Next time do your homework . Talk to at least one or two who are truly knowledgeable about the churches of Christ. Destroy your straw man argument which no member I have ever known believes. If this had been a debate you would have been eaten alive. I COC hold a well defined pyramid chain of command which every member knows their position. They have a single head of the whole group advised by a board composed of regional church leaders. None position is chosen by the people. They broke away from the COC 30 years ago and started using instrument as a sign of having completely broken away. If those two hits represented your. knowledge of the church and worst still your knowledge of the Scriptures you would have been eaten alive in debate. Please represent those who disagree with you honestly..
The more I listen you yall, the more yall prove you all are not well educated in Scripture. John 3:5 and the thief on the cross you mentioned, the thief KNEW of the Kingdom, thats why he said to Christ "remember me when come into your Kingdom " John preached the Kingdom AND baptized people. So it is totally plausible for the thief to have been baptized by John, and therefore be forgiven in that fashion. Relating back to John 3:5. This is ridiculous how yall don't even know or think these simple things through. Ask yourself, how did the thief actually know about the kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God ? He was repentant because John preached repentance, so it's evidence against your position.
Church of Christ believes that the Bible is the whole revelation of God and it doesn't need alterations or additional books, ( we use KJV mostly but all Churches of Christ are independent ) Just as any protestant church. To say that Church of Christ is a Cult just because of some difference in interpretation is so disappointing. May we find unity as Christians in Jesus
HERE IS A QUESTION.... IS CULTISH BRING PEOPLE TO KNOW GOD IS REAL AND JESUS IS THE MESSIAH, AKA THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD? its being funded by liberal plagerist of the abandoning truth inorder to find comfort of social wins for tic tok and discrediting the bible. GUESS WHAT... there is a wide road that is capturig alot of cultish watchers and people who love to feel good and believe the guy in the middle watching this video. LIKE the guy in the middle as long as you just hear good stuff and feel good about what you see your ok even when its homosexuality and all sorts of hate against straights and flagreantly apeasing how you are a good person and need to ask for things like a zombie. SECULARIZED churches want you to joel olesten everything and feel like you get rich by selfishness and pride. Like cultish they want you to go away from the church of Christ and trade Jesus chruch for church of feel good.
I am not in the 'Church of Christ' denominations but upon quick review, some of the elements you call out are COMMON things in the bible that give folks pause to consider due to wording and context and then find a need to research more about through their own journey with God through the bible. It is all of our jobs, individually to 'rightly handle the word of truth' and work out our own salvation with 'fear and trembling.' Two out of the three podcasts I've listened to you have been throwing shade at anything but 'your' brand ™ of Christianity. Christianity is not a brand. Focusing on tiny nuances of belief to attempt to amputate whole fists and calves and toes of Jesus' church is not productive. Fast forward almost 2000 years and we are all split apart, trolling facebook and social media for ways to 'catch' people in 'bad' theology. Also all your branding (for example on your twitter page, your advertisement shows people like Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Koresh and (L. Ron Hubbard?).....those are cults. Cult is a psychological and sociological term. Christian denominations who have slight to major differences in theology (than yourself) are not 'cults' and to put them in the same bucket is disingenuous and harmful. Also your ongoing statement of 'people that believe the bible as the sole source of truth' discount history is totally false. All sorts of folks that believe the bible is the main source of truth (who don't ascribe to a human creed or confession to priests) look into church history, read works by historical Christians etc. How about let's read the bible, love God, serve others and be a shining example to the world and peaceful and brotherly to each other? Minimally, invite someone from the denomination on to teach people the differences in interpretation and dive into the bible to see if a conclusion can be made. And actually, after looking more into that church to support this post...this sounds like a church I would visit. Non-centralized.....focus on the bible as the common factor....the main differences (if this summary website is true) is the 'steps to salvation' and their level of 'necessary and sufficientness' although I'm sure there is variation across churches: 1. One must be properly taught, and hear (Romans 10:14-17);. well yes, the bible speaks in Gal 1:6-8 of folks following after a different gospel. An example would be someone hearing the mormon gospel or the JW gospel. How could you disagree that you need to hear the right gospel? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (AGREE) 2. One must believe or have faith (Hebrews 11:6, Mark 16:16); (AGREE) 3. One must repent, which means turning from one's former lifestyle and choosing God's ways (Acts 17:30); AGREE that it's evidence of salvation (not the cause of salvation)-it's a lifetime of repentance and turning away from sin because that's what the Holy Spirit does to you after you are born again, DON"T AGREE that unrepented sin causes you to lose your salvation like the catholics. Repentance is not a checkbox you have to do with a priest at the last minute before you die. It's more of 'evidence' and 'a process' and 'a lifestyle.' Thank God for repentance and the Holy Spirit that works to save me from this sin and flesh which so easily entangles and harms me. 4. One must confess belief that Jesus is the son of God (Acts 8:36-37); (AGREE THAT IT'S EVIDENCE OF SALVATION TO VERBALLY CONFESS, but not necessary/sufficient for salvation to verbally confess this on point 100%, aka Peter denied Christ 3X, even the devil can quote the bible and knows that Jesus is the son of God). What a curse to deny Christ though....I pray none of us face martyrship and this fear. AGREE that you would have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God (per point 1, 'same gospel we taught to you').....Muslims believe that Jesus exists, is holy, is annointed, but don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God. They believe he is a prophet....that's not enough for salvation. 5. One must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38); (UNSURE if you need a ceremonial baptism, Jesus said you must be born of water and of the Spirit, but I don't read this as you must have a baptism ceremony. But this is an example where folks may read things differently. I was baptized as an adult, if my neighbor never did, that feels ridiculous that they would go to hell all else being equal (and God is not ridiculous). I would study it more if I was concerned for myself or others. 6. One must live faithfully as a Christian (1 Peter 2:9). (AGREE as evidence....your acts and behavior are evidence, not the cause of salvation. Your salvation is from God, we didn't do anything to deserve it) If it's true that they don't believe there is salvation outside of their brand ™ of church than I wouldn't visit. I don't see anything in their doctrine that mentions 'grace' (undeserved favor) so that's a big miss....but educate instead of calling them a 'cult.' The baby question is also something that isn't super clear (to me) in the bible. I agree that all humans have original sin no matter how old you are. I don't agree that baptism 'saves' a baby if they are about to die (although why not just do it?). I don't believe that a baby goes to hell if they haven't been old enough to have faith. God is just. If something sounds unjust to us, then how much more can we be assured that God has a supremely just plan. For example Jesus went to the place of the dead to preach to those who haven't heard the gospel before he came (1Peter 3:18-20) so there is some kind of due process after death for those who have never been old enough to understand.
I got re-baptized, because my first baptism was into the Church of Christ. I probably didn’t really need to be be baptized again, I just felt like my baptism into the CoC was persuaded and not from the heart.
@@stephaniepierson9782you know where your heart was, and so does Jesus. I don’t think it’s necessary, it was just something I felt like I wanted to do.
I've seen several comments referring to the "Church of Christ" requiring of members using only the KJV translation. I currently attend a COC and have never been told to use a certain translation. In fact personal Bible study is very much encouraged in the COC.
I have a kjv Bible they didn't like it's called the companion Bible it's a real good Bible but I don't care what the coc thinks about that I'm hoping the LORD will lead me to a non denominational church that's not coc
@@harolddavis1493 I hope you find what you're looking for. I use the NASB and the Legacy Standard Bible as those are believed by many scholars and critics to be closest to the original documents although learning Koine is always going to be the best option.
These guys have no idea what the CHURCH of CHRIST believes,For one,,The COC a is not a denominational church. Christ is the head of the church,,and Christ only set up one church,,His church,,So a non denominational church has Christ as it head,,And then there are elders that over see the church as to make sure that it is following God’s word,, If you go to a Church of Christ that is not following the word of God,, then that isn’t a true Church of Christ. They only go by what the Bible says, As far as “ restoration” I don’t know about that,,There has been no new teachings ,,no new revaluations and no hidden truths brought forward . If these guys are talking about the Mormons,, or United Church of Christ ,, then they should make that clear,,Because if they don’t then they are calling a church that follows the word of God as close as humanly possible a cult.
This is all very interesting. I’ve Been COC nondenominational my entire life in a small town outside of Nashville (31 years) and the baptism part in my church is when a person is ready to be saved or ready to come to Jesus and become a Christian then they confess that Jesus is the Son of God and I personally asked for forgiveness in my heart and then I was baptized and I was baptized in the church but we’ve had several members baptized in creeks and in pools, etc. The being perfect part I have never heard of, I have always been taught by the church that we are all imperfect, and that we are all sinners. Also heard many preachers preach that salvation is not based on works but on Faith. We also believe that you are accountable and responsible for your sins alone, no body else’s and we do believe that even after baptism you need to try to not to repeat the same sins over and over and over again but if you do mess up and fall short then you just simply ask for forgiveness and try to do better. God doesn’t give up on us. Basically just have faith and do your best to be a good Christian and follow Gods word. Most kids in our congregation are baptized at a young age, (8-18 year olds) whenever they are ready to come to Jesus. Some as young as 7. We also have a lot of older people that are baptized whenever they are ready.
I was deeply entrenched in the CoC for over 30+years, until the Lord truly saved me. When I was younger, I would've probably written the exact same thing that you have.
@noahcutshaw I know that I’ve been taught my entire life to do my very best, and to also know that I will fall short almost daily, but that’s why there is faith and to trust in God.
@@chelscidpfighter5980 I’m not sure if that answered the question. Was that a yes? The ungodly person who believes and does not have works is given the righteousness of Jesus by faith (Romans 4:6)
I'm not sure this is really talking about mainline churches of Christ. And if it is, maybe it's geographically specific? Some in my family have attended churches of Christ for generations on at least 4 continents, and this podcast isn't representative of _anything_ I've experienced with the church. (Expect the two times I ended up visiting an non-cooperational* church by accident.) * I know them as "anti-churches," and they prefer "anti-institutional" (which erroneously suggests other coCs are pro-institutional), so I used this older term that's also not offensive to identify them.
@@jacksyoutubechannel4045 I'm a member of the Church of Christ. Honestly, the people in the video trying to explain their thoughts on Baptism had me confused. They were saying "you don't have to be baptized to be saved, but you better do what Christ says to do, and he says to get Baptized". That makes zero sense to me. It also makes zero sense to me that it seems as though the guys in the video don't seem to believe that once you are saved you can't loose salvation. So they are saying I could be saved then at some point in the future go on a rape and murder spree, and wouldn't loose my salvation because of it (if I didn't repent)? I've been in several Churches of Christ, and I've never once see anybody "shunned" because they fell away. I have several friends that no longer associate with the Church of Christ, I still see and talk to them regularly, and other members do also. I think it's actually often the case that the one that leaves shuns the the Church of Christ members.
Wonderful conversation. I was UPC, Reformed Baptist, and accompanied my wife to the church of christ for 5 years. She grew up in the church of christ. This topic is very dear to myself.
Very informative! I grew up with my dad's family being church of Christ (although my dad wasn't active, unlike the rest of his family), and my mother's side southern Baptist. We had to go to both churches, and it was very confusing for a kid. My dad's family were, and still are, extremely judgemental. I remember as a kid one day, at my dad's mother's house (devout church of Christ follower) was sad. I asked her why she was sad, and she said that she hated that I was going to go to hell. I loved her so much, and it scared me. I'm non denominational, and love Jesus Christ Almighty with all my heart. This occurred years ago, and I'm still not close to my dad's family. It's so sad. I pray for them. Thank you for your channel! God bless y'all!❤🙏
Whatever else we learned through this video, this guy in the middle is really sharp in the scripture! I pray that he carries on & uses it for the kingdom of God!
Whatever else you learn in this video, you learn the guy in the middle cannot articulate. He uses a passage such as Abraham pleading with God for 10 righteous souls to save Sodom to show there is no one righteous. He fails to mention God saved “just Lot” and his two daughters. If Lot had converted just his family Abraham would have found his 10 and Sodom would have been spared.
I think it would be a much more productive conversation, had there been someone from the Church of Christ to discuss this, because there were many presumptions made about the beliefs of the Church of Christ that from my experience come from hearing others talk and not understanding it truly. also if a coC person has been there, I believe they would have pointed out a few parts that you guys left out. this is a fun podcast tho good job
Honestly these guys explained the Church of Christ very well. I went to church three times a week for the first twenty years of my life. They are do- ing their best, they’re terrified of God..
I was involved with and even an elder at a Stone Campbell Christian church for many years. They taught (and regrettably I did too) everything that Trey talked about. It was an independent Bible study that I took part in that made to question the standard CoC teaching on baptism and perseverance of the saints. Trey is spot on with everything and I appreciate his work on this.
I was raised CoC. Alot of this doesn't fit with what I was taught. I think there's probably alot of variation between individual congregations in terms of how they interpret things. (which, obviously, contradicts their claim to be sola scriptura. --really no one can be)
This is such a denominational conversation. The way they talk about the church is as if people are in leadership meeting together and deciding what is tall and each congregation and that is not at all the way it is each church is autonomous having its own elders and deacons, and if they teach and practice the same things, it’s because they’re studying from the same book.
@@Journey_of_Abundance it never went anywhere. It was still going strong. But certainly not in false divisions like the Presbyterians or Roman Catholics.
@@Journey_of_Abundance I don’t believe that just because you call yourself the church of Christ that you’re the true church either. And I also don’t think everyone that calls themselves a member will go to Heaven. Jesus said the tares would grow among the wheat. But the fact of the matter is the “Church of Christ” universal the Body of Christ is the Church Jesus built and the the church Paul speaks of when he says that the “churches of Christ” salute you.
@@chadh.5004 If your interpretation of Romans 16:16 is correct, then where did the "churches of Christ" go directly after Paul's time? The people that heard Paul preach have very different beliefs than you and the coc denomination. There's nothing factual about the church of Christ American protestant denomination being the true body of Christ
I’m about half way through this, and I promise I will finish it. But man, this is bad. Someone must have wrung your bell. This is clumsy and not put together well. If your claim to the church if Christ being cultish on the basis of he was mentored by Phil Robertson… cmon. I am all for things being investigated. Test all things. This guy does not give an honest representation of bible teaching. If you want to refute someone, you have to accurately articulate their beliefs and this video does not do it at all!
Actually, the CoC is much worse than most people realize. Eerily akin to Romanism, the CoC not only injects mysticism into baptism, it promotes it as a requirement for salvation that turns the one who administers the “requirement” into a human mediator, which is blasphemy! There is only one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5). Only He can administer what’s necessary for us to be saved, for He has obtained our redemption and all of the spiritual blessings that accompany salvation (faith, repentance, obedience, love for God and others, etc.).
they cannot accurately refute what CoC teach. because they would condemn their beliefs. Did you notice when Acts 2.38 was read they ignored "be baptized For Forgiveness of sins" they did mentioned the promise mentioned in Acts 2.39 which is 2 fold. which is given to all repentant baptized believers will receive 1) forgiveness of sins 2) the gift of the Holy Spirit which is being sealed by the Holy Spirit Eph 1.13-14
here is what the CoC believes worded a little different than normal Eph 2.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. Some of the questions we need to focus on is 1) what is grace and mercy since they are linked together 2) what is faith (belief) & what is involved in this to have a saving faith (belief) 3) at what point in one's growth in one's faith is one saved 1) what is grace? God giving something we do not deserve. God Forgave us of our sins. Does not contain all aspects of grace what is mercy? God not giving us something we deserve wages of sin is death. God us his son to die on the cross to pay the price for our sins. Does not contain all aspects of mercy 2) what is faith (one's belief) John 3.16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life by this passage many claim that Belief in Jesus is just a mental acknowledgement of Jesus and nothing else. But is this Correct? John 3.19-21 due to time, I'll focus on vs 21 But >>whoever does what is true >his works> whoever does the will
Notice how the CoC will always say we can't earn salvation, but that there are works that we must do in order to get saved. That is a complete contradiction! Two mutually exclusive assertions cannot possibly both be true, within the same context. So this reveals something very sinister within the CoC. Because, obviously, its leaders realize deep down that they are promoting a false gospel not represented in Scripture, or else they would not try so hard to re-define their terms and hide what is really being taught in the CoC when they are exposed.
@@christrescuedme2182 You are the one who keeps twisting things.Which one of these is a work CoC says 1) must believe >> John 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” >>> this is God clarifying what true belief is >> those who DOES the truth >> isn't this a work 2) must repent true repentance involves a changed life style >> isn't this a work 3) be baptized >> Titus 3.5 says we are not saved by works BUT according to mercy >> what follows is not a work but telling us how to receive GOd's mercy
As a minister of the churches of Christ and preaching the gospel for over 15 years, what Trey Fisher says here about the churches of Christ is not accurate. I am watching this wondering why he is distorting what the churches of Christ teach. We believe the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We read that baptism partakes in the death and burial of Christ as noted in Romans 6:1-8 and Colossians 2:12-13 so that dying to sin and being buried in baptism we rise from baptism to walk in newness of life. Furthermore, we do believe in justification by faith believing that Jesus is Lord and that He bodily rose from the dead (Romans 4; 10:9-10). That is the life changing message that produces good works in us.
@@christrescuedme2182 Hebrews 4:2 affirms as Romans 10:17 does that faith must be joined with hearing the gospel. The thief professed his faith that Jesus was innocent any wrong and that He is the Messianic King in his plea for Christ to remember Him. This was before Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection which is the saving gospel, and before Jesus's command of baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This was all before the new covenant of Christ being established through His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension to God (Heb 9:15-17).
@@Romans720 So how do you reconcile that two-gospel theory with Hebrews 4:2 and its parallel passages (e.g., Isa.53:1, Jn. 12:38, Rom. 3:29-30; 10:16 and Gal. 3:6-8)?
HINT #1: In those verses, notice that according to Isaiah, John and Paul, the “report” of Isaiah 53 was nothing less than the pure and unadulterated gospel of Jesus Christ, with nothing added to it. Also carefully notice that Isaiah, John and Paul never equated water baptism with obeying the gospel (Rom. 10:16), because the gospel of Jesus Christ does NOT include man’s own contributions. The sum and substance of the entire gospel is simply Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2), nothing more, nothing less. These truths not only confirm the fact that the true gospel was preached long before Pentecost, but they also further disprove the CoC’s theory of water baptism being a part of the gospel message.
I was in COC for several years and thank them for their love and fellowship. I now see all churches are corrupt in one way or another therefore i now only follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, love God and love my neighbor.
Sadly, many seem to be absolutely clueless when it comes to the damnable heresies that truly make up a Christian cult, such as: Baptismal Regeneration, Open Theism, Pelagianism, Sinless Perfectionism, etc., all of which are found in the CoC. The restoration movement also gave rise to other cults, such as LDS, JW's, SDA's, Oneness Pentecostalism, etc., which speaks volumes.
I understand your perspective, but as a result you've simply created your own tradition that you follow and have put yourself in the same position as the other churches from made up traditions.
@@johncruickshank7455 Ok, but just know that rejecting the hierarchy that God put in place within the Church in no way gets you closer to God. And I agree that coC and other denominations are not legitimate, but that doesn't mean we throw out the baby with the bath water and no longer seek the legitimate Church that Christ established.
I was saved out of the church of Christ at 16 when I was about to commit suicide because I couldn’t live a righteous life before God. I hated God and everyone else, but God opened my heart to believe in his name right before I was about to end my life. God eventually brought me to the truth about how I was saved through men like John MacArthur and Jeff Durbin. I want to thank all of the people at Cultish for getting the gospel of grace, which is the only Gospel, out there and especially for willing to wade into the mess that is CoC theology, culture, and practice. God be with all the household of faith till kingdom come. Christ is so precious and the cross is so beautiful, don’t trade that for water that only washes away grime off of the body
@Yvonne Yes! Even in Acts 11:16-18, Peter describes what God had done in Acts 10, and there’s absolutely no mention of water baptism saving anyone, but only of Holy Spirit baptism into the Body of Christ through faith. He is wonderful indeed! And everything we need to know is right there in His Word.
@Yvonne I agree. Water baptism is often, but not always, one of the first fruits of sanctification. Sadly, the CoC confuses justification with sanctification, just as Rome does.
When I was 20 years old, I was met by a woman on my college campus who invited me to a Bible study (Bible Talk). Because I was so spiritually hungry, I quickly fell into a series of studies with them and was eventually baptized. It only took 9 months in the church for me to become physically, mentally and emotionally exhausted. By God’s grace, my brother was coming to the Lord at around the same time. The contrast of the freedom he was finding in Christ and the heavy yoke of works I was under was night and day. Again, by the loving providence of God, my brother was able to lead me out of the church and it began a true walk with Jesus. One note, this was in NYC, and the group was part of the International Church of Christ, or the ‘Boston movement’.
Thanks for sharing. Yes, the Boston movement can often be more aggressive than mainline CoC's, but they both still share the same salvation theology, which is why they both end up with the same sad outcomes.
No every COC is the same but one thing I would say to you is that Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by Grace through faith. no grace only not faith only.
Let me recommend that you do a bit more research regarding the beginning of the Stone-Campbell or American Restoration Movement that produced the CoC. Your guest completely messed that up. Stone and the Campbells were Presbyterians and their impetus was the number of exclusive factions in Christendom. Thomas Campbell was a minister in the Old-Light Anti-Burgher Seceder Presbyterian Church. Every one of those words represents a faction. They rejected not the ancient creeds but the Reformed confessions using words similar to Luther's own - I can accept them as far as they agree with Scripture. But then, why do you need them? The Campbells were baptized, as adults and they baptized others as adults. Their desire to "return to the Bible" was grounded in trying to find a common, non-exclusivistic practice of Christianity. There was nothing "lost and found" any more than the Reformers thought they had "found that which was lost."
I agree with what you said. If Campbell had started a Church (which he did not) they probably would be known today as Campbellite's but I have never heard about that Church. What is evident today is that John the Baptist like Campbell were never commanded to start a church but we have the Baptist Church today.
@@karigross4596 Am just saying what some Baptist say and others deny but in the Bible God never Commanded John to start a Church. If John did not start the Baptist church according to other Baptist then the question is who did?
Spot on. The history was butchered. I will admit that in my experience in the coc the Restoration history is ignored. I find it really funny that the group who embraces their history the most(disciples of Christ) are as far from the movement as possible except they take communion each week.
Yah its always do more research. as far as i know I have never gone online claiming that the coc was started by Campbell which is what you guys have done. In history there was never a group called Campbellites nor did Campbell start a church, just as John the Baptist did not start the Baptist church. Find books that are not bias and you will agree with me,
Long term member of the church here, well traveled and visited many congregations, absolutely never heard this idea in connection with the age of accountability.
Thank you for sharing! I left the Church of Christ been in it all my life to a Baptist church. This has helped me drastically to understand the difference of what I was taught to the real meaning of following Christ! This has led me in the right direction. It’s hard to have the majority not speaking to you and think your lost for leaving Especially when your family is still in it. But so worth letting go of always being in fear because of what I was taught growing up and learning the true gospel.
Hey, guys. I'm late to the party (as usual) just wanted to say thank you for the look into the Church of Christ. I spent the first 28 years of my life in it, and was so disillusioned that my last several years of reasoning out that I had no faith at all was difficult to overcome. I became a real Christian at the age of 34 and now at 35 am a Pastoral Ministry Student. Keep up the good work. Love you guys.
Into what church were believers added (Acts 2:47) after being baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27)? The Church of Christ (Romans 16:16). ♥️ Jesus is not coming back for multiple churches that teach different doctrines and false plans of salvation (Galatians 1:8). He is not a polygamist. He is coming back for His one Bride. 💜 There is no authority for denominations in Scripture (division). All who die in a denomination die in a lost condition. He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.” Matthew 15:13
@@christrescuedme2182 Jesus commands water baptism, Mark 16:16, John 3:5 He says his commandments are not burdensome 1 John 5:3 Which Bible are you reading, may I ask?
Truth, all truth. I was raised in the church of Christ and left when I was 18. The church I attended preached that it was "their way" or the highway to hell every time the doors were open. Very little on God's love. There were some true Christians there though, who I know loved the Lord. That church is still open, but barely. I finally found a true Bible-believing church when I was 32, and it's been so wonderful knowing I have true salvation in Jesus Christ alone.
I’m sorry that was your experience. Thankfully mine has been very different. Grace has been a central teaching, and all the more so in my theology courses at Cincinnati Bible College and Seminary, mostly under Dr Jack Cottrell. It really seems to depend on the particular Church.
I had some experiences with the Atlanta Church of Christ in the 90s. They were part of the International Churches of Christ or the Boston Movement. Saw some people disappear into it and started reading and looking around for info on them. Kip McKean was the maniac in charge at the time. But he and his wife were ousted in a very public, very messy power struggle. The whole movement took a huge hit then and through the early 2000s. I didn’t realize they were still around. I stopped keeping track of them because they’d lost so many of their pillar churches it seemed like they were defeated. They’re extremely spiritually dangerous.
The United Church of Christ is a mainstream/mainline Poststent church which was founded early in this country's history. They are a fairly liberal denomination. Nothing cultish at all about them. In my opinion, the Church of Christ used this name to spread around and to hide their true intentions or beliefs. My brother in law and his wife are members and they are extreme in their beliefs. The Atlanta Church of Christ branched off of the Church of Christ and they were very cultish and controlling of their members. Even my COC brother in law called my husband to warn him to stay away from them, because they're a cult. United Churches of Christ are the normal ones. If they aren't called that then they are the cult Church of Christ, which are all over the US.
The international Church of Christ isn’t the church of Christ. They are a cult. They have zero to do with the actual church of Christ. They do not live and worship by the Bible alone, specifically the New Testament. They follow some discipleship program where they all try to be like the cult leader who created the cult.
@@txsleepwalker6640 they are not like you said yet have common threads and one branched off from the other. It’s important for people to know the history.
So far I'm 41 minutes in. I really like y'all's content. I've been looking forward to an episode like this for a long time. I'm about to binge watch the next one too. My background is I grew up SDA and eventually became agnostic to atheist back to Christian. On my journey back is cuz I'm very big into apologetics. I will did several different churches. I used to go to first Baptist churches. I checked out Catholicism Methodist other Protestant Presbyterian Pentecostal churches. I'm big in asking questions. Doing lots of research and understanding scripture and I love apologetics. My wife grew up Church of Christ. I didn't know I was attending a Church of Christ for years before I met my wife Aunt. She was really big on us. Only attending a church of Christ when we got married. I have lots of reservations about Church of Christ. We currently attend a Church of Christ and thus far I have not heard them. Teach believe anything to what has been presented a lot of times. I hear them teach the opposite and a lot of this seems to be a straw man representation in my opinion that I've also seeing Church Elizabeth of Christ do to Baptist or reformed Baptist and I hate those straw man arguments because you're falsely representing other groups. Now why I say I feel like a lot of this is a straw man is because I firmly believe there are many Churches of Christ that are what you are discussing here. But I've seen many that are not and I've noticed there's a very wide variety and from research branches of Churches of Christ. I guess y'all make that distinction later. I really feel like so far that is the main thing that is lacking.
I think this episode shows that you need to do your own research and not rely solely on the word of one "expert". To label the churches of Christ as a cult is irresponsible. I will say, I could not listen to the whole thing. He was so misinformed and saying such falsehoods that it hurt my heart.
Yeah not sure about the cult characterization either. I don’t agree with COC teachings but I always thought the #1 characteristic of a cult is that they can’t have any contact with anyone who has left it and salvation is only through their church/org/etc.
TheLyndsay1990 0 seconds ago He has been ostracized from everyone in the church of Christ because of his beliefs. The church openly says to its congregation that he has sown discord and for their members to not have anything to do with him or his church people. They have been told to not study with them and love them from a distance. This comes because he believes that God is completely sovereign and that baptism is not what saves you. He believes you are saved by faith alone as does this podcast.
They are a cult because they preach a false gospel that is condemned by Scripture. I was a CoC captive for over 30 years and it's only by the grace of God that I have escaped such deception and found the true Savior.
I've gone to Church of Christ congregations for many years; I've always understood: Baptism as an act of obedience, basically part of your confession that Jesus is the Son of God Old Testament _Law_, the ceremonial parts, don't apply. But moral law, that's eternal. Denomination doesn't save you, only Christ. There are COC preachers, people, and congregations that believe and teach this or that thing in this video, but the core is we try to stick to the Bible and not to go beyond it. Sola Scriptura
After watching this video, which was great, although I wish it had more info to answer CoC, then reading the comments, not only do I have a headache, but am convinced that CoC is bizarre! I am married to a man who was raised in the CoC, so that is all he knows, despite the fact he disputes that to say he went to a Baptist church once. I was raised in the Baptist church, but I didn’t like what I saw there either. I started learning about the reformation, and my world changed. I have learned things from the Bible, thanks to the Holy Spirit’s guidance, that I never saw before. I left the CoC that my husband and I had been going to for a few years, and I was treated terribly by them and shunned. None of them talk to me anymore. They told me I was lost because of leaving the church. My husband was ready to divorce me over it. Long story short, I decided in order to save my marriage and to keep the peace, I went to another CoC with him, but I cannot swallow their doctrine. If I hear, ‘hear, believe, repent, confess and be baptized” one more time I will scream. I have tried all different ways to tell my husband what the Bible actually says about the Gospel, and that the blood of Jesus is what saves us. The entire Bible is a beautiful picture, from Genesis to Revelation, of God’s perfect plan - a perfect sacrifice. There are types and shadows in the OT, and it matches up with the NT. You need to have a good understanding of the OT in order to understand the NT. You have to look up original language words to get the full meaning of words translated in English. “Speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent” is another phrase CoC likes to use, but they don’t take their own advise. I am currently keeping my beliefs to myself for now until, God willing, my husband is called by God and the Holy Spirit guides him to truly study the Word. Until then, my learning is in secret. God is in control and knows exactly what is in my heart, and that since I was a little girl of 10 years old, I have sought his truths. I will keep learning until He takes me home. I will also keep praying that eventually I won’t have to step foot in another CoC as long as I live. It is false teaching. “What can wash away my sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus”. Blood sacrifice was always the plan, from OT to NT. Jesus was the ultimate perfect sacrifice. Most of CoC people I know are not well educated in the Bible, do not exegete the Word properly, and do not love people who are not CoC. Red flag.
Im sorry to hear that Cindy. I believe we will be doing a follow up soon. I would love to talk with your husband about these things. Praying for you and your situation. God is with you through it all and His plan for you is working out perfectly...continue to trust in him.
@@CHall338 praise God! Episode TWO comes out Tuesday. Answering the objections. You can also see a lot of CoC content on my CZcams channel, The Parish Reformed. Praise God Cindy!
In my time in college, there were a few church of christ missionaries. They were very persistent on the fact that they were the one true church and that there was no salvation except though them. I did a couple bible studies with them and even attended one of their church services. At their church service, I got a very weird vide. Consequently, I did not return or speak to them again. They told me I would be going to hell for no joining them even though I am Southern Baptist. I eventually looked them up and I saw so many stories of people who's relationship with God was harmed by the theology of this church. One of the things that threw me off was these assigned disciples that would look over new members. It almost looked like members had no private life because their disciple would know everything about them and what they were doing. All the people that would conduct the bible studies on campus also lived together, adding to a very intrusive lifestyle aspect that really put me off. It seemed that if you did not do everything they said and did, your personal relationship with God was not good enough for salvation.
This!!! This is exactly what happened to me in the Spring of 2013! Before I was a Christian, I was a universalist (very common in Cali), but I was pretty open-minded about other belief systems, so when this guy (let's call him mike), invited me to, what I thought to be a light Bible study, I agreed, thinking he was completely normal. I went to these Bible studies led by Mike and his friend (we'll call him Paul) at my school. I've come to know they intentionally prey on college students. They said in these studies that the ICoC was the only real church and told me that in order to be saved, I must be baptized in their church and be virtually sinless. Looking back, they cherry-picked about 10 verses and made them the entirety of scripture, which is what all cults do. The first red flag I had was that Mike and Paul called/texted me at, like, 5 AM every morning and told me that if I was truly a devoted Christian, I'd get up hours before sunrise to read my Bible. They then would constantly text me intrusive questions throughout the day. Now, I'm pretty grumpy if I don't get a full night's rest, so that got real tired real fast. The second was that they discouraged me from reading anything other than the book of Acts (not even the other Gospels or any of the epistles) and certainly discouraged me from reading any 'blind theologian', as they would call them. Third, they talked as though they had memorized a script (which there is one that you can find on Google), and if you brought up something they didn't prepare for, they would just say, 'Yeah, Amen,' or something like to just brush it aside. Fourth, Mike and Paul tried to evoke emotional responses. When they explained the way to be saved, they basically interrogated me and questioned whether or not I truly wanted to be saved because I wasn't crying when they gave me their gospel. But the biggest red flag of them all was the night I went to their church a few weeks before Easter and met their congregants. It was, by far, the weirdest, cultiest thing I had ever witnessed. Everyone was nice, but they were too nice and it didn't feel genuine. In researching them, is their love-bombing stage to get people initiated into their cult (which later turns to a shunning stage if you step outta line). Then, they had a collection and everybody looked at me as though I killed someone when I didn't give anything (I was a broke college student at the time; gimme a break!). Mike told me that the church basically owns you and your finances. The sermon was basically 'you need to get baptized in the ICoC way', but what struck me as weird was that the pastor rarely quoted the Bible. He just said what the church tells its congregants to say when they do their evangelism. Mike then introduced me to this super sweet girl, but again, she was a little too sweet and it felt very weird and uncomfortable. She told me that she had prayed for new male members to come and strengthen the body and was super flirtatious all night. She sat next to me, Mike, and Mike's wife during the service, and afterwards, she wouldn't leave me alone. Mike told me when he dropped me off at home that she was praying for a husband, so I better get baptized in their church so I could marry her! I later found out that the ICoC sometimes will arrange marriages and at the very least make you get permission from them if you wanna get married. She probably thought I was gonna be her husband. A whole bunch of the congregants wanted my phone number, which I stupidly gave to them, where they would proceed to call or text me constantly, from 5 AM to the middle of the night. The last straw for me was that Paul wanted me to do something with them during Holy week and I told them no because I had to get ready for my family's Easter party. Paul said something to me about choosing my family over God because cults try to separate you from your families (misapplying the verse about hating your mother and father btw). I kinda went off on him because at that point, I'd had enough and he was acting all apologetic, saying that he wasn't trying to pressure me. That was the last time I ever spoke to any of them. They called and texted, but I blocked all their numbers. I was beyond done with them at that point, and I spent the next few weeks researching them and finding out so much crazy stuff about that cult-like their dangerous disciplinary practices for dissenting members, their financial structure as a pyramid scheme, and the fact that they try to separate you from your family and friends. I avoided certain places at school where I knew they'd be because I didn't want them to harass me. But what Satan meant for evil, God meant for good. In researching about them, I came across Kirk Cameron's and Ray Comfort's ministry Living Waters, where they explained what the true Gospel was and why the ICoC was a cult. If I hadn't come across them, I would be lost to this day. TL;DR: The ICoC is a cult and they're weird, but the Lord used my brief experience with them to bring me to the true Gospel, repentance and faith.
Sounds exactly like the cult “International Church of Christ” and not church of Christ. The ICOC has nothing to do with the actual church of Christ. They do things they call “ discipleship,”’and and other practices that they make up. They are a denomination that was or still is run by a cult leader. Seems like his name was or is Kipp. They were a bigger deal more than 20 years ago and back the. They were the fastest growing cult in the USA, even faster than the Mormon cult. They do not pattern their life and worship by the New Testament alone, like Jesus’ actual church of Christ.
I had the same experience in college. Those folks are not the same as the mainline C of C that originated with Barton, Stone, & Campbell. The campus C of C people are a separate group. However, both groups have questionable theology. The campus folks are a cult and are very controlling.
There are many so-called "churches" throughout the country that call themselves the Church of Christ when in fact they ARE A CULT that just wants your money The statement you made that said: I have been a member of the Church for over 50 years and none of the churches I have attended have said anything like this. The church I attend says you give from your heart as god has prospered you. There is no pressure for anyone to give. Preachers in the CofC quote the bible throughout their sermons to support their statements and reasons for our beliefs. Another statement I have never heard which is beyond silly, I have never heard of this, and like I said I have been in the church for over 50 years. "???? There is NO holy week in the true Church of Christ> Lastly, the farthest thing from the truth is that Our mission is to save the LOST and doing so, bring your friends and family TO Christ, not push you or them away. I suggest you do more research and look for a Church of Christ that is biblically correct and not one that is truly a cult. May God Bless you in your search for the truth.
👋 Member of the COC. Now, wife of a preacher. Been active in COC for 24 years. Been member of COC from east to west coast and back again. To clarify, only 10ish min in. Barton Stone and the Campbells were restorers in the same vein that Calvin and Luther were restorers. You can call one set “reformers” and one set “restorers” all you want, but they were all appealing to Scripture as authority to stop what they saw as errors in their local Churches. Luther and Calvin were both labeled as heretical as you are labeling the COC now, for the same thing….A plea to return to scripture. Luther and Calvin were trying to get people to understand scripture, to correct what they saw in the Catholic teachings of the day b/c they recognized something was amiss. That is the same thing the Stone and the Campbells were doing. They were all trying to “restore” teachings back to scripture. Also, COC cannot be lumped in with Mormons or JW as in a “restoration” movement. Mormons and JW’s were not restoring people to scripture. They were publishing new “revelations/prophecies,” not just asking for people to return to scripture. Furthermore, they don’t even believe that Jesus was God while on earth. The COC whole heartily teaches that Jesus was God while on earth, b/c that is what scripture says. And the COC doesn’t teach that you only have to be baptized to be saved. The NT is filled with verses that say salvation includes belief, faith, repentance, grace, baptism, and continuing to try to live according to what Christ asks of us as Paul pleaded in Ephesians 4:1. Now walk in a manner worthy of your calling, but we also know from Paul we can’t be perfect and see that in his testimony in 1 Co7- 1 Cor 8:2. There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. His grace is sufficient. I don’t wonder if I am saved or worry about being in or out of salvation or “working for it” b/c 1John 3:15 tells me I can know that I have eternal life. However, hypothetically, if I choose one day to deny God, deny Christ, then I will walk away from my faith in Him, just like all of those Paul listed in 2nd Timothy. Then I made the choice to walk away from that salvation. But,… if I repent of that denial and come back to Christ… No need to be rebaptized, just know Christ is always there with open arms. Even if I made the choice to deny my faith and leave Him. He is never the one who leaves us. Also, this lumps a lot of various COC teachings together. The International COC/Boston movement and the non-institutional/anti-church are completely different from mainline COC. Maybe they explain that more, but the comments seem to lump us together. Still each COC even within mainline will have various understandings on Holy Spirit, worship, women’s roles, etc. b/c each congregation is autonomous.
@@hawkeye2958 you can label anything works, that doesn’t make it logical. Christ said, “if you love me you will keep my commandments and my commandments are not burdensome.” I Guess the Israelites should have sat down on the bank of the Red Sea and not crossed b/c that would have been “working” for their salvation. Trying to live like Christ asks us too is not “works” anymore that what the Israelites did, it is humble obedience.
@@shellbell2167 There's a huge difference between those who wanted to escape Romanism (the true reformers) and those who wanted to "restore" Romanism. The Stone/Campbell "restorationists" claimed to restore “unity,” based on what they termed “the ancient gospel.” But what they actually “restored” was the Roman Catholic, sacramental concept of salvation, primarily, Baptismal Regeneration.
I think we have to be careful about labeling such a large and varied group a cult. I grew up in the CoC and although the gospel was more apparent to me in the baptist church, I believe it is still there in many places. I have lots of family members in CoC who believe in the real gospel including imputed righteousness by faith. It is not a very top-down organization (in my experience) so a lot of churches’ beliefs depend on individual pastors’ teaching.
Agreed, i grew up in an independent Christian church and have seen many people from the CoC denomination that do not nearly fit into the picture painted here. Massive generalization being done here
Sadly, many seem to be absolutely clueless when it comes to the damnable heresies that truly make up a Christian cult, such as: Baptismal Regeneration, Open Theism, Pelagianism, Sinless Perfectionism, etc., all of which are found in the CoC. The restoration movement also gave rise to other cults, such as LDS, JW's, SDA's, Oneness Pentecostalism, etc., which speaks volumes.
@@christrescuedme2182 If you do a search on CZcams regarding cults, everything is being called a cult these days. Even atheists are calling out atheist groups as cults. I tell you, CZcams is the new Salem and the witch trials have commenced. lol
@@Journey_of_Abundance Yes, they prefer to fly under the radar, which makes them even more dangerous than the average cult, because they refuse to be pinned down on what they really believe. This is how they've gathered such a following all these years, and it's exactly how they keep their converts so spiritually deceived. But being that I was one of them for over 30 years, I can see right through all of their shenanigans, which is why they hate me with a passion. It's only a miracle of God's grace that I escaped.
@@FatherSun76737 The reason there are so many cults today, is because we are living in a time of great deception, my friend. And one of the tools of satan is to convince people that there is no absolute truth, or that "every religion is just a cult," or that you are just some kind of "witch hunter" if you call out heresy for what it is. But true Christianity is the only religion in the world that believes salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in the biblical Jesus Christ alone.
what they teach does not match what the Scripture teaches which follows Eph 2.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. Some of the questions we need to focus on is 1) what is grace and mercy since they are linked together 2) what is faith (belief) & what is involved in this to have a saving faith (belief) 3) at what point in one's growth in one's faith is one saved 1) what is grace? God giving something we do not deserve. God Forgave us of our sins. Does not contain all aspects of grace what is mercy? God not giving us something we deserve wages of sin is death. God us his son to die on the cross to pay the price for our sins. Does not contain all aspects of mercy 2) what is faith (one's belief) John 3.16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life by this passage many claim that Belief in Jesus is just a mental acknowledgement of Jesus and nothing else. But is this Correct? John 3.19-21 due to time, I'll focus on vs 21 But >>whoever does what is true >his works> whoever does the will
@@jayu2551 We are saved when we believe in Christ. I recieved the baltism of the Holy Spirit in my bedroom. We must believe with everything in us, i have been baltized as we should. But those dieing can ask Jesus to be LORD of them and He will be. For those who are alive on earth, accept Jesus, be baptized and walk it out. Walking it out exercises our trust in Him and our belief that He will care for us. If we believe in anything we are going to walk that out. But we are saved not by works but because of what Jesus already accomplished. When we walk it out it is a testament of whether we really believed when we said it or not. If we continue to try verses saying we believe and not caring when we are convicted. We are saved by nothing of ourselves. The works that we are speaking about, are what we do after we believe/profess to be believers. We judge by the believers fruit.
@@sherricoffee7067 Sadly, the CoC has no true knowledge of how we are to “work OUT our salvation with fear and trembling,” rather than work FOR our salvation which is why it always isolates this passage from the verse that follows, “For it is God which worketh in you to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Phil. 2:12-13).
@@christrescuedme2182 Amen! If not for grace, then why did Jesus take our sin upon Him? When Jesus said it is done, we doubt the Word of God if we believe there is something we who are filth (made rightouse by Him) believe we should add to it with some miserable work that is thought of and exercised through a willingness to produce evil and not good? Without Jesus we are filthy rags. Glory to God we are made rightouse and stand in front of God now because of what Jesus did. After we see our sin, then He shows us our savior whoch brings hope, then the actions of our walk produce fruit, not works, but living to love Him and let Him live through us... Not working, living. You are right friend. Thank you for your reply.
@@sherricoffee7067 Into what church were believers added (Acts 2:47) after being baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27)? The Church of Christ (Romans 16:16). ♥️ Jesus is not coming back for multiple churches that teach different doctrines and false plans of salvation (Galatians 1:8). He is not a polygamist. He is coming back for His one Bride. 💜 There is no authority for denominations in Scripture (division). All who die in a denomination die in a lost condition. He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.” Matthew 15:13 Baptism of the Holy Spirit only occurred twice with the apostles, all apostolic gifts have ceased 1 Corinthians 13 “Not by faith alone” James 2:24
here is a brief summary of what some, most, coC believe about grace, when is grace received, but not worded in the way they usually say it Eph 2.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. Some of the questions we need to focus on is 1) what is grace and mercy since they are linked together 2) what is faith (belief) & what is involved in this to have a saving faith (belief) 3) at what point in one's growth in one's faith is one saved 1) what is grace? God giving something we do not deserve. God Forgave us of our sins. Does not contain all aspects of grace what is mercy? God not giving us something we deserve wages of sin is death. God us his son to die on the cross to pay the price for our sins. Does not contain all aspects of mercy 2) what is faith (one's belief) John 3.16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life by this passage many claim that Belief in Jesus is just a mental acknowledgement of Jesus and nothing else. But is this Correct? John 3.19-21 due to time, I'll focus on vs 21 But >>whoever does what is true >his works> whoever does the will
Like Pelagianism, the CoC denies our desperate need of the Savior as soon as we’re conceived (Ps. 51:5; 58:3). Never mind that infants often have to pay the wages of sin, which is death. Although they are innocent of volitional sin (Jer. 2:34), they have inherent sin, or else no babies would ever die. “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 6:23).
@@christrescuedme2182 Psalm 51 doesn't say what you want it to say. Infants die for the same reason Adam did - he didn't have access to the Tree of Life. At least that's what the narrative says. You should actually read your Bible.
@@HoytRoberson I actually do read my Bible, unlike some who try to make up their own narrative to fit the CoC's pet doctrines. Scripture is clear. "The wages of SIN is death" (Rom. 6:23). It does NOT say the wages of "the lack of access to the tree of life" is death. Adam DID have access to the tree of life, until he sinned. Since then, God has kept mankind from that tree, in order to prevent them from living forever in a fallen condition. However, those who receive the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ will once again have access to the tree of life (Rev. 22:2).
Grew up in CoC went to Harding and am someone who still follows Christ. A lot of your points 1) I have never heard taught, not saying that there aren’t outliers but largely your arguments I’ve never heard taught or were completely miss understood or miss represented as a whole. 2) You largely argued form a straw man fallacy, not a place where I want to build my foundation for an argument. This video did not represent the CoC view well as a whole from my 30+ years of experience. If anyone wants base CoC and hear their views from the horses mouth check out the unashamed podcast. czcams.com/video/kKXxzGReegY/video.html.
For centuries Christians have tried to biblically reason with CoC leaders, but more often than not, they will tenaciously cling to the Campbellism script that the CoC universities have indoctrinated them into. Sadly, Christians who try to reach them with the true gospel, and expose the CoC's heresies, are often treated as if they are completely ignorant of what the CoC actually teaches, because the veil is still over the eyes of those who are deeply entrenched in it, which makes them unable to fully comprehend the heretical implications of their own belief system.
@@christrescuedme2182 each CoC is it's own local church.. They're known to be nondenominational. He cant speak as though each COC has the same problems.
@@christrescuedme2182 you're quick to condemned without doing actual research of each church. they're locally runned with their own elders how would you kno if they're following heretical or not, you must be self righteous! If u actually cared about these churchs u would pray for them, instead of condemning them. Satan won't stop at trying leading us astray and dividing us, the least u could do is pray that God help them seek truth smh
@@michi-bi Why would you assume that I've not done my research? I've only written an entire book about it. Lol. Perhaps apostle Paul should have just prayed for the Judaizers instead of exposing their false gospel, right?...NOT
For the sake of not honesty and fairness, please be sure to make a distinction between the mainline Churches of Christ that came from the Stone-Campbell Restoration movement and the Boston Church of Christ, which is a cult. Many people get confused about that.
@@gregcarlson8438 they wanted me to move into an all women's home so I could be completely under their control. My brother also attended for a while. He almost lost his marriage over this church. All the women I met had either been socially abused, had serious addiction issues or eating disordered. I am not judging because I fit in one of those categories, just an observation.
@@dianmichaelis I lived in a few of those households. I couldn’t date the girl I was interested in for two years with lots of control over that relationship. We’ve been married for 19 years now so that was a long time ago.
I was baptized into an ultra conservative CoC at age 19. I was sold on it for about 6 years until GOD, by His grace allowed me to start questioning what I was observing. At first I still accepted their presentation of the "gospel." It was the outward behavior that was initially driving my search (public confessions, KJV only, suit and tie always for preaching, no instruments, must attend all classes and door to door evangelism, etc...) Eventually I worked from the outward inward and began to see that they never preached to me the gospel at all. What they taught me was a series of steps ultimately ending in water baptism. And even then, its not guaranteed you'll make it. You have to maintain a position of salvation. I became and professional eggshell walker and never had any assurance ( ironically, we only sung hymns using a pitch pipe and one of the hymns was "Blessed Assurance"). I was constantly making sure all the boxes were checked. All my research and study had to be done privately because they didn't acknowledge any outside sources concerning theology. I once brought an ESV to bible class and got talked to afterwards by a "teacher." Fully persuaded, I left quietly. Trying to go toe to toe at that time probably would've resulted in me being "withdrawn from" thus severing any ability to reach out to them in the future to preach. I came to hear the gospel, repented and believed through an online source. I'm grateful to be saved. I'm grateful for your ministry. Thank you so much!
@Yvonne So true. That's how it was for me when I was in the CoC. But once God led me to true expositions of scripture, I remember being brought to tears when God finally gave me the blessed assurance that He accepted the righteousness of Christ on behalf of sinners like me. And I've never been the same since! He set me free! Needless to say, Jesus became precious to me as I perceived a peace in my soul that He had always loved me with an everlasting love, and that I was His forever. By the Lord giving me such strong consolation, I was finally able to know true, supernatural and eternal “joy and peace in believing” (Rom. 15:13), without a terrifying fear of losing my faith and ending up in Hell! God saved me because Jesus is perfect, Not because my faith, repentance or knowledge of His truth was perfect.
1 Corinthians 1:14 “I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;” “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”Psalms 51:5 We are born with a sin nature
@@rickraybourn7456 The CoC suggests that Paul was just thankful that he hadn’t personally baptized the Christians at Corinth because they were calling themselves by the name of the person who had performed their baptism. But this lame excuse makes Paul out to be a tease who tells them that they can only be saved by water baptism… but then withholds it from them! So, the CoC system must answer the question… just how in the world did Paul begat believers in Corinth through the gospel if he didn’t baptize them? Because Paul clearly stated: “for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:15). Ironically, the CoC's characteristic ploy of trying to defend a lie with another lie always catches up with it, and proves that the gospel Paul preached….was Not the CoC's watered-down “water gospel."
I Grew up in the COC, father was a preacher in COC, my two aunts married COC preachers, and I attended a COC university. I still go to the COC, over 50 years old. I read through some of the comments, and I thought to myself what kind of COC are these! I don't doubt that there are folks that went to a building with the signage of Church of Christ and had bad experiences and I'm glad that they found another church and remained a follower of Christ. I never believed we were born perfect. Though it is interesting that Jesus said in Matthew 19:14, "the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." [a child] But sinlessness was not what was so special to Jesus here. Children were not the explicit target of the gospel, but men and women. The bible refers to parents properly raising their children. Or Paul mentions about Timothy and what sounds like him growing up around faithful believers. 2 Timothy 1:5. The great commission was to preach the gospel to world, to parse out some specific statement about the sin nature of children, seems to not be a priority in the bible. We are all born in the line of Adam. Baptism was always shown in the bible as a companion of belief. When you read the gospels and your read Acts, when people believed the gospel, they were baptized. So, "If you look at God's word" it shows the response to hearing and believing the gospel is baptism. I never heard of being baptized into the COC, as though your wore a members only jacket. There was baptism while Jesus was still alive John 4:1-3, the disciples were baptizing. Also you didn't really dig into Acts 2:38, you mentioned Acts 2:39 and trailed away from it, Acts 10:44-48, proves the point. The point, that, once the Holy Spirit affirmed that faith in Christ was for the gentiles too and not just the "circumcised", those gentiles were baptized. To me it's not argument about "I'm saved by baptism", because we are not, salvation is a gift. I sin and a second later I die, I'm going to heaven. If you are seeking a relationship with Christ and you believe that the Scripture is the inspired word of God, Read the bible and obey what it says. You will never be perfect. Paul repeats over and over the continual struggle and challenges in following Christ, but great is the reward. It is a simple daily formula, read scripture, pray, and live by faith, for our hope is not in what is seen, but what is unseen. I like the song Trust and Obey, for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey. 1 John 2:3-11 Scripture says that the church is the bride of Christ. It uses marriage as an example of Jesus relationship with the church. I don't bother myself with Barton Stone or Alexander Campbell, or the intentions of the restoration movement. When I think of a group of people meeting together every Sunday, following and worshiping Jesus Christ, the Church of Christ is aptly named, or the Church of God. Is that not what it is?
Although the CoC claims to have no formal creeds, you might want to better familiarize yourself with the CoC's official literature, which speaks volumes.
@@christrescuedme2182 where does one go to find official CoC literature? I would suggest this doesn’t exist. Sad to learn after all these years that I am in a cult.
@@cartermahanay2729 One of the CoC's official publications is called "House to House Heart to Heart." It deceptively re-defines biblical terminology, which confirms all that's being exposed about the CoC. It's better late than never, when it comes to realizing one's true spiritual condition. There's still time to repent and to come to the true Jesus of the Bible; the true Savior Who actually saves rather than expecting people to save themselves first.
@@cartermahanay2729 Also, one of the CoC"s main publishers is "The Gospel Advocate," which has been aggressively promoting the CoC's secret creeds (that it claims not to have) since 1866.
@@christrescuedme2182 those are not COC official literature. The COC has no official literature other than scripture. Those are publications put out by members of the COC. House to house, heart to heart is under the oversight of a specific congregation, but it would only demonstrate that local congregation’s beliefs, not ALL COC’s. Therefore it cannot be “official literature.” Each COC is autonomous and doesn’t believe everything in those publications is scriptural. Some congregations use house to house to help with evangelism, others do not believe it is accurate and won’t use it. Gospel Advocate is no different than any other publishing company for instance, Zondervan. G.A. will publish items in line with their views just like Zondervan published items in line with their views. Still doesn’t make GA the light on the hill for or official literature. Each Church follows their understanding of scripture. Not every church with the name COC on the sign is scriptural and not every church that has something else on their sign is “unscriptural” either. It’s a gross misunderstanding to lump all COC’s together, each is different. Like I tell my kids. You find a church that follows scripture, I don’t care what is on their sign.
The bible does say in Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
So funny that I found this video! I have a conversation with a collegue, who is a member of Church of Christ, regarding baptism. She asked me to explain to her what is the meaning of John 3.5, Matthieu 28.18-20 and Mark 16.16, so I did. Then, she responded after asking a scholar friend of hers to help her and came back with a lot of Greek and other explanations that, to be honest, were not convincing to me at all. And she asked me other questions regarding those passages in light of her explanations. So now, I have like 9 pages to respond to her and I am not even done!!! This is very time consuming but I will be a master in water baptism! 😆😆 I espacially hope that she'll see the truth by the grace of God. Thank you for this video! I have learn a lot about other teachings of Church of Christ and even heard an argument that I will add to my response to my colleague!
John 3:5 is water from being born, not water baptism. Mark 16:16 is simple if you aren’t told to believe something it doesn’t say. It says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. It is telling us those 2 things are required. You can’t deny this. It then says whoever does not believe won’t be saved because if you don’t believe you can’t be saved. You also can’t be baptized if you don’t believe. The reason baptism isn’t mention in the first half of the verse is because you can believe and still refuse to be baptized. The reason it isn’t mentioned in the second half of the verse if because you can’t be actually baptized without first believing, so if you don’t believe you also won’t get baptized. “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16 NIV
@@adamholmes1992 "John 3:5 is water from being born, not water baptism." Well, it's comforting to know that every human is already half-way there. The way you would have it read is: "Unless a man is born of amniotic fluid, then at some later date born again of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom." Somehow that just doesn't ring true: it looks like someone is struggling to come up with something. Can you name any early Christian writers who saw it that way? Or can you find any references in or out of the Bible (from Greek writers of the time period) of natural childbirth being referenced as a "birth of water" or "born of water."? Your explanation would have a little more credibility is such language was common.
@@brendanjobe6895 I read koine Greek. I still believe that John 3:5 isn’t specifically talking about baptism, but Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Matthew 28, and 1 Peter 3:21 certainly is. The fact that I don’t see John 3:5 talking about it doesn’t change the fact that the New Testament tells us that we are saved by Grace, through Faith, at Baptism (full immersion water baptism).
@@adamholmes1992 Why in the world would you not believe it? It's good that we both read koine Greek. So far, you've asserted that the "born of water" part refers to natural childbirth, i.e. amniotic fluid. I've done a ton of c-sections so I know exactly what you are talking about. And Jesus was talking about entering the church, His kingdom which was at hand. Anyway, why would you go 100% against what people who lived at the time said it meant? That was my question. Not arguing. More like curiosity.
I think I will henceforth say I am part of an independent, non-legalistic, Bible-believing and teaching, grace saved by the blood of Christ, Holy Spirit lead, God seeking, non-denominational Church of Christ. haha We do baptize. We sing with good music. We don't think we're the only ones in Christ, and we don't shun people who leave to go somewhere else. I am sure I forgot something that would please or offend someone, but, gladly, The Lord God Almighty knows what is in the hearts of all people, no matter what the name on their church building, and whether they are part of the Bride of Christ. I am glad some of the commenters here, nor the somewhat incomplete representation here, have any say on whether I am in Christ or not. We all must be careful to follow Christ and His teachings, not the doctrine of a leader nor a denomination. READ the Word of God carefully. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. Love those who hate you and pray for those who persecute you. Gather together with true believers and love each other and encourage each other toward what the Lord has called you.
Hello, huge fan of yalls podcast. I feel like y’all mischaracterized the Robertson’s a little. Now, I could be totally wrong. But, I have been listening to the Unashamed podcast since day 1. And I have never heard them claim things like, we are born perfect, or others cause you to fall into sin, or that it’s grave plus works, etc. in fact, I have heard them say much more that agrees with the views you all point out, and that would seem to be disagreeing with the Church of Christ traditional ideology. Now, like I said maybe I missed some stuff. But, I think you all should have a cultish/unashamed podcast that would be awesome. And y’all should bring up these subjects. I think cultish crew and the Robertson’s would agree on a lot more than they disagree on. Anyway, just a thought, praise Jesus for the work yall do at Apologia!
I don't think they were saying those theologies are what the Robertsons believe but that the Robertsons go to a church that officially believes those things. Edit: Many people I know don't believe every single thing their particular church teaches.
If that’s the case then great. Just from listening, to me it sounding like they are were implying that’s was the Robertson’s theology. The way the conversation flowed. But, yea if that’s the case and I misunderstood than great. I still think a unashamed/cultish podcast would be awesome.
As you watch the Unashamed podcast (which I love btw), pay attention to the debates between Jase and Phil on topics such as baptism or works. If you pay attention you will start to pickup that Phil is much more hardline CoC than Jase. I think Jase gets it. Saved by Grace!
I get what your saying. But from listening I don’t think Phil believe it’s Faith plus Works. I think he’s just has such an evangelistic heart for the simplicity of the Gospel. When he lays out how we are sinners in need and Jesus. And we put our faith in him, we are baptized, and we go on our way “trying to to good.” Everytime I hear Phil talk about works, he always, always says “try to do good” not “you must do good” he always says “try” and he has said we may fail, he admits he did a bit earlier on as a believer. But, he still pursued Christ, and kept trying. So, just from what I hear, nothing he’s said has felt like faith plus works. More like saved by Grace, and because of the change in your heart, you’ll see the goodness of Christ start to permeate from you by the Spirit. But, if you stumble Jesus is your advocate to the Father. That’s just my opinion from listening.
Odd... I've gone to COC for decades and have never heard these tenets. I know I wasn't born perfect. But Jesus, my Lord and Savior said people had to be baptized for the forgiveness of sin, so that settles it for me. I can't earn my salvation through works... I'll never be good enough on my own.
I was in the CoC for over 30+years and thought the same way you have expressed, because I didn't realize what I was really being taught to believe, and the serious implications of those beliefs, until the Lord saved me. For instance, although our “second laws of pardon” were conditioned upon our own works, the CoC claimed that these works were exempt from Paul’s condemnation of works salvation, because they were supposedly works of a different category….those that baptism had made acceptable for salvation. The CoC would also elusively dodge Paul’s condemnation of works salvation by giving lip service to the fact that one couldn’t earn salvation. But what was really meant was that one could not initially earn salvation, for one could not lay the sacramental groundwork for salvation, which Jesus supposedly did when He instituted baptism. But after baptism, “works” of repentance, faith, etc….could be meritorious, for they were now “baptized works,” acceptable for meriting or earning salvation. So, the gist was that one couldn’t earn salvation by works…until after baptism, which was still a salvation by works… just misleadingly worded different.
The explanation given in the churches I attended is that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in Acts were miraculous, and that since then miracles have ceased. So now you have to receive the Holy Spirit in a non-miraculous way. (sic)
@V.H. Mizzell I was recently kicked out of a chat room because I refused to believe that the gifts had ceased. I never knew what denomination/belief system the group predominantly identified with, but CoC would make sense (int’l or otherwise). I thought that to be such a strange sticking point for them.
I think the best refutation on baptismal regeneration is when Paul admonishes the pharisees about circucumcision. It's almost a exact analogy of salvation via water baptism because Paul states that the act it self is not as important as the change in the person which breaks down the soteriology of the sacrament of water baptism. Read Colossians 2:6-15 then Romans 4:1-13 then finally Romans 2:17-29. Becomes pretty clear what Paul is saying here. It's so beautiful. I do want to be forth coming. I have been struggling with sin so I don't want it to look like I'm working this doctrine out perfectly in my life but I pray I can add to anyone's understanding. Cheers
Guys…whoa..I can’t believe you just posted this video. I just moved to Tennessee and have been looking for a church for several weeks. Down the street is a church of Christ and I decided to stop in as I don’t know much about them. two red flags that went up immediately after meeting the pastor… Doctrine of election and salvation! This could not have been a more timely podcast so thank you very much for doing what you do!
the guy in the Middle twisted and distorted what the coC teach so much I can barely find any truth in what he claimed the coC teach. Although it is possible some coC may teach that distorted truth. Because I do know many teach things so far from the truth I will not visit that specific congregation again.
how about this Eph 2.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. Some of the questions we need to focus on is 1) what is grace and mercy since they are linked together 2) what is faith (belief) & what is involved in this to have a saving faith (belief) 3) at what point in one's growth in one's faith is one saved 1) what is grace? God giving something we do not deserve. God Forgave us of our sins. Does not contain all aspects of grace what is mercy? God not giving us something we deserve wages of sin is death. God us his son to die on the cross to pay the price for our sins. Does not contain all aspects of mercy 2) what is faith (one's belief) John 3.16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life by this passage many claim that Belief in Jesus is just a mental acknowledgement of Jesus and nothing else. But is this Correct? John 3.19-21 due to time, I'll focus on vs 21 But >>whoever does what is true >his works> whoever does the will
@@jayu2551 You are correct. I'm not questioning that he went to some church of Christ somewhere. I'm sure he told the truth about that. But when he started offering his idea about "what the church of Christ people would say", I had never heard any of it. And he had the nasty (and probably) sinful habit of purposefully misdefining Greek words. It's either that - or he's just stupid and doesn't know how to use a lexicon. How he got involved with a group like this is beyond me.
I'm not COC but I want to point out that when they start talking about being born in sin at ~22 min they don't see that the Bible doesn't teach that we are born sinful. This too is a church tradition that started with Augustine. Prior to Augustine no one taught that were born guilt of Adam's sin (federal headship is a man-made doctrine) or that we inherited sin. All of that was a new idea introduced by Augustine. Instead what was taught was that sin was introduced into the world and it has a corrupting effect on us which is why all people physically die but Adam's sin and the guilt of it was not transferred to his descendants. Even God points this out in Ezekiel 18 - children are not guilty of their father's sin. However, all WILL eventually sin: "if anyone says that they haven't sinned they are a liar. Regarding losing salvation, it is the Calvinist doctrine that causes christians to reject what the Bible plainly states. There are so many verses that plainly state that truly born-again believers can walk away from Jesus and lose out on eternal life. It is the Calvinist that is not accepting all that the Bible states but will instead explain away what it states so as to keep their doctrine. Here is just one example from Hebrews 3:12 - "Take heed BRETHERN...in DEPARTING FROM the living God." He is talking to actual believers - there is not hint that he is referring to false believers - and secondly a false believer or any unbeliever cannot DEPART FROM God. You can't depart from something that you were never a part of. If you look at baptism, it is that bible that plainly states that a person has to be baptized FOR the remission of sin. It plainly states this in multiple locations, here is just one: Peter - "Repent and BE baptized every one of you ...FOR the remission of sins..." And then they went and got baptized. He told them what they had to do for the forgiveness of their sin and they went and did it. later in the video they go to Acts 2 but never explain what they think Peter meant by be baptized for the remission of sins and they don't point out how the people actually went and were baptized. It seems like the entire crowd misunderstood Peter when he said be baptized...oh wait they actually believed what he said and went and were baptized. Regarding Psalm 51 we know that David is speaking metaphorically because in verse 4 he states that he sinned against God and God alone. Didn't he sin against Bathsheba? Didn't he sin against Uriah? Didn't he sin against Israel by betraying their trust? Then two verses later he states that he can be spiritually healed by a hyssop plant. Are we to believe that a hyssop plant can heal us spiritually?! He's obviously speaking metaphorically. Verse 5 is right in the middle between these two. David is not teaching doctrine in verse 5 but writing poetically regarding the severity of his sin. Calvinists do no differently than the COC - they teach doctrines that they are told are supported by the Bible but really are a result of the twisting of the Bible that was brought in by Augustine or the Reformers but didn't exist within the church prior to either...however, their teaching did exist within the pagan realm of gnosticism and stoicism, which Augustine was part of prior to being a christian. Calvinists just tend to be ignorant of church history prior to Augustine.
Please try to lay aside whatever qualms you have with what you call Calvinism, and actually engage the Scriptures, in context. After all, Romans 5, for instance, was written way before Augustine ever came along. People can try to disprove God's Word by calling it Calvinism all day long, but despite such desperate attempts, sacred Scripture is still set in stone and cannot be broken. Although Pelagian cults, such as the CoC, will acknowledge Bible passages that declare sin is not imputed where there’s no law, they will twist them to their own destruction, by suggesting that Adam’s sin could not have been imputed to the entire human race because God’s law hadn’t been set in stone yet. However, they fail to realize the blatantly obvious fact that sin WAS imputed to Adam, which happens to be irrefutable, biblical proof that there WAS indeed a rule of righteousness to be obeyed, even BEFORE God’s written law ever came about (e.g. Rom. 3:31; 4:15 and 5:13). Therefore, the fact that sin WAS imputed to humanity’s representative head, despite there being no written law, further proves and clarifies Apostle Paul’s point that Adam’s sin WAS imputed to all of his posterity. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Rom. 5:12). Adam’s sin guilt was imputed to all mankind, or else we wouldn’t have needed for it, and our own personal sin guilt, to be imputed to Jesus at the cross. And, this very same principle reveals to us why we desperately need Jesus’ righteousness imputed to our account, in order for the imputation of Adam’s sin guilt, and our own personal sin guilt, to be cancelled out. If there was no inherited sin guilt in Adam, then why would there be a need for us to be in Christ in order to escape condemnation (Rom. 8:1)? We will be waiting patiently for your answer.
NOWHERE does Christ or his apostles say any ONE THING saves us "ALONE". You ADD to God's word by saying "ALONE". Do an honest search into this and you will clearly see that it is a combination of things that works to saves us. Grace, faith, and obedience to his will are ALL said to save us. Repentance is said to save us. Calling on the name of the Lord is said to save us. Baptism is said to save us. Now you read for yourself and see if it says any of these ALONE saves us. The bible explicitly says THEY ALL DO. I take the word of Christ and his apostles as a whole and not as isolated passages competing against each other but working with each other to explain the awesome salvation/justification and our response to God's scheme of redemption. God is the only righteous judge and we should leave the rest up to him. Stop adding or taking away from his word people! I say this in the love of Christ.
@@Nicholas-Michael The CoC teaches that faith + works = justification The Bible teaches that true faith = justification + works There's an eternal difference between the two.
Nowhere in the bible does it say all those things have to be done in conjunction to be saved either. Sounds like the works of pharisees to suggest it. I do wonder if there are levels of importance though. Surely faith supersedes immersion by water
I have also never heard anyone say that a baptism didn’t take. That doesn’t even make sense. I do however know people who have been re-baptized when they believe they were baptized for the wrong reason
And the wrong reason to be baptized is when one attempts to make use of a sacrament to save oneself. If one is baptized in order to get saved, then it becomes an impure, meaningless and defiled work of the flesh that God has no part in. An unregenerate act that attempts to appease God’s wrath, instead of believing Jesus has already done that for us, becomes a witness against us. So unless God first purifies our hearts by faith, nothing we do will be pure in His sight (Titus 1:15). It is dangerous ground when one tries to go through an outward performance in order to try to bribe God into saving them, for that is an abomination to Him!
The more I read of your comments the more I have to believe you do not have a grasp on the COC teachings or you are part of a rouge group that doesn’t adhere to the teachings of any COC I know of. The correct reasons to be baptized is simply and well laid out in scripture. You have to explain away baptism in every other faith. Jesus himself commanded it in the great commission. We are baptized into one body not baptized into membership of the baptist or Methodist or any other denomination. Baptized into Christ.
@@nickrussell8029 who cares about the nutty COC teaching. Care about the true Gospel. Repent and be converted and stop making asinine arguments that show no fruits of salvation.
@@this9128 your statement is conjecture. I could say the same in reference to your beliefs. Consider practicing humility or do you not believe in that either?
Baptism is a beautiful, symbolic ordinance to be once enjoyed by all who believe in the sufficiency of Jesus’ perfect sacrifice. Whereas those who say it’s a requirement for salvation, mar its beauty by implying His grace and sacrifice wasn’t enough. Therefore, the person going through the ordinances must know and believe beyond all shadow of a doubt that their salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus’ perfect righteousness alone as their only hope of God’s acceptance, or else the ordinance becomes a witness against them.
I was raised in COC, but I never believed they were right, they have brainwashed themselves by saying they are the only ones going to heaven, that makes them to be righteous over everyone, my grandparents were the most Godly ppl that lived, but the COC said they were going to hell because they were not COC, that burned me from them, they believe that believing is a work, I told brother that I can do nothing for my salvation because faith comes my believing through faith, they only read the Bible by how they believe not how it's written, they like to pick verses out of context to prove their beliefs, 1 John 5:13 we can know we have eternal life because we know who we believed in! Enjoyed your podcast 👍
I am a preacher at a church of Christ. The majority of what I have been seeing in the comments revolves around a guilt of not doing enough or not being righteous enough for God. I'm truly sorry you have felt this way and can confirm it is a legitimate problem in the COC. This is because they have a very bad understanding of the Biblical doctrine of Justification. They are either ignorant of it or they are afraid that the imputed righteousness takes away from their obedience. When problems with understanding Justification are present, the whole church suffers. Traditionally, the COC has rejected the imputed righteousness of Christ. I recently took it apon myself to write a book called Christ, Our Righteousness, Rediscovering The Doctrine of Justification. When it comes out I am hoping to make many people wake up and find true peace with God even though I've already gotten pushback. I'm a nobody, but if I can help then I will. Please pray they are receptive of it when it comes out later 2021 or early 2022.
If you are a preacher in the church of a Christ, why do you sound so distant and separate from them in your references to “ they”. It makes it sound like you do not consider yourself to be part of “they”.
@@wtillett243 I do consider myself to be a part. The "they" was just a way to distinguish between those who believe all of Justification and those who have a hard time accepting it. Poor choice of words on my part.
Being a member of a church of Christ I can say I personally was very confused by the views given by the man who was former a member of the churches of Christ. I hadn’t heard of most these views. I’ve lived in Oklahoma by whole life and went to church there since being a Christian. I’ve visited churches in Arkansas, Texas, Florida, and South Carolina. One cup, non-institutional, no class, and cups churches and never encountered 90% of what was said in any of them. (No saying it doesn’t represent well the views of some churches, I just haven’t spoken with any or read any material from any of them that this represents well.) I love the podcast and I was excited to hear y’all’s thoughts. It was refreshing to see that y’all considered the Way a cult. It is only consistant. I am constantly confused by people thinking we are the same faith with such big theological differences between us. I was raised Southern Baptist and most of them think we still are. It’s a sign of the times I guess, thinking so little of truth. Thanks for your time! May we all find unity of the Faith!
Idk where you are in Oklahoma but if you are near the OKC metro I would encourage you to visit the Spencer COC. Pastor Davis will blow your mind with his depth of knowledge.
1 Corinthians 1:14 “I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;” “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”Psalms 51:5 We are born with a sin nature
My mom's side of the family is church of Christ. This will be interesting to hear. I've had quite close interaction and some attendance for obvious reasons.
I was approached by guy that said he went to a church of Christ in my area while I was out with my family doing some Christmas shopping tonight. He asked if I would be interested in coming to a Bible study. I said sure and he proceeded to say that he would like to get my number so he could contact me and that I could come over to his house sometime to have dinner with him and his wife. I have never looked into that church before but as soon as I got home I did some researching and saw a bunch of red flags. I had to come over and see what the awesome people at Apologia had to say about it all. I saw online that the church of Christ is anti-calvanist and me I am pro-calvanist..
“Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.” Ezekiel 36:25
Interesting episode. I can definitely see how those arguments would work against those steeped in Church of Christ teachings. However, none of those arguments invalidate or cause any issue for those who believe in baptismal regeneration. I applaud your work in bringing people out of the terrible system of works righteousness the CoC puts people under.
@@tomcollins3972 Yes, I read the Bible. It plainly and clearly teaches the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. From the beginning of Christian history Christians have always believed in baptismal regeneration because the text clearly teaches it. The text is so clear concerning baptismal regeneration that zero writings exist speaking against it for the first 1500 years of Christendom.
Into what church were believers added (Acts 2:47) after being baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27)? The Church of Christ (Romans 16:16). ♥️ Jesus is not coming back for multiple churches that teach different doctrines and false plans of salvation (Galatians 1:8). He is not a polygamist. He is coming back for His one Bride. 💜 There is no authority for denominations in Scripture (division). All who die in a denomination die in a lost condition. He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.” Matthew 15:13
@@tomcollins3972 Into what church were believers added (Acts 2:47) after being baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27)? The Church of Christ (Romans 16:16). ♥️ Jesus is not coming back for multiple churches that teach different doctrines and false plans of salvation (Galatians 1:8). He is not a polygamist. He is coming back for His one Bride. 💜 There is no authority for denominations in Scripture (division). All who die in a denomination die in a lost condition. He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.” Matthew 15:13
I came to Christ in the church of Christ 7 and a half years ago and spent 4 years there both preaching and teaching before God took me out of that group and into Biblical Christianity. I felt like the COC wasn’t fairly represented theologically in some parts this video and because of that if I still was in the COC I wouldn’t have received the criticism given here. I praise God that He opened my eyes up to the error in the COC and got me out when He did. Where they did get it right is on how they emotionally treat people and some of their attitudes but it is a highly mixed bag in that area. I felt like they acted like the COC didn’t take scripture seriously which isn’t true at all. If you talk to someone from that group your gonna get a hit with a barrage of scripture and not always in an eisegetical way like with most cults. They try to go verse by verse through scripture and have a really high view and reverence for scripture although interpreting some very important issues in error. 19:55 on, I never once heard in my time in the Church of Christ that human beings are born perfect. The teaching was that we have a natural proclivity to sin and a nature that leads to sin but weren’t guilty until we actually sinned against God ourselves. The proof text used for that idea was Ezekiel 14:4 and 20. ““Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.” Ezekiel 18:4 “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” Ezekiel 18:20 There were other problems with how their theology was represented as well. I wouldn’t put the Church of Christ as a whole on the level of a cult like the LDS or JW or others but definitely error and in some cases can be highly cultish but the diversity is so big they’re are definitely people in it who are saved and genuine brothers and sisters in Christ mixed with some false teachers as well.
The gospel was given to me by someone from the church of Christ, and I was saved. I never heard anything like this before that they are bringing up which surprises me!
Another misunderstanding on the part of your “expert” the COC does not teach that your works can save you. I have never heard that in the dozens of COC I have attended or visited. But only that works is a manifestation of your faith. A faith without works is not faith.
I was deeply involved in the CoC for over 30 years. And sadly, it's system of works is safeguarded by theological term-twisting. Instead of being taught that Jesus satisfied God’s law perfectly on behalf of His people, it teaches that Jesus merely lowered the bar so that anyone can just slip in, as long as they just try hard enough to live up to their full potential and do the best they can. They give people a false hope that they can eventually reach a degree of righteousness that God will accept. When the truth is that the only righteousness that God will accept is the imputed righteousness of Christ. "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" (Rom. 10:3).
@@christrescuedme2182 idk who taught you that Jesus has lowered the bar but again I have never heard it presented in such a way. I have to ask if that’s is your belief then are you saying all i have to do is believe and I can live like a heathen if I choose. That’s ludicrous. I promise the COC know we are all flawed. That’s laid out in literal black and white. If expecting believers to live a faithful life makes the COC a cult then I’m proud to be a part of it. I don’t know a single person who believes their works will earn their salvation.
But if Baptism is required for salvation, that is a work. That is a thing a person must do in order to be saved. Jesus did ALL that is needed for our salvation. It's a gift of grace offered to all. We just have to accept it. Anything else we do is not required for salvation but done to please/serve/obey God.
I’m afraid you guys are way too kind here. I can’t speak for all of them, but the ones I knew in my 37 years of attendance (including their private school), blaspheme the Holy Spirit & deny the diety of Christ. They ARE today’s Pharisees, knowing everything, but knowing nothing.
Thanks for all you shared. I have a CoC friend and wanted to learn more about what the church teaches and came across your CZcams video. I think the speakers brought out the points of error in a gracious but truthful way. Thank you for your ministry. May the Lord help us to minister to those who believe in false teachings!
@@christrescuedme2182 Yes. Because we are commanded to over and over, we see the examples of that in every conversion story in the Bible, and not being baptised is just spitting in God's face through disobedience.
I thought the Church of Christ was a soul winning denomination. They are saved born again believers and that’s all that matters. To label them a “cult” would be far fetched.
@@christrescuedme2182 Sorry but this is a totally false statement. If you follow the requirements to become a member of Christs' church the one spoken about in the NT, then d you can know you are saved because you know you have been to the "Church", The Called OUT", The "SAVED". there is no question about not knowing whether you are saved or not.
@@bigzachus I went to a Church of Christ Bible study for an entire summer and I've dialogued with several friends from various Churches of Christ about these issues. I can assure you, what he said in the video is accurate. Maybe not for your particular congregation, but in general, this is what your denomination teaches with few exceptions.
I really enjoyed how the podcasters used proof texts to say everyone else is wrong and bad (and in a cult) because they (the other groups) use proof texts to say everyone else is wrong.
And I keep hearing them talk about the church saying they have some kind of “special knowledge”. “Truth was lost and and the church of Christ found it”. Can someone link someone saying that?
@@arcticfox2639 Thank you. I really needed some encouragement. This battle has really been taking its toll on me. Your prayers would also be greatly appreciated. Time seems to be running out for me to reach my CoC people.
@@christrescuedme2182 Some of my friends and family are still in that church. I love them so much, but the brainwashing is so extreme that it is impossible to break through to them. I just pray that God will break through their programming. It is so comforting for these people to believe that salvation is in their own hands so they can control it. But then, they cannot say they are sure that they're even saved!! Some of my family became atheists and others just became worldly and gave up on spirituality altogether. Praise God, my mother, who was CoC for 50 years came to understand the gospel! I rejoice in this! I do believe some members in the CoC are saved, because they understand that it is not works that save them. Many of the hymns they sing teach truth, like: "What can wash away my sins?.... nothing but the blood of Jesus!" These types of hymns are gospel messages that they accept. Keep praying and I will include you and your loved ones in my prayers. I will do this. Pray for me also. God bless you!
The guy who said "you shouldn't be against abortion " is so far off. Abortion is murder, so any faithful church member must be against murder. While the murdered baby is going straight to paradise, the immoral act is condemned.
CoC's falsely teach that one must obey their water gospel once one has reached the mystical “age of accountability" (an Arminian doctrine found nowhere in Scripture and a culprit as to why some murder their children before they reach that “socially designated age,” thinking that will assure them salvation).
@@masonskaggs1711 I don’t believe they do but I wouldn’t be able to make a good argument either way because I don’t think scripture is clear. I only know God is sovereign, just and good.
@@guessable What about when Jesus tells the disciples to not shew away the children "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
@@edshepherd3291 that’s doesn’t mean the child is sinless. In the verse after He is clear that the Kingdom is theirs because of their faith, not because of what they have done.
Being a lifelong member of the CoC, I can tell you there are vast degrees of doctrine amongst the body. I personally hold many these three gentlemen hold. Many CoCs are moving in the right direction, but there are some extreme views (cultist) still out there. I just want to be sure all of us are not lumped into the same extreme version.
If you are more strict more conservative Bible believer then you are the cult to the loose or the liberal. O.K. I am your cult but I am safe and I am right. Agape
Does it concern you that you've been unable to biblically reconcile the CoC's "new terms of salvation" with Hebrews 4:2, which reveals that the gospel in the Old Testament is the SAME GOSPEL of the New Testament?
@@christrescuedme2182 You tell us. I know you're not much on answering questions, but a pro at copying and pasting. Was the thief on the cross baptized? You don't know! Was the thief on the cross a back-slidden follower of John? You don't know! Was he even a back-slidden follower of Christ? You don't know! Can you - today - be saved just like the thief, i. e. by believing and doing exactly the same thing(s) the thief did? Absolutely not. Very little is known about everyone's favorite thief, but we do know this: he did not believe in the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.
This is so far off what the COC is. It’s sad that others take the truth of what the Bible says and twist it into something it’s not. And what makes me so sad is so many people believe these guys and actual listen to them. 😢😢
@@christrescuedme2182 We don't know, it isn't explained in the Bible, but, it is clear that he believed that Jesus was going to establish HIS kingdom and wanted to be a part of it. This is before the establishment of what we now call His Church. We also don't know if the Thief ever heard Jesus preach over the 3 years when multitudes [thousands] of people thronged to Jesus to hear him and see his miracles performed. Jesus had the power to save and the thief professed his belief and Jesus saved him, End of Story.
@@sandragibby7611 How do you reconcile that view with what is clearly revealed in Hebrews 4:2 and its parallel passages (e.g., Isa.53:1, Jn. 12:38, Rom. 3:29-30; 10:16 and Gal. 3:6-8)?
@@christrescuedme2182 These scriptures are all speaking to the Christians except for Isaiah 53 which was a prophecy about Jesus. John was speaking about the belief and unbelief of the Christians and how easily they were swayed back to the Jewish traditions. Galatians was also speaking to the Christians in Galatia about their being '"bewitched" and going back to their prior beliefs. Vs 8 speaks about God justifying the Heathens/Gentiles. "all nations shall be blessed" Romans 3 also says that God would be including the Gentiles and the works of the "Law" will be abolished. Those would be the 613 laws that were imposed on the Jews and are still in place today. Those are the "works" that are of no use then or today. I don't see how these verses have anything to do with the Thief on the Cross, but I was happy to provide my explanation of the verses.
@@sandragibby7611 It seems that you've completely misunderstood the question. Again, carefully notice how Isaiah, John and Paul revealed that the report of Isaiah 53 was nothing less than the pure and unadulterated gospel of Jesus Christ. They never added baptism or any other works into the equation of salvation, for the gospel message does not include the actions of man (1 Cor. 1:17). The sum and substance of the entire gospel is simply Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2), nothing more, nothing less. This was further confirmed by Jesus’ resurrection, which was also founded upon His death (Heb. 13:20). Scripture makes it clear that to obey the gospel is to believe the gospel (Rom. 10:16). For the gospel is all about the Person and work of Jesus Christ, which can only be spiritually apprehended by God’s free gift of saving faith (Eph. 2:8-9). These truths confirm that the TRUE GOSPEL was preached long BEFORE Pentecost (Gen. 3:15, Mk. 1:1-2, Acts 8:32-35, Rom. 3:29-30, 1 Cor. 10:3-4, Gal. 3:6-8, Heb. 4:2; 9:15; 10:1-4). These truths also disprove the CoC’s baptismal regeneration interpretation of its isolated proof-texts (Mt. 28:19, Mk. 16:16, Jn. 3:5, Acts 2:38; 22:16, Rom. 6:3-4, Gal. 3:27, Col. 2:12, Tit. 3:5, 1 Pet. 3:21). New Testament ordinances NEVER meant new terms of salvation. Changes in dispensational covenants, and their different modes of regulation, have NEVER meant changes in God’s eternal plan of redemption. A New Covenant has NEVER meant a new gospel, but only a fuller revelation of the SAME GOSPEL, for it transcends any given dispensation, as those verses confirm. Therefore, what was the ONLY GOSPEL that the thief on the cross could have ever possibly obeyed?
I was church of Christ as a child and went to a church of Christ college. I was a member from 1985 ish, until 2002. Let's just say that I am glad I am out.
After I got saved, despite myself, I just wanted to get baptized somewhere. Neighbors are CofC preachers and invited me to church. Dude I could tell you some stuff, very conservative small town Kentucky. They would never believe my testimony and they don’t care. I escaped. They sucked the joy right out of me. And yet of course I still love them. I am sad for them. And I am only not shunned completely because they are my neighbors. But for the most part they despise reformed theology which I found after, oh I dunno, reading the Bible 😆
I can totally relate to what you are saying. I was in the CoC's in Kentucky for over 30 years. After I was saved I was disowned and disinherited by my whole family. We are so infested with CoC's here, and they've even infiltrated other denominations here with their heresies. So it is so very difficult to live around such hostility coming from those who hate the true gospel of God's grace.
Well communicated. Spent many years in the Church of Christ community. A lot of good Jesus believing folk but doctrine is synonymous with theology which allows accentuation on the some while ignoring the whole.
@Yvonne They told me God couldn't hear my prayers until after I got baptized. That might explain their attitude, partially. Of course I knew that was completely wrong. I wanted to tell them what happened, my testimony, but it was obvious they couldn't care less.
So, is this specifically about the Boston Movement, or not? I realize they’re very similar, especially in the only church going to heaven, but I never knew that the Boston Movement taught “born perfect.” I’m not trying to split hairs, just want to know what we’re talking about. I went to a Boston Movement CoC in Indianapolis in the early 90’s.
@@HoytRoberson your pagan magic water ritual won't save you only God saves. Im sorry you need externalism because you lack the Spirit :(, praying that changes. The best gift ever
@@PurePuritan apparently, you haven't read your Bible. Baptism was normative in coming to God and is described as both saving and resulting in being raised with Christ. Hoping you learn how to read one of these days.
@@PurePuritan people received the Spirit - at least manifestations of it - in the NT. So what - assuming you actually did? Please do some actual exegesis of the practice of baptism as it is discussed in the NT. Then come back and we'll see if you learned anything.
I'm somewhat newly reformed and I would like some clarification. It sounded like they almost said that "baptism now saves", 1 Peter 3:21, but didn't. I been reading it real slowly, and cannot see how it does not save.
Baptism does not "save" as in it doesn't provide justification for you before God. Salvation (as expressed in the reformed faith) is clearly by grace through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). Baptism is simply a sign of outward obedience as well as being included in the covenant community.
In 1 Peter 3:20, Noah’s family was “saved by water” only in the sense that the reality of their salvation became obvious through the trial of water, for they were enabled by God to pass safely through the destructive waters by being in the Ark, which represented Christ. The word “by” in this verse is translated “through” in the original Greek. The water itself was a means of God’s judgment, not a means of salvation.
I think the parenthetical statement clarifies this. Here's the verse using the NKJV: "There is also an antitype which now saves us-baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Do you see how that parenthetical statement reveals that baptism is linked to the "good answer" of one's heart towards God in faith?
@@lai_strength_training by saying baptism is “simply” a sign of outward obedience as well as being part of the covenant “community” suggests we have a choice of outward obedience and being joined with the covenant. Faith is that power that gives us the ability to “obey from the heart” that form of doctrine that was delivered to you. Baptism cannot be excluded from the doctrine that was handed down. And since we obey from the heart, it is more than an outward sign. It involves every part of us and the Holy Spirit is involved as well. Nothing physical about it except that we submit as we are buried.
@@aaronbeverly4711 The assumption in the CoC was that a physical coming to the front of the church, to soothe a guilty conscience, was automatically equivalent to a spiritual coming to Christ. This was due to an extreme emphasis placed on the will of man, and the idea that man’s choice has the final say as to whether one is saved or not. Once Jesus reveals Himself to one's heart and mind, they are finally able to apprehend the gospel of His grace, by faith. Then their conscience is finally purged from dead works so that one can then serve the living God (Heb. 9:14). One must first be justified by faith, then and only then can they begin the process of sanctification. And baptism is often, but not always, one of the first fruits of sanctification. Sadly, the CoC confuses justification and sanctification, just as Romanism does. And for them to put the cart before the horse is to glorify man and his works, rather than God alone. “God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.” (Gal. 6:14). The heart (which is the seat of our conscience, thoughts, emotions and choices), must be made anew by a supernatural act of God, due to the effects of being spiritually deadened by sin. Although we don’t have the ability to do this ourselves, it does not excuse us from being responsible toward God, for we are still fully conscious, self-aware and actively rebellious. He does not lower His standard just because we are fallen. This is why we need the Savior, Who lived up to God’s perfect standard of righteousness perfectly. I hope this helps. God bless.
You guys are not helping people here but deceiving them in false analysis! I'm quite sure that most of you that left the Church of Christ weren't regularly attending the assembly and so you probably don't have a clear understanding of what the Bible calls “THE TRUTH!”
I was a member of the international church of christ in Manchester England. They told us that they was the only people saved and leaving them is leaving God. They also appointed a discipler who pried into every aspect of your life and reported on you to the ministry. They also directed your life and told you where to work , study , live etc.
@@carterbaker9176 The international church of christ was founded by Kip mc Kean from California. He had been a lifelong member of the church of christ in USA and he split from them to be a leader of his own cult.
Do you happen to know if the Fellowship of Churches of Christ is the same thing? My local church is part of this group and I'm debating whether it's worth attending or not?
Psalm 51. David is only talking about 𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗼𝘄𝗻 𝘀𝗶𝗻. There is not one iota or mention of “original” or inherited sin. This Hebrew poetical writing is called 𝙝𝙮𝙥𝙚𝙧𝙗𝙤𝙡𝙚. It’s not literal, it’s 𝙛𝙞𝙜𝙪𝙧𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙫𝙚. Note: “Blot out 𝗠𝗬 transgression” (vs. 1); “Wash 𝗠𝗘 thoroughly from 𝗠𝗬 iniquity, and cleanse 𝗠𝗘 from 𝗠𝗬 sin” (vs. 2); “ 𝗜 acknowledge 𝗠𝗬 transgressions, and 𝗠𝗬 sin is always before 𝗠𝗘” (vs. 3); “Against You, You only, 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗜 sinned” (vs. 4); etc. There is not even the slightest allusion to some kind of original sin. In fact, it was from his own sin and transgression that the psalmist desired to be freed.
@@christrescuedme2182 You know the answer to that. We were all made in God's image which is pure which means we are not born sinful or corrupted. Corruption comes from a personal choice of sin and that's explained in both covenants
This isn't representative of the churches of Christ I've interacted with _at all._ You do have to be careful not to extrapolate too much your experiences, depending on how many churches you've engaged with. The churches of Christ, isofar as they are bound together _at all,_ are only bound together by a belief that Christians shouldn't have any denomination smaller than "Christian," and that the Bible is the guide for how things ought to be done. You also have to be wary that there are churches that could be considered "fundamentalist" that mainline churches typically refer to as "anti-churches" (though anti-churches would consider that a pejorative). These churches tend to have a works focus, and don't allow kitchens in their buildings, or age-divided Sunday School, or church camps, or missions (or anything else that would involve coordination with other churches or the outside world). They are the churches that are _most_ likely to not even have an identifying street or city in the name of their church. Just "CHURCH OF CHRIST" on the building. The International Church of Christ is also a totally separate entity, and I'd honestly say more reminiscent of Mormons, JWs, etc. It has an odd emphasis on "recruiting" people for conversion. Almost like an MLM, and definitely kind of on the cult.
I've been struggling to understand hereditary original sin, and this discussion didn't help at all. How can you be a sinner without having sinned? How can you sin without being a moral agent? I totally agree that babies are born with a propensity towards sin, but that's not the same as sinning. If you guys are saying that faith in Christ is necessary to be saved, and that we are born as sinners, then every single baby who dies must be in hell. Do you really accept that?
Although babies are innocent of volitional sin (Jer. 2:34), they have inherent sin, or else no babies would ever die. “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 6:23). We are all are born guilty of Adam’s sin, not just our own sinning. This is why Jesus “shall save His people from their sins” (Mt. 1:21). He only saves sinners, the ungodly….those without any spiritual strength or power of their own (Rom. 5:6). We are all born with a fallen, creaturely will that’s in bondage to sin, because Adams sin was imputed to us, for he was humanity’s federal head (Rom. 5:12, 19). So we are not born sinless or neutral. Yet, if the CoC was right, and babies are born without sin, then that would mean Heaven is full of those whom Jesus never died for....because He only died for sinners. So the CoC is actually the one disqualifying babies from heaven, because the only humans in heaven are those whom Jesus has saved from sin.
Yes thank you for pointing this out. Also, according to Calvinism, it is not only true that these babies go to hell, but it is Gods Sovereign will that that happens. The god of Calvinism is also responsible for all sin, since it is his "hidden" or "secret" will (including abortion). So all you have to ask a calvinist is "Is it God's will that babies are aborted?" If they are consistent in their theology, they have to say yes. Thankfully most aren't that hardcore, but i think many think calvinism just entails God being sovereign and dont want to say otherwise at the risk of blaspheming. The irony is: This is yet an example of the very thing they are attempting to preach against. EVERY different sect of Christianity believes they have the whole Bible exegeted (sp?) perfectly. Sorry reformation cultists - we all have something wrong. 🤷♀️ Go check out Jesse Morrell on Open Theism, the Atonement and why Calvinism is actually derived from gnosticism (another irony since they referred to this very cult in this video). He may not have all the answers- but i was about sold on apologia and the calvinist stance until I came across his stuff. I still think they are doing some good things with End Abortion Now and have gotten a lot out of some of their sermons (like on baptism and proper exegesis of Matthew 24/Daniel 9 - which agrees with the CoC btw!) But the doctrines of grace/calvinist stuff falls apart under heavy scrutiny. We all have to be stripped of what we uphold as inerrant doctrines and the traditions with which we've been raised. The True Church will be built of many members of all sorts of different congregations- all of which had people sitting nearby in pews who weren't really saved. You can know God and Christ and the Spirit because of and/or in spite of your surroundings.
@@chelseabarker2250 not true, we believe Jesus grace covers before a certain level of accountability. But whatever makes you feel better about having a man centered theology
@@PurePuritan I'm not sure what you mean but sounds inconsistent with calvinism - which I'm okay with. And the man centered thing give me a break theres not a christian alive who believes they are saving themselves whether they believe in faulty calvinism or not. I dont like that phrase being thrown around. Its a lot like a woke person trying to end the conversation on "you're just a racist!" It's divisive so I would recommend not parroting james white and the rest who cant defend their own theology because its actually false unbeknownst to most of its followers. But like you said there is accountability. On our part. We have conditional security - its salvation on Gods terms. So long as we are IN Christ we are saved.. the same way that Noah was ON the ark so he was saved. If he wouldn't have been on the ark he would have perished with the rest of the world. If we aren't in Christ we will too. Its not a one time decision. We must stay on the boat till we die. Blessings!
I don’t know if the owners of this channel have control over it, but there are so many ads on this video that I can hardly watch it. And some of the ads are not exactly moral. That being said, thank you for this video. I have learned a lot. I have friends in the church of Christ and now I understand why they are always pushing me to believe the way they do and seem so worried that I’m going to hell.
The creators chose to monetize or not. CZcams determines the ads. Even if the creator choses not to monetize ie. profit from the ads CZcams will still run ads and keep all the advertising money for themselves. There are ways to avoid the ads that involve changing the speed the video plays at or fast forwarding then rewinding the video. Personally I let the video play through and hopefully who Im supporting gets some ad money. I can just turn down the volume for the ads. If ungodly companies wind up paying to spread the Gospel well then the jokes on them, Im not buying their junk no matter how much money the spend trying to manipulate me.
I'm a member of the Church of Christ and i need to preface by saying im not trying to be disrespectful or offensive, because the video and the people in it are not trying to be disrespectful nor offensive but it seems like some of the things we teach or believe is a little misunderstood by the guys in this podcast. I just started the video. I havent reached very far but so far i can say we dont think that we are protestant evangelists, we also don't believe thats salvation is through works we believe that if you love God you would obey him and do what he wants you to do, if you fail to do what he wants you to do thats ok you asl for forgiveness and you try to do better going forward but in general if you love him you'll try to live to please him, so we teach the way the bible tells us to please him so that you know how to please him because ypu love him. (I hope that makes sense) And the opposite is true if we dont believe in nor love him then we dont care about what pleases him we just do our own thing whether our own thing seems to be "good" or "bad" Also there was a question asked about why teach kids tin Sunday school even if they are born sinless we have to teach kids how to be good because eventually they will start to be conscious and think for themselves we need to make sure that when that happens they have a firm foundation of God and the gospel so that they can continue to grow that way, instead of being left to their own devices. We have to teach them how to make good choices, we have to teach them their origin (Genesis) amd their goal (serving God and not ourselves, and Heaven).
Thanks for sharing. I understand what you're saying, especially about feeling misunderstood, for I was in the CoC myself for over 30+years. The confusion is often due to an overarching assumption in the CoC concerning all the Bible passages that have to do with man's works of obedience. The CoC promotes those passages as a "prescription" for salvation, rather than a "description" of how a truly saved person will live to obey God in virtue of their eternal union with Christ.
I have a friend who has attended Church of Christ churches for most of her adult life.She has always claimed to me that she doesn't believe everything they teach i.e. that you have to be baptized to be saved.But after watching this I'm thinking I need to talk to her more about what she is hearing from the pulpit in her church and how much of possible wrong teaching she has been absorbing.This was a GREAT episode.
@@poseyperspective3591 Wow. If people can get their best CoC theology from the duck, duck, goose gurus, that pretty much says it all! Lol I watched the "unashamed" podcast on the one where Phil met with the Pope's emissary. VERY informative. Phil even admitted they were both preaching the same "gospel." SO TRUE!!... (baptismal regeneration).
study this first or after Eph 2.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. Some of the questions we need to focus on is 1) what is grace and mercy since they are linked together 2) what is faith (belief) & what is involved in this to have a saving faith (belief) 3) at what point in one's growth in one's faith is one saved 1) what is grace? God giving something we do not deserve. God Forgave us of our sins. Does not contain all aspects of grace what is mercy? God not giving us something we deserve wages of sin is death. God us his son to die on the cross to pay the price for our sins. Does not contain all aspects of mercy 2) what is faith (one's belief) John 3.16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life by this passage many claim that Belief in Jesus is just a mental acknowledgement of Jesus and nothing else. But is this Correct? John 3.19-21 due to time, I'll focus on vs 21 But >>whoever does what is true >his works> whoever does the will
If you want to hear what the Church of Christ believes, read God's Word not the doctrine of men. In other words, read your Bible and don't listen to these fellas.
@@christrescuedme2182 Any church that preaches adding anything to faith in Jesus Christ to being saved including water baptism they are teaching a false gospel.(Edit)And I know what Apologia Church believes so if you think Phil would've told a Pope's emissary that they both teach the same gospel that includes baptismal regeneration either you misunderstood what he said or you're not telling the truth.Phil would have never said that.)
Many people in this comment section rightly say that this video does not fully accurately represent the view of COC doctrines. However, I can attest that the ICOC is still alive and well, and still teaches many of the false doctrines that this video addresses. Things like being baptized in order to receive forgiveness. Things like exclusivity from other churches (remnants of "one true church" claims from the past). People are still inflicted by the law, with little knowledge of the grace of God on the cross. I just left the Boston Church of Christ after two years of attending. This church is manipulative and does not teach correct theology in many ways. Many members know this but are too scared to leave because they feel they are undereducated in the bible (the leaders have authority and people assume they understand the bible better then them) or because they've been indoctrinated to believe that other churches practice "easy believism". Decent video. Thanks for the upload.
When you guys mention Pentecostals, I know you're speaking of Oneness groups like the UPC or PAW... but please keep in mind that the VAST majority of Pentecostals worldwide are Trinitarian, and not "cultish" like the Oneness groups. Most of us believe just as you do, aside from some differences dealing with soteriology and cessationism (and like Paul, I would rather speak 5 understood words than a thousand in an unknown tongue). And just for future reference, for the love of all that's good and kind, please don't lump us in with the charismatic bunch, with their false prophecies, false teachers, flag-waving and animal noises.
Any "faith in Christ" OUTSIDE of *the accepted traditional faith" is considered a cult. Faith that does not include obedience to be saved is the key doctrine of the "cult of traditional Christianity" which ironically, puts all other beliefs in Christ in "the kingdom of the cults" because we reject their false belief that true faith "doesn't" include obedience to be saved.
So IF coc believes one is sinless before the law.. how do they respond to Cain and Abel? Or in the days of Noah , why did God destroy all mankind or the Israelites while Moses was up the mountain receiving the 10 commandments from God?
I had a CoC friend in San Antonio, who, with his wife had a great bus ministry for their church. I later was in the house of what was obviously CoC member (by literature he had). I told him about my friend’s bus ministry. His reply: bus ministries are not mentioned in the Bible!
that's them. They literally go strictly by the bible, but if they are strictly going by the bible they would sell their property and give the money to the poor. They say that's what the first century christians done. They gave their crops and livestock to church to help the poor
@@BlakeAlexander12 Church of Christ is not basically Baptist. Baptist believe in saying the Sinner's Prayer and asking Jesus into your heart as your personal savior; none of this is in the Bible. Read Acts 8:35-39 and note what needs to be done when Jesus is preached. The Baptists believe one is saved by faith only and that contradicts James 2:24 which says NOT by faith only,
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Next time do your homework . Talk to at least one or two who are truly knowledgeable about the churches of Christ. Destroy your straw man argument which no member I have ever known believes. If this had been a debate you would have been eaten alive. I COC hold a well defined pyramid chain of command which every member knows their position. They have a single head of the whole group advised by a board composed of regional church leaders. None position is chosen by the people. They broke away from the COC 30 years ago and started using instrument as a sign of having completely broken away. If those two hits represented your. knowledge of the church and worst still your knowledge of the Scriptures you would have been eaten alive in debate. Please represent those who disagree with you honestly..
The more I listen you yall, the more yall prove you all are not well educated in Scripture.
John 3:5 and the thief on the cross you mentioned, the thief KNEW of the Kingdom, thats why he said to Christ "remember me when come into your Kingdom "
John preached the Kingdom AND baptized people. So it is totally plausible for the thief to have been baptized by John, and therefore be forgiven in that fashion. Relating back to John 3:5.
This is ridiculous how yall don't even know or think these simple things through. Ask yourself, how did the thief actually know about the kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God ? He was repentant because John preached repentance, so it's evidence against your position.
Church of Christ believes that the Bible is the whole revelation of God and it doesn't need alterations or additional books, ( we use KJV mostly but all Churches of Christ are independent ) Just as any protestant church. To say that Church of Christ is a Cult just because of some difference in interpretation is so disappointing. May we find unity as Christians in Jesus
HERE IS A QUESTION.... IS CULTISH BRING PEOPLE TO KNOW GOD IS REAL AND JESUS IS THE MESSIAH, AKA THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD? its being funded by liberal plagerist of the abandoning truth inorder to find comfort of social wins for tic tok and discrediting the bible. GUESS WHAT... there is a wide road that is capturig alot of cultish watchers and people who love to feel good and believe the guy in the middle watching this video. LIKE the guy in the middle as long as you just hear good stuff and feel good about what you see your ok even when its homosexuality and all sorts of hate against straights and flagreantly apeasing how you are a good person and need to ask for things like a zombie. SECULARIZED churches want you to joel olesten everything and feel like you get rich by selfishness and pride. Like cultish they want you to go away from the church of Christ and trade Jesus chruch for church of feel good.
I am not in the 'Church of Christ' denominations but upon quick review, some of the elements you call out are COMMON things in the bible that give folks pause to consider due to wording and context and then find a need to research more about through their own journey with God through the bible. It is all of our jobs, individually to 'rightly handle the word of truth' and work out our own salvation with 'fear and trembling.' Two out of the three podcasts I've listened to you have been throwing shade at anything but 'your' brand ™ of Christianity. Christianity is not a brand. Focusing on tiny nuances of belief to attempt to amputate whole fists and calves and toes of Jesus' church is not productive. Fast forward almost 2000 years and we are all split apart, trolling facebook and social media for ways to 'catch' people in 'bad' theology. Also all your branding (for example on your twitter page, your advertisement shows people like Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Koresh and (L. Ron Hubbard?).....those are cults. Cult is a psychological and sociological term. Christian denominations who have slight to major differences in theology (than yourself) are not 'cults' and to put them in the same bucket is disingenuous and harmful.
Also your ongoing statement of 'people that believe the bible as the sole source of truth' discount history is totally false. All sorts of folks that believe the bible is the main source of truth (who don't ascribe to a human creed or confession to priests) look into church history, read works by historical Christians etc.
How about let's read the bible, love God, serve others and be a shining example to the world and peaceful and brotherly to each other? Minimally, invite someone from the denomination on to teach people the differences in interpretation and dive into the bible to see if a conclusion can be made.
And actually, after looking more into that church to support this post...this sounds like a church I would visit. Non-centralized.....focus on the bible as the common factor....the main differences (if this summary website is true) is the 'steps to salvation' and their level of 'necessary and sufficientness' although I'm sure there is variation across churches:
1. One must be properly taught, and hear (Romans 10:14-17);.
well yes, the bible speaks in Gal 1:6-8 of folks following after a different gospel. An example would be someone hearing the mormon gospel or the JW gospel. How could you disagree that you need to hear the right gospel? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (AGREE)
2. One must believe or have faith (Hebrews 11:6, Mark 16:16);
(AGREE)
3. One must repent, which means turning from one's former lifestyle and choosing God's ways (Acts 17:30);
AGREE that it's evidence of salvation (not the cause of salvation)-it's a lifetime of repentance and turning away from sin because that's what the Holy Spirit does to you after you are born again,
DON"T AGREE that unrepented sin causes you to lose your salvation like the catholics. Repentance is not a checkbox you have to do with a priest at the last minute before you die. It's more of 'evidence' and 'a process' and 'a lifestyle.' Thank God for repentance and the Holy Spirit that works to save me from this sin and flesh which so easily entangles and harms me.
4. One must confess belief that Jesus is the son of God (Acts 8:36-37);
(AGREE THAT IT'S EVIDENCE OF SALVATION TO VERBALLY CONFESS, but not necessary/sufficient for salvation to verbally confess this on point 100%, aka Peter denied Christ 3X, even the devil can quote the bible and knows that Jesus is the son of God). What a curse to deny Christ though....I pray none of us face martyrship and this fear.
AGREE that you would have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God (per point 1, 'same gospel we taught to you').....Muslims believe that Jesus exists, is holy, is annointed, but don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God. They believe he is a prophet....that's not enough for salvation.
5. One must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38);
(UNSURE if you need a ceremonial baptism, Jesus said you must be born of water and of the Spirit, but I don't read this as you must have a baptism ceremony. But this is an example where folks may read things differently. I was baptized as an adult, if my neighbor never did, that feels ridiculous that they would go to hell all else being equal (and God is not ridiculous). I would study it more if I was concerned for myself or others.
6. One must live faithfully as a Christian (1 Peter 2:9).
(AGREE as evidence....your acts and behavior are evidence, not the cause of salvation. Your salvation is from God, we didn't do anything to deserve it)
If it's true that they don't believe there is salvation outside of their brand ™ of church than I wouldn't visit. I don't see anything in their doctrine that mentions 'grace' (undeserved favor) so that's a big miss....but educate instead of calling them a 'cult.'
The baby question is also something that isn't super clear (to me) in the bible. I agree that all humans have original sin no matter how old you are. I don't agree that baptism 'saves' a baby if they are about to die (although why not just do it?). I don't believe that a baby goes to hell if they haven't been old enough to have faith. God is just. If something sounds unjust to us, then how much more can we be assured that God has a supremely just plan. For example Jesus went to the place of the dead to preach to those who haven't heard the gospel before he came (1Peter 3:18-20) so there is some kind of due process after death for those who have never been old enough to understand.
I got re-baptized, because my first baptism was into the Church of Christ. I probably didn’t really need to be be baptized again, I just felt like my baptism into the CoC was persuaded and not from the heart.
I am struggling with that right now. I was baptized into COC and have been going back and forth with whether I should be re-baptized for years
@@stephaniepierson9782you know where your heart was, and so does Jesus. I don’t think it’s necessary, it was just something I felt like I wanted to do.
I've seen several comments referring to the "Church of Christ" requiring of members using only the KJV translation. I currently attend a COC and have never been told to use a certain translation. In fact personal Bible study is very much encouraged in the COC.
Same here grew up in COC and though mainly use KJV we sometimes pull the same verses from other translations to compare and get a more thorough idea
I have a kjv Bible they didn't like it's called the companion Bible it's a real good Bible but I don't care what the coc thinks about that I'm hoping the LORD will lead me to a non denominational church that's not coc
@@harolddavis1493 I hope you find what you're looking for. I use the NASB and the Legacy Standard Bible as those are believed by many scholars and critics to be closest to the original documents although learning Koine is always going to be the best option.
These guys have no idea what the CHURCH of CHRIST believes,For one,,The COC a is not a denominational church. Christ is the head of the church,,and Christ only set up one church,,His church,,So a non denominational church has Christ as it head,,And then there are elders that over see the church as to make sure that it is following God’s word,, If you go to a Church of Christ that is not following the word of God,, then that isn’t a true Church of Christ. They only go by what the Bible says, As far as “ restoration” I don’t know about that,,There has been no new teachings ,,no new revaluations and no hidden truths brought forward . If these guys are talking about the Mormons,, or United Church of Christ ,, then they should make that clear,,Because if they don’t then they are calling a church that follows the word of God as close as humanly possible a cult.
I have heard of this belief among more hyper-conservative Churches of Christ. Usually it's the older folk.
This is all very interesting. I’ve Been COC nondenominational my entire life in a small town outside of Nashville (31 years) and the baptism part in my church is when a person is ready to be saved or ready to come to Jesus and become a Christian then they confess that Jesus is the Son of God and I personally asked for forgiveness in my heart and then I was baptized and I was baptized in the church but we’ve had several members baptized in creeks and in pools, etc. The being perfect part I have never heard of, I have always been taught by the church that we are all imperfect, and that we are all sinners. Also heard many preachers preach that salvation is not based on works but on Faith. We also believe that you are accountable and responsible for your sins alone, no body else’s and we do believe that even after baptism you need to try to not to repeat the same sins over and over and over again but if you do mess up and fall short then you just simply ask for forgiveness and try to do better. God doesn’t give up on us. Basically just have faith and do your best to be a good Christian and follow Gods word. Most kids in our congregation are baptized at a young age, (8-18 year olds) whenever they are ready to come to Jesus. Some as young as 7. We also have a lot of older people that are baptized whenever they are ready.
I was deeply entrenched in the CoC for over 30+years, until the Lord truly saved me. When I was younger, I would've probably written the exact same thing that you have.
You’re saying the “trying your best” is part of the criteria for salvation?
@christrescuedme! What was wrong with what I said, genuinely asking?
@noahcutshaw I know that I’ve been taught my entire life to do my very best, and to also know that I will fall short almost daily, but that’s why there is faith and to trust in God.
@@chelscidpfighter5980 I’m not sure if that answered the question. Was that a yes? The ungodly person who believes and does not have works is given the righteousness of Jesus by faith (Romans 4:6)
My dad was raised Church of Christ and my mom was Baptist. When he changed to Baptist, we weren’t cut off. My grandparents loved us
Glad to hear it, most of the time someone who switches will be cut off no doubt
I'm not sure this is really talking about mainline churches of Christ. And if it is, maybe it's geographically specific? Some in my family have attended churches of Christ for generations on at least 4 continents, and this podcast isn't representative of _anything_ I've experienced with the church. (Expect the two times I ended up visiting an non-cooperational* church by accident.)
* I know them as "anti-churches," and they prefer "anti-institutional" (which erroneously suggests other coCs are pro-institutional), so I used this older term that's also not offensive to identify them.
@@jacksyoutubechannel4045 Typical mainline CoC's teach salvation-by-works, particularly Baptismal Regeneration.
@@jacksyoutubechannel4045 I'm a member of the Church of Christ. Honestly, the people in the video trying to explain their thoughts on Baptism had me confused. They were saying "you don't have to be baptized to be saved, but you better do what Christ says to do, and he says to get Baptized". That makes zero sense to me. It also makes zero sense to me that it seems as though the guys in the video don't seem to believe that once you are saved you can't loose salvation. So they are saying I could be saved then at some point in the future go on a rape and murder spree, and wouldn't loose my salvation because of it (if I didn't repent)?
I've been in several Churches of Christ, and I've never once see anybody "shunned" because they fell away. I have several friends that no longer associate with the Church of Christ, I still see and talk to them regularly, and other members do also. I think it's actually often the case that the one that leaves shuns the the Church of Christ members.
I come from a church of Christ background and that’s straight up untrue.
Wonderful conversation. I was UPC, Reformed Baptist, and accompanied my wife to the church of christ for 5 years. She grew up in the church of christ. This topic is very dear to myself.
Do I Have to Be Baptized to be Saved? Aaron Gallagher & Trey Fisher Discussion on Acts 22:16czcams.com/video/emxJgszo1Lk/video.html
So she left her CoC congregation?
Very informative! I grew up with my dad's family being church of Christ (although my dad wasn't active, unlike the rest of his family), and my mother's side southern Baptist. We had to go to both churches, and it was very confusing for a kid. My dad's family were, and still are, extremely judgemental. I remember as a kid one day, at my dad's mother's house (devout church of Christ follower) was sad. I asked her why she was sad, and she said that she hated that I was going to go to hell. I loved her so much, and it scared me. I'm non denominational, and love Jesus Christ Almighty with all my heart. This occurred years ago, and I'm still not close to my dad's family. It's so sad. I pray for them. Thank you for your channel! God bless y'all!❤🙏
Whatever else we learned through this video, this guy in the middle is really sharp in the scripture! I pray that he carries on & uses it for the kingdom of God!
He's. Lying
Whatever else you learn in this video, you learn the guy in the middle cannot articulate. He uses a passage such as Abraham pleading with God for 10 righteous souls to save Sodom to show there is no one righteous. He fails to mention God saved “just Lot” and his two daughters. If Lot had converted just his family Abraham would have found his 10 and Sodom would have been spared.
I think it would be a much more productive conversation, had there been someone from the Church of Christ to discuss this, because there were many presumptions made about the beliefs of the Church of Christ that from my experience come from hearing others talk and not understanding it truly. also if a coC person has been there, I believe they would have pointed out a few parts that you guys left out. this is a fun podcast tho good job
Honestly these
guys explained
the Church of
Christ very well.
I went to
church three
times a week
for the first
twenty years
of my life.
They are do-
ing their
best, they’re
terrified of
God..
I was involved with and even an elder at a Stone Campbell Christian church for many years. They taught (and regrettably I did too) everything that Trey talked about. It was an independent Bible study that I took part in that made to question the standard CoC teaching on baptism and perseverance of the saints. Trey is spot on with everything and I appreciate his work on this.
I was raised CoC. Alot of this doesn't fit with what I was taught. I think there's probably alot of variation between individual congregations in terms of how they interpret things. (which, obviously, contradicts their claim to be sola scriptura. --really no one can be)
Severe division has always existed among CoC’s. Although they were initially established on the basis of forming unity on the “New Testament Pattern,” each group’s idea of unity had to be centered on that certain group’s interpretation of what it thought that pattern was. Because, when doctrines are built upon speculation and private interpretation, rather than absolute truth, then each group just ends up picking and choosing what it thinks will best suite the interests of that particular group.
CoC author, Leroy Garrett, even admitted in his book, "What Must the Church of Christ Do to Be Saved?"----
“We must face the fact that this tragic habit of splitting into sects and sub-sects is due largely to a faulty “Restorationist” hermeneutics, which says there is an identifiable pattern for the work and worship of the church which spells out details, which when adhered to “restores” the true church” (p. 40). “We have erred in our claim that there is a uniform pattern of organization and worship in the New Testament churches and that we have duly “restored” that pattern. This is evident in the fact that we can’t even agree among ourselves as to what that pattern requires. We have not only differed but divided over almost every aspect of the life of the church…. are we to conclude that God has given us a prescribed norm or pattern that is so obscure that we ourselves cannot make head or tail of it?” (pp. 131, 132) -- (SCMe-Prints@stone-campbell.org., ©2010). (Emphasis his)
This guy is out there with a distorted view
This is such a denominational conversation. The way they talk about the church is as if people are in leadership meeting together and deciding what is tall and each congregation and that is not at all the way it is each church is autonomous having its own elders and deacons, and if they teach and practice the same things, it’s because they’re studying from the same book.
Sadly, CoC's are all going by the same Campbellite script, NOT God's Word.
Can you explain what gospel the thief on the cross obeyed according to Hebrews 4:2?
1. The church of Christ never claims to have “secret” knowledge or that the Gospel was lost. That was a gross misrepresentation
So where was the true church for 1900 years?
@@Journey_of_Abundance it never went anywhere. It was still going strong. But certainly not in false divisions like the Presbyterians or Roman Catholics.
@@chadh.5004 there's literally no evidence of the church of Christ as you know it until the 1800s. I agree those are false divisions, by the way.
@@Journey_of_Abundance I don’t believe that just because you call yourself the church of Christ that you’re the true church either. And I also don’t think everyone that calls themselves a member will go to Heaven. Jesus said the tares would grow among the wheat. But the fact of the matter is the “Church of Christ” universal the Body of Christ is the Church Jesus built and the the church Paul speaks of when he says that the “churches of Christ” salute you.
@@chadh.5004 If your interpretation of Romans 16:16 is correct, then where did the "churches of Christ" go directly after Paul's time? The people that heard Paul preach have very different beliefs than you and the coc denomination. There's nothing factual about the church of Christ American protestant denomination being the true body of Christ
I’m about half way through this, and I promise I will finish it. But man, this is bad. Someone must have wrung your bell. This is clumsy and not put together well. If your claim to the church if Christ being cultish on the basis of he was mentored by Phil Robertson… cmon. I am all for things being investigated. Test all things. This guy does not give an honest representation of bible teaching. If you want to refute someone, you have to accurately articulate their beliefs and this video does not do it at all!
Actually, the CoC is much worse than most people realize. Eerily akin to Romanism, the CoC not only injects mysticism into baptism, it promotes it as a requirement for salvation that turns the one who administers the “requirement” into a human mediator, which is blasphemy!
There is only one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5). Only He can administer what’s necessary for us to be saved, for He has obtained our redemption and all of the spiritual blessings that accompany salvation (faith, repentance, obedience, love for God and others, etc.).
they cannot accurately refute what CoC teach. because they would condemn their beliefs. Did you notice when Acts 2.38 was read they ignored "be baptized For Forgiveness of sins" they did mentioned the promise mentioned in Acts 2.39 which is 2 fold. which is given to all repentant baptized believers will receive 1) forgiveness of sins 2) the gift of the Holy Spirit which is being sealed by the Holy Spirit Eph 1.13-14
here is what the CoC believes worded a little different than normal
Eph 2.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith.
Some of the questions we need to focus on is
1) what is grace and mercy since they are linked together
2) what is faith (belief) & what is involved in this to have a saving faith (belief)
3) at what point in one's growth in one's faith is one saved
1) what is grace? God giving something we do not deserve.
God Forgave us of our sins. Does not contain all aspects of grace
what is mercy? God not giving us something we deserve
wages of sin is death. God us his son to die on the cross to pay
the price for our sins. Does not contain all aspects of mercy
2) what is faith (one's belief)
John 3.16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
by this passage many claim that Belief in Jesus is just a mental acknowledgement of Jesus and nothing else. But is this Correct?
John 3.19-21 due to time, I'll focus on vs 21 But >>whoever does what is true >his works> whoever does the will
Notice how the CoC will always say we can't earn salvation, but that there are works that we must do in order to get saved. That is a complete contradiction! Two mutually exclusive assertions cannot possibly both be true, within the same context. So this reveals something very sinister within the CoC. Because, obviously, its leaders realize deep down that they are promoting a false gospel not represented in Scripture, or else they would not try so hard to re-define their terms and hide what is really being taught in the CoC when they are exposed.
@@christrescuedme2182 You are the one who keeps twisting things.Which one of these is a work
CoC says
1) must believe >> John 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” >>> this is God clarifying what true belief is >> those who DOES the truth >> isn't this a work
2) must repent true repentance involves a changed life style >> isn't this a work
3) be baptized >> Titus 3.5 says we are not saved by works BUT according to mercy >> what follows is not a work but telling us how to receive GOd's mercy
As a minister of the churches of Christ and preaching the gospel for over 15 years, what Trey Fisher says here about the churches of Christ is not accurate. I am watching this wondering why he is distorting what the churches of Christ teach. We believe the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We read that baptism partakes in the death and burial of Christ as noted in Romans 6:1-8 and Colossians 2:12-13 so that dying to sin and being buried in baptism we rise from baptism to walk in newness of life. Furthermore, we do believe in justification by faith believing that Jesus is Lord and that He bodily rose from the dead (Romans 4; 10:9-10). That is the life changing message that produces good works in us.
Can you please explain what gospel the thief on the cross obeyed, according to Hebrews 4:2?
Does it concern you that you've been unable to demonstrate an ability to harmonize the CoC's "new terms of salvation" with Hebrews 4:2?
@@christrescuedme2182 Hebrews 4:2 affirms as Romans 10:17 does that faith must be joined with hearing the gospel. The thief professed his faith that Jesus was innocent any wrong and that He is the Messianic King in his plea for Christ to remember Him. This was before Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection which is the saving gospel, and before Jesus's command of baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This was all before the new covenant of Christ being established through His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension to God (Heb 9:15-17).
@@Romans720 So how do you reconcile that two-gospel theory with Hebrews 4:2 and its parallel passages (e.g., Isa.53:1, Jn. 12:38, Rom. 3:29-30; 10:16 and Gal. 3:6-8)?
HINT #1: In those verses, notice that according to Isaiah, John and Paul, the “report” of Isaiah 53 was nothing less than the pure and unadulterated gospel of Jesus Christ, with nothing added to it.
Also carefully notice that Isaiah, John and Paul never equated water baptism with obeying the gospel (Rom. 10:16), because the gospel of Jesus Christ does NOT include man’s own contributions. The sum and substance of the entire gospel is simply Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2), nothing more, nothing less.
These truths not only confirm the fact that the true gospel was preached long before Pentecost, but they also further disprove the CoC’s theory of water baptism being a part of the gospel message.
I was in COC for several years and thank them for their love and fellowship. I now see all churches are corrupt in one way or another therefore i now only follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, love God and love my neighbor.
Sadly, many seem to be absolutely clueless when it comes to the damnable heresies that truly make up a Christian cult, such as: Baptismal Regeneration, Open Theism, Pelagianism, Sinless Perfectionism, etc., all of which are found in the CoC. The restoration movement also gave rise to other cults, such as LDS, JW's, SDA's, Oneness Pentecostalism, etc., which speaks volumes.
I understand your perspective, but as a result you've simply created your own tradition that you follow and have put yourself in the same position as the other churches from made up traditions.
@@Journey_of_Abundance Thanks Zach I will let Jesus be the judge of that. Have a nice day :) My fellow sinner
@@johncruickshank7455 Ok, but just know that rejecting the hierarchy that God put in place within the Church in no way gets you closer to God. And I agree that coC and other denominations are not legitimate, but that doesn't mean we throw out the baby with the bath water and no longer seek the legitimate Church that Christ established.
I was saved out of the church of Christ at 16 when I was about to commit suicide because I couldn’t live a righteous life before God. I hated God and everyone else, but God opened my heart to believe in his name right before I was about to end my life. God eventually brought me to the truth about how I was saved through men like John MacArthur and Jeff Durbin. I want to thank all of the people at Cultish for getting the gospel of grace, which is the only Gospel, out there and especially for willing to wade into the mess that is CoC theology, culture, and practice. God be with all the household of faith till kingdom come. Christ is so precious and the cross is so beautiful, don’t trade that for water that only washes away grime off of the body
Praise our Lord Jesus and God our Father
I can relate. Thank God Jesus rescued you too.
Qq
@Yvonne Yes! Even in Acts 11:16-18, Peter describes what God had done in Acts 10, and there’s absolutely no mention of water baptism saving anyone, but only of Holy Spirit baptism into the Body of Christ through faith. He is wonderful indeed! And everything we need to know is right there in His Word.
@Yvonne I agree. Water baptism is often, but not always, one of the first fruits of sanctification. Sadly, the CoC confuses justification with sanctification, just as Rome does.
When I was 20 years old, I was met by a woman on my college campus who invited me to a Bible study (Bible Talk). Because I was so spiritually hungry, I quickly fell into a series of studies with them and was eventually baptized. It only took 9 months in the church for me to become physically, mentally and emotionally exhausted. By God’s grace, my brother was coming to the Lord at around the same time. The contrast of the freedom he was finding in Christ and the heavy yoke of works I was under was night and day. Again, by the loving providence of God, my brother was able to lead me out of the church and it began a true walk with Jesus. One note, this was in NYC, and the group was part of the International Church of Christ, or the ‘Boston movement’.
Thanks for sharing. Yes, the Boston movement can often be more aggressive than mainline CoC's, but they both still share the same salvation theology, which is why they both end up with the same sad outcomes.
No every COC is the same but one thing I would say to you is that Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by Grace through faith. no grace only not faith only.
@@jorgegonze Do you believe we should trust in Jesus Christ ALONE, or in Jesus plus other gods too? Please give an honest response.
That is the same group who I started with in Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
It feels so good to not be alone. I too was a part of this church.
Let me recommend that you do a bit more research regarding the beginning of the Stone-Campbell or American Restoration Movement that produced the CoC. Your guest completely messed that up. Stone and the Campbells were Presbyterians and their impetus was the number of exclusive factions in Christendom. Thomas Campbell was a minister in the Old-Light Anti-Burgher Seceder Presbyterian Church. Every one of those words represents a faction. They rejected not the ancient creeds but the Reformed confessions using words similar to Luther's own - I can accept them as far as they agree with Scripture. But then, why do you need them? The Campbells were baptized, as adults and they baptized others as adults. Their desire to "return to the Bible" was grounded in trying to find a common, non-exclusivistic practice of Christianity. There was nothing "lost and found" any more than the Reformers thought they had "found that which was lost."
I agree with what you said. If Campbell had started a Church (which he did not) they probably would be known today as Campbellite's but I have never heard about that Church. What is evident today is that John the Baptist like Campbell were never commanded to start a church but we have the Baptist Church today.
@@jorgegonze you’re kidding about John the Baptist and the Baptist church, right? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@karigross4596 Am just saying what some Baptist say and others deny but in the Bible God never Commanded John to start a Church. If John did not start the Baptist church according to other Baptist then the question is who did?
Spot on. The history was butchered. I will admit that in my experience in the coc the Restoration history is ignored. I find it really funny that the group who embraces their history the most(disciples of Christ) are as far from the movement as possible except they take communion each week.
Yah its always do more research. as far as i know I have never gone online claiming that the coc was started by Campbell which is what you guys have done. In history there was never a group called Campbellites nor did Campbell start a church, just as John the Baptist did not start the Baptist church. Find books that are not bias and you will agree with me,
Long term member of the church here, well traveled and visited many congregations, absolutely never heard this idea in connection with the age of accountability.
Thank you for sharing! I left the Church of Christ been in it all my life to a Baptist church. This has helped me drastically to understand the difference of what I was taught to the real meaning of following Christ! This has led me in the right direction. It’s hard to have the majority not speaking to you and think your lost for leaving Especially when your family is still in it. But so worth letting go of always being in fear because of what I was taught growing up and learning the true gospel.
I know a Baptist who is KJV only. I started attending a different Baptist church that uses esv. So I'm confused.
Have you read "Christ Rescued Me from the Church of Christ"?
@@KM-zn3lxI've never understood the obsession with a Bible altered by a biased king who wasn't a great guy. Government bible.
Hey, guys. I'm late to the party (as usual) just wanted to say thank you for the look into the Church of Christ. I spent the first 28 years of my life in it, and was so disillusioned that my last several years of reasoning out that I had no faith at all was difficult to overcome. I became a real Christian at the age of 34 and now at 35 am a Pastoral Ministry Student.
Keep up the good work.
Love you guys.
Wonderful testimonies like yours helps make outreaches to CoC's even more encouraging!! Thanks for sharing.
Into what church were believers added (Acts 2:47) after being baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27)?
The Church of Christ (Romans 16:16).
♥️
Jesus is not coming back for multiple churches that teach different doctrines and false plans of salvation (Galatians 1:8). He is not a polygamist. He is coming back for His one Bride.
💜
There is no authority for denominations in Scripture (division). All who die in a denomination die in a lost condition.
He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.”
Matthew 15:13
@@christrescuedme2182 and with what plan of salvation do you reach out to them? (Galatians 1:8).
@@christrescuedme2182 where is your Scripture for your arguments? (Book, chapter, verse)
“The Holy Book of My Feelings”
@@christrescuedme2182 Jesus commands water baptism, Mark 16:16, John 3:5
He says his commandments are not burdensome 1 John 5:3
Which Bible are you reading, may I ask?
Truth, all truth. I was raised in the church of Christ and left when I was 18. The church I attended preached that it was "their way" or the highway to hell every time the doors were open. Very little on God's love. There were some true Christians there though, who I know loved the Lord. That church is still open, but barely. I finally found a true Bible-believing church when I was 32, and it's been so wonderful knowing I have true salvation in Jesus Christ alone.
I’m sorry that was your experience. Thankfully mine has been very different. Grace has been a central teaching, and all the more so in my theology courses at Cincinnati Bible College and Seminary, mostly under Dr Jack Cottrell. It really seems to depend on the particular Church.
I had some experiences with the Atlanta Church of Christ in the 90s. They were part of the International Churches of Christ or the Boston Movement. Saw some people disappear into it and started reading and looking around for info on them. Kip McKean was the maniac in charge at the time. But he and his wife were ousted in a very public, very messy power struggle.
The whole movement took a huge hit then and through the early 2000s. I didn’t realize they were still around. I stopped keeping track of them because they’d lost so many of their pillar churches it seemed like they were defeated. They’re extremely spiritually dangerous.
The United Church of Christ is a mainstream/mainline Poststent church which was founded early in this country's history. They are a fairly liberal denomination. Nothing cultish at all about them. In my opinion, the Church of Christ used this name to spread around and to hide their true intentions or beliefs. My brother in law and his wife are members and they are extreme in their beliefs. The Atlanta Church of Christ branched off of the Church of Christ and they were very cultish and controlling of their members. Even my COC brother in law called my husband to warn him to stay away from them, because they're a cult. United Churches of Christ are the normal ones. If they aren't called that then they are the cult Church of Christ, which are all over the US.
The international Church of Christ isn’t the church of Christ. They are a cult. They have zero to do with the actual church of Christ. They do not live and worship by the Bible alone, specifically the New Testament. They follow some discipleship program where they all try to be like the cult leader who created the cult.
ICoC is not the same as CoC.
@@txsleepwalker6640 they are not like you said yet have common threads and one branched off from the other. It’s important for people to know the history.
@@darrylmendoza9764 what did I say that is incorrect?
My statement was simple. ICOC is not the CoC.
So far I'm 41 minutes in. I really like y'all's content. I've been looking forward to an episode like this for a long time. I'm about to binge watch the next one too. My background is I grew up SDA and eventually became agnostic to atheist back to Christian. On my journey back is cuz I'm very big into apologetics. I will did several different churches. I used to go to first Baptist churches. I checked out Catholicism Methodist other Protestant Presbyterian Pentecostal churches. I'm big in asking questions. Doing lots of research and understanding scripture and I love apologetics. My wife grew up Church of Christ. I didn't know I was attending a Church of Christ for years before I met my wife Aunt. She was really big on us. Only attending a church of Christ when we got married. I have lots of reservations about Church of Christ. We currently attend a Church of Christ and thus far I have not heard them. Teach believe anything to what has been presented a lot of times. I hear them teach the opposite and a lot of this seems to be a straw man representation in my opinion that I've also seeing Church Elizabeth of Christ do to Baptist or reformed Baptist and I hate those straw man arguments because you're falsely representing other groups. Now why I say I feel like a lot of this is a straw man is because I firmly believe there are many Churches of Christ that are what you are discussing here. But I've seen many that are not and I've noticed there's a very wide variety and from research branches of Churches of Christ. I guess y'all make that distinction later. I really feel like so far that is the main thing that is lacking.
I think this episode shows that you need to do your own research and not rely solely on the word of one "expert". To label the churches of Christ as a cult is irresponsible. I will say, I could not listen to the whole thing. He was so misinformed and saying such falsehoods that it hurt my heart.
Yeah not sure about the cult characterization either. I don’t agree with COC teachings but I always thought the #1 characteristic of a cult is that they can’t have any contact with anyone who has left it and salvation is only through their church/org/etc.
TheLyndsay1990
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He has been ostracized from everyone in the church of Christ because of his beliefs. The church openly says to its congregation that he has sown discord and for their members to not have anything to do with him or his church people. They have been told to not study with them and love them from a distance. This comes because he believes that God is completely sovereign and that baptism is not what saves you. He believes you are saved by faith alone as does this podcast.
They are a cult because they preach a false gospel that is condemned by Scripture. I was a CoC captive for over 30 years and it's only by the grace of God that I have escaped such deception and found the true Savior.
@@christrescuedme2182 What false gospel do they teach?
@@lynnettapierce1741 Baptismal Regeneration and subsequent works for justification.
I've gone to Church of Christ congregations for many years; I've always understood:
Baptism as an act of obedience, basically part of your confession that Jesus is the Son of God
Old Testament _Law_, the ceremonial parts, don't apply. But moral law, that's eternal.
Denomination doesn't save you, only Christ.
There are COC preachers, people, and congregations that believe and teach this or that thing in this video, but the core is we try to stick to the Bible and not to go beyond it. Sola Scriptura
Can you explain what gospel the thief on the cross obeyed, according to Hebrews 4:2?
After watching this video, which was great, although I wish it had more info to answer CoC, then reading the comments, not only do I have a headache, but am convinced that CoC is bizarre! I am married to a man who was raised in the CoC, so that is all he knows, despite the fact he disputes that to say he went to a Baptist church once. I was raised in the Baptist church, but I didn’t like what I saw there either. I started learning about the reformation, and my world changed. I have learned things from the Bible, thanks to the Holy Spirit’s guidance, that I never saw before. I left the CoC that my husband and I had been going to for a few years, and I was treated terribly by them and shunned. None of them talk to me anymore. They told me I was lost because of leaving the church. My husband was ready to divorce me over it. Long story short, I decided in order to save my marriage and to keep the peace, I went to another CoC with him, but I cannot swallow their doctrine. If I hear, ‘hear, believe, repent, confess and be baptized” one more time I will scream. I have tried all different ways to tell my husband what the Bible actually says about the Gospel, and that the blood of Jesus is what saves us. The entire Bible is a beautiful picture, from Genesis to Revelation, of God’s perfect plan - a perfect sacrifice. There are types and shadows in the OT, and it matches up with the NT. You need to have a good understanding of the OT in order to understand the NT. You have to look up original language words to get the full meaning of words translated in English. “Speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent” is another phrase CoC likes to use, but they don’t take their own advise. I am currently keeping my beliefs to myself for now until, God willing, my husband is called by God and the Holy Spirit guides him to truly study the Word. Until then, my learning is in secret. God is in control and knows exactly what is in my heart, and that since I was a little girl of 10 years old, I have sought his truths. I will keep learning until He takes me home. I will also keep praying that eventually I won’t have to step foot in another CoC as long as I live. It is false teaching. “What can wash away my sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus”. Blood sacrifice was always the plan, from OT to NT. Jesus was the ultimate perfect sacrifice. Most of CoC people I know are not well educated in the Bible, do not exegete the Word properly, and do not love people who are not CoC. Red flag.
Im sorry to hear that Cindy. I believe we will be doing a follow up soon. I would love to talk with your husband about these things. Praying for you and your situation. God is with you through it all and His plan for you is working out perfectly...continue to trust in him.
Do I Have to Be Baptized to be Saved? Aaron Gallagher & Trey Fisher Discussion on Acts 22:16czcams.com/video/emxJgszo1Lk/video.html
@@tdfish311 update: my husband no longer goes to a CoC. He is now going with me to a reformed church. God is so good!
@@CHall338 praise God! Episode TWO comes out Tuesday. Answering the objections. You can also see a lot of CoC content on my CZcams channel, The Parish Reformed.
Praise God Cindy!
In my time in college, there were a few church of christ missionaries. They were very persistent on the fact that they were the one true church and that there was no salvation except though them. I did a couple bible studies with them and even attended one of their church services. At their church service, I got a very weird vide. Consequently, I did not return or speak to them again. They told me I would be going to hell for no joining them even though I am Southern Baptist.
I eventually looked them up and I saw so many stories of people who's relationship with God was harmed by the theology of this church. One of the things that threw me off was these assigned disciples that would look over new members. It almost looked like members had no private life because their disciple would know everything about them and what they were doing. All the people that would conduct the bible studies on campus also lived together, adding to a very intrusive lifestyle aspect that really put me off. It seemed that if you did not do everything they said and did, your personal relationship with God was not good enough for salvation.
Same experience in many ways.
This!!! This is exactly what happened to me in the Spring of 2013!
Before I was a Christian, I was a universalist (very common in Cali), but I was pretty open-minded about other belief systems, so when this guy (let's call him mike), invited me to, what I thought to be a light Bible study, I agreed, thinking he was completely normal. I went to these Bible studies led by Mike and his friend (we'll call him Paul) at my school. I've come to know they intentionally prey on college students.
They said in these studies that the ICoC was the only real church and told me that in order to be saved, I must be baptized in their church and be virtually sinless. Looking back, they cherry-picked about 10 verses and made them the entirety of scripture, which is what all cults do.
The first red flag I had was that Mike and Paul called/texted me at, like, 5 AM every morning and told me that if I was truly a devoted Christian, I'd get up hours before sunrise to read my Bible. They then would constantly text me intrusive questions throughout the day. Now, I'm pretty grumpy if I don't get a full night's rest, so that got real tired real fast.
The second was that they discouraged me from reading anything other than the book of Acts (not even the other Gospels or any of the epistles) and certainly discouraged me from reading any 'blind theologian', as they would call them.
Third, they talked as though they had memorized a script (which there is one that you can find on Google), and if you brought up something they didn't prepare for, they would just say, 'Yeah, Amen,' or something like to just brush it aside.
Fourth, Mike and Paul tried to evoke emotional responses. When they explained the way to be saved, they basically interrogated me and questioned whether or not I truly wanted to be saved because I wasn't crying when they gave me their gospel.
But the biggest red flag of them all was the night I went to their church a few weeks before Easter and met their congregants. It was, by far, the weirdest, cultiest thing I had ever witnessed. Everyone was nice, but they were too nice and it didn't feel genuine. In researching them, is their love-bombing stage to get people initiated into their cult (which later turns to a shunning stage if you step outta line).
Then, they had a collection and everybody looked at me as though I killed someone when I didn't give anything (I was a broke college student at the time; gimme a break!). Mike told me that the church basically owns you and your finances.
The sermon was basically 'you need to get baptized in the ICoC way', but what struck me as weird was that the pastor rarely quoted the Bible. He just said what the church tells its congregants to say when they do their evangelism.
Mike then introduced me to this super sweet girl, but again, she was a little too sweet and it felt very weird and uncomfortable. She told me that she had prayed for new male members to come and strengthen the body and was super flirtatious all night. She sat next to me, Mike, and Mike's wife during the service, and afterwards, she wouldn't leave me alone. Mike told me when he dropped me off at home that she was praying for a husband, so I better get baptized in their church so I could marry her! I later found out that the ICoC sometimes will arrange marriages and at the very least make you get permission from them if you wanna get married. She probably thought I was gonna be her husband.
A whole bunch of the congregants wanted my phone number, which I stupidly gave to them, where they would proceed to call or text me constantly, from 5 AM to the middle of the night.
The last straw for me was that Paul wanted me to do something with them during Holy week and I told them no because I had to get ready for my family's Easter party. Paul said something to me about choosing my family over God because cults try to separate you from your families (misapplying the verse about hating your mother and father btw). I kinda went off on him because at that point, I'd had enough and he was acting all apologetic, saying that he wasn't trying to pressure me. That was the last time I ever spoke to any of them. They called and texted, but I blocked all their numbers.
I was beyond done with them at that point, and I spent the next few weeks researching them and finding out so much crazy stuff about that cult-like their dangerous disciplinary practices for dissenting members, their financial structure as a pyramid scheme, and the fact that they try to separate you from your family and friends. I avoided certain places at school where I knew they'd be because I didn't want them to harass me.
But what Satan meant for evil, God meant for good. In researching about them, I came across Kirk Cameron's and Ray Comfort's ministry Living Waters, where they explained what the true Gospel was and why the ICoC was a cult. If I hadn't come across them, I would be lost to this day.
TL;DR: The ICoC is a cult and they're weird, but the Lord used my brief experience with them to bring me to the true Gospel, repentance and faith.
Sounds exactly like the cult “International Church of Christ” and not church of Christ. The ICOC has nothing to do with the actual church of Christ. They do things they call “ discipleship,”’and and other practices that they make up. They are a denomination that was or still is run by a cult leader. Seems like his name was or is Kipp. They were a bigger deal more than 20 years ago and back the. They were the fastest growing cult in the USA, even faster than the Mormon cult. They do not pattern their life and worship by the New Testament alone, like Jesus’ actual church of Christ.
I had the same experience in college. Those folks are not the same as the mainline C of C that originated with Barton, Stone, & Campbell. The campus C of C people are a separate group. However, both groups have questionable theology. The campus folks are a cult and are very controlling.
There are many so-called "churches" throughout the country that call themselves the Church of Christ when in fact they ARE A CULT that just wants your money The statement you made that said: I have been a member of the Church for over 50 years and none of the churches I have attended have said anything like this.
The church I attend says you give from your heart as god has prospered you. There is no pressure for anyone to give. Preachers in the CofC quote the bible throughout their sermons to support their statements and reasons for our beliefs.
Another statement I have never heard which is beyond silly, I have never heard of this, and like I said I have been in the church for over 50 years.
"???? There is NO holy week in the true Church of Christ>
Lastly, the farthest thing from the truth is that Our mission is to save the LOST and doing so, bring your friends and family TO Christ, not push you or them away.
I suggest you do more research and look for a Church of Christ that is biblically correct and not one that is truly a cult.
May God Bless you in your search for the truth.
You'll never know how good God really is if you don't realize how bad we really are that was deep thank you for that
Speak for your self. I know my repentance you don't and thank you are not my judge.
What a stupid thing to say.
👋 Member of the COC. Now, wife of a preacher. Been active in COC for 24 years. Been member of COC from east to west coast and back again.
To clarify, only 10ish min in. Barton Stone and the Campbells were restorers in the same vein that Calvin and Luther were restorers. You can call one set “reformers” and one set “restorers” all you want, but they were all appealing to Scripture as authority to stop what they saw as errors in their local Churches. Luther and Calvin were both labeled as heretical as you are labeling the COC now, for the same thing….A plea to return to scripture. Luther and Calvin were trying to get people to understand scripture, to correct what they saw in the Catholic teachings of the day b/c they recognized something was amiss. That is the same thing the Stone and the Campbells were doing. They were all trying to “restore” teachings back to scripture.
Also, COC cannot be lumped in with Mormons or JW as in a “restoration” movement. Mormons and JW’s were not restoring people to scripture. They were publishing new “revelations/prophecies,” not just asking for people to return to scripture. Furthermore, they don’t even believe that Jesus was God while on earth. The COC whole heartily teaches that Jesus was God while on earth, b/c that is what scripture says.
And the COC doesn’t teach that you only have to be baptized to be saved. The NT is filled with verses that say salvation includes belief, faith, repentance, grace, baptism, and continuing to try to live according to what Christ asks of us as Paul pleaded in Ephesians 4:1. Now walk in a manner worthy of your calling, but we also know from Paul we can’t be perfect and see that in his testimony in 1 Co7- 1 Cor 8:2. There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. His grace is sufficient.
I don’t wonder if I am saved or worry about being in or out of salvation or “working for it” b/c 1John 3:15 tells me I can know that I have eternal life. However, hypothetically, if I choose one day to deny God, deny Christ, then I will walk away from my faith in Him, just like all of those Paul listed in 2nd Timothy. Then I made the choice to walk away from that salvation. But,… if I repent of that denial and come back to Christ… No need to be rebaptized, just know Christ is always there with open arms. Even if I made the choice to deny my faith and leave Him. He is never the one who leaves us.
Also, this lumps a lot of various COC teachings together. The International COC/Boston movement and the non-institutional/anti-church are completely different from mainline COC. Maybe they explain that more, but the comments seem to lump us together. Still each COC even within mainline will have various understandings on Holy Spirit, worship, women’s roles, etc. b/c each congregation is autonomous.
THIS!!! Thank you. ❤️
“Salvation includes … continuing to try and live according to what Christ asks of us…”
Works
@@hawkeye2958 you can label anything works, that doesn’t make it logical. Christ said, “if you love me you will keep my commandments and my commandments are not burdensome.” I Guess the Israelites should have sat down on the bank of the Red Sea and not crossed b/c that would have been “working” for their salvation. Trying to live like Christ asks us too is not “works” anymore that what the Israelites did, it is humble obedience.
@@shellbell2167 There's a huge difference between those who wanted to escape Romanism (the true reformers) and those who wanted to "restore" Romanism. The Stone/Campbell "restorationists" claimed to restore “unity,” based on what they termed “the ancient gospel.” But what they actually “restored” was the Roman Catholic, sacramental concept of salvation, primarily, Baptismal Regeneration.
@@shellbell2167 Can you please explain to us exactly what gospel the thief on the cross obeyed according to Hebrews 4:2?
I think we have to be careful about labeling such a large and varied group a cult. I grew up in the CoC and although the gospel was more apparent to me in the baptist church, I believe it is still there in many places. I have lots of family members in CoC who believe in the real gospel including imputed righteousness by faith. It is not a very top-down organization (in my experience) so a lot of churches’ beliefs depend on individual pastors’ teaching.
Agreed, i grew up in an independent Christian church and have seen many people from the CoC denomination that do not nearly fit into the picture painted here. Massive generalization being done here
Sadly, many seem to be absolutely clueless when it comes to the damnable heresies that truly make up a Christian cult, such as: Baptismal Regeneration, Open Theism, Pelagianism, Sinless Perfectionism, etc., all of which are found in the CoC. The restoration movement also gave rise to other cults, such as LDS, JW's, SDA's, Oneness Pentecostalism, etc., which speaks volumes.
From my experience there is no “church of Christ group.” Every church is an individual, autonomous church.
@@bigzachus From your experience, how many of them are teaching baptismal regeneration?
Their silence always speaks volumes!!
There needs to be a “Cultish” investigation into the reformed, Calvinist movement.
How is Calvinism a cult?
@@christrescuedme2182 the fact that you can rarely get their biggest proponents to debate with Orthodox Christians is one cultish indicator.
@@christrescuedme2182 If you do a search on CZcams regarding cults, everything is being called a cult these days. Even atheists are calling out atheist groups as cults. I tell you, CZcams is the new Salem and the witch trials have commenced. lol
@@Journey_of_Abundance Yes, they prefer to fly under the radar, which makes them even more dangerous than the average cult, because they refuse to be pinned down on what they really believe. This is how they've gathered such a following all these years, and it's exactly how they keep their converts so spiritually deceived. But being that I was one of them for over 30 years, I can see right through all of their shenanigans, which is why they hate me with a passion. It's only a miracle of God's grace that I escaped.
@@FatherSun76737 The reason there are so many cults today, is because we are living in a time of great deception, my friend. And one of the tools of satan is to convince people that there is no absolute truth, or that "every religion is just a cult," or that you are just some kind of "witch hunter" if you call out heresy for what it is. But true Christianity is the only religion in the world that believes salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in the biblical Jesus Christ alone.
THANK YOU. I LOVE LISTENING. KEEP HAVING THESE DISCUSSIONS
what they teach does not match what the Scripture teaches which follows
Eph 2.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith.
Some of the questions we need to focus on is
1) what is grace and mercy since they are linked together
2) what is faith (belief) & what is involved in this to have a saving faith (belief)
3) at what point in one's growth in one's faith is one saved
1) what is grace? God giving something we do not deserve.
God Forgave us of our sins. Does not contain all aspects of grace
what is mercy? God not giving us something we deserve
wages of sin is death. God us his son to die on the cross to pay
the price for our sins. Does not contain all aspects of mercy
2) what is faith (one's belief)
John 3.16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
by this passage many claim that Belief in Jesus is just a mental acknowledgement of Jesus and nothing else. But is this Correct?
John 3.19-21 due to time, I'll focus on vs 21 But >>whoever does what is true >his works> whoever does the will
@@jayu2551 We are saved when we believe in Christ. I recieved the baltism of the Holy Spirit in my bedroom. We must believe with everything in us, i have been baltized as we should. But those dieing can ask Jesus to be LORD of them and He will be.
For those who are alive on earth, accept Jesus, be baptized and walk it out.
Walking it out exercises our trust in Him and our belief that He will care for us. If we believe in anything we are going to walk that out.
But we are saved not by works but because of what Jesus already accomplished.
When we walk it out it is a testament of whether we really believed when we said it or not.
If we continue to try verses saying we believe and not caring when we are convicted.
We are saved by nothing of ourselves.
The works that we are speaking about, are what we do after we believe/profess to be believers.
We judge by the believers fruit.
@@sherricoffee7067 Sadly, the CoC has no true knowledge of how we are to “work OUT our salvation with fear and trembling,” rather than work FOR our salvation which is why it always isolates this passage from the verse that follows, “For it is God which worketh in you to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Phil. 2:12-13).
@@christrescuedme2182 Amen! If not for grace, then why did Jesus take our sin upon Him? When Jesus said it is done, we doubt the Word of God if we believe there is something we who are filth (made rightouse by Him) believe we should add to it with some miserable work that is thought of and exercised through a willingness to produce evil and not good?
Without Jesus we are filthy rags.
Glory to God we are made rightouse and stand in front of God now because of what Jesus did.
After we see our sin, then He shows us our savior whoch brings hope, then the actions of our walk produce fruit, not works, but living to love Him and let Him live through us... Not working, living.
You are right friend. Thank you for your reply.
@@sherricoffee7067 Into what church were believers added (Acts 2:47) after being baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27)?
The Church of Christ (Romans 16:16).
♥️
Jesus is not coming back for multiple churches that teach different doctrines and false plans of salvation (Galatians 1:8). He is not a polygamist. He is coming back for His one Bride.
💜
There is no authority for denominations in Scripture (division). All who die in a denomination die in a lost condition.
He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.”
Matthew 15:13
Baptism of the Holy Spirit only occurred twice with the apostles, all apostolic gifts have ceased 1 Corinthians 13
“Not by faith alone”
James 2:24
I'm a street preacher. There are many in the street preaching community that sadly don't believe in the doctrine of original sin.
Because it's nowhere in Scripture probably.
here is a brief summary of what some, most, coC believe about grace, when is grace received, but not worded in the way they usually say it
Eph 2.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith.
Some of the questions we need to focus on is
1) what is grace and mercy since they are linked together
2) what is faith (belief) & what is involved in this to have a saving faith (belief)
3) at what point in one's growth in one's faith is one saved
1) what is grace? God giving something we do not deserve.
God Forgave us of our sins. Does not contain all aspects of grace
what is mercy? God not giving us something we deserve
wages of sin is death. God us his son to die on the cross to pay
the price for our sins. Does not contain all aspects of mercy
2) what is faith (one's belief)
John 3.16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
by this passage many claim that Belief in Jesus is just a mental acknowledgement of Jesus and nothing else. But is this Correct?
John 3.19-21 due to time, I'll focus on vs 21 But >>whoever does what is true >his works> whoever does the will
Like Pelagianism, the CoC denies our desperate need of the Savior as soon as we’re conceived (Ps. 51:5; 58:3). Never mind that infants often have to pay the wages of sin, which is death. Although they are innocent of volitional sin (Jer. 2:34), they have inherent sin, or else no babies would ever die. “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 6:23).
@@christrescuedme2182 Psalm 51 doesn't say what you want it to say. Infants die for the same reason Adam did - he didn't have access to the Tree of Life.
At least that's what the narrative says. You should actually read your Bible.
@@HoytRoberson I actually do read my Bible, unlike some who try to make up their own narrative to fit the CoC's pet doctrines. Scripture is clear. "The wages of SIN is death" (Rom. 6:23). It does NOT say the wages of "the lack of access to the tree of life" is death. Adam DID have access to the tree of life, until he sinned. Since then, God has kept mankind from that tree, in order to prevent them from living forever in a fallen condition. However, those who receive the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ will once again have access to the tree of life (Rev. 22:2).
Grew up in CoC went to Harding and am someone who still follows Christ. A lot of your points 1) I have never heard taught, not saying that there aren’t outliers but largely your arguments I’ve never heard taught or were completely miss understood or miss represented as a whole. 2) You largely argued form a straw man fallacy, not a place where I want to build my foundation for an argument.
This video did not represent the CoC view well as a whole from my 30+ years of experience. If anyone wants base CoC and hear their views from the horses mouth check out the unashamed podcast. czcams.com/video/kKXxzGReegY/video.html.
For centuries Christians have tried to biblically reason with CoC leaders, but more often than not, they will tenaciously cling to the Campbellism script that the CoC universities have indoctrinated them into. Sadly, Christians who try to reach them with the true gospel, and expose the CoC's heresies, are often treated as if they are completely ignorant of what the CoC actually teaches, because the veil is still over the eyes of those who are deeply entrenched in it, which makes them unable to fully comprehend the heretical implications of their own belief system.
@@christrescuedme2182 each CoC is it's own local church.. They're known to be nondenominational. He cant speak as though each COC has the same problems.
@@michi-bi They all have the same salvation theology no matter how many peripheral issues may be different.
@@christrescuedme2182 you're quick to condemned without doing actual research of each church. they're locally runned with their own elders how would you kno if they're following heretical or not, you must be self righteous! If u actually cared about these churchs u would pray for them, instead of condemning them. Satan won't stop at trying leading us astray and dividing us, the least u could do is pray that God help them seek truth smh
@@michi-bi Why would you assume that I've not done my research? I've only written an entire book about it. Lol. Perhaps apostle Paul should have just prayed for the Judaizers instead of exposing their false gospel, right?...NOT
For the sake of not honesty and fairness, please be sure to make a distinction between the mainline Churches of Christ that came from the Stone-Campbell Restoration movement and the Boston Church of Christ, which is a cult. Many people get confused about that.
Exactly! I attended BOC in the early 90s it's definitely a cult.
I was part of the ICOC in the late 90s / early 2000s. Agreed that it is cult like for sure.
@@gregcarlson8438 they wanted me to move into an all women's home so I could be completely under their control. My brother also attended for a while. He almost lost his marriage over this church. All the women I met had either been socially abused, had serious addiction issues or eating disordered. I am not judging because I fit in one of those categories, just an observation.
@@dianmichaelis I lived in a few of those households. I couldn’t date the girl I was interested in for two years with lots of control over that relationship. We’ve been married for 19 years now so that was a long time ago.
Great point.
I was baptized into an ultra conservative CoC at age 19. I was sold on it for about 6 years until GOD, by His grace allowed me to start questioning what I was observing. At first I still accepted their presentation of the "gospel." It was the outward behavior that was initially driving my search (public confessions, KJV only, suit and tie always for preaching, no instruments, must attend all classes and door to door evangelism, etc...) Eventually I worked from the outward inward and began to see that they never preached to me the gospel at all. What they taught me was a series of steps ultimately ending in water baptism. And even then, its not guaranteed you'll make it. You have to maintain a position of salvation. I became and professional eggshell walker and never had any assurance ( ironically, we only sung hymns using a pitch pipe and one of the hymns was "Blessed Assurance"). I was constantly making sure all the boxes were checked. All my research and study had to be done privately because they didn't acknowledge any outside sources concerning theology. I once brought an ESV to bible class and got talked to afterwards by a "teacher." Fully persuaded, I left quietly. Trying to go toe to toe at that time probably would've resulted in me being "withdrawn from" thus severing any ability to reach out to them in the future to preach. I came to hear the gospel, repented and believed through an online source. I'm grateful to be saved. I'm grateful for your ministry. Thank you so much!
It's so good to hear from others who have been through the same thing. Thank you so much for sharing your testimony!
@Yvonne So true. That's how it was for me when I was in the CoC. But once God led me to true expositions of scripture, I remember being brought to tears when God finally gave me the blessed assurance that He accepted the righteousness of Christ on behalf of sinners like me. And I've never been the same since! He set me free!
Needless to say, Jesus became precious to me as I perceived a peace in my soul that He had always loved me with an everlasting love, and that I was His forever. By the Lord giving me such strong consolation, I was finally able to know true, supernatural and eternal “joy and peace in believing” (Rom. 15:13), without a terrifying fear of losing my faith and ending up in Hell! God saved me because Jesus is perfect, Not because my faith, repentance or knowledge of His truth was perfect.
1 Corinthians 1:14
“I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;” “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”Psalms 51:5 We are born with a sin nature
@@rickraybourn7456 The CoC suggests that Paul was just thankful that he hadn’t personally baptized the Christians at Corinth because they were calling themselves by the name of the person who had performed their baptism. But this lame excuse makes Paul out to be a tease who tells them that they can only be saved by water baptism… but then withholds it from them!
So, the CoC system must answer the question… just how in the world did Paul begat believers in Corinth through the gospel if he didn’t baptize them? Because Paul clearly stated: “for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:15). Ironically, the CoC's characteristic ploy of trying to defend a lie with another lie always catches up with it, and proves that the gospel Paul preached….was Not the CoC's watered-down “water gospel."
Reggie, thank you for your testimony. That is exactly what I have witnessed with the CoC churches around me.
I Grew up in the COC, father was a preacher in COC, my two aunts married COC preachers, and I attended a COC university. I still go to the COC, over 50 years old. I read through some of the comments, and I thought to myself what kind of COC are these! I don't doubt that there are folks that went to a building with the signage of Church of Christ and had bad experiences and I'm glad that they found another church and remained a follower of Christ.
I never believed we were born perfect. Though it is interesting that Jesus said in Matthew 19:14, "the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." [a child] But sinlessness was not what was so special to Jesus here. Children were not the explicit target of the gospel, but men and women. The bible refers to parents properly raising their children. Or Paul mentions about Timothy and what sounds like him growing up around faithful believers. 2 Timothy 1:5. The great commission was to preach the gospel to world, to parse out some specific statement about the sin nature of children, seems to not be a priority in the bible. We are all born in the line of Adam.
Baptism was always shown in the bible as a companion of belief. When you read the gospels and your read Acts, when people believed the gospel, they were baptized. So, "If you look at God's word" it shows the response to hearing and believing the gospel is baptism. I never heard of being baptized into the COC, as though your wore a members only jacket. There was baptism while Jesus was still alive John 4:1-3, the disciples were baptizing. Also you didn't really dig into Acts 2:38, you mentioned Acts 2:39 and trailed away from it, Acts 10:44-48, proves the point. The point, that, once the Holy Spirit affirmed that faith in Christ was for the gentiles too and not just the "circumcised", those gentiles were baptized. To me it's not argument about "I'm saved by baptism", because we are not, salvation is a gift. I sin and a second later I die, I'm going to heaven.
If you are seeking a relationship with Christ and you believe that the Scripture is the inspired word of God, Read the bible and obey what it says. You will never be perfect. Paul repeats over and over the continual struggle and challenges in following Christ, but great is the reward. It is a simple daily formula, read scripture, pray, and live by faith, for our hope is not in what is seen, but what is unseen. I like the song Trust and Obey, for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey. 1 John 2:3-11
Scripture says that the church is the bride of Christ. It uses marriage as an example of Jesus relationship with the church. I don't bother myself with Barton Stone or Alexander Campbell, or the intentions of the restoration movement. When I think of a group of people meeting together every Sunday, following and worshiping Jesus Christ, the Church of Christ is aptly named, or the Church of God. Is that not what it is?
Although the CoC claims to have no formal creeds, you might want to better familiarize yourself with the CoC's official literature, which speaks volumes.
@@christrescuedme2182 where does one go to find official CoC literature? I would suggest this doesn’t exist. Sad to learn after all these years that I am in a cult.
@@cartermahanay2729 One of the CoC's official publications is called "House to House Heart to Heart." It deceptively re-defines biblical terminology, which confirms all that's being exposed about the CoC.
It's better late than never, when it comes to realizing one's true spiritual condition. There's still time to repent and to come to the true Jesus of the Bible; the true Savior Who actually saves rather than expecting people to save themselves first.
@@cartermahanay2729 Also, one of the CoC"s main publishers is "The Gospel Advocate," which has been aggressively promoting the CoC's secret creeds (that it claims not to have) since 1866.
@@christrescuedme2182 those are not COC official literature. The COC has no official literature other than scripture. Those are publications put out by members of the COC. House to house, heart to heart is under the oversight of a specific congregation, but it would only demonstrate that local congregation’s beliefs, not ALL COC’s. Therefore it cannot be “official literature.” Each COC is autonomous and doesn’t believe everything in those publications is scriptural. Some congregations use house to house to help with evangelism, others do not believe it is accurate and won’t use it. Gospel Advocate is no different than any other publishing company for instance, Zondervan. G.A. will publish items in line with their views just like Zondervan published items in line with their views. Still doesn’t make GA the light on the hill for or official literature. Each Church follows their understanding of scripture. Not every church with the name COC on the sign is scriptural and not every church that has something else on their sign is “unscriptural” either. It’s a gross misunderstanding to lump all COC’s together, each is different. Like I tell my kids. You find a church that follows scripture, I don’t care what is on their sign.
The bible does say in Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
So you believe one must be baptized in order to get saved?
It is what the scripture says. What do you suggest he believe?
I was saved out of the "coc" /independent christian churches, praise be to God.
Praise the Lord Jesus Christ! Thank you for sharing.
So sad you fell into apostasy
Really Trail Reeves? You seem pretty smug about it: and by what standard, was it the Bible - because I’m pretty sure that’s been covered…
@@trailrvs why apostasy??
@@Me-ic3li lol ‘saved out of’? What kind of Church of Christ aka basically Baptist church did you go to?
So funny that I found this video! I have a conversation with a collegue, who is a member of Church of Christ, regarding baptism. She asked me to explain to her what is the meaning of John 3.5, Matthieu 28.18-20 and Mark 16.16, so I did. Then, she responded after asking a scholar friend of hers to help her and came back with a lot of Greek and other explanations that, to be honest, were not convincing to me at all. And she asked me other questions regarding those passages in light of her explanations. So now, I have like 9 pages to respond to her and I am not even done!!! This is very time consuming but I will be a master in water baptism! 😆😆 I espacially hope that she'll see the truth by the grace of God. Thank you for this video! I have learn a lot about other teachings of Church of Christ and even heard an argument that I will add to my response to my colleague!
Yes, baptism is required for salvation. One cannot go to Heaven without it . One doesn’t need a scholar, only a Bible.
John 3:5 is water from being born, not water baptism. Mark 16:16 is simple if you aren’t told to believe something it doesn’t say. It says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. It is telling us those 2 things are required. You can’t deny this. It then says whoever does not believe won’t be saved because if you don’t believe you can’t be saved. You also can’t be baptized if you don’t believe. The reason baptism isn’t mention in the first half of the verse is because you can believe and still refuse to be baptized. The reason it isn’t mentioned in the second half of the verse if because you can’t be actually baptized without first believing, so if you don’t believe you also won’t get baptized.
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
Mark 16:16 NIV
@@adamholmes1992 "John 3:5 is water from being born, not water baptism." Well, it's comforting to know that every human is already half-way there. The way you would have it read is: "Unless a man is born of amniotic fluid, then at some later date born again of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom." Somehow that just doesn't ring true: it looks like someone is struggling to come up with something. Can you name any early Christian writers who saw it that way? Or can you find any references in or out of the Bible (from Greek writers of the time period) of natural childbirth being referenced as a "birth of water" or "born of water."? Your explanation would have a little more credibility is such language was common.
@@brendanjobe6895 I read koine Greek. I still believe that John 3:5 isn’t specifically talking about baptism, but Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Matthew 28, and 1 Peter 3:21 certainly is. The fact that I don’t see John 3:5 talking about it doesn’t change the fact that the New Testament tells us that we are saved by Grace, through Faith, at Baptism (full immersion water baptism).
@@adamholmes1992 Why in the world would you not believe it? It's good that we both read koine Greek. So far, you've asserted that the "born of water" part refers to natural childbirth, i.e. amniotic fluid. I've done a ton of c-sections so I know exactly what you are talking about. And Jesus was talking about entering the church, His kingdom which was at hand. Anyway, why would you go 100% against what people who lived at the time said it meant? That was my question. Not arguing. More like curiosity.
I think I will henceforth say I am part of an independent, non-legalistic, Bible-believing and teaching, grace saved by the blood of Christ, Holy Spirit lead, God seeking, non-denominational Church of Christ. haha We do baptize. We sing with good music. We don't think we're the only ones in Christ, and we don't shun people who leave to go somewhere else.
I am sure I forgot something that would please or offend someone, but, gladly, The Lord God Almighty knows what is in the hearts of all people, no matter what the name on their church building, and whether they are part of the Bride of Christ. I am glad some of the commenters here, nor the somewhat incomplete representation here, have any say on whether I am in Christ or not.
We all must be careful to follow Christ and His teachings, not the doctrine of a leader nor a denomination. READ the Word of God carefully. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. Love those who hate you and pray for those who persecute you. Gather together with true believers and love each other and encourage each other toward what the Lord has called you.
Hello, huge fan of yalls podcast. I feel like y’all mischaracterized the Robertson’s a little. Now, I could be totally wrong. But, I have been listening to the Unashamed podcast since day 1. And I have never heard them claim things like, we are born perfect, or others cause you to fall into sin, or that it’s grave plus works, etc. in fact, I have heard them say much more that agrees with the views you all point out, and that would seem to be disagreeing with the Church of Christ traditional ideology. Now, like I said maybe I missed some stuff. But, I think you all should have a cultish/unashamed podcast that would be awesome. And y’all should bring up these subjects. I think cultish crew and the Robertson’s would agree on a lot more than they disagree on. Anyway, just a thought, praise Jesus for the work yall do at Apologia!
I don't think they were saying those theologies are what the Robertsons believe but that the Robertsons go to a church that officially believes those things.
Edit: Many people I know don't believe every single thing their particular church teaches.
If that’s the case then great. Just from listening, to me it sounding like they are were implying that’s was the Robertson’s theology. The way the conversation flowed. But, yea if that’s the case and I misunderstood than great. I still think a unashamed/cultish podcast would be awesome.
As you watch the Unashamed podcast (which I love btw), pay attention to the debates between Jase and Phil on topics such as baptism or works. If you pay attention you will start to pickup that Phil is much more hardline CoC than Jase. I think Jase gets it. Saved by Grace!
I get what your saying. But from listening I don’t think Phil believe it’s Faith plus Works. I think he’s just has such an evangelistic heart for the simplicity of the Gospel. When he lays out how we are sinners in need and Jesus. And we put our faith in him, we are baptized, and we go on our way “trying to to good.” Everytime I hear Phil talk about works, he always, always says “try to do good” not “you must do good” he always says “try” and he has said we may fail, he admits he did a bit earlier on as a believer. But, he still pursued Christ, and kept trying. So, just from what I hear, nothing he’s said has felt like faith plus works. More like saved by Grace, and because of the change in your heart, you’ll see the goodness of Christ start to permeate from you by the Spirit. But, if you stumble Jesus is your advocate to the Father. That’s just my opinion from listening.
By grace through faith
Odd... I've gone to COC for decades and have never heard these tenets. I know I wasn't born perfect.
But Jesus, my Lord and Savior said people had to be baptized for the forgiveness of sin, so that settles it for me. I can't earn my salvation through works... I'll never be good enough on my own.
I was in the CoC for over 30+years and thought the same way you have expressed, because I didn't realize what I was really being taught to believe, and the serious implications of those beliefs, until the Lord saved me. For instance, although our “second laws of pardon” were conditioned upon our own works, the CoC claimed that these works were exempt from Paul’s condemnation of works salvation, because they were supposedly works of a different category….those that baptism had made acceptable for salvation.
The CoC would also elusively dodge Paul’s condemnation of works salvation by giving lip service to the fact that one couldn’t earn salvation. But what was really meant was that one could not initially earn salvation, for one could not lay the sacramental groundwork for salvation, which Jesus supposedly did when He instituted baptism.
But after baptism, “works” of repentance, faith, etc….could be meritorious, for they were now “baptized works,” acceptable for meriting or earning salvation. So, the gist was that one couldn’t earn salvation by works…until after baptism, which was still a salvation by works… just misleadingly worded different.
Was never taught any of that either. Good thing Churches of CHRIST are independent.
My CoC definitely allows questions and we read in context and they wouldnt shun someone.
But why does the CoC refuse to answer those questions biblically?
@@christrescuedme2182 ur assuming they dont
@@thegollyer903 Then let's test that theory. Can you explain how the thief on the cross was saved?
@@christrescuedme2182 yes. The new covenant hasn't started yet. Hebrews 9 16-17
@@thegollyer903 How do you reconcile that view with Hebrews 4:2?
The explanation given in the churches I attended is that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in Acts were miraculous, and that since then miracles have ceased. So now you have to receive the Holy Spirit in a non-miraculous way. (sic)
@V.H. Mizzell I was recently kicked out of a chat room because I refused to believe that the gifts had ceased. I never knew what denomination/belief system the group predominantly identified with, but CoC would make sense (int’l or otherwise). I thought that to be such a strange sticking point for them.
@@texanruss1470 John MacArthur is a cessationist.
I think the best refutation on baptismal regeneration is when Paul admonishes the pharisees about circucumcision. It's almost a exact analogy of salvation via water baptism because Paul states that the act it self is not as important as the change in the person which breaks down the soteriology of the sacrament of water baptism. Read Colossians 2:6-15 then Romans 4:1-13 then finally Romans 2:17-29. Becomes pretty clear what Paul is saying here. It's so beautiful.
I do want to be forth coming. I have been struggling with sin so I don't want it to look like I'm working this doctrine out perfectly in my life but I pray I can add to anyone's understanding. Cheers
Guys…whoa..I can’t believe you just posted this video. I just moved to Tennessee and have been looking for a church for several weeks. Down the street is a church of Christ and I decided to stop in as I don’t know much about them. two red flags that went up immediately after meeting the pastor… Doctrine of election and salvation! This could not have been a more timely podcast so thank you very much for doing what you do!
1 Corinthians 1:14
“I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;”
the guy in the Middle twisted and distorted what the coC teach so much I can barely find any truth in what he claimed the coC teach. Although it is possible some coC may teach that distorted truth. Because I do know many teach things so far from the truth I will not visit that specific congregation again.
how about this
Eph 2.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith.
Some of the questions we need to focus on is
1) what is grace and mercy since they are linked together
2) what is faith (belief) & what is involved in this to have a saving faith (belief)
3) at what point in one's growth in one's faith is one saved
1) what is grace? God giving something we do not deserve.
God Forgave us of our sins. Does not contain all aspects of grace
what is mercy? God not giving us something we deserve
wages of sin is death. God us his son to die on the cross to pay
the price for our sins. Does not contain all aspects of mercy
2) what is faith (one's belief)
John 3.16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
by this passage many claim that Belief in Jesus is just a mental acknowledgement of Jesus and nothing else. But is this Correct?
John 3.19-21 due to time, I'll focus on vs 21 But >>whoever does what is true >his works> whoever does the will
@@rickraybourn7456 out of context
@@jayu2551 You are correct. I'm not questioning that he went to some church of Christ somewhere. I'm sure he told the truth about that. But when he started offering his idea about "what the church of Christ people would say", I had never heard any of it. And he had the nasty (and probably) sinful habit of purposefully misdefining Greek words. It's either that - or he's just stupid and doesn't know how to use a lexicon. How he got involved with a group like this is beyond me.
I'm not COC but I want to point out that when they start talking about being born in sin at ~22 min they don't see that the Bible doesn't teach that we are born sinful. This too is a church tradition that started with Augustine. Prior to Augustine no one taught that were born guilt of Adam's sin (federal headship is a man-made doctrine) or that we inherited sin. All of that was a new idea introduced by Augustine. Instead what was taught was that sin was introduced into the world and it has a corrupting effect on us which is why all people physically die but Adam's sin and the guilt of it was not transferred to his descendants. Even God points this out in Ezekiel 18 - children are not guilty of their father's sin. However, all WILL eventually sin: "if anyone says that they haven't sinned they are a liar.
Regarding losing salvation, it is the Calvinist doctrine that causes christians to reject what the Bible plainly states. There are so many verses that plainly state that truly born-again believers can walk away from Jesus and lose out on eternal life. It is the Calvinist that is not accepting all that the Bible states but will instead explain away what it states so as to keep their doctrine. Here is just one example from Hebrews 3:12 - "Take heed BRETHERN...in DEPARTING FROM the living God." He is talking to actual believers - there is not hint that he is referring to false believers - and secondly a false believer or any unbeliever cannot DEPART FROM God. You can't depart from something that you were never a part of.
If you look at baptism, it is that bible that plainly states that a person has to be baptized FOR the remission of sin. It plainly states this in multiple locations, here is just one: Peter - "Repent and BE baptized every one of you ...FOR the remission of sins..." And then they went and got baptized. He told them what they had to do for the forgiveness of their sin and they went and did it. later in the video they go to Acts 2 but never explain what they think Peter meant by be baptized for the remission of sins and they don't point out how the people actually went and were baptized. It seems like the entire crowd misunderstood Peter when he said be baptized...oh wait they actually believed what he said and went and were baptized.
Regarding Psalm 51 we know that David is speaking metaphorically because in verse 4 he states that he sinned against God and God alone. Didn't he sin against Bathsheba? Didn't he sin against Uriah? Didn't he sin against Israel by betraying their trust? Then two verses later he states that he can be spiritually healed by a hyssop plant. Are we to believe that a hyssop plant can heal us spiritually?! He's obviously speaking metaphorically. Verse 5 is right in the middle between these two. David is not teaching doctrine in verse 5 but writing poetically regarding the severity of his sin.
Calvinists do no differently than the COC - they teach doctrines that they are told are supported by the Bible but really are a result of the twisting of the Bible that was brought in by Augustine or the Reformers but didn't exist within the church prior to either...however, their teaching did exist within the pagan realm of gnosticism and stoicism, which Augustine was part of prior to being a christian. Calvinists just tend to be ignorant of church history prior to Augustine.
Please try to lay aside whatever qualms you have with what you call Calvinism, and actually engage the Scriptures, in context. After all, Romans 5, for instance, was written way before Augustine ever came along. People can try to disprove God's Word by calling it Calvinism all day long, but despite such desperate attempts, sacred Scripture is still set in stone and cannot be broken.
Although Pelagian cults, such as the CoC, will acknowledge Bible passages that declare sin is not imputed where there’s no law, they will twist them to their own destruction, by suggesting that Adam’s sin could not have been imputed to the entire human race because God’s law hadn’t been set in stone yet.
However, they fail to realize the blatantly obvious fact that sin WAS imputed to Adam, which happens to be irrefutable, biblical proof that there WAS indeed a rule of righteousness to be obeyed, even BEFORE God’s written law ever came about (e.g. Rom. 3:31; 4:15 and 5:13). Therefore, the fact that sin WAS imputed to humanity’s representative head, despite there being no written law, further proves and clarifies Apostle Paul’s point that Adam’s sin WAS imputed to all of his posterity.
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death
passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Rom. 5:12).
Adam’s sin guilt was imputed to all mankind, or else we wouldn’t have needed for it, and our own personal sin guilt, to be imputed to Jesus at the cross. And, this very same principle reveals to us why we desperately need Jesus’ righteousness imputed to our account, in order for the imputation of Adam’s sin guilt, and our own personal sin guilt, to be cancelled out. If there was no inherited sin guilt in Adam, then why would there be a need for us to be in Christ in order to escape condemnation (Rom. 8:1)? We will be waiting patiently for your answer.
NOWHERE does Christ or his apostles say any ONE THING saves us "ALONE". You ADD to God's word by saying "ALONE". Do an honest search into this and you will clearly see that it is a combination of things that works to saves us. Grace, faith, and obedience to his will are ALL said to save us. Repentance is said to save us. Calling on the name of the Lord is said to save us. Baptism is said to save us. Now you read for yourself and see if it says any of these ALONE saves us. The bible explicitly says THEY ALL DO. I take the word of Christ and his apostles as a whole and not as isolated passages competing against each other but working with each other to explain the awesome salvation/justification and our response to God's scheme of redemption. God is the only righteous judge and we should leave the rest up to him. Stop adding or taking away from his word people! I say this in the love of Christ.
Faith alone is heresy
@@Nicholas-Michael The CoC teaches that faith + works = justification
The Bible teaches that true faith = justification + works
There's an eternal difference between the two.
Nowhere in the bible does it say all those things have to be done in conjunction to be saved either. Sounds like the works of pharisees to suggest it. I do wonder if there are levels of importance though. Surely faith supersedes immersion by water
I have also never heard anyone say that a baptism didn’t take. That doesn’t even make sense. I do however know people who have been re-baptized when they believe they were baptized for the wrong reason
And the wrong reason to be baptized is when one attempts to make use of a sacrament to save oneself. If one is baptized in order to get saved, then it becomes an impure, meaningless and defiled work of the flesh that God has no part in. An unregenerate act that attempts to appease God’s wrath, instead of believing Jesus has already done that for us, becomes a witness against us. So unless God first purifies our hearts by faith, nothing we do will be pure in His sight (Titus 1:15). It is dangerous ground when one tries to go through an outward performance in order to try to bribe God into saving them, for that is an abomination to Him!
The more I read of your comments the more I have to believe you do not have a grasp on the COC teachings or you are part of a rouge group that doesn’t adhere to the teachings of any COC I know of. The correct reasons to be baptized is simply and well laid out in scripture. You have to explain away baptism in every other faith. Jesus himself commanded it in the great commission. We are baptized into one body not baptized into membership of the baptist or Methodist or any other denomination. Baptized into Christ.
@@nickrussell8029 who cares about the nutty COC teaching. Care about the true Gospel. Repent and be converted and stop making asinine arguments that show no fruits of salvation.
@@this9128 your statement is conjecture. I could say the same in reference to your beliefs. Consider practicing humility or do you not believe in that either?
Baptism is a beautiful, symbolic ordinance to be once enjoyed by all who believe in the sufficiency of Jesus’ perfect sacrifice. Whereas those who say it’s a requirement for salvation, mar its beauty by implying His grace and sacrifice wasn’t enough.
Therefore, the person going through the ordinances must know and believe beyond all shadow of a doubt that their salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus’ perfect righteousness alone as their only hope of God’s acceptance, or else the ordinance becomes a witness against them.
I was raised in COC, but I never believed they were right, they have brainwashed themselves by saying they are the only ones going to heaven, that makes them to be righteous over everyone, my grandparents were the most Godly ppl that lived, but the COC said they were going to hell because they were not COC, that burned me from them, they believe that believing is a work, I told brother that I can do nothing for my salvation because faith comes my believing through faith, they only read the Bible by how they believe not how it's written, they like to pick verses out of context to prove their beliefs, 1 John 5:13 we can know we have eternal life because we know who we believed in! Enjoyed your podcast 👍
I am a preacher at a church of Christ. The majority of what I have been seeing in the comments revolves around a guilt of not doing enough or not being righteous enough for God. I'm truly sorry you have felt this way and can confirm it is a legitimate problem in the COC. This is because they have a very bad understanding of the Biblical doctrine of Justification. They are either ignorant of it or they are afraid that the imputed righteousness takes away from their obedience. When problems with understanding Justification are present, the whole church suffers. Traditionally, the COC has rejected the imputed righteousness of Christ. I recently took it apon myself to write a book called Christ, Our Righteousness, Rediscovering The Doctrine of Justification. When it comes out I am hoping to make many people wake up and find true peace with God even though I've already gotten pushback. I'm a nobody, but if I can help then I will. Please pray they are receptive of it when it comes out later 2021 or early 2022.
I want a copy!
I pray you have success. Even if you only reach a few it will be worth it.
If you are a preacher in the church of a Christ, why do you sound so distant and separate from them in your references to “ they”. It makes it sound like you do not consider yourself to be part of “they”.
@@wtillett243 I do consider myself to be a part. The "they" was just a way to distinguish between those who believe all of Justification and those who have a hard time accepting it. Poor choice of words on my part.
Hi. What is your stance on water baptism in relation to salvation?
Being a member of a church of Christ I can say I personally was very confused by the views given by the man who was former a member of the churches of Christ. I hadn’t heard of most these views. I’ve lived in Oklahoma by whole life and went to church there since being a Christian. I’ve visited churches in Arkansas, Texas, Florida, and South Carolina. One cup, non-institutional, no class, and cups churches and never encountered 90% of what was said in any of them. (No saying it doesn’t represent well the views of some churches, I just haven’t spoken with any or read any material from any of them that this represents well.)
I love the podcast and I was excited to hear y’all’s thoughts. It was refreshing to see that y’all considered the Way a cult. It is only consistant. I am constantly confused by people thinking we are the same faith with such big theological differences between us. I was raised Southern Baptist and most of them think we still are. It’s a sign of the times I guess, thinking so little of truth.
Thanks for your time! May we all find unity of the Faith!
Maybe you weren’t paying attention.
Idk where you are in Oklahoma but if you are near the OKC metro I would encourage you to visit the Spencer COC. Pastor Davis will blow your mind with his depth of knowledge.
@@this9128 Or maybe the information is just inaccurate? Lol
@@nickrussell8029 Thanks for reaching out. I’ll try to visit sometime.
1 Corinthians 1:14
“I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;” “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”Psalms 51:5 We are born with a sin nature
My mom's side of the family is church of Christ. This will be interesting to hear. I've had quite close interaction and some attendance for obvious reasons.
We sin because we are sinners. It's not 'we are sinners because we sin'
I was approached by guy that said he went to a church of Christ in my area while I was out with my family doing some Christmas shopping tonight. He asked if I would be interested in coming to a Bible study. I said sure and he proceeded to say that he would like to get my number so he could contact me and that I could come over to his house sometime to have dinner with him and his wife. I have never looked into that church before but as soon as I got home I did some researching and saw a bunch of red flags. I had to come over and see what the awesome people at Apologia had to say about it all. I saw online that the church of Christ is anti-calvanist and me I am pro-calvanist..
“Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.” Ezekiel 36:25
Do you think that's literal water?
Interesting episode. I can definitely see how those arguments would work against those steeped in Church of Christ teachings. However, none of those arguments invalidate or cause any issue for those who believe in baptismal regeneration. I applaud your work in bringing people out of the terrible system of works righteousness the CoC puts people under.
do you read the Bible?
@@tomcollins3972 Yes, I read the Bible. It plainly and clearly teaches the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. From the beginning of Christian history Christians have always believed in baptismal regeneration because the text clearly teaches it. The text is so clear concerning baptismal regeneration that zero writings exist speaking against it for the first 1500 years of Christendom.
Into what church were believers added (Acts 2:47) after being baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27)?
The Church of Christ (Romans 16:16).
♥️
Jesus is not coming back for multiple churches that teach different doctrines and false plans of salvation (Galatians 1:8). He is not a polygamist. He is coming back for His one Bride.
💜
There is no authority for denominations in Scripture (division). All who die in a denomination die in a lost condition.
He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.”
Matthew 15:13
@@tomcollins3972 Into what church were believers added (Acts 2:47) after being baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27)?
The Church of Christ (Romans 16:16).
♥️
Jesus is not coming back for multiple churches that teach different doctrines and false plans of salvation (Galatians 1:8). He is not a polygamist. He is coming back for His one Bride.
💜
There is no authority for denominations in Scripture (division). All who die in a denomination die in a lost condition.
He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.”
Matthew 15:13
Is Baptism for the Remission of Sins? Aaron Gallagher & Trey Fisher Debate/Discussionczcams.com/video/r2bJElZwKx0/video.html
I came to Christ in the church of Christ 7 and a half years ago and spent 4 years there both preaching and teaching before God took me out of that group and into Biblical Christianity. I felt like the COC wasn’t fairly represented theologically in some parts this video and because of that if I still was in the COC I wouldn’t have received the criticism given here. I praise God that He opened my eyes up to the error in the COC and got me out when He did. Where they did get it right is on how they emotionally treat people and some of their attitudes but it is a highly mixed bag in that area.
I felt like they acted like the COC didn’t take scripture seriously which isn’t true at all. If you talk to someone from that group your gonna get a hit with a barrage of scripture and not always in an eisegetical way like with most cults. They try to go verse by verse through scripture and have a really high view and reverence for scripture although interpreting some very important issues in error.
19:55 on, I never once heard in my time in the Church of Christ that human beings are born perfect. The teaching was that we have a natural proclivity to sin and a nature that leads to sin but weren’t guilty until we actually sinned against God ourselves. The proof text used for that idea was Ezekiel 14:4 and 20.
““Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.”
Ezekiel 18:4
“The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”
Ezekiel 18:20
There were other problems with how their theology was represented as well. I wouldn’t put the Church of Christ as a whole on the level of a cult like the LDS or JW or others but definitely error and in some cases can be highly cultish but the diversity is so big they’re are definitely people in it who are saved and genuine brothers and sisters in Christ mixed with some false teachers as well.
The gospel was given to me by someone from the church of Christ, and I was saved. I never heard anything like this before that they are bringing up which surprises me!
Well said, this video was a misrepresentation from my 30+ years of experience.
@@mr400meter Sadly, the CoC makes water baptism and the gospel synonymous.
@@poseyperspective3591 I was in the CoC for over 30 years, but thankfully I now have over 17 years under my belt as a true, born-again believer.
@@christrescuedme2182 What is your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:32 regarding Peter's claim that baptism now saved believers?
47:50 ignorance does not = innocence. I use that spreading analogy all the time brother it’s great!
Another misunderstanding on the part of your “expert” the COC does not teach that your works can save you. I have never heard that in the dozens of COC I have attended or visited. But only that works is a manifestation of your faith. A faith without works is not faith.
YES, thank you!!
Of course you’re going to say that. Catholics say it too. It’s what you practice and emphasize though.
I was deeply involved in the CoC for over 30 years. And sadly, it's system of works is safeguarded by theological term-twisting. Instead of being taught that Jesus satisfied God’s law perfectly on behalf of His people, it teaches that Jesus merely lowered the bar so that anyone can just slip in, as long as they just try hard enough to live up to their full potential and do the best they can. They give people a false hope that they can eventually reach a degree of righteousness that God will accept. When the truth is that the only righteousness that God will accept is the imputed righteousness of Christ.
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" (Rom. 10:3).
@@christrescuedme2182 idk who taught you that Jesus has lowered the bar but again I have never heard it presented in such a way. I have to ask if that’s is your belief then are you saying all i have to do is believe and I can live like a heathen if I choose. That’s ludicrous. I promise the COC know we are all flawed. That’s laid out in literal black and white. If expecting believers to live a faithful life makes the COC a cult then I’m proud to be a part of it. I don’t know a single person who believes their works will earn their salvation.
But if Baptism is required for salvation, that is a work. That is a thing a person must do in order to be saved. Jesus did ALL that is needed for our salvation. It's a gift of grace offered to all. We just have to accept it. Anything else we do is not required for salvation but done to please/serve/obey God.
I’m afraid you guys are way too kind here. I can’t speak for all of them, but the ones I knew in my 37 years of attendance (including their private school), blaspheme the Holy Spirit & deny the diety of Christ. They ARE today’s Pharisees, knowing everything, but knowing nothing.
It is sad that the CoC always seems to get away with flying under the radar, while all other cults are given a more thorough expose.'
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
- Galatians 5:4
Thanks for all you shared. I have a CoC friend and wanted to learn more about what the church teaches and came across your CZcams video. I think the speakers brought out the points of error in a gracious but truthful way. Thank you for your ministry. May the Lord help us to minister to those who believe in false teachings!
This will not help you to know what the church teaches because these guys don’t even know.
I was raised in a CoC and am still attending one because after reading the Bible I find this particular CoC to be theologically sound.
Does it teach that one must be baptized in order to be saved?
@@christrescuedme2182 Yes. Because we are commanded to over and over, we see the examples of that in every conversion story in the Bible, and not being baptised is just spitting in God's face through disobedience.
@@colepriceguitar1153 Thanks for further confirmation that all CoC's, across the board, agree upon baptismal regeneration.
@@christrescuedme2182 Do you not believe every believer must be baptized as soon as they can after believing in Jesus?
@@colepriceguitar1153 Absolutely! But not in order to get saved.
If fighting for the faith is “not nice”, then Jesus was not nice.
I thought the Church of Christ was a soul winning denomination. They are saved born again believers and that’s all that matters. To label them a “cult” would be far fetched.
The CoC absolutely detests being called a denomination. and they do not believe that they are truly saved until they finally get to heaven.
@@christrescuedme2182 Sorry but this is a totally false statement. If you follow the requirements to become a member of Christs' church the one spoken about in the NT, then d you can know you are saved because you know you have been to the "Church", The Called OUT", The "SAVED". there is no question about not knowing whether you are saved or not.
@@sandragibby7611 Do you truly believe one is saved by going to the "Church of Christ" denomination, and following its "New Testament Pattern" ?
This is by far the best video I've ever seen on the Churches of Christ. Thank you so much!
There’s very little about this that is a true representation of any church of Christ.
Is Baptism for the Remission of Sins? Aaron Gallagher & Trey Fisher Debate/Discussionczcams.com/video/r2bJElZwKx0/video.html
@@bigzachus I went to a Church of Christ Bible study for an entire summer and I've dialogued with several friends from various Churches of Christ about these issues. I can assure you, what he said in the video is accurate. Maybe not for your particular congregation, but in general, this is what your denomination teaches with few exceptions.
I really enjoyed how the podcasters used proof texts to say everyone else is wrong and bad (and in a cult) because they (the other groups) use proof texts to say everyone else is wrong.
Care to provide an exegetical demonstration of why they were wrong to use the texts in the way that they did?
And I keep hearing them talk about the church saying they have some kind of “special knowledge”. “Truth was lost and and the church of Christ found it”. Can someone link someone saying that?
All the links you need are in my book "Christ Rescued Me from the Church of Christ" by Lee Anne Ferguson
@@christrescuedme2182 Yes, excellent book! Says it all in a way you can't misunderstand.
@@arcticfox2639 Thank you. I really needed some encouragement. This battle has really been taking its toll on me. Your prayers would also be greatly appreciated. Time seems to be running out for me to reach my CoC people.
@@christrescuedme2182 Some of my friends and family are still in that church. I love them so much, but the brainwashing is so extreme that it is impossible to break through to them. I just pray that God will break through their programming.
It is so comforting for these people to believe that salvation is in their own hands so they can control it. But then, they cannot say they are sure that they're even saved!!
Some of my family became atheists and others just became worldly and gave up on spirituality altogether. Praise God, my mother, who was CoC for 50 years came to understand the gospel! I rejoice in this!
I do believe some members in the CoC are saved, because they understand that it is not works that save them. Many of the hymns they sing teach truth, like: "What can wash away my sins?.... nothing but the blood of Jesus!"
These types of hymns are gospel messages that they accept.
Keep praying and I will include you and your loved ones in my prayers. I will do this. Pray for me also. God bless you!
@@arcticfox2639 I definitely will! Please stay in touch and keep me updated. My email address and blog is on the back of my book.
I went to a church of Christ for about a year, and they were extremely nice people quite concerned with everything religious except Christ.
How was the church not concerned with Christ?
@@Rachel299 agreed! It’s all about religion and rules, they rarely speak of the Gospel.
That describes nearly every church or denomination right now
@@CenturyofTerror Because, they have become apostate, just like the CoC.
@@CenturyofTerror you’re in the wrong denominations
The guy who said "you shouldn't be against abortion " is so far off. Abortion is murder, so any faithful church member must be against murder. While the murdered baby is going straight to paradise, the immoral act is condemned.
CoC's falsely teach that one must obey their water gospel once one has reached the mystical “age of accountability" (an Arminian doctrine found nowhere in Scripture and a culprit as to why some murder their children before they reach that “socially designated age,” thinking that will assure them salvation).
What about when David lost his child he mentions that he will see his child again in heaven?
That’s not to say the child was perfect but God sanctifies the children of believers.
@@guessable So do you believe that non-believer's babies go to hell?
@@masonskaggs1711 I don’t believe they do but I wouldn’t be able to make a good argument either way because I don’t think scripture is clear. I only know God is sovereign, just and good.
@@guessable What about when Jesus tells the disciples to not shew away the children "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
@@edshepherd3291 that’s doesn’t mean the child is sinless. In the verse after He is clear that the Kingdom is theirs because of their faith, not because of what they have done.
Being a lifelong member of the CoC, I can tell you there are vast degrees of doctrine amongst the body. I personally hold many these three gentlemen hold. Many CoCs are moving in the right direction, but there are some extreme views (cultist) still out there. I just want to be sure all of us are not lumped into the same extreme version.
If you are more strict more conservative Bible believer then you are the cult to the loose or the liberal. O.K. I am your cult but I am safe and I am right. Agape
Exactly what gospel did the thief on the cross obey according to Hebrews 4:2?
Does it concern you that you've been unable to biblically reconcile the CoC's "new terms of salvation" with Hebrews 4:2, which reveals that the gospel in the Old Testament is the SAME GOSPEL of the New Testament?
@@christrescuedme2182 You tell us. I know you're not much on answering questions, but a pro at copying and pasting. Was the thief on the cross baptized? You don't know! Was the thief on the cross a back-slidden follower of John? You don't know! Was he even a back-slidden follower of Christ? You don't know! Can you - today - be saved just like the thief, i. e. by believing and doing exactly the same thing(s) the thief did? Absolutely not. Very little is known about everyone's favorite thief, but we do know this: he did not believe in the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.
@@brendanjobe6895 How do you reconcile that view with Hebrews 4:2 and its parallel passages?
"If its not in the Bible, we don't do it." Except requiring your attendance at both Sunday services and Wednesday night Bible study lest ye be damned.
This is so far off what the COC is. It’s sad that others take the truth of what the Bible says and twist it into something it’s not. And what makes me so sad is so many people believe these guys and actual listen to them. 😢😢
Can you please explain what gospel the thief on the cross obeyed according to Hebrews 4:2?
@@christrescuedme2182 We don't know, it isn't explained in the Bible, but, it is clear that he believed that Jesus was going to establish HIS kingdom and wanted to be a part of it. This is before the establishment of what we now call His Church. We also don't know if the Thief ever heard Jesus preach over the 3 years when multitudes [thousands] of people thronged to Jesus to hear him and see his miracles performed. Jesus had the power to save and the thief professed his belief and Jesus saved him, End of Story.
@@sandragibby7611 How do you reconcile that view with what is clearly revealed in Hebrews 4:2 and its parallel passages (e.g., Isa.53:1, Jn. 12:38, Rom. 3:29-30; 10:16 and Gal. 3:6-8)?
@@christrescuedme2182 These scriptures are all speaking to the Christians except for Isaiah 53 which was a prophecy about Jesus. John was speaking about the belief and unbelief of the Christians and how easily they were swayed back to the Jewish traditions. Galatians was also speaking to the Christians in Galatia about their being '"bewitched" and going back to their prior beliefs. Vs 8 speaks about God justifying the Heathens/Gentiles. "all nations shall be blessed" Romans 3 also says that God would be including the Gentiles and the works of the "Law" will be abolished. Those would be the 613 laws that were imposed on the Jews and are still in place today. Those are the "works" that are of no use then or today.
I don't see how these verses have anything to do with the Thief on the Cross, but I was happy to provide my explanation of the verses.
@@sandragibby7611 It seems that you've completely misunderstood the question. Again, carefully notice how Isaiah, John and Paul revealed that the report of Isaiah 53 was nothing less than the pure and unadulterated gospel of Jesus Christ.
They never added baptism or any other works into the equation of salvation, for the gospel message does not include the actions of man (1 Cor. 1:17).
The sum and substance of the entire gospel is simply Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2), nothing more, nothing less. This was further confirmed by Jesus’ resurrection, which was also founded upon His death (Heb. 13:20).
Scripture makes it clear that to obey the gospel is to believe the gospel (Rom. 10:16). For the gospel is all about the Person and work of Jesus Christ, which can only be spiritually apprehended by God’s free gift of saving faith (Eph. 2:8-9).
These truths confirm that the TRUE GOSPEL was preached long BEFORE Pentecost (Gen. 3:15, Mk. 1:1-2, Acts 8:32-35, Rom. 3:29-30, 1 Cor. 10:3-4, Gal. 3:6-8, Heb. 4:2; 9:15; 10:1-4).
These truths also disprove the CoC’s baptismal regeneration interpretation of its isolated proof-texts (Mt. 28:19, Mk. 16:16, Jn. 3:5, Acts 2:38; 22:16, Rom. 6:3-4, Gal. 3:27, Col. 2:12, Tit. 3:5, 1 Pet. 3:21).
New Testament ordinances NEVER meant new terms of salvation. Changes in dispensational covenants, and their different modes of regulation, have NEVER meant changes in God’s eternal plan of redemption.
A New Covenant has NEVER meant a new gospel, but only a fuller revelation of the SAME GOSPEL, for it transcends any given dispensation, as those verses confirm.
Therefore, what was the ONLY GOSPEL that the thief on the cross could have ever possibly obeyed?
I was church of Christ as a child and went to a church of Christ college. I was a member from 1985 ish, until 2002. Let's just say that I am glad I am out.
Thank you so much!!!
After I got saved, despite myself, I just wanted to get baptized somewhere. Neighbors are CofC preachers and invited me to church. Dude I could tell you some stuff, very conservative small town Kentucky. They would never believe my testimony and they don’t care. I escaped. They sucked the joy right out of me. And yet of course I still love them. I am sad for them. And I am only not shunned completely because they are my neighbors. But for the most part they despise reformed theology which I found after, oh I dunno, reading the Bible 😆
I can totally relate to what you are saying. I was in the CoC's in Kentucky for over 30 years. After I was saved I was disowned and disinherited by my whole family. We are so infested with CoC's here, and they've even infiltrated other denominations here with their heresies. So it is so very difficult to live around such hostility coming from those who hate the true gospel of God's grace.
Well communicated. Spent many years in the Church of Christ community. A lot of good Jesus believing folk but doctrine is synonymous with theology which allows accentuation on the some while ignoring the whole.
@@12111scott I agree. There are many of God's sheep in the CoC who are led astray, but I know Jesus will lead them out when it's time. He did me.
Sparooski,
"which I found after, oh I dunno, reading the Bible"
cracked me up :-)
@Yvonne They told me God couldn't hear my prayers until after I got baptized. That might explain their attitude, partially. Of course I knew that was completely wrong. I wanted to tell them what happened, my testimony, but it was obvious they couldn't care less.
What's up with the 5,000 commercials?! Need to fix your advertising preferences, super distracting. Keep up the good work brothers!
Yes really there were sooooooo many commercials ugh.
So, is this specifically about the Boston Movement, or not? I realize they’re very similar, especially in the only church going to heaven, but I never knew that the Boston Movement taught “born perfect.” I’m not trying to split hairs, just want to know what we’re talking about. I went to a Boston Movement CoC in Indianapolis in the early 90’s.
I went to a church he same people were getting saved every Sundaynight
No they weren't.
@@HoytRoberson your pagan magic water ritual won't save you only God saves. Im sorry you need externalism because you lack the Spirit :(, praying that changes. The best gift ever
@@PurePuritan apparently, you haven't read your Bible. Baptism was normative in coming to God and is described as both saving and resulting in being raised with Christ.
Hoping you learn how to read one of these days.
@@HoytRoberson except when ppl recieve the Spirit before baptism. Like me. Sorry!
@@PurePuritan people received the Spirit - at least manifestations of it - in the NT. So what - assuming you actually did? Please do some actual exegesis of the practice of baptism as it is discussed in the NT. Then come back and we'll see if you learned anything.
I'm somewhat newly reformed and I would like some clarification. It sounded like they almost said that "baptism now saves", 1 Peter 3:21, but didn't. I been reading it real slowly, and cannot see how it does not save.
Baptism does not "save" as in it doesn't provide justification for you before God. Salvation (as expressed in the reformed faith) is clearly by grace through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). Baptism is simply a sign of outward obedience as well as being included in the covenant community.
In 1 Peter 3:20, Noah’s family was “saved by water” only in the sense that the reality of their salvation became obvious through the trial of water, for they were enabled by God to pass safely through the destructive waters by being in the Ark, which represented Christ. The word “by” in this verse is translated “through” in the original Greek. The water itself was a means of God’s judgment, not a means of salvation.
I think the parenthetical statement clarifies this. Here's the verse using the NKJV:
"There is also an antitype which now saves us-baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
Do you see how that parenthetical statement reveals that baptism is linked to the "good answer" of one's heart towards God in faith?
@@lai_strength_training by saying baptism is “simply” a sign of outward obedience as well as being part of the covenant “community” suggests we have a choice of outward obedience and being joined with the covenant. Faith is that power that gives us the ability to “obey from the heart” that form of doctrine that was delivered to you. Baptism cannot be excluded from the doctrine that was handed down. And since we obey from the heart, it is more than an outward sign. It involves every part of us and the Holy Spirit is involved as well. Nothing physical about it except that we submit as we are buried.
@@aaronbeverly4711 The assumption in the CoC was that a physical coming to the front of the church, to soothe a guilty conscience, was automatically equivalent to a spiritual coming to Christ. This was due to an extreme emphasis placed on the will of man, and the idea that man’s choice has the final say as to whether one is saved or not.
Once Jesus reveals Himself to one's heart and mind, they are finally able to apprehend the gospel of His grace, by faith. Then their conscience is finally purged from dead works so that one can then serve the living God (Heb. 9:14).
One must first be justified by faith, then and only then can they begin the process of sanctification. And baptism is often, but not always, one of the first fruits of sanctification. Sadly, the CoC confuses justification and sanctification, just as Romanism does. And for them to put the cart before the horse is to glorify man and his works, rather than God alone.
“God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.” (Gal. 6:14).
The heart (which is the seat of our conscience, thoughts, emotions and choices), must be made anew by a supernatural act of God, due to the effects of being spiritually deadened by sin. Although we don’t have the ability to do this ourselves, it does not excuse us from being responsible toward God, for we are still fully conscious, self-aware and actively rebellious. He does not lower His standard just because we are fallen. This is why we need the Savior, Who lived up to God’s perfect standard of righteousness perfectly.
I hope this helps. God bless.
You guys are not helping people here but deceiving them in false analysis! I'm quite sure that most of you that left the Church of Christ weren't regularly attending the assembly and so you probably don't have a clear understanding of what the Bible calls “THE TRUTH!”
I was in the CoC for over 30+ years, and I can honestly say that it is a cult.
I was a member of the international church of christ in Manchester England. They told us that they was the only people saved and leaving them is leaving God. They also appointed a discipler who pried into every aspect of your life and reported on you to the ministry. They also directed your life and told you where to work , study , live etc.
To be fair that is a different group of churches all together.
@@carterbaker9176 The international church of christ was founded by Kip mc Kean from California. He had been a lifelong member of the church of christ in USA and he split from them to be a leader of his own cult.
international church of christ is NOT the Church of Christ.
@@WebDominatorSEO They both still have the exact same soteriology.
Do you happen to know if the Fellowship of Churches of Christ is the same thing? My local church is part of this group and I'm debating whether it's worth attending or not?
Psalm 51. David is only talking about 𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗼𝘄𝗻 𝘀𝗶𝗻. There is not one iota or mention of “original” or inherited sin. This Hebrew poetical writing is called 𝙝𝙮𝙥𝙚𝙧𝙗𝙤𝙡𝙚. It’s not literal, it’s 𝙛𝙞𝙜𝙪𝙧𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙫𝙚. Note:
“Blot out 𝗠𝗬 transgression” (vs. 1); “Wash 𝗠𝗘 thoroughly from 𝗠𝗬 iniquity, and cleanse 𝗠𝗘 from 𝗠𝗬 sin” (vs. 2); “ 𝗜 acknowledge 𝗠𝗬 transgressions, and 𝗠𝗬 sin is always before 𝗠𝗘” (vs. 3); “Against You, You only, 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗜 sinned” (vs. 4); etc.
There is not even the slightest allusion to some kind of original sin. In fact, it was from his own sin and transgression that the psalmist desired to be freed.
Amen Brother!
Do you believe you were made in the image of God?
@@christrescuedme2182 You were born pure just like God is pure
@@MarkOBrienmarkspage1 That is not what I asked. I asked if you believe you were made in the image of God.
@@christrescuedme2182 You know the answer to that. We were all made in God's image which is pure which means we are not born sinful or corrupted. Corruption comes from a personal choice of sin and that's explained in both covenants
This isn't representative of the churches of Christ I've interacted with _at all._ You do have to be careful not to extrapolate too much your experiences, depending on how many churches you've engaged with. The churches of Christ, isofar as they are bound together _at all,_ are only bound together by a belief that Christians shouldn't have any denomination smaller than "Christian," and that the Bible is the guide for how things ought to be done.
You also have to be wary that there are churches that could be considered "fundamentalist" that mainline churches typically refer to as "anti-churches" (though anti-churches would consider that a pejorative). These churches tend to have a works focus, and don't allow kitchens in their buildings, or age-divided Sunday School, or church camps, or missions (or anything else that would involve coordination with other churches or the outside world). They are the churches that are _most_ likely to not even have an identifying street or city in the name of their church. Just "CHURCH OF CHRIST" on the building.
The International Church of Christ is also a totally separate entity, and I'd honestly say more reminiscent of Mormons, JWs, etc. It has an odd emphasis on "recruiting" people for conversion. Almost like an MLM, and definitely kind of on the cult.
I've been struggling to understand hereditary original sin, and this discussion didn't help at all. How can you be a sinner without having sinned? How can you sin without being a moral agent?
I totally agree that babies are born with a propensity towards sin, but that's not the same as sinning. If you guys are saying that faith in Christ is necessary to be saved, and that we are born as sinners, then every single baby who dies must be in hell. Do you really accept that?
Although babies are innocent of volitional sin (Jer. 2:34), they have inherent sin, or else no babies would ever die. “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 6:23). We are all are born guilty of Adam’s sin, not just our own sinning. This is why Jesus “shall save His people from their sins” (Mt. 1:21). He only saves sinners, the ungodly….those without any spiritual strength or power of their own (Rom. 5:6).
We are all born with a fallen, creaturely will that’s in bondage to sin, because Adams sin was imputed to us, for he was humanity’s federal head (Rom. 5:12, 19). So we are not born sinless or neutral. Yet, if the CoC was right, and babies are born without sin, then that would mean Heaven is full of those whom Jesus never died for....because He only died for sinners. So the CoC is actually the one disqualifying babies from heaven, because the only humans in heaven are those whom Jesus has saved from sin.
The Eastern Orthodox concept of ancestral sin is closer to the mark than the Catholic/Reformed version.
Yes thank you for pointing this out. Also, according to Calvinism, it is not only true that these babies go to hell, but it is Gods Sovereign will that that happens. The god of Calvinism is also responsible for all sin, since it is his "hidden" or "secret" will (including abortion). So all you have to ask a calvinist is "Is it God's will that babies are aborted?" If they are consistent in their theology, they have to say yes. Thankfully most aren't that hardcore, but i think many think calvinism just entails God being sovereign and dont want to say otherwise at the risk of blaspheming.
The irony is: This is yet an example of the very thing they are attempting to preach against. EVERY different sect of Christianity believes they have the whole Bible exegeted (sp?) perfectly. Sorry reformation cultists - we all have something wrong. 🤷♀️
Go check out Jesse Morrell on Open Theism, the Atonement and why Calvinism is actually derived from gnosticism (another irony since they referred to this very cult in this video). He may not have all the answers- but i was about sold on apologia and the calvinist stance until I came across his stuff. I still think they are doing some good things with End Abortion Now and have gotten a lot out of some of their sermons (like on baptism and proper exegesis of Matthew 24/Daniel 9 - which agrees with the CoC btw!) But the doctrines of grace/calvinist stuff falls apart under heavy scrutiny.
We all have to be stripped of what we uphold as inerrant doctrines and the traditions with which we've been raised. The True Church will be built of many members of all sorts of different congregations- all of which had people sitting nearby in pews who weren't really saved. You can know God and Christ and the Spirit because of and/or in spite of your surroundings.
@@chelseabarker2250 not true, we believe Jesus grace covers before a certain level of accountability. But whatever makes you feel better about having a man centered theology
@@PurePuritan I'm not sure what you mean but sounds inconsistent with calvinism - which I'm okay with. And the man centered thing give me a break theres not a christian alive who believes they are saving themselves whether they believe in faulty calvinism or not. I dont like that phrase being thrown around. Its a lot like a woke person trying to end the conversation on "you're just a racist!" It's divisive so I would recommend not parroting james white and the rest who cant defend their own theology because its actually false unbeknownst to most of its followers. But like you said there is accountability. On our part. We have conditional security - its salvation on Gods terms. So long as we are IN Christ we are saved.. the same way that Noah was ON the ark so he was saved. If he wouldn't have been on the ark he would have perished with the rest of the world. If we aren't in Christ we will too. Its not a one time decision. We must stay on the boat till we die. Blessings!
I don’t know if the owners of this channel have control over it, but there are so many ads on this video that I can hardly watch it. And some of the ads are not exactly moral.
That being said, thank you for this video. I have learned a lot. I have friends in the church of Christ and now I understand why they are always pushing me to believe the way they do and seem so worried that I’m going to hell.
The creators chose to monetize or not. CZcams determines the ads. Even if the creator choses not to monetize ie. profit from the ads CZcams will still run ads and keep all the advertising money for themselves. There are ways to avoid the ads that involve changing the speed the video plays at or fast forwarding then rewinding the video. Personally I let the video play through and hopefully who Im supporting gets some ad money. I can just turn down the volume for the ads. If ungodly companies wind up paying to spread the Gospel well then the jokes on them, Im not buying their junk no matter how much money the spend trying to manipulate me.
I'm a member of the Church of Christ and i need to preface by saying im not trying to be disrespectful or offensive, because the video and the people in it are not trying to be disrespectful nor offensive but it seems like some of the things we teach or believe is a little misunderstood by the guys in this podcast.
I just started the video. I havent reached very far but so far i can say we dont think that we are protestant evangelists,
we also don't believe thats salvation is through works we believe that if you love God you would obey him and do what he wants you to do, if you fail to do what he wants you to do thats ok you asl for forgiveness and you try to do better going forward but in general if you love him you'll try to live to please him, so we teach the way the bible tells us to please him so that you know how to please him because ypu love him. (I hope that makes sense)
And the opposite is true if we dont believe in nor love him then we dont care about what pleases him we just do our own thing whether our own thing seems to be "good" or "bad"
Also there was a question asked about why teach kids tin Sunday school even if they are born sinless we have to teach kids how to be good because eventually they will start to be conscious and think for themselves we need to make sure that when that happens they have a firm foundation of God and the gospel so that they can continue to grow that way, instead of being left to their own devices. We have to teach them how to make good choices, we have to teach them their origin (Genesis) amd their goal (serving God and not ourselves, and Heaven).
Thanks for sharing. I understand what you're saying, especially about feeling misunderstood, for I was in the CoC myself for over 30+years. The confusion is often due to an overarching assumption in the CoC concerning all the Bible passages that have to do with man's works of obedience. The CoC promotes those passages as a "prescription" for salvation, rather than a "description" of how a truly saved person will live to obey God in virtue of their eternal union with Christ.
I have a friend who has attended Church of Christ churches for most of her adult life.She has always claimed to me that she doesn't believe everything they teach i.e. that you have to be baptized to be saved.But after watching this I'm thinking I need to talk to her more about what she is hearing from the pulpit in her church and how much of possible wrong teaching she has been absorbing.This was a GREAT episode.
They didn’t represent CoC very well as a whole. Check out the unashamed podcast if you want base CoC. czcams.com/video/kKXxzGReegY/video.html
@@poseyperspective3591 Wow. If people can get their best CoC theology from the duck, duck, goose gurus, that pretty much says it all! Lol
I watched the "unashamed" podcast on the one where Phil met with the Pope's emissary. VERY informative. Phil even admitted they were both preaching the same "gospel." SO TRUE!!... (baptismal regeneration).
study this first or after
Eph 2.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith.
Some of the questions we need to focus on is
1) what is grace and mercy since they are linked together
2) what is faith (belief) & what is involved in this to have a saving faith (belief)
3) at what point in one's growth in one's faith is one saved
1) what is grace? God giving something we do not deserve.
God Forgave us of our sins. Does not contain all aspects of grace
what is mercy? God not giving us something we deserve
wages of sin is death. God us his son to die on the cross to pay
the price for our sins. Does not contain all aspects of mercy
2) what is faith (one's belief)
John 3.16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
by this passage many claim that Belief in Jesus is just a mental acknowledgement of Jesus and nothing else. But is this Correct?
John 3.19-21 due to time, I'll focus on vs 21 But >>whoever does what is true >his works> whoever does the will
If you want to hear what the Church of Christ believes, read God's Word not the doctrine of men. In other words, read your Bible and don't listen to these fellas.
@@christrescuedme2182 Any church that preaches adding anything to faith in Jesus Christ to being saved including water baptism they are teaching a false gospel.(Edit)And I know what Apologia Church believes so if you think Phil would've told a Pope's emissary that they both teach the same gospel that includes baptismal regeneration either you misunderstood what he said or you're not telling the truth.Phil would have never said that.)
Can you do a video on the Gnostic Trinity. And how that was disputed in the early church?
Many people in this comment section rightly say that this video does not fully accurately represent the view of COC doctrines.
However, I can attest that the ICOC is still alive and well, and still teaches many of the false doctrines that this video addresses. Things like being baptized in order to receive forgiveness. Things like exclusivity from other churches (remnants of "one true church" claims from the past). People are still inflicted by the law, with little knowledge of the grace of God on the cross.
I just left the Boston Church of Christ after two years of attending. This church is manipulative and does not teach correct theology in many ways. Many members know this but are too scared to leave because they feel they are undereducated in the bible (the leaders have authority and people assume they understand the bible better then them) or because they've been indoctrinated to believe that other churches practice "easy believism".
Decent video. Thanks for the upload.
This is not the CoC that I know. 😐
Then perhaps you need to get to know them better by asking some questions.
When you guys mention Pentecostals, I know you're speaking of Oneness groups like the UPC or PAW... but please keep in mind that the VAST majority of Pentecostals worldwide are Trinitarian, and not "cultish" like the Oneness groups. Most of us believe just as you do, aside from some differences dealing with soteriology and cessationism (and like Paul, I would rather speak 5 understood words than a thousand in an unknown tongue). And just for future reference, for the love of all that's good and kind, please don't lump us in with the charismatic bunch, with their false prophecies, false teachers, flag-waving and animal noises.
Those of us who have escaped from oneness apostolic groups like UPCI know exactly who they are talking about. We know it's not you.
Actually, if you differ with these guys on soteriology, you''re "cultish" because you know, theology matters and you have to agree with them.
Any "faith in Christ" OUTSIDE of *the accepted traditional faith" is considered a cult. Faith that does not include obedience to be saved is the key doctrine of the "cult of traditional Christianity" which ironically, puts all other beliefs in Christ in "the kingdom of the cults" because we reject their false belief that true faith "doesn't" include obedience to be saved.
Exactly! I am a Trinitarian Pentecostal.
@@HoytRoberson on the essentials
So IF coc believes one is sinless before the law.. how do they respond to Cain and Abel? Or in the days of Noah , why did God destroy all mankind or the Israelites while Moses was up the mountain receiving the 10 commandments from God?
I had a CoC friend in San Antonio, who, with his wife had a great bus ministry for their church. I later was in the house of what was obviously CoC member (by literature he had). I told him about my friend’s bus ministry. His reply: bus ministries are not mentioned in the Bible!
that's them. They literally go strictly by the bible, but if they are strictly going by the bible they would sell their property and give the money to the poor. They say that's what the first century christians done. They gave their crops and livestock to church to help the poor
That’s just weird .. not at all representative of any Church of Christ I’ve ever been to - it’s basically Baptist
@@BlakeAlexander12 Church of Christ is not basically Baptist. Baptist believe in saying the Sinner's Prayer and asking Jesus into your heart as your personal savior; none of this is in the Bible. Read Acts 8:35-39 and note what needs to be done when Jesus is preached. The Baptists believe one is saved by faith only and that contradicts James 2:24 which says NOT by faith only,