The NBA Saboteur Hall of Fame With Ryen Russillo | The Bill Simmons Podcast
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- The Ringer’s Bill Simmons brings on Ryen Russillo to induct players into the first ever NBA Saboteur Hall of Fame. They trace the origins of NBA sabotage back to Wilt Chamberlain before discussing various examples such as Vince Carter, Baron Davis, Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, James Harden, and more!
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Ben Simmons gotta be on this list.
The North remembers...
@@Jennifer_Elliott LMFAO
Not if Philly wins a title, then it worked out fine.
He tried to sabotage but Joel too good
I think they were dancing around that due to the ‘supposed’ mental health thing. Yea I know he faked it, but whatever.
The Sunday pods are back and now so is my reason to live
Its tuesday
@@keeganabney9175 this clip is from the Sunday podcast
@@movieanatomy4341 ohhh ok my bad
Lol
Imagine thinking that, 'I'd rather take $120M and be in LA rather $240M and be in New Orleans.' I've never been to either but I'll make $240M work in N.O.
Right, cuz who can live off a measly 120M
@@chm2 120 mil in California is gonna get hella taxes. The 240 mil in NOLA is a whole lot of gumbo and jambalaya
You’re missing the point, Edmund.
Vince Carter --- ALL TIME NUMBER ONE!!! Not just because he stopped playing, quit on our Raptors and demanded a trade, but because he really didn't do anything to make himself a better player throughout his career. I keep thinking about the levels he could have achieved on top of his God given gifts. Being an all time day one Raptors die-hard fan who has seen and studied it all, Vince for all his accolades could have been MJ level great (and I'm not saying that). Vince admittedly did nothing during his off-season and just vacationed during that time, unlike true Super-starts who work on their game. This is not bitterness, these are facts.
How is Ben Simmons not on the list? If you can make a case for Zion who's played just 85 games in his career, you can definitely make a case for Simmons who literally quit on his team after people fairly criticized him.
they tried to trade him at the deadline last year and failed then they tried to blame their playoff loss on him, why should he want to play for them again?
Not to mention they would’ve traded him for harden this year even if he came back and played every game. Morey is snake
@@Rileylmao_ any team would trade there 2nd best player for james harden.
Which leaves us back to the point of him getting all bemt out of shape cause people called out his lack luster play
@@56mdk so you try to trade a guy then when you fail you say you can’t win with him, then expect him to come back to your team and play like nothing happened? that one of the dumbest things Ive ever heard.
@@Rileylmao_ YES, how many players went on to have great careers after A trade did not go thru.
Remember Klay Thompson and Kevin love. 90% of players have been in trade talks. Robert Horry was famously traded in the 95 season but some1 failed physical. He became big shot bob after that.
Stop being a Ben apologizist as a former one. He ain’t worth it.
Can't believe Deron Williams wasn't mentioned. Forced an all-time great coach in Jerry Sloan into retirement by calling his own plays and throwing fits to get his way, blowing up on a young Gordon Hayward and Sloan to the point Al Jefferson had to step in to calm everyone down, and overall giving a clear lack of effort in Sloan's final days. Even the assistant coach retired with Sloan out of loyalty as a result of Williams' bullshit. Deron traded that same season to New Jersey.
I think they were considering HOFers only. Deron and Ben Simmons will probably be second ballot SHOFers lol
And I always find it funny how 2 yrs later DWills production dwelled dramatically and he was never the same
Its crazy that he was one of the best guards in the league at one point
Who’s Deron Williams?
No one cares about the Utah Jazz lol
We need a podcast on saboteur teams and it can just be about what the Wizards have done to other teams. They started the hack a Ben in the series before his meltdown and that led to him sitting out. They traded Wall to Houston and he is sitting out the year. They traded Westbrook to the Lakers and ruined that team. If I were the Mavs, I would be pretty worried about the future
The Wizards are basically pure chaos to other teams
dinwiddie just helped the mavs beat the warriors...while kp has yet to play...
Damn I haven't thought about it all together 🤣
I love this!
The Wizards also facilitated the Anthony Davis trade. Isaac Bonga, Jemerrio Jones, and Moe Wagner were sent to the Wizards in order to make the deal work.
Charles Barkley getting fat before the draft surely puts him in the HOF
Bill Simmons talking basketball is just a good time.
Young Raptors fans need to hear this!!! No way we should retire Vince’s jersey after the way he left
Preach
He put the raptors on the map I was pissed also but the ownership at the time was the teacher union which didn't put money into building a franchise lousy gms one all right coach in Mitchell it was run to make dividend checks not to win championship
@@johnbeardshall2898 He picked us up from the bottom, true. But that’s exactly where he would have left us if not for Bosh. He pretended to be hurt and played bad on purpose. He tanked his trade value, so we got nothing for him. He left us for dead bro
Oh my God! Bynum is only 34?!??....Had to google that to double check... what a shame
Did you guys know Bill Simmons had season tickets for Clippers?
Oh wow, I've never heard him say that
Whoa? That's crazy. Did he write about it? When did he get NBA league pass?
A lot of people made that move to get tickets a long time ago, which was smart.
1) for all those years prior to the Blake-CP3-Dj team, clippers tickets were dirt cheap, as was being a season ticket holder. The clippers SUCKED.
2) buying a dirt cheap season ticket package let’s you see all the other talented players on opposing teams play, for dirt cheap. If you want to see MJ live, it’s financially better to see him against a shitty team - even if it’s not really competitive.
3) buying a ticket package gives you “birds rights” aka first dibs on season tickets the following season, at a discounted price. This is how and why some people who have season tickets keep getting it every year. So if someone who has never had tickets now wants them in the same section where BS sits, they will pay much more for them compared to what BS would pay.
4) You would be surprised how many people with money have season tickets for shitty teams (or bought them when the team was shit). You’re basically paying to watch the other teams and other stars, yet at a discounted rate. I know a handful of folks who got clippers ticket packages in the 80s-90s, despite hating the clippers.
5) I know some people who have season tickets and sell the tickets to big games or Christmas games, which could end up reimbursing them for the ENTIRE season ticket package. Essentially, they get to go to games for free at the end of it all.
He’s only said it hundreds of times...... about the only thing he mentions more than he has Clippers season tickets is the Celtics
@@UtotheJ three things bill is good for
1) mentioning the Celtics in absolutely every podcast no matter the topic
2) saying “and I was at that game!” In every podcast
3) mentioning his clippers tickets when talking about other teams the clippers played about once a month for the last decade.
Older Raptors fans agree with you big time on Vince. I can't watch when ESPN treats him like an all-time great.
And he left y’all and still never accomplished anything. He got what he deserved.
@@dp2120 Those guys never win if the are your key contributors.
The fact some "fans" want his number retired at all let alone before Kyle is infuriating. Clearly they didn't live through that embarrassment
@@brentguest3179 exactly it’s absolutely pathetic how people forget what Vince did.
He is an all time great. Just cause you're bitter how he played for your team doesn't take away from his career
Ben Simmons should be on This list even more now than then
I'd like to nominate D'Angelo Russell and Gilbert Arenas to the unintentional saboteurs wing of this HoF.
I remember those VC years pretty well. It was quite the spectacle, watching his play "deteriorate" that season due to "injuries", only to see him immediately DOUBLE his production in New Jersey after being traded. I get that Raptors management was pretty shitty then, as were some of the HCs they hired, but still, he definitely sabo'd his way out in a crappy manner. That said, I was cool with cheering for him as his career was winding down and giving him his credit for the way he played in Toronto previous to the one where he gave up. No question his number shouldn't be retired though.
exact same sentiments shared... painful years after that philly series, watching vince settle for 20 footers and going for 5/17 and refusing to dunk...
some perspective, he was just a dunker and volume shooter... 47 win season all they can muster...
we had several runs of 50+ and a championship since he left
Masai is the real superstar... and Lowry...
@@linodinardo4798Sounds like Carter was a good player who wasn’t someone you could’ve built a championship team around.
Kareem is pretty damn good at roasting people in writing lol dude might be one of the few legit intellectuals from the NBA (at least who were noteworthy NBA players too).
1:49 "Imagine if this stuff was happening now" basically Ayton getting benched in game 7 against the Suns.
An entire wing of this HOF should be dedicated to those who abandoned New Orleans
On Shawn Kemp: don't forget being spotted in a Seattle bar the night before a playoff game pounding shots.
Bill, sincerely afraid & Russillo providing sound guidance, astutely ascertained that discussing Lamar Odom and the issues he entails is a losing proposition. Smart man.
Do you actually talk like that?
Props to russillo for doing that swiftly AND discreetly. It would have been a lose-lose situation to even discuss it.
Can someone explain this to me
@@Biporian it’s self explanatory lol
Would not have been terrible, Lamar *chose* to be part of the situations that lead to those situations.
THank you Simmons for calling out how terrible the Vince Carter trade was for the Raptors. That trade literally set they team back 5 years.
Fck Alonzo mourning till the end of time
Even the trade is an example of how mediocre the Raptors front office was. While there is no excuse for quitting, the media and Old School Raptors fans treat Vince way worse than how Houston treats James Harden, when what James has done runs circles around what VC did back in the day. Makes absolutely no sense.
AD and Ben Simmons have to make it.
Scottie is one of the all-time saboteurs. Got the surgery on the teams time, refused to go in when Kukoc got the final shot, spent a full season fighting with GM over contract, couldn't make it work with the Rockets, and held out for a trade in Chicago which contributed to the overall frustration in 98 that led to Michael retiring.
These guys are fun. To be fair, Pods were made for Bill.
"Bynum wasn't real locked in towards the end" i cracked up
This is why VINCE should never be welcomed back by the raptors and NEVER have his jersey retired.
Wilt left Kansas for the Globetrotters because he couldn't go to the NBA yet. If you say he "quit" on Kansas, you have to say every "one and one" quit on their college too.
I would also point out that free agency didn't start in the NBA until 1988. Before then, an unhappy player had to force or beg for a trade to get out of an bad situation. One of the many things Wilt was famous for was not putting up with being unhappy. In a league with free agency, he would have been the first to sign 1 or 2 year deals to always keep his options open.
The hate against Wilt is unreal, it is like people can't separate the person from the professional.
@@HKashaf Wilt was just a big mouth and i think that's why he has a lot of hate. Less hate than Lebron though. People don't like big mouths. Also the fact he could not win in big moments when it mattered, adds to why he is disliked except for a minority of fans that take his word as truth.
@@HKashaf Wilt was an unspoken black man who didn't just lie down for massah and slept with a lot of white women. The historical hate against him isn't that surprising.
A wonderful Bill Simmonsesque episode. Always great with these two especially when only these two.
DeAndre Jordan to the Mavs has to be on this list. Cuban and his staff were sitting outside of his house, with Blake Griffin and them inside making sure he wouldn't answer the Mavs calls. WTF???
That was a couple years before he actually ended up on the team
As a 1st gen raptors fan the corporate memory hole that they tried to put vince's conduct these last few years was offensive. I think we can be pleased that at least his sabotage derailed his superstardom as well. There were a hell of a lot of Carter jerseys out there beyond T.O. while his run was on.
agreed... nothing to show after that 47 win season and loss to philly.. nothing but bricks and refusing to dunk... painful time..
Giving your team a heads up that you're leaving via free agency at the end of the year so they should trade him for value is actually doing your team a solid.
why help out a team youre leaving? its business and competition not some peewee league with orange slices and juice boxes after the game
@@dkmrap1 bc ya develop relationships w/ ppl and fans. Ya may want to move on in your career, but that doesn’t mean sabotaging your current situation to do so. Also some guys want to be moved sooner and not wait for seasons end. There’s endless reasons as to why players would give a team notice
@@tjanderson5892 it's business. It's not about you. These are grown men doing what's best for them and their families. which any adult should do.
@@dkmrap1 lol never said it’s about me. GMs, coaches, and players all move around the league. Mistreating someone today could impact opportunities tomorrow. It’s good business to let organizations know if you look at it long term. As a player realistically you aren’t winning a championship and the supposed edge you claim to get by leaving teams dry and not communicating w/ em isn’t anywhere near the benefit you’ll get by being viewed as a stand up player throughout the league. Having a bad reputation won’t affect players like Kyrie right now. He’s gonna get the bag regardless what happens. But when his career is winding down and he’s lookin for deals from teams, having a bad rep throughout the league will end up hurting him. You miss the bigger picture
@@tjanderson5892 you don't realize these gms and owners promise deals to players and pull out in the final hour ALL the time but you don't hear about it so you don't place any blame on them. Don't let media narratives fool you
That Andrew Bynum gym story line…classic Rusillo
A 2 second story 'everyone says he's nice' lmaooo
Great episode. It had me laughing along with the two of them.
I think you guys are forgetting when Kyrie threatened to have surgery on his knee if the Cavs didn't trade him. So two time saboteur? Haha
@BlackBeard Kawhi and Love helped their team win a chip
Eh, Kyrie actually needed that surgery and put it off for 2 years because his teams were contending. It ultimately cost him the 2018 season. If he had truly just put himself first, he would have gotten the screws removed in 2016 and the Cavs never win a title. He sacrificed before the sabotage, so it balances out.
@@CBarber22 Forget all the 🧢. simple question do you think Kyrie has sabotaged situations?
@@gobot581 yes he has sabotaged a situation, when his 2nd Celtics season wasn't going well he decided he was done being the vocal leader when guys like Rozier and JBrown needed him most. And then he started recruiting guys to join him in Brooklyn by midseason. I am not biased.
@@CBarber22 update on this situation since kyrie has talked about it on a stream a week or so ago he had been putting off surgery and had to get it in 2018 because he was getting a serious infection in his knee that if spread could infect his heart and he'd die cus of this he was basically bed ridden for months until training camp and had to have a tube running from his arm directly to his heart he said his leg by then was like a chicken wing since he couldn't do anything traning camp comes around he says if yall will take me im coming back then boom his grandfather dies and idk about you but having been in a similar situation that shit breaks you so i dont blame him for being less vocal with his teammates especially when they were having the same problems even after kyrie left
edit: watched the video and its ridiculous how when they bring kyrie up they said they knew more about the situation but ive never seen the media report about his knee infection which i can only imagine how much wouldve changed had that story came out
Two you forgot. Paul George with the Pacers in 2016 and Ron Artest with the Pacers in 2006.
I don’t understand either of these. 2016 Paul George had a career year and was incredible in the playoffs. 2006 Artest demanded a trade but his on court performance was still on par with what it’d been before.
What makes either of these sabotage?
This is a lot funnier video than I thought it would be.
This was so informative. Thanks bill and ryen
Steve Franchise should be on this list.
I love this channel this whole segment is Hilarious
Love the show guys!!! You should do an episode on top producers who’s career got ruined because of their team.
I think you are really unfair considering Dwight's final Magic season. Despite all the chaos and noise, they were putting together a good playoff push and Dwight wanted to see it through. The Magic said they wouldn't let him play out the year unless he picked up his option. (and would probably send him somewhere he didn't want to go.) So he picked up the option, because he wanted to finish what the team started that season. That is the opposite of sabotaging or quitting on your team. Then he immediately got hurt and the team fell apart and he was unhappy and regretful and the whole dynamic was awful. Yes it was weird, and part of it had to do with Howard not wanting the criticism and dislike. He also didn't want to be compared to Shaq leaving Orlando for the Lakers. (which was completely different: Shaq left the 2nd best team in the NBA after only being there 4 seasons, because he didn't want to face Jordan every year and would rather play at Movies and Rap music while he waited for Jordan to retire.) It was not sabotage or quitting.
Nobody likes a class clown in the professional world, and that is what dwight was his entire career with the magic. His biggest accomplishments there still left the impression he was a smiling goofy class clown.
You need an update. 2022 Kyrie and the Nets, most epic of all time.
As a Raps fan I will NEVER forgive Vince for the way he left Toronto. It makes me angry that so many young kids have no idea how much he set the franchise back. His jersey should NEVER be retired here.
It’s sad that as time goes on people forget all the BS he pulled. He was letting other teams know what plays the raps were going to run. Vince Carter is a bum who never won anything and his best highlight as a raptor was winning a dunk off and missing a game 7 buzzer beater in the playoffs.
This is like a humble brag of all the games Bill has been to.
First comment in video maybe 300 of both you guys in it over the years. My 2cents worth, The basketball info., insight, opinions have always been there. But it flows across and entertains x10 when you hear and feel your friendship as strengthened.
You guys just glossed over AD. AD's was so big it started up prop bets about the Pelicans moving to Seattle. Pelicans also didn't tank. They kept trying to win games.
im a big Vince fan but that toronto stuff is forever a mark on his career
I can't wait for the part on Vince Carter. Those finals Raptors months were a sight to behold
He had chris bosh mo pete jalen rose donyell marshall charlie v. and mike james on his team and bailed like a coward...that team was stacked if they had vc in 2004-2005 they probably make round 2
Nuggets were my life at the time Melo demanded a trade. He did not quit, and i know he did it for selfish reasons, but the Nuggets ended up getting a good deal for him. That trade actually helped the Nuggets move on from a situation in which we were not going to get better.
That traded killed the Knicks.
Melo fat ass did nothing but make money in NY
Kahwi is in a league all by himself.
He barely plays on the Clippers now 😂😂😂
Unorthodox nominee! Harold Katz, owner of the Sixers. Traded Moses Malone, who was the essential guy on their 1983 title team, for the utterly broken Jeff Ruland, who played probably fewer than 12 games for the Sixers before injuries ended him. He also traded the #1 pick that became Brad Daugherty for Roy Hinson, who played two undistinguished seasons for the Sixers before he went to the Nets. These moves undoubtedly contributed to the disaster that resulted in Barkley getting the hell out of there in 1992. Finally sold the team shortly after AI had been drafted.
If you guys aren't willing to include GMs and owners, there should be a different HoF for them then.
you guys are amazing
too bad rusiilo sucks
Rusillo's apartment with a great view of the swamp from neverending story
Banger
It's a bit early to say this but I think Ben Simmons and his supposed "mental breakdown" with the 76ers could be a candidate for the Saboteur HoF. I think revisiting this in like 5 or 10 years is warranted but given what we know and what was "leaked" to the media from both his camp and the 76ers side of things, Ben Simmons basically booted the season just because his feelings were hurt.
could be? Its literally the best example. Simmons LITERALLY quit and never showed up again.
@@Howdidhenotseeme the 76ers fucked that up
They made him not wanna be there anymore
You don’t bash one of your superstars immediately after a critical playoff game you always support and they didn’t do that so if I was Ben I wouldn’t wanna be there either fuck them
He didn't wanna be there anymore, why should he play if he doesn't want to be there?
Basketball's wild man
Blake griffing not dunking for over a year on the pistons then dunking in his first nets game
Y’all missed Steve Francis out of the Vancouver Grizzlies
When you draft Rafael Araujo at 8 before iggy, when you take Rafer Alston ahead of Steve Nash in free agency, and when your coach gives you 15 shot a game you may have a point.
Before talking shit, he might listen what Jalen Rose had to say about that situation,
Bill being a Carter hater forever.
A lot of these guys had a "point" or at least a reason for their shit. It still doesn't make it okay to simply quit to the point Vince did. In fact I think it's the most outrageous one of all of these.
People also forget how horrid mgmt was those days. The broken promises made by Babcock at the time, he deserved more from them. And just like any “job” when you’re upset and unappreciated like he was, you react, it’s being human. Didn’t he also have a buzzer winner for us during this period ? Lol. The man did so much for basketball in Canada so I’ll always appreciate V.C. Anyways I’m with you lol.
And by the way, just checked, Vince had 21 points in just 25 minutes that Clipper game, with 5 rebounds,
Bill talking the truth forever.
Preach. One of the few comments where someone actually took the time to know how bad the situation in Toronto was. GLeague teams were better run than the Raptors during that era. Like i said in a previous comment; while what Vince did was inexcusable; The media and Old School Raptors fans are giving VC the Death Penalty for quitting on of the 3 worst situations in modern NBA, while to put things into perspective, James Harden while being on a great situation, did several things in a much much messed up manner, and that's barely mentioned or barely criticized for it. It makes no sense...
I mean, there’s a difference between wanting out and asking for a trade, and absolutely giving up on your team and intentionally not playing your best.
I completely forgot Rondo went and sat in the stands in LA 😂
Can we get a 2024 update? Is there a lifetime achievement award we can give to Ben?
Is there video of Harden's pass to Wall and Wall's reaction? I cannot find it.
Very enjoyable listen! Does this season Randle make the list? I am torn, his behavior was awful but he looked like he tried.
You guys should do a most charismatic draft
Vince Carter: 22 seasons, 11 playoff appearances, 8 losses in 1st round. But sure great dunker.
In how many out of those 22 seasons was he in one of the top 10 championship contenders? 🤔. Like i always say, put Tmac, Carmelo, Vince and AI in a very good or all time great situation like Kobe, Wade or Curry, and their careers would be way different. Its easy to manipulate numbers to support one's cause 🤔
Baron Davis is my favorite player that’s not an all-time great
Harden is soon a three time saboteur - what an acomplishment
Haven't watched yet, but as a mavs fan, if rondo doesn't make that list, I'll be appalled edit: I was very quickly, not appalled.
As a life long Raptors fan, I dont blame Vince. The front office sabotaged him, not the other way round.
And Kawhi?? His doctors didnt clear him. You guys are insane.
"Bynum wasn't real-locked towards the end." Hahahahahahahahaha.
Guys...Bynum's two years younger than Al Horford.
The best explanation for Kawhi quitting on the Spurs is that his infamous "uncle" (who tried to extort the Lakers in a later contract negotiation) crossed Coach Pop, and Pop told him to f* off.
You’re wrong. Popovich took Aldridge’s side when LA started crying about being the center of the offense. Pop sycophants are just socialists who don’t know anything about basketball.
@@spicerc1244 ???
@@Biporian it’s true. Aldridge threw an unprecedented fit and Pop caved. When Kawhi asked for a second opinion he was shunned.
Oh my god I remember that
Ryan looks so shocked the entire video 😭
Ryan, what the actually holy heck was that monster can of stuff were you drinking? 🤣😂🤣
Bill has a spotty memory
How about Steve Francis quitting on the Grizzlies before ever playing a game in the NBA?
Ben Simmons is the GOAT
Al Horford in Philly is something
Harden is about to be a three-time saboteur MVP.
Eric Bledsoe is the sorriest one of them all.
1. Kyrie, Cavaliers, Celtics, Nets
2. James Harden
3. Vince Carter
4. everyone else
Spurs are still getting paid. The got Keldon Johnson with the pick sent, and they ultimately needed up cashing TWO FRPs for DeRozan, a pick, and Thad Young, who was flipped for another FRP. They also got a 1-6 protected pick for Poeltl. Final tally is four FRPs, with two still outstanding, the Chicago 1-10,1-8,1-8 starting in 2025, and the Poeltl pick.
It's weird how the media always expects for these players to just stay in a bad situation for their entire career & just be unhappy accepting mediocrity.
Kyrie Irving deserves special status for playing only when he wants to play (103 games over the past 3 seasons) and for being a cancer that causes his teams to explode.
Ben Simmons with 76ers Jimmy Butler with Minnesota and 76ers Kyrie with the Cavs Kawhi With San Antonio and the Raptors
Jimmy wanted to stay in Minny they just didn't want to pay him. He was screaming you need me! And he was right btw
I dont think he wanted to play with KAT or wigs
@@noahm7977 he was mad that KAT and Wiggins had tons of untapped potential and ability, but neither seemed to want to show that 100% effort. He said they're both more naturally gifted than him, but he always puts it all out there on the court
I want Bill to do a bad management bad owners list NBA
carter also stopped dunking... which is kind of what he was known for
Does anyone know if bill had clippers season tickets or not?
This is why Vince can't be fully vindicated. Never forget haha
I think Zion Williamson is going to use the fact New Orleans won't give him a rookie max as leverage for a trade demand. "where is my rookie max extension? Oh I'm not getting that? Send me to New York then"
Jimmy Butler first ballot HOF for Saboteur. We're glad he left Minnesota though, able to suck it up and draft ANTMAN.
I can't even say his name. Real Toronto fans do not forget. Managements inability to get anything in return just made it that much worse.
No real shock that the majority of these names are from this current empowerment movement.
Odom didn't sabotage his team he sabotaged his life. Dude damn near died from cardiac arrest on the floor of a brothel.
The Carter and Raptors might be #1. It was such an ugly divorce. Was Tmac already on the team or was going to be drafted by them.
The Kawhi might have been different if it were not for the injury cause by Zaza in WCF.
He was gone already
He was in Orlando
Tmac was drafted by the Raptors BEFORE Carter was.
Wrong. McGrady was drafted before VC, and left as part of the multiple mismanagement episodes of the raptors front office.
TMac has already left and signed with the Magic.
Scottie pippin in Houston needs to be in there
if there was a bootlicker hall of fame i think bill simmons and ryen rusillo would both be first ballot
Fun fact, Bill saw Vince Carter. At. A Clippers game. ....because he had season tickets.
Anyone else catch the Brandon hunter line by Russillo lol