Update: I'm in college now. This is still the case. We don't have Alto Clarinets (our director thinks their only use is firewood) but we do have 11 Bbs, 2 Basses, a Contra-alto, and a contrabass (me!). In the spring semester he plans to diminish the size of our section to 6-8 Bb Players. The balance is still going to struggle but I can't wait to hear our truly balanced clarinet section. Lol
I give you points for making the effort at all, but you haven't really addressed the question you pose. The alto has been my main clarinet for over thirty years, and I think I can give a more comprehensive insight as to why the instrument is "hated". First of all, who hates it? I don't hate it. Berlioz didn't hate it: In his Treatise on Orchestration and Instrumentation he said, "It is a very beautiful instrument which ought to take its place in all well-established orchestras." Percy Grainger didn't hate it: he wrote some beautiful solo passages for it. Gianluigi Trovesi doesn't hate it: he's used it as one of his principle solo instruments on at least 20 albums. Composers don't seem so much to hate the instrument, as to be indifferent to it -- or to ignore it entirely. But plenty of band directors and orchestra conductors seem to hate it. And, more importantly, a lot of clarinetists seem to hate it. The main reason the instrument has a bad rep among players because of what I call the "viola syndrome". The conductor of an amateur ensemble -- such as a middle school, high school, or college band or orchestra -- never knows from one season/semester to the next exactly what instruments he/she's going to have available, and, unlike professional ensembles, they can't just go out and recruit additional musicians to fill missing ranks. Solution? For the sake of balance (or just to supply missing pieces of harmony), some players get "reassigned" -- often against their will -- to other instruments. Some of the stragglers among the 2nd violins, for example, (who may not have been practicing as much as they should) get switched to viola, so the conductor can have at least 3 or 4 violas to pit against his 37 violins. The band equivalent of this is the trombone or French horn player who gets moved to baritone or tuba -- and the 3rd clarinet player who gets moved to alto clarinet. So right from the start, you have the instrument being played by less skilled players, who may resent being required to play it in the first place. Adding insult to injury, as you point out, since the alto is considered a "secondary" instrument, the conductor/school likely hasn't invested in the best $14,000 Buffet professional model alto, but in the cheapest plastic instrument they could find, quite likely used, and often not even reconditioned. So now you have an angry, unskilled performer playing on a balky, unresponsive instrument. Taking things one lever further, the bulk of the majority of alto clarinet band parts -- I speak from experience -- contain little or no solo material, and only rarely even an independent harmonic voice. Usually the alto clarinet is required to alternate between doubling the 3rd Bb clarinets, and doubling the Eb alto saxes, between counting through long deserts of rests. Besides making for a hugely boring part, this situation presents yet another obstacle: the alto is frequently criticized for being difficult or impossible to play in tune. Anyone who has ever worked with an amateur wind ensemble knows that when the high clarinets drift off pitch they frequently tend to play sharp; while when the saxophones drift off pitch, they tend to play flat. The poor alto clarinet, alternately doubling both parts, is handed the impossible task of either simultaneously maintaining two mutually exclusive tuning references, or of continually making (often considerable) intonation adjustments that are most likely beyond his/her current skill level. So now you have an angry, unskilled performer, wrestling a balky, unresponsive instrument, playing a boring part, in a context that pretty much guarantees that they will be frequently scolded for being out of tune, regardless of their best efforts. This is not a formula for making beautiful music. Nor is it a formula for making anyone fall in love with the instrument. The players feel like they are being punished by having to play it (for reasons they don't quite understand); other musicians in the group hear the result and think ("damn! I'm glad they didn't make ME play that"); the conductor, trying to pull it all together, thinks ("why the hell does anyone write for this instrument? I'm glad I don't have to deal with more than one or two at a time!") And any composers in earshot think "that instrument sounds crappy; guess I'll avoid it, and write violin sonatas for Joshua Bell, instead". And a vicious cycle is initiated. Those of us who love the alto clarinet are working hard to try to break this cycle. We use the alto all we can; we improvise with it; we write transcriptions of famous melodies for it; we compose new and exciting music for it. We keep and maintain quality instruments, and we devote ourselves to practicing ON the alto, and not treating it as a mere "auxiliary" instrument, to be picked up only when our Bb soprano gets stolen. We strive to play it well, and to be heard doing so by as many as possible. Always hoping to someday break the cycle, and elevate the alto to it's proper place. Progress is being made, but it's an uphill struggle.
This. I just kinda saw this video and thought it'd be interesting to watch, but I've never heard anything about its balance. As much as that makes sense, it's totally mute compared to all the hurdles the instrument has to deal with. Pretty much every instrument that dared to call itself alto is dead for the same few reasons. You need to have a reason for the instrument to exist and you need players to actually want it. Alto range doesn't require a ton of instrumentation. French Horn is going no where. Alto Sax is unbeatable. What else do you need and who's going to play it? And if you don't think the players are an important detail, or I'm being too school-centric, look at the massive pile of obsolete instruments generated by attempts to replace or at least provide a marching capable French Horn. The one that finally stuck is the worst sounding of all of them. Seems like some military bands have just given up on marching instruments altogether.
Thank you for addressing the issues. I've more or less heard and read the same thing from various sources. Credit goes to you for doing something to bring this beautiful instrument out of the shadows.
Wow! Wow! Wow! Well ya, YOU answered dam well to "why the alto clarinet is so hated" ! This made it all clear and obvious! I hope many people will read your comment and understand better. You even gave me a sudden desire to try that instrument! Thank you! 😃
I'm a real fan of the alto clarinet; I think it's a very versatile and expressive instrument. As a composer I remember being told not to write for it when I began writing for band about twenty years ago. I ignore that bad advice. I do like to include parts for it, and give it solos. I would like to write a concerto for alto and symphony orchestra one day. It certainly deserves more respect.
I played the Alto for many years in a local community concert band. Actually two of them. I was the only one in one of those bands, the other band had 3 altos. Pretty rare. One problem with the alto is that its often considered merely as a "doubling" instrument on parts that already have cover, so they're not seen as needed. However, after many years playing in concert bands I noticed my parts quite often jumped around range and where support was really needed throughout the music. In the band that had 3 altos, it really did lend a lot of support and strength to a line in a composition the composer felt needed to really be heard. I had tons of fun playing this instrument due to how often my part changed from supporting the bass line all the way up to melody. There are is a large portion of concert band music that feature Soli lines with the Alto, often times going unheard since it is deemed "unnecessary". I was lucky enough to be apart of a concert band that always adhered as best it could to covering any instrument that had a part, we even had a dedicated contrabassoon. After being apart of this, I can say the alto does add in its own merits as long as there is proper balance. Sure, there are some compositions that exclude an alto part entirely. Sadly, many directors often give an alto player the alto sax part since...well...it has "alto" in its name. Most times, alto parts are written doubling bassoon and that is the range where the alto has its most strength. In smaller bands, the alto can easily substitute a bassoon if there are plenty of clarinets and no bassoon player. But, then again....the alto has "no utility" according to the large majority of directors. There's also the issue with conductors that they see the instrument to be often finicky, stuffy, and generally out of tune. I NEVER had any of these issues and was often complimented about how big and full of a tone I could produce out of it. Generally I find that players often use inadequate mouthpieces and reeds. The horns themselves aren't the problem, if in good condition. I used a cheap Vito alto I purchased from ebay. Thing sounded fantastic. However, I didn't skimp on the mouthpiece and found one that was suited for ME. And always use actual alto reeds....often times people substituted sax reeds which are terrible to use on the alto and simply don't fit. They're too big!! The biggest tip I had learned was to use weaker reeds....no stronger than a 2....2.5 MAX. These are just my opinions though on the alto in the concert band. I have no experience in a clarinet choir. But, I could go on about how the alto really does need to be re-instated into the modern concert band...along with a few other forgotten members.
I wondered why nobody plays alto clarinet. I think it's a cool instrument. I've never seen anybody play an alto clarinet in real life or in a band anywhere. And yet there's an alto clarinet in alot of sheet music I see.
I've personally played the alto clarinet in a clarinet Quartet (2 Bb's, 1 alto, 1 bass). It was awsome. But the clarinet , which i borrowed from the local Music school, needed a bit of work to perform as it should.
Před 7 lety+4
personally played alto clarinet in 2 bands and clarinet ensemble. loved the instrument...
I currently play Bb clarinet and Eb clarinet, but I've always wanted to get an alto clarinet too. To me, it's kind of like the viola of concert band. Most normal people wouldn't even know what it is, it gets made fun of quite a bit by the rest of the orchestra, and usually doesn't get fantastic parts written for it. But I think it has a really beautiful sound- rich and expressive in it's lower range, somewhat like the cello. I think the alto clarinet has that same sort of tone, relative to the clarinet section, and it has a lot of potential that few composers really take advantage of.
What a great 'speech' on issues with the alto clarinet. It can definitely be used as a general perspective on the balance in a band.I play the bassoon in a concert band and am typically doubled by either the 4 tubas or the 2 euphoniums, and sometimes both instruments. Very rarely I do have 'my own' melody/voice where you can pick out the bassoon sound. As I see it, it is mostly down to bad arranging. Bad arrangers usually have 'a core' of instruments they score their arrangements for and then copy-paste to the other instruments in the band just because they just happen to be there. These 'forgotten' instruments are often oboe, cor anglais, bassoon, bass clarinet, tenorsax and baritonesax. Furthermore, conductors are often themselves brassplayers and therefore primarily concentrate on their own kind.
You're exactly right. That's one issue I took up in my new book on band orchestration. Those "forgotten" instruments actually form the heart of the band.
Parts in bands are frequently doubled because the publisher has to allow for different instrumentation - one size fits all. In the United States, early in the 20th century there was a movement to stardardize wind ensemble instrumentation, but band leaders couldn't agree - and it was impossible to expect every group would have the same instruments. The standard would have included alto and bass clarinet, but that ended up being a wish list. When my marching band had to play a classical piece in the mid-1960s, we had to rent alto and bass clarinets for the season.
The tendency you described (writing for a "core" of instruments and then proceeding to "copy-paste [the parts] to the other instruments in the band just because they just happen to be there") means that this "bad arranging" is better suited for the pipe organ instead of the concert band, at least in my opinion. With a pipe organ, it is virtually effortless to effect such transformations (by drawing different stops) such that a composer can write what's essentially a modified piano piece with timbre suggestions that the organist has the option to ignore. I would argue that writing in such a way (mainly utilizing homophonic texture) for large ensembles (like the concert band) fails to take advantage of the inherently polyphonic nature of a large ensemble that allows for such beauty as the second 'strophe' of "Lisbon" (from Lincolnshire Posy) or (from a more recent example) the scintillating ending of "Cathedrals" (by Kathryn Salfelder).
You're right about forgotten instruments, but one of the most left out instruments out there is actually a brass instrument, being my instrument of choice: the baritone horn. In the band I play in, whenever we get pieces from the classical era or a similar time frame, I just end up playing bassoon or trombone parts since baritone horn parts simply don't exist. Due to the baritone horn being replaced by other instruments, baritone and tenor sax as well as alto and bass clarinet have gotten more of a spotlight, and bassoon is used well in Bernstein's works, at least the ones I've performed. It's not odd to see lower woodwind instruments being left out from compositions, but one of the least known instruments is actually a brass instrument replaced by those lower woodwinds. Also, although baritone horn and euphonium are similar in range, their purpose is actually quite different. Baritone horn is very similar to French or alto horns as they usually play quicker notes in a higher range like the very few baritone parts I actually play, while euph has a slightly lower range and a more mellow sound, similar to a tuba pitch corrected up an octave.
In my experience the strongest clarinet players are seldom the ones that move to the harmony clarinets. So in addition to balance issues, you have weaker players on the instruments that need the biggest boost. Notice I said 'in my experience', your mileage may vary.
That is true for community and high school bands however once you get to professional ensembles all the players must audition so they are all very strong players
It's also possible to have a strong player who just doesn't have the range on the Bb to "compete". In the typically unbalanced high school clarinet section, you're better off putting your strongest 3rd player(s) onto the Bass if possible so the one or two BCs have a prayer of competing against the usually heavy mid range and upper instruments. Modern arrangers tend to have the alto clarinet double the 3rds and/or the alto sax (assuming they put an alto clarinet part at all) so depending on your band's setup there may be more use for the alto than for yet another third.
This is true in my case. I'm a reasonably okay clarinet player (got 1s at my last competition over two years ago but will be returning next year on clarinet and tenor sax) but haven't tried playing any other members of the clarinet family than the Bb.
Thinking about buying one of these so I can continue playing after I graduate high school and not feel deprived when I no longer have access to my school's $13,000 Selmer bass clarinet anymore. I've always wanted to learn how to play alto regardless.
Matthew Banks I actually recently got a Selmer Bundy for pretty cheap, but I'll probably save up for a LeBlanc or Selmer Paris if I can ever find one for a good enough price. Thanks for the recommendation.
I haad to give up my Buffet bass when i graduated, so i feel your pain. Check out Ridenour Bass clarinets. Pretty incredible quality and only around 3 grand
Who thinks that the bass clarinet should be the tenor clarinet, the contralto would be the baritone clarinet, and the contrabass could be the bass clarinet, and they would make a new contrabass clarinet.
An improved alternative could be: Sopranino in Ab (Piccolo) Soprano in Eb (Eb) Alto in Bb (Bb) Tenor in Eb (Alto) Baritone in Bb (Bass) Bass in Eb (Contra-alto) Sub-bass in Bb (Contrabass)
I was in Chicago in 2006 when I met a street musician playing an Alto clarinet. I said to him that you are the first street musician I have ever met playing an alto clarinet. He said I was the first person he had met who knew it was an alto clarinet. I played bass clarinet in high school.
I love the alto clarinet, and bass clarinet. I played Bass Clarinet in jazz band (yes really) did the tenor sax part, and it added a sweet sound layer. The alto would do the same, could work even with an Alto sax, or tenor, it's cool that way.
The alto clarinet is a gorgeous instrument that fills the large gap between the soprano and bass clarinet. That there are innumerable parts in the concert band literature, whether good, bad or indifferent, is reason enough to insist that the instrument is fielded properly, like any other required instrument. Its importance in the clarinet choir is not subject to debate. And although it is obvious enough that the alto suffers from some amount of neglect and therefore disparagement, for multiple and interconnected reasons, there are enough sympathetic fans, not to mention extant instruments, to preclude any sort of sudden extinction. Embarrassingly, the alto clarinet's worst enemies are the very scholastic/musical institutions assigned with its care and feeding - apathetic composers, directors, teachers and clarinetists themselves. That said, it is a mistake to throw everybody under the bus in the blame-game, for it is also these very people who champion the instrument, and who's enthusiasm will trump the more unimaginative elements of our musical organizations. I believe most of the work in sustaining/revitalizing the interest in the alto clarinet falls upon the shoulders of the clarinetists' themselves; through their shear numbers, they are in the best position for this. Despite the limited reach and scope of the concert band, the alto must be embraced, defended and supported. We have to own this instrument. Naysayers will always find something to moan about. Let them; those viewpoints are never important anyway, noisy as they may be. In the meantime, I believe the future of the alto clarinet is secure.
I was just given a clarinet for my birthday. My ignorance of woodwind is notable, I didn't even know there was such a thing as an alto, let alone any controversy, so thank you, subscribed.
In 6th grade I wanted to play clarinet so bad, but they were full so I started on bass clarinet. Fast forward to high school. All the bass clarinet spots were taken by upperclassmen, so I played contra alto. At first, I was pissed both times. But then that first warm, yet sorrowful tone I produced made me instantly fall in love. Midway through high school, I picked up bass guitar and was in a band for a little bit after high school. Couple of years back I got to talking with someone in a bar and they asked me why I chose to play bass. I replied, I didn't choose bass, bass chose me. I wish I could afford at least a bass clarinet. A contra alto is what I really want though.
I like the contralto clarinet and bass saxophone. Baritones sound awesome too! And yes, I must agree that having voices balanced out is also important for getting a full proper blend and range of sounds in an orchestra.
I own an alto clarinet, and it's fun. I can play to the top of the range without peeling paint off the walls, and at the bottom it's quite effective for lines you would ordinarily consider characteristic of the bass clarinet. Then again, I'm using it in settings where I'm the only woodwind of _any_ type, which allows me a great deal of latitude in instrument selection. I think the real problem is that the clarinet already has an enormous range of well over three octaves, making it difficult to slot anything into the intermediate E♭/F holes in between octaves. When I write for my minimalist "orchestra" or "band", which I render with a DAW, balance is as simple as twiddling some controls. Thus, no parts are doubled, not even the strings. Sometimes I will double the string section so that I can split parts or have solo and ripieno, but that is because I need them rather than for balance purposes. I use E♭, B♭, and bass clarinets simply because that's what's most useful while keeping the numbers down. I would leave the actual balance problems to the performers if these arrangements should see live performance. One of my pieces does swap out the B♭ clarinet for an alto while retaining the E♭ and bass, because that's just what I needed in terms of range.
Majincheese Yeah me neither, I'm in band but we have no altos and in orchestra, where there's only really B flat (and sometimes A) soprano clarinets and B flat bass clarinet. But orchestras do have violas which seem to be in kind of a similar situation to altos.
And no, it sounds like a regular clarinet, just half an octave lower. And the bottom end of alto clarinets are rich and dark, the top end sounds like bass clarinet altissimo, stands out (in a good way).
Really the pitches of clarinets are: Eb-clarinet: soprano Bb-clarinet: alto Alto clarinet: tenor Bass clarinet: baritone* Contralto clarinet: bass Contrabass clarinet: subbass *Yeah: _Although its name is bass clarinet, its pitch is baritone. The real bass member of the clarinet family is the contralto clarinet._ Anyway, the Bb-clarinet has the role of the women's voices (soprano, mezzo-soprano and alto), while alto clarinet has the role of tenor, bass clarinet has the role of baritone and contralto and contrabass have the role of bass and contrabass. And Eb-clarinet has the role of sopranino or piccolo, so the clarinet section of the 7:25 is 8 pitched. But do the all clarinets play at the same time?
Saxophones are massively doubled in bands too. Bass saxophones already are almost never seen. There's also usually two tenor parts and sometimes a third alto.
sitting here, watching this video, while noodling away on a contra-alto clarinet. Irony. Our school owns 3 Contra-alto clarinets, one Contra-bass clarinet, and NO alto clarinets. Yes, you heard me, NONE. I am a Bari sax player who is self teaching clarinet over Christmas break, hence contra-alto, as I can at least get reed commonality. (It is so quiet :>) I usually play on a 5 on Bari, or the closest I can find. We have enough Bari players (four!) , enough to easily drown everyone else should I also get involved. My mouthpiece is a berg Larsen 120/2. Needless to say, I can become very loud, VERY quickly should I need to. So, I would usually sneak an alto Clarinet part, and read up an octave, and use altissimo to go above normal range should I find myself needing to. Band director finally noticed. Gave me a pat on the back and told me to keep it up. So now I am taking matters into my own hands, and learning Contra-alto, so I can have a bit more projection, and taking things up an octave. Besides, after altissimo with a size 5 reed, anything on clarinet feels like no lip whatsoever, and I LOVE it ;). And for those curious, I cannot play alto sax anymore, period, because I cannot find a reed anywhere hard enough that it doesn't quit and so soft after about 30 minutes playing. Doesn't bother me though. I hate alto sax ;).
Might I suggest playing on a softer reed or a more closed facing mouthpiece? What you're using might be appropriate for jazz band but is totally out of place in a concert band. It also sounds like you're biting the reed, which will cause you to "need" a harder reed. There should be far less pressure from the embouchure. That said, a more appropriate thing to do would be read straight from tuba parts and use the E-flat/bass clef sight transposing technique.
I haven't played with others for years, so when I play it's pure self-indulgence, and for me the most enjoyable clarinet to play is the alto. It simply fits into the range I prefer to play in.
The bass and Bb completely and COMFORTABLY overlap the alto's range. A good bass clarinetist can easily play from a Bb1 to a C5 (concert pitch) and a good Bb clarinetist can easily play from D3 to G6. And neither of these players will struggle in dynamic or tone. The only thing an alto can do better than a bass is ultra-high notes, in which case there's no reason not to give that part to 1st or 2nd clarinets. If you need more of that range (and you have the necessary manpower), just call for more 3rds, more basses, or both. It's a similar story with the contralto. The clarinet has a fantastic range, and because of this there's really no reason to have more than Eb, Bb, Bass, Contra. There are zero gaps in the range with those four. Not even "oh but those notes are hard" gaps. The alto's range is just completely irrelevant. A good alto can find its place in a clarinet choir, and I bet it could be great as a solo instrument, but the range seriously just isn't relevant in the context of an entire band. There are other, better options.
During my time playing in school and amateur adult bands, I never saw or knew any other alto clarinets played apart from my own. As an adult player, I sure became popular whenever my fellow clarinets wanted to play Mozart's divertimentos trios and quartets.
Personally, I love the alto clarinet. I played on one for years in the wind ensemble, jazz workshop, symphony orchestra of Walnut Creek...even the praise and worship band at church and my one contemporary jazz sessions. Personally, I don't understand why people seem to have issues with harmony or anything else when it comes to the alto clarinet. It's an alto instrument, so it's going to be similar to the viola and/or other alto voiced instruments.
I don't fully agree with you at the point that a single alto clarinet will not be heard when playing with six Bb clarinets. The key to be heard lies in to play extremely clear. I could play the alto with 20 Bb's and still be Heard. If you know that there is one lonely alto gut, let him be heard, not necessarily by taking down your own part, but playing as your part were a Little bit less important. The thing about orchestral playing is to not overpower another player. But you do make awsome vidoes! And alto clarinets are awsome!
It's the alto curse... similar to the violas, "alto-horns"/"tenor-horns" (whatever those are), alto flutes, alto trombones, high bassoons ("tenoroons") and I guess english horns and heckelphones and the "oboe de amore"... by having a somewhat middling range where you don't get the melody lines, but you're also not low enough that you get low melody lines that the composer sticks to heftier instruments or the top end of lighter bass parts. For some reason, alto and tenor saxes, horns, tenor trombones don't seem to be too affected by this "curse" even though they're kindof in the middle too... perhaps because they can blare loud enough to get noticed ;3
When he said a single bass clarinet I felt that straight to the heart I hadn’t even heard of an alto clarinet till I moved to a bigger school then we had two altos and I was the second bass clarinet and a single contra bass I felt at home but there was like 12-16 regular clarinets nothing higher but he speaks the truth we won many competitions cause our sax section was similar so was our flutes
My band has nine sopranos, ~4 basses, and one contra alto. The soprano section is divided evenly in thirds (2nd part here, 4th chair). The contra alto seems to double with bari sax, and the basses do their own thing.
In Grainger's Lincolnshire Posy, the extra alto saxophone part is actually only a substitute for the soprano saxophone when the latter is not available. So there are effectively five sax parts in this piece.
I think one problem with alto clarinets is that some have been made with very wide bores and so have a thick, dull tone. The Bundy Resonite Eb alto that I played in junior high school would fit this description. But others have been made with narrower bores, and I expect should then blend better with soprano clarinets. Secondly, your point about typically having only one alto clarinet per band is well taken. In an article about Vincent Persichetti in The Instrumentalist magazine years ago, a list was given of the proposed standard instrumentation for a proper band, developed by a panel of composers and directors including Persichetti. It was especially interesting that they proposed having 12 Bb clarinets, and these only divided into first and second so six first, six second), then 6 Eb alto clarinets, effectively taking the place of third Bb clarinets and equally balancing each section of Bb clarinets. It seems a wise proposal.
Actually, my research has shown that the larger bore instruments, like the LeBlanc, are usually better in tune. The narrow bore leads to some tuning problems (like the Selmer).
The clarinet has a wider range than the saxophone. What can be achieve by a sax ensemble can be achieved by a clarinet ensemble, BECAUSE the clarinet has a wider range than the sax. Eb clarinet+Bb clarinet+Bass clarinet covers what 4 different types of sax can do.
This is a large part of the reason why bands just don't sound as good; the balances are all off, people are always doubling across sections, and wind players in band are usually not as high of caliber as those that play in orchestras. We need a wind ensemble revival; but it's cost prohibitive.
My clarinet section in my band has 5 Bb, me on the alto, and one on the bass. My friend next to me said she couldn't even hear me in any of the songs we played at our concert. I hate how anything below the Bb is just kinda not used
I'm the only alto clarinet player in my honors band, and i love it a lot, but i do joke that my instrument is kind of the middle child in terms of the clarinets
It's generally because the alto clarinet was invented in the 1840s to make up for the fact that the basset horn was still a problem to play then. Players could then play the Mozart basset horn parts on the 'tenor' clarinet in Eb, and just transpose the parts up a tone. So it is essentially a basset horn in Eb or a poor man's basset horn. It lacks the tone of the basset horn and the range too so it found a place in the wind ensemble like the saxophone. There are however couple of orchestral solos including Le CID by Massenet.
You have to realize that my whole approach is from a band/wind ensemble point of view and not strictly orchestral. Do you have any documentation on the Le Cid parts for Alto Clarinet?
Bandestration I was just being factual and wasn't referring to a band set up. For reference read Albert Rice's book, 'From the Clarinet d'Amore to the Contra Bass'
I've seen the book, but don't have it readily available. It's a bit out of my price range. Otherwise, I do understand the early history of the instrument fairly well.
Knowing the history won't change the premise of modern usage. This is about composition and orchestration rather than history. I have a feeling you might have missed that point.
In my band years, we had a plethora of clarinetists but we also had an alto clarinetist, two bass clarinetists and a contraband clarinetist. I'm using clarinetist a lot. They sounded great. Also playing in a n All-State band, we had three alto clarinetists and they were terrific. I see no problem with this instrument at all. It's a great instrument but this is coming from a trombone/euphonium/tuba player.
The decent alto clarinets are very expensive but play well. The beginner altos are inexpensive and are atrocious players. The bass clarinet and Bb soprano clarinet easily cover the alto clarinet range. The alto clarinet though has a very nice and unique sound and, when played well, is a nice addition to a group.
While you have interesting viewpoints on clarinet choir scoring, I am confused on your argument on the alto clarinet. My understanding for why it is disliked is because of band history and the perception of the basset horn. The history being that when placement of the clarinet section would happen, the lowest chair was assigned to alto clarinet (thought being a student could do less damage on a lower clarinet) and because of this trend of putting less skilled players on the alto, the results of the playing and subsequently the instrument itself became disliked. Thus instrument manufactures became less inclined to invest R&D (or high standards of manufacturing) into instruments that no one liked, which does not help the situation. As far has the basset horn, most clarinetists are familiar with the Mozart concerto and the fact that it was originally intended for basset horn (or a basset horn like instrument). From this familiarity, most college and professional ensembles will use basset horns to play alto clarinet parts when needed. It has simply become a more preferable option to the "bad rep" that the alto clarinet has developed. So most directors/players stay away from it.
The scenario you describe was/is indeed common, but it's an effect and not the cause. Directors would move them to Alto to cause less harm. The Alto part caused less harm because composers didn't write exacting parts for it. Composers didn't write exacting parts for it because directors would often leave it out because it didn't make any difference. It didn't make any difference because directors never employed them in large enough numbers. It's akin to having only a single Viola in the orchestra. One makes no difference. A section transforms the string section. Basset Horn was never really a member of the band unless you look at 19th century Germanic Harmoniemusik. The Mozart was not written for Basset Horn, but for A Clarinet with a low C (or B as some research indicates). The term "basset" confuses some people and I tend to not use it in my own writing.
Concerning balance, I have found Henry Brant's "Textures and Timbres: an Orchestrator's Handbook" to be most helpful. His rule of thumb is that it takes two of the "classical" woodwinds (flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon) playing in unison to match the dynamic and fullness of one saxophone -- or one French horn. Then it takes two saxophones or horns playing in unison to match the dynamic of a trumpet, trombone, euphonium or tuba -- and similarly, four classical woodwinds in unison to do the same. I would like to see a band instrumentation developed to fulfill these criteria for balance.
That's one orchestration book I don't have. I probably should get it sooner or later. The saxophone rule I don't fully agree with. Sax completely depends on the mouthpiece. An original Sax mouthpiece means the volume is about equal to the other winds. A more modern or a jazz piece and the sax is nearly as loud as the brass. As for your wanting to see a band orchestration/instrumentation developed to reflect that, that is exactly what I am doing in my symphony "The Forest of Dreams." It's the culmination of years of study of band and wind orchestration.
Though never playing any clarinets in my life I would lile to argue that the amount of clarinets im each section doesnt matter.(i've only played baritone sax and percussion) Alto and Bass clarinets will have a much deeper and rich sound as compared to the Bb clarinet. However just because there are more of fhe Bb clarinet and less of alto(or lack thereof) doesnt affect balance. Instrumentation yes they are unbalanced but musically we will never know until the band ays together. To me tenor and bass voices are the backbone to music and the upper voices sound empty without it. The alto fills in the roll and(assuming) has a nice tenor sound paired with the bass clarinet will be an extremely well made low reed section. Alto clarinets are still valid, though rarely used and rarely used well in bands, can be a huge impact on bands that use them.
I don't dislike the alto clarinet because of its sound, but rather its history. A little-known fact about the alto clarinet is actually its relationship with the baritone horn, being my instrument of choice. There's a reason why in many classical pieces arranged by Boosey and Hawkes (considered the leading arranger of classical music), especially Gustav Holst's First Suite, the baritone horn part specifically is randomly gone. Arrangements tried making the shift to a more modern woodwind feel in music, and the baritone horn was scrapped due to a, "lack of character and ineffectiveness," and given to instruments like tenor and baritone sax as well as, again, the alto clarinet. If notes weren't applicable in any woodwind part they were left out completely. The arrangement didn't sound as it was supposed to with the complete absence of the baritone horn and instead being replaced by mainly the alto clarinet and tenor saxophone. Decades later, it was decided that the baritone horn part would live on in the euphonium part rather than being a part for its own instrument in later Boosey and Hawkes revisions, and the alto clarinet was scrapped from a piece it never *really* belonged in. The only semblance of a specific baritone horn part was made in a revision made by Frederick Fennel, where he also claimed that the alto clarinet's attempt to replace the baritone horn was a sad mistake made by some editor or other, and thought it better that the euphonium should play any notes lost from the baritone part rather than the alto clarinet as it has some semblance of tonal similarity. Again, it's not the alto clarinet's sound that is the issue, but rather what it tried doing to other instruments. TL;DR: The alto clarinet isn't bad as an instrument per se, but it, along with all other woodwinds, has no business trying to replace other brass instruments like the baritone horn as it tried to do in classical pieces. Likewise, brass instruments should not try to replace woodwind parts, as each have their own unique strengths only applicable to them.
As far as I know, the Alto Clarinet replacing the Baritone Horn part in Holst is a singular occurrence and a rather curious one at that. I'm all in favor of returning permanently to the original scoring of the Holst Suites as the original scoring is far superior to the muck that been edited today.
@@BretNewtonComposer Very much agree. The best arrangement I could find was one made by Fredrick Fennel that mostly maintained the original instrumentation, but the ones distributed the most are Boosey and Hawkes arrangements that completely removed the baritone part. In the band I play in, we were given First Suite to read, but there were parts in recordings that weren't in baritone or euphonium parts, not even as a cue. I managed to get my hands on the baritone part in the Fredrick Fennel arrangement of the piece and play it mostly as it should've been. However, before I found out about the baritone part, the bandmaster had given the alto clarinet part with the scrapped baritone part within it to our alto saxophone section, since that was the closest thing we had to an alto clarinet. I didn't agree with the decision, but this was before we got our hands on the baritone part and discovered the story behind it and the alto clarinet part, and the bandmaster wasn't about to just take away the alto clarinet part from the sax section. As for pieces other than First Suite, the baritone part or ones meant for a B-flat saxhorn were given to a tenor saxophone or alto clarinet, with examples like Second Suite and Folk Song Suite (I'm not completely certain about those two specifically, but I know there's ones out there, even if there is a slight difference between baritone and B-flat saxhorn). It still amazes me how an entire committee of "professional" musicians and arrangers could make such questionable decisions at the time.
The balancing issue wouldn't be a problem, that is, if our school had an alto clarinet. Our band is minuscule, with 2 Bb clarinets, a bass clarinet, and me willing to play alto during some of the time when bassoon playing is limited by the scoring (jazz band). An alto clarinet would fit in fantastically. Our band, returning to the problem of miniscule, has only me as the bassoon, no oboe, three flutes, a tuba, no euphonium or baritone, and four trombones. Notice I didn't talk about trumpets or saxophones. Well, this is where our high school band becomes super unbalanced. 1 obnoxious baritone saxophone (think muffled goose) a tenor saxophone, and 5 alto saxophones. That and like 10 trumpets.
If I were your director, i'd consider converting four of the trumpets to French Horn, and suggest at least two alto players switch to clarinet.....that would help this group just a little bit, provided the players could handle the switch well
Hmm was 2nd clarinet that was moved to alto another reason is I always do the saxophone part even if there is a alto clarinet part but in our band there is a single alto saxophone so that’s more fair
I play all low clarinets (including alto) and I can say that the alto is not super useful in a band or any other kind of instrumental ensemble. The standard Bb soprano clarinet covers the range of the alto and soprano saxophone. The alto clarinet is not close in range to an alto saxophone, but actually closer to a low tenor or a high bari.
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02:40 That is the standard, but US school and community bands generally have two sax 'players' for every clarinet musician, sometimes even more. Those saxes honk along with no concept of sound, blasting through any musicianship of the rest of the reeds. I am 55, and in all that time, I have never played in a wind ensemble where the sax players had any idea of what was going on. Trained seals at best. That has kept me in orchestras and brass bands.
Lmao. I played alto, we had 23 altos, so I switched to tenor and double on alto. Every four seconds, our conducted flips because someone can't read a freaking key signature.
Years ago, I was told the altos have inherent intonation issues, which was why jazz guys generally go straight to bass clarinet when they want that sound.
I played a little bass clarinet in my high school ensemble and I was lucky enough to start dating a girl whose stepdad is a band director so he ended up giving me one of the broken ones that his school would have had to just trash, but MAN if my high school band had had a contrabass clarinet position... I would have been ALLLLLLL over that.
I haven't come across this situation, with only one alto, but the bands I've played in where I am on bass, contra-alto, and contra-bass clarinet, so those bands are very large compared to the 6 B flats, 1 alto, and 1 bass.
I’m a clarinetist and bass clarinetists and alto contrabass clarinetist and I’m the one in my band that is capable of play the bass clarinet to the contrabass alto clarinet. My band to be far is pretty small only got 3 clarinet not counting me so sometimes I struggle to be heard but I manage lol I have good air powerrr
My band has 12 clarinets no alto clarinets and 2 bass clarinets i want to play alto but the band director thinks the alto clarinet is useless. Not true.
The Alto is a “Pinch hitter”- it can double the 3rd clarinet parts to really support them and also reinforce the bass clarinet lines by doubling them as Low as it can go and then otherwise mirroring the bass-line by playing it octave higher. Sonically this sounds fantastic when the bass line is double-octaveD :)
I feel perhaps rather than having two sopranos playing an alto voice, two altos playing a soprano, and two bass clarinets playing bass, it would be more fitting to have two altos playing alto voicing, and four bass clarinets, two playing tenor and two playing bass. My principal instrument is bass clarinet, and I find myself playing tenor lines often, usually in jazz charts but sometimes on band pieces where a bass clarinet part has gone missing. Bass and alto clarinets have a huge range, and a very beautiful, broader tone on mid to very high notes, which would fill out the middle of the sound of the ensemble much better than keeping them in the lower register. That, and your bass clarinets would have more interesting parts!
The alto part is usually very boring. If it isn't, then the tenor part is usually boring. If that isn't true, then the bass part is probably mostly just doing the root and a fifth. This is practical, simple part writing. Open any hymnal, join a choir, take music theory, whatever. You will notice this eventually. It doesn't have to be this way, but it takes some serious skill on the part of the composer. When I played in an orchestra early in my schooling as a kid, viola was not popular. I blame part writing.
Uhhhhh... what? This kind of fails to consider the sections you described in the context of the full ensemble, doesn't it? No one's going to say your flute section or tuba section are unbalanced because they're missing one extreme or the other of the range. It also fails to consider the natural acoustic qualities of various instruments and how that affects their blend with the rest of the ensemble. The idea behind a large, fully manned symphonic band is in the name: imitate the symphony orchestra in depth and balance of sound, often playing transcriptions of pieces originally written for full orchestra. The way this pans out in the clarinet section is often: the first part is split into 1a and 1b, with these players filling the roles of the orchestral clarinet players; then the second and third clarinet parts (often joined with other instruments such as lower flute parts) fill the role of the first and second violins, respectively. The alto clarinet, along with other instruments across the band, steps into the viola role, the basses into the cello - again with parts often shared with other instruments - and the contra, again shared, into the double bass. Of course this isn't exactly 1:1 replacement - the first clarinets may join the rest of the Bb section for tutti passages and may have the concertmaster solos written into their part; the alto also sometimes joins horn lines; the bass also sometimes joins low brass, etc. But the overall point is that the balance considered in the context of the ensemble is what's important, not whether individual instrument families which may or may not span the entire range of the piano are balanced among themselves. As long as the alto clarinet is supported on that viola line by other middle voice instruments (eg. saxes, first bassoon when not playing its own orchestral part, etc.) the ensemble will sound correct. (To wit - wind ensemble instrumentation, which often reduces the clarinet section to two on each Bb part and one bass, with the eefer and harmony clarinets completely omitted, but still covers middle voices using instruments from other families.) As for the acoustic qualities - each instrument in the family acts quite different in this respect, and that really affects what's needed for balance. Many members of the family aren't even the same across their entire range! The Eb being such a high instrument has a quite piercing sound which easily cuts through the entire ensemble, and you need more than one about like you need twenty piccolos on the Stars and Stripes Forever - some people still do it, but it's a dumb ass idea. The altissimo and clarion registers of the Bb are equally piercing, but the throat tones and chalumeau register often less so, so the register of the instrument where the part spends most of its time must be taken into account. This combined with the overall concept of pyramid balance (which is what we have used in every band I've been in from junior high to college and semi-professional, not perfectly equal balance, and most choirs don't use that either) is why you often wind up with "bottom heavy" Bb sections - more players on 2nd or 3rd part than 1st. Alto, bass, and contra act exactly opposite - chalumeau is quite full and powerful; throat and clarion are often weak, and on some instruments altissimo notes hardly speak at all. In a chamber context such as a clarinet choir, a composer will use this property wisely, and delegate to the alto and basset mainly the notes that fall too high to be comfortable for a bass, but too low to be vibrant or reachable for a Bb. In symphonic band this is again often meted by the needs of the ensemble as a whole, but a single low clarinet working in its chalumeau range can easily balance Bb parts manned by 2 or 3 players without getting a blasty or spread tone - the larger size of the instrument simply allows more air to be put through it. This is fairly universal, which is why across the band lower voices tend to have fewer personnel than higher ones. So yeah, given both of those factors, one alto per band is generally fine. I think the reason it's become maligned is that 1. Grainger's weird shit aside it's not a soloistic instrument and its parts are usually doubled/cued elsewhere, so it's easy to consider it part of the fat that gets trimmed for a reduced wind ensemble-type instrumentation or a school band that may be struggling with numbers anyway and 2. it's an expensive instrument to purchase and maintain, and does Not play well when it's ill-maintained, and again, usually doubled elsewhere - so again in that educational environment especially where funding is often super-tight, it gets cut as unnecessary excess. [In case the username didn't clue you in, I'm probably one of the more experienced people on this topic you'll run across - have played alto (as well as Bb, bass, and contra) in many ensembles in highschool, college and semi-professionally; alto was the instrument I competed with in highschool, making All-State as well as several first divisions at solo and ensemble. I have played more alto clarinet music than most modern band composers will ever write, lol]
the band that i played in last year had literally 11 clarinets and one bass clarinet and 2 others that did both and one other that sometimes played contra-alto. the saxophone section had 4 altos 1 tenor(who wasn't very good) and one bari(who made 1st chair district) and the bari was still audible over the entire band while i could barely hear the altos. i asked my band director if i could play tenor as a secondary. she said no. so i went out on facebook and asked if anyone had a trumpet that i could play in the band(because that makes sense). by dad bought me a trumpet that... died.... i currently have an etude model trumpet that works very excellent. Im getting off topic. well my last year saxophone section was ... decently .... balanced. clarinets not so much.
I didn't go through all of the comments, but... didn't see these names: J.D. Parran, Douglas Ewart, Vinny Golia, Hamiet Bluiett, Petr Kroutil, Joe Lovano or Gianluigi Trovesi. Hullo?
Interesting info on balance... but it doesn't really answer the question of why people hate the alto! I'm starting to think that maybe people ~don't~ really hate it at all! (I've always loved the range, and since I stumbled into a staggeringly good deal on one years ago it didn't take much convincing to get me to switch from bass. For my kinda music though, it doesn't much matter which it is - sort of avant garde improvisational. Not playing currently, but hope to get back to it.
I want to feel that part of the reason is the clarinet range being so enormous that they can, and often do, overlap voices. 3rd Bb will often times go down into tenor range and bass will often jump up into tenor. Realistically, that makes the Alto Clarinet and the EB Contraalto reduntant most of the time aside form providing some extra sound texture
As a Bb clarinet who’s working on a loaned Alto Clarinet (I’m pretty sure it’s base is Eb) oml it’s so goofy… it’s smaller in person than you and the left pointer finger key looks like a fishy 😅 I’m probably ADHD
I own and play a Noblet alto, and play a Noblet bass (the bass, sadly, is very resistant and fights me in the upper clarion register). I'm fortunate that I can hold my own as a solo player on either part against the rest of the clarinet section, thanks to having previously played contrabass and out-muscling a tuba section. As some of the comments mention, the big problems I see with the alto (and sometimes with the bass) is not necessarily the instrument (though lack of maintenance does cripple a horn), but rather a poor player on the instrument (and the better players refusing to play the auxiliary clarinets), poor mouthpiece/reed combinations, and poor orchestration. There have been a number of pieces I've played where an alto could safely be omitted because it's so well doubled, either with the bass or soprano clarinets, or elsewhere in the band. I find that many composers and arrangers/transcribers don't know what to do with the alto, or what it's capable of. In my own compositions and symphony transcriptions, I've made it a point to give the alto critical, undoubled lines. While this may limit the chances of the piece being played, these are pieces that would make most high school bands faint of heart anyway -- Rachmaninoff 2, in the original key, for example.
It doesn't really explain why people hate the Alto. Most symphonies that run 3 clarinets have the 3rd doubling bass clarinet so really, the music isn't there for people to specialize in Alto clarinets. Also, I feel that because alto saxes are more prevalent in concert and military bands, they have taken over for the alto clarinet.
Clarinets in the orchestra have a vastly different function than do clarinets in the band. In the orchestra, ever clarinetist is a soloist: in the band, all but the top players are section members. Just because an Alto Saxophone has a similar transposition and range does not mean one can substitute for the other.
As a bass clarinetist myself, I must agree that balance is the biggest issue the alto clarinet has against it. I experience it every day.
Update: I'm in college now. This is still the case. We don't have Alto Clarinets (our director thinks their only use is firewood) but we do have 11 Bbs, 2 Basses, a Contra-alto, and a contrabass (me!). In the spring semester he plans to diminish the size of our section to 6-8 Bb Players. The balance is still going to struggle but I can't wait to hear our truly balanced clarinet section. Lol
Oh, and an Eb Clarinet. I'm dumb.
@@bclislife How is it now?
@@bclislife 4 years later, i assumed if you graduated, what happened?
*gasp* BASS CLARINET BUDDY
It looks like a clarinet and a saxophone had a child, and I think it’s a beautiful child who deserves love
I give you points for making the effort at all, but you haven't really addressed the question you pose.
The alto has been my main clarinet for over thirty years, and I think I can give a more comprehensive insight as to why the instrument is "hated".
First of all, who hates it? I don't hate it. Berlioz didn't hate it: In his Treatise on Orchestration and Instrumentation he said, "It is a very beautiful instrument which ought to take its place in all well-established orchestras." Percy Grainger didn't hate it: he wrote some beautiful solo passages for it. Gianluigi Trovesi doesn't hate it: he's used it as one of his principle solo instruments on at least 20 albums. Composers don't seem so much to hate the instrument, as to be indifferent to it -- or to ignore it entirely.
But plenty of band directors and orchestra conductors seem to hate it.
And, more importantly, a lot of clarinetists seem to hate it.
The main reason the instrument has a bad rep among players because of what I call the "viola syndrome".
The conductor of an amateur ensemble -- such as a middle school, high school, or college band or orchestra -- never knows from one season/semester to the next exactly what instruments he/she's going to have available, and, unlike professional ensembles, they can't just go out and recruit additional musicians to fill missing ranks.
Solution? For the sake of balance (or just to supply missing pieces of harmony), some players get "reassigned" -- often against their will -- to other instruments.
Some of the stragglers among the 2nd violins, for example, (who may not have been practicing as much as they should) get switched to viola, so the conductor can have at least 3 or 4 violas to pit against his 37 violins.
The band equivalent of this is the trombone or French horn player who gets moved to baritone or tuba -- and the 3rd clarinet player who gets moved to alto clarinet.
So right from the start, you have the instrument being played by less skilled players, who may resent being required to play it in the first place.
Adding insult to injury, as you point out, since the alto is considered a "secondary" instrument, the conductor/school likely hasn't invested in the best $14,000 Buffet professional model alto, but in the cheapest plastic instrument they could find, quite likely used, and often not even reconditioned.
So now you have an angry, unskilled performer playing on a balky, unresponsive instrument.
Taking things one lever further, the bulk of the majority of alto clarinet band parts -- I speak from experience -- contain little or no solo material, and only rarely even an independent harmonic voice. Usually the alto clarinet is required to alternate between doubling the 3rd Bb clarinets, and doubling the Eb alto saxes, between counting through long deserts of rests.
Besides making for a hugely boring part, this situation presents yet another obstacle: the alto is frequently criticized for being difficult or impossible to play in tune. Anyone who has ever worked with an amateur wind ensemble knows that when the high clarinets drift off pitch they frequently tend to play sharp; while when the saxophones drift off pitch, they tend to play flat. The poor alto clarinet, alternately doubling both parts, is handed the impossible task of either simultaneously maintaining two mutually exclusive tuning references, or of continually making (often considerable) intonation adjustments that are most likely beyond his/her current skill level.
So now you have an angry, unskilled performer, wrestling a balky, unresponsive instrument, playing a boring part, in a context that pretty much guarantees that they will be frequently scolded for being out of tune, regardless of their best efforts.
This is not a formula for making beautiful music.
Nor is it a formula for making anyone fall in love with the instrument.
The players feel like they are being punished by having to play it (for reasons they don't quite understand); other musicians in the group hear the result and think ("damn! I'm glad they didn't make ME play that"); the conductor, trying to pull it all together, thinks ("why the hell does anyone write for this instrument? I'm glad I don't have to deal with more than one or two at a time!")
And any composers in earshot think "that instrument sounds crappy; guess I'll avoid it, and write violin sonatas for Joshua Bell, instead".
And a vicious cycle is initiated.
Those of us who love the alto clarinet are working hard to try to break this cycle.
We use the alto all we can; we improvise with it; we write transcriptions of famous melodies for it; we compose new and exciting music for it. We keep and maintain quality instruments, and we devote ourselves to practicing ON the alto, and not treating it as a mere "auxiliary" instrument, to be picked up only when our Bb soprano gets stolen.
We strive to play it well, and to be heard doing so by as many as possible.
Always hoping to someday break the cycle, and elevate the alto to it's proper place.
Progress is being made, but it's an uphill struggle.
This. I just kinda saw this video and thought it'd be interesting to watch, but I've never heard anything about its balance. As much as that makes sense, it's totally mute compared to all the hurdles the instrument has to deal with. Pretty much every instrument that dared to call itself alto is dead for the same few reasons. You need to have a reason for the instrument to exist and you need players to actually want it. Alto range doesn't require a ton of instrumentation. French Horn is going no where. Alto Sax is unbeatable. What else do you need and who's going to play it?
And if you don't think the players are an important detail, or I'm being too school-centric, look at the massive pile of obsolete instruments generated by attempts to replace or at least provide a marching capable French Horn. The one that finally stuck is the worst sounding of all of them. Seems like some military bands have just given up on marching instruments altogether.
Thank you for addressing the issues. I've more or less heard and read the same thing from various sources. Credit goes to you for doing something to bring this beautiful instrument out of the shadows.
Great comment. Can you recommend some great alto clarinet pieces to listen to?
Wow! Wow! Wow! Well ya, YOU answered dam well to "why the alto clarinet is so hated" ! This made it all clear and obvious! I hope many people will read your comment and understand better. You even gave me a sudden desire to try that instrument! Thank you! 😃
I'm a real fan of the alto clarinet; I think it's a very versatile and expressive instrument. As a composer I remember being told not to write for it when I began writing for band about twenty years ago. I ignore that bad advice. I do like to include parts for it, and give it solos.
I would like to write a concerto for alto and symphony orchestra one day. It certainly deserves more respect.
anyone who plays any clarinet or oboe earns my respect :3
What about bassoon?
tuba maybe?
I play a the soprano, alto, and bass clarinet
Salina Cummings Aye xD
Salina Cummings Bari sax😅
hey, here's a question: WHY DO PEOPLE JUST HAVE TO BASH MY INSTRUMENT.
I'm certainly not bashing it. I'm one of its biggest advocates.
Hayden Robinson EXACTLY!! IVE PLAYED ALTO, BASS AND Bb CLARINET FOR THREE YEARS AND PEOPLE BE DISSIN FOR NO REASON
Their mad it’s trying to be an alto sax
It has an unpleasing sound
Francis Four That's only if you're a bad clarinetist, my friend.
I played the Alto for many years in a local community concert band. Actually two of them. I was the only one in one of those bands, the other band had 3 altos. Pretty rare. One problem with the alto is that its often considered merely as a "doubling" instrument on parts that already have cover, so they're not seen as needed. However, after many years playing in concert bands I noticed my parts quite often jumped around range and where support was really needed throughout the music. In the band that had 3 altos, it really did lend a lot of support and strength to a line in a composition the composer felt needed to really be heard. I had tons of fun playing this instrument due to how often my part changed from supporting the bass line all the way up to melody. There are is a large portion of concert band music that feature Soli lines with the Alto, often times going unheard since it is deemed "unnecessary". I was lucky enough to be apart of a concert band that always adhered as best it could to covering any instrument that had a part, we even had a dedicated contrabassoon. After being apart of this, I can say the alto does add in its own merits as long as there is proper balance.
Sure, there are some compositions that exclude an alto part entirely. Sadly, many directors often give an alto player the alto sax part since...well...it has "alto" in its name. Most times, alto parts are written doubling bassoon and that is the range where the alto has its most strength. In smaller bands, the alto can easily substitute a bassoon if there are plenty of clarinets and no bassoon player. But, then again....the alto has "no utility" according to the large majority of directors.
There's also the issue with conductors that they see the instrument to be often finicky, stuffy, and generally out of tune. I NEVER had any of these issues and was often complimented about how big and full of a tone I could produce out of it. Generally I find that players often use inadequate mouthpieces and reeds. The horns themselves aren't the problem, if in good condition. I used a cheap Vito alto I purchased from ebay. Thing sounded fantastic. However, I didn't skimp on the mouthpiece and found one that was suited for ME. And always use actual alto reeds....often times people substituted sax reeds which are terrible to use on the alto and simply don't fit. They're too big!! The biggest tip I had learned was to use weaker reeds....no stronger than a 2....2.5 MAX.
These are just my opinions though on the alto in the concert band. I have no experience in a clarinet choir. But, I could go on about how the alto really does need to be re-instated into the modern concert band...along with a few other forgotten members.
Can you help me understand on how the alto clarinet sounds so different from the alto sax
I wondered why nobody plays alto clarinet. I think it's a cool instrument. I've never seen anybody play an alto clarinet in real life or in a band anywhere. And yet there's an alto clarinet in alot of sheet music I see.
I've personally played the alto clarinet in a clarinet Quartet (2 Bb's, 1 alto, 1 bass). It was awsome. But the clarinet , which i borrowed from the local Music school, needed a bit of work to perform as it should.
personally played alto clarinet in 2 bands and clarinet ensemble. loved the instrument...
My band has 4 alto clarinets
I play Alto Clarinet in our schools Jazz Band. The school only owns 2, and 1 is horrible sounding so luckily I got the good one.
I play.
when you watch someone rant about clarinets!
Brooke Ziemba never thought I would hear a rant on clarinets xD
Ready to hear some heresy?
I played alto clarinet in my high school's jazz band.
pukalo [CDN] That’s actually very cool! 👍🏻
Your profile is a bass clarinet
I played some contra alto in mine :)
I played bass clarinet in mine and pretended really hard to be a tenor sax
I play tenor sax
I currently play Bb clarinet and Eb clarinet, but I've always wanted to get an alto clarinet too. To me, it's kind of like the viola of concert band. Most normal people wouldn't even know what it is, it gets made fun of quite a bit by the rest of the orchestra, and usually doesn't get fantastic parts written for it. But I think it has a really beautiful sound- rich and expressive in it's lower range, somewhat like the cello. I think the alto clarinet has that same sort of tone, relative to the clarinet section, and it has a lot of potential that few composers really take advantage of.
What a great 'speech' on issues with the alto clarinet. It can definitely be used as a general perspective on the balance in a band.I play the bassoon in a concert band and am typically doubled by either the 4 tubas or the 2 euphoniums, and sometimes both instruments. Very rarely I do have 'my own' melody/voice where you can pick out the bassoon sound. As I see it, it is mostly down to bad arranging. Bad arrangers usually have 'a core' of instruments they score their arrangements for and then copy-paste to the other instruments in the band just because they just happen to be there. These 'forgotten' instruments are often oboe, cor anglais, bassoon, bass clarinet, tenorsax and baritonesax. Furthermore, conductors are often themselves brassplayers and therefore primarily concentrate on their own kind.
You're exactly right. That's one issue I took up in my new book on band orchestration. Those "forgotten" instruments actually form the heart of the band.
This is so true. Very agreeable and I sadly have played all of those instruments
Parts in bands are frequently doubled because the publisher has to allow for different instrumentation - one size fits all. In the United States, early in the 20th century there was a movement to stardardize wind ensemble instrumentation, but band leaders couldn't agree - and it was impossible to expect every group would have the same instruments. The standard would have included alto and bass clarinet, but that ended up being a wish list. When my marching band had to play a classical piece in the mid-1960s, we had to rent alto and bass clarinets for the season.
The tendency you described (writing for a "core" of instruments and then proceeding to "copy-paste [the parts] to the other instruments in the band just because they just happen to be there") means that this "bad arranging" is better suited for the pipe organ instead of the concert band, at least in my opinion. With a pipe organ, it is virtually effortless to effect such transformations (by drawing different stops) such that a composer can write what's essentially a modified piano piece with timbre suggestions that the organist has the option to ignore. I would argue that writing in such a way (mainly utilizing homophonic texture) for large ensembles (like the concert band) fails to take advantage of the inherently polyphonic nature of a large ensemble that allows for such beauty as the second 'strophe' of "Lisbon" (from Lincolnshire Posy) or (from a more recent example) the scintillating ending of "Cathedrals" (by Kathryn Salfelder).
You're right about forgotten instruments, but one of the most left out instruments out there is actually a brass instrument, being my instrument of choice: the baritone horn. In the band I play in, whenever we get pieces from the classical era or a similar time frame, I just end up playing bassoon or trombone parts since baritone horn parts simply don't exist. Due to the baritone horn being replaced by other instruments, baritone and tenor sax as well as alto and bass clarinet have gotten more of a spotlight, and bassoon is used well in Bernstein's works, at least the ones I've performed. It's not odd to see lower woodwind instruments being left out from compositions, but one of the least known instruments is actually a brass instrument replaced by those lower woodwinds. Also, although baritone horn and euphonium are similar in range, their purpose is actually quite different. Baritone horn is very similar to French or alto horns as they usually play quicker notes in a higher range like the very few baritone parts I actually play, while euph has a slightly lower range and a more mellow sound, similar to a tuba pitch corrected up an octave.
In my experience the strongest clarinet players are seldom the ones that move to the harmony clarinets. So in addition to balance issues, you have weaker players on the instruments that need the biggest boost. Notice I said 'in my experience', your mileage may vary.
Chris Bonelli that's a really good point.
That is true for community and high school bands however once you get to professional ensembles all the players must audition so they are all very strong players
It's also possible to have a strong player who just doesn't have the range on the Bb to "compete". In the typically unbalanced high school clarinet section, you're better off putting your strongest 3rd player(s) onto the Bass if possible so the one or two BCs have a prayer of competing against the usually heavy mid range and upper instruments.
Modern arrangers tend to have the alto clarinet double the 3rds and/or the alto sax (assuming they put an alto clarinet part at all) so depending on your band's setup there may be more use for the alto than for yet another third.
This is true in my case. I'm a reasonably okay clarinet player (got 1s at my last competition over two years ago but will be returning next year on clarinet and tenor sax) but haven't tried playing any other members of the clarinet family than the Bb.
Yeah a lot of "bassism " in the clarinet world
Douglas Boucheix 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 only band people will get this this
Literally anyone will get this
Maddie Kate factsss
Maddie Kate same with tenors in choir
*sigh* looks like band jokes aren't your
forte
Thinking about buying one of these so I can continue playing after I graduate high school and not feel deprived when I no longer have access to my school's $13,000 Selmer bass clarinet anymore. I've always wanted to learn how to play alto regardless.
lol same!
Jan III Sobieski I would recommend a used leblanc or Noblet alto clarinet, they are pretty excellent
Matthew Banks I actually recently got a Selmer Bundy for pretty cheap, but I'll probably save up for a LeBlanc or Selmer Paris if I can ever find one for a good enough price. Thanks for the recommendation.
Good man. Be weary of the selmers. Low F, E, and Eb are unusably flat on those horns. Otherwise fine instruments
I haad to give up my Buffet bass when i graduated, so i feel your pain.
Check out Ridenour Bass clarinets. Pretty incredible quality and only around 3 grand
Who thinks that the bass clarinet should be the tenor clarinet, the contralto would be the baritone clarinet, and the contrabass could be the bass clarinet, and they would make a new contrabass clarinet.
But none of those new definitions are pertinent to the actual role that they fill or serve.
Bandestration good point. I just thought they the new definitions looked more accurate to their saxophone counterparts
You can't base clarinet names on saxophones. Clarinets are really two-range instruments, whereas saxophones are a single range.
Yeah. I just thought it would be fun to do
An improved alternative could be:
Sopranino in Ab (Piccolo)
Soprano in Eb (Eb)
Alto in Bb (Bb)
Tenor in Eb (Alto)
Baritone in Bb (Bass)
Bass in Eb (Contra-alto)
Sub-bass in Bb (Contrabass)
I was in Chicago in 2006 when I met a street musician playing an Alto clarinet. I said to him that you are the first street musician I have ever met playing an alto clarinet. He said I was the first person he had met who knew it was an alto clarinet. I played bass clarinet in high school.
I love the alto clarinet, and bass clarinet. I played Bass Clarinet in jazz band (yes really) did the tenor sax part, and it added a sweet sound layer. The alto would do the same, could work even with an Alto sax, or tenor, it's cool that way.
The alto clarinet is a gorgeous instrument that fills the large gap between the soprano and bass clarinet. That there are innumerable parts in the concert band literature, whether good, bad or indifferent, is reason enough to insist that the instrument is fielded properly, like any other required instrument. Its importance in the clarinet choir is not subject to debate. And although it is obvious enough that the alto suffers from some amount of neglect and therefore disparagement, for multiple and interconnected reasons, there are enough sympathetic fans, not to mention extant instruments, to preclude any sort of sudden extinction. Embarrassingly, the alto clarinet's worst enemies are the very scholastic/musical institutions assigned with its care and feeding - apathetic composers, directors, teachers and clarinetists themselves. That said, it is a mistake to throw everybody under the bus in the blame-game, for it is also these very people who champion the instrument, and who's enthusiasm will trump the more unimaginative elements of our musical organizations. I believe most of the work in sustaining/revitalizing the interest in the alto clarinet falls upon the shoulders of the clarinetists' themselves; through their shear numbers, they are in the best position for this. Despite the limited reach and scope of the concert band, the alto must be embraced, defended and supported. We have to own this instrument. Naysayers will always find something to moan about. Let them; those viewpoints are never important anyway, noisy as they may be. In the meantime, I believe the future of the alto clarinet is secure.
I saw this joke years ago, ..What's the definition of a nerd? Someone who actually owns an alto clarinet...so that makes me a nerd!
Make
Alto Clarinet
Great
Again
I loved playing an alto clarinet in high school. The lower tones sounded better to me than the high tones of a B flat clarinet.
I was just given a clarinet for my birthday. My ignorance of woodwind is notable, I didn't even know there was such a thing as an alto, let alone any controversy, so thank you, subscribed.
In 6th grade I wanted to play clarinet so bad, but they were full so I started on bass clarinet. Fast forward to high school. All the bass clarinet spots were taken by upperclassmen, so I played contra alto. At first, I was pissed both times. But then that first warm, yet sorrowful tone I produced made me instantly fall in love. Midway through high school, I picked up bass guitar and was in a band for a little bit after high school. Couple of years back I got to talking with someone in a bar and they asked me why I chose to play bass. I replied, I didn't choose bass, bass chose me. I wish I could afford at least a bass clarinet. A contra alto is what I really want though.
What the hell are you talking about????? I love all clarinets in the world!!!!!!!
I like the contralto clarinet and bass saxophone. Baritones sound awesome too!
And yes, I must agree that having voices balanced out is also important for getting a full proper blend and range of sounds in an orchestra.
I played bass clarinet and the alto was just as important and helped balance things out
I own an alto clarinet, and it's fun. I can play to the top of the range without peeling paint off the walls, and at the bottom it's quite effective for lines you would ordinarily consider characteristic of the bass clarinet. Then again, I'm using it in settings where I'm the only woodwind of _any_ type, which allows me a great deal of latitude in instrument selection.
I think the real problem is that the clarinet already has an enormous range of well over three octaves, making it difficult to slot anything into the intermediate E♭/F holes in between octaves.
When I write for my minimalist "orchestra" or "band", which I render with a DAW, balance is as simple as twiddling some controls. Thus, no parts are doubled, not even the strings. Sometimes I will double the string section so that I can split parts or have solo and ripieno, but that is because I need them rather than for balance purposes. I use E♭, B♭, and bass clarinets simply because that's what's most useful while keeping the numbers down. I would leave the actual balance problems to the performers if these arrangements should see live performance.
One of my pieces does swap out the B♭ clarinet for an alto while retaining the E♭ and bass, because that's just what I needed in terms of range.
Ummm, I have NEVER heard anything bad about the Alto clarinet (although I've never heard or played it) And im in choir so this is making sense
Majincheese Yeah me neither, I'm in band but we have no altos and in orchestra, where there's only really B flat (and sometimes A) soprano clarinets and B flat bass clarinet. But orchestras do have violas which seem to be in kind of a similar situation to altos.
@@duck9387 no it is more of a tenor sax.
And no, it sounds like a regular clarinet, just half an octave lower. And the bottom end of alto clarinets are rich and dark, the top end sounds like bass clarinet altissimo, stands out (in a good way).
Really the pitches of clarinets are:
Eb-clarinet: soprano
Bb-clarinet: alto
Alto clarinet: tenor
Bass clarinet: baritone*
Contralto clarinet: bass
Contrabass clarinet: subbass
*Yeah: _Although its name is bass clarinet, its pitch is baritone. The real bass member of the clarinet family is the contralto clarinet._
Anyway, the Bb-clarinet has the role of the women's voices (soprano, mezzo-soprano and alto), while alto clarinet has the role of tenor, bass clarinet has the role of baritone and contralto and contrabass have the role of bass and contrabass. And Eb-clarinet has the role of sopranino or piccolo, so the clarinet section of the 7:25 is 8 pitched. But do the all clarinets play at the same time?
I usually say Eb is sopranino, Bb soprano, Alto is alto, bass clarinet is baritone, contra alto is bass, contrabass is subbass
Saxophones are massively doubled in bands too. Bass saxophones already are almost never seen. There's also usually two tenor parts and sometimes a third alto.
sitting here, watching this video, while noodling away on a contra-alto clarinet. Irony. Our school owns 3 Contra-alto clarinets, one Contra-bass clarinet, and NO alto clarinets. Yes, you heard me, NONE. I am a Bari sax player who is self teaching clarinet over Christmas break, hence contra-alto, as I can at least get reed commonality. (It is so quiet :>) I usually play on a 5 on Bari, or the closest I can find. We have enough Bari players (four!) , enough to easily drown everyone else should I also get involved. My mouthpiece is a berg Larsen 120/2. Needless to say, I can become very loud, VERY quickly should I need to. So, I would usually sneak an alto Clarinet part, and read up an octave, and use altissimo to go above normal range should I find myself needing to. Band director finally noticed. Gave me a pat on the back and told me to keep it up. So now I am taking matters into my own hands, and learning Contra-alto, so I can have a bit more projection, and taking things up an octave. Besides, after altissimo with a size 5 reed, anything on clarinet feels like no lip whatsoever, and I LOVE it ;). And for those curious, I cannot play alto sax anymore, period, because I cannot find a reed anywhere hard enough that it doesn't quit and so soft after about 30 minutes playing. Doesn't bother me though. I hate alto sax ;).
Might I suggest playing on a softer reed or a more closed facing mouthpiece? What you're using might be appropriate for jazz band but is totally out of place in a concert band. It also sounds like you're biting the reed, which will cause you to "need" a harder reed. There should be far less pressure from the embouchure.
That said, a more appropriate thing to do would be read straight from tuba parts and use the E-flat/bass clef sight transposing technique.
I haven't played with others for years, so when I play it's pure self-indulgence, and for me the most enjoyable clarinet to play is the alto. It simply fits into the range I prefer to play in.
The bass and Bb completely and COMFORTABLY overlap the alto's range. A good bass clarinetist can easily play from a Bb1 to a C5 (concert pitch) and a good Bb clarinetist can easily play from D3 to G6. And neither of these players will struggle in dynamic or tone. The only thing an alto can do better than a bass is ultra-high notes, in which case there's no reason not to give that part to 1st or 2nd clarinets. If you need more of that range (and you have the necessary manpower), just call for more 3rds, more basses, or both. It's a similar story with the contralto.
The clarinet has a fantastic range, and because of this there's really no reason to have more than Eb, Bb, Bass, Contra. There are zero gaps in the range with those four. Not even "oh but those notes are hard" gaps. The alto's range is just completely irrelevant.
A good alto can find its place in a clarinet choir, and I bet it could be great as a solo instrument, but the range seriously just isn't relevant in the context of an entire band. There are other, better options.
During my time playing in school and amateur adult bands, I never saw or knew any other alto clarinets played apart from my own. As an adult player, I sure became popular whenever my fellow clarinets wanted to play Mozart's divertimentos trios and quartets.
Personally, I love the alto clarinet.
I played on one for years in the wind ensemble, jazz workshop, symphony orchestra of Walnut Creek...even the praise and worship band at church and my one contemporary jazz sessions.
Personally, I don't understand why people seem to have issues with harmony or anything else when it comes to the alto clarinet. It's an alto instrument, so it's going to be similar to the viola and/or other alto voiced instruments.
I don't fully agree with you at the point that a single alto clarinet will not be heard when playing with six Bb clarinets. The key to be heard lies in to play extremely clear. I could play the alto with 20 Bb's and still be Heard. If you know that there is one lonely alto gut, let him be heard, not necessarily by taking down your own part, but playing as your part were a Little bit less important. The thing about orchestral playing is to not overpower another player. But you do make awsome vidoes! And alto clarinets are awsome!
I play Eb clarinet and Bb clarinet, and I wish our clarinet section was this varied. Instead, we have me, 3 other Bb’s and one Bass 😅
It's the alto curse... similar to the violas, "alto-horns"/"tenor-horns" (whatever those are), alto flutes, alto trombones, high bassoons ("tenoroons") and I guess english horns and heckelphones and the "oboe de amore"... by having a somewhat middling range where you don't get the melody lines, but you're also not low enough that you get low melody lines that the composer sticks to heftier instruments or the top end of lighter bass parts.
For some reason, alto and tenor saxes, horns, tenor trombones don't seem to be too affected by this "curse" even though they're kindof in the middle too... perhaps because they can blare loud enough to get noticed ;3
Love it! Played it for many years!!
Clarinet and Alto Clarinet is just like Violin and Viola, what a shame they are great instruments.
The C clarinet also needs more love!
When he said a single bass clarinet I felt that straight to the heart I hadn’t even heard of an alto clarinet till I moved to a bigger school then we had two altos and I was the second bass clarinet and a single contra bass I felt at home but there was like 12-16 regular clarinets nothing higher but he speaks the truth we won many competitions cause our sax section was similar so was our flutes
My band has nine sopranos, ~4 basses, and one contra alto. The soprano section is divided evenly in thirds (2nd part here, 4th chair). The contra alto seems to double with bari sax, and the basses do their own thing.
the best solution to the issue! though, on my alto, I can balance against 6 Bbs....it takes a extra work though
In Grainger's Lincolnshire Posy, the extra alto saxophone part is actually only a substitute for the soprano saxophone when the latter is not available. So there are effectively five sax parts in this piece.
I think one problem with alto clarinets is that some have been made with very wide bores and so have a thick, dull tone. The Bundy Resonite Eb alto that I played in junior high school would fit this description. But others have been made with narrower bores, and I expect should then blend better with soprano clarinets. Secondly, your point about typically having only one alto clarinet per band is well taken. In an article about Vincent Persichetti in The Instrumentalist magazine years ago, a list was given of the proposed standard instrumentation for a proper band, developed by a panel of composers and directors including Persichetti. It was especially interesting that they proposed having 12 Bb clarinets, and these only divided into first and second so six first, six second), then 6 Eb alto clarinets, effectively taking the place of third Bb clarinets and equally balancing each section of Bb clarinets. It seems a wise proposal.
I'd love to see that Persichetti article. Do you know any details on it?
Actually, my research has shown that the larger bore instruments, like the LeBlanc, are usually better in tune. The narrow bore leads to some tuning problems (like the Selmer).
I'm trying to look it up... Unfortunately, I don't have access at the moment to my file in which I most likely have a copy of that article.
If you could find it and send me a link to it, I'd be most gracious.
Bandestration I'll keep you posted...
My gf plays the alto clarinet and I play the contra-alto clarinet. Perfect match.
Try this: Eb Clarinet, Bb Clarinet, Alto Clarinet, Bass Clarinet. SATB, you're done.
Which works perfectly well when there is a single player on a part in a clarinet quartet.
The clarinet has a wider range than the saxophone. What can be achieve by a sax ensemble can be achieved by a clarinet ensemble, BECAUSE the clarinet has a wider range than the sax. Eb clarinet+Bb clarinet+Bass clarinet covers what 4 different types of sax can do.
But what about them Contra-alto :( equality for all clarinets
What about them?
they need some love too :(
I think you'll find, if you look elsewhere on my channel, some extra-special Contra-Alto love.
Niraa Tae-nkYou I’m a Contraalto clarinet player
Noah they thought bass clarinet wasn't low enough so they made the contra alto then they made lower ones but no one uses it cause there expensive
I am a BB soprano and bass clarinet player and the alto add to the fullest richness and depth to the ensemble
This is a large part of the reason why bands just don't sound as good; the balances are all off, people are always doubling across sections, and wind players in band are usually not as high of caliber as those that play in orchestras.
We need a wind ensemble revival; but it's cost prohibitive.
In professional settings, the players are equal in caliber to those in orchestras, but otherwise, you're spot on.
You nitpicky skivvy! That's why I said, "usually". Thanks!
My clarinet section in my band has 5 Bb, me on the alto, and one on the bass. My friend next to me said she couldn't even hear me in any of the songs we played at our concert. I hate how anything below the Bb is just kinda not used
The problem is there are too many bad players playing them, in my experience at least.
The bass sax is probably less common than an alto clarinet...
I'm the only alto clarinet player in my honors band, and i love it a lot, but i do joke that my instrument is kind of the middle child in terms of the clarinets
That moment when your band has 12 clarinets, 4 bass clarinets, and one contra
I think the alto clarinet should've been called the tenor clarinet, and the average Bb clarinet should be an alto, it just makes more sense.
It's generally because the alto clarinet was invented in the 1840s to make up for the fact that the basset horn was still a problem to play then. Players could then play the Mozart basset horn parts on the 'tenor' clarinet in Eb, and just transpose the parts up a tone. So it is essentially a basset horn in Eb or a poor man's basset horn. It lacks the tone of the basset horn and the range too so it found a place in the wind ensemble like the saxophone. There are however couple of orchestral solos including Le CID by Massenet.
You have to realize that my whole approach is from a band/wind ensemble point of view and not strictly orchestral. Do you have any documentation on the Le Cid parts for Alto Clarinet?
Bandestration I was just being factual and wasn't referring to a band set up. For reference read Albert Rice's book, 'From the Clarinet d'Amore to the Contra Bass'
I've seen the book, but don't have it readily available. It's a bit out of my price range. Otherwise, I do understand the early history of the instrument fairly well.
Bandestration get it and you'll understand the history better. May well change the premise of your video...
Knowing the history won't change the premise of modern usage. This is about composition and orchestration rather than history. I have a feeling you might have missed that point.
In my band years, we had a plethora of clarinetists but we also had an alto clarinetist, two bass clarinetists and a contraband clarinetist. I'm using clarinetist a lot. They sounded great. Also playing in a n All-State band, we had three alto clarinetists and they were terrific. I see no problem with this instrument at all. It's a great instrument but this is coming from a trombone/euphonium/tuba player.
I meant contrabass. We didn't have any of those "illegal" clarinets.
@@jamesbrownjr.5074 The sort of clarinet in the dusty back corner of the band closet...
I own my own Alto Clarinet, and love it. However, I cannot find any place to use it
Many concert band pieces have parts for it, though not all. You'll need to be able to switch back and forth between Alto and B-flat or Bass.
Ok, thanks. P.S. I would love to buy your low c alto extension if you ever mass produce it
It's still in the pipeline, but it may be a while before anything is ever produced.
What kind of Alto do you have?
A 1922 open holed U.S.A Selmer Bundy
I am a bass clarinet player and I do have trouble being heard, but only do to the Baritone sax and most times trombone.
The decent alto clarinets are very expensive but play well. The beginner altos are inexpensive and are atrocious players. The bass clarinet and Bb soprano clarinet easily cover the alto clarinet range. The alto clarinet though has a very nice and unique sound and, when played well, is a nice addition to a group.
While you have interesting viewpoints on clarinet choir scoring, I am confused on your argument on the alto clarinet. My understanding for why it is disliked is because of band history and the perception of the basset horn. The history being that when placement of the clarinet section would happen, the lowest chair was assigned to alto clarinet (thought being a student could do less damage on a lower clarinet) and because of this trend of putting less skilled players on the alto, the results of the playing and subsequently the instrument itself became disliked. Thus instrument manufactures became less inclined to invest R&D (or high standards of manufacturing) into instruments that no one liked, which does not help the situation. As far has the basset horn, most clarinetists are familiar with the Mozart concerto and the fact that it was originally intended for basset horn (or a basset horn like instrument). From this familiarity, most college and professional ensembles will use basset horns to play alto clarinet parts when needed. It has simply become a more preferable option to the "bad rep" that the alto clarinet has developed. So most directors/players stay away from it.
The scenario you describe was/is indeed common, but it's an effect and not the cause. Directors would move them to Alto to cause less harm. The Alto part caused less harm because composers didn't write exacting parts for it. Composers didn't write exacting parts for it because directors would often leave it out because it didn't make any difference. It didn't make any difference because directors never employed them in large enough numbers. It's akin to having only a single Viola in the orchestra. One makes no difference. A section transforms the string section.
Basset Horn was never really a member of the band unless you look at 19th century Germanic Harmoniemusik. The Mozart was not written for Basset Horn, but for A Clarinet with a low C (or B as some research indicates). The term "basset" confuses some people and I tend to not use it in my own writing.
Concerning balance, I have found Henry Brant's "Textures and Timbres: an Orchestrator's Handbook" to be most helpful. His rule of thumb is that it takes two of the "classical" woodwinds (flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon) playing in unison to match the dynamic and fullness of one saxophone -- or one French horn. Then it takes two saxophones or horns playing in unison to match the dynamic of a trumpet, trombone, euphonium or tuba -- and similarly, four classical woodwinds in unison to do the same. I would like to see a band instrumentation developed to fulfill these criteria for balance.
That's one orchestration book I don't have. I probably should get it sooner or later. The saxophone rule I don't fully agree with. Sax completely depends on the mouthpiece. An original Sax mouthpiece means the volume is about equal to the other winds. A more modern or a jazz piece and the sax is nearly as loud as the brass.
As for your wanting to see a band orchestration/instrumentation developed to reflect that, that is exactly what I am doing in my symphony "The Forest of Dreams." It's the culmination of years of study of band and wind orchestration.
Though never playing any clarinets in my life I would lile to argue that the amount of clarinets im each section doesnt matter.(i've only played baritone sax and percussion) Alto and Bass clarinets will have a much deeper and rich sound as compared to the Bb clarinet. However just because there are more of fhe Bb clarinet and less of alto(or lack thereof) doesnt affect balance. Instrumentation yes they are unbalanced but musically we will never know until the band ays together. To me tenor and bass voices are the backbone to music and the upper voices sound empty without it. The alto fills in the roll and(assuming) has a nice tenor sound paired with the bass clarinet will be an extremely well made low reed section. Alto clarinets are still valid, though rarely used and rarely used well in bands, can be a huge impact on bands that use them.
I don't dislike the alto clarinet because of its sound, but rather its history. A little-known fact about the alto clarinet is actually its relationship with the baritone horn, being my instrument of choice. There's a reason why in many classical pieces arranged by Boosey and Hawkes (considered the leading arranger of classical music), especially Gustav Holst's First Suite, the baritone horn part specifically is randomly gone. Arrangements tried making the shift to a more modern woodwind feel in music, and the baritone horn was scrapped due to a, "lack of character and ineffectiveness," and given to instruments like tenor and baritone sax as well as, again, the alto clarinet. If notes weren't applicable in any woodwind part they were left out completely. The arrangement didn't sound as it was supposed to with the complete absence of the baritone horn and instead being replaced by mainly the alto clarinet and tenor saxophone. Decades later, it was decided that the baritone horn part would live on in the euphonium part rather than being a part for its own instrument in later Boosey and Hawkes revisions, and the alto clarinet was scrapped from a piece it never *really* belonged in. The only semblance of a specific baritone horn part was made in a revision made by Frederick Fennel, where he also claimed that the alto clarinet's attempt to replace the baritone horn was a sad mistake made by some editor or other, and thought it better that the euphonium should play any notes lost from the baritone part rather than the alto clarinet as it has some semblance of tonal similarity. Again, it's not the alto clarinet's sound that is the issue, but rather what it tried doing to other instruments.
TL;DR: The alto clarinet isn't bad as an instrument per se, but it, along with all other woodwinds, has no business trying to replace other brass instruments like the baritone horn as it tried to do in classical pieces. Likewise, brass instruments should not try to replace woodwind parts, as each have their own unique strengths only applicable to them.
As far as I know, the Alto Clarinet replacing the Baritone Horn part in Holst is a singular occurrence and a rather curious one at that. I'm all in favor of returning permanently to the original scoring of the Holst Suites as the original scoring is far superior to the muck that been edited today.
@@BretNewtonComposer Very much agree. The best arrangement I could find was one made by Fredrick Fennel that mostly maintained the original instrumentation, but the ones distributed the most are Boosey and Hawkes arrangements that completely removed the baritone part. In the band I play in, we were given First Suite to read, but there were parts in recordings that weren't in baritone or euphonium parts, not even as a cue. I managed to get my hands on the baritone part in the Fredrick Fennel arrangement of the piece and play it mostly as it should've been. However, before I found out about the baritone part, the bandmaster had given the alto clarinet part with the scrapped baritone part within it to our alto saxophone section, since that was the closest thing we had to an alto clarinet. I didn't agree with the decision, but this was before we got our hands on the baritone part and discovered the story behind it and the alto clarinet part, and the bandmaster wasn't about to just take away the alto clarinet part from the sax section. As for pieces other than First Suite, the baritone part or ones meant for a B-flat saxhorn were given to a tenor saxophone or alto clarinet, with examples like Second Suite and Folk Song Suite (I'm not completely certain about those two specifically, but I know there's ones out there, even if there is a slight difference between baritone and B-flat saxhorn). It still amazes me how an entire committee of "professional" musicians and arrangers could make such questionable decisions at the time.
The balancing issue wouldn't be a problem, that is, if our school had an alto clarinet. Our band is minuscule, with 2 Bb clarinets, a bass clarinet, and me willing to play alto during some of the time when bassoon playing is limited by the scoring (jazz band). An alto clarinet would fit in fantastically.
Our band, returning to the problem of miniscule, has only me as the bassoon, no oboe, three flutes, a tuba, no euphonium or baritone, and four trombones. Notice I didn't talk about trumpets or saxophones. Well, this is where our high school band becomes super unbalanced. 1 obnoxious baritone saxophone (think muffled goose) a tenor saxophone, and 5 alto saxophones. That and like 10 trumpets.
much as I passionately love alto clarinet, you playing bassoon is much to important for your ensemble
props for considering doubling though
I agree with you in this one. When it comes to All State auditions, though, I will be auditioning on alto clarinet, bassoon, piccolo, and maybe oboe.
If I were your director, i'd consider converting four of the trumpets to French Horn, and suggest at least two alto players switch to clarinet.....that would help this group just a little bit, provided the players could handle the switch well
Hmm was 2nd clarinet that was moved to alto another reason is I always do the saxophone part even if there is a alto clarinet part but in our band there is a single alto saxophone so that’s more fair
I play all low clarinets (including alto) and I can say that the alto is not super useful in a band or any other kind of instrumental ensemble. The standard Bb soprano clarinet covers the range of the alto and soprano saxophone. The alto clarinet is not close in range to an alto saxophone, but actually closer to a low tenor or a high bari.
Alto instruments are always so hated on, except the saxophone
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My first wind instrument 🖤
I love the Alto Clarinet.
02:40 That is the standard, but US school and community bands generally have two sax 'players' for every clarinet musician, sometimes even more. Those saxes honk along with no concept of sound, blasting through any musicianship of the rest of the reeds. I am 55, and in all that time, I have never played in a wind ensemble where the sax players had any idea of what was going on. Trained seals at best. That has kept me in orchestras and brass bands.
Lmao. I played alto, we had 23 altos, so I switched to tenor and double on alto. Every four seconds, our conducted flips because someone can't read a freaking key signature.
It’s sad because I play sax and I agree
I like the balance of 9 Bb clarinets to 4 Eb alto saxophones.
i LOVE the alto!!! it's my favorite clarinet!!
What would be the specific function of the great bass and contrabass clarinet? Would they play the same part?
Years ago, I was told the altos have inherent intonation issues, which was why jazz guys generally go straight to bass clarinet when they want that sound.
The older Altos did have some issues, but the newer ones are good instruments.
I don’t hate it just I don’t like how small it is I want a biggest clarinet I play the bass clarinet
I played a little bass clarinet in my high school ensemble and I was lucky enough to start dating a girl whose stepdad is a band director so he ended up giving me one of the broken ones that his school would have had to just trash, but MAN if my high school band had had a contrabass clarinet position... I would have been ALLLLLLL over that.
It’s the viola of the clarinet family.
I haven't come across this situation, with only one alto, but the bands I've played in where I am on bass, contra-alto, and contra-bass clarinet, so those bands are very large compared to the 6 B flats, 1 alto, and 1 bass.
I’m a clarinetist and bass clarinetists and alto contrabass clarinetist and I’m the one in my band that is capable of play the bass clarinet to the contrabass alto clarinet. My band to be far is pretty small only got 3 clarinet not counting me so sometimes I struggle to be heard but I manage lol I have good air powerrr
We have a alto but it is in very bad shape but it’s opened holes so if we get it fixed it would be a very very very good instrument
played one foe a couple years in grade school. never knew the hate.
My band has 12 clarinets no alto clarinets and 2 bass clarinets i want to play alto but the band director thinks the alto clarinet is useless. Not true.
The Alto is a “Pinch hitter”- it can double the 3rd clarinet parts to really support them and also
reinforce the bass clarinet
lines by doubling them as Low as it can go
and then otherwise
mirroring the bass-line by playing it octave higher.
Sonically this sounds fantastic when the bass line is double-octaveD :)
I never hated the alto clarinet, and I do agree that a lot of auxiliary clarinets are neglected by band directors.
I feel perhaps rather than having two sopranos playing an alto voice, two altos playing a soprano, and two bass clarinets playing bass, it would be more fitting to have two altos playing alto voicing, and four bass clarinets, two playing tenor and two playing bass. My principal instrument is bass clarinet, and I find myself playing tenor lines often, usually in jazz charts but sometimes on band pieces where a bass clarinet part has gone missing. Bass and alto clarinets have a huge range, and a very beautiful, broader tone on mid to very high notes, which would fill out the middle of the sound of the ensemble much better than keeping them in the lower register. That, and your bass clarinets would have more interesting parts!
The alto part is usually very boring. If it isn't, then the tenor part is usually boring. If that isn't true, then the bass part is probably mostly just doing the root and a fifth. This is practical, simple part writing. Open any hymnal, join a choir, take music theory, whatever. You will notice this eventually. It doesn't have to be this way, but it takes some serious skill on the part of the composer. When I played in an orchestra early in my schooling as a kid, viola was not popular. I blame part writing.
Uhhhhh... what? This kind of fails to consider the sections you described in the context of the full ensemble, doesn't it? No one's going to say your flute section or tuba section are unbalanced because they're missing one extreme or the other of the range. It also fails to consider the natural acoustic qualities of various instruments and how that affects their blend with the rest of the ensemble.
The idea behind a large, fully manned symphonic band is in the name: imitate the symphony orchestra in depth and balance of sound, often playing transcriptions of pieces originally written for full orchestra. The way this pans out in the clarinet section is often: the first part is split into 1a and 1b, with these players filling the roles of the orchestral clarinet players; then the second and third clarinet parts (often joined with other instruments such as lower flute parts) fill the role of the first and second violins, respectively. The alto clarinet, along with other instruments across the band, steps into the viola role, the basses into the cello - again with parts often shared with other instruments - and the contra, again shared, into the double bass. Of course this isn't exactly 1:1 replacement - the first clarinets may join the rest of the Bb section for tutti passages and may have the concertmaster solos written into their part; the alto also sometimes joins horn lines; the bass also sometimes joins low brass, etc. But the overall point is that the balance considered in the context of the ensemble is what's important, not whether individual instrument families which may or may not span the entire range of the piano are balanced among themselves. As long as the alto clarinet is supported on that viola line by other middle voice instruments (eg. saxes, first bassoon when not playing its own orchestral part, etc.) the ensemble will sound correct. (To wit - wind ensemble instrumentation, which often reduces the clarinet section to two on each Bb part and one bass, with the eefer and harmony clarinets completely omitted, but still covers middle voices using instruments from other families.)
As for the acoustic qualities - each instrument in the family acts quite different in this respect, and that really affects what's needed for balance. Many members of the family aren't even the same across their entire range! The Eb being such a high instrument has a quite piercing sound which easily cuts through the entire ensemble, and you need more than one about like you need twenty piccolos on the Stars and Stripes Forever - some people still do it, but it's a dumb ass idea. The altissimo and clarion registers of the Bb are equally piercing, but the throat tones and chalumeau register often less so, so the register of the instrument where the part spends most of its time must be taken into account. This combined with the overall concept of pyramid balance (which is what we have used in every band I've been in from junior high to college and semi-professional, not perfectly equal balance, and most choirs don't use that either) is why you often wind up with "bottom heavy" Bb sections - more players on 2nd or 3rd part than 1st. Alto, bass, and contra act exactly opposite - chalumeau is quite full and powerful; throat and clarion are often weak, and on some instruments altissimo notes hardly speak at all. In a chamber context such as a clarinet choir, a composer will use this property wisely, and delegate to the alto and basset mainly the notes that fall too high to be comfortable for a bass, but too low to be vibrant or reachable for a Bb. In symphonic band this is again often meted by the needs of the ensemble as a whole, but a single low clarinet working in its chalumeau range can easily balance Bb parts manned by 2 or 3 players without getting a blasty or spread tone - the larger size of the instrument simply allows more air to be put through it. This is fairly universal, which is why across the band lower voices tend to have fewer personnel than higher ones.
So yeah, given both of those factors, one alto per band is generally fine. I think the reason it's become maligned is that 1. Grainger's weird shit aside it's not a soloistic instrument and its parts are usually doubled/cued elsewhere, so it's easy to consider it part of the fat that gets trimmed for a reduced wind ensemble-type instrumentation or a school band that may be struggling with numbers anyway and 2. it's an expensive instrument to purchase and maintain, and does Not play well when it's ill-maintained, and again, usually doubled elsewhere - so again in that educational environment especially where funding is often super-tight, it gets cut as unnecessary excess.
[In case the username didn't clue you in, I'm probably one of the more experienced people on this topic you'll run across - have played alto (as well as Bb, bass, and contra) in many ensembles in highschool, college and semi-professionally; alto was the instrument I competed with in highschool, making All-State as well as several first divisions at solo and ensemble. I have played more alto clarinet music than most modern band composers will ever write, lol]
the band that i played in last year had literally 11 clarinets and one bass clarinet and 2 others that did both and one other that sometimes played contra-alto. the saxophone section had 4 altos 1 tenor(who wasn't very good) and one bari(who made 1st chair district) and the bari was still audible over the entire band while i could barely hear the altos. i asked my band director if i could play tenor as a secondary. she said no. so i went out on facebook and asked if anyone had a trumpet that i could play in the band(because that makes sense). by dad bought me a trumpet that... died.... i currently have an etude model trumpet that works very excellent. Im getting off topic. well my last year saxophone section was ... decently .... balanced. clarinets not so much.
Welp, I made Texas All-State with it and my part was super cool in one of the pieces we played in my band (Symphonic Dances from West Side Story)
Bruh i love the alto clarinet and i dont even play it! (I want to learn someday)
I'm in a band of 27 and we have 2 tubas and two bass clarinets. Balance is a HUGE issue.
I didn't go through all of the comments, but... didn't see these names: J.D. Parran, Douglas Ewart, Vinny Golia, Hamiet Bluiett, Petr Kroutil, Joe Lovano or Gianluigi Trovesi. Hullo?
I am a alto clarinet player. And I love the playing it. fyi I also play alto sax.
I think the alto clarinet is pretty cool :)
I got to play an alto clarinet for one concert the 4 years I was in band. I want to get one for myself now though.
Interesting info on balance... but it doesn't really answer the question of why people hate the alto! I'm starting to think that maybe people ~don't~ really hate it at all! (I've always loved the range, and since I stumbled into a staggeringly good deal on one years ago it didn't take much convincing to get me to switch from bass. For my kinda music though, it doesn't much matter which it is - sort of avant garde improvisational. Not playing currently, but hope to get back to it.
I want to feel that part of the reason is the clarinet range being so enormous that they can, and often do, overlap voices. 3rd Bb will often times go down into tenor range and bass will often jump up into tenor. Realistically, that makes the Alto Clarinet and the EB Contraalto reduntant most of the time aside form providing some extra sound texture
As a Bb clarinet who’s working on a loaned Alto Clarinet (I’m pretty sure it’s base is Eb) oml it’s so goofy… it’s smaller in person than you and the left pointer finger key looks like a fishy 😅 I’m probably ADHD
I own and play a Noblet alto, and play a Noblet bass (the bass, sadly, is very resistant and fights me in the upper clarion register). I'm fortunate that I can hold my own as a solo player on either part against the rest of the clarinet section, thanks to having previously played contrabass and out-muscling a tuba section.
As some of the comments mention, the big problems I see with the alto (and sometimes with the bass) is not necessarily the instrument (though lack of maintenance does cripple a horn), but rather a poor player on the instrument (and the better players refusing to play the auxiliary clarinets), poor mouthpiece/reed combinations, and poor orchestration.
There have been a number of pieces I've played where an alto could safely be omitted because it's so well doubled, either with the bass or soprano clarinets, or elsewhere in the band. I find that many composers and arrangers/transcribers don't know what to do with the alto, or what it's capable of.
In my own compositions and symphony transcriptions, I've made it a point to give the alto critical, undoubled lines. While this may limit the chances of the piece being played, these are pieces that would make most high school bands faint of heart anyway -- Rachmaninoff 2, in the original key, for example.
It doesn't really explain why people hate the Alto. Most symphonies that run 3 clarinets have the 3rd doubling bass clarinet so really, the music isn't there for people to specialize in Alto clarinets. Also, I feel that because alto saxes are more prevalent in concert and military bands, they have taken over for the alto clarinet.
Clarinets in the orchestra have a vastly different function than do clarinets in the band. In the orchestra, ever clarinetist is a soloist: in the band, all but the top players are section members. Just because an Alto Saxophone has a similar transposition and range does not mean one can substitute for the other.