The brute force approach to the impossible skilift problem: Poma lifts!
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- Building a ski lift that has both left and right turns is quite an engineering challenge. Poma lifts are an excellent example how to address this problem with marvellous minimalism. Nevertheless, they typically operate at higher speeds than traditional ski lifts.
This video fills an important gap from my first Mighty Machines video: • The IMPOSSIBLE skilift...
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Chapters:
00:00 Intro
01:48 Poma lifts
03:19 The engineering of turns
05:07 A rough ride
05:50 The detaching mechanism
08:23 Other kinds of Poma lifts
08:42 Thank you
Skilift Pas de Boeuf: www.skiresort.fr/domaine-skia... - Věda a technologie
as a french guy, Poma ski lifts are my favourites, the dangling sounds at each pole have been engraved in my memories my whole life. It just resounds with ski holidays for me
Love that comment. Same for me!
Right, epic sound I never forget
real
I am from Finland and I have too grown up skiing with Poma lifts. I really like them. They are small, probably relatively inexpensive and fast and you can easily put two lifts next to each other to increase capacity. In my youth they still had a manual operator instead of an automatic gate.
In Slovakia I got used to these and I have stuck them in memory. Now in Czechia, Italy or Austria I never see them but I still think the engineering checked out. Its bruteforce approach that works.
The slippy grip on the Pomas isn’t as unsafe as it may appear. It’s a surface lift, the passenger is already on the ground, so there’s no risk of a high fall from a grip slip like on a chair lift. In addition, the grip forms a full loop around the cable, unlike chairlifts that have a C shaped grip. There’s no way for the Poma grip to come off the cable, all it can do is slip backwards.
But they do wear out though. Over here in Châtel we've got one that's notorious for slipping. And then you have a skier pile-up and the whole bunch has to ski back down and start over again. Certainly not dangerous, but kind of annoying.
Yep, I was thinking that the wear on the grip must be substantial and the springs experience serious shock.
As a Teenager i was already fascinated by those poma Ski Lift "machines" . They work robust and fast, no matter the harsh stormy weather is !!! The long Pole is easy to ride, even with a snowboard 😅
Now as elderly engineer I know this curved Lifts (up to 3 + corners in a row, sensationel !!!) are sensible with nature, 98% pure mechanics, easy to maintain, proofed robust as hell, still a working horse, cheap in operation, so absolute genious, brillant engineering. Bravo Poma !!!
No seat heating, no girl beside you, no white ski-overalls (oil 😮) no failing electronics, so software bugs, no false alarms, no fancy Design, no WLAN, ... pure skiing 🎉
@@bartmulder6995lol, which one is it? I mainly know the „tres dificile“ double-lift up to Chavanette where one side always runs faster than the other😂 but even as a ski beginner I really enjoy the long ride up with it.
Yeah I know right! Always so annoying when you choose the slow one.
The one I mean is in Chalet Neuf, say the back side of the Chalet sector, which would allow you to go to Morgins. It's the long drag lift all the way up, especially the one on the left.@@RandomUser2401
Engineer 1: We could just brute force the inside turn.
Engineer 2: A double rope grip is more elegant for an inside turn.
Engineer 1: Poma Lifts are not elegant in any case...
Seriously. The brute force idea of just rotating the grip out of the way is brilliant, and I bet the Slip-style detachment used in the magazine is also helpful in those turns: the grip wouldn't be trying o twist the rope when against the bullwheels.
"Brute Force" most accurately describe the launch. These are the most violent launches I know and on many occasions my weight was taken off my skis as I was hurled up the mountain. Fun stuff if you like a thrill. Note that these are also quite often the first lifts you'll take as a beginner. And if you can muster this, you can handle any lift. I consider that an advantage.
Brute Force lift teaching !
4 year old me got taken off my feet for a ride in the air the first time I stayed attached to a Poma as I tripped the stick
I've flown a metre or two at 80kgs thanks to the local Poma in Lofoten.
At Riksgränsen in Sweden, they have a sensor that senses when you take the pole out from the magazine, which triggers the mechanism and locks it, instead of the typical start pole trigger.
…beware if you have a dodgy back!
especially in poma it really helps that you pull on the handle at the beginning so you get the nice steady smooth launch and after that you start to release the handle until it reaches your butt. You need to act as another spring and damper in the system and then you can have very smooth ride.
(Tatra)Poma lifts are also common in Czechia and Slovakia as they were manufactured here with the licence of Poma company. They ware always my favourite ones.
As a child with not so much weight, these lifts were like rocket launches:
So you want to go up the mountain? BOOOM, there you have it.
When i was a child i drew many times Pomagalski lifts wondering how this attachment system was working. A few years ago i made some research and found some explicative text about but no pictures.
Thank you for your video, i now have a response to one of the greatest question of my life.
Same thing here :)
Ah, the sweet memories of being 10 years old, catching a pole with a properly clapped-out damper spring and subsequently being launched forward so hard that it almost lifts your skis off the ground.
Here in Slovakia, Czechia and surrounding countries, Tatrapoma lifts are everywhere. I've always wondered how the grip works, and now I finally know. I once saw one of these lifts fail by launching all poles from the magazine. That must've been a fun day for the operators.
Best memory when the damper was frozen completely so it lifted me in the air at some parts of the ride.
Breaking your spine at the same time! Love these memories
I definitely remember being lifted up by these, only for my skies to touch back the ground seconds later at a weird angle and causing me to fall.
Not almost if the spring is old
I worked for Poma in the US for 10 years. We had piles of those old parts and pieces for those rope tow lifts. They were not popular in the US. We made gondolas and high speed quad lifts. We held the record for the steepest climbing lift and the highest speed lift for a long time.
I worked at a small ski resort in the US that had a T-bar and 2 platter lifts, none of which were made by Poma and they were known as the Poma lifts. They then got a conveyor belt lift made by Poma and this was referred to as the Magic Carpet despite Magic Carpet being a company that the resort had never bought anything from.
Poma were absolute madlads designing these lifts. Rocket start, 4 m/s speed, I'd like to ride one, but I'd have to travel for a whole day or more. Also, mad respect to Küpfer, their double-rope approach may be more complicated, but it's just beautiful engineering with a smoother riding experience.
The spring-tensioned telescoping end of the pole makes perfect sense in the context of the friction hold on the cable. It helps ensure relatively consistent pretensioning of the grip against the cable anytime a rider is holding onto it, making the friction hold even more reliable.
Ski lifts have always been a fascination of mine. It’s nice to see a CZcamsr focus on the engineering side of these awesome machines in a Tom Scott-style! Keep up the amazing work!
The elevator you filmed looks exceptionally user-friendly. Usually that brute force attaching is so brute the skier flies in the air a meter or two. 😄
The sounds from a Poma are so distinctive and I'd know exactly what it is from a mile away. I learned to ski on a Dry slope that had a Poma, walking from the carpark to the slop the noises from the lift got louder and excitement grew. Such a nostalgic sound for me.
I also saw a Poma where the rope came off the turnaround at the top. The whole thing was bouncing like a lunatic and nobody at the bottom know it had come off, that was hilarious to watch.
As a german the french engineer things smartly. A simple solution can easily require more thought than a complex one!
"If I Had More Time, I Would Have Written a Shorter Letter"
The French copy no-one and no-one copies the French..
I always loved the jankiness of these Poma lifts. Here in Australia, in addition to (in the past) having a Poma with 2 bends, we also had The Fastest Monocable Skilift in the world; the double-ended Summit Access/Howqua Poma at Mt Buller, which ran at 6.5m/s (~1300fpm) during its first few seasons, but had to be slowed down to a normal 4m/s for the public, although staff could still get a full speed ride until it was removed in the mid 80’s.
Oh, I remember that one. On slow days mid week early in the morning they would have it cranked to the max, you could get serious air if you jumped at the right time as it went round the corner
Huh! I didn’t know Howqua used to be a surface lift. It’s pretty steep!
Buller also has the longest surface lift in the country, the agonisingly long Tirol T-bar at 1610m. Literally goes all the way from the car park to the top the main slopes. When the Northside mid load station is closed, it’s your only way out… my left leg aches just thinking about that bastard.
I've always loved Citroens, and this is the slope version of that. Absolutely genius.
I would be a bad German mechanic, but a great french one. You solve a problem by an overtly complicated and kind if elegant solution, but make it with a sledgehammer and go for a glass of wine.
cool. The Poma 'no clamp´. You uncovered one of the last secrets I haven't understood while looking at ski lift mechanics along my ski life.
I am french, I have been skiing for 23 years now and I just discovered that there were other ways than rhe brute force method 😮
The only ski lift in the resort around my house are Poma. I never realised that orther compagnies could do it differently 😅
Awesome video! I didn't know Poma skilifts (téléskis) weren't that common outside of france / french-speaking switzerland, because I've exclusively seen them in my life skying in the french alps (other than the rare "pickaxe" style sometimes).
I've already seen the clamping mechanism "fail" (fail to make enough friction) because of a jam at the end station, and that ended pretty catastrophically - the jammed pole got unjammed by the next one, and both were together till the bottom station, where it completely locked up in the beginning of the storage drum, causing a very loud sound. The operators had to stop the lift for the entire afternoon to unjam it and check for damage. That was in 2018 at Risoul, on the Homme de Pierre lift.
Cheers from Grenoble!!!
The UK seems to have been a good market for Poma over the years. Although we have one or two local chairlift manufacturers in the UK (Their lifts tend to be identifiable by the small and worryingly economical design of the open « chairs » used - Look-up the _Great Orme cable car_ for an example) Poma solutions seem to be much more popular here. 👍
There's a classic Téléski at Alum Bay (Used to carry people between the park and the base of the cliffs) on the Isle of Wight, and Poma cabin lifts exist at both Alton Towers (1980s) and East London (ca. 2012). 🚠🇬🇧😇
...And as a man who is *seriously passionate* about the French approach to engineering, I can only say that - For me - This is the most *« Alsthom »* (Pardon... _Awesome_ 😉) thing imaginable! 🚄🇫🇷🛠❤🔥💨
Chile has a lot of Poma lifts at their resorts too. I recall hearing that the French helped them build and develop some of those resorts, so I bet the Poma lifts there were a consequence of the French influence.
@ro Quite possibly. The Santiago Métro uses very similar trains to the MP-89-CCs on the Paris Métro 4 & 5...And if you thought French _chairlifts_ were awesome, check out their *Métro* trains! 🚈💨💨💨🤘
@@dieseldragon6756 MP-89's run or ran on M1, 4, 14.
The MP-89-CC is (or should be) now only on M6, they've moved them from M4 since the line was converted to full driverless automation, gradually replacing the good old MP-73's.
Now is the time to catch a last ride on the MP-73, as they'll soon be gone, only leaving 90's and younger trains on rubber lines.
Line M14 now runs MP-14 trains mostly. A few MP-89-CA's still run if I recall correctly, but the major extension opens in June and I'm not sure if the remaining MP-89-CA's will continue for long.
M5 never had MP-89's as it's not a rubber tyre line but a "steel" one. It runs MF-01's, just like on M2 & M9.
If you haven't already, you should come try the new MP-14's, they are absolutely fantastic! And their sound... 🤩
The new MP-14's now run on line M14 as 8-car CA versions (driverless), as 6-car CA versions on M1 & M4 as support fleet to complement the MP-05's and MP-89-CA ; and as 5-car CC versions equipped with a removable driver cab on line M11, replacing the venerable MP-59's in preparation for the Eastern extension of the line opening this spring.
There are still at least a pair of MP-59's still running as of last week apparently, but they'll soon be gone for ever.
I nearly dropped a tear last time, seeing the trains of my childhood being retired after 60 years of service.
These swaying, punchy and funky trains were great, their replacements are fantastic but the nostalgia can't be avoided... I'll remember their popcorn smell forever!
The new MP-14 also accelerate like mad rockets and brake super strongly, tumbling first time passengers like bowling pins.
But that's more rubber tyred metro specific than model specific, though the new ones are kicking even more at take-off.
Soon (coming years), the MF-19 will start to be deployed, replacing all other older MF-67, MF-77 and MF-88 trains from steel lines, only leaving the historical metro with 2 steel wheel train types : MF-01 & MF-19 (3 "subtypes" for the MF-19).
With 3 other types for the Grand Paris Express :
The wider loading gauge MR3V & MR6V, same type but in 3-car (lines M16 & M17) and 6-car (M15) versions ; and the MRV (a temporary name?) for line M18 with a narrower loading gauge closer to the historical metro and 3 cars.
Line M14 is getting a new and improved signaling and autopilot system to enter service in a couple months, not sure if the MP-89's are compatible with it or not, so they may definitely be gone from line M14 soon, fully replaced by MP-14's.
Anyway, I can't wait to ride the new GPE trains in 2025 and all the new extensions opening this spring (34 kilometers of new line extensions, 30 of which are in tunnels, spread over M11's Eastern extension, M14's Northern and Southern extensions, RER E's Western extension, and tram T3b's Western extension).
It's going to be transit-a-palooza in Paris every year till at least 2030 or 2032 !
Poma lifts offer several advantages over other types of lifts. They are safer than rope tows or T-bars as they don't have the risk of entanglement. If a passenger falls, he or she can let go of the tow bar and get clear of the track. Following skiers/riders can steer around the fallen victim, or the lift can be stopped. Furthermore, Pomas are cheap, much cheaper than the chairlifts that would replace many of them. They allow a fledgling ski area to get in on the ground floor at modest expense. They can be installed cheaply as well, doubled up, overlapped, doglegged, whatever it takes to cover a good size ski area. A ski area may install one to replace an outmoded, unsafe lift. Or a Poma lift might be used to offer access to terrain that doesn't have enough traffic to justify a chairlift. These three examples illustrate what the Poma lift can do well. In their detachable, or "slingshot" versions as in the video, they offer reasonably high capacity.
Detachable Pomas really don't use a grip; there's no gripping, clamping, squeezing, or hugging taking place. That C-shaped sleeve that the (wire) rope passes through simply puts a bind on the rope when the tow bar is released. Refer to 7:00+ minutes in the video. We called these sleeves "buttons," not to be confused with the button/disc/platter at the passenger end of the tow bar. When the tow bar enters the drive terminal, a ramp at the leading end of a rail lifts the arm that the button is attached to, relieving its bind on the rope. Gravity does the rest; the tow bar slides noisily into the magazine.
There are fixed-grip (surface) Pomas as well. In 1970 one was installed at Steamboat Springs' Howelsen Hill, replacing a condemed 1948 T-bar. It's still in service. The Poma lift continues to be a challenge for the skier or snowboarder who’s had little experience with riding a surface lift of any kind, referred to as “Poma Trauma.”
Bill Fetcher
Steamboat Springs,
Colorado, USA
This isn’t brute force, this is the elegance of simplicity. Achieving the result with the simplest possible solution is the apex of engineering. Reminds me of the story about the Soviet pencil vs the American space pen.
Poma lifts are so satisfying to watch. There is a second grip using only gravity the Giovanola Schwehrkraftklemme it was used on many gondolas from the 60‘s. Swiss manufacturer Bartholet is in the same Group together with Leitner and Poma.
Just the video I've always wanted on poma lifts! Thanks for your amazing work :)
You here, of course!
And I second your comment, amazing video with angles of shots I've never seen before!
I'm from France, so Poma's lift are everywhere, especially those ski lift. But they make a wide variety of differents ropeways, including 3S (they have made 2 in France so far)
If I'm not too mistaken, they also built the _Funiculaire Montmartre_ and probably at least one of the ropeways in Lyon as well. 🚠🇫🇷💯
Knowing the way Poma approach engineering challenges, I've often wondered if the _Funiculaire ND la Garde_ (Marseille, demolished 1970s) might've been one of their earlier creations?... 😇
Poma lifts really are an interesting sight for someone who almost exclusively skis in the eastern alps. I hope that some day, I will be able to ride one of those lifts myself.
They are quite different to ride, faster and for some reason I find them more comfortable than a dopplemary button lift.
They are quite popular in some of Eastern Europe (Poland, Slovakia, czechia)
That sound makes me dream of pistes in the middle of nowhere, that's where they are mostly operating. I also reminds me of the little skiers and boarders in my group launched in the air and holding on for dear life.
This is SO FASCINATING! Thank you for resolving yet another set of riddles I’ve had since childhood!
There is another way to turn a ski lift (the modern way). Just install a detachable chairlift and an angle station in which the chairs detach, and the rope turns without running into the chair grip. Then, the little slow-moving wheels turn the chairs. This can even work as a mid-load or unload station! Put it in one of your videos.
The Poma at Lake Louise will live in legend. Steep slope, non-detachable afaik, and brutal for snowboarders, it held the line against all but advanced skiers and expert snowboarders. Since its replacement the expert terrain has seen an unprecedented number of riders. The old gaurd remembers.
But was it a real "Poma" or really a loan word? I don't know
Quite common in scandinavia too. They are elegant, easy to catch, no bars hanging out in the weather, making fun sounds and more fun to mess around with.
Here in south French Alps thoise clinky noises are music to my ears : poma "Tire-fesses" ou "Tire-cul" working !
Here in the Northeast U.S. Attitash mountain in New Hampshire had a T-Bar that had a retractable line that was housed in a spool which was attached to the cable,two people could ride side by side or just one. This was on the bunny slope at the base of the mountain. These lifts were also throughout New England at various mountains. Cannon mountain had one at the top of the mountain which was always a thrill to ride. I enjoyed these lifts knowing that if someone ahead of you had a yard sale you could easily track around them and continue up to the top, and if the lift stopped you could easily get off and just ski away. The bar was usually placed behind your butt.
I started on Poma is in Slovakia. All these sounds are well written in my childhood memories. I had a bit of a respect of these machines. Ofcourse the current systems look less harmful but I still like the bruteforce approach of Pomas. Its one way to approach and solve a problem.
Fond memories…
Back in the 80s some friends and I were skiing in the French Alps. I remember one Poma lift That we just called the kangaroo lift or the ball breaker. The springs were all worn out so when the pole grabbed the cable, the telescope would extend without any rising tension to the point where it's just locked and pulled you for a 4 to 5 foot jump. You just had to be prepared for what was coming at you
Learnt to ski in Australia and the Poma lift was a big part of the thrill!
Worked on ski hills most of my life. This video was awesome.
THIS IS SO INTERESTING. I grew up in Volda, Norway which has these lifts at the Reset ski resort. I used to go skiing every single night as a kid and I always wondered how these worked. You have answered so many questions for me!
In Volda, you are not allowed to leave the lift other than at the very top. Probably because the mountain is very steep and the hill next to the lift isn’t prepared and only traversable by professionals - and the hill that is prepared starts on the other side of the mountain and wraps around. So every time someone jumps off, the lift stops for safety. Some days you would end up waiting in the middle of the hill for what felt like ages as a kid. Sometimes more people would run out of patience and hop off too, causing an even longer wait. This wasn’t often a problem though, as people from Volda are smart.
I love the simple but verry clever engineering on these. As a child I was always fascinated about there workings. And would sometimes just ski down quickly ahead off my family to just look and observe the operation. Standing there for 10 min. Sometimes I still do wit other lifts. I’m in my late 20s now.
You spoke about a electrical switching rod by the legs to detect release of a pole. A lot of these lifts also have a metal rod besides the pole that mechanically operates its release. With those you can put the cub between your legs and then give the pole a tug. So you can decide by your self when you want to go.
Although I love the engineering of these lifts. I try to avoid them. For especially in France. The first tug they give is verry unpleasant and can leave you with a sore back an butt. And the ones still operating in France are very very long most of the times. Like more than 15min standing and being pulled to the top. Witch (you can imagine) is a strain on your legs and leaves you exhausted when you reach the top.
I truly want to thank you fore these videos. Your behind the scene access answered a lot of questions I always had about these wonderful machines.
So Vielen Dank für all die Mühe, die Sie investiert haben
My local dry slope (UK, we only know of rain! 🇬🇧⛈😉) has three Poma ski tows, two of which have no spring dampening at all. To avoid that initial shock, what I do is position myself with the disc a bit behind my butt and then use my _arms_ to absorb the shock of the initial pull, gently moving the disc into the regular position once I'm in motion. It makes the ride a lot smoother, and really helps to avoid « _Pommes Anglais_ » too. 🍑🇬🇧😉
That said, my favourite kind of tow are the low-level ones where there's a steel handle for snowboarders. I'm 100% a skiier, but I find the snowboarders' handle _much_ easier to use, and good for building up strength in the arms as well! 🤘
When I was a teenager, we skiied at a small area in Quebec that had one of these, and I loved it--particularly being used to old, rattly, slow Hall t-bars. It had it all--the magazine, the big single wheels, and the rope-suspended bull wheel at the top. No electromagnet for launch, though--a grizzled old operator would pull a lever and away you'd go. I always wondered exactly how these worked, and fifty years later I finally have the answer. Thanks so much!!!
For me those ski lifts are the beginning of my skiing world. There are widely spread throughout Spain. They work perfectly and hope that will continue to do so for many many years!
We had a Poma lift in southern California, when it came down the steep part of Poma 3 it would realease and come into the bottom shack at like 40mph and sometime would be doing a twist around the cable. My favorite runs came from Poma 3 at Ski Sunrise!
Ha! I know this Poma lift, we went Skiing to Val d‘Anniviers / St. Luc in 2005 and I always referred to it as the Helvetic Open Air Museum of Ski Lift Technology (tm). It is sooo long, goes up and down and around the sharp corners… totally crazy! I also love the Top stations wobbling only on tension wires… you could not imagine anything more French… these are the Citroen DS of Ski lifts!
We had Pima lifts in Australia when I was a kid in the 70s (I guess they’re still there but I haven’t skied since). I always wondered how the connected after leaving the magazine …. now I know so thanks!
There's still one that operates at Fall Creek, international poma.
This kind of lift was the first I had experience with as a kid, skiing on small Slovakian slopes with lifts made by Tatrapoma. I remember these as somewhat scary, with the mysterious detachment mechanism and very fast speeds that made it easy to fall off if you didn't get a good grip in time. Nice to have them demistyfied after all yhese years!
Amazing video! In the USA we only have a handful Poma lifts remaining, but they are always fun to ride.
I've been wondering this for 30 years! Thanks!
Nice video and very interesting facts. Poma also has a telecabin. Many of the lifts in Iran 🇮🇷 are from them and doing good work since 50 years!
I love these lifts! The sudden jerk on take off, sending a lot of skiers into the air (my 6 year old ass included), the many turns and twists going up the hill. Have many fond memories of these Poma lifts in the Portes du Soleil region. Mainly at Torgon Ski Station. Untill they replaced them with t-bars and chairlifts though (mid 80’s). Always get a smile when seeing these old poma lifts. We in dutch call them “stangenlift”.
honestly I think the Poma lifts are more elegent due to their simplicity. Fewer moving parts, use of friction, and simple method of operation make them quite sophisticated.
Having grown up in France I didn’t even think there was another way. Poma is awesome. Long live this company and long live alpine skiing.
Thins kind of lift is extremely popular in Spain, we call them either "telesquí" or "percha". I've ridden them in Alto Campoo, Astún, Candanchú, Lunada… In fact it is where beginners go to learn. I never saw a T-bar lift until I visited Les Deux Alpes.
Nice video -- you took a topic that I thought I had zero interest in and made it fascinating. Thanks!
Learning to ride a pogo life is an essential experience when skiing!
Dropping out is also kind of fun … at least for everyone watching you.
HE IS BACK! i was so looking forward to your videos!
I've seen multiple times a platters lose their grip on the rope.
Usually it's empty platters on their way down stuck on a guide rail. They are usually shoved back in motion when hit by the next platter.
I'd been curious about how they attached, thanks for showing us. Any plans for a video on the new Bartholet rope taxi in Flims?
That would be an interesting one. "Seilbahn TV" made a pretty good video in german about it, that you may watch in the mean time 😀
This is such an amazing video! you always get the best shots and explanations! keep up the good work
Excellent video, I particularly like your slow motions of the pole passing the pulley and the clamping mechanism!
Thanks for having taken the time to explain Poma lifts, following the comments from the previous video.
Another funny side story: There used to be a lift of this type between Saint Martin de Belleville and Les Menuires where there was an actually intended possibility to disembark half way up the lift. Shortly before the position to disembark there was a sign in French, English and German. The German text read: "Für die Direktabfahrt nach Les Menuires Stange nach dem nächsten Ständer loslassen". The lift is gone for many years know, but I am still laughing :-D.
As someone who's only used the hanging-bench style lifts seeing these elevated rope toes is a novel experience. Where I usually Ski, the new lifts have been built by Leitner Poma. Alta Utah USA, has two lifts with notable turns, Collins has an angle station, where the chair is fully detached and re connected to a new cable, similar to how the endpoints are handled. And the new supreme lift uses a long, maybe 40-60ft series of wheels on three sides of the cable to make a gradual turn without detaching the chair. Supreme is letiner poma, Collins likely predates the mereger.
Excellent! You answered so many questions I had plus the ones I never had in just one video. Subscribed.
This was fascinating! Living in Suisse Romande I see a lot of these lifts, and I could never figure out the clamping/gripping system. Brute force is the key term here! And yes, there are only two ski lift companies left in the world: HTI and Doppelmayer Garaventa. The Americans couldn't keep up, because of the stricter European safety regulations.
This doesn't bode very well for me - A British Engineer who sees the French approach as the epitome of perfection - As someone who'd _love_ to build things like this. If _Made in America_ doesn't meet EU safety standards, than there is *bob-all* hope of any « _UKCA_ » solution ever managing it! 😳
Though that said; Given that « UKCA » means _„Will explode or spontaneously combust when used in accordance with the manufacturers directions“_ I can't see that being too popular a thing in any Winter sports destination... 🚠🇬🇧🔥😉
Oh the familiar sounds these lifts make, such great souvenirs over the years. Great video by the way.
Only ever known about poma lift. The funiest part is not the start, it generally happens when there is less snow than usual on the lift trail and it starts flat instead of going up : you'll often gain more speed than you should and start going faster than the cable, with hilarious consequences if you don't pizza right away like a beginer on its first green.
Up the mountain, the lack of snow can also transform the pole into a literal slingshot : the trail is 1.5m lower than what the lift was built for, the tension in the pole's spring is up to eleveen, and you can be sent flying a meter or more above the ground. good luck to keep your attitude and land with your skis in the right direction.
I write ski history and I have been trying to discover the fastest surface lift. There was a 6.5 metre per second poma-lift that operated at Mt Buller in Australia, although the speed caused injuries and it was slowed to 4 m/s after a few years. Has there ever been a faster conventional surface lift in the world? I know there is a 'slingshot' ski lift in South America, but that was never mass produced. Any ideas or comments on fast lifts would be appreciated. Thanks. 🙂
IM(vl)E just 4 m/s seems to be the fastest typical speed for most Poma systems, though I often wonder why they don't combine the grip technology from their cabin lifts to their Téléski product and have the rope running at 6-8 m/s. It'd _really_ get the thumbs-up from anybody at busy ski resorts! 👍
And not quite the same (And built by CINM/Pirelli, not Poma) but the fastest _Travolator_ in the world (Gare Magenta, Paris) operated at about 8 m/s I _think_ 😇
Up until 1988, Panorama resort in BC, Canada had a T-bar that did around 6 m/s. It went so fast, because it was the main lift from the base, and because it was so long. As a kid skiing there in the 80's the lift was as fun as, and sometimes more fun, than the actual skiing! ( due to the path would get quite bumpy as the day wore on, and you would actually catch air of some of the bumps riding up the hill)
Very nice video, simple, elegant and easily understood. Merci vielmals
Great video! I have always wanted to know how they attach and detach from the cable! Another brute force approach which is a bit cleaner than the poma lifts, is the Telecentre lift in Alpe d'huez which uses a clever grip to push the cable away from the wheels when the grip goes past :)
these used to air lift me at the start and sometimes in the middle of the ride too up to 1 meter high or more..... i would slow down going sideways and it would lift me up ..... that was great fun. just had to make sure i would not turn too much and land properly. i was in my early teen years so not weighty so much. catching a free one after the start was fun too ...
i was skiing yesterday on a poma lift in my home country, Bulgaria, where we have a lot of poma lifts :) and yet again i spent time trying to figure out how the grip is functioning! Thank you very much for this video! Couldn't be more on time! :)
Great video as always kalsan, please keep going, I liked your zermatt awesome ropeway compilation. You could do this for other skiing Areas
Cool video!
One other approach is used by the Sunshine Village Gondola in Alberta, Canada: detach the car from the haul rope, like at the terminal stations for unloading and loading, redirect the car onto the new course using rollers, and then reattach it to the haul rope.
Poma are also quite popular around Poland, Sloviakia and probably Czechia as well. Absolutely love them, better than T-bars unless you're out there to socialize.
That’s for the great lift videos!! In America getting into machinery space catwalks to see how this work is almost impossible! I love that you’re welcome to check things out where you explore.
I love the fact that they go faster. It's efficient more time on the slopes than on the lifts!
Regarding turns, Hohstock's solution is indeed more elegant and Poma's looks brute-forced. But I wouldn't say so for the clamping / jamming "mechanism" which, in my eyes, has the elegance of simplicity.
Nice video, btw, and your tone is quite enjoyable!
back in the early 70s in Michigan. It was rope tows and Poma lifts. I have a place in my heart for them, and I see where the economies of a Poma lift, and even the experience is nice just keeping you on the snow. and the sounds and the sensations are unforgettable.
A lot of metal on metal. I remember those springs breaking, and some of that telescoping poles that would cover up the springs on different types breaking as well. And you can see from the lubrication and the metal ski suit is going to have a lot more grease on it.
I’ve been skiing in the Eastern Swiss Alps for the last 10 years but before that it was the western French Swiss Alps. I had to get myself back to the west and ride some Pomas. Thank you!
I was a Liftie in Steamboat years ago, we had a chair lift with no emergency brake. It relied purely on friction not to roll back.
As Poma Ski lift operator, there is certain situation when the user is too light (children) and not enough snow that make the pole disengage the grip from the cable, and then create an anomalies that we called a grape. When this anomaly occur the user is sliding back until he reach the next user or the head get stuck until the next head is coming to push it.
I come from Switzerland (Suisse Romande) and you said it very well! well done!
Even that traffic light at 6:04 is highly likely original one, as I remember those as a kid. Spring can lift a small kid in the air, happen to me multiple times when snow pack was low.
That's a hilarious design, and I think you are correct calling it brute force! I love it, and another great video!
Really cool to know about that grip, I've always wondered! Love these poma lifts, rugged little things to get you almost anywhere on the mountain. They just don't have the uplift capacity for modern mega-resorts, but that usually means the pistes from the top are quieter.
Interestingly in North America what we call poma lifts are essentially a t-bar, but with something closer to the bottom of the poles on the lift in the video instead of the t-shaped part.
I am happy I now know what these lifts are called, and heck I love them so much
I think I might have ridden one of these years ago when we were skiing in a French canton in Crans-Montana Switzerland. They moved pretty quickly and if one didn't correctly sit on that disk at the end of the pole, one didn't get a ride uphill. One got a flip, a drag, and maybe a disengaged ski in the process.
Awesome design and as soon as you showcased how the lift turns the grip 90 degrees it made sense that these must use some sort of angled friction. Those heads are probably cheap and easy to replace since theres no moving parts. awesome design!
I have wondered so much about how the clamping works, now I have learned! Thanks for that.
However I still wonder whether the big wheels put less strain on the steel cables than other lifts with the many small wheels.
I never thought that these lifts are specially violent. I always assumed the only reason these lifts are not very popular outside of France is that they have a lower capacity compared to a T-Bar because they carry only one person per pole (although I have no idea if there is really and engineering-reason not to put a T-Bar on a Poma lift). I wonder though if the lifts of this type I rode in the past 20 years (in 3 vallees, France) were actually going at 4m/s. They always felt slower to me.
Excellent video - I am enjoying every one of them. Keep on making them, many thanks. On the Poma-lift: Interesting and simple mechanism. Seems it creates more wear and tear on the cable?
The cable is made from much harder material. The grip receives the wear.
simple and well built.
Reminds me of a Citroen I had years ago. Thanks!
Omg you illuminated my inner child soul 🤩 And by that I also mean so many memories of being a little kid falling from the lift during that damn scary turn that yanked me off!
The most awesome part is that 30 years later I finally know how those "clamps" work!
Suffice to say I watched all your other videos as I too was fascinated by those machines growing up and still am. Now, please do a funitel like the ones in Val Thorens, pretty pleeeeeeease 🙏🥹
In any case, thks a lot for the revived memories.
Safe slopes,
Re discovering your channel and subscribed!
You have to go visit the ropeways in Val Thorens, if you haven't already, it's one of the resorts in the 3 Vallées mega resort in France, the largest in the world.
They have very special machines, like double loading chairlifts and the gantry / machinery is incredible.
A good chunk of it is easily visible and I'm mesmerized every time!
These videos are very interesting and satisfying. 😂
Kudos
Yes, funitel all the way!
@@F8Full Yup ! They have something like 4 funitels in Val Thorens only if I recall correctly. I don't remember if there are other funitels in the other constituent resorts of the 3 Vallées mega resort.
The codename for funitels is FUN, that says it all! 😄
But the most interesting machines in my opinion are the double loading chairlifts and their fantastic gantry and machinery. They have a nice big selection of those in Val Thorens!
A double loading 6-seater either has a 12 person wide loading line or two 6-person loading lines at different angles or with an acceleration carpet to load 2 chairs at once one behind the other. With chairs moving around suspended on rails to realign themselves behind each other and be launched onto the line.
It's mesmerizing !
And the throughput of these machines is huge...!
There are at least 4 different double loading 6-seaters in Val Thorens alone :
There's one called Cascades, next to the Péclet funitel, and it's inside a building, so the gantry is under the ceiling instead of the usual chairlift station.
It was the first double loading chairlift in the world when it was built in 1995 by Doppelmayr and is capable of carrying up to 4500 per hour if I recall correctly. With over 100 seats and a frequency of 5.4 seconds!
There's also "La Portette" dual loading 6-seater, I think it's a Garaventa (now Doppelmayr ?), it was built in 2014.
Another older dual loading 6-seater called "la Moutière" which was built by POMA in 1997. This one was initially built as standard single loading but was modified to add the double loading system in 1998 and increase capacity from 2800 to 3600 passengers per hour with almost 120 seats. This one has its two loadings roughly perpendicular to each other.
There's the Plein Sud double loading 6-seater too, it dates back to 1998 and was built by Doppelmayr.
It carries 4000 skiers per hour and has about 140 seats.
This one has a 6 + 6 lateral loading and the line goes through a portion of the village.
Val Thorens has crazy machines, they only lack a 3S and a funicular, like the great underground one in Tignes called Perce-Neige (snowpiercer) or the one in Val d'Isère called Funival. They also lack an 8-seater but they seem to prefer a double loading 6-seater over an 8-seater.
Maybe one day they'll introduce a double loading 6-seater! Not sure if double loading 8-seaters already exist somewhere but I've seen sliding carpet loading 8-seaters that allow for shorter boarding and increased frequency (reduced spacing between seats).
Usually the ropeways in the "mega resorts" of the Tarentaise Valley (also called the Olympic Valley since 1992's winter Olympics), are pretty massive and super efficient. The mega resorts of the Tarentaise Valley are gigantic and host a huge number of people in winter.
So the lift systems they have must be really fast and efficient. A bit like Disneyland has double boarding roller-coasters.
The Tarentaise Valley (France) is to skiing what Orlando is to theme parks and entertainment.
The 3 Vallées mega resort is like Disney World, and the other mega resorts, Espace Killy (made of Tignes and Val d'Isère) or Paradiski (Les Arcs, Peisey-Valandry and La Plagne) are like the Universal and SeaWorld theme park resorts.
With the only exception that the mega resorts of the Tarentaise Valley all have the same majority owner and thus offer free days in other mega resorts when you have a weekly pass.
Some call them "industrial skiing factories" because they cater to hundreds of thousands of visitors, but the ski domains are so huge and the lifts so efficient that you don't see much difference with a small family resort.
You can even feel more "alone in the wild" in these mega resorts than in smaller ones, thanks to the shear gigantic size of their skiing areas, and to the huge height difference between the highest and lowest points of these resorts.
Plus, you spend a lot less time in the lifts given how efficient and fast they are.
Val Thorens is an absolute must for any ropeways fan ! (And for fantastic skiing too).
In my experience these lifts are perfect revenue stream for the manufacturer as they are inexpensive to install but need a constant flow of replacement parts.
I didn't think Poma were British?... 🚠🇬🇧🙃
Thank you for this video. ive always wondered how this type of lift works as it has no clear visible grip. Just one question tho: wont this ruin the rope line? like slowly damage the rope and make it thinner/weaker at some spots due to the friction when it attach?
poma lifts are indeed brutal. as a child i was a lot of times lifted completely up in the air by these lifts and kept there sometimes 10 meters, as long as i didn't jump off the lift. it was in slovakia, i guess they maintained the lifts not as good as in switzerland and this phenomenon was only happening at temperatures under -10°C. the teleskope was just frozen and not moving.
fun fact: the poma lift has much more weight compared to the rope mechanism and by swinging it up-down or left-right you can induce a wave in the cable so violent, that the other passangers's teleskopes are also shaking.... a friend told me ;)
I had completely forgotten about that amusing fact!!
Used them as a French kid in the 90s.
As teenagers, we would start playing around by putting our skis perpendicular to the motion so we would come to a stop and elongate the pole spring before realeasing and get a big boost. We even once did it as a bunch and got to resonance. It derailed. Suffice to say we quickly flew the scene 🫣
@@F8Full oh yes, the perpendicular stops we did too. i still do it with 3x... i mean friends of mine do it.
wow, you derailed it? :D that's crazy.
i still prefer this lift over the cabines, it's much less complicated and you can play and ski on the way up.
Poma lifts are violent as heck! I weigh a lot and I was on one in Flaine this year that lifted me quite a few feet through the air at launch. I've seen younger skiers get quite a flight from them. On one in Italy, I'm sure I cleared a couple of meters!!!
Interesting how you find a mechanised approach more elegant. For me, being able to solve a problem with less parts and no moving parts is always a more elegant solution. Especially if it backs it up by lasting 50 years!
California’s “Sierra at Tahoe” (formerly “Sierra Ski Ranch”) got its start in the early 50’s with a single Poma lift. It was brilliantly operated and maintained by Vern Sproc who went on to develop one of the West’s major ski areas above the site of the original resort.
It (the original Poma lift) supposedly was eventually moved to the Plumas-Eureka ski area near Blairsden /Graeagle in Plumas County.
You are correct.
@@skitown11
I was in the area of Plumas Eureka a couple of years ago, in the summer, and decided to look up the ski area; ‘maybe see the old Pomalift I had skied/ridden on fifty years before. All I could find was a huge asphalt parking lot. ‘not sure I’d found what I was looking for. ‘maybe abandoned?
I am reminded of a skiing dictionary I got decades ago that described a poma lift as a failed attempt at inventing an automatic spanking machine. now that I've seen the details on how they are made, I fully appreciate the joke.