In-Depth Analysis of Tesla Semi Data (Freightliner and Volvo too!)
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
- Analysis of data from the Run on Less Electric Depot (Days 1-5). Some numbers were not what I expected. #ev #teslasemitruck #freightlinertrucks #volvotrucks #nikola
Visit runonless.com/
0:00 Run on Less
1:45 Battery State of Charge
3:23 Charging Speed
6:26 Range (miles)
9:34 Efficiency (kWh/mile)
14:05 Wrap-it-Up
Until you know what the weight is that they are hauling, your you dont have a clue. Your missing the most important data!!
Interesting data. It's too bad that the companies are not giving real world data. I am retired but worked for Pepsi (Tulsa) Several trucks (OTR) did daily runs to the Dallas warehouse (250 miles). Their return trip were never empty. Deadheading is loss of revenue. Anyway, good reporting. Cost analysis would be nice info too. EV cost per mile vs ICE.
The Internet says a trucker can average 605-650 miles a day over 11 hours. Throw in a team of drivers and it's limited to the range of the truck, maybe 1200 miles+ with the right setup. Granted this isn't what a beer or soda guy would do.
The Tesla semi weighs, 20-27k pounds while a common Kenworth t680 weighs 14,2000.
That's a lot of lost freight and miles. Marketing stunt it would seem.
I keep saying the Edison hybrid semi can do everything the Tesla can without even being built for highway use. How a 27,000 lbs offroad logging semi outclasses a purpose built highway truck is embarrassing.
At less than $1/gal equivalent fuel costs, the time spent charging and miles lost will be far less than the money saved. Charging time will be the best money truckers make in a day.
None of the routes are straight OTR hauling, so the comparison is irrelevant. They said they do typically 8-12 destinations in a day. You can't do 600+ miles when you have to stop and unload multiple times.
That 27,000 pound weight for the tesla semi is the lowest best guesstimate but not unreasonable guess. The Nikola EV is 29,000 lbs with a significantly smaller battery. The people that are knowledgeable about trucks that have seen the tesla, report that they are built very “lightly” which goes against the trucking industry’s standards for reliability. Proterra went that path on their EV buses and had a lot of cracking (& lawsuits), but they went bankrupt. So maybe why tesla is taking so long is that they are relearning the lessons that traditional OEMs learned along time ago.
@@randgrithr7387 It does not outclass it when CO2 emissions are considered and that is the most important thing.
Having half the battery capacity of the Tesla means that the Freightliner and Volvo can take higher payload since the battery is lighter. So they are moving more freight using the same amount of energy.
Good point
Oversimplification. Terrain plays a huge part. Tesla motors, etc. are second to none.
When you are hauling chips you never max out at 82k
Half the battery means half the range.
The reality of trucking is that most loads are VOLUME limited, not weight-limited.
The Tesla Semi is already able to reach 44,000 to 48,000 lbs net weight, so it's able to cover the majority freight loads at it's battery capacity and is within a few thousand pounds of diesel trucks legal limits. The Volvo and Freightliner don't have a payload advantage
Great information 😊
Seems like they are better than I thought they would be. I thought they would be fine especially for local deliveries. Once they get the megachargers in place it will be easy for them to go across the country. Not sure what the charge times are.
With the current 750 kW Megachargers, 80% SOC in 1 hour, the remaining 20% in another hour. Most operators will probably only charge to 80%, unless they have a really long leg, fully loaded, after they charge; both to minimize charging time, and to maintain battery health. Reducing the load somewhat from 43,000 lbs. will permit the rated 500 miles on 80% charge, or they can carry a full load but only go 400 miles. Statistics show that 83.6% of trips are under 400 miles, so this will usually not be an issue.
F the battery charging crap, what is its useful load? They can't carry as much as the standard truck so it's a fail.
@@davidsoom1551300mi Tesla semi weights
@@davidsoom1551 The truck is no more then 4000 punds havier then a diesel. EV trucks have 2000 extra payload by law. Tesla semi also have the hardware capability to drive themselves and will in the not too distant future. Also consider that this is the worst the technology will be from now (as in, it will only get better). It s not a fail, it s the litteral future!
Do your research, invest in Tesla.
@@davidsoom1551 Imagine two things: world would as well realized that global warming is a problem. And second is that america is the only worldwide producer of oil who‘s politically not problematic / not autocracy.
Every gallon of oil used strenghtens iran, uae, russia.
So it might be a good idea reducing usage of fossiels as possible from both perspectives.
This does not mean that every car, truck and so on needs 100% to be replaced. E.g. a company producing heavy iron parts won‘t change to electric within next years probably.
But for many many loads an electric truck matches good. And it helps.
Additionally it is possible that the costs per mile are lower than ICE trucks (this needs to be provef by time but it looks like the concept of ev is pretty strong in low repair costs).
So it is a win-win for everyone if there are companies who are capable of habdling their loads electric.
I will never understand why people hate „cost reduction“, „weaken autocrats“ and „enviromental care“ with the point of „but you cant go 1000 miles with 5 tons of metal parts with the toy trucks“.
Thats just silly…
_I only see a brief moment of regen braking, right after summiting Donner Pass on the way up_
Actually, there's *more* on the way back. There's some significant regen braking just after topping Donner Summit on the return leg, including picking up almost 2% SOC starting at 9:55.
Being "maxed out" at 82K lbs still doesn't tell us how heavy the payload is. Without this, we're not learning anything. And a company that wont provide this most important of information in specking out a truck, they're hiding vital information. Go spec a transport truck. I don't think you're going to find a transport company that will purchase a truck that doesn't provide all the specs. No jumping to conclusions necessary if they aren't giving you all the specs. They're hiding something vital.
I stumbled across some data in the video I did for WattEV. At the 5:55 mark I summarize the info. czcams.com/video/6Okmg6PpmAA/video.htmlsi=JEowzdcH0-JOJ25V
…basically, yes I am still looking for hard data on how much more a BEV Tractor (or Hydrogen Fuel Cell) weighs more than a Diesel. I’ll be sure to make a video if (when) I get better data.
At a recent talk, a rep from Tesla shared that the 300mi Tesla semi weights
@@truhartwood3170 Here's a strange consideration. 300 mile tesla semi weighs
@@RichardRoy2 The range is with a full load (82,000lbs GVW), no total elevation change, at an average of 55mph, with a temp around 70°C/20°C (though low temperatures don't matter nearly as much with the huge battery pack). This is what they're experiencing real-world with third-party testing, not just Tesla's/Elon's claims.
@@truhartwood3170 I'm sure there are some out there who would find that enough. Not many, though. As I said, it's PR, not industry oriented.
Will be interesting to see how Tesla adapt to different markets. In some EU markets like Finland and Sweden some highways allows 34.5 m and 74 metric tons. While other use and in many cities, they have to be able to drive in narrow streets. Also, there are regulations how long a driver is allowed to drive, and charging can be done during resting period.
That depends if you can get the charging time to coincide with the rest period.. it's something that happens for real world truckers of course; the regs say you must rest NOW but you just put fuel in the truck and stopped for coffee.
The range is not something people discuss in Europe. What is important is to adapt to regulations for different markets and needs. Probably that is why Volvo corp has close to half the market of heavy electric trucks. And electric buses all around in cities as well.
@@colinmacdonald5732 This makes no sense. You can adapt one to the other! xD
The charging limits have nuances.
It's not charging above 80% and depleting below 20% that is the problem. It's leaving the battery outside of that over time.
So for regular driving you can use the whole range, just charge all the way and go and then charge above 20 when finished.
I believe this is wrong. The phisical access and expulsion of electrons is what damages the battery. The dynamic nature is responsable for the degradation.
Does anyone know how much it costs to replace the battery on these trucks? Also, how long will these trucks last? Thanks
Can we have comparison at diesel truck to same route?
Agree it would be interesting but not much point. All the electric trucks are going to be significantly cheaper to run and maintain. The days of doubting that electric trucks can work are over. Yes still need the trucks and chargers.
Not much of a point. It s just worst technology all around.
@@danharold3087how long will the batteries last and how much do they cost to replace? Transport trucks go over a million miles before an engine rebuild. Do you believe an electric truck battery is going to last this long ?
@@lucadellasciucca967 Yeah, but eventually the electrics will get better
@@donhappel9566 I was reffering to diesel... And of course i m talking about potential. Electric is a better technology the ICE of any kind once maxed out.
Awesome 😎
Lithium ION batteries are limited to 80% as Lithium metal precipitates on the electrodes at high charge levels.
Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are recommended to be charged to 100% at least weekly on the other hand. (Tesla manual data).
Charging to 100% is not that big a deal provided you don't leave them at 100% - I'd say they've sorted out their charging so it finishes charging just before it begins the next route.
Degradation happens due to the dynamic nature of the battery.
Toronto to Montreal , Canada is about 500 miles, and the speed limit on the 401 highway is 100kph(62mph)Walmart and Loblaws and Pride group logistics have ordered the Tesla Semi.
In the winter the average speed is probably half that because you spend 2-3 hours inching forward gridlocked in traffic. How is the Tesla semi going to keep the cab warm sitting in traffic for hours not even moving when it's -20C ?
@@ansmerek Electric trucks tend to have somewhat better insulation and heatpumps, no? Driving slower might actually offset the difference for a truck.
@@matejlieskovsky9625 I suppose a portable heater could be a solution
@@ansmerek Talk about a non issue. They could sit in traffic pretty much forever.
Diesel trucks... Not so much. Not to mention you need to keep the engine running for heat.
@@themonsterunderyourbed9408 so how does the driver of an electric car stay warm for 2-3hrs not moving in traffic when it's -25C ? Running batteries for heat ?
In the mean time, Deisel trucks can travel up to 4 times the distance before needing to refuel. On average of 1500 to 2000 miles of range.
And “recharge” in about 10 minutes. All while carrying a bigger load. Oh and they are cheaper to buy and to maintain.
So where is the economic incentive for companies to switch to electric?
I .? the maintenance part of diesel truck and you have to add up the time to maintain the diesel truck? I could be wrong. Could you tell me what maintenance the electric truck need I know braces may last 4 to 5 x longer no oil change,oil filter and a of other item
@@prof.crastinator It s called money savings. It happens in maintainance and fueling. Writing words on a youtube comment doesn t make them true xD
Do your research, invest in Tesla
@@lucadellasciucca967 Where is this money savings, exactly?
Guy who literally just wrote something in a you tube comment and expected people to believe it?
1. Tesla semi costs more initially. (More than double)
2. The infrastructure needed to charge quickly (still not very quickly) costs millions, negating any fuel savings.
3. The packs tesla uses (nca chemistry) cannot last the lifetime of rapid charges that these semis will require. A diesel truck lasts from 500k to 1million miles- a tesla semi will need multiple pack rebuilds or more likely replacements to last the same- these will far outpace normal maintenance on a diesel semi.
4. Then there is the 1/4 the range, 3/4 the load and much much more downtime while charging…
Where is the benefit!?
@@prof.crastinator Can t wait to see your face when semis are all over! xD Good luck mate.
Oh and i didn t ask anybody to believe anything. I don t care! The lower the stock price the bettere for me! Don t buy people! For the love of god, don t do your research!
need a part 2 on smaller trucks
I’ll be interested to see what the range and efficiency numbers look like after a year of being run like that. I think that will give a good indication of how well these trucks can compete with their diesel counterparts
How does the cost of operation compare to diesels?
That's the #1 selling point of EVs - far lower operational costs and lower total cost of ownership.
How will they perform in harsh weather conditions knowing how the batteries perform in the cold especially
The mass of the battery pack in a semi makes them pretty impervious to weather vs a car. Also, the newest batteries still retain 90% of their power down to - 20°C. So a non-issue basically.
Tesla has the best battery termomanagement system on earth. The cold has major effects on the efficiency of ICE vehicles.
Also don t think too much about the
@@lucadellasciucca967 Even with "the best thermal management" Tesla cars/SUVs are still effected by the cold quite a bit, so that's not a great argument. The better argument for semis, specifically, is that because the pack is the size of 11 car battery packs, and they're all in a big brick, the volume to surface ratio is drastically larger, so heat isn't stripped away as fast.
Combine that with the amount of power they're using and the pack can heat up quite nicely even when the weather is extremely cold.
On top of that, electric cars use most of their power to get warmed up, but then need very little power to stay warm. So if you're get into a cold car, driving 5 min, then stop and let the car get cold, then get back in a driving for 5 min, eover and over, you're range is going to be way way shorter than if you got it, heated up once, and then kept driving. This is also why it's good to get your EV reheating while it's still plugged in, as the you're range will be practically the same as if it was 20°C. Anyway, since the semi is operating for much longer periods, it doesn't have to use energy to constantly heat up over and over. For all these reasons, the semi is almost impervious to weather vs an EV. Combine that with the fact that, as I said in my last post, newer batteries are showing 90% power at - 20°C/-4°F, and it's pretty much a non-issue.
Interesting info. I think EVs will take over easy routes in the future. But there will still be market for diesels in Alaska and northern regions where lithium meets its physics reality.
EVs work great in cold climates, better than IC engines. Li-ion powered cars are working well in northern Canada cities like Edmonton, and the most northern parts of Norway.
Mike, your analysis of the first five days was extremely useful; is there any chance that you're planning to extend this to then entire run? Having done some of the calculation, this would obviously be a monumental effort; but would likely drive the last nail into the coffins of the haters.
And if not, is there anyway to get a copy of your spreadsheet, so I might take a run at extending it myself? Perhaps on Google Sheets, such that I could make a copy for my use? Thanks for at least considering this!
A simplistic analysis.
True. There s a million ways the Tesla semi is better then any other option. Do your research, invest in Tesla.
@@lucadellasciucca967 Troll. Probably bought Tesla stock at a ridiculous price and is desperate to see it recover.
@@maxhugen Not really. Didi my research for the past 5 years. I bought 116 times in the last 2 and a half years. Dollar cost averaging. When i have money i buy. Got to under 200 per share average last month and i won t stop buying untill the market cap is above 1.5 trillions or so! :)
Do your research, invest in Tesla.
How about... calculate cost per mile driven, at a certain load?
may be 100% charging its a test trials thing, or lease contracts structure gives a "go" for full use of truck and batt degradation is in price
It would be great for a manufacturer to tell them to work them hard. If they break, then learn from it.
@@mikethecargeek That's actually Tesla's mantra.
Pepsi also mentioned regenerative change along routes there go the 1.7 is more than possible
Would like to see data on down time for break downs and repairs
And data on cost of maintenace
The data would have to include the support equipment too
I would take Pepsi at their word about energy consumption. They have the exact numbers for the energy used. You were estimating based on an assumption about usable battery capacity. Your quess might be correct on the day the truck left the factory but you didn't take into account the initial battery degradation. I have a five year old Model 3. It was supposed to have 310 miles of range, today it has 288. Almost all of that degradation happened the first year, the degradation since then had been very small. Pepsi drives their trucks much harder than i drive my car. The initial degradation probably happen in the first month vs the first year for a car so the usable capacity for their packs will be at least 10% less then when new. Given that they might be putting 100-200K miles per year on the tricks the degradation is likely more than 10%. But using the 10% number that would account for the entirety of the difference between Pepsi's 1.7KWh per mile and your 1.9KWh.
It would have been nice to include the cost difference per mile vs diesel.
Hmmm can't wait to see them on the show ice Road Truckers!😅😅😅😅
Actually a lot of trucking today runs up' against reliability issues and high maintenance costs
At 12:19, the first two legs were from Sacramento to Reno and back. Sacramento is near sea level; Reno is at around 5,000 ft.; and they're topping Donner Summit at around 7,000 feet at about the halfway point. You can actually see where the trace turns from steeply down to not-so-steeply down in the first run, around 4:00 AM; and somewhat down to a little less down on the return, at around 9:30 AM; that's the point where they end the climb to Donner pass at around 7,000 feet and start back down, in both directions. On the return, as you assumed, they're getting the benefit of both (presumably) being lightly loaded, and the energy from the 5,000 net climb returned through reduced energy demand; although I only see a brief moment of regen braking, right after summiting Donner Pass on the way up.
That is one steep climb to include in an efficiency test. Even though you do regain some energy on the decline you will always spend more.
An additional factor on that route would be how much time the Tesla Semi would save as it is capable of running at max highway speed up and down that incline, no fossil fuel vehicle can maintain and accelerate up those slopes after holdups like the Tesla Semi.
@@jjamespacbell Well, I *think* I know what you're saying. And to support your position, here's a Tesla Semi loaded to 82,000 lbs. GCVW with 44,000 lbs. of concrete highway barriers, accelerating rapidly (watch the speedometer) up a 6% grade on the same pass (Donner Summit), passing a diesel semi creeping up the hill in low gear as if it were standing still: czcams.com/video/LtOqU2o81iI/video.htmlfeature=share&t=985.
I'm curious with these claims. Is that fully loaded both directions or 1 direction like many trucks? Are they loosing load or not, that would reflect in loss of earnings or more vehicles on the road. I don't think we have the whole truth here yet, and still doesn't have the advantages of diesel power. We really need more information.
The SoC data being published is almost certainly the "useable" SoC after the BMS calibration limits have been applied ie when the data says the truck is charged to 100% the battery cells are NOT actually at their peak voltage, merely that the battery has been charged to the level which the manufacturer has selected. Typically for an HGV application there will be something between 10 and 15% buffer capacity that is not "useable" at least not when the battery has a 100% SoH.
This does not seem to be a fair comparison. Tesla Semi is obviously using 2 drivers per day and charging 3 times per day. With 1 driver and charging twice, a realistic range could be 500 to 600 miles in fast traffic.
But where's the unfair comparison? 1 driver in a diesel semi can still only drive 605 miles a day, because of the California 55 MPH speed limit, and the HOS limitation of 11 hours on duty.
@@BigBen621. No, not unfair to the diesel. Unfair to the other electric trucks in this comparison. The others are not doing the 2 driver per day things as Pepsi Tesla Semi does. Tesla obviously has more range but the comparison would be confusing for normal people who do not read the details.
@@erkantruckvlog I think if people are watching this video, they are not normal. They are the type that want to know the details.
This is a totally fair comparison. Pepsi obviously runs a 24 hour operation, whereas, the other companies are only operating a single shift. Each company purchased their respective trucks based on their operating requirements. I doubt that the other trucks could have filled PepsiCo's operational requirements. PepsiCo spent years planning for the arrival of their Tesla Semis and installed the charging infrastructure necessary to support their 24 hour operation. If PepsiCo only ran a single shift each day, they could have saved a ton of money by installing 50 to 75 percent less charging capacity (which is what the other companies did).
I believe that PepsiCo is achieving their 1.7 kw per mile range on their entire fleet. The trucks that are being tested in the Run on Less event are Pepsi trucks which, as you mentioned, are probably hauling heavy beverage loads, while the Frito Lay devision is hauling lighter weight, high cube, loads. Still, the numbers you are looking at, are within Tesla's announced specifications for the Semi and better than the other trucks in the competition which are presumably hauling lighter loads.
hilly roads aren't necessarily terrible for range if they can return downhill and gain back much of the range loss with regenerative braking.
In your video you state that the Pepsi trucks are hauling liquid. How do you know that? Maybe they are hauling the cardboard containers that they pack the sodas in. Maybe they are hauling empty bottles. My point is I have never seen anyone talk about the useful load of any of these trucks. And maybe I missed it somewhere but I am especially talking about the Tesla Simi. In order to determine the useful load we have to know how much it weighs. Can anyone tell me what the curb weight of an empty truck is? If you can't give me that number everything else is irrelevant. I am a truck driver and I also fly airplanes. Depending on how much fuel I take on in the airplane I could then calculate a useful load. Useful load is baggage and passengers. If I can't find the curb weight of the truck and trailer empty, or unladen weight subtracted from the gross weight equals useful load. In the trucking industry useful load is very important to making money. I do appreciate your video, but I'm dying to see a scale certificate of an empty Tesla semi with a trailer. There are CAT scales at almost every truck stop. I don't hate the Tesla semi, but Elon musk over promises and undelivers. When am I getting my roadster? When am I getting a robotaxi? I just spent a week and a half in a 2023 Model 3 and there is no way to do autonomous driving with cameras alone. The backup cameras routinely failed the autopilot routinely failed The only redeeming feature that I liked actually I loved is the fact that the cars a rocket ship. If I owned one I'd be going through tires and brakes like crazy. I know it has regenerative braking but when you're driving it as fast and hard as I was regenerative breaking wasn't enough. I had a great time in the rocket ship for a week and a half.
Why aren't they giving running weights ie size of load carried and gross weight
Cuz if they do they show the tesla semi cant really compete
There is no way that an electric semi would work for OTR drivers, or a company that runs OTR. California running freight from the ports to the state line, yes. But we sleep in those things while using electricity On the side of the road, You Won't be able to charge them overnight even at a truck stop, Cold weather renders them almost useless, You get about a third of the range that a diesel truck gets, And it takes 8 times longer to charge that it does to fuel a diesel truck. We tried doing this over a hundred years ago and we chose to go with diesel trucks.
Ridiculously uninformed comment. The Tesla semi charges from 10%-90% in 45 min. That's not much over the 30 min break. Chargers aren't at truckstops yet obviously but you could be fully charged after you 10hr break with a simple tesla v2 supercharger. So even 400 miles on the 1st leg, another 300 after the 30 break. Pretty simple. They'll work if there's enough charging infrastructure just like passenger evs now.
Do you think there has been no progress in batteries over the last 100 years? 🤣 Also, cold doesn't affect the huge semi battery due to its huge mass to surfact area. Also, newest batteries still maintain 90% of their power down to - 20°C.
I’m not a big fan of electric but saying “we tried this once, 100 years ago” is one of the most stupid things I’ve read all week.
Ev trucks might work as a local hauler. Especially in ultra liberal cities that force it. But will never work on long hauls.
The absolute solution for Class 7 and 8 EV Trucks is construction and LTL.
LTL city driving and a short highway runs 250 miles and under.
Construction - dump trucks, end dumps, and garbage trucks.
It's hard to imagine how FedEx and UPS have not contracted to get an EV something like Wal-Mart and Amazon.
My BS meter blew the main breaker......
Your BS meter sucks. Do your research, invest in Tesla.
Looking at third-party data about these trucks' real-world numbers gathered from actual, working delivery routes blew your BS meter? I think you are confusing a "BS" meter with your "personal bias" meter.
@@lucadellasciucca967 hah how's that been working out for ya lately?
@@GraveUypo Key word "invest" my guy! I ve bought 65 times in the last 365 days xD More than once a week! Have been able to bring my average share price below 200 dollars :)
Dollar cost averaging. Over 10 years investment orizon 😘
@@lucadellasciucca967 Do your research, invest in Toyota
This is a long way from “Defies the laws of physics “
FWIW, Daimler was talking about buying a Tesla Semi to test in Germany, and said "The laws of Physics are the same in California and in Germany," not that Tesla's semi "defies the laws of Physics." I think Bill Gates did say something to that effect though, but he knows very little about trucking or EV powertrains, so not worth paying attention to. Daimler, on the other hand, is the world's largest truck manufacturer.
Interesting things that are becoming very clear with EV transit buses is that the battery degradation rate is significant (and very important) and the lower utilization rate of a large EV vehicle requires “MORE VEHICLES IN THE FLEET” to fulfill the same requirements. This is why some applications are better met by other technologies. Already some companies that serve California “shipping ports” who tried EV semis are moving to other technologies.
Well stated.
The latest batteries are showing minimal degradation after 1.5 million km. They're also way cheaper now, have almost double the capacity, charge in almost half the time, and barely lose any power down to - 20°C. And the improvements are actually accelerating, not slowing down. So we're nowhere near the pinnacle of how good battery tech can get.
@@truhartwood3170
IfUSāSō, problem is that nobody told the real life batteries that. This is what the local transit district is actually seeing in real life.
@@Mentaculus42 they're not using the latest batteries, so that's not relevant.
@@truhartwood3170 "double the capacity"? This is total BS!
They should be using lithium titanate faster charging no temperature problems no issues charging 100 percent or going to zero 30,000 cycles
The freightliner is more "popular" because it has been made available to other companies. Tesla is working with one company not because others do not want it, but because they do not want to make it available. The freightliner is like an early Chevy volt with 120 km range. It is what they can make.
because they're not able to make it available.
I think including ReGen is kind of irrelevant. Going up a hill consumes far more energy than is regained on the way back down and it’s not different than an ice vehicle coasting, basically getting free mpg. The big difference is that an ice vehicle consumes its fuel and becomes lighter over time making it more efficient the closer to empty.
We own a Kia EV & love it, but know very little about EV semi’s. I’d love to see the fleet move to electric for the quiet engine & pollution free. Eventually, I’d love to see diesel use severely restricted. It’s always made me mad whenever I see the smoke belching from a semi & doubly mad a big diesel pickups that are obnoxiously loud & pouring out fumes & smoke!🤢
❤❤❤❤
it seems EVs both commrecial/passenger, working trucks/cars, in general seem to be decent, if not quite good. But their longterm say min 10yrs+ and/or over 150k miles mileage life seems a bit more iffy and ymmv. There are outlier vehicles hitting 200-300k, but they're more rarer.
Tesla is guaranteeing them for 1 million miles. Best batteries coming out right now have 1.5 million km/15 year warrantees.
Long term the game in this is going to be to get power behind the meter (self-owned solar/wind etc.) charging something like a megapack, add whatever line power at low draw $ rates to max the megapack and then dump charge at fast rates. Anything they can do to generate some of that megapack charge level , will be money in the bank.
To move heavyweight work. Heavy machinery. Hydrogen fuel is the way to go with fuel cell. Or an ice motor
Wasn’t it going down hill?
Tesla truck would make up some of the time charging by going up the summit twice as fast as a diesel truck
The Only electric Truck that I can see as Useful is the Volvo FL.
Used in Local or Short Regional Routes, in Stop and Go Deliveries/Multiple Points such as Door to Door.
Then Electric Commercial Vehicles make Sense Money Wise.
Why they only in the CA AZ NM
Because those states are flat and have less hills except north California
I noticed that the EV trucks are given an extra legal allowable 2,000# grace max GVW poundage over the diesel powered max of 80,000# GVW due to the EV semi-tractor being so heavy with it's batteries to maintain trailer payload capacity. Also the energy density in any of the EV propulsion batteries, per pound will never approach the energy density of a gallon of Diesel fuel.
Also consider colder weather in Northern US states will drain more power from the batteries to maintain cabin temperature and external lighting in bad weather.
Also long haul drivers are paid by the mile and need 500-600 miles daily to make a decent living. Consider the relatively long recharging times to get the batteries charged again compared to refueling a Diesel rig that will contribute to down time that the driver is not paid for.
And where does all of this propulsion electricity come from in the USA? The EVs suck off of the teat of an already taxed and ageing American electrical grid with major prime movers like natural gas, nuclear, coal, oil, and some hydro.
The 2000lb increase is also for natural gas and hydrogen trucks, hydrogen trucks weigh more than battery trucks. The battery doesn't have to approach the energy density of diesel, just having 1/4 of its energy density will render it obsolete due to the batteries much higher efficiency at sending that energy to the wheels.
Keeping the cabin warm and running lights won't be a problem for the tesla semi truck. It's battery can run the Average home in the US for a entire month with its energy capacity, a diesel semi truck can't even idle that long lol.
The tesla semi can put 350 miles in its batterynin 30 minutes so it will fit 90% of truck routes in the US for a single driver.
Coal has ben surpassed by renewable in the US in 2022, natural gas is next, fracking and drilling in the US is heavily dependent on subsidies from the government, far more tax dollars goes into making gas cheap than going in making renewable power cheaper.
@@miguellopez3392 Right now the electrical prime mover fuel in America is 39.8 % natural Gas, 19.5 % Coal, 18.2 % nuclear, 21.5% renewables, and .9 % petroleum (.1% error). Right now natural gas is king in that it burns cleaner, it is relatively cheap, and is plentiful. www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us.php
I agree that there will be a place for the Tesla semi. But it only seems practical for local and short dedicated routes. An OTR driver needs miles to earn a decent wage. A 350-500 mile range is not going to do that.
Does this comparison is not a real comparison as we don’t know the load and speed that it was used, the only comparison should be equal route equal load, and than the result should be obviously better than advertised for Tesla
Not really a fan of the fact that one Tesla Semi requires 16 or 17 car EVs worth of batteries. It's really just a tech demo.
Isn't that the way diesel trucks are as compared to cars? Just saying.
@@cashmoneypwns Simple steel cylinders are trivial to mine and manufacture. In terms of the scalability, You can get a 20 gallon for a pickup for about $200 that holds 805 kWh before losses, and a 120 gallon for a longhaul semi for $800 that holds 4,831 kWh before losses. Compared to the cost of a diesel fuel cell, the strain on metals resources that a MWh BEV makes is enormous and unsustainable to replace our transportation. The reason is because of the poor energy density of batteries compared to diesel fuel that it dedicates so much material to one vehicle.
So nah I don't think the scalability is comparable. There needs to be completely different mining techniques, and until then, we need plug-in hybrids if we want to move towards energy independence from hydrocarbons.
How much load was Tesla with it 10000 pounds? 40000 pounds that's a question I don't know. Did you answer that. You also stayed 50 miles or plus on the highway. What trucks go 55 on the highway? Everyone's doing 75 to 80 on the highway. If not, you're gonna get run over. Why is tesla only produced about fifty trucks when they said they'd have about fifty thousand by now
100% isn’t necessarily 100%. There can be a buffer.
If the goal is to convert all trucks to EV's where is all the lithium coming from and the electricity to charge all these trucks. Charginging a fleet al at once would need massive upgrades to the gtid
The grid is massively upgrading. No worries.
@@truhartwood3170 EV semi's is still a stupid idea Time is money to truckers and they don't get paid to charge their batteries
@@richardbambenek2601 how long does it take to charge the Tesla semi again? Remind me.
@@richardbambenek2601 no, they get paid to sit their on their asses for a lot of hours each day, and guess what, as hinted, this is not going to continue for much longer, automation is going to half the cost of road transport in the very near future by removing the expensive and extremely limiting human driver from the equation..... You might not like it, but this is where we are going!
@@maxtorque2277 Are you talking about detention pay? That's delays in loading and unloading cargo. If they DO get paid while charging that will be reflected in the price we pay for goods.
Makes you wonder, why is PepsiCo only using 3 of the 35 Tesla Semi's they bought?
They only entered three in the Run On Less event. Not only are they using all of them, they just took delivery of 50 more.
You should only use 60% of a battery's charge. Works wonders for the range. Just waste hours every day recharging. 🤣
I thought all the trucks were running the same routes?
No, PepsiCo has 21 Tesla Semis running a variety of routes with different loads.
This was more of a demonstration of how the latest trucks preform for various companies. Not a standardized test. It was not limited to electric or Tesla.
All the reports that I have seen are from PepsiCo's fleet of Tesla Semi's, despite the other companies and other trucks participating. Every participating company operates their own trucks on their own route... which are all different.
@@brianb-p6586 Because the Tesla Semi is the most controversial truck in the event.
@danharold3087 sure... or just the one with the most fanatic disciples.
The strange thing is that the reports I'm seeing are not coming from Teslarati, but from what is supposed to be a legitimate EV news source - InsideEVs. I don't know if InsideEVs is selecting only the PepsiCo/Tesla data, or that's all that is being given to them.
I always wondered why the battery packs aren't mounted on the trailers themselves. Running out of battery? Leave it charging and pick up another trailer. Who cares about supercharging them?
traction!
The drive axles are currently on the Tractor unit, so this unit needs enough mass to be able to generate enough tractive effort to accelerate (and deccelerate) the entire rig. The batteries are heavy, so putting them on the tractor unit is a no-brainer. It also allows the existing std trailer fleet to be used without any mods etc
For every semi tractor in the US there are about 10 trailers. Typical usage is to haul a trailer to a destination, park it there, and pick up another trailer for the next leg.
czcams.com/video/SAFE2W-gL4k/video.html an update on what the Tesla truck can do.
Those are first version, prototype trucks from Tesla. I assume the end product will be better. Not to mention the self driving capabilities! Do your research, invest in Tesla
they are emtey on return trip
lol….. how much for an electric EV? And is it worth it ROI
Yes. That's pretty much Tesla's entire pitch - electric semis cost way less to operate.
@@truhartwood3170 problem is the maths do not workout. 1/6 of the carry/load capacity. Reduced range in cold or hot extremes. Cost to buy horrific. Than down time when charging as charging points for those lorries are low in number. Thank you, but no thank you.
@@latitudeash oh for sure, if anything you said was true then they totally wouldn't make sense. Fortunately, none of what you said is true.
@@truhartwood3170 - That's good then. Can I suggest you go out and buy 10 of them, you will be making money hand over foot? It's all a vapour product. You can't even order one now. Total prototype fakery. BUT luckily I am wrong and you can make lots of money, as Elon said you would be mad not to buy it as it is sooooooo much better than dinosaur juice.
It's been mentioned, but... CARGO! The only thing that's important here is how much it can get from A to B, and at what fuel cost. Range is a factor for personal vehicles because we hate to refuel... I guess... But for a trucking company the range is only important for how long it will take to refuel and that may not even be a thing if the truck has to wait for the trailer to be unloaded and re-loaded at the destination.
So basically, this video is not just apples and mango's, it's just you saying numbers out of context.
The cargo it can carry is the same as a diesel. The 300mi semi weighs
I find the place where they’re testing these a little suspect. California is one of the best places to run the diesel truck. As far as fuel economy goes low speed limits great weather. If they really wanted to test the range of these things, send them out to Wyoming in the dead of winter Northern BC or Alaska. I’ve always said there’s a place for electric trucks in this world, but not the BL and end all for everything. The way they’re testing them is proof that they don’t want to take them out in the real world.
I’ve seen rumors that the Tesla semis were burning thru & replacing battery packs on a regular basis. Any news about this?
More FUD from Tesla haters.
Nah not yet theyve barely been out long enough to wear a battery by THAT much
Imagine this: You buy a diesel or gas powered truck, but before you drive it away from the dealer, he tells you that you shouldn't ever fill the tank more than 80%, and you can't run it down below 10%, or the gas tank will permanently (and irreversibly) become smaller. And each time you break the 80/10 rule, your total gas tank volume will reduce by a random amount.
Would you drive away in the truck? Or would you demand a truck with a gas tank volume that will never change?
Running a tank dry will fry many fuel pumps (perhaps other components as well).
It’s not “never above 80%”.
Maybe without exaggeration you don’t have a point?
Hauling bags of air isn't trucking. 🤣
The Freightliner will have slightly better efficiency largely because it has a much smaller (lighter) battery. Considering this the Freightliner should have even better efficiency than what was demonstrated.
With less than half the range of a Tesla Semi, the Freightliner should have *much better* efficiency for the reason you state; but actual efficiency is 2.2 kWh/mile, substantially worse than the 1.7 to 1.9 kWh the Tesla Semi is demonstrating-and with much slower charging, to boot. The Tesla Semi charges at about 400 miles per hour, while the eCascadia charges at
But it doesn't because Tesla tech is a decade ahead of the competition and still moving forward.
Another person keeps Nikola out of the video.
Nikola has been on the road and hauling longer than Tesla.
They have put more miles on their trucks with very little trouble.
Do some more research.
No one seems to include the driver's experience in their assessment of Tesla's semis. How does a driver hand paperwork over to and speak with someone at a booth? How does a driver look out the window when backing or wipe clean the mirrors? How easy is it to manage a touch screen when bouncing along America's ultra smooth roads? There's very very little upside to any sort of touchscreen in a moving vehicle. It does not have any sleeping arrangements for the driver. It's strictly a day cab configuration, meaning it's not suited for trips that take multiple days. Tesla's Semi is impressive in many different ways but being practical isn't one of them. And while in Tesla's cars they move units because features over functionality is acceptable, trucks aren't status symbols first. They do, at the end of the day, have to do the job they're designed for efficiently, and things like this are clearly just "trendy" not practical. It seems Tesla's designers do not adhere to the principle "Form follows function".
The entire design was based on what's best for the driver and daily operations with tons of feedback from the drivers, using the semi for Tesla's own operations, etc. Do you really think Tesla doesn't know and take into account everything you just said?
@@truhartwood3170 From your reply, I can tell that you've never driven a semi and performed multiple pick ups and deliveries or driven one from coast to coast. I can understand someones appreciation for futuristic designs and the latest technological innovations but a little critical thinking will show they are impractical for everyday use. Form should follow function.The design of the Tesla semi is definitely not driver friendly.
@@niemi5858 There is no remotely possibly conceivable reason Tesla would design the semi around anything other than practicality. Their customers will judge it based 100% on pure practicality, nothing else. Tesla knows this. Drivers have been key consultants on every phase of development to make sure it's going to work for them. But with every design there are tradeoffs. If there's something you see that doesn't make sense for one reason, there could be five other reasons it makes way more sense to do it the way they did. I'm not sure why you think their cars have sacrificed functionality either. You do know there's a difference between "not familiar" and "not functional", right? I also find it to be the pinnacle of hubris to say "I don't get it, therefore it sucks." In any case, they'll be driverless in 5-10 years or so so being practical for the driver is only a short-term consideration.
@@truhartwood3170 Have you ever driven a semi? Have you made pick ups and deliveries in one? Have you driven a semi for an over the road operation? If you answer, I will provide a rational explanation for my outlook, otherwise there would be no point in continuing. Thank you.
@@truhartwood3170I see you didn't respond to my query about your semi driving experience. Care do do so now?
Tesla did 500+ miles at 82k gross crossing Grapevine, on a single charge. There is a video of it.
going an average speed of 52.5 mph. Not very real world
@@prof.crastinator You can keep looking for every way to hate this truck. The Tesla Semi doesn't really care. Want to see some fantastic numbers from it? Look at the Run On Less 2023 numbers, pay particular attention to Tesla Semi #3.
@@midlifetrucker-thombell4722 It seems like if it was really that great- then Tesla would release the data in whole to the public- you’d think they’d want to brag.
The semi is not going to revolutionize transport- and Doesn’t live up to the hype Elon banked on of it- that it would not only beat diesel (it doesn’t economically) but it would beat RAIL.
That is a lot of over-hype, bordering on fraud itself. But saying it would have a “convoy” function was just a lie.
I don’t need a reason to think the semi is a failure, the necessary charging infrastructure makes it a niche product already- but when you throw in the reliability issues, range limitations and reduced max weight load compared to ice- it becomes a gimmick for companies to greenwash via pr.
The economics make no sense. The fact no price, cargo carrying and real-world range data is available except from a single source that is filtered via nda’s through Tesla, is not very promising.
Couple that with only a few deliveries and it seems like Tesla knows it… But we’ll see.
I mean the hyperloop proved me wrong. And full self driving robo taxis are now ubiquitous. And then there is that colony on mars that will be established next year….
82k? So empty?
@@jerrylawson9003 Sarcasm or Ignorance?
Without knowing the weight, all these other numbers are pretty much meaningless. And just getting the power to the charging locations is a cost measured in millions. Pepsi couldn't get the amount of power needed from the utility's substation, so they had to build a powerline to another substation farther away. I'll bet they spent 50 million if the spent a penny just getting power on to the site
If you are as knowledgeable on power distribution as you indicate you missed the Tesla Megapack on site.
@@InformedKiwi Megapack only smooths out demand, it does not increase the amount of energy. They needed 3 megawatts, and it wasn't available at the poco substation. Without knowing the power factor all problems this junk causes or anything about the harmonics created by the rectification, that means at least a
3,000KVA transformer installation on site
@@joecummings1260 _harmonics created by the rectification_
I have asked but you have yet to explain where's there's any rectification in the utility provide AC power to the Tesla Megachargers and Megapacks. This repeated claim with no explanation puts your electrical knowledge seriously in doubt.
_I'll bet they spent 50 million if the spent a penny just getting power on to the site_
The four in Modesto were $334,000, plus a $5,500 permit fee. There's no reason why the four in the PepsiCo Sacramento Bottling Plant would be much different.
@@BigBen621 @Big_Ben_from_La_Mesa The rectification ts done by the Tesla supplied equipment. And the harmonics are caused by the rectification. It's just like working on a facility full of VFDs and computer power supplies. the equipment causes the problems and you have to deal with it. If you don't deal with it you distort the sine wave beyond the POCC and cause other customers problems. That is the whole point of IEEE-519 standards, to keep you from distorting the power on parts of the grid. Do you think your neighbors want dirty power caused by your equipment?
@@joecummings1260 _ that means at least a 3,000 KVA transformer installation on site_
So? Tesla has thousands of sites in the US alone with at least this capacity.
I think pepsiCo Drives halve the time empty
The other companies have already delivered thousands of electric trucks. Tesla has delivered a few dozen. That should tell you all you need to know.
I mean it makes sense tesla is building its factory for it soo ofc its gonna be slow
@@mcsike7264 They introduced it 7 years ago and said deliveries would start in 2020. There is no excuse for them to not yet have a facility to manufacture them.
@@TroySavary your fault for believing in elon time line if elon adds a time line just put 5 years ontop of it
@@TroySavary also covid was a thing
@@mcsike7264 Other car makers managed to get through Covid with only minor delays. But keep believing that a company whose sales are still dropping, despite drastic price cuts, will be dominating anything.
Cybertruck is late, and vastly under the originally promised specs. Semi is late, and also not living up to promises. They are desperately slashing workforce due to a money losing quarter. They haven't introduced a new mass market model in 4 years. And to top things off, Elon is demanding a compensation package greater than the company's total revenues over its entire history. But feel free to think Tesla is on the way to the top. I won't get in the way of your delusions.
I noticed that you’re using a BMW I3 in your picture at two minutes. But as it turns out BMW has its own built-in battery management system that will allow you to charge it to 100% without battery damage. I always charge my car to 100% My car has over 100,000 miles on it and I have yet to see any battery degradation.
Hiding %10 SOC behind software isn’t very interesting to me. Ofc bigger battery lasts longer. Phone companies also do this & it is controversial at best
The funny thing is that it's not the drive train where the Tesla Semi is the biggest failure, it's *everything else*. Want to hand documents to security through the window? Sorry, you're sitting in the middle. You want a bed so you can relax a little when you're waiting for customs? Sorry, that's the "coat hanging" area. Something wrong with your vehicle? Going to need to call an HV electrician before touching anything, mate.
The sad thing is that Tesla were the ones who made an EV that looks and functions like a regular ICE (with a few minor changes) and that's what made them accessible to a lot of people, yet when it comes to trucking "doing what all the established truck companies were doing" design wise wasn't good enough for them, and it took what could have been a pretty good truck and turned it into a failure.
Also, my car has not lost 1% of fuel capacity in the 5 years that I've owned it, I doubt it'll be the same story for these trucks...
The vast majority of trucks should go plug-in hybrid while battery tech matures, it will be easy to rebuild those into full BEVs later once there are even cheaper / safer and better batteries… they can even use cleaner burning fuels immediately; generators aren’t as picky about the type of fuel, usually being operated at a constant ideal RPM and don’t need to have things like low RPM torque and many other requirements typical of transmission driven truck engines, nor do they suffer from the same emissions problems since they are inherently burning clean at ideal efficiency which normally only happens once up to constant speeds.
Battery tech has already improved and is continuing to improve rapidly. We're already looking at mass-produced batteries with 500Wh/kg, about double that of EVs on the roads right now.
Tesla trucks are over 32000 pounds and have very low cargo limit... They only haul frito lays chips around. Light loads only..
Does not work to good on regular trucking operations...
Only limited use successfully..
Wait you didn't include is how much each of them cost
1:37 God I can't stand the marketing ploy that electric cars/trucks are "0 emissions".
Yeah, okay, so maybe YOUR charging station is powered by renewable energy. They aren't ALL though. And I'm fairly confident that the production of all the lithium batteries wasn't exactly as environmentally-friendly as you're touting.
Meanwhile, 6:56 yeah no shit autonomous trucks are proving difficult, they only just (relatively) recently started making _automatic transmissions_ for large trucks.. And the companies that are running these trucks on the road might wanna trust autonomous trucks, but what if I, a driver on the road alongside these massive things, don't feel as confident in them? Why the hell should I have to now start dealing with truck drivers who aren't actually there?
Let's, as a society, back the fuck off with the autonomous and electric shit. Maybe there's reason to start moving gradually in a direction, but I don't think that an automated, electric tractor trailer is the right solution here. Maybe let's invest in our railways better? Yano....reduce the number of trucks in the first place?
The only efficiency numbers that make sense in any way is pounds of freight moved per energy unit.
That's the only metric that is meaningful. On that basis, I'll bet that diesel beats them all.
1.7kWh/ml is equivalent to a diesel truck returning 23.5 mpg(US).
I suspect that even given the different in max payload, the EV truck is still ahead........
The Tesla are only carrying chips not liquids. So payload is minimal
Making heavier trucks to be more efficient, no thank you I will stay with diesel! Also getting the constant runaround with shippers and brokers you're not going to make your destination!
Whatever. Unless you are one of the of the 9% of truckers in the United States who are independent owner operators you aren't going to have a choice. Corporate bean counters will decide. Now shut up and get in the truck and drive! That's going to be the reality for the vast majority of truckers. 😂
This is a bigger issue than truck drivers wanting diesel. Were all choking on the fumes.
4 tonnes of batteries to do the job of half a tonne of diesel
@@calchedzthe total vehicle weights are pretty close since the electric motors and drive train are so light compared to a huge diesel engine and transmission. The 300mi Tesla semi is
Just the time spent recharging that monstrosity all day and its extremely falling asleep with so many batteries that could bust into flames while you sleep makes diesel way better and they have a electric motor ad on to trucks and trailer that will give a diesel 19mpg so electric is not the way
If you’re going to make these kind of videos for an audience, please use a Teleprompter, or move your script, because trying to pay attention to you when your eyes are glued to the right is very, very distracting
Can you imagine when not if one of these so called trucks catch fire with an 8 thousand pound battery. 😳
Using car data ICE cars catch fire more than EV cars by %.
Bad math for Tesla.... Using short runs (i.e. average a run from 14.5% to 7.9%) that predict 538 miles to inflate the average is wrong... You should either filter-out this small runs or use a median. Better yet use a weighted average for which small runs have very low weight. For those who believe in science there is real data in that cart: Every time the truck is used from ~~ 90% to 10% it runs ~ 380 miles. That's the real world range. The average from this dude wrong math is pipe dreams, never achieved IRL. Also the "assumptions" of being maxed out are WRONG. Trucks don't drive 100% of the time with 100% of the load. For a long run experiment you can assume as much as 50% average load. Really. Bad math.
Hmmm so as far as State commercial vehicle inspection agencys go How will the safety equipment be inspected on these electric Trucks? How will a cop look at the Brakes tires and so one Most state inspection agencys are run like the GESTAPO! So Will electric trucks get a break because they are politically correct?😮
Tires and brakes and everything are exactly the same as those used in diesel trucks.
When are you people going to figure out you're running on coal?
You're not saving anything🤦🏿♂️
Coal powered electricity costs way less than diesel fuel. About 1/4 to 1/3 the cost.
The edison truck will beat the tesla
Do your research, investr in Tesla
Hmmm so solar panels and windmills are going to produce enough electricity to keep all these.frieght trucks running worldwide 24 hrs a day?. sounds like time to start building a bunch of nuclear power.plants?😮😮😅😅
Nuclear better than coal or gas...
Well i would not underestimate the human being ingenuity.
@@hugogarcia5794 And recently Ive come to understand how much we all have underestimated solar with storage.
Solar and wind are cheapest and massively abundant, so yeah.