Pro Tour Thunder Junction | MTGGoldfish Podcast
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- The crew talks Pro Tour Outlaws of Thunder Junction, Hasbro's Q1 earnings and the future of Magic Arena!
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Intro Music: "8 Bit Adventure" By HeatleyBros
• "8 Bit Adventure!" Que...
Outro Music: "8 Bit Ending" By HeatleyBros
• "8 Bit Ending!" Nostal...
0:00 Intro
2:31 Pro Tour OTJ
34:41 that’s a lot of Stone Rain
39:55 Fallout was a hit
54:52 “refreshing” Arena
1:02:42 outro - Hry
"What do you do with 138,000 Stone Rains?"
"Destroy target land."
Crim with the perfect deadpan 😂
I just feel like if every new standard set shook up the format to the degree you're asking for...after only a week...the format would be a god damn nightmare. Also I remember when Murders came out, you had almost the exact same convo. Like practically WORD for WORD. But now oh look Temur Analyst. Like I get that a team coming up with a format shaking deck is exciting and all, but that's always been the exception not the rule. We remember those moments BECAUSE they're rare.
The correct answer to that problem is not every standard set shaking things up in an already solved format, that requires far too much power creep, but rotation happening often enough that the power level of standard is much lower so shaking it up is much easier. 1,5 years could be a consideration, 2 would likely be better than 3, you might even need to condition it to number of sets released rather than time in case the release schedule speeds up even more.
But then you run into the problem again that thats too little time to play with cards if you have to constantly adjust the deck with expensive cards from every new set every month and really doesn´t incentivise people to get back into standard... Honestly I don´t see a way to continue the current release schedule of sets and NOT have standard seem incredibly solved very quickly, when you have a base of 4 sets a 5th one will shake things up much more likely than when you already have 12 and a 13th one comes along.
@@behemoth9543 Yeah, I think that the three year rotation plays a part in the conversation for sure. If the format is going to change more slowly overall I would hope we'd see more changes from new sets entering the format to hep keep it fresh or else it's going to get stale.
@@MTGGoldfishPodcastthe reason this point is not resonating with me is that most of the people playing standard are loving it. Format is cool and diverse with interesting play patented 😊
@@behemoth9543I don’t think the issue is with the 3 year cycle. It’s because we skipped rotation last year to go up from 2 to 3. Once we’re back to rotation every year I think a 3 year standard is healthier
Honest rutstein is a huge addition to the 4c legends deck
Honestly makes the deck what it is.
Keep in mind that this pro tour was a week after the set released and when there's that little time to really test people don't want to learn a new deck and would rather just see how they can improve already known archetypes.
You saw that all the time with Pokémon that new archetypes tend to bubble to the top in the 2nd or 3rd big tournament of a set but not really the first.
Yeah the field and card pool is too wide for them to break it + get enough reps in the time they had so pros went with what they're most comfortable with. Worked out well for the Japanese team, 3/4 out of the top four each with different decks
Vein ripper saga ruined everyone's expectations
Or everyone just runs whatever Tord played in the first tournament after a new set, lol.
I think we are still too used for the shorter standard rotation, without 3y we would not have SNC and KND, right? That would completely change the tier list
Seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don’t with the timing.
There is a championship Pokemon tournament where the final match has no recording because to avoid opponents sniping their teams everyone played digital cartridges you couldn't stream with. Normally you just transfer your team to another game, but a move that was meta made it impossible so neither finalist could stream. Pokemon now uses open teams.
I love Seth immediately looking around his room after richard mentions using stone rains as wallpaper lol
Thank you Crim for being my representative here.
I would love to see Castlevania cards this fall with the upcoming horror set
Please don’t say that because I thought immediately of Ayami Kojima art on cards and I heard my wallet scream in fear. It’s already dreading the Final Fantasy Realms Beyond if they get some Yoshitaka Amano art on cards.
Just chiming in to bring up there were actually two new deck archetypes: Jund Analyst and Orzhov Bronco, and given the win rate data from Karsten they actually did pretty well during the event! (Bronco was actually mentioned although I'm not sure the deck plan was understood lol)
Isn't temur analysis a MKM deck? Seth talked about playing it 2 months ago.
@@atk9989 Jund, not Temur.
Yeah they talked about the bronco deck
@@Sinistra359 Yeah but it kind of seems like they just think its a meme and not like, a deck with a coherent strategy and a pretty promising win rate.
The Bronco deck looks cool, I hope Seth or Crim tries it out tbh
@lamiaprincess6371 probably too early to tell. Guess we'll find out in the next coming weeks lol
the fact that richard instantly says " there werent very many OTJ cards". you guys ( not including Crim) hate being wrong, you said the same thing about MKM and here we are.... Btw Boros Convoke came to be BECAUSE OF MKM , so dont try to argue these last two sets havent had impactful cards. Like Crim said, Richard is under this mindset where cards in a set have to basically upheaval the meta and that never happens
Nah, Boros convoke was LCI
"...Richard is under this mindset where cards in a set have to basically upheaval the meta and that never happens"
*Me, remembering the like 13 times that's happened*
Dr who set was AMAZING. Maybe didn't talk to people that were new to the franchise, but for people that watched the tv serie, it's insane. The flavour and the amount of references is insane. I really hope it made some people start watching.
Richard, for the purposes of the Fallout TV show's story- play Fallout: New Vegas. It's going to connect with show way more than Fallout 4
44:32 I definitely would also recommend those two. New Vegas for the rpg aspect and 4 for the continuous gameplay.
What's even crazier about Stone Rain Dan is that when he passes, he said he wants his cards to possibly be burned alongside him. Destroyed. His daughter is already aware and understanding of the request.
I wonder if the value of the card will change at all on the day of that news.
36:42 I'm actually working on this right now. I've got a binder for each basic land and also a binder with every single full art land. So I stand behind this idea since I think it's a super cool one.
Back in the original Theros block I made a point of collecting 100 Hundred-Handed One. Still have a folder full of them today 😅
I started watching Dr. Who because of Magic and WOW. I can't believe I never watched the show before. And I will say it has an AMAZING flavor. One of my favorite things is to watch an episode, and then go look at the cards from that episode and see how great the flavor works. The cards are greatly designed in terms of how the cards reflect what the objects, characters, aliens, and events do. Some really great designs, maybe not the most powerful or flashy or easy to get into, but I have a really strong respect for the Doctor Who cards. Watch Season 3 Ep 10 (you can watch it as a stand-alone episode), and then look at the cards "Blink" "Weeping Angel" and "Wibbley-Wobbley, Timey-Wimey" - it's a great design that just takes stuff from the show, and turns it into cards. I think it worked so well! Deserves more appreciation in my opinion!
Better coverage than before for sure!
As a huge doctor who fan we bought a every deck and love it! I think magic and doctor who fans just don’t cross over a lot. Different niches I guess
Fellow Whovian here! I also bought all the decks and it’s been more than 10 years since I played paper Magic. I reckon that perhaps given the long run of the show, non Who MTG players felt intimidated to give it a chance. I would honestly say that it does have a tricky entry point (depending on your personal preference) but once you’re in… it’s the best tv show of all space and time! 🟦🕰️✨
Fallout actually started in 97. They made some isometric RPGs before the popular console series.
Four color legends has an otk; it's for sure a new deck using an old engine.
Crim is right, the beauty is in the game play, not the novelty. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.
Hello there, fellow radiant.
I’m convinced crim is a WotC sleeper agent.
Don't question, just buy products
Agree 100% with Richard and Seth: No open decklists until day of tournament and have the PT a week after the new set drops. Part of the PT is seeing the innovation, not watching pros pilot the same deck you've played against 100 times.
I mean, Honest Rutstein turned 4 color legends from a meme tier deck to tier 1.
There is a reason to have that many Stone Rains...
You throw them wildly, shouting,
"Make it rain!"
Wooo lets go! Full goldfish crew doing the thing
It may just be hard to notice any OTJ cards breaking into standard, because one glance at standard is enough to make one's eyes glaze over.
For the "what card would you collect" section i actualy have had 2 in my time playing magic. The first one was Kiora, the Crashing Wave. Aftef playing casualy with my friends cards for a while i opened my first pack and got a foiled kiora. It was the first mythic, first foiled, and the first planeswalker i ever owned and tried to force it to work in standard. I only ended up collecting around 9 of them but its still my favorite character. The second collection was ornithopter. When they became standard in m15 i loved the simplicity of them and started collecting those as well. I have around 50 i think around somewhere. So if i would collect a large number of cards it would probably be ornithopter.
On the topic of new decks in the Standard meta, alongside Orzhov Bronco as Seth mentioned, two notable contenders are Boros Heroic and Riveteers Analyst.
"turns out he is pretty good at magic if he has his own card"... Yeah that checks out, considering how you get said card xD Love you guys!
I don't think it's a lack of combat for Dr Who. The show has the odd bit of fighting or violence - certainly the threat thereof, with the Daleks and all.
It's the scale. For the most part it's a very intimate show, focused very intently on a singular character, a companion or two, and a particular adventure or mystery or problem in each episode. Yes, there's a universe with a bunch of stuff going on, a big ol' war happened in the past, but it's not the day to day (or ep to ep) focus of the show.
What that means is, it doesn't jive with the feel of Magic; developing your board, squaring off with opponents, eventually having big scary creatures or powerful characters or casting huge game-changing spells. From all I've seen of it, the cards and decks were very well executed and are interesting to play with (and mostly against, certain outliers like the War Doctor notwithstanding), but it just doesn't feel like that compelling a theme to center entire decks around.
Fallout, Warhammer, and of course Lord of the Rings all have a much bigger scale in how they are portrayed. Singular characters get some focus, but there's always lots of other characters and beasts and events going on around them. There's big stuff happening all the time in each IP that matters in the moment, not just in the past or future.
It's notable that one Fallout deck is voltron-ish (whether it's on Dogmeat or not, but it emulates equipping and buffing yourself like in the games), another revolves very much around it's Commander (Mothman), and the other two are built around factions from the lore. I don't know how much more space there is to work with it - but there's always Elder Scrolls, now that the connection is made.
Final Fantasy has scale and will work. Marvel will too; I'm hoping theres plenty of throwbacks to pre MCU feel, but I'm not holding my breath for that - and it doesn't really even matter what they do for it, it'll probably succeed.
Assassins Creed I think is too small, like Dr Who - I think they realised that, which is why it's not getting precons. It'll probably do alright, the series must have plenty of fans.
That said - must it be four precons, or none? Some properties would suit a cool theme deck or two, but don't have the scale or breadth of characters, places, or effects to make multiple distinct decks. You could probably sell a single 'Assassin' deck, along with a few extra secret lairs or themed packs so players can tweak while staying strictly on the theme. I feel like there are many properties that wouldn't suit 4 decks but you could make 1 or 2 really interesting ones.
22:40 That game Crim is talking about was crazy because Ikawa had stabilized and Sean was out of cards and nothing on board and he top decked the 2 best possible cards in a row in that situation which were Dopplegang (was the only copy in the deck so extremely lucky) into the green Virtue which let him make massive Incubate tokens with the copied Chrome Sharks so I actually agree with Seth that the deck is pretty bad after sideboards.
I personally havent had much trouble beating them with my Golgari Midrange deck this season.
The fun of the pro tour is trying to find the underdog that's going to break the mould and root for them. The golgari and 5/4c legends did very well overall
I agree with Crim. Dr Who fans seemed to like the set.
Not to say I'd collect that many but...Immortal Obligation [Murders at Karlov Manor Commander] is a card that I believe could be a commander staple. It is the perfect politic card! I feel like the world is sleeping on this card...maybe toss in a I.Scepter for fun too???
If you want new decks in the meta you can reintroduce the rule that each deck needs a certain amount of cards from every standard-legal set.
That sounds absolutely terrible. Reminds me of the absolute boredom of Block Constructed.
I collect the LOTR Bill the Pony and Shadowfax cards. Some of my favorite artwork in the set
I collect Catacomb Slugs probs got like a few hundred at this point. Trying to start Mantis Riders but only have like 15 at the moment
Magic needs to stream on you tube, there are loads of popular channels here, its way more popular on you tube than on twitch
1:37 Is it just me or did they forget to talk about the Arena Economy and the Big Score cards?
I'm not a fallout fan but I enjoyed the concepts of the decks so unique and fun, that I bought them anyway. That's the difference imo
Totally agree with crim, I don't play any 1st tier deck, (currently playing tai wakeem boros from lvd) but I can say a lot of the games are very entertaining. 5 archetype in top 8 with crazy matches and still not satisfied?? Wth
Doctor Who is less well known and more niche than Fallout is definitely one of the takes of all time.
So you guys are the goldfish crew... How come you all haven't gone into a gp or pro tour event? I mean there is cfb and various other teams. Imo I would be stoked to see you guys in the running.
I don't agree with the strong desire for a breakout deck, but I think the real problem here that stopped that was the limited time between set release and the pro tour. It was like an entire week less than usual.
There's an artifact deck somewhere in this standard, I know it. People are just afraid to try and find it because artifacts are always so clunky and janky. There's a lot of power in the archetype now, though, people just need to figure out how the pieces fit together.
new vegas is about skyrim oldness vibes. 4 is very modern but doesnt have as good of an rpg choices to affect the story
Richard you should play fallout games. Ill say if they ever make an Elder Scrolls show or Elder scrolls decks I would bet they have more potential than fallout. Elderscrollls fits MTG decently well too. I'd recommend checking them out.
Assassin's Creed 1 and the Ezio collection are really good, Black Flag was really fun to play and is probably still the only good pirate simulator (at least in what regards single player games, chasing the legendary pirate ships was so much fun) but the rest of the games are meh or bad tho I havent played any of the new ones so cant speak for its "revival" Seath mentioned.
I'd collect "Colossal Dreadmaw."
Regarding creed: nostalgia and an "outlaws" typal mini set has me keen
I had over 100 copies of Atogatog at one point in time. After i sat on them.forever, i jist started giving them to people i traded with
4c legends has an infinite dmg combo with rutstein and the rakdos legend. The ability to otk out of nothing is kind of huge for the deck.
With so short test time it's crazy how many new cards was played... You can't test full new Decks this short
"When you hear their voice it makes them more human so you're less mean" I see Richard skipped xbox 360 lobbies back in the day. Shit was wild.
Had to rewatch an old podcast for my weekly dose lol. Glad it's finally up
New deck from every new set is basically rotation.
8:00 "Seth go play commander" nah Crim go play chess
My best friend collects ANY AND ALL rat cards. He collects Relentless Rats mainly 🎉
Ikawa started the day off with a 2 hour reverse sweep was the best
Doctor Who made me play commander. I would not play commander otherwise.
This sound like an incredibly healthy meta honestly, im more interested in control because it's so tight to play
Vraska the Unseen is my favorite card but I only have about 30 of them, all traded for or pulled, no where near 138k that's crazy lol
Was fallout the most successful precon to date? The print run must have been tremendous! There’s stacks of them at my local Walmart. MJ holdings is trying to purge their stock.
138,000 Werebears It's all about the right to bear arms.
Crim at the ending can´t agree more some of lobby´s restrictions are absurd
🎉🎉
4 color legends is just Esper mid range with an added color. When 40% of the tournament is one deck I wouldn't call that diverse. How Rafine and Sheoldred has gone on this long with no ban is beyond me.
Does anybody remember when Richard hated the concept behind universes beyond?
I mean, this is the result of having a three year standard rotation. Of course there’s not going to be a lot of movement when there’s so many players established archetypes already. Most of them are just going to be improved upon by the new editions. Also it’s only a week after release. Gotta give the pros more time to cook.
Also, Bronco was played quite a bit and seems like the truth, especially in Golgari midrange.
Richard, I think I can sell you on Doctor Who for commander clash… I’m sending you a deck list 🤙🏻
I collect a bunch of Invisible Stalker. I have, like, 20 of em.
Gonna step in to defend Crim here. Dr. Who fans are wild but it is niche. I thought flavor was great but the pre-cons were a little difficult to use for new players.
Edit: Crim is talking about sonic and it puts me in a difficult position.
Seth Seth Seth, how about your much loved collection of crucibles of the spirit dragon
Do you imagine playing commander on Arena with voice chat? I can't see myself understanding a pod with people with totally different languages than mine..
Wait is there really no commander products for Assassin's Creed but they have commander precons for *Modern* horizons? That is a silly decision
-the pro tour was very high level!
-please no voice chat 🤣
-arena needs an ux designer. i have a small challenge for the comments section: find emotes that express: 'hello', 'well played', 'nice card' and 'good game'. the competitive aspect of arena need to be boosted.
So we're all gonna start sending Seth copies of molten rain now, right
If there were one pet card I would collect it would be Takklemaggot.
Pros were definitely hesitant to try new set at this pro tour. I like having pros play early in new format but this maybe too early
This should be renamed to the “No Fish Mail” podcast. Is that at least 4 weeks in a row?
everyone seems to hate playing against boros convoke, but similar to how seth never loses to the prime time decks in timeless, i never really lose to boros that much, even when i’m playing jankier brews.
So Richard and Seth want powercreep every set?
I'd do doom blade😊
My take on doctor who was that the IP doesn’t fit as well in the magic genre, and the card mechanics were somewhat complex and niche.
I think the Doctor Who cards were a commercial success no? I bought two of the decks.
Did i realy hear this right? They make assassins creed with boosters instead of commander sets and at the same time MODERN horizons gets commander sets? Honestly whatever they are smoking, I might have to try that.
from a sort of normie viewer standpoint it's much more fun and interesting seeing a wide variety of decks.
that being said, magic isn't exactly a fun watch unless you're a really big magic fan lol so idk that a ton of those people care about deck variety quite as much in a tournament format
idk what Crim is on... but i want some XD
Crew completely skipped Fallout 76 in the discussion, nice. Would also love to hear Richard's opinion on FO4 if he gets around to it!
I want a Dune set and have it drop with the movie different houses different color combos. Harkonen black, Freman Green, Atreides white, the emporer and crew multi color
You azorius control just was successful because of yuta? Do you think he singlehandedly raised the win % to 59% (the highest in the tournament)?
He didn't even have the best record in the tournament.
I bought a pair of doctor who decks just for my collection, and they're fine. I think the bigger issue is there wasn't a huge release that coincided with it. If the Fallout tv series sucked (a distinct possibility in video game adaptations), I'm not sure there'd bet the same shift of opinion about the commander decks.
The main problem I see is how much dr who fell off. I somwewhat recently watched a bunch of the classic (black and white) dr who episodes, and even they were miles better than the current ones (post 12/13th doctor).
@@Shimatzu95 I thought Capaldi was good as the 12th (clara being a strong companion helped), but didn't love the Whittaker as the 13th. As far as the set, I think it would have worked better if aligned with the new Doctor. Also, the fact its hard to find/stream in the US makes it much harder for new people to watch.
@@rockandrolljew89 i said after 12th/13th. 12th was good, 13th already felt a bit off, and after that the story was just shiiiit
It’s better to have the pro tour right after release while the hype for the new set is real. Once it dies down interest in the pro tour dies down
I’m kinda shocked by the fallout precons being so successful but I guess despite Bethesda driving the Fallout name into the ground with fallout 4 and 76, the people still want Fallout.
No mention of the MH3 leaks?
I think Goldfish prefers to keep card discussion to when official spoilers release. My main recollection of them talking about leaks has been when the leak itself was newsworthy and/or confirmed in some way, like when the Pinkertons went after the guy with Aftermath cards.
7:37 no thunder junction and then mention like 10ish that were used?
A set being good doesn’t mean it creates a ton of whole new decks. Support vs making a whole new deck is ok
Every set is a commander set now :(
If game of thrones doesn’t get a set I will be amazed.