Why is there no Saxophone in the Orchestra?
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- čas přidán 4. 07. 2024
- The saxophone is one of the most popular instruments, so why is it not a regular in the orchestra? Contrary to what some people say, it's not because the sax "doesn't blend" - in fact, it was designed with blending in mind, and blends fantastically well with almost any instrument. The real reasons are largely historical to do with the cartel-like world of Parisian instrument manufacturers in the 19th Century, and the effect this had on the instrument's perception over the next 100 years.
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Research
I'm particularly indebted to this fantastic research paper:
The Missing Saxophone: Why the Saxophone Is Not a Permanent Member of the Orchestra
Author Info
Ferraro, Mathew C
etd.ohiolink.edu/acprod/odb_e...
www.latimes.com/entertainment/...
time.com/4101405/adolphe-sax-s...
bandestration.com/2014/12/20/...
www.theguardian.com/music/tom...
Music:
Rachmaninoff's 1941 Symphonic Dances. • Rachmaninoff: Symphoni...
Prokofiev's 1934 suite from "Lieutenant Kije";
• Prokofiev Lieutenant K...
Glass (Violin Concerto arr. for Saxophone)
• Saxophonist Amy Dickso... - Hudba
Because they're saxist.
Thank you, now I think I can end myself
Honestly, the saxophone sounds out of place in the orchestra, even when not played with Jazz technique. The only instrument from the saxophone family that could fit in an orchestra is the soprano, because everything else doesn't blend.
they are saxist... I play bari and alto and they both sound amazing
Wise Guy very true
@@karlpoppins So, let's see - that means that YOU are right, and all those famous composers who wrote music for the saxophone were wrong! How enlightening!
Because some people are saxophobic
lmao I vote this the best comment on this video!
Kenny G is the guilty.
@@millennial8441 why
#saxlivesmatter
I came here expecting to roll my eyes at some saxophone fan boy who didn’t know much about classical music but instead it just turned out that I knew nothing about saxophones.
Me too
Event HoriXZ0n I watched this and still have no idea about saxamaphones
@Jeremy O. Classical music (in the sense of "serious" music, not in contrast to romantic or baroque) is not everyone's cup of tea, but the idea that there's a stigma attached to it sounds absurd. There's a stigma attached to elevator music.
@@alwaysuseless It's definitely there. In fact I am currently unable to think of a style of music without a stigma attached to it from some decently sized group of people. Classical is a bit harder to dislike because people will often fear they may come across as unrefined if they do, but it certainly happens.
Jeremy Oliver never heard the stereotype of classical listeners being ignorant.
As a band person, I always feel that the orchestral repertoire has been missing out by excluding saxophones and euphoniums. Both incredibly beautiful instruments that add so much color to an ensemble, and both work great for solos as well.
Oh my God yes, this is so true. As a band person myself and a classically trained saxophonist, I'd never thought about the lack of the euphonium in symphonic orchestras. It's such an amazing instrument with the smoothest tone of all, that could help bridge the gap between the piston-powered brass instruments and the coulisse ones. Why isn't it in the orchestra as well?!
@@diegorovaglia6945 you see... euphonium playes the same notes as trombone. It’s just more smooth. I prefer the 4 valves euphonium since that’s how I learned. Trombones are pretty common. Tubas are often used but not in a high quantity.
euphonium >> saxophone
@@drewferdgames7 Composers who put euphonium and trombone together don’t understand the nuance in each sound. The composers that pair them usually do it just for the tenor voice, like adding tenor sax to trombone and euphonium.
@@seansleee dang that was a whole 5 months ago. Uhhh yeah it’s been awhile, I started learning tuba and placed 8th in my region as a 7th grader. But yeah cool.
The sax is too sexy. Born out of wedlock from the union of a clarinet and a basson, it had to be sent into exile.
Chris56Y with it's leather jacket and hair spray
WTF!!!!!
*Carless Whisper intensifies*
*Saxile
Saxy? Saxile?
It's a shame. Sax is a beautiful instrument.
Of course, if you include it in a full orchestra, along with string instruments, there will be a lot of people who shun the performance because of the sax and violins.
David Messer underrated comment
,🤣🤣 I literally LOL when I saw this comment!👍
😀🤣🤣👍Joke of the year to all sax fans.😂
(Snare and bass drums are orchestral instruments, right?)
@David Messer : Bravo!
I so appreciate someone who when they hear a lie cannot sit by but must instead clarify and reveal the truth.
Bob Marley I don’t
Bob Marley This is the world of the autistic. It can also get you into trouble.
@That Channel OBEY
I agree. "All it takes for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing." And, "a lie can get halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
People who correct lies, half-truths, misinterpetations, and faulty logic are performing an essential service for humanity.
I've often wondered if it had been named 'German Horn' instead of 'Saxophone' might that have helped? The English and French horns both have places in the orchestra.
Adolphe Sax is a Belgian that sold his instruments in France, what's German about saxophones?
Belgian horn, then?
@@Windfarmer Haha, that sounds legit, I like it
Why a German horn? It has nothing to do with Germany, not that it matters much in naming schemes as the English Horn (Cor Anglais), isn't actually English and was created in Silesia and isn't even a horn, and the French Horn was developed in Germany from an instrument actually called a German horn, so the saxophone can't be called a German horn, nor a Saxhorn as that already is a group of instruments created by Adolphe Sax.
@@DynamixWarePro this post only has 3 replies, yet you didn't read them. That's funny.
“Not blending”? Made me think immediately of that smooth Glenn Miller Orchestra sound. Blending like caramel, cream and a dash of treacle.
According to a movie, didn't the Glenn Miller sound happen by accident when the unavailable lead trumpet player's part was substituted with the clarinet and blended with the saxophones?
I don't like caramel; too sticky. Also never tried treacle. I do like chocolate, whipped cream and ice-cream though, along with milk (iced chocolate).
@Hugh Jones Neither does the banjo or fiddle in bluegrass music. They both stand out like rooster cocks in the hen house. Both no one is banishing them from the orchestra.
@Hugh Jones It can - the problem is that the tone you're used to hearing comes out of jazz groups. Saxophonists are encouraged to have a 'stand out' tone for the sake of soloing. Getting them to blend usually means threatening them with their paycheck. But there is, in fact, a good saxophone classical sound (that isn't just 'pretending to be a french horn') The only problem is that you almost never hear it, because classical saxophone is such a rare thing.
I agree!
As a “classical” saxophonist, this is one of the finest explanations of the instrument’s unfortunate orchestral situation. I also appreciated the exposé of how marketing and word-of-mouth affected and continues to beleaguer the orchestral saxophone. Thankfully, the sax quartet has become quite popular and the instrument has found its voice in chamber music and wind bands. Hopefully orchestras of the future will catch on...
I really appreciate your comment, thank you! Yes I should have talked a bit about the quartet, some great pieces there!
Do you "double" on sax or are you solely a "classical" saxophonist?
loctite222ms I am a “classical” saxophonist primarily.
loctite222ms They're quite normal musicians, really, just like the rest of us (almost). But *so brave* of Joshua to "come out" in front of us all. When I was leaning trombone and wanted to "have a go" on the saxophone, the attitude was: I suppose there's no harm, as long as you're just curious. Down the primrose path...
Another problem is that Sax DID also invent orchestral saxes in F and C that are somewhat softer, but they didn't become popular. Maybe a revival of these instruments would help solve the problem.
Excellent and well-argued. At age 70+ I just wish I'd "found" the sax in my youth. I'm now only just starting to learn to play alto so don't expect to get all that far - but it really is a brilliant instrument.
Good for you Alan. Keep at it.
Guitar better
I've got my audition for university in February hopefully I can get the bachelors of classic saxophone degree I've always wanted but I even feel like I should have started lessons earlier then high school I feel way behind
After 55 years of playing guitar, piano, sax, harmonica, drums, I decided to start pedal steel guitar. I bought a ten string four pedal, five knee pedal, guitar. At 67, I know I am not going to get that far on it but it sure is a lot of fun. Theory really comes in handy on this baby
I love the saxes in Shostakovich's Waltz No. 2. I get this nostalgic feeling from them.
Lance Clark Poirot!
I'm a budding composer as well as a saxophonist, and the utter versatility of the horn is unparalleled. Its uniqueness of timbre per player, blending, section sound, range, ability to play microtones and multiphonics, extreme breadth of extended techniques... It's a magical instrument and I plan on writing SATB saxophones into my orchestral works due to the amazing color that they bring to the table. Great video!
I love your videos!
AnAmericanComposer how do you achieve microtones on the sax? Something to do with the reed / breath?
It's hard NOT to do microtones on the sax. It is a lot of work to play it in tune, the soprano sax being the worst, though they have improved over the years.
Why there isnt much guitar in the orchestra tho?
Guitar IS an orchestra. that being said, there's more than a couple of concerto for guitar an orchestra. John Williams has performed the rodrigo one which you can surely find on youtube
Sir as a Jazz Pianist composer and former alto and bari player I thank you for this very sane level headed and informative survey/assessment. Long needed.
I PLAY BARI SAX TOO! :D
You are exactly who I want to become in my music career. Currently play both Alto and Bari, and am learning the piano. I also like jazz, berry much so, actually.
THANK YOU. Thank you. The use of using saxes as a robust glue and filler in wind/string sections of ever decreasing Broadway musical pit sizes has been an essential tool of the contemporary Broadway orchestrator!! Justice for saxes haha
🎷I can’t even imagine the luscious “Old Castle” solo from “Pictures at an Exhibition” played on anything but an alto saxophone.🎷 I’ve performed it several times…always a thrilling experience!😊
Ummmm...... Bolero. Also: at 8:12 , who and what is she playing? Glass?
Soon, my brothers. We’ve already conquered jazz bands and wind ensembles. Orchestra is next.
Cole H. xD
Fight the good fight - your time will come.
😂
The saxophone revolution is at hand!
Sorry but a professional group of horn players will always beat a group of saxes
_Sax was clearly a brilliant and talented inventor; but he also had a rather brusque, arrogant manner, and he wasn't afraid to push his accomplishments - even if it meant getting on people's nerves._
This is essentially how people who buy into the "they don't blend" myth see the saxophone.
This is just an anecdote that I don't have a source for, but...
He also apparently hated the gramophone. In his opinion, recorded music was musical heresy at worst, and musical piracy at best.
That said though, I doubt a gramophone's sound quality would have done anything to impress him, and I'd easily bet money that he wasn't the only composer at the time to feel that way.
@@reklin Not sure if it's true, but I've heard that grammophones were made relevant not by composers, but by musicians who in order to get paid, were having to get up early, go to some radio station and perform the same damn song every day. With the grammophone, they could sleep in, and still get the royalties.
@@fredrikhelland8194 Probably not true, but also probably not entirely untrue.
Radio didn't become a household thing until after WW1, about 25 years after the invention of the gramophone.
The royalties part is smei-plausible (copyright law being fairly "wild west" at the time), but that's probably more from the broadcaster's side than the musician's or composers. Needing to get multiple people together just to play a single song is a hassle. It's much easier to have it prerecorded. Also probably cheaper.
@@reklin I’m exaggerating (but only a bit). There’s a lot of forces in play for sure.
There were some really prominent artists who pushed recording into the mainstream (personal grammophones were not affordable, and couldn’t sustain a large recording industry). Don’t force me to name names though, because this is all from memory. :P
Another grain from memory: musical recording only really took off in America after the second world war, when German companies were unable to defend their patents. That’s pretty neat, no? :D
I honestly thought that it was not in the orchestra because of the year it was invented
If sax had been allowed into orchestra, just maybe orchestral lineup wouldnt have stagnated.
Orchestras wouldnt be playing pop music to suck in the normies. Sax was the first instrument to get the cold shoulder but became the heart of pop culture in the early 20th century. The electric guitar, bass guitar, synths have all been developed since then and are only ever included in orchestras as soloists and curiosities.
People hated the inventor and shunned him because they were jealous essentially. Players of the time all agreed Adolph sax’s instruments were way superior
@@croweater6814 guitar is versatile but it's sooo Overhyped 😑
@@christianhenry4173 the electric guitar has defined pop culture for the last 70years. It doesn't matter how _overhyped_ it is. Innovate, evolve or die, orchestras failed to innovate and evolve. Don't fret the electric guitar is just about done innovating it will soon have to evolve or die.
@@croweater6814 it's not the electric guitar it's the hype guitar receives. I'm a bass guitarists and partially guitar player however a Piccolo bass has a similar tone to a standard and it's different. Baritone guitar has more richness than an 8 string electric. Guitar has been a pioneer for modern music but it surely isnt as impressive for those of us who play multiple instruments but I highly recommend it for learning chord voicing because piano takes time to learn.
We had saxes in my high school orchestra and later in my college orchestra, I played tenor sax which used clarinet music when the piece didn’t call for sax. Later in life I acquired a “c” melody sax which could play along with a piano without transposing. Ah, those were the days!
The other reason I've heard from classical snobs, second only to 'it just doesn't blend,' is that 'people find the saxophone unpleasant to listen to.' This is usually delivered in a tone of voice that does not welcome an answer back.
Another fun factlet about saxophones that probably did nothing to help the instrument's acceptance by classical orchestras was their enthusiastic adoption by movie studio orchestras. It seems that early recording technology did not reproduce the sound of certain woodwinds terribly well so guys like Max Steiner and other composers, some of whom came from dance band backgrounds as often as not, routinely swapped in a saxophone or three and carried on. Apparently when Erich Wolfgang Korngold came to Hollywood and was first learning about movie scoring nobody dared to broach the subject and suggest the great composer alter his music to include the sax but once he was told why he was fine with it and embraced the instrument with every bit of gusto one might expect. But the fact that motion pictures used saxophones would certainly not have endeared the instrument to the classical world.
(By the way, I'm new to this extraordinarily interesting channel - does anyone know if David is the same Bruce who wrote "Gumboots"?)
As for your last question: If you haven't already seen it yourself, he even made a video about Gumboots. ;-) czcams.com/video/FZxtedwwr5A/video.html
Eye roll. How much progress has been held back, in all fields, by pettiness?
When you realize this isn't limited to music...……………..
@@Ensource damn...
Bruh ur name sounds like pasta sauce lol
not by pettiness friend, by greed.
A lot, but how much progress has been *made* by pettiness is also something to wonder about. Maybe not as much, I don't know... I wrote a damn good poem out of pettiness when a girl I fancied expressed praise for another man's poems. And yes, I am blowing my own trumpet, it was a good poem. Unfortunately I was self-obsessed prick so she, rightfully, didn't fall in love with me. But she enjoyed the poem. I feel I've gone on too long talking about the poem now. It's only a poem. I wish I played the sax...
The Sax really took a long time to win acceptance, even in the early stages of jazz in the 1920's it was not a frontline soloist instrument. Trumpet, Trombone and clarinet were most popular. It was Tenor Saxophone star Coleman Hawkins who showed the world how wonderful the sax could be in the early 1930s which led to Lester Young, Johnny Hodges, Charlie Parker and thus the sax finally found true acceptance
I remember when I played sax in High School, when we did orchestra pieces, the pieces used saxes to replace stringed instruments.
What orchestra pieces did you do, by example?
@@ulisesdemostenes7074, it has been close to 30 years and I only did Concert Band in Middle School and my Freshman and Sophomore years of High School, but I think I played a Fugue in a competition. I remember listening to the original score before I started to practice it. I would often look for the original music to listen to in order to listen while reading through the music. It usually took a lot more practice for me to learn a piece than my fellow class mates, but listening to the original helped me learn a little faster. If I remember right several of the sheet music that I used said that it was transposed from violin, like the Nutcracker theme. We played mostly classical music when we were preparing for the Winter Concert and modern music when we were preparing for Spring Concert.
I find it very classy that you didn't named the "nameless CZcamsr". Thank you.
Mmmmm, yes. I kinda wanna troll the guy, though.
I love Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet...in Dance of the Knights when the lone sax comes in on the melody...one of my favorite parts of the whole ballet!
Also used it in his "Lt. Kije Suite"
And how about the sax entrance in his "Battle on Ice" in Alexander Nevsky? It gives me chills.
@@steveeliscu1254 Now I've been listening to this one for a couple of hours...
Short answer : they're scared of Kenny G stealing everyone's soul for his dark experiments
you misspelled "dork"
Is it just me or Adolphe Sax is the coolest name ever ?
And Adolphe is not the best name to have in Germany...
It looks cooler than it sounds
@@daimhaus Sax lived before the famous Adolf.
It was before 1944...
@@SKM_KB Moreover, he never even visited, let alone lived in Germany. Later, saxophones were banned in both Nazi Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union. (Mussolini liked them, though.)
Ravel's use of saxophone is, of course, as great as Ravel's orchestration in general.
Well now though, because of it, if a saxophone is in the orchestra, it is just the one-off soloist. So yeah, but eh. I do agree that Ravel’s orchestration was truly amazing.
"Comical aspects?" What about the silly trombone?
Trombone already had centuries of use in concert and sacred music by the time Jazz rolled around, so it didn't have the same sort of pop-music connotation despite being used in a lot of ragtime/swing/etc. It's somewhat similar to how very few classical pieces use the electric guitar. We simply associate electric guitar with more "brash" types of music (rock, funk, metal, etc.) so it seems culturally out-of-place in an orchestra.
Of course, it's been done. Stockhausen's Gruppen includes a saxophone and an electric guitar in its orchestra, and they don't sound out-of-place at all.
@@mikesimpson3207 I guess there are a lot of instruments that didn't make the classical cut. But I still find the trombone more comical that the sax.
Trombone is one of the most powerful sounds in any composition. I love sax and wish they were more prevalent, but there’s a reason trombone (despite it’s goofiness) is widely used, even in pop and rock. Also Star Wars or Lord of the Rings without trombone is unthinkable. Sax can do some things that other instruments can, but it can’t do them all, a great soloist instrument but it’s other jobs are kind of already filled in the orchestra.
Any instrument I attempt to play sounds comical
@@sealand000 Same here. I've tried half a dozen instruments - I suck at all of them. A couple of them were wind instruments. Maybe instead of sucking I should have tried blowing? :D
In my country, the Dominican Republic, the sax is a very popular instrument and part of the traditional merengue ensemble. During the last half of the XX century several composers wrote sonatas, nocturnes and other type of pieces. The one I like the most is the concert for alto sax and orchestra by maestro Bienvenido Bustamante. It was recorded by the the London Philharmonic, in 1993, under Dominican-born conductor Jose Antonio Molina.
I’d be interested in knowing why the Baritone/Euphonium was relegated to just a band instrument.
Easy. The euphonium is an inferior instrument same as the saxophone
Being a baritone player, myself, I think it's just because trombones are "good enough" and have the uniqueness of the slide which can't be done with the baritone. Most of the stuff I played in school was just trombone parts slightly altered to fit the baritone.
I'm no expert of course, just going off what I saw in school.
@@tspawn35 this is true with the exception of the... I guess "Marching baritone", which I had to Google real quick because I thought it had a more official name. However, in doing that, I learned that the baritone is part of the saxhorn family of instruments, which were all made by Adolphe Sax, and now we're back to the saxophone haha
Brandon W.
The Baritone/Euphonium has it's own capabilities that set them apart from trombones. They do make interesting solo instruments because they are essentially tenor flugelhorns held upright. The "American Baritone-Euphonium" is (or was) an attempt to build one instrument that embodied the more penetrating tone of the narrower bored European baritone and more ethereal sound of the broad bore Euphonium. They have a great sound and I think the main reason they have not been utilized more as horn section instruments is simply due to their odd appearance by contrast with trumpets, trombones and saxes.
Trombones with a valve set instead of a slide have been available since the invention of valved brass instruments. They were quite popular in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, but the main reason valves have not been able to supplant slides on trombones in general use is because the long narrow bore of alto, tenor, and bass trombones can make playing in tune difficult. The slide allows the player to adjust for tuning disparities that are much harder to contend with in a valved instrument. One of my old band directors referred to valve trombones as "out of tune nuisances".
I always thought it was because there are two completely different ways of notating parts for them, and there seems to be a 50/50 split in players for which one they prefer.
The Old Castle from Pictures At An Exhibition is beautiful.
Ditto on this. This is from Ravel's orchestration (of Moussorgsky's original piano piece) and the sax solo has a plaintive quality that no other instrument could match,
It has all the brazen attitude and colorful depth of the brass and all the subtlety, dexterity and emotion of the winds and can play with or over anything else.
Why on Earth wouldn't you want that in your orchestra?...
Oh, right. Politics.
Because it'll make everyone else look bad! :P
Because it's a new instrument , most classical music was composed without it.
Many established conductors didn't want to go through the trouble or the expense of incorporating it into their orchestra.
-First you have to convince people to pick up the instrument
-Then it takes 10 years to master the instrument
-Then you once you have your musicians , the conductor has to figure out how to incorporate the instrument into the orchestra
-Simultaneously composers have to learn the instruments capabilities and create music for it.
So the Sax wound up regulated to marching bands and later Jazz bands.
By the time you had composers and performers ready to make orchestral music with the sax , the shape of the modern orchestra had basically been set in stone.
@@glennchartrand5411 Did you watch the video tho? People actually wanted to use the sax, just were coerced not to.
Wourghk, It doesnt! The Horns have already that, no Need for another instrument Like "Sax"
Roberto Palego Horns have no where near the technical ability that the saxophone does.
The world of classical missed out, but jazz produced John Coltrane and genus proved the worth of the sax.
Well, because of it though, it’s now shunned even harder. Quite unfortunate.
Not to mention Charlie Parker!
Ralph Vaughan Williams ninth symphony has three saxophones. A gorgeous sound.
Now the Scottish bagpipe,... it truly doesn't blend,... with anything!
It has its own background sound
It blends perfectly with folk metal bands!
And what's more... it doesn't WANT to!
It doesn’t even blend with itself
It's literally tuned to not blend.
Will it blend!?
Also, amazingly thought out video
that is the question
Saxophone dust, don't breathe this.
Great insights! I hope and pray that the modern orchestra will continue to evolve and have the saxophones permanent members of the the classical orchestra.
Thank you! It is honestly eerie how similar the sax can sound to so many instruments...
I'm a composer and my favorite brass instruments are the Wagner tuba and the euphonium.
They have such a clear sound. Pure bliss.
You love them for having a clear sound? Good man, clearly the opposite is true! They have a nice dull dark sound (euphonium covering others more than Wagner Tubas). Have you ever heard them live (esp. a section of Wagner Tubas) ?
I heard a world premiere performance of Péter Eötvös‘s Saxophone concert with the Symphony Orchestra of Basel most recently. It was a stunning performance! And the instrument did match perfectly fine with the rest of the orchestra.
Not orchestra, but when I tried to join my schools jazz band with my Bb clarinet I was given a trumpet part on the first day. The second day they gave me a tenor Sax
Glenn Miller blended saxes and trombones and created his own sound.
bUt ThAtS jAzZ nOt rEaL MuSiC
Only Fletcher Henderson, Duke Ellington, Chick Webb, Jimmy Lunceford and every other big band before Glen Miller did it first.
I believe it was his piano player who did the arrangements Miller was just a good administrator.
What's the difference between a moose and the Lawrence Welk band?
The moose has the horns in front and the asshole in back.
@@freddieh5539 I remember my grandmother watching Welk's show - did he have a bad reputation?
Ralph Vaughan Williams, Symphony No. 6 in E Minor, Third Movement Scherzo, Trio Section = Tenor Saxophone solo.
My favorite sax solo in classical music: Waltz no. 2 by Shostakovich.
Yes, I play it in my concert band and it’s beautiful.
I agree
Shostakovich composed the solo for a trombone
Alto Sax + Cello in Khachaturian's Sabre Dance from Gayenne Suite.
Aw, yes. It is beautiful. Love it!
David, Thank you for your brilliant presentation of a subject which has interested me for quite some time.
I have been researching the use of the saxophone in the orchestra and can affirm that well over 2500 pieces exist where the saxophone is integrated in the orchestra. This number excludes its use as a solo instrument in concerto's (you can add a several hundred of those).
I believe that, with so many pieces existing out there, an important factor for the lack of use in the orchestral realm is the same reason many modern composers don't get performed: music directors who program their concerts have a limited amount of space to introduce as many modern pieces as they would like.
Once orchestras choose to perform more living composers during their programs, the opportunity of hearing saxophone in an orchestral context will also increase.
As for my personal favourite pieces, I have always enjoyed listening to Louis Andriessen’s works of which he has chosen to use the saxophone family on multiple occasions. ‘De Materie,’ ‘Reconstructie’, and ‘Spektakel’ come to mind.
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO! I am a long-time Saxophone player. I play in Orchestra and Symphony with it. It can do all sorts of sounds and can Blend with so many things. I do Trumpets, Clarinets, French horn parts, and others. I have spent years making my alto sound like a French Horn timbre! I even got some other Professionals French Horn players giving it complements (that was a great day). But again thank you so much for making this video! It meant so much to me that it was the first one that popped up in search!
Just found your videos and can't stop watching them! Really great delivery and research. Straight up subscribed. It so good to see people with real expertise joining youtube and sharing their knowledge. Keep up the great work.
thanks so much for this video! Even with smaller ensembles, it bums me out that you can have a sax quartet and...that's basically it. Wind quintets even include french horn over sax. This did not stop my band director in junior high from rewriting other parts (like horn parts) for sax to play lol.
subversiveasset sounds like I wouldn’t like your band director
haha, we got very good practice at trying to sound like other instruments, at least XD
Why there isnt much guitar in the orchestra tho?
Matija Susic - Probably because of the lack of volume compared to other instruments. That said, baroque orchestras often has a lute and harpsichord as part of the continuo.
Check out the Calefax Reed Quintet! The reed quintet is a relatively knew chamber ensemble but it’s getting much more popular. In fact a reed quintet just won silver at the Fischoff chamber music competition.
4:09 I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THAT BASS REED SOUND! Love the Barry sax too. The Saxophone section is always my favorite section in 'the band.' A harmony and blending that gives me goose bumps... just as well as violins.
When I was in High School we had different levels of band (wind instruments) and an orchestra (strings). The orchestra teacher took members of our top band to fill out the winds in the orchestra. She had me transposing French horn parts when a sax part wasn’t available. I ended up doubling on oboe due to a lack of oboe players.
Folks, may I suggest for your listening pleasure Ralph Vaughan Williams' Symphony No. 9, his last. Not one, not two, not four, but no less than _three_ saxophones from one end to the other, brother! Oh, a a flugelhorn is tossed in for good measure.
In 1976 my high school band teacher had personally recommended me to University of Oregon school of music for the education department. But because the person in charge of deciding who can attend was a clarinet player who I found out later hated sax and any non-classical style of music. My teacher had to intervene with him for me to get accepted and told me sax is not liked by that guy. At the time I didn't understand the controversy. I got in and found myself at a disadvantage in a music school oriented purely to classical music. As a sax player fresh from high school, I had no experience playing classical music except for a couple solo ensemble competition pieces and a couple things our concert band played. No rich history of classical music like the other students, especially the string players.
Only classical lessons were taught, where you were required to excel. There was a jazz band 1 and 2 as an elective. The main jazz band had fought its way into existence, but the second jazz band they just kept failing to schedule (even though it was planned for) so we got no credit for it. We had to go early in the morning before all other classes if we wanted to practice, because they didn't want to encourage yet a second jazz band elective. So we practiced at 7am or so.
If you were going for an education degree, you were required to do two seasons of marching band (football season), which took about 20 hours a week for only 2 credits. Financially, the whole music department seemed to exist only to support the football team. The music school was practically an old barn and temp trailers, while the sports buildings were modern, always updated, and worth millions. BTW, that marching band class didn't teach marching band... that was another class.
The experience was good for me overall but I came away with a jaded attitude toward those anti-everythingbutclassical snobs who dismissed or oppressed sax out of hand, and college/sports priorities in general.
A well played tenor sax in the classical style sounds very close to a cello. There is no good reason to keep classical sax players out of orchestras. I feel sorry for any classical saxophonist trying to make a living with it.
Usually instruments become popular because their players write for them. That's why there's so much piano and violin music. If you want more saxophone music don't complain about other people, write it!
For me the big question is - why in hell did you get sent to that University?? I primarily love "classical" music, but a broad education is essential. The focus of a music school cannot afford to be exclusive even though it may have a principal area of study, such as "classical" music. I don't understand why you remained with a Uni so focused on the football team to the detriment of students like you (even though you believe the experience was good for you in total)! A slightly muddled reply, but your intelligent post nonetheless leaves me confused.
SlabHardcheese Hey bud, no offense but, no one asked for your life story.
This is a possible movie
@@obeyme1329 - then again, no--one held a gun at your head forcing you to read it!
This was really, really fun (and slightly infuriating) to watch as someone who played alto sax all through middle and high school!! I should see if I can find some classical pieces to play sometime soon… It really is a shame saxophones didn’t make it into the orchestra; I would’ve loved to play in something other than band!
Boy, did I get a chuckle when I saw this wonderful vid. I am a composer, I use Beethoven's orchestra, and added saxes and a drum kit. You'd be surprised if you heard how I got to use them.
itsatz please share recordings
Would love to hear that
@@derpysheep5872 How? I have MP3s.
@@NicleT How? I have MP3s.
By sharing some excerpts on YT, BandCamp or others... But this said, as a composer myself I don’t want to brusque you. I’m just glad you have such a great project. This is why we’re alive!
I normally play Alto but today my band director was standing next to a bari and told me to play it the fealing was both amazing and humbling
My favorite is the tenor saxophone’s solo in ‘Dance of The Knights’
Your channel is full of wondrous stories! Thanks for making videos - from Korea
I can appreciate this explanation. I was a French Horn player who dared to also play the Alto Horn, or what the British call the Tenor Horn. I was criticised and warned away from the Alto by my university music faculty. They didn't want to see the instrument on campus. Oddly, the most fun had with it was playing saxophone duets where I'd play the Eb part, and my friend would play his Soprano Sax. The two instruments complimented each other beautifully.
What about the Kazoo?
Doesn’t blend well. That’s all.
Because kazoo is not a real instrument it is basically just a mouthpiece of a clarinet or sax with a reed
Also how old are you like 5
@@DonutKingFilms your sense humor make me think YOU are 5
Awesome Alex I believe you are narrow minded. Anything can be an instrument, even tapping on a desk. There is so much you can do with sound. You don’t have to have a $10000 violin or a $200 VST program to make good music.
Wow, this channel really is consistently fantastic! Thanks so much for the videos, and for making all the material you cover so accessible. I think there's a perception that you need a bucketload of technical knowledge to *get* classical music, compared with say literature and visual arts, and you're doing a great job providing bite sized pieces of context to make it all more approachable. Having links to papers below the video is great as well
My favorite orchestral piece with saxophones in it is Overture Rhapsody in Blue and Gershwin Rhapsody in Blue🥰🎷
Very interesting, thank you for your time and work.
The Ravel rendition of Pictures at an Exhibition by Mussorgsky is one of my favorites.
You got my boy Claude Delangle in there playing the Ibert!
Yeah, I love the classical saxophone, and love performing it. This whole situation bums me out.
The Los Angeles Philharmonic has saxophones, soprano, alto, tenor, and baritone.
LOL, that comma there instead of a colon is like saying that "saxophones are 'different' from soprano, alto, tenor, and bari."
@Hello Kitty Not fond of "bari" for baritone, but I'm impressed that you say "different from" rather than the now ubiquitous "different than."
Haha, @@alwaysuseless, "bari" isn't that bad, but it does sound a little like "berry," so I guess it's a tad amusing. :-P
Yeah, "different than...." The explanation of why that should obviously be wrong is on the tip of my keyboard, but I can't quite figure out how to express it properly. Thanks for your compliment.
@Hello Kitty Allow me. It's "bigger than, better than," but "different from." The comparative adjective needs the conjunction "than." The simple adjective "different" needs a preposition, namely "from." Using "than" as a preposition is problematic.
Oh yeah, @@alwaysuseless, that's right, because in order to use "different" with "than" properly, you'd need to add a string of comparative words around it, as in the phrase "item A is more different from B than C is." I knew that was why, but you used the terms "simple adjective" and "comparative adjective," which I couldn't think of. Thanks.
Here in Brazil, when rock music started to become popular in the 60's, some popular musicians started a march against eletric guitar, it was a complete failure, never thought that something similar had reapen with sax.
#endsaxsegregation
It's hard to undo the history of a lack of writing for saxophone in orchestral repertoire. It would be negligent to the original intent of classical composers to throw them in just for the sake of inclusion. That being said, I agree that contemporary pieces should attempt to write them in.
well, not try to change the current orchestra composition for the older tracks that don't have a sax, but don't write it off either for creating new ones
+CDgonePotatoes Meh! Pieces get adapted from instrument to another with no harm done. Bassoon to tuba, for example. Arrangements need not be permanent. Perhaps an advantage for chamber ensembles over full orchestras.
saxgregation #missedopportunity
its saxual harrasment
I guess "Yakkity Sax" isn't a classical work. But Benny Hill wouldn't be the same without it.
Very cool history lesson, David! Excellent work, as always!
John C. Worley was my music appreciation teacher as a high school student at Daycroft School in Greenwich, CT. He was one of the few modern composers who wrote classical music for saxophone.
Thank you for another great vid. One of my favourite examples of the sax at it's mellowest and melancholy is in Ravel's orchestration of Mussorgsky's 'The Old Castle' from Pictures at an Exhibition. Of the relatively new instruments that could blend into the orchestra, consider the hang drum.
"Hey, saxofonists. Wanna play with me?"-Lonely classical guitarist
I am so thrilled I found your channel. Brilliant and fascinating.
I know he’s not a classical composer, but I love the way Danny Elfman used saxophones in his symphonic movie scores (which I just assume was a holdover from writing songs for Oingo Boingo).
you could have just said 'the french', and saved yourself 8 minutes :P
@Tom P It's pretty sad that such a simplistic summary gets 138 thumbs up. If you're not interested in musical history, that's fine, but why are you here? And no, the ":P" at the end doesn't help.
Lol
alwaysuseless username checks out
@zonechaser1 The advantage of having a self-deprecating CZcams handle is I get to see who appreciates the humor and, at the other extreme, who will stoop to the obvious cheap shot.
@@alwaysuseless hi, i am interested in both music and shit talking. thank you for your interest.
glazunov sax concerto is so fantastic
Superbly done. I’ve played the sax for 45 years and didn’t know some of this information about its creator, bravo.
Thank you! I HAD always wondered why it was underrepresented in orchestral works. I love hearing orchestral pieces with it.
Apparently Elgar thought of using a quartet in Caractacus (1897-8) but dropped the idea. There are sketches that suggest this. I suppose the 1898 Leeds Festival wouldn't co-operate.
I think if saxophone had to win one award out of all the instruments it would easily be "most versatile". A good saxophone player can sound like a trumpet, clarinet, oboe, flute, horn, etc all by simply adjusting his embouchure.
Will M In music theory I heard bassoon was the versatile one. Maybe that was for orchestra or something?
L Guy I am not too familiar with bassoon. But saxophone can be found in almost any type of musical ensemble, has a very good dynamic range, and the ability to blend with almost any instrument. That's why I think it's the lost versatile.
Will M Saxophone is more versatile in band/wind ensemble I think, but an orchestra bassoon is the "most versatile one there" since their voice (contrary to this jerk who insulted oboes and bassoons in this video) can play in so many styles and dynamics. Double reeds tend to like orchestra more because they get overpowered by other sections (especially with their low numbers in high school/middle school)
I heard it was the versatile instrument in the Aaron Copland book I read in Music Theory
L Guy Like I said, I am not that familiar with the bassoon since I don't play it (Yet :)). I am a saxophone player. As a saxophone player I can change my embouchure to make myself sound like a clarinet, a trumpet, etc. I am not sure if the same is possible on bassoon since I don't play it. And while bassoon is much more common in orchestra than bassoon, saxophone is easily more common in wind band and jazz ensembles, as well as rock. I might be learning bassoon this summer though since my band director wants me to play it for concert season if we get enough saxophones to cover for me 😀
Will M If you play it I think you'll find it's a lot more different and unique. Trust me it'll be hard to pick up (especially if you have no bass clef experience and then later tenor and treble clef if you want to go the professional route). It takes a LOT of air and knowledge/experience with the instrument/reeds, but once you adapt to that it'll get a lot easier. If you have any questions feel free to ask me.
Thanks for a great lecture. Ravel's Bolero, Mussorgsky's Old Castle (from Pictures at an Exhibition) and Claude T. Smith's Fantasia for Saxophone are my favourite classical works featuring a solo saxophonist.
Nothing feels nicer than being enlightened by surprise. Thanks, David Bruce, for sharing this video.
HALO 3 ODST's soundtrack I believe had saxophones in it.
And it kicks ass. One of the best sound tracks in gaming history.
Rhapsody in Blue (Gershwin) is one of my favorite orchestral pieces with sax
Love your beautiful videos,thanks!
Awesome presentation. Thank you very much!
Hindemith's Opera _Cardillac_ uses a saxophone as a solo instrument.
In a sense the Saxophone does blend, but it does over power easily the other voices of the woodwinds. And as far as the bassoon, yes at the time the Saxophone was being introduced it did lack a big dynamic range, something that latter makers have addressed, especially with the German instrument which can be quite powerful at times.
Which shows the great versatility of saxes. Early recordings of saxophone quartets sound nearly like string quartets of the time contrasted to the bright edgy sound of rock, jazz, and even modern classical music.
Come on, Vincent. Where did you learn to CZcams? The OP puts out a conspiracy theory to explain something and we're all suppose to agree. You're not supposed to come up with a perfectly reasonable explanation that makes the OP look like a moron.
thank you - i played tenor sax in my high school band - i never understood why the saxes hardly appeared in orchestras - except as "guest" performers
Thank you for this great commentary. Started playing sax at 9 and I'm 45 now. Have met some of the aforementioned biased against the instrument.
Bartok- The Wooden Prince and several of Villa Lobos symphonies are my favs that include sax parts
Ahh! The Wooden Prince. One of my favourite collector's items. I first came across the Suite in a recording on the Turnabout label in the late 1960s. It was evident that all the two saxes (alto and tenor) do is to play a chorale tune twice. In the 1980s I saw Simon Rattle conduct the CBSO in a rare concert performance at Birmingham Town Hall and discovered that between the two chorales the tenor player puts down his instrument and picks up a baritone.
I was very tickled to think of Bartok in Budapest in 1916 thinking: "I think I'll get the tenor player to lug his baritone to the gig."
@@terrygrimley9650 I wonder why he didn't write in sax parts for the loud tutti passages and instead had them sit out awkwardly when everyone else was playing
@@slateflash You now make me wonder whether he did indeed do just that, and that I simply never picked the saxes out in the tutti passages. I've never seen a score, and I didn't notice them playing in the one concert performance I've seen.
Given they are basically quite loud instruments saxes do seem to have a knack of vanishing into the crowd, which gives the lie to this odd idea that they don't blend. I remember listening to a recording of a symphony by Magnard which allegedly had saxophones in it: I couldn't hear them at all.
Even with VW's sixth, people naturally focus on the solo in the scherzo, but there is a lot more to the part than that: oddly enough, I seem to hear more of it in Boult's 1950s mono recording than in later ones.
@@terrygrimley9650 He did. I have the score
@@slateflash Sorry, I'm confused now. Do you mean he did write sax parts for the loud tutti passages, or he did have the sax players sitting them out?
I love the Glazunov's sax concerto
Very interesting the whole video, thanks.
This video is fascinating. Thanks for sharing.
Ok. First of all, I have nothing against saxophones generally. And I'm sure they would merge in a symphony orchestra quite well. However, as a horn player, there's one thing I hate about them: A lot of compositions for symphonic wind orchestra just use the alto or tenor sax to double the horns. And this is what I hate. It completely destroys the sound of the horn in my opinion. I'm not saying that the saxophones sound bad or anything, but a beautiful horn passage will get completely busted by the sound of a saxophone doubling the horns. And that's something that a lot of composers don't seem to understand.
Defense99 The thing is that's more of a problem of the composer
As a alto/bari sax player, I agree. Every time I have a doubled horn part I ask the conductor to just let the horns have it where possible.
Maybe it's the sound the composer wants. They don't just randomly double parts, it's a certain timbre that is wanted.
I agree with you. And to be honest, I don’t really believe most of these composers are actually hearing a doubles horn/sax sound. I think they just don’t know what to do with the saxophone so they just have it double things around the band, which is often the horns. Growing up I was constantly told to play softer especially in moments like these with the horns. What I have realized is that I was not only being told to play softer, but to not be heard, as these composers have just thrown extra saxophones around doubling. The conductor of course isn’t going to want to hear ALTO SAAAAXXXX in the big glorious horn parts because those moments should and do belong to the horns. Composers need to re-evaluate whether they actually hear the saxophone when writing, and if not, they need to find a way to hear it before writing for them.
I agree in my band the whole saxophone section drowns out the French horns when they have the same part.
This makes me so sad. I love the saxophone and always will and to think of it as a hated instrument just hurts.
Your channel is awesome! Congratulations, great job!
I don't know how I only just saw this video after years of playing alto sax and being asked 'so are you in orchestra?' (and not having a good answer). This is an amazing video, made me want to pick up my sax and play just for the hell of it which I haven't done since I got to uni. Thanks so much!