Is Outlaws a Power Creep Set? MTGGoldfish Podcast
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- The crew discusses the mechanics, cards and power level of Outlaws of Thunder Junction.
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Intro Music: "8 Bit Adventure" By HeatleyBros
• "8 Bit Adventure!" Que...
Outro Music: "8 Bit Ending" By HeatleyBros
• "8 Bit Ending!" Nostal...
0:00 intro
2:14 multiple sets in one
8:16 Plot (Jace Reawakened)
18:47 Saddle (Seraphic Steed)
25:02 The Gitrog, Ravenous Ride
30:46 Spree (Final Showdown)
41:50 Rush of Dread
45:45 Outlaws (Double Down)
54:09 power creep?
56:13 new to Arena
1:02:03 outro - Hry
A 2 mana 2/3 flyer with two upsides is fairly indicative of power creep
Temporary lockdown says hello
@@koolaiddude7685894there being a good answer in standard to a good creature is the very definition of power creep.
@bearsaremonkeys thats not true theres been good answers to creatures for way longer than theres been good creatures
@@joshelderkin9592 yeah, each one being an example of more power creep 😆
Richard "no one goes to 6 lands in modern." Meanwhile, modern uses one rings to grind the game down to a halt.
"I can tell you what's a Viashino."
In a horrible twist of irony, Viashino is getting absorbed into Lizard, as demonstrated by Jasher Flint.
As of 2:39am pst on April 2nd, no Viashino card has had an oracle text change.
Weird thing is, the Viashino of Shiv are descendants of dragons, not lizards....
30:56 I feel like Richard complains about things that are non-issues. 😅 The Final Showdown that is shown on screen has the reminder text. If he's looking at the extended art card, none of them have reminder text. That's a given. And Jace is a mythic. How many mythic planeswalkers show reminder text? That's what commons and uncommons are for. 👀
Yeah I mean literally every Spree card says "Choose one or more additional costs" on it, if one needs to have a long worded explanation of what that means that seems like a them problem.
Rares and mythics commonly don't have reminder text. It's an active decision Wizards has been making for a long time. They've even outlined it in articles - reminder text is for commons and uncommons where they'll get the most visibility.
Seth: This card seems exciting!
Crim: Let's think on competitive situations before we hype it too much
Richard: This is unplayable.
EVERY. FUCKING. SPOILER. SEASON.
word
Que chino quejón
Richard's takes are so out of pocket
Completely agree, the first thing he says is always outrageous
Anything that isn’t jund is unplayable to Richard 😂
14:10 I swear Richard defended Merfolk Looter in Legacy like last cast.
i think last time he was saying he USED TO play it in Legacy, not that he thinks it’s good now
So... where is the hat?!
I’m raging I’m mad I’m angry nothing will make this better I need the hat back
*hats
Yeah…where ARE the hats ?! Promises were made…
I see Final Showdown as a white Cyclonic Rift basically. Instant speed means you can save the wrath until you're actually in danger, the last possible moment, and you can save your commander as well, AND you can remove all of the death triggers. Really good I think.
Only thing is Final Showdown only blows creatures
Agree, it's definitely top tier in commander. Being able to hold a wrath and let someone else wrath (only casting if absolutely necessary) is a huge upside. And 2 mana make something indestructible is an exceptional backup mode.
If I read it right, does it 'counter' an Akromas Will? I can see that being a game changer if it can reverse all the buffs!
@@alwaysplaythegame *in draw go.
any other deck if you pass with 6 mana open and a grip only fools are playing into it. same problem with inkshield.
Minor nitpick but Mana Drain is not restricted in Vintage, you can play 4.. it is just way too slow in a format where the best decks are staxing you out on turn 1.
its crazy to think about a 2 mana counter as too slow.
vintage is wild
Love the slice of life episode where someone is waiting for their online package to arrive or going through their parent’s trunk hidden in an attic.
You aren't alone crim, glad to see Jace be back, honestly thought we weren't going to see him for a couple years till they wanted to bring the phyrexians back.
I thought he was turned into a phyrexian and died with the rest. Anyone know the lore as to why he is back?
@@jamescooley5241pretty much everyone is since apparently meliras cure worked multiverse wide so the only one still dead at this point as far as we know is lukka
@@jamescooley5241 Mental back-up, stabbed with Halo, a will to live and see Vraska again, and managing to planeswalk to his mom, a medic.
@@donb7519 I think Wrenn is permadead because she was killed by something other than being Compleated.
I think Tamiyo is also still dead.
Basically, Planeswalkers I personally liked, permadead.
@@TulipQ wrenn got replanted which is an easy button to bring her back and tamiyo is back as an ai scroll. So even both of them can easily ignore dying
Crim's doggo is very excited for Thunder Junction 🐶
As someone with a background in immunology here's a tip for Richard, Crim and anyone else with seasonal pollen allergies. About two months before allergy season begins eat some locally made honey once a day. The amount will vary by person but about a teaspoon should be enough. As long as the honey is natural and locally raised it will be made with pollen from local plants. Some of this pollen will remain after the honey is made and act to prime your system for the onslaught to come. This won't cure your allergies but it should reduce the symptoms by a noticeable percent.
Yes and I like to stay within a 5-10 mile radius when buying Honey
"There is no evidence honey of any type can help alter your sensitivities to allergens,” says David Tanner, M.D., an allergist at Piedmont
Misinformation
@@crisjiandennington991 apparently he doesn't know what he is talking about because it help tremendously
@@PuggerLedford-oc3yj what about the 20 other medical journals?
Has Richard ever thought a card was good?
dude refuses to accept that swords to plowshares is a strong card
Spirited Companion
@@AdaWongMistress I disagree with almost every one of richard's takes but he actually has a point about swords. One for one removal is just not that good in commander especially if it only hits one card type and mana efficiency doesn't feel as important in commander either I'd much rather pay the extra to get more out of it like generous gift being able to hit more than just creatures. I would play it in 1v1 formats though
and by not that good in commander I mean in multiplayer formats I forget there are poor souls who play 1v1 commander
@@hallowedmist4289 the "i won´t put a card in my deck to answer a threat because there are other 2 people who will answer it" came back to bite his ass in an episode where he got a super fast turn 1 commander and then he got plowshared
I like how Seth and the team are reporting on this set, but are all confused about what’s in the packs, rarity, how much we can expect to see it, lol. They’re a mirror of us players 😂. You guys rock!
Can't wait to saddle the Gitrog with a Yargle & Multani and just deck myself. Love it
12:06 Plotting a Void Rend is the new meta. --Since they see the card you plotted. Who wants to deploy threats into a Void Rend that's already been paid for; it's like holding up counter mana.
Jace "taps" for 3 mana. That's the best way to view him, and that is phenomenal.
That's what I was thinking free 3 drops
Taps for three mana for a single spell you can't play until next turn.
@@mrlescure That's still good. And it's technically "3 mana of any color combination". I don't see a world where that is a not good and worth doing every single turn (unless you're topdecking)
@@mrlescureyeah, each turn. They put that turn 1-3 restriction on him for good reason
@@mrlescure but that is still good.
it'd be banned in modern if It was just 2 mana tap for 3 mana. even if it didn't untap.
Nice! Favorite part of the week!
Ngl, I love the flavor of the new Gitrog. Only a badass like Thalia can actually ride em, everyone else just gets thrown off the ravenous ride 😂
@38:00 it lets you block or attack with the ancient one without 8 permanents in the graveyard.
Seth's got the diamond hands for those Cateran summons.
Final Showdown's ability to screw the attempt to one side board wipe by doing wrath into Heroic Intervention makes me so happy
Okay, hear me out. Have Thalia and The Gitrog Monster saddle The Gitrog, Ravenous Ride. Now, you have Thalia riding the Gitrog who is riding Gitrog. Lol
I'm totally saddling the new unicorn in my unicorn tribal commander deck! Don't gate keep me 😂😂😂
Surprised ya didn’t talk about Aven interrupter. The card seems gas in the right decks and wanted to hear Richardson thoughts on his newest addition to his bird tribal list
That card seems sick in a tempo deck in standard
New gitrog in my Henzie EDH deck?? Hell yeah, dude. So much value and card draw. Blitz him in, find a way to recur, repeat.
Re: final showdown in commander, rather than cut another wrath for it what if you cut a targeted removal like path-to-exile? Or maybe count it as both and save a card slot for your deck's main plan?
I think if plot is good then double down will be great. Copying your plotted spell on the turn your double down is played seems choice.
if you could play jace on turn 2 you would be able to cast 2 3 mana on turn 2, or 1 3 amna and still have a counter, plot may be a very good mechanic for some combos too
John Wick is a video game movie.
The world follows so much video game logic.
"We love 'rounded up' in this house.":D
Final showdown feels like a white cyclonic rift. It should be seen as a combat trick (single removal) or a 7 mana white cyclonic and keep your commander
There's the mana dork that provides 2 mana to cast creatures with mount - means you could cast the Gitrog on t3 - but no saddle unless you had a one-drop
Richard is really become the old man screaming at the clouds and just you wait in a year richard is going too beplaying these cards
Does Leyline of Anticipation work with plot cards? Like, if the Leyline Jace deck is a thing, could you play the plotted card at instant speed (flash)?
if cast plotted cards then I think you're right.
Final Showdown is basically the love child of Dress Down and Rout
In standard, the losing abilities of Final Showdown is bigger than you give credit. It's possible arena is a lot different than paper/mtgo. Raffine gets its attack trigger removed, so no filtering through their deck for a turn, this also causes it to lose flying so it can be blocked if you choose to let the attack trigger happen. Mosswood Dreadknight also loses its death triggered ability, so it can no longer be recurred. You can also just use it to blank the "haste" portion of the mono red creatures. Can also be used to blank Warden of the Inner Sky for a turn. This card can be used during the early game. Sometimes you just cast it for three to block something that would normally get through with your 2/2 indestructible. I don't think it will be useless until t6, but I do think it won't be a 4 of.
FYI Seth, Mana Drain is allowed at 4 copies in Vintage currently
Some of those cards in The Score are just INSANE power creep I think. For the mana value an artifact that literally just says "if you attack then you get to play a card for free that you draw" is just nuts. There's also some Artifact tribal love that I think is pretty insane...duplicating Artifacts at such low mana cost with so many upsides means you could basically just steamroll the table with scary artifacts. Breaking News cards hurt my eyes, I feel like I can't read them properly lol
Rush of dread actually looks kinda cute if you plot it with Jace. 5 generic for all three effects is quite doable. All three modes individually become really efficient too.
Jace turning Lively Durge into "{3} Search your library for a creature of mana value 4 or less and put it onto the battlefield" is equally hilarious.
No serialized but they do have textured foils for the replacement.
Final Showdown is great in commander.
7 mana instant speed board wipe that deals with indestructible creatures.
It's the white Cyclonic Rift.
Only downside is the triple white cost, which probably limits this to one or two color decks.
Literally spit out my cereal w "bulk... but w kicker" so funny
On the discussion with Jace, can't you cast cascade cards with it too?
I'm sure the three gentlemen know, but they did not mention that saddle - unlike crew - is sorcery speed
I love how Crim is so progressive rocking the blue hair and the messy bed in the background. 😅
Im surprised the Trouble in Pairs didnt get a mention
Rush of Dread is going to be crazy in an Astarion deck
THE HATS ARE GIVING THEM POWER!!!- Unknown.
Since you asked, my azorious Control edh deck runs these 8 wipes:
Final Showdown
Supreme Verdict
Sunfall
Time Wipe
Austere Command
Farewell
Hour of Revelation
Vanquish the Horde
I could maybe see a couple copy's of double down in a mono blue pirate or izzet pirate deck maybe
I was too busy loving the flavor text of the newspaper cards that I forgot they'd be legal in timelss, so that's exciting! Also, the criticism of the art direction being off-base is entirely true. It's a feaking COWBOY set! Where are my guns? My grit? It's just sanitary and soulless and depressing
final showdown replaces a protection spell, not a wrath. If you look at it as a protection spell first, a combat trick second and a wrath third its a lot more clear what decks will want it.
Mostly decks that have one or two important creatures that need to be protected.
I agree with the crew that the Outlaw mechanic doesn't have enough payoff. There also not enough identity.
At least in Masques block the mercenaries recruited other mercenaries.
Hey Richard, what does a rebel look like? And it was a tier deck.
Did Richard forget both sunfall and farewell see standard play at 5 and 6? But says gitrog is bad because 5 mana? Card seems like a good response to either board wipe honestly.
Double Down+Plot might be much different from previous iterations
My guess is that when you plot a dual-faced card, you'll have to plot a specific side of the card that could be cast. It would be dumb to undo the cascade rules fix.
They could have made a villains party mechanic with outlaws. sure its a reskin but it would make outlaws more viable. call it Posse or something and give bonuses based on how many of the 5 outlaw types. its better than what we got.
If i read this right, as spree is in addition to mana cost, you can plot a spree card with Jace, and then next turn get all the goodies. Jace +1 into next turn I attack half your hand, kill half your board and have you lose half your life for 5 seems fun. Or for 2 mana force a counterspell out of your hand to prevent the discard and then play my threat.
The spree cards are just charms. They're all slightly over costed for their abilities but you have the option to pay for more modes (unlike the charms).
Just like the majority of the cards in this set, at least 90%-95% is unplayable in competitive formats but will be great in commander (i.e. the current WotC design philosophy).
About how many Commander games do you guys play per year?
Does Richard like anything? Like at all? Lol. He’s super hydrated that’s for sure due to all that Haterade lol 😂.
I feel like saddle is a huge trap in the boardwipe meta, you decide to not attack with your creature so you're giving opponent more hp just to get boardwiped next turn, or you saddle and now single target removal removed your mount and prevented dmg from another creature (since it was tapped to saddle instead of attacking)
I think they want to make the modern electrodominance deck real now with Kellan joins up and jace allowing you to cast restore balance, ancestral visions, rhinos, valki etc.
I feel like saddle is only for aggressive decks. If you aren't tapping a creature with summoning sickness to saddle, or tapping your early threats that can no longer chip in, then you aren't being efficient with your board presence. If saddle gave a power / toughness boost as part of it's ability then tapping your board would make more sense to me, but as is the trade off for the saddle ability doesn't seem like it's powerful enough.
Limited will be a freaking nightmare of MOM bombs, but stuff like standard it doesn't really change the "50 wraths, 100 control cards" sadly.
I wish saddle was just crew for creatures (like maybe using the DND weird funky lore text where its like Saddle - Crew creatures)
The problem with aftermath is they likely had just increased the price per pack when adding it to thunder junction. When they should have just price adjusted aftermath to half the cost of a pack. Would have been the most popular packs ever made.
I'm not big on the set cause flavor but curving sheoldred into gitrog sacking anything like mosswood or any kinda 2-3 power body is literally draw 2/3 gain 4/6 hit for 6. Which seems pretty strong for closing a game
For what it’s worth, Richard, you’re naming creature types that are a race and comparing them to creature types that are a profession. Yes, I can tell if a thing is a human, kor, elf, merfolk, etc. at a glance because that is their physical characteristics. Like Crim was saying, at a glance, I cannot tell someone’s profession at a glance immediately. I think that’s fine. Primary race - profession as a creature type line is fine.
Referring to wizard, rogue, warrior, etc. as "professions" instead of classes, like they are regular jobs, made me genuinely chuckle. Thank you, you made my day :)
I agree. Bit of a weird nitpick. It's always been like that. But we build around soldiers, ninjas, rogues, samurai, warriors, clerics, and wizards all the time.
No one complained when samurai+warrior got together and ninja+rogues in Kamigawa.
@@thesamuraimanThat makes sense for sure, but those examples didn't introduce a new term like 'karate users' or 'defenders of the realm' and then make you have to figure it out. Whenever a ninja or rogue does X is always fine because it is printed on the creatures. Outlaw is not printed on the creatures that are part of the group.
You're missing the inter-set synergies with Double Down. Legend rule away your outlaws to power up your collect evidence cards!
Seth. Reanimate isn’t banned OR restricted in ANY format.
counterpoint: The vampires don't need a sandwich now and then
This is the set of the year
I find that I can’t shut up about Railway Brawler.
It’s not only the greatest board-wide +1/+1 counters generator by a *VERY* wide margin, making it Plot for 1G 3C shoots its utility into the stratosphere.
I also find myself wondering how its counters-equal-to-power is going to interact with cards like Arwen Bringer of Hope.
Stapling Roaring Earth to a 1G 1C, and then tacking on the Green Leyline activated ability to a 2/2 Legend is just gravy.
I’m not nearly as well-informed about the other colors, but Final Showdown and that Black Edict 1/2 your creatures Instant are seriously pushed as well.
Crim is tripping in regards to seraphic steed. "dies to removal" doesn't make a card bad
If the first ability on final showdown hit plainswalkers too then it would be good.
Maybe you could put Jace in Temur Rhinos. Cascade into it and plot a Rhino or whatever. Format warping? Probably not, but I still feel like it's worth testing.
Keep in mind, if you cascade on your turn before turn 4, you still can't cast the Jace
@@KingCosmo7sad deckthinning
@@KingCosmo7That's fair. Forgot that you still cast the cascaded card.
I mean all that valki stuff is perfectly legal in Pioneer too
People complaining that Saddle is just crew for creatures: My siblings in Christ all mechanics are just kicker with extra steps.
You mean people just complain for no reason? Hard to belive 😅
Kicker or horsemanship
I'm fine with them talking down Final Showdown; keep it cheap for commander!
Thunder junction. AKA commander masters 143. yay.
Richard really has to overhaul his coordination system... only one example: Gitrog is great and 5 Mana is NOT a lot in standard (especially with ramp elements), there is something called top of the curve - and it will also see Commander play for sure.
Oh, a 2 Mana looter that has Jace printed on it sounds like nothing horrible is going to happen.
Im surprised seraphic steed isnt a 3/3
Saddle looks nice, but i think the mount creature type is unnecessary
I think instant speed wrath might be a huge deal in standard
Final showdown of most like Feather card in set
It doesn’t target so it doesn’t work with feather 😢
@@brandondrake69 True. I am used to see: "Choose target creature", to automatically there was for me this passing of worlds supplemented ( so typical for abilities that are in benefit of one creature)
I feel like Richard and Crim focus to much on the wrath part and not enough on the modular side of the cards. Two mana protection is pretty good the second mode is also pretty good even if it just stop a bat form screwing with your hand
Don't forget you can do the phyrexian dreadnought thing with showdown
Aftermath was kind of like the pseudo return of 2 set block but in the worst way possible
If you block Gitrog with Sheoldred she'd be dead when the draw trigger goes on the stack
I LOVE this set's cards
Final Showdown, High Noon, and more are just AWESOME.
I love most of the art
I like Kellan Joins up, I like Vraska joins up.
CEDH is feasting this set in colors and for decks that are in the lower tiers.
In constructed, too. Not too many of these are broken two for ones. They're mostly powerful one for ones where you have to work for the 2 for 1 if there is any. I'm a much bigger fan of this design than previous sets.
However, the power toughness of many creatures in this set are slightly too high.
Let me just give deathtouch to all my creatures for two mana, also I draw a card because thats the sole WOTC design philosophy
15:04
PLOT PLOT PLOT GET ULTIMATE GET ULTIMATE
Wait i thought you could only plot at sorcery speed but still cast a plotted instant at instant speed
Unfortunately no, both plot and cast have to be at sorcery speed.
Saddle is closer to Enlist than anything else I think.
And I think outlaw cards miiights work, purely because you don't need a "full party." It's just a creature type check.
No enlist was just bad crew, mount is literally crew creatures.
@@atk9989Crew turns your artifact into an artifact creature. Enlist is literally tap another creature to add an effect to this creature. It's basically exactly Enlist.
The love for ondu inversion baffles me
It's the best utility land in white.
@@imaginarymatter I think white can do better than an 8 mana wrath that is also a bad tapland
Plotted cards can only be cast at sorcery speed, so not great for a lot of control tools
Um Jace +1 plot frantic search to free cast it later, or celestis, or any 3 drop sorcery spells that you normally wouldn't play are playable when you can free cast them on a suspended until needed. Then add in possible get 2 copies for free as top end. A 2 mana Jace giving you a free cast draw 6 plus 6 other spells for free.
Hot take, I would have rather had an aftermath style set for BIG than the current system. Forcing these cards into the list slot means that they will be super rare, in addition to driving the rarity and price of special guests way up. Not a fan of this solution overall.