A Look Back at the Dead Puck Era, the NHL Cycle Between Defense or Offense First
Vložit
- čas přidán 25. 03. 2024
- Hey all and I wanted to discuss this today as defensive teams have started to find success in games where they limit scoring chances at both ends of the ice. We have seen this before, so could we see it again with further expansion?
Join this channel to get access to perks:
/ @thehockeyguy
Join us on our discord to chat hockey, talk with others during the game, share pet pictures, and more.
/ discord
Order jerseys from Ben H Sports while saving 10% off the listed eBay prices by sending him an email regarding jerseys you spot in his listings. ben.hoogenband@yahoo.ca Just tell him Shannon sent you.
Support The Hockey Guy via Patreon / thehockeyguy
/ youtubehockeyguy
Instagram: thgshannon and thg_cats
Spoutible: spoutible.com/TheHockeyGuy
TheHockeyGuy.yt@gmail.com
Contact me via snail mail at:
The Hockey Guy
PO Box 15038 Seven Oaks PO
Abbotsford, BC
V2S 8P1
In the USA:
Shannon Skanes
1125 Fir Avenue
Suite 119
Blaine, WA 98230 - Sport
The same year Lidstrom started the whole league's goal average dropped, and shortly after he retired the average in goals went up, coincidence?
Yes. He's only one player.
I think not!
The perfect human
@@justinhenderson4901 That's pretty ridiculous.
@@peterolbrisch8970Take a joke Peter.
The no line change after icing is one of the best rule changes in hockey.
First team I saw really playing the dead puck trap and being effective with it was the 92 Penguins, during the playoffs. When they had a lead late in the game, they'd just shut it down and the other team couldn't penetrate their zone. They ended up winning the last 11 games on their way to the cup. But what really put the trap over wasn't the Devils winning the cup, but the Florida Panthers in their 3rd season with a mediocre line up making it to the finals. Every other team looked at that and saw how far you could go if you got the system down right. Other second rate teams that used the trap & a hot goalie to get to the finals were Washington, Carolina, the Ducks and my own Flames. None of them won the cup but they went further than they should have.
If you’re talking about the ‘06 canes, unfortunately for my Oilers, they did win the cup
2002 canes not 06
@@Killi0naire93 Yeah, the Archie Irbe Canes not the Cam Ward Canes.
It's insane the amount of times Jagr is on that list - and that he's still playing hockey. Got to love that man
Went to a Rangers game with my wife a few weeks ago, and a dude with his Czech Republic jersey and his friends took a picture of him in front of the ice chanting "Jagr! Jagr!" It was actually amazing, since Jagr hasn't played with the Rangers in nearly 20 years.
As Tuuka Rask used to say, " I'll be glad to wear smaller equipment, just make the skaters go back to wood sticks". People tend to forget how composite sticks changed the game.
Selänne weeping in Finland
It was teemau selanne not pat lafontaine who score 76
He might’ve been thinking of mogilny
The fact that this vid comes out the day after the Kings locked down the 'nucks for 50 min cannot be a coincidence :)
And we're all grateful cuz we got a cool history video out of it.
He really hated that game, didn't he?
@@nolananderson4782wasn't that game, just the style of hockey played. Not sure if you remember the dead puck era, but it was terrible to watch.
That was due to the bad ice in Vancouver. Sluggish ice was the reason why the more skilled players struggled.
@@Dub23zero that's some primo copium you've got there
As much as it was a disaster to lose an entire season it was kind of needed. It brought about rule changes that boosted scoring. That 03-04 season is an abomination in how low the scoring was.
That era was the cure for insomnia
I loved the "Dead Puck Era." Watching forwards get outclassed by defensemen and goalies was a lot of fun.
You must enjoy watching paint dry. It was a terrible time to be a fan.
I think you meant to put Mogilny and Selanne for 76 goals in 92-93. LaFontaine only had 53 goals that year.
That is the biggest error ive seen Shannon make, how does he forget Selanne's rookie year?
@@ScarecrOmegaHe doesn't script his videos, it's pretty free flow and it's just a hicup.
But like 190 or 199 points.
@@bobsmith962 Lemieux still had the Art Ross with 160. LaFontaine finished 12 behind with 148.
@@bobsmith962 That's not even close. Google NHL scoring leaders 2023 2024. Then scroll down till you find quantum hockey. Press on the icon that shows the year. Then scroll down and pick the year. The only person whoever got close to Gretzky's 200 points was Mario, you should know that.
They should implement a "back-rink violation" for OT, similar to the NBA rule of back court violation. Once you have possession of the puck and cross the red center line, you're not allowed back on your side of it unless the puck first touches a player from the other team or a whistle stoppage.
How do you restart? Face-off? Give to opposing team goalie? Interesting, but hard to implement and probably too many stoppages.
bad idea. 3 on 3 OT is perfection and nothing about it should ever change
@@diggsfather Yeah I don't think it's perfect but it's still good. I don't mind the possession cycling back to the d zone because usually the team is attacking a few moments later. 3 on 3 OT is usually exciting. It's never going to be ALWAYS exciting regardless of how many rules you change.
@@johnhaley9706I’d say a faceoff in the violating teams’ defensive zone.
@@johnhaley9706 Probably D-zone face-off like with icing
For me, the worst part about the dead puck era were the countless horrific crosschecks that would never get called, especially during the playoffs. Dudes' spleens, kidneys, and livers took a punishing back then. All the star players were limping around trying to catch their breath due to getting their internal organs assaulted.
I used to love watching Forsberg barrel his way through opposing players. The dead puck Era was awesome for us Avs fans.
Imagine what he would be like today! Unstoppable!
I liked the idea of increasing the width of the bluelines, which directly increases the size of all 3 zones without increasing the size of the total ice surface.
Thank you for your daily uploads, Shannon! Your insight into these topics are priceless. Thanks for making my day off just so much better! :) Greets from NB
I’m afraid that a comeback of the dead puck era and neutral zone traps will drive away casual fans and cusp fans who like wide open play with flow, speed and elite scorers allowed to be elite scorers.
I’m thinking you put me in net,but you put me on my side, and we’re good. If that doesn’t work Sumo wrestler.
Maybe I’ll be able to get down to Abbotsford and we can test my theory in a road hockey game. Good stuff THG. May all your hat-tricks be natural.
I personally really like where hockey is at right now. I think the pace, the offense, the defense, and the goal tending is balanced pretty well. The only thing I can think of to make the game more enjoyable is to figure something out with the OT and shootout situation.
I knew this was coming after kings nucks affair yesterday
It might have been the straw that broke the camels back, but this has been coming. Look how long he has been calling Boston games boring.
13:48 Matt Murray and Andrei Vaisilesky
Soccer- has teams that "park the bus" and try to avoid being scored on and make little attempt to score.
NFL- trying to make playing defense impossible
NBA- refuses to play defense entirely
I think the NHL should aim for a happy medium between the two extremes. No defense can be just as bad as too much defense from a viewing perspective.
Anything over 3 goals per game per team is fine with me. I hated the 2010s, Jamie Benn with an art ross was awful to watch with 87 points. I want more scoring but 3 goals is that average that everyone should be happy with.
Defence in hockey is not fun to watch. Never was and never will be
I have no issue with the neutral zone trap. It's on the coaches and players to figure out how to counter it. Move the puck would be my first suggestion. If you're going to hold the puck behind your own net and allow the other team to set up their trap, you're playing into their game. First guy off the bench on that line change goes to the opposing blue line and gets the pass instead of 3 players all circling back into your own zone like some practice breakout drill.
they did find the counter they couldnt beat it so they joined it.
I do not miss the Jacque Lemaire snooze fests. No thank you.
I really like these general topic videos. Keep up the good work.
BTW You need to do a meet up on the East Coast.
Did you ever review the Anaheim Minnesota 2003 series? The ultimate trapping-wasteland series.
There's definitely a fine line with the NHL trying to police styles that are "too defensive." Do they exist? Definitely, but the Sharks would have been abominable to watch even as a neutral, let alone a fan, this year if they weren't allowed to play a pretty defensive game. At a certain point, it actually isn't fun to see a team get slaughtered unless you REALLY hate them (and even then you feel a little dirty after too many times). There has to be an allowance for a team to try to limit chances, unfortunately the 1-3-1 is incredibly effective at that. I don't think we'll see the hellish defensive style of the 90s and early 2000s really come back to the degree we saw then, it's been beaten into submission pretty effectively by rule changes over the past two decades.
On the shootout thing, I'd personally advocate the league (if they don't just scrap the shootout entirely in favor of draws which is my vote) move to 3 points for a win in regulation/overtime, 2 for a win in the shootout, and 1 for getting to overtime and losing. Incentivizes pushing for the win while still in overtime, but still allows for the shootout to exist.
1-3-1 style defenses are so boring.
I still remember Don Cherry during a Coach's Corner in the 2003 playoffs commenting on Giguere's equipment: "HE LOOKS LIKE KING KONG!"
If the NHL ended the Dead Puck Era with rule changes, they should do the same thing to the Dead Cap Era we’re in right now.
I'd really like to see the review of being inches offsides meaning a goal gets called back. If the ref calls it at the time of the offsides, fine. But, I think it hurts the sport that play continues for maybe 30 seconds then a play of inches offsides that was not called erases a goal.
Exoansion has always lead to an increase in scoring. Im all for adding 2 teams every 10 years or so in order to keep the game watchable
The Devils’ perfection of the trap and the goalie’s equipment increasing to tent-sized proportions after 1993-94 brought offense to a halt league-wide until the Lost Season of 2004-05, save for certain individuals who’d score no matter what, but even their stats were reduced compared to previous form.
cracking down on interference, hooking and holding saved the game
I definitely think Embellishment doesn't get called correctly, at all. They only ever call it as offsetting penalties. It's never an embellishment penalty by itself. I've seen a play this season where a guy grabbed his opponents stick to lift it up and hit himself in the face with it. Initial call was high sticking, but upon review, they rescinded it. However, they didn't take that moment to issue an embellishment penalty. There are a lot of tongue in cheek cheapshot plays that don't get called. Maybe an initial call will be reversed because of it, but never do they get penalized for it. Whether it fabricates a penalty or otherwise results in a stoppage, they need to be penalized.
People forget about this but Most of the drafts in the 90’s were terrible
Great point.
SUNDIN TIES THE GAME !!!!! one of bob coles best calls
I wonder if that the high scores in recent games, six goals for example, was going to cause a change. The NHL implemented changes to open up more goals and if this is a blow back. I can agree with what you say. Thank you.
Interesting stuff. 🤔👍
There has been one team since the lockout that went with defense first and that was the 2011 Tampa Bay Lightning.
I totally understand your confusion about teams playing a certain way when they have talent to do something else. The best coaches in any sport are the one’s who develop their style, strategy, and game plan around the talent on their team and don’t make their players adapt to a style the coach prefers. A coach who is married to a particular style can win, but they win because they got lucky with the right players, not because they evaluate and develop players well. When a coach isn’t playing their best guy because the current game isn’t that style, the coach is done and it’s just a question of when. I’m one of the few who enjoys 3-2 hockey with great goaltending and defense. Regarding ot, I think a 10 min 4 on 4 would do it, 3 on 3 teams are just too hesitant to give up a break away and 4 on 4 I think would produce a similar number of shootouts to the current model.
I'd love to see what the talented guys could do in a no/minimal contact ruleset with no fighting.
I think more trapping will incentivize more speed and puck handling. More going right at defenders as you blow by them. Open spaces will be more vertical and reward tose who are aggressive, athletic, and smart woth the puck.
Don't know how many guys would excel at that style, but we would see more of the McDavid style of hockey I think.
Would appreciate a vid on the 2014/15 season/changes etc thanks
So many great players in that era, they could have had been such a golden era, but it is what it is, scoring after the lock out increased with less offensive talent than 97-06, would be interesting to have all star teams from each conference from both eras and compare
I like the neutral zone trap, but I like allowing the two line pass to try to bypass the neutral zone trap.
Let's have fun with this, no Offsides.
Cheers mate. Now that Spring is here is there any chance of you doing the occasional video outside? I don't know if you've ever done an outside 'show' but it is such a lovely environment up your way that it would just add to your otherwise excellent presentation. Cheers!
He’s done a few trade videos while outside due to breaking news. Haven’t seen that in a while.
Thank-you kindly mate. Cheers!@@brianhobaugh
Scoring is up 12.25% this year compared to '01 when Bure had 59 goals(3.12 vs 2.76). If you adjust his goals up 12.25% that'd put him at 66.
That over the glass would happen every time a team was pinned down in there ozone but some of the rules I grew up with I hated when the change happened . Paul Biz nasty was a known flopper and says on spitting chiclets and wears it with a badge of honor 😂
Bure no doubt would've been 70+ several times if he'd played in a different era. He's one of the most talented offensive players ever in my opinion.
n.j. devils were very successful with j. leamire's style of play in 90's .. clog up the middle for 60 minutes , score 2 or 3 goals , and rely on hof goaltending to win
In April of 94 Mario Lemieux threatened to quit, he was being constantly held, hooked, slashed whether he had the puck or not. Refs wouldn't even call blatant penalties
In the 70s as roster started becoming deeper( a lot of teams would not play their 4th line in the 3rd period , sometimes their 3rd line was reduces as well) buy it was still a slash league......watch the SC final between Phi and Mon , you could watch a player carry the puck into the zone, keeping the puck protected from his cover. But every opposing player ( covering their man) would reach out for a viscious slash one or two hander, on the puck carrier, while the man on him was constantly slashing him( both teams did it- maybe not quite equal close though)
There have always been this penalty not called through NHL history
Case in point the Detroit Red Wings in mid 2000s had the skill but also tenacity/smarts to avoid the hooks on puck carrier...they would hook the trailing , open winger( wasn't just Detriot- they were just so good at hiding it) so where you should have an odd man rush, you didn't
Same old call the penalties
Man has a step on you towards the goal , call the penalty shot
turn effective defense into sharp transition offense?
Bring back POWER FORWARDS!!!
Guys who can carry the puck through a defenseman, throw crushing hits on the forecheck, fight and intimidate the opposing team.
What is the lockout
Agree I embrace puck over the glass penalty
Even the best dmen,back in the day , I aim for top 2 feet below the edge of glass.....no way a player can block the puck , worst case it goes out of bounds, put fresh defensive players on the ice
It would have been pretty remarkable if both Mogilny and LaFontaine scored 76 goals since they mainly played together in the same line.
It was *akshually* Selänne who scored 76 goals that season.
To answer your question, I’ve only started actually following the NHL after the Covid lockdown, so I cannot comment on any earlier patterns of play
(Caps fan, so ‘98 kinda hurt & the NHL was harder to follow back then & the season is so long)
What I'd be curious about is if the top goalies of the time (Hasek, Brodeur, Roy) wouldve looked as good as they had if they hadnt had their peaks during the dead puck era.
Heavy hockey won 5 Stanley Cups between 2010 and 2015. Hard to argue with success.
I know this may not be a popular opinion, but I think "trap" hockey is actually very important to the sport itself. It's what allows teams with less talent to beat high end talented teams. It's part of what creates crazy upsets (Tampa vs Columbus for example) and gives the league a lot of parody. I think the issue arises when everyone starts playing that way, including the most talented teams in the league. But that can be said for any style of hockey. Having every team play the same style is just boring in general. But personally I do not think the pace of the game needs a shift for now.
Coaches want to win every game, not just the important ones. So they’ll employ whatever strategy is necessary to win. And very few teams can play a run and gun style effectively every game. Defense is more predictable and easier to play consistently.
I like the current rules but i dont mind watching a good defensive gritty grind it out game
I think goal scoring is in a good position right now. If you make it too easy, it dilutes how great the best players are, however you dont want goal scoring to drop tooo far for viewers. At the same time right with how many goals are scored the physicality of hockey makes it an exciting sport to watch even when the puck isnt in the net. Its the only sport I can watch that can keep my attention for a full 60. Obviously there are some boring games out there that wont but the score usually isnt the main thing that keeps my personal attention.
Hey Shannon, what are your thoughts on introducing a 1 minute penalty for things like puck over the glass? It seems weird that you get the same punishment for dangerous plays as you do for accidentally lifting the puck into the stands. Seems like it might also give officials a little more autonomy in making calls based on the gravity of the offence. "I don't really like giving that guy a 2 minute penalty for that, but he should get SOMETHING, so..."
why, 2 minutes for intentional is fine
I sorely miss the Dead Puck Era. Best players, best teams, larger than life personalities (and egos), enforcers, insane rivalries, it was an amazing time to be alive.
I always wish I was alive to see it. Well, I was alive for 3 years of it, but obviously didn’t watch hockey and wouldn’t have remembered.
@brianhobaugh in a way you're lucky. I love modern, post 2005 lockout hockey, but it'll never be as awesome as how it was before all the rule and league changes. It honestly makes me sad knowing the NHL will never be that amazing again.
@@brianhobaughno, no, you do not. I remember it, and it made me loathe hockey for a bit
Shootouts are better than ties
wonder if there are any teams that are particularly good against some of these teams that are famous for the modern trap like the trotz islanders
i'm pro neutral zone trap when necessary (and if you've got the physical guys to do it). I don't want to see it all the time. But i thought there was plenty of scoring in the late 90's. I like a good 2-1 game. Especially if it's a beautiful defensive game on both sides. But the game has always been about scoring. Without goals you get shootouts every night. I am kind of opposed to these giant goalies. i keep wondering when we're gonna get our first 6-8, 260 lb behemoth who just happens to be quicksilver in net. It's bound to happen.
Correction: Mogilny and Selanne had 76 goals, not LaFontaine
I remember when I think it was Andy Moog ? We used to talk about his huge glove...well it wasn't long after it became common place
Than they added the cheater pad between the thumb and wrist....than everybody eentvovernmboard to some degree( beyond the number of quality goalies across the league- which was real)
I noticed how forecheckers or puck carriers chipping in the puck , are now interfered getting to the puck( I get they don't call it to protect the dman from getting plastered against the boards...but it's getting ridicules with dmen taking 1- 2 steps to initiate contact on the forward
It’s very frustrating as a fan when a team just clogs up the middle of the ice. It becomes a very boring game when that happens.
Back when there were only three officials who didn't miss a thing.
it is sort of fun on occasion to ask ourselves how many would player X have scored in the highest scoring era
Oh man remember selannes rookie year and lindros got a whack of points too bure bure bure mogilny tho in what 91?
If they trap is played like the blues in 2019 im fine with it , but also bring back staple gunning people to the boards physical hockey is gone it’s a bump in play league
Dude goalies got better that is the main reason goal scoring went down the second thing I’d say was the lack of calls on the obvious penalties
Possibly an unpopular opinion, but goal scoring right now is roughly where it should be. Goals are exciting because they're difficult to get. There's 3ish per team per game now, if rises too much, goals will be less impressive.
I believe scoring average will only continue to climb for many years and I'll tell you why. I remember the 80s and 90s and it was primarily two scoring lines and 3rd and 4th lines were really for giving the other lines a rest and hitting and fighting, that's about it. However, today's teams have mostly 3 lines that can score and many teams even get scoring from all 4 lines such as Dallas, Tampa, Vancouver and several others, I also believe that this Era of players are the most fit and healthy out of any previous generations. Great video Shannon : )
1. I looked at the numbers. And it looks like talent dilution wasn't really a thing. Russian and Czech players compensated for that.
2. Was there a culture thing with Russians and Czechs coming as well? Soviet system was more about trenches, mines, and barbed wire rather than cavalry charge...
They added almost 200 players to the NHL in less than a decade. No, the European players coming in didn't offset that.
American players were by far the biggest group to grow with expansion. Canada might have the most of the best of the best. But as we go a tad lower in skill level. The sheer size of the United States. The U.S players start to outnumber others at some level. Or at least even out with Canada.
@@TheHockeyGuy
Pre-expansion: about 400 regular players with 40+ games, about 300 of them Canadians, about 60 Americans, about 20 Swedes, about 10 Finns, 5 Czechs, 5 others
Halfway through expansion (95-96): 500 players, 303 Canadians, 94 Americans, 22 Swedes, 9 Finns, 41 Russians, 21 Czechs, 10 others
After expansion (03-04): 585 players, 311 Canadians, 94 Americans, 35 Swedes, 21 Finns, 42 Russians, 45 Czechs, 37 others
One can look at different numbers, outcomes will be more or less the same: first half of the 90th expansion was covered by Russians, Czechs and growing the game in the USA, second half - by growth in Czechs, Swedes, Finns and unusual markets.
There's just way too much talent in the NHL right now to have another dead puck era. Not that there weren't talented players before, but with how much the talent pool has grown, even just from the early 2000's (just check how well different nationalities were represented, compared to today), it's incomparable. Plus the rule changes made in '05 definitely help. It can get more defensive, but it won't be anywhere near as bad as it has been during times of yonder.
I'm fairly certain it was Selanne, not LaFontaine, who scored 76 goals.
Let's go Devils
GKG
Personally I believe rebuilds increase scoring. Instead of low-talent teams playing defense, they can embrace the fast pace even if they lose in order to tank or let the young stars develop.
Face Touch 5 seconds in
I actually liked the dead puck era
eventually your discord will learn that the players i take are good .
i liked the dead puck era i liked the trap too.i like that type of play ,is that wrong ?
was the live puck in the 80s better hockey ?
it seems now is always better imo .
the 80s and 90s were so much simpler . soon they will count pitches like baseball , dont want that as a fan .
bordeleau and brazeau have b in their names had to take them both as a pair .
i have gudas and geekie because i put them as a pair and its gg when i win the week .
if you have two of something . if one is bad you have another .
now i have ZEGRAS! gudas goes on ir wowie wow wow , couldnt have asked for a better run .gohabsgo
i took zegras cuz u a fan o dem btw , gudas im a fan of . idc where he plays . hes awesome imo .
I understand that it's a business, but as someone who collects NHL cards as purely a hobby, I do not even know what to say about the prices NHL upper deck cards are going for today. Even if you look for older seasons, the price of cards has SKYROCKETED WAY past the actual value of the ink and paper most of the individual cards are worth...
How are hobbyists and children supposed to continue to enjoy this hobby when all these "get rich quick" collectors and online "tradesmen" force them out of the market?
I remember my father, a lifelong hockey fan, speaking the name Jacques Lemaire as if it was an obscenity.
Imo there is a lot not being called for diving and the other team is penalized instead. The other thing maybe start 2 fine referees 4 bad calls
Defense Wins Championships? If that was true, the 80's Oilers would have never won a game.
Without the trap, would Brodeur be the all-time leader in wins? Maybe.
If the goalie wanrs to be a skater then take the lumps! Apologies to Jacques Plante.
2 point for winning in OT 1 point for loss in OT, 1 point winning in shootout 0 point for loss in shootout! Change it now!
Ironic this video comes out a day after the LA snoozefest he watched 😂😂😂
Get rid of the trapezoid and instigator stuff. Let fighting be how it used to be, and let goalies get involved. Crack down on headhunting, seriously. And allow the game to be more physical like it used to be.
I really don't mind the trap whatsoever and don't find it boring. You can still have great offense to go along with it just look at LA right now. It's similar to soccer with more defensive orientated formations...
People like you are ruining the game
Selanne,not Lafontaine !