Christianity Rebukes the Powerful
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- čas přidán 11. 08. 2021
- July Patron only video looks at how part of how Christ fills the hierarchy of the world is by attacking the powerful for not participating in connecting that which is above with that which is below, not answering need, being hypocrites and not seeing the spiritual significance of their outer forms.
Because the question of authority and revolution really riled up many people, I decided to make the July Patron only video public.
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I agree with Mr. Pageau. It's our job as Christians who are rich in faith and hope to invest in those seeking purpose and the hopeless.
Maybe we also need to be a little more clear on who is asking and who isn't.
@@IsoMorphix An interesting thing from the Medieval period was that people believed everyone had a Sphinx asking a question. So everyone is asking in some way.
@@anothercat1300 then the answers need to be sensitive to the style of the question.
Very well said and MUCH needed reminder
@ars sanitas that's the remainder, the fringe. It represents how the "remainder" cannot be included. Like a scapegoat. So, the "rest" of the sabbath or jubilee accounts for that period of instability in the cycle.
When Paul speaks of the stronger brother aiding the weaker brother, these terms and relationship are more akin to ability and potency. It is the heavenly role of the able to aid the unable in their inability.
To whom much is given much shall be required. It is more blessed to give than receive. Thank you for explaining the paradox of hierarchy and how the rich show gratitude by caring for the poor. Comforting, encouraging, & convicting. Lovely ❤
But the trickle down effect dont work that way does it. They try to force feed us a dog s**t sandwich while taking all the cake & keeping there own, such is abundance kept for a rainy day lol. Lets call that depopulation via malnutrition? How many government mandated diet outlines are actually good for you pushing high carb less meat more sugar, now we have veganism to promote synthetic human food. Things like huel promoting feed bags for human cattle? Universal human food? (Oops im not aloud to be that much of a critical thinker in the NWO) ;^)
@@GOATGamerProSticks I think your observation reflects how fallen and unhealthy the hierarchy is. It should upset people that former Presidents become millionaires after their time in office, because it's shows a perversion of what is proper. Far cry from Jefferson having to sell his library to maintain his home.
@Frank Blazkiewicz Hypocrisy, Nepotism & Shillism cant be cancelled while life exists. Its hard to achieve the best version of yourself in a pay to play system where the house always wins right. And that over populated system demands the bill. The most virtuous man could have been considered to be Bigfoot the fruit & nut forager with the smallest carbon footprint lol. What chance do we have on a planet already experiencing crop failure from non stop floods, droughts & forest fires with no recovery time? We seem to be trying to adopt the chinese system of think mandated happy thoughts backed up by hear no, speak no, see no evil but break all the rules in the media black out like ignorance isnt a silent culler, how far can a planet full of moronic yes men actually get? Ide have to insult my own intelligence at every turn to think we havent all been writen off as landfill products in carbon tax on steroids to meet the Georgia Guide Stones outline of 500'000'000 max pop for supposed world wide equilibrium, if cascade failure of ecosystem stops at that point lol. If jesus saves is that the ticket to ride? The noble lie, the great deception is china the Great Red Dragon of Old. The great reset seems like yet another wishfull thinking pipe dream in a polarised melting world with all paradigms known to earth set to shift. It dont take a genius to put the signs together. You will own nothing & be happy about it? There reign will be shorter than they know, we are all in this together right, one out all out? Ive said enough if you have doubts to my sanity after this your not alone, open your eyes to wide your a wide eyed nut case, is that a step up from a fully qualified know nothing ;^).
Ive seen to much to hope for a future this vid sealed it for me filled in my blanks (Goes presentation film) Microplastics in the eco system act as synthetic estrogen giving rise to trans traights? We sealed our own toxic fate long ago. (Sorry for the cryptic rant the truth shall set us all free such is symbolism & interpretation?)
@Frank Blazkiewicz Internal & External reflection is exhaustive in my eyes. Then ultimately a pointless distraction of endless procrastination. Just like the thinking man statue, what does he ponder Paradox & Futility? I just want closure. (Maybe ill find it on the otherside because earth is hotting up if you catch my drift)
@@GOATGamerProSticks What exactly do you mean when you say "it's hard to achieve the best version of yourself"? How would you describe the "best version of yourself" in more detail? I don't mean the abstract "best version of oneself" - I mean what you, personally think of when you conjure up the image of your best version of *your* self?
The Lord of Spirits Podcast has led me into the room of Orthodoxy and I think Jonathan is locking the door behind me lol. Great stuff, as always.
There are many more doors yet to open friend :)
Lord of Spirits is so good.
I'm a new listener, and new to Orthodoxy so it's been extremely helpful.
It's also very cool that I get to hear from Father Stephen in person every Sunday at Divine Liturgy.
Very nice of you to upload unlisted for the guy that complained, i will watch this
What a character JP is. Hats off.
I was small among my brothers,
and youngest in my father’s house;
I tended my father’s sheep.
2 My hands made a harp,
my fingers fashioned a lyre.
3 And who will declare it to my Lord?
The Lord himself; it is he who hears.[b]
4 It was he who sent his messenger[c]
and took me from my father’s sheep,
and anointed me with his anointing oil.
5 My brothers were handsome and tall,
but the Lord was not pleased with them.
6 I went out to meet the Philistine,[d]
and he cursed me by his idols.
7 But I drew his own sword;
I beheaded him, and removed reproach from the people of Israel.
Touches on the "mystery of the twofold anointing" that Dr. Patitsas talks about. The same mark that brings us into kingship, into priesthood, also makes us a sacrifice to our neighbor and a tithe to God.
An historical example of rebuking the powerful...
I did a short course on protest/rebellion in Early Modern England at uni and remember one where the common folk were aggrieved at grain prices being too high on account of the land owner taking the grain and selling it abroad for a profit. They marched on the ships in the harbour, took the grain by force, and then ... returned it to the land owner.
Initially struck me as be a bit dumb, but on reflection it's quite a smart move. I don't know how much that was influenced by Christian notions of hierarchy etc, and how much by strategic / legal concerns, but they were no doubt operating within a Christian world view.
I've tried to find a reference to it online and can't 😭🙈 perhaps it's too obscure a reference.
(Edited for typos)
Wow that’s fascinating I hope you find the reference.
That is a really interesting concept, same
Bless you, Mr. Pageau!
You are a regular blessing to me. You help me to make sense of so much without ever claiming my faith for your own. You are ever pointing me heavenward even as the light blinds my benighted eyes.
Jonathan, for me this is my favorite video of yours. I learned so much with this one. I'm going to watch it again. Thank you.
Nice Job Jonathan.
I love the way you deal with the tension of being in power and rich toward being in supportive role and poor.
Thank you
Brother. The intro is FIIIIIIIIREEE 🔥
Señor Pageau great Intro.
The story of Jacob fighting God asking for his Blessing shows how that misterious relationship between God and his people work. He ends up giving his blessing but only when you fight till the end, because is only in that fight that you are humbled enough that you will be thankful for the blessing, a fight with God will end up breaking you in the inside, your deepest human support will be broken in the process so you become poor in spirit. Sometimes this fight ends up with the killing of the king with murdering God, but you want to learn and become poor and thankful before dying and accepting that killing the king was wrong and accepting that you actually need the king and you must claim him the king before is too late for your soul.
The name Israel does literally mean "he who struggles with God".
A beautiful breakdown
Struggle doesn't mean slap or physical fight.... struggle in that case is cleaning from the ego thinking. The day you "experience" by yourself the connection with God, following the Scriptures you will understand the real message behind the words...
@@experiencemystique4982 Man, I was part of the occult for quite a while. There is no "behind the words" what the Bible describes it's described in all the levels, Israel means the one who fights with God, wrestles with God, and a fight can be physical, psychological, spiritual even all at the same time, all the levels, not just "one secret meaning behind the words" that occultist talk is not what Jesus was about, he ripped the veil, heaven is open to everyone, you can acces to it from the simplest of understandings, no need to go deep or behind anything...
Saint Francis of Assisi heard from God that he was called to fix his Church, and he started repairing actual buildings, then he focusef on repairing the spiritual aspects of the Church, but those two are not in conflict neither one is more profound than the other, is not thay the spiritual is behind the material, doing the physical work is as important as the spiritual, we are hylomorphic beings we are a composit of spirit and matter, we are both at the same time.
Ora et Labora
Yes. I was thinking recently men do murder Love (Christ), they have done so before and in every generation.
I believe Jonathan's take on "the purpose of the rich" is precisely correct.
I remember having read "Das Kapital" in my 20's, and kind of having understood the argument of "taking the surplus is really taking from the worker." Then again, the counter-argument is that the surplus is the reward for risk and investment. One believes there is a need for redistribution; another believes that capital earnings are fair and just.
Back then I came to believe that both positions are correct, and that the solution is not economic but moral, and is at least as old as Christianity: that everyone may voluntarily provide to those in need, in the measure of our circumstances, and understanding the source of our good fortune, is the solution to the problem of capital that does not require a tyranical government, nor restrictions on the individual's economic capacity.
People who engage in usury and corruption is exactly that! Not capitalism . Law causes the legal plunder... read The Law by Fredric Bastiat
looking forward to ur chat with President Sunday.. I wonder if he'll do a response to this video given that u were probably prompted to make this one by his response to ur earlier one..
Really appreciated you highlighting this perspective. Thanks!
Interesting commentary on the difference between 'law' and 'justice' and how they relate or sometimes don't relate in the world of human interaction.
Love the intro!
This calls to mind Romans 15:1 “the strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak”
It was used by St. john of Kronstadt in an appeal to his city to establish a home for working men and an industrial school for the poor. It’s an example of a man rich by his position in the hierarchy considering the needs of those at the bottom essential to the function of the whole system, and condescending to help them in the same way God does for us all.
I find Pageau interesting and thoughtful, but tbh I'm finding the comment section on this video an enthralling and thought provoking read. Which I'm sure he'd be happy about all the same. Nice!
Well done! Very interesting! Thank you!
I would absolutely love to talk economics with you, one day. I'm in total agreement with the spirit of everything you just said, brother. That said, and I would not advocate "laissez faire capitalism" without explaining what I mean, but I would advise not criticizing it without perhaps knowing what you mean.
Nowhere in Canada or the US, does the government have its hands off the economy, but if it did, we would expect to see far less poverty than we do now. I'm not saying the rich and the poor would be in the proper relationship to each other, if we simply abolished government intervention tomorrow...the world would still be corrupt, and we would still have greed, envy, and other forms of sin.
Austrian Economics focuses on praxeology, which is something I think you would find very interesting if you're unfamiliar. The study of human action shows that people tend to respond to incentives, and the Austrian School very often leads one to conclude that if all exchanges were voluntary, most market exchanges would have mutually beneficial outcomes, and while the rich would continue to get richer, the poor would also continue to get richer.
This is, in my opinion, the most realistic and insightful utopian fantasy one can come up with, but it is still a utopian fantasy. I would contend that if we did not have greed and envy, we would likely have a laissez-faire market economy, but because of greed, politicians appeal to the most envious of the poor, and feed them economic fallacies through the government schooling and TV propaganda systems. Then they use this elaborate deception in order to enrich themselves, by being in bed with the greediest of the rich, war profiteering off the taxpayer dime, regulating fair competition out of existence, committing monetary fraud, and other sneaky schemes. Not only is this greed, disregard for ones fellow man, theft, murder, and fraud, but it is also hypocrisy. The same people preaching: "There's too much inequality and the very rich must be held accountable!", from the political soapbox, are the ones trying to make poor people dependent on government handouts, for the sake of keeping them weak, and generating an excuse to extort money from everybody except the greediest of the rich business people, because they are in on it.
The first time I heard you say "laissez faire", I thought you said "less than fair", and that would have been nearly perfect. An economy should be honest, just, and free. Then there'd be so much prosperity, generosity would come quite naturally. But we have sin, so economies are not honest, just, or free.
If there is one thing the modern 'christian' do not understand it is this. Great video!
Thank you for allowing your intellect flow down ✝️
Those who listen but do not hear are seeking their own confirmation bias, you explained what you meant in detail and succinctly.
That is why HE said, He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
They have blinders on and see only what they want, this generation is being led to punishment.
Also consider the give a man a fish vs. teach a man to fish.
Christ also fed all that were gathered, I'm not saying that's bad. A person that starves to death cannot learn to fish, but perhaps there are gifts more powerful than basic sustenance.
(Also, gift and charity implies consent, not a coerced rule.)
awesome video as always Jonathan. but then when should christians disobey/rebel if ever? or should we just play the holes of accusers when the ones on top of us fail?
Thank you for sharing your insight!
I like the new intro
I completely agree, always great listening to you. Minor point of contention would be that technically, I’d argue, there is no room for medicine. Since medicine and a sociopolitical system are similar insofar as they are both a response to fix the fallen nature of the world, correct?
Chat with Pres. Sunday!
@@hh8222 I don't think he would be abusive one-on-one.
He’s terrible
@@baroquecat2295 right, never speak to anyone you think is terrible.
PLEASE, do a video on a Kubrick's film. Eyes Wide Shut would be much appreciated
Tithing is a responsibility of man within all strata of hierarchy. It’s core and worth is participatory and voluntary, and therefore integrally connected with individual freedom. The state as an intermediary of charity and the structure of eleemosynary heretical authority represents a disconnection between the highest and lowest.
The Christian orientation towards a functional hiearchy having it's basis in agape is very beautiful. Any thoughts on the inquisition and how people were burned alive for heresy against the church's doctrinal authority? Like Marguerite Porete, who was essentially a Christian mystic, she wrote a book called Mirror of Simple Souls, and she was burned at the stake for it. It's a brutal thing to reckon with but christian history is brutal, and in so many ways completely contradictory to the essential tenets of Christianity.
Mr. Pageau, what does it mean that Christ is in the poor? Matthew 25:40 ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Hold the line Johnathan , Christ is king 👑 and the minions will always attack this concept irrationally if necessary. Thx for your commentary.
Down with capitalism!
Down with communism!
Vive Orthodox agrarian monarchy!
What do we want!
Justice!
When do we want it!
Eventually!
I watched and was really disturbed by the film 1984 last night. Almost couldn’t sleep. It feels like this video is what I need to hear.
Thanks for sharing this insightful video, Jonathan. Reminds me of the Lord's Prayer.
Don’t let the haters get to you Jonathan what you are doing for young people and understanding the story of Christianity is incredible, God bless you and your family
Random question, but have you ever seen the movie Mandy?
Seems like there is a lot of symbolism in it but I just can't piece it together.
Great suggestion!
Just watched the trailer.
Why had I never heard of this? Instead were bombarded with nonsensical Marvel woke garbage.
@@dherman0001 I just got finished watching it and was impressed. I normally don't opt for the horror genre, but this was an exception. It wasn't too overboard that it became incoherent, but I'm not educated enough with symbolism to decode some of it.
If you have time I'd definitely check it out
@@dherman0001 Define woke.
@@darthbakercamelia Typical brainwashed leftist.
@@dherman0001 Define leftist values.
I have struggled with the question of capitalism and Christianity. It seems to be a no-brainer marriage in Protestant evangelicalism, but I'm not so sure.
My sense from this and other places, is that the historic Christian solution is a bit of a via media, and middle way between laissez-faire libertarianism and socialist authoritarianism.. whether this resembles paternalist communitarianism (lived out within familial/economic/political/religious "spheres of loyalty") or not is up to the individual interpreter, I suppose.
Thank you, especially for "not flinching" on how Christ offended people.
Consider NT "hypocrisy" not as a failure to uphold proclaimed ideals, but in terms of its Greek origin meaning "actor." In exposing the Pharisee's failures, Jesus wasn't wanting the religious leaders to shape up-or expecting that they should try. Jesus was exposing that righteousness among men is just a performance-it doesn't come naturally to the flesh. (Had it come naturally, the Law would not have been needed.) The Pharisees were actors-and they knew it!
This is especially powerful considering that the Pharisees and company could be argued to be the most righteous individuals of the most righteous nation on earth (Israel being the unique bearer of God's Law with the Pharisees sitting "in the seat of Moses," as you said). "For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven," Jesus acknowledged. Only God is good.
With the forgiveness of sins (= the crediting of righteousness) at salvation, the performance burden is relieved, and believers are given instead the opportunity of "knowing the one true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent" (John 17:3)-and walking by the Spirit through faith instead of by the flesh through the law. (see Galatians, Romans, James, etc.)
Very well stated!
Now this is wisdom! Blessings to you and yours 🕊
Would be incredibly interesting to hear Jonathan give an analysis of the symbolism in movie "The Lighthouse".
Oh gosh no. haha
It's just sexual perversion, not much more symbolism than that.
@@vituzui9070 sexual symbolism is one of the oldest things ever. I'm sure there's plenty more to it.
@@anothercat1300 Plus it's presented in quite mythic ways. There would be a lot to talk about.
Sounds like Thomas Carlyle’s book Chartism
Jonathan's message about rich caring for the poor is not incompatible with laissez-faire capitalism. Plenty of room within laissez-faire for the rich to be mindful of and care for the poor. People who are rich in a laissez-faire system are free to embrace their proper place in the hierarchy or choose to serve only themselves.
So, the richer you are, the bigger is the responsibility.
@@alfredosaint-jean9660Yes, that's the way I see it
@@gregoryw4662 That is Spider-Man wisdom.
Everyone says their system + Virtue is the way. The problem is how do you accrue virtue. Any system is already concerned with material gain over the pursuit of the good, which is already the problem.
I liked these past few videos which dealt with political implications of Christianity. I have a question, though… could we consider Christianity a socio-cultural organizing principle? The past few videos did not give me the impression that Jonathan was a dirty capitalist or something, but I do see this kind of possibility that a Christian ethic could lead to social systems better than the social systems we live in today. I wonder if capitalism itself is a reason or symptom why Christianity in the West has significantly weakened (did it begin with Protestantism?). Why are cities in the west no longer built around a church or temple, but rather the center of commerce and exchange, i.e. what we call “downtown”? What happened there?
If we envision the revolution as a mere overthrowing of authority nothing will change systematically. New authorities will take charge of that same system. I wonder if the revolution that Marxists want is really a religious one, one that begins with the embodiment of principles of organization which the letter of the law cannot adequately transcribe - principles of organization powerful enough to manifest in civilization and disrupt the materially-driven foundation. We build our lives around exchange and making money (because we kinda have to for the most part) but what if we suddenly changed what we value and why? Would that not be a transformation worth catalyzing? Would that not be a “Christian revolution”?
I don’t know any liberation theologians but I wonder if I am one.
Well capitalism in the right amount is Christian in all honesty. Yes, we need to take care of the poor but in order to do that we first have to help ourselves. What I mean by that is that if we are dependent of others (welfare, parents, free stuff etc) we are a burden to them and to society and are in no position to help anyone. We must first "pull ourselves by our bootstraps" as the saying goes and once that happens and we can take care of ourselves and only then can we muster enough resources to help the poor.
Now I realize that there are certain people that are so fucked up that they can`t just help themselves so to speak. If you are a drug addict with no job, no family and no friends you can`t really do that. So government or private (churches/volunteers/etc) assistance is probably needed in this case.
The problem in modern society I think is that on the one hand you have capitalism going out of control and so you have this rabbit individualism and consumerism. On the other hand you have the left that has this rabbit collectivism and wants to give everyone everything for free which is also very unchristian. In a way I think the West has the worst of both worlds at this moment. Capitalism and socialism shouldn`t be our gods.
Also when government expands religion tends to contract in the sense that government has largely replaced religious communities in providing certain services and has thus slowly kicked us out of the public square. The Catholic church for example used to build schools, universities and hospitals and the secular government has replaced them quite a lot now. I`m not sure we can have Christian politics anytime soon. The right addresses some Christian views and the left addresses none at this point. Neither really covers a true Christian take in my view though.
anarcho socialism yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
This is a great comment! There definitely seems to be a connection between the rise of Capitalism and the loss of Christian values. People only care about success and money these days, and that's not because of "postmodern neo-marxism" but because of Capitalism (something Jordan Peterson is clearly missing in his cultural analysis).
@@karolinasz.141 the right and left wing are two sides of the same coin. Left wing revolutions ultimately devolve into a pseudo-capitalist hellscape and right wing revolutions into a pseudo-communist hellscape. It’s a pendulum between two extremes. Christianity and indeed the Logos Himself as Manifest Truth cuts between all extremes and unifies them in perfection. To think that one or the other is “the truest rival” is naive. Ultimately both paths lead to excesses and consumption of the passions for profit.
@@karolinasz.141 I`m sorry but this is just not true. It might be a factor but it`s not the sole problem. Capitalism had existed for centuries before us and Christianity was fine. Religion for most of the world is also fine today. My country was communist and now is an oligarchy and atheism is still big.
Blaming solely capitalism is just not true. Capitalism has brought a lot of good. It has helped basically destroy child mortality, hunger, absolute poverty and war. It has helped destroy colonialism and conquest for resources. I don`t think God wants us to die in a mud hut by small pox at the age of 30 or in war conquering a spice trade route.
The problem with capitalism is that the West has put it in the center of society instead of God. Capitalism is good and has it`s place just not at the center. The right-wing are not perfect and are somewhat missing the mark but are at least somewhat Christian as opposed to the left that wants to be their own God and would like to see us extinct. They are literally practicing original sin.
You can see this argument very well documented and explained in the book series "Enemies of commerce" by antonio escohotado
Did Jesus give a spiritual justification for the rich to help the poor, or did he suggest that rich people should give away all of their riches and not stay rich because it is a corruption to the soul to care about money more than others?
This is a good question! I think Jesus understood money as an extension of the Ego and, as Jonathan might say, causes the hierarchy to suffer. If it gets in the way, get rid of it.
I don't think he hated money completely, though. He had wealthy women funding his ministry (as did Paul).
@@adamorly2971 Thanks for the reply. I think that makes sense. Money only becomes problematic when it is being worshipped by the individual.
I wouldn't trace money to ego in any direct sense. I think it's far easier to understand the relationship of Christianity to money if you consider the relationship of Christianity to power, for example. Look at the changing of the generally accepted concept of what constitutes a hero, before and after Christ. Before Christianity, a "hero", in the old pagan sense, was someone who was mighty. That's it. Achilles is basically a viking raider born outside of Scandinavia. He is a "burner of cities and violator of virgins". The ancient Greeks hero-worship him because they worship strength. For them, Achilles doesn't need to be what we call "good" to command respect and admiration - for the pagans, might makes right. The very idea that might alone does *not* make right, is quintessentially Christian.
The viking raiders pillage and rape their away across Europe because they see it as their natural right to prey on the weak - and the gods they worship are just like that. You can sum it up as "the weak are meat and the strong do eat". And then the vikings convert to Christianity, stop being ruthless thugs and become heroes in the sense we would define hero today: Their venerated ideal of the warrior shifts from "might makes right" and becomes, in the light of Christ, the Norman knight, who fights for the weak, for women, children and the elderly, for those who cannot fight for themselves.
This is how we see money, too. Nothings wrong with having lots of money, in the same way there's nothing wrong with being strong and brave - the question is only: What do you *do* with all that power? If I am rich, I can use my money like the viking raiders used their strength - or I can bend the knee to Christ Almighty and instead act like one of His knights.
Does it make sense now?
@@Ameretat010 I like your description of how the understanding of a 'hero' has changed over time. I have often thought about this myself. The pagan view of the hero was that of glory in violence, which could not be further from Christ. Unfortunately I feel that some pagan values are seeping back into the social fabric, or rather, they were always there, especially in the circles of the richest who only pretended to be Christian but secretly lived the pagan life. But now the pagan elite is influencing the mainstream through the promotion of pornography in every corner of society and destruction of the sacredness of sex, which is a direct attack at love itself.
So in relation to money. Money itself isn't evil. But if you look at the richest of the rich, they are pagans, not Christians. They have the most power and money, and what do they do? They turn their back on Christianity, because they realise they can get even more if they love themselves more than God. Perhaps this is what Christ was warning us about. Money corrupts the soul. It is clear to see if you analyse the world.
@@karolinasz.141 I think we mostly understand each other, but would like to further clarify what I meant:
"The pagan view of the hero was that of glory in violence"
I think this is true, but not the whole picture. The pagans did not merely worship physical strength - they worshipped power and being better, being "elite" in all its forms: In addition to strength as illustrated by the mighty warrior, they also worshipped intelligence, wealth, beauty, fertility, order and all other sorts of other good things. All of these are good. It's better to be strong than weak, better to be smart than stupid and so on. But mercy is better than tit-for-tat and love is not only better than all - it's literally what holds the world together. Without love, the best we can manage is to "make a desert and call it peace", as the pagan Romans did. In this sense, money is like muscle: You can use it to lift the drowning out of the waters, perhaps even risking your own life by attempting to do so; or you can use it to devour your neighbours, or build monuments to yourself. "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings!" right?
"if you look at the richest of the rich, they are pagans, not Christians"
True - but let me tell you, I live in a very poor country and the sort of paganism you mention is as rampant among the poor, as it is among the rich. Poor people are not necessarily loving people. Let's also remember that it was some "rich jerk" who gave Christ a decent burial. Saint Joseph of Arimathea risked his life, by daring to go to Pilate, to ask for permission to take down Christ's body - Pilate had just crucified Him for treason and Saint Joseph was just a hair's breadth away from ending up on a cross right beside Christ.
"Money corrupts the soul"
I hope I've managed to at least make you consider that perhaps it's not money (or cleverness or any other form of strength) that corrupts the soul, but... well, corruption corrupts the soul and makes one squander the talents one was given as a gift, by the grace of God. We call the source of that corruption, "pride". Money is just a tool. Tools don't corrupt the soul but rather, the more corrupt we get, the more technology we need to hold the world together, as illustrated by the descendants of Cain. Tools are but strength multipliers. In this sense, money (and any other tool) merely reveals what's happening in the soul - after all, there was no money in Eden, yet man still fell to corruption...
Stray not to the right, *nor to the left*, but follow the King's road. :P
I don't think laissez faire is anti Christian, like you said it's the responsibility of people above to care for the ones below, but not the Government
If you have the Government forcing companies to employ social policy, it is not the rich who are morally good, and also policies with good intentions often create incentives with unintended consequences.
Do you think Amazon, Google and other massive companies are being fair and good to their employees, especially the ones earning lowest wage?
@@karolinasz.141 Well I've never worked for them, but from what I've heard they don't sound great. But we don't live in a laissez faire economy, there is a mix of central planning and free market (in this context government subsidies thay are only given to larger corporations).
@@basketweaver1144 Without government regulations companies would be able to do anything they wanted, I doubt that would result in a Christian society.
Cue all the people making comments who are 100% sure they've read the Bible correctly...
Thank you for the video. Can you give us some ways that wealthier orthodox Christians in the west can help the poor?
Thanks
16:35
Competition is a double-edged sword. It's true that it pushes people to do a better job, but in the end, it pushes everyone to work harder, and then work isn't enough, you need status or connections or capital.
Just look at the world record progression for Olympic sports. They start by shaving off minutes, then seconds, then milliseconds. A world-record holder from 1950 wouldn't even make it to the finals today. The competition has weeded out not only those who haven't trained hard enough, but those who haven't trained well, those who haven't had injuries, and even those who were born with the wrong kind of body. Look at swimming. Michael Phelps' body is *strange* -- he has enormously long arms and short legs for his height! That makes him a better swimmer. Look at gymnasts and ice-dancers. The women are young, short and petite (so they can be thrown up in the air), the men are short and broad (since they usually do the throwing!). The most obvious example of them all is men's and women's leagues -- in strength-based competitions such as weightlifting, men can set records that dwarf the women's records, obviously it wouldn't be fair to say to the women "You need to train harder!". The point is, it's not enough to train hard. You can't compete in the top of the sport unless you're born with a body that will match it. In the same way, people who are rich or successful aren't rich and successful only because they work harder than the rest. It simply isn't true that someone who is 6'9 can be a great jockey, anymore than someone under 5' can play basketball. People who succeed in business and politics often fail to account for the hidden advantages that give them the competitive edge.
I don't mean to be defeatist. My goal is to point out both the hubris and cruelty of the mindset of "If he had worked harder and made better decisions, he wouldn't be poor/addicted/divorced/etc." . The reality is, everyone works hard, they don't have a choice. Some people work harder than others. Among the 10% of people that work hard, 10% of them make good choices. Of the 1% that are hard-working and wise, 1% of them are lucky, too. There is hubris in thinking that one is successful because of some special characteristic; other people worked just as hard with what they had. And there is cruelty, since no matter how hard some people work they can't catch up. Now we know there isn't really luck, but God's gifts to us. He gives us much or little, and when we meet Him again, he'll ask us to make an account of what we did. To the one who receives much, much will be required. To the one who receives little, little will be expected. The one who has not, even what he has will be taken from him.
To close this off, I want to suggest that storing up treasure in Heaven may, on occasion, look like "laziness" to people who think of everything in terms of competitive work. It's wrong to raise the bar so high that ordinary people can't dream of measuring up, in much the same way that it is wrong to be lazy. Workaholics are sinning by prioritizing their careers over the people around them.
@anOrnithologist my hobby is writing comments that are too long...
Much of what you say is true - it is folly to pretend like everyone can do everything if they work hard enough. The part about how "It's wrong to raise the bar so high that ordinary people can't dream of measuring up" I don't like that much. Workaholics aren't primarily sinning against other people, but against themselves. If their attention was focused to such a degree, on anything other than work, we'd call that "obsession" and pity them for their tunnel vision. But since their obsession happens to be work, which makes them a lot of money, us non-workaholics, being the envious shmucks that we are, desire that sort of financial power, without realising what horrible price these people are paying for it. Don't envy the obsessed - they are hurting themselves.
This is why I never accrue financial wealth. I am not entrusted it and I am unburdened by it because I am too busy plumbing the depths of the cosmos for meaning and truth to maintain a grounded reality in which I provide practical stewardship. I'd rather not have the money, at this time.
You won't find meaning in the Cosmos, but in the Logos, friend.
@@Jupiter__001_ yeah you right
It felt like I couldn't find the right words when I wrote that a month ago. It's less heady than I thought, we are always over-appraising ourselves.
@@EamonBurke Yeah, I am quite a cerebral sort of fellow, so I understand what you mean. We sometimes need to be reminded that we are limited beings that cannot understand everything that happens around us. Sometimes it's better to take a simpler, humbler approach and just do what good we can.
I'm really surprised that you need to explain yourself. Matthew 23:1-2 is a revolutionary as Deuteronomy. You shall do according to the sentence which they pronounce upon you in that place which the Lord chooses.( Deuter. 17:10) And you shall be careful to do according to all that they order you. Therefore Matthew 23:3, based on Deuteronomy 4:6 observe the book of Judges, for they bind heavy burdens hard to bear. And that all been said, would also explain John's 5:43
Jonathan Pageau is right that it is the responsibility of the rich to look after the poor. What I think is confusing people is the difference between how reality lays itself out verses the methods that we shape/twist society through political power. A better way to look at free markets through the lens of Spontaneous order as outlined in the book 'Individualism and Economic Order' by Fredrick Hayek. I agree with jonathan pageau that in christianity/reality the Ayn Rand philosophy of laissez-faire capitalism has no place. That idea of individualism leads to the opposite of what Ayn Rand believes it does. Ayn Rand's view of capitalism is as political power rather than one tool in a stable society. Also Capitalism cannot answer moral questions.
Spoken like a true communist.
Rand had her flaws, and her view isn't complete imo. However there is something moral in her perspective, even when she embraces the label of selfishness.
I say this because by my reading, the folks labeled selfish were focused on bettering themselves, and generally had a reasonable self interest that also benefited the world, while those accusing people of selfishness were the ones who really were. Those were the folks demanding something for nothing but wouldn't lift a finger to improve themselves, and who treated those who built made and did with contempt, while constantly trying to enslave sabotage or steal from them.
One may argue I suppose that the productive folks should willingly lay down to be food for the greedy selfish hateful and ungrateful mob, but I don't know what the basis of that should be. I can see it as derived from Christian thinking on self sacrifice, but I agree that this is a slaves morality and perhaps not befitting a human being supposedly made in Gods image.
On the other hand, we are all worm food anyway, even God by Christian mythology. But if we are merely to give in to the kleptocracy, going Galt is the natural reaction anyway. There's no reason for Sisyphus to push rocks when he knows they will be knocked back down again. Better to use the rock as a chair and make your persecutors wear themselves out trying to beat you to death. Napoleon is not always right. Either fight or accept the glue factory. No reason to kill yourself building a windmill that incompetent bureaucrats and thieves will just ruin anyway.
For Protestants Jesus needs to be revolutionary so you can repackage him to every generation to be as “relevant” to the world.
I don't think so.
@@johnrockwell5834 since the foundation of protestantism was based on revolt and it has been observed over the last 500 years the fruit of that choice has been revolution after revolution.. I dont see how you can logically disagree with that statement without being intellectually dishonest.
How can a return to the early Church and real hierarchy was intended a revolution?
@@johnrockwell5834 How do you figure it was a return I see a epic fracture from that point into a million denominations that not even Luther or Calvin would recognize. 🙃 Christ founded one church not millions where everyone interprets faith and morals in their own way. If you haven't noticed anything about the nature of Gods creation but by the mere fact that it is orderly.. you may want to consider that fractured chaos isn't part of His design but someone else's. 🙃
Downside of decentralization and heretics forming their own denominations.
Although God's order is just as much varied and even looks chaotic to the outside observer.
The problem with the capitalist system is that not only won't fulfill this ideal but that in a way it actually CAN'T.
Capitalist competition will always favor those who pursue profit over all else. You can't serve God and Mammon, and capitalism ensures the power exclusively goes to the servents of Mammon.
Such a system prevents the powerful from fullfiling such a role as you described unless literally EVERYONE had such integrity as to never do anything unethical in business under any circumstances but be perfectly fair and honest in everything. Not going to happen under a fallen world.
This is exactly right. People that succeed in Capitalist hierarchies are the ones who DON'T embody Christian values because these would get in the way of making money. This is very obvious if you psychoanalyse those at the top of the current hierarchies.
@@karolinasz.141 exactly.
the political issue is kind of solvable if you just do laissez faire capitalism and then add in welfare as needed, it'll give the best outcomes but the business owners will have to care about the employees as well
❤
Really, awesome .God is huge he is powerful he is All Mighty. There is only Good an evil .Every deed will be brought to the light .God bless .
Very cool explanation of acting in the world fractally "as God." Even down to the level of righteous grumbling and pestering! along the lines of ask and you shall receive.
You're in deep water now Jonathan lol
Jordan Peterson: “I have something in common with Nazis in that I am opposed to the radical left. And when you oppose the radical left, you end up being a part of a much larger group that includes Nazis in it.” Yes, and within that much larger group is Jonathan Pageau.
@ars sanitas I know the answer. Mr. Pageau is crackerjacks.
Wow the point that the rich exist to care for the poor blew my mind!
Isn’t the whole point that Christianity was revelationary not revolutionary. It’s just like all things at odds with each other they look strikingly similar
Is Christianity meant for the rich?
Would not the rich and powerful require a different sort of religious thinking? In order to maintain whatever power and authority they may have?
The rich would no longer be rich if they did what you are describing. So no rich person would ever believe what you are saying if they want to stay rich
What's funny is, this is actually perfectly suitable to laissez-faire capitalism. If this duty of the rich to care for the poor is pushed off onto a third party, taken out of the decisions or the mind of the rich person, is that spiritual duty really being fulfilled? That's not even mentioning the doubtful idea that allocating money to standard programs administered by bureaucrats qualifies as "care" in any meaningful sense. I'm not saying that these programs shouldn't exist, just that they aren't really related to this Christian duty at all and they don't fulfill it. The only thing that would is a free and conscious choice to do so, and that is not only possible under LFC, but the ideal conditions under which to do so.
Laissez-faire capitalism assumes people operate without a hierarchy of relations. This is not how it has ever worked out in history. What one assumes to be "Laissez-faire" is actually very carefully orchestrated by those who hold the levers of power to consolidate power, and set up an unjust hierarchy. It is, unfortunately, the way mammon functions, as the more material wealth you have, the more attendant anxieties you have in an effort to protect it. Which leads to more bids for control, and manipulative/violent tactics in pursuit of said control. This is why Libertarians are constantly lamenting the fact that Laissez-faire has "never been tried". It is a system that is self-consistent in its logic but cannot be applied to reality, given its erroneous understanding of human nature and its lack of historical awareness.
Communism has the same problem. Die-hard communists will likewise say that "true communism has never been tried". It has the same problem as Libertarianism but stems from an opposite error. The error of "Laissez-faire" is voluntarism. The error of Communism is lack of hierarchy.
Jesus definitely criticized politics, Herod enjoyed political power because of Rome, with Jesus warning about Herods political corrupt and authoritarian leaven by name.
Near the end of Jesus ministry, when warned that Herod was after him, Jesus addressed Herod calling him a conniving fox, and telling Herod he would not stop ministering.
Jesus wasn't crucified for compliance to the authoritarian, religious or political.
It's not revolutionary because it shows how things always have meant to be
Biblical cosmology
There is a BIG problem here, Jonathan. You say that Christ didn't criticise the state authorities, but he did criticise the money-lenders...well, we currently live under the rule of the money-lenders. So what now?
It’s ironic that it’s the same people both times. Lol
@@karolinasz.141 Really? You don't have much of an imagination do you?
@@karolinasz.141 Did you perhaps mean laissez-faire capitalism was the least Christian? On one hand, you can have a completely free market economy, on the other, a planned economy, with no economic freedom. Or...anything in between. I would still argue that the 'Christian' economy would be closer to the free market end of the spectrum, than to communism. I have a feeling you don't disagree with that statement, right? I've also heard of the 'third way' which would be a system that tries to be right in between the spectrum - with enough freedom to have a flourishing market, but very regulated. The problem with that idea is that I don't think we have a theoretical model for that system - maybe there is no middle there at all. It seems to me, that a regulated, semi-free market has the best chance at achieving some sort of fairness and harmony in society without killing its productiveness. But, I recon that if we only had hard communism vs. free market to choose from - communism would, by far, be the worse of two evils. What do you think?
@@Wolf-Spirit_Alpha-Sigma The problem with Capitalism that is difficult to see is that the market is designed to hijack your desire, it is not your friend. People are not free agents as they like to think, they are actually easily manipulated by the market to buy things and fall into the trap of consumerism. This is why what we have now is an increasing number of people addicted to food, drugs and porn, alone in their rooms overcome with nihilism. Jordan Peterson is right to try and help those people but where he is wrong is his lack of critique of our society which exacerbates alienation because this system seeks to atomise us in order to turn us into efficient workers. If you look at Japan you see that Capitalism reigns strongly there and the consequences are people are literally dying from overworking themselves and jumping in front of trains because they hate their lives so much. Instead of thinking of binaries of free market vs hard communism, we should be able to have an honest and nuanced discussion about what are the problems with this system and if we can make life better for others in order to bring more love and unity to the world.
@@karolinasz.141 I generally agree with you. I just don't see any theoretical model that would achieve this ideal, as of yet. Capitalism is certainly a very powerful Demon - not our friend for sure. But, on a personal level, if we leave complex systems for a moment, if you have your demons, what do you do with them? I though that the answer here was to take back the desires from the grip of said demons, not purging the desires themselves, at least not most of them. You just have to elevate your spirit to gain the control back. As opposed to trying to fight with the system, before reclaiming your heart. Personally, I know that I am 100% responsible for all my vices. I don't see how I could put any blame on the market or the money. What we do to ourselves and others is our sole responsibility, and our cross to bear. And lastly, of course, you're right that we need more nuanced discussions about the world and I only used the binary, low resolution approach as a mental experiment. Which is better. Where is closer to the golden middle. This is why I intuitively see that if the system allows for a mostly free society, it is much better then some kind of regime. Instead of huge, powerful and intelligent demons, you end up with individual trolls and goblins that are much easier to tame or banish. That seems more reasonable to me, but I might also be super wrong. Sorry for rambling and I appreciate your civil response and that your heart seems to be in the right place. God bless. 😊
333 😏
Laissez faire capitalism and taking care of the poor are two entirely different things and not mutually exclusive. Check your definitions.
Don’t worry that you do not have a political solution to the problem. There is no political solution to the problem - at least not one that comports with Christian charity. Political solutions entail force: “we will force you (which means prison or the guillotine) if you don’t comply.”
The solution is to be found in the heart of each individual. Charity is only charity if it is done voluntarily and willingly. And to do so, the laissez faire capitalist (or even the poor woman with two pennies) will have first had to earn something before he can give something. A perfectly Christian concept. Clearly, it cannot be otherwise.
I wish more people and specifically Christians understood what you commented.
Laissez faire has its own problems.
Point of order.
Christ did replace the Pharisaic structure with the Catholic Church. He imbued the authority of the Sanhedrin in the Church, and gave Peter the keys.
I agree with your overall point, but this is an important thing to note, otherwise you would be Jewish and not Christian.
I think that Pageau is putting an individual and state philosophy together. IMO, lessez faire is compatable with Christianity in that a state which is not actively picking economic winners and losers based on who has political clout leaves Christians free (fewer taxes) to exercise Christian charity. There is also the biblical principle that "the sword" is used to combat those who do evil. The sword is not a multi purpose tool for doing positive good. Note the absurdity of saying that the authorities wield the sword against those who do evil, while asserting that evil is whatever they say it is. Paul assumes a separation of powers. ... Man is most excellent at deceiving himself. Who gets to define "good"? Who gets to measure the "good" being done? Note the current political landscape where almost all politicians are arguing over what positive good shall be done. Few argue that the sword is a tool of limited utility.
yes, like every lie (liar) - you for example ... "only i can be strong, i will forbid it to others!" ... luckily lies dont exist ...
It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. 🙃 To whom much is given even more is expected.
I'm suprised that the powerful are suprised when they are excoriated by God. 😂 They should rejoice, the worst would be silence and being left alone, 😒 that would be a sign of death of the soul to come, and predestination for the obstinate refusal of Gods loving correction.
Hello:)
@ars sanitas pi is not 6.14 tho 🙃 but I haven't the foggiest go to his website and DM him.
See, NOW who is misrepresenting arguments.
Laissez-faire capitalism doesn't mean the rich don't have a responsibility to the poor. It means you don't have the authority over others property or how people choose to trade.
That freedom results in the poor being BETTER taken care of.
If the principles you're describing are true, then those at the top of the hierarchy would have to allow free markets.
When you hold your wealth to yourself (the talents parable) you don't make more. When you exercise and invest your talents (free trade) you have more.
When you exercise and invest your talents, you open the door for others to do the same (innovation) and they are richer too.
Yes, it allows corrupt people to do evil things, but that applies even more to those that would want to coercively control people.
The only way you get to your conclusion is if you're bigoted against people based on class, if you believe a person who is wealthy by means of consensual trade is almost always corrupt, but a person who is wealthy through threats of violence is not.
All of this philosophy integrates well with Jesus's teachings, I think you understand Jesus's teachings well, I don't think you understand economics or sociology.
You can have a top down hierarchy of social rules, and still have it based purely on peace and consent, where those at the top take care of those at the bottom. You don't need coercively imposed rules.
Christianity has always been about power, the machinations, the edicts. The only time they rebuke "power" is when that power isn't doing what Christianity wants.
In terms of Christianity as a historical religion, I agree with that. It swiftly became its own power structure, with faith turning into dogma. But within the Christian narrative is a rebuking of the religious authority of its own time/place (Pharisees + Temple cult). Overall, it is ironic that such a somewhat revolutionary thing would become so similar to what it rebelled against.
So many people just don’t understand what capitalism is. It is people with property rights making voluntary trades. It doesn’t require people to be uncaring or to put profits over people. No governmental system can make people care about the poor.
Yes but religion can teach you to "circumcise the heart." No one is decrying work, it's the lack of care to relinquish wealth/power that harms all.
Revolutionary? Yeah it is. Jews faith is rules- laws and a God you must "fear" or, "fight". Christianity is, a God of love, unity the one who comes to sustain the child who connect with. That's revolutionary...people usually think revolution equal communism or fascism... it's not that... it's not about a change of system, it's a change on the mind-set of the individual.
Rules/laws overthrown (for something better), it's pretty much are revolutionary as it gets.
Christianity is a continuation of the religion of the Old Testament. The God of the Old Testament is the God who protects widows and orphans, who forges a nation out of the scum of the earth, out of slaves and misfits - out of the powerless. The God of the Old Testament repeats about one bazillion times that he desires mercy, not ram's blood, and that if you don't intend to show mercy to the weak and the poor, you're better off not going to the Temple, because sacrifices from those who know no mercy are an abomination in His sight. As far as Christianity and love is concerned, that's all well and good - but let's not forget the other half: Let's not forget that just a short vision of Christ knocked Saint Paul off his horse and left him blinded. If I approach Christ without fear and trembling, it means I forgot that I am approaching the Lord Almighty, Who fashioned me out of nothing. As an aside, revolution is a signature move of the extreme left. The extreme right prefers coups-d'etat. Stray not to the right, nor to the left, but follow the King's road.
@@Ameretat010 you're an interesting writer
@@here7036 That' very kind of you to say. Thank you.
@@Ameretat010 You're welcome to it. Thanks for the insight that the left does revolution and the right does a coup, I hadn't stumbled onto that distinction before but it maps to my understanding and expands it a bit. Makes sense that the collectives throw out the the baby and the dirty bathwater, while the individualists shoot the baby and keep the even-dirtier bathwater. Where do you surmise that from? Anywhere in particular?
A bunch of baloney. People who don’t have the spirit cannot see the truth they will interpret things according to the letter. All I see here is a bunch of pagan beliefs and symbolisms making their again into Christianity. Same thing happened with the Roman Catholic Church and later the orthodox to some extent. And here is a revival of that. People who completely miss the spirit behind the letter. Don’t look back too much and try to have some “symbolic” understanding. The spirit let’s you look forward and understand the real truth.
So the only thing I got out of this is that you don't have any of the answers.
its an ancient problem with no easy answers, have some respect for the complexity of it