"Performance Suspension" More like "Impotence Suspension"
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- čas přidán 15. 03. 2021
- Pontiac claim this Formula Firebird has upgraded suspension... but if that is the case, I would hate to see what the stock suspension is like. I decided to throw a Wonderbar and sway bar end links with polyurethane bushings. Let's see how it performs now.
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Spotify playlist of the tunes I listen to while working on the car - open.spotify.com/playlist/4i0...
*Cameras/Mics*
Sony a73
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Sony Handycam
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Go Pro
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Zoom H1 Handy Recorder
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Rode Smart Lav+
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DJI Mavic Air (our daily drone cheaper)
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DJI Mavic 2 (Drone) the nice expensive one
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Manfrotto Befree Tripod
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Sony 24-70 f/4 lens for a73
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Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of Worthless Whips, we cannot guarantee against improper use or unauthorized modifications of this information. Worthless Whips assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. Use this information at your own risk. Worthless Whips recommends safe practices when working on vehicles and or with tools seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of Worthless Whips, no information contained in this video shall create any expressed or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage, or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or from the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not Worthless Whips. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
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Enjoying this series. Nice foreshadowing; make sure you can still count to ten on your fingers at the end of the day. Good luck, W.
Winston, the WS6 cars did handle very well when new. But even 'Performance Suspension' systems will feel like crap when tired and worn out. But also, what would be considered 'Performance Suspension' in the 1980/90s would be laughable by today's standards. Suspension technology has improved so dramatically since then that we are kind of spoiled by it today. Anyhow, great video as always man. Stay awesome!
I don't know, my c4 corvette felt like it was on rails in comparison and it's the same time-frame as these firebirds
Exactly - for their time they did handle great
Try a dealership maintained Lotus Elise, Exige R, and you
feel the difference of what is a 'performance suspension'.
This spongy american suspensions never beat one of a Lotus.
This is a great fix for these cool looking cars. So simple.
Installing a wunderbar should attract more German viewers I would hope 😉
because of the schokoriegel?^^
This is why you never invest in a car from 1971 - 2001 unless your prepared to strip it and rebuild it from the ground up... (que the six million dollar man intro.)
Just thinking about the number of vaccume lines that need to be removed and refitted makes me sick already!
Unfortunate truth!!
Working on the F Body, loving it! When I installed my "wonder bar" I also replaced not only the end links, but the main anti-roll bar mounting bracket rubbers with poly as well, really tightened things up. Looking forward to your next TA upgrades.
It’s so good to see you doing this stuff, Winston (Matt too) - I remember when y’all were still living abroad and hating it. When I turned 16 in 1983, my first car was a ‘78 Pontiac Sunbird I got for $800. It was such a POS that I have never bought an American car since. If I had been a Motörhead like you guys, maybe that whip wouldn’t have been so worthless. Love the channel!
When you do tie the bottom like that you need to do the strut Towers on the top strut Tower brace that makes a huge difference too
I had one just like this car. I highly recommend replacing the bushing with poly. The original bushing are usually deteriorated within 5 years. They tend to crack and distort.
Good idea. I've had good luck with the poly replacements when rebuilding suspensions.
Yes sir. My 82 with TRX package is great, it has 15k miles. Vs my other 82 GT with 60k miles neither has had suspension work and you can tell the differences.
All this time I'd only associated WS-6 with the later-model TA's that had that sick ram air intake hood. Never realized it was actually in reference to the suspension. Thanks for the education! I'm enjoying your progress!
Ok so you're missing a few things here. Back in the day these cars handled amazingly and still do, I can ride the bumper of a M5 in a corner with ease, but as soon as we come out of the corner he will lose me. You need new shocks and struts 30 plus year old shocks and struts just simply do not perform, try KYB adjustable they are a good performer and won't break the bank and will allow you to adjust your ride comfort cause those Eibachs are going to make your ride harsh. I can see that the front sway bar bushings are worn and you should also replace them with poly urethane bushings, use caution because you need 36mm for the WS6 front sway bar (try Top Down Solutions). You also need to pay attention the the back of the car, sway bar bushings and end links, because you lowered the car you also need to replace the pan hard bar and get the adjustable one, you only need one that adjusts on one side and also replace the stamped steel rear control arms with a tubular set. I just did all of this to my GTA....yes a refrigerator on wheels as you described it in an earlier video (I'm still bitter but I did not unsubscribe) and your car will handle better than a new M5! After all of that is done you should do a tubular torque arm and sub frame connectors and you will be AMAZED at the handling performance of your Formula. Loving your videos, but call my car a refrigerator again and I'm going to consider those fighting words...LOL (white GTA's maybe a little bit) :)
Hey at least it’s not wrong to say a refrigerator is cool! Seriously though, thanks for the advice!
Keep in mind the third generation F-Body debuted for the 1982 model year and had been in development since the mid 70s. For the time in which it was developed, that suspension system was pretty good. I had a 1967 Camaro, currently own a 73 Firebird Formula and 1993 Formula, and previously owned a 2001 Trans Am WS6. The difference between the 67 and 73 was night and day. The difference between the 73 and 93 is plainly obvious, but the difference even between the handling of my 93 Formula and my 2001 WS6 (two cars from the same generation) was even pretty drastic (stock for stock). Technology improves exponentially.
WS6 is an RPO code, it is not an abbreviation of anything.
From wiki:
The WS6 performance package option, available on the S/E and Trans Am, included 4-wheel disc brakes, P215/65R15 Goodyear Eagle GT radials with 15-inch cast aluminum wheels, stiffer springs, thicker 32 mm front & 21 mm rear sway bars, a 12.7:1 quick-ratio steering box, and limited slip rear differential.
And for later cars like yours:
WS6 was standard equipment on the Formula and GTA from 1987 to 1992, and optional on the Trans Am. WS6 from 1987 thru 1992 included 36 mm front sway bars, 24 mm rear sway bars, quick ratio steering box, gas filled struts and 16" Wheels with 245/50R16 Tires. Later WS6 cars used ZR rated tires
my friends 89 iroc had a strut tower brace and a custom sub frame connector job- you could really tell the difference. back then the cars were newer and still reasonably tight. They just understeered some, but the torque arm suspension does plant the rear harder around right turns.
Nice upgrades, on My GTA I added UMI sub frame connectors, lower control arms, and panhard bar with new poly sway bar bushings all the way around with a Wonder Bar. Those mods vastly improved the rigidity and handling.
^^ This guy knows what he's talking about^^
Certified Gold!!!!!
Damn, I thought I we were getting the new "Airwolf-style" intro!!
On March 28 at 8:07 PM CDT I saw 2 commercials before the video started. At that time the video had 945 likes and 14 dislikes. At 8:13 I saw 2 more commercials making a total of 4 commercials watched. There were no commercials after the video ended.
Hey there! Unrelated but 3 years ago today I found Winston's channel thanks to the youtube algorithm.
I believe it was the "dangers of buying a chinese smartphone" video. Didn't subscribe until May that same year along with finding C-Milk's channel.
Stay awesome guys! Thanks for the wonderful videos that I keep looking out for
So cool to see you here!
you probably have this on your list allready but i,d check out the calipers for stuck slide pins and pistons , getting a rebuild kit is only 10 bucks and really makes sure new pads and rotors last.
anyway stay awesome dude!
Just what I was looking for. Excellent!
Beautiful looking parts. Hope they are as good as they look.
I'm sure it's too late, but I'd steer clear of drilled rotors, even slotted, for a road car. Drilled rotors were originally designed to relieve pressure from outgassing of older brake pads, whereas newer materials don't have the same issue. What you want is a large, flat, rotor with as much surface area as possible to maximize your pads contact patch.
The only application I use slotted rotors for was our 24-hr Endurance racer, which used high-temp Porterfield R4-E brake pads. The Porterfield rep I spoke to said the slots wouldn't hurt the brakes performance at high loads, but would help get dust away from the pad when the pad temperatures were too low, helping me get the brakes back up to operating temp after a pit stop or yellow flag.
The out-gassing comment is interesting; I hadn't heard of that problem.
I had massive brake fade due to the pits and rust I'm guessing but the brakes were overheating badly and that was why I went for drilled and slotted rotors
@@serpentza Overheating was probably just poor quality pads, which can overheat and fade, although older rotor designs did have poor cooling vanes which offered limited airflow. These vanes basically act like a centrifugal air pump, and they may not be omnidirectional, so make sure they are oriented correctly.
On our race setups, we actually cut holes in the brake rotor shields and ran ductwork from the front bumper to each of the front rotors, made a huge difference.
What it translates as, is that GM spent more money on the advertising, than they did on the engineering and manufacture of the suspension.
All flash and no substance.
@@remyllebeau77 It was a shame, really. Detroit had a good hand on styling, but the cynical nature of upper management was to maximize profit over quality; as if people wouldn't notice in time. It reminds me of their attitude towards smaller, foreign builds. Americans will never settle for small cars and they will never rev their engines above 3,500 rpm. That, and "J" cars; don't get me started on those.
At the time when those generations of Fire birds and Camaros ran circles around the mustang on a race track so the suspension was good for there time but gm is not the only company that did the same thing bigger is better Ford did it too for their 2015 mustang GT with a track pack handled like garbage compared to the 2015 Camaro ss1le
@@williamswenson5315 Also remember Gm's performances thought very differently back then the corvette was meant to be Gm main performance vehicle so management did not want Firebird and Camaros to perform better then the Corvette since it would eat into the sales haven a sports car that is cheaper and faster then the main Halo car the vet was bad for business compared to now the Camaro and Vet teams compete to see who can makes a better car
So business as usual?
OMG, the dreaded Idaho, Ohio, Iowa, Indiana confusion rears it's ugly head.
Please don't confuse my state with those other states.
@@robm5581 Never! I'm from Idaho and am aware of all these states. A newspaper guy from Idaho once write a whole book about Idaho/Iowa confusion and even mentioned Indiana and Ohio.
University of Iowa, founded in Idaho City, Ohio
Das ist eine wunderbare.
Hey! Small world! That's the lake in my hometown at the end. Firebird is looking super slick Winston!
Have the sportline springs and the wonder bar as well great upgrades. You should add sun frame connectors as well! Have my 86 firebird handling like a go cart!
My mom had a Toyota Corolla. It was excellent.
I had one for ten years and drove it 150K miles. Great little car and came with a 5-speed transmission.
Nice. I had an 88 Firebird. Came with a 2.8. Swapped in a carbed 305, which I lasted many years until I decided to put in a 400 small block from a blazer. Kept my stock 305 heads, but drilled in the sweat ports. Fast in a straight line not in the corners. Changed all tie rods, ball joints and barely made a difference. Until I invested in polyurethane control arm bushings. You should consider them, but remember to torque bolts when the car is on the ground to prevent binding.
Always like to see Firebird updates. My favorite in your stable (after c4 left).
Winston Thank You For The Great Video.
Cool vid as always. The wonderbar is the next mod on my Bird coincidentally.
I have a 88 gta trans am Pontiac firebird tpi and t5
And you need the brake prop valve spring
My car nosed dived and now it doesn't
I got the wonder bar to
Big diff
And I got a big brake upgrade kit ls1 trans am
Dual piston calipers alum and cross drilled slotted rotors and nine pads
That makes my car stop insanely better
But you need the spring
I had a 86 T/A and it handle very well.
that car looks cool !
Winston bought a wonder bra? About time. Anyway a quick fix on the car, stop the twisting and stress on the frame.
Don’t tell me you can make these handle well, I already want a black one 😎 love the 80s promo footage of the woman slamming it into third gear.
Love the intro! 😂
I put a wander bar on my firebird. It didn’t do anything noticeable for handling. The best thing for handling was polyurethane bushings and rear tubular control arms. The brakes suck on third gens, because the proportioning valve is bias to the front. There is a hack to put a different spring in it and it is supposed to make the rear brakes work much better. I haven’t tried it yet.
Working on cars is a great workout. C-Milk and Winston must be ape strong.
I just got my new lower links and panhard bar for my 91 T/A Im trying to get it stiffer there a little bouncing when you get around people on the highway kind of wants to return bounce Id would do lowering springs but it on 18's did find a duel exhaust pipe kit to really think about it to. your going to have a nice one Winston
Quite frankly, all my TA's have handled superbly, & on par with modern ultra performance cars, especially after freshening them up. So your Formula must be pretty tired. If the car spent 2 years in Ohio, that's the equivalent of like 10 years in the salt mines under the Great Lakes. My 1981 'Bird also has the UMI equivalent of a Wonderbar, as well as heim-jointed, fatter sway bars, poly bushings, solid motor mounts, Koni shocks, upgraded steering, new suspension components, solid body bushings, subframe connectors & P325 rubber (plus other minor upgrades). I have not even come close to exhausting all the (mostly minor) improvements that it's possible to make on my 2nd gen F-body. Wheels & tires are next.
My 78 will get the same treatment for sure!
Absolutely based.
Based and uncucked.
I'm sub, I have the bell 🔔 on, but this was not suggested to me!!! CZcams WTF.
Hey man I love the formula and all, actually enough to where you've convinced me to get a red one of my own. But just out of curiosity. Where's the bandit car man. It's been a hot minute. Is she doing good in the body shop?
Just got the doors aligned, still not enough progress to make an update but soon!
@@serpentza awesome thanks man. Keep up the amazing content please. 😁😁
Way cool
Some new bilsteins and you’re good
What's very strange is the wonder bar was only installed on late model IROC-Z Camaros, and never on upscale Firebirds.
WS6 doesn't mean anything, it's just an RPO, or option code, for a supension package. In some years you had WS6 without rear discs, and it gave the WS7 package. You also had WY6 and WY7 if you removed the limited slip. Like WS4 means Trans Am and W66 mean Formula.
Same Wonder Bar as I got, same disks as well, I also got 4 pistons Wilwood Calipers for the front to go with the new disks. Just a shame I can't actually work on the car for now...
You will soon mate
Ohio is also a salt state. Salt is mined under the great lakes and is used far to much.
You can maintain a mostly rust-free car in places with winter salted roads, but you must be diligent with regular under-body cleaning, and that costs money, time and effort to do it; and even then it is difficult to get cleaning water into all the nooks and crannies rust can form
When sanding the discs, it helps to put it in gear with the whole front jacked up. The rotating discs do much of the work for you and results in a more consistent finish.
That only works for the discs that are least important. The front discs are the ones you care about, especially on older cars like these.
@@xenonram Sorry. Do it on the drive axle. It might be front or back.
Edit: Here in the snow belt, most all cars are front wheel drive.
Sensei Kreese approves of your lack of mercy.
WS6 doesn’t stand for “Wide Stance”. Hell, it doesn’t stand for anything - it was just an RPO code for better suspension just like the FE3 or Z51 packages. Z28 came about the same way.
FYI your WS6 features a faster steering rack, larger front and rear sway bars, an LSD, not standard I think, all around disc brakes, some firebirds had disc and drums, and bigger 16 inch rims and tires with unique to that spec'ing tires to help curb bodyroll in handling
and I know that as literally theirs a 1985 firebird trans am spec video in my suggestions lol so basically its the trans am package without the trans am decals and the Higher Output motor.
and I wouldnt really knock Pontiac for the WS6 Package too badly, the car is over 30 years old and it lived in florida, chances are all the bushings died years ago between the moisture and the heat, and a good thing to do going forward would be to put the thing up on the lift and just yank on everything to make sure its tight and in place, as per what leno has said of the subject
as alot of times things have come off and not been put back on properly, and then look into some extra bracing, as the firebirds an Unibody, the body IS the structure, and I bet the thing would really benefit from a Monte Carlo Bar under the hood, and maybe some traction bars to help keep the axel in place better
and that's kinda funny, that is exactly what the wonderbar does, hell i wonder if that's what the towframe on the knight rider cars accidentally did really, as I've been watching the knight rider historians and the stuff they cover on these things, and judging by where the wonderbar is, that is right where the tow rig was attached to the car
like no wonder they left it on between shots, wonder if that works on the rockford files era ones too.
My 74' XB Falcon coupe was WILD in a straight line,,,,,,,,,thank the GODS Australia never invented corners.
👏👏👏
I also changed my front struts to kyb agx 4 way adudtsble fronts
And I'm doing the rear this spring there not cheap
And I cut a coil from my springs to lower it 1inch
I think I'm gonna do the sway bar bushings
Serpentza have you ever thought of replacing all of the Bushings on the entire suspension? You could go to Tijuana and maybe have em lift the frame and install em that would be a cool video adventure.
Would the car then leap into the air, bounce up and down and flash Xmas lights from the rear axle?
@@williamswenson5315 Low Rider it all out? Nope, Serpentza should replace the bushings & keep it stock.
@@podcastfan2544 Just teasing. I agree with you actually, although I would not be opposed to improvements in what was not a great design to begin with. That suspension needs to keep the wheels on the pavement and an increase in stiffness in the front and rear would not go amiss either.
Just imagine how badly a regular F-bird handles.
You must make it handle its scandal.
🔥👍🔥
After putting rotor on fill rotor cavity with grease, at least half way, as wheel spins and warms, it will spread to keep bearings always in grease. There will always be newbies needing mechanical advice, hope u put pucks in worthy of expense for the rotors
So weird that Pontiac advertised that the car had a performance suspension, like wouldn’t the owner know ? Just like on the 97-03 Grand Prix wheels had abs stamped right onto them just in case you forgot
I have a 1988 Trans Am GTA 66k miles with the WS6 suspension. Just bought a 91 Camaro RS with 28k miles. Both all original. I'm watching this and wondering if I just doubled my pleasure or quadrupled my pain.
I think you have to look at it in context of the time. Also, what’s the condition of the original suspension?
Exactly.
@@theotherwayofstopping4717 yes sir. My (I'm a Ford guy but love firebirds) 82 GT with 15k miles vs the identical (literally down to options. Did it so I can drive one...) with 60k miles with nothing replaced (yet, am planning on doing it soon), the 15k mile car is night and day difference. The 60k mile car is getting more suspension upgrades along with a set of heads. Should help the fun factor
Damn Winston, had no clue you had this channel. What else you hiding my guy?
Honest question. If you could go back in time and buy a 3rd gen again, would you hold out for a TPI car?
No, because then I wouldn't have been able to make the cowl hood functional: czcams.com/video/7N3JItYLjZY/video.html
what kind of suspension would a drift car have ? I actually like a stiffer japanese rack and pinion steering system than the old style american powered steering system .
Ohidaho
Get a wonder bar and some weld in subframe connectors along with Koni adjustable shocks. Trust me it will completely change the car. That and poly bushings.
I commented this prior to watching the video lol. You're heading in the proper direction.
@@FWDSUXARSE Thanks mate, that's all very good advice and I'm going to do all of that minus the koni's for now (that'll happen eventually but I have that 1978 2nd Gen to do as well so I'm splitting my resources)
@@serpentza I completely understand that. Right now I'm down to just my 98 Trans Am (not a WS6 but it's better than one based on what I've done with it) I'd recommend a rear end cover that puts a preload on the bearings (our rear ends are junk trust me). Check out Hawks for that. Check out Founders Performance for a panhard bar along with a strut tower brace. Very affordable and good quality. I just installed weld in subframe connectors on my 4th Gen from Founders and they tuck up against the subframe really nicely and my car hooks up without any wheel hop now. The Koni shocks made a huge difference so when you get to that point, it's well worth it. I'm only pushing about 350 rear wheel HP on my car at this point, but the subframe connectors along with the other suspension mods have made a huge difference. Doesn't even feel like the same car from when I first bought it (not in a bad way). If you ever need any advice on the 3rd gen Fbody, please feel free to contact me. Between my brother and I, we've owned a dozen 3rd and 4th Gen cars, both stock and modified V8 models. Plus from the looks of it there's plenty of other folks who follow your channel who have sound advice as well.
You were injured! Don’t worry, your wife is a Doctor!
lol
it's missing a red scanner bar in the front... K2000 style ;-)
His boyhood dream car. Who knows?
@03:10 This is a now a lost art. Packing wheel bearings is not a thing anymore, and hasn't been a thing for the last 20 model years of cars.
Anyone wondering what happened to that Gyro?
Still kicking around
@@WorthlessWhips Keep it up! Big fan from South Korea!
It was a great suspension package back when it was new. Right up there with the Corvette, which compared to modern cars is crap. The generation before your Firebird had the RTS package. That's Radial Tuned Suspension because radial tires were new on the market. So yours would be even better. Don't knock it. Comparing old to new is comparing apples to oranges.
I have a 1978 Trans Am as well with the RTS and yes, same sort of thing probably good in the day but a joke by modern standards and that is why I want to update these awesomely cool cars to modern standards so that they can be enjoyed as they're supposed to be
Winston if you replace the end links with a whole kit might I suggest using a grinder....
Grrrrrrrnddd thru the middle n pull bits out - less stress n mucking about.
Hell I cringed when you took a palm SANDER to the brake rotors! Many years of accurate on car brake disc machining (mobile) tells me that’s just plain SHIT lol
Yep, I wasn’t pretending it was good
@@WorthlessWhips true that
8 minutes video? What the fuck am I suppose to do with all this popcorn now...
Next one is like 50mins long
@@serpentza
You guys spoil us ❤️
If you think third gens handle that badly, what on Earth do you make of the second gen with its ~500lbs of extra mass and rear suspension from a Cambodian oxcart?
Oh don't worry I have some massive upgrades to do on my 1978 Trans Am when it's out of the body shop
Such cars where made to drive with 50 mph straight ahead.
Tiny brakes etc. That is why the u.s. car manuf. broke down.
Winston I'd and I'm sure everyone would like to know what is it that you do in your real life profession? We really appreciate your videos they're extremely entertaining and educational but one has to wonder how is a person is afforded this kind of time? Stock market, win the lotto, old money? Please forgive me but it is very curious that people somehow miraculously find abundance of time to do this sort of thing with such frequency. We know you're originally from South Africa?? maybe your a relative of Elon Musk? "Inquiring minds want to know" 😁... Just for the record my 89 formula equipped with the same WS6 performance package with 46000 original miles currently on the odometer handles like a cat on Rails no problem handling it's one of the best handling stock vehicles I've ever driven. Maybe you had to change your components because your vehicle had over a hundred and twenty thousand miles on it and the components were just worn out. Nothing lasts forever. Anyhow great video as usual thank you for the tips and sharing cheers! 🍻
EVERYBODY confuses Idaho with Ohio. Everybody likes tighter . . . .;)
He's from South Africa via mainland China. Give him a bit of time and the states will make a lot more sense to him. Particularly if he sees them from the seat of a motorcycle.
My wife said I had the same problem
You sold us out Todd!
@@ahmedp800 Right? Blue pill time for you, Todd.
@@williamswenson5315 It was all sweet little lies sadly.
@@ahmedp800 So much of that in the world. Sigh.
Do you know how to weld?
Yes but not very well
@@serpentza Can you do a video on welding stuff like motorcycles and cars then?
@@beniamino939 best way to become proficient is to teach the subject.
@@williamswenson5315 I can weld. But I'm curious what his take of fabricating with a welder would be.
@@beniamino939 See if you can contact him via this channel or on Serpentza. I'd break it down into gas, stick, MIG or TIG. I suspect he's done a bit of gas welding, but doesn't feel comfortable doing it from lack of practice. Still, a small oxyacetylene rig can do quite a bit of useful repair around the shop. I just repaired a catalytic convertor for one of my vehicles and saved $900 by not paying for a new one. Good luck with your quest.
comment
reply
@@thegrimyeaper good one
i do it to feed the algorithm.
Another CZcamsr talking out of his ass for dramatic effect. The WS6 package was a serious upgrade. The cars that had that package were completely different than an average 3rd, not even comparable.
Which is really sad when you think about it... Imagine just how awful the bone stock firebird must have handled
I remeber watching knight rider and I recall I asking my mom why that car rattle so mutch in the background.She saids it's American made.
Wide
Suspension
6 pieces
Only 8 m 😒😒
The first taste is nearly always free...
@@williamswenson5315 you should know
13 pieces electric HEMP car...simples...
Stay dirty also
Too short video! Not cool.
As long as you have bought your wife a Toyota minivan, do whatever you like. I'd like to say I miss my Chevy Monza with the small block V8, but I really don't. It was a waste; I should have taken the 1982 Toyota.
Bro, you can't stop China. Ecosystems do matter. A tough ecosystem will be a concern for China, but a weak, brittle, compromised ecosystem will be favoring China. There are only certain countries which have or is taking a hard stance on China. But China fears a hard stance by other countries, which indicates that it is weak and seeks support from a politically compromised Western countries......
TF are you talking about?
What does this have to do with performance suspension on a firebird?
Pratik, are you leaving ADV China comments on the Worthless Whips channel?
Three words are just enough for comments like this: "I Love Tiananmen"
@@jockeyjeon9532 or independent Taiwan.
There were no real performance USA autos after 1971 to 1995 or later