evil hero’ and ‘benevolent tyrant’ that Paul and Leto II were. There’s a lot more interest and fandom for sci-fi and fantasy than there was twenty+ years ago, and I think audiences are ready for fresh things that break Hollywood’s cynical mold.
Nice summary. Not even the Kwizatz Haderach can save himself from his own fate. I think there is enough by the end of the story to at least make it a bittersweet ending, for the larger group of characters anyway. With that said, Alia and Idaho are really gonna have to bring it.
Normies will also lose their minds when they find that technically speaking, Jason Mamoa’s character is the main one in this series.
"Either you die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain." Nolan's "The Dark Knight" got the message across pretty well.
If you go back further to Greek Myths you see it plenty.
Jason lost the favor of the Olympians after mistreating Medea(not going into details). While he did win back his throne he gave it to his son, and died a bum in the rotted hull of the Argo.
That deconstruction causes a ton of book readers to bounce off book 2, I imagine a movie would do the same. But I hope we get it, because thats the only way we will get children of dune, or my fav, god emperor.
God Emperor, while a great book, is pretty much unfilmable.
@@ANonymous-mo6xpthats wat every one says at 1st. Dune was thought so but its being shown to be doable!
I have a feeling with how Denis is placing the puzzle pieces for Dune Messiah, audiences will have a better idea that Dune Part 2’s ending will not be a happy one. Even when I read the book, I saw an unexpected dark outcome, yet I did not foresee how devastating Paul’s reign would be till going through Messiah. But with hindsight at his disposal, I think audiences will understand that what happens after Dune Part 2 will be a darker path. But they won’t anticipate the tears.
I've been saying this exact thing for the last few months. However as a fan, it would feel incomplete ending with Messiah. They have to do Children of Dune at least since it complete's Paul's story arc. Ideally, they can end the series at God Emperor of Dune which "ends" the Atreides Saga.
Messiah was depressing. But it made sense. It was raw, and accurate (how things would realistically play out given the circumstances). I just hope it's good enough to justify more movies. I want that God Emperor on the big screen! And those Honored Matres with their [meow] magic and ninja kicks!
What Villenueve achieved with the first movie was already amazing. Dune was written so long ago and is built on so much inner monologue that doesn't lend itself well to film adaptations. Perhaps Messiah can still be a movie, it's short enough, but Children of Dune would probably benefit from an Episodic Series treatment like the low budget Scifi 2003 one. A God Emperor series would be especially difficult too, but it might work. It doesn't have the same problem GoT has because the source material is already complete.
Dune Messiah was already very well (and pretty faithfully) done in the TV series "Frank Herbert's Children of Dune".
The Books Must Flow! We should be able to get the entire series. These Books are Masterpieces and the story is never ending. Thank you Elaine for this video. It is one of your finest.
Be careful in what you wish for...
nothing tops the first book
@@user-fx5cd4px3k Nothing else comes close. Read Dune full stop.
I think Herbert felt very strongly that heroes and saviors were dangerous and led to disaster, so he made the book a tragedy. IMO the change in tone is too jarring; it just didn't make sense for Paul to just "let stuff happen" to him when he had been so resourceful before. It would be an opportunity for a screen adaptation to add back some of Paul's agency. But good adaptations are rare.
@@atomsRnot4717 Which book? Dune was not a tragedy. Messiah can be argued as such. In my view Paul decided his best option was to not play, and instead become the voice of caution and resistance.
I liked Dune Messiah. Its subversion is done right.
What I see is a classic hero story who loses everything and then finds new people to call his own and tear down those that wronged him and achieving victory from his point of view…. Only to slam into a wall of reality that shows not everything is hunky-dory by the end, in fact they’re arguably worse. And it’s absolutely beautiful to see
Pretty sure I as an avid Dune fan would hate any version Villeneuve made.
I also think he would struggle with Dune Messiah as there won't be any dominant, good, noble, superior female character for him to distort into the main protagonist.
He would likely have to make Alia the protagonist and twist her entire storyline to be one of 'conflicted' yet resistant to Paul's tyranny.
The only good thing about V's Dune movies is that they may have sparked a little interest in the books for a new generation. But I doubt the bland movie snore-fests would lead to a surge in book sales.
The worst thing about V's involvement is that he has ruined the chances for a great Dune production for the next entire generation. No way is a good director going to redo the project for at least 30 years.
I don't even care that Dune 2 has been pushed back. I'll still go see it because I have to. But I know I will clench my teeth all the way through as he has Chani sneering down at Paul barking orders at him for the whole movie and Paul acting like a lost child taking direction from her.
And, lol, look at the shot at 02:09 why are the majority of Fremen left handed? Paul is holding his Crysknife in his right hand but if you look at the crowd, it's clearer at the back, most are holding their knife aloft in their left hand.
Why do you think the left hand is dominant within the crowd of Fremen?
@@agesflow6815 I don't remember the book saying most Fremen were left handed.
I think non-readers could root for Duncan Idaho and believe that he will turn out to be a positive character in the end. And as hope, here are the twins.
I think people have more depth than you give them credit for. Many of the best and most well-received movies from our history have had less than conventional story arcs. And as Dune is meant for a more mature audience than Star Wars or the Marvel universe, I think it will be well received so long as they stay with the source material the way Frankeln Herbert envisioned it.
It may take time for that unconventionality to be appreciated, such as what happened with John Carpenter's The Thing.
You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Johnathan Nolan
The Dark Knight
People tend not to forget this classic.
Children of Dune should be a TRILOGY.
Concise and brutally honest, great essay!
This is why i was so disgusted with the woke media critics who, upon seeing the first *Dune* trailer back in 2020, IMMEDIATELY attached the "White Savior" trope to Herbert's masterful arc.
Your description brings back the painful memory of "The Red Wedding" for me cuz I'd was invested in the 'Hero Son's Journey." I almost quit watching GoT cuz i was shattered emotionally. And why season 8 of GoT angered the whole world.
Human history is not a collection of fairy tales..well done.
I always loved Dune Messiah as it does a lot for worldbuilding - you get Tleilaxu, gholas, stoneburners, mentions of the Ixian Confederacy, Guild Navigators, etc. However, I feel if they do Messiah, they should do Children of Dune, as the DM ending is just too bleak. It doesn't get much better, of course, but at least CoD ends on a more final note, with Paul's story at its real (and wonderfully metaphorical) end, Alia and Duncan going through their whole thing, and Leto II coming into play. Sure, it teases GEoD, but that's something you can just let the audience imagine, especially since the time jump is huge before that book. The SciFi miniseries wasn't bad (not great, but not bad), so it's not like there isn't precedent.
Of course, given DV's slash and burn techniques when it comes to adaptation, his Dune Messiah film is likely to be 20 minutes long. Probably won't have Paul comparing himself to the Funny Moustache Man, either. That would definitely confuse audiences who are there to see Chalamet and Zendaya giggling at each other.
In the books (And in the hindsight that comes with reading them) it becomes obvious that because of Paul's precience he knows how and why Chani is going to die as well as everything that is going to happen in the future. He chose to save humanity over his and his families suffering and eventual deaths. Herbert has probably created the saddest series of books ever written. (But so worth the read!)
the Barbie fandom is not mentally prepared for stuff this deep
Let them cope, seethe and dilate. If they bad-mouth Lisan Al Gaib, we shall spill their water upon the sands. Bi-lal kaifa!
I would definitely have agree since you have be able look past surface and see deeper modifications and consequences of Paul Muad-deb actions. And how his children shape future of Duneverse.
That's the truth
This Barbie fan is READY for this story. Let's not fall into black and white thinking, or in this case Pink and Sand? haha
People can like both Yo!
I'm only at the start of Messiah but (based on what spoiler I've unfortunately heard already) Star Wars prequel fans will experience some deja vu. I just hope they'll know which story came out first.
Unlikely. When the first Dune movie happened, my friends and I were thrilled and went as a group. Unfortunately, he had to bring his wife, we nobody likes. She's the type who has to feel superior to everyone and fancies herself a whitty person. She said it was just going to be a boring Star Wars rip off. Both of us explained that Dune books came out first. So she proclaimed that nobodys ever heard of it. We explained its up there with Lord Of The Rings, so she said clearly Star Wars did it better.
Messiah is the completion of Pau's story and sets up the (necessary?) evil of Leto II's reign. I also worry they will change the story of Dune Messiah to be more acceptable.
I am hopeful that the underlying meaning of the tale being told will be understood by most of the movie goers. In this day it is possible to see a film over and over again thus allowing different interpretations to be reached then changed as a deeper understanding of the story is attained.
I knew it was took much to hope for the full original saga but damn I was hoping to at least get to Children of Dune.
I typically see the original saga is being broken up into two parts, the rise of Maud’Dib being “the cause” ending with COD and then everything after being “the effect” of walking the golden path.
As a fan id love to see Messiah adapted. It could be an engaging political drama tied to the trap of prescience.
Many will dislike the whole hero turns out to be terrible, but at least this time we can point out that this was a decision by the books themselves rather than some prideful director that decided to dunk on the hero for glory points.
Precisely why it needs to be made. The House of Atreus must show the rebirth of tragedy; this all isn't something George Lucas invented. And in retrospect it'll make the first two parts richer and more meaningful still.
Excellent analysis. I remember first reading Dune Messiah as a teenager, and being absolutely heartbroken by it; for a young man raised one heroic narratives and underdog stories it was a shocking reversal, and I admit that I hated the book at first and didn't even want to finish it. But as you've discussed here, it contains vital lessons, and I have only appreciated it more and more on rereads.
I'm honestly not confident anyone can make it palatable for a mass audience; to be blunt, I just don't think the majority of people have the desire to grapple with such difficult themes, certainly not in movies, that most accessible and comfortable of media. The Matrix: Reloaded comes to mind as much milder version of a film challenging the happy ending of it's predecessor, and the backlash was harsh. But if anyone could do it, it would be Villneuve, and maybe he will find an audience exhausted by year after year of the saccharine superhero stuff and ready for deconstruction of the tropes they've absolutely beaten to death. If it hits just right, it could be an amazing inflection point not just for sci-fi, but for film itself as a medium, finally putting simple hero tales to bed and bringing more challenging material to mass audiences.
So at least the Messiah will have Dune fans and also DV fans, which are also quite a lot.😊
Fantastic analysis.
I don't think non-series readers have any idea what they're in store for...
Even the Sci-Fi series radically softened the Dune Messiah portions of their Children of Dune series.
I hope you're wrong, I hope that given the modern zeitgeist, and the shift down and away from "noble bright" superhero movies is sufficient to punch home. I genuinely think most viewers will appreciate the penny when it drops! I think there's definite potential to see cinema get shaken up, and audiences given a proper story with real depth and meaning.
I think the dynamic complexity will go down quite well, though while I think the story will match elements of the American zeitgeist, I think Messiah will go down very well in the larger more dystopia friendly audience in Europe. I am extremely hopeful, and my faith in people might be unreasonably high where this is concerned! 😅
The classic hero's journey has been subverted countless times until now. I think modern audiences can deal with it all right.
Book 2 was my favorite of the series, I'm excited that it will be made to a movie (again), that's fantastic.
May i assume you guys won the copyright nonsense claim ? Loved hearing the music back .
We didn't win it but someone did because it went away
@@NerdCookies sweet
Excellent analysis, as always!!
I always saw Dune Messiah as an inbetween, never knew what really to think of it. In Dune we saw the rise of Paul, In Children his demise, so Messiah could be described as the effort to stabilize the empire against all of the out- and inside forces. Paul saw the future of humanity and the path to survive, but he was too scared to take it, possibly leaving his legacy in devastation, strengthen by the fact that he loses his sight and his wife. He gives up. But that can simply not be the end of this franchise, Children is part of the story. As the Preacher he wants to humanize Paul , his son makes the decision he could not take by walking the Golden Path, ensuring humanity's survival.
For the readers of all the books Messiah and Children is important because a complete non- Paul reason, the start of the Duncan Idaho legendary
I don't believe the full path was Paul's to follow. He did not have Leit's memories, but Leto II did. So the full path needed both their guidance. Paul didn't have the knowledge necessary and he knew it.
I love the ending of the TV miniseries where Leto II goes to the desert to talk to the Preacher...
Paul didn't lose his wife. Irulan survived. Paul lost his concubine.
Paul wasn't scared, he just didn't want to go that way, as he told Leto in the desert. Unlike Alia and the twins, Paul was still too human to be willing to give up his humanity.
"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe."
-A hero of his own story
The greatest criminal mind of our time!
@@RicardoGaspariniLage And rightful ruler of Australia
@@thomriley1036 Otisburg resident 4lyfe!
@@VoodooV1 Otisburg?!
@@napinthesun That's my personal favorite book of the original 6.
The books are so simple and yet so complex Herbert was a literary genius
Sorry, half way through Dune Messiah so I'm gonna have to come back to this video as to not spoil my first readthrough🧡
Just wanted to give that like and comment for the all seeing algorithm😋
Thanks for the comment!!!
o7 Get to reading. DUNE is the very first space sci fi that I ever read. It was a slog at times, but presented some fascinating ideas, at odds with the conventional morality of society, and I loved it for it.
Nobody ever seems to pick up on the other theme that Frank Herbert was concerned with. The trap of prescience. Regardless of whether Paul is a good or bad charismatic leader, he is able to see the future, and every possible path into the future, and knows that there is only one path that avoids the full extinction of the human race but still involves untold horror and genocide. So he has a choice, back away from that one path and damn the human race to extinction or reluctantly embrace the inevitable holy war that will lead to 61 billion deaths. He chooses the lesser of two evils but ultimately is haunted by what is enacted in his name and ultimately removes himself. It is his son Leto II who will complete the journey started via his Golden Path (and anyone familiar with all of Herbert's books rather than just the first two will get that).
I watched part one again, tonight. With a friend whom I thought would be able to understand it....she didn't. She, and many like her watch too much 'shorts' she saw the trailer for part 2 and said, yeah that looks great! I replied, you watched part 1 before and lost the plot after 30 minutes. It's sad, this film was a difficult one to translate from book to movie and it worked so well!
As for Dune messiah, unless you've been through the books, the title alone would throw you off! It's very subvertive. I do think though that people who watched part 1 and 2 but never read the books would come away from the cinema not feeling disappointed! Part 1 has already showed Paul path with the visions and his mother's glances.....if they paid attention. ...unlike my friend!😑
As much as I would love a faithful and cerebral adaptation of Messiah, I just can't believe Hollywood would allow it to happen. It seems to me that Denis is a huge Dune fan and has even stated that he really wants to adapt Messiah, but I just can't believe a Hollywood studio would let him do it faithfully. "Hurr durr the people want epic battles". I suppose that could be dealt with pretty easily though by having flashbacks to Paul's Jihad, which would then emphasise to the normies how much devastation he has brought to the known universe. Also, I really want to see how Jason Momoa tackles the ghoa version of Duncan!
If they ever get to Godemperor of Dune, I hope the cast James McAvoy, again. I think he did a great job playing Leto II in the TV series. And it would certainly please the fans (and the ladies).
There's not much about Leto the Sandworm to "please the ladies".
@@Shan_Dalamani : Maybe not the sandworm, but before he made the transformation.
Though... I think James McAvoy could even make the Worm attractive... in a way.
They kind of covered some of the results of the fanaticism of the Fremen in 1984's version when they were using Paul's name "Muad'Dib" as the killing blow. If they do go dark it might still pay off but not to the degree Empire Strikes Back did.
Lady, I very much enjoy your insights. Congrats!
Like messiah honestly didn’t surprise me. By the end of Dune, and honestly throughout parts of Dune, I could already see what Paul was becoming. And by the end of book one I was like this is not a good guy and he is not a hero. So the fact that when Messiah was released, that people hated it so much kind of shocks me because it’s all in book one, if you pay attention, but I don’t think general audiences will like that. Like I’m really excited to see the second Dune movie but I’ve been hearing all sorts of stuff and I won’t know until I see it but them saying Chani will know that the prophecy is crap and all that makes me mad because in the book she never ever questions it. It’s just such a huge change, especially to her character but general audiences are going to want woman badass main character and Chani is already bad ass and a warrior and her and Paul are my least favorite characters lol.
But I’m a woman myself and I just feel that it takes away so much from the story when it’s Paul story to have certain deviations. But as of right now I’m only going by articles and haven’t watched any videos with dune spoilers for the second movie. I hope they skip over a lot of the whole love story plot because that was something I really liked about the books, Was that a lot of it was glossed over by Herbert intentionally but you got the theme of it.
Dune is super complicated. Honestly I’m excited about the battle scenes but if anyone leaves that theater thinking Paul is the good guy then I’m just going to be totally confused because the end of the book completely subverts the heroes journey but like I said there’s hints all throughout it that Paul is not a good guy and not a hero. He’s a coward in messiah. The only time I ever saw him is slightly redeemable was when he was the preacher in children. He made it so Leto had to bear the burden because Paul was selfish. He gets called a tragic character, and honestly all the characters in the book are tragic. But with Paul, his arrogance is his undoing in a lot of ways.
I’d love to see them do children and god emperor though.
I think it could have more mass appeal if the other main character arc is highlighted. It would also add a different 'color' perhaps to the storeytelling. I now want to go back and re-view the SyFy series - it has been a long time.
Awesome! Thanks for the video :):)
Im a huge fan of the books and I dont wanna be disrespectful towards the new movies since some aspects like soundtrack, imagery and costume design are good and people worked for it. So Im gonna phrase it like this: Imo those movies are a very brave iteration of the saga for leaving huge logical gaps within the story and the characters. The emphasis is purely on being an empty, but visually appealing blockbuster in fear of the audience being too shallow to understand a book oriented version or being too overwhelmed by the thought of creating such a version.
Almost every single page of Frank Herberts books contained some wisdom, some philosophy or something to learn. There was always a logical, scientific, mystical, psychological, religious etc rigor in his dune books, but none of that can be found in the latest movies, its even the opposite.
Its another version, another try to grasp the saga, therefore at least that aspect should be praised. But I dont think leaving most logic and content out is a better directorial choice than trying to fill the project with content by sticking to the books "heart". Yes, there will always be huge gaps between books and their movie/Tv adaptations, but former projects like the old movie or the miniseries die sooo much better by at least trying. But what so I know? Maybe it sold out well and that was the goal.
My little sister and I read Dune and loved it. Then we read Dune: Messiah and we both came to the conclusion that Paul had become a butthole. Later we found out that Paul becoming a butthole was pretty much the entire point Frank Herbert was trying to make. Lol
The Dune epic is so great. Herbert was a genius.
I think the speculations oh how Dune Messiah will be received by the mainstream audience are on point. Speaking frankly (or maybe Frank-ly...hehe), the average person doesn't have the contemplative nature or the forms of analytical intelligence necessary to grasp Herbert's underlying ideologies. If the films followed the books, I think they would lose a significant portion of the filmgoing audience.
I understand the want for a mindless, satisfying escape when going to see a film - I like those too. But there is also room for more intellectually challenging fare, especially when wrapped in the complete sci-fi bad-assery of something like the Dune series. Unfortunately, I don't think the majority of the filmgoing audience would agree. We've seen the truth of this in the past, where a complete and utter masterpiece like Blade Runner had a mediocre box office showing and took decades to rise to the level of regard that it enjoys now - basically because audiences at the time were expecting Star Wars + Raiders Of The Lost Ark.
Anyway, I"M ready for the darker, more intricate chapters of the Dune saga.
I believe that's exactly why they picked Denis. His work on Sicario is perfection in subversion. The perfect reference for the character type for the next version of Paul. And what Denis can do with that. Audiences will love it
I think it's a mistake to stop at Dune Messiah. It leaves too much unresolved, and ending on that note, will put off newcomers to the saga/genre. The book is important to the saga, but it is a bridge to the next two books, in my opinion. He (or someone) needs to follow up with Children of Dune at a minimum, but preferably God Emperor.
Nerd Cookies, thank you, thank, thank you a million times for this video. These are my thoughts, exactly. Very well done.
I mean, people apparently struggled to understanded Inception, Dune Messiah is gonna hospitalise people.
Beware the revolutionary, this is a good lesson to remember from Dune, but also when looking back on human history
I just hope Villie can pull off part 3.
Frank Herbert's DUNE is a book that describes our present. I think those who are open to that may appreciate Frank's message while those who cannot may be turned off by DUNE MESSIAH. I'm in dismay, seeing how so many people are divided, thinking that such-and-such leader will provide all the answers and salvation, never realizing that nothing is being done to help them. Other literary properties I'd like to see would be the HYPERION series by Dan Simmons and THE FOREVER WAR by Joe Haldeman. I would also hope, if they are produced, that they made with the same care and preservation of their intended messages as Denis is doing with DUNE.1
Having not read the novels but have seen both of the movies. I believe the director does a great job in showing us how Paul struggles with the upping coming holy war when he ascends. Paul understands that billions will die way before it even happens. So if you go into the third movie with that, understanding that that was ultimately going to be the outcome, I think it shows how we as people have to make choices and decisions that are very difficult and sometimes it doesn't work out he knew it was all fabricated and what the outcome would be yet. We are destined to walk down the path that we do. It's crazy because you think You have decisions but you don't
I’ve read all the Dune books and was quite surprised it doesn’t follow the heroes journey and doesn’t have much of a happy ending. I still enjoyed the books, they kept me on my toes.
I to think there will be a large drop off with casual fans with Dune Messiah and the rest of the books in the series. Most will be expecting something similar to Star Wars where the heroes are built up in each succeeding movie instead of tearing themselves down.
Great video!
I hope this comes out sooner, rather than later!
people will like it. They already liked the first two movies, and I never thought that would happeb. The books are already hard to read, but once you get into them, you cant let them go. They are so reflexive and big. It feels like the story among stories
If people freak out over Messiah, us fans will be like; you clearly weren't paying attention were you? All the signs were there!
I think that your assessment will be quite prophetic. And I agree that it will not be uplifting in the traditional sense of heroism. But it will be in line with the ideal of a sacrificial hero whose goal is, in a certain sense, a type of salvation.
Paul Atreides did what had to be done, in order that his children and future people will be born, live, be raised in such a way that they, too, did what had to be done.
All to ensure the survival and evolution of the great ungrateful, ignorant masses.
I think Dune Messiah have the potential for becoming a really great movie. It’s storyline is reminiscent of many Shakespeare plays. It’s not just hero stories that resonate with an audience. Tragedy is an ancient genre that has captivated audiences for many centuries. It’s maybe not typical for Hollywood movies - but I have confidence that the current dune crew can pull it off, even with commercial success.
Love the films, salty about the lack of the spacing guild, but the message was nailed. That’s what’s important for me and would’ve been for Herbert. That said, I still want an actual in-depth, high-budget series that’s willing to present everything in the books and respects the audiences intelligence enough to let them piece it together. Extra points for leaving it off at chapter house
I wish he would do children of dune it's perfect ending to the first 3 books. Ending on dune Messiah is odd since it's a set up for book 3. People complain that part 1 was set up how do U think people feel when the conclusion is set up to a movie we will never see.
I’m a casual when it comes to Dune but when I heard about what happens in second, I’m excited to see how it plays out.
I just want to see Part 2 in a timely manner
A Herbert interview had a strong remark along the lines of 'the rising of a charismatic leader? Watch out!'
Well me I would hope he goes all the way to Chapterhouse: Dune, that is a lot of films but to see the full saga play out would be amazing. I agree the public might hate Dune Messiah everyone wants a happy ending and this isn't it. People love to look at the heroes as a role model i.e. The defenders of the Alamo were they heroes or invaders the Alamo was in Mexico so the Defenders we Invaders but people see them as heroes.
I hope that Hollywood doesn't put a happy ending on Dune 3, like they did with the Lynch film. I am sure Villeneuve will follow the book. With carefully made trailers it will do just fine at the box office.
I get that the point is supposed to be don't follow a charismatic leader but that leader and his actions do in fact lead to saving humanity, the point is even further muddied when his son does worse things but ends up ensuring humanities survival
Part 2 won't be in theaters until March. Part 3 hasn't been made yet. Can we wait?
Ive always felt that Villeneuve had to adapt the third book as well to make it a complete story. If not the larger point of Herbert's novels is lost. What made the story special compared to the typical hero's journey trope, was that we got to see how the hero rules after their ascension. And experience the ramifications of his decisions generations later.
Any chance if you doing a video on foundation?
I don’t think there is much complexity left at the end of part 2. It’s spelt out and explained to the point where I’m surprised they didn’t also hand out flyers at the cinema, saying “Paul is not a good guy!”.
Very excited for Dune Messiah. Dune pt. 1 set the stage to do Dune Messiah. If pt. 2 continues to make it clear that Paul's quest for vengeance coupled with his near deification can NEVER end well … they'll be ready for Messiah. We've had enough complex heroes over the years that I think people can be ready for Messiah when it comes. One or two callous lines in the right places could be all that's necessary. I trust that Denis Villeneuve will lay the groundwork for it.
Agreed children of Dune needs to be Created and put into 2 🎬 Movie's at Least
I think audiences will find it a bummer. But, the trilogy may make a great cinematic commentary on the devastating pitfalls of the ultimate hero/god who is the ultimate political/religious Tyrant (at least until you know who).
Just started reading Messiah a few days ago after not reading it for years. I'm digging the coincidence of this vid. Thanks!
The key will be how Part 2 ends. If it goes a la Lynch with Paul.being vested in Imperial robes, then the audience won’t be ready. If it ends with the Fremen being dispatched across the Galaxy to conquer the other Houses and wreaking havoc, and we get to see some of that destruction, then we’ll have some preparation. Maybe it will be a long end credit.
Deconstruction is fine, as long as you set it up. Cheers Elaine. Good vid.
I think it all depends where the movie ends. Just because the books end in a certian spot dosen't mean the movie will.
I am what you might call a normie.
And my only introduction to dune was David Lynch's version. Which I am quite fond of.
However, this version has been most intriguing.
And I do know that things change for Paul.
But honestly I am looking forward to something slightly different. Something that is closer to the books. So that when I do pick up the books after watching the second part. I can have the actors in my mind as I'm reading it.
I don't think we will see this part of dune as much as I would love to see it on the big screen
I'm afraid too it will risk to disappoint most of the public. After all by the past I was disappoint by the fact that Paul rise to the rank of emperor the became worst than before insted of the opposite, it takes me much time before accept this fact explore most profondly the history of the Duneivers to be able to see the true happy ending of this grand franchise. And I have good reason to believe that most people will not have enough dedication to go foward after their expectation would be inevitably shatter.
Oh boy I hope Paul finds some gravitas. Also I hope they get Lady Jessica correct. The was too emotional in the first movie. Go figure the actress openly admitted she never read the book.
Frank's idea that we can't have a "messiah" might have been groundbreaking at the time. However, it feels overused in recent years with shows like Dexter, Game of Thrones, The Sopranos, and Breaking Bad. Occasionally, it's refreshing to witness the hero triumph, like a satisfying Lord of the Rings conclusion. As a fan of the book, I'm definitely not watching after the second movie.
Tony was a never a hero in Sopranos or Walter from Breaking Bad. Game of Thrones example fits your argument
If it doesn’t make money. Children of Dune will never see the silver screen