The Problem With Men And Masculinity In The Church - feat. Kurt Francom
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- čas přidán 3. 07. 2024
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Over the last year, we have done a few episodes on men and masculinity in the church. They have always generated a lot of discussions online and in the comment section. And not just from men. Women have a lot to say on the subject as well.
In the west, men are trying to find their way in an ever-increasingly feminine world. Even within the church, things have changed significantly over the years and in our wards, we are now often given a "Mister Rogers" figure as an example. Was Jesus like that? Kurt Francom from Leading Saints Podcast joins us to discuss, "Where are all the men in the Church?" What is "Nice Guy Syndrome?" What does every man need even at church and Elders Quorum? Do we address the question that every man asks himself, "Do I have what it takes?" Do we address the needs of every man's heart in "A Battle To Fight, An Adventure To Live, and A Beauty To Love?"
Part 2 - • The Problem With Men A...
Find out more about Kurt's Men's Retreats here - awarriorheart.com/
Leading Saints Podcast - leadingsaints.org
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It's always interesting to read the comments and I appreciate the feedback and different perspectives. There is a theme I see coming up a lot that will help me better articulate this concept in the future. Many are defaulting to the "men need to buck up" mentality. This is true, but this message is also part of the problem. It's a "just do more" or "try harder" message filled with shame and doesn't inspire the hearts and minds of men. It's like telling someone struggling with porn to "just stop looking at it" as if they haven't already tried that. Men have tried to "buck up" but have found little strength and support to do so. Men aren't lazy, they are mainly just misunderstood. They need real connection to other men (brotherhood) and mentorship from other masculine men who have experienced more of life. Masculinity bestows masculinity! Messages of "be stronger" by "doing more" don't offer anything to men. It's not a motivational problem, it's a connection problem. Men don't know how to connect with other men and therefore struggle to connect with God. As a church community, we can offer men real connection, brotherhood, purpose, authenticity, and adventure (like we do with youth), and address their core desires rather than their less-than-perfect behavior.
Kurt I agree with you completely on this. Men definitely need to be around other men and support each other in our struggles of life. I am a convert and was baptized at 16. I had an older father who was not involved much with my life because of bad health issues. After joining the church I learned a great deal about masculinity by being around strong men in the church and also by serving a mission. This influence changed my life and gave me a foundation. As an older middle age guy I see the importance of now passing this on the next generation of younger men.
Amen brother. Good to hear more out there who are working from this angle. And thanks Greg for pinning this.
@@anthonyrippa686 It wasn't about telling members to interact with each other less.
@@anthonyrippa686 Please read through Elder Cook's October 2018 general conference talk on this again. Seeing the move as nothing more than "less Church" is a misunderstanding. Also Elder Bednar's talk in April 2019.
My father, USMC Gysgt (Ret.), Vietnam vet, etc., taught me what it means to be a man:
1) Be gentle, be kind, be humble, be meek, towards others, even if, at times, that means taking pain.
2) How to fight. To have the confidence that you can take care of business, if you must. This confidence leads to an abhorrence for war and conflict (because you personally know the consequences), something desperately needed in our warmongering world.
3) When you must fight, when there's no way out, fight, FIGHT. Prevail. Engage the enemy with such ferocity, that they have no choice but to surrender. And, it is honorable to do so.
Our branch YM recently planned a winter camp out but it got canceled because the MOMS said it was too cold! WOMEN NEED TO ENCOURAGE MASCULINITY!!
Agree 100%.
The Boy Scouts of America used to have a "Year Round Camping Award" for troops that went outdoor camping every month of the year. We loved the challenge and learned the most from winter camping.
100% agree!
@@silbannacusofoxyrhynchus6096 wow I remember so much from our snow camping trips in my ward Scout troop in Nor Cal. While I can't say that at the time I really ENJOYED freezing at night, it certainly was memorable lol!
Safety first IMO when it comes to anything, but yes by all means adventure and experience great things, even transforming things, together as quorums and groups, brothers and sisters (and families). 👍
Crap
I wish this subject received more attention from our church leaders. Between our society, our church, and what’s going on politically, our men seem half-dead, fearful, unsure, and unhappy!
They don't want to get political, or offend the women [who are mostly democrat] in any way, so they won't talk about it. They don't want to offend half the church membership, so their basically gagged.
Yes! I’ve been struggling with my feelings of returning to church after years of inactivity. This was one of the main barriers Ive had. I felt like it didn’t offer me much as a man other than hand me an assignment and preach to me about how I need to be kind, gentle, meek, obedient, etc. As a man that makes me feel like I’m resigning myself to a life of feeling “dead inside”.
Thank you so much. This makes me want to come back to church and help rekindle an atmosphere where men get the attention and encouragement necessary to become actual red-blooded, excited about life, MEN
Love hearing this.
This is one of the main reasons I left the church
Come back and be a big part of the change. We need MEN back.
This talk is just more of the same: "we need to do better". But you start with : "we need to BE...." this or that, and of course always come straight back to "well so how do we DO that", then out comes another list of stuff you have to "DO". Of course IN ADDITION to the load you're already carrying and can't just stop carrying. It assumes you already bring home a nice paycheck that keeps the family and wife minimally satisfied, and you'll keep going to all your meetings and service projects, but now take on another load of tasks designed to bring out your "masculinity". All while a whole generation is struggling just to find that nice paycheck that secures homeownership and the somewhat satisfied wife who can't find any "real men" and all without tearing down any of the stereotypes of what "men" SHOULD be, but just ADDING to them. This talk, in the end, does nothing but INCREASE the burden on men.
It reminds me so much of taxes. They NEVER go down, but they always have yet another excuse to raise them, supposedly in order to save the minimal services we have, while you actually get less services and more excuses from the government. This is the same: It's a way of saying "men just aren't enough anymore, because you know, the poor women are complaining that there are no good men around." Oh really? Are there any "good women", or have they all become only fans spoiled rotten whiners by social media, insisting they somehow "deserve" the top 0.001% of men, and shouldn't have to "settle" for anything but the best of the best, without bringing anything to the table themselves.
What's really driving this??
This has been a great discussion. I was recently released as an EQP and I spent my time trying to accomplish what has been discussed. We had activities, barbecues, real service projects, and created a lot of unity and brotherhood. Working to overcome the entrenched mentality about LDS men are supposed to be is challenging. Your discussion about church athletics triggered a not so pleasant memory. My church athletics experience wasn't like yours. I am one of those that is not the least bit athletic, more the artistic musician type. I began playing the piano for priesthood meeting my first Sunday after turning 12 and have been playing piano and organ ever since. My parents wanted me to participate in the athletics so they made sure I got there. I remember one practice where the coach, a big brawny prison guard, took my left handed ball glove from me and gave it to someone else saying, "He will actually use this." Later this coach hit a line drive right to me and I caught it bare handed. There was no way I was going to give him the satisfaction he wanted by dropping the ball no matter how bad it hurt. The coach then said, "I don't mind being put out but I hate being put out by someone like him." I quit going. I found my adventure climbing mountains and have hiked all over the west, seen the top of many western states, have been over 14,000' 5 times and am now working on the Appalachian high points. The sites are always amazing.
Something special happens on a long trail. Hike the PCT in 2017 and half the AT in 2019. It is an adventure.
It's admirable how you took action in your ward and in your personal life instead of sitting around complaining about the situation, wishing someone would come along to fix it. Thanks for your example!
I also feel like there’s just this idea like I can’t do anything that I want to do because there’s so many weekly church responsibilities, and we never get to explore masculinity except on scout camp outs, hikes an scout camp, but once those things are passed, then it’s like we all just drown in church responsibilities for the rest of our lives. Idk, maybe this is just my problem.
I see value in the individual pieces of what was discussed, but the overall message felt a lot like needing to get back to the good old days of men being men. Notably lacking from this conversation was acknowledgement of or reconcilement with the emerging societal value of inclusivity, or recognition of any of the ways in which yesteryear’s masculinity did include harmful elements, such as what happened in your story.
I mean, are we really throwing Fred Rodgers under the bus??
Coach sounded like the prison culture wore off on him.
This resonates with me so much. I love the church and even while I do not connect to the Mr Rogers types in the EQ, I value them and what they bring to the quorum. But we have to leave room for other types. There is room in the priesthood of God for aggressive, masculine men who have that part of themselves under control but are capable of exacting harsh correction and even violence when needed.
The women in the Church are looking for these types of men, as well. There’s not enough. We’ve edged them out and made them feel unwelcome or tried conversion therapy (little tongue in cheek there).
I’m a war vet who hunts, rides dirt bikes and prefers my solitude and privacy. I also love to serve my community. But there’s little question that modern Church culture has tried to squash those traits out of me. I’ve been told my whole life to essentially be like Mr Rogers.
We need some Rogers but we need some John Wayne, too. 😁
tempered, like captain moroni, the prophet joseph.
Oh man, glad I am not the only one whose noticed this Mr. Roger's. I made my comment before I heard the guest say it.
Most of the prophets are manly men--as was Jesus.
In my opinion there is also isolation among women. There are clicks and competition rather than encouragement and true understanding.
Says "Mark 1 Mod 0"... XD Just pointing out that your perspective may not be typical.
“Wing Night” started as a group of EQ friends from our ward would meet up at the local wing diner every few weeks. It was usually an impromptu set up when wings were half price:) It became so popular that friends who were not members of the church got wind of it and loved showing up to chat and just unwind with their male friends. Men need each other! It got so popular that at times there was no room to sit. This was a wonderful missionary opportunity and to this day non member friends and neighbours still text my husband to meet up for “Wing Night”. Ladies, encourage your husbands to get out and be with their buddies! They desperately need it.
Yes I enjoyed going to those on occasion. Our old ward’s EQ is now doing them too.
We started breakfast burritos for men first thing on Saturday mornings for guys to sneak out while the kids are still lounging around and hang out. Every second Saturday of the month at my house. Casual and has had great turnout so far. Will definitely give the wing idea a spin when guys want to switch it up for a weeknight. Thanks for sharing this.
Many would say that it takes them away from focusing on their family. That having a 'guys night out' is counter productive to being a good father. I don't agree but could easily find many that would espouse this idea.
This is a super important topic. I’m tired of feeling dead inside and shrinking from taking initiative because I’m concerned about criticism. (All easier said than done. Five decades of “niceness” reeducation both in the Church and in society will do that to a man.)
Thank you for speaking up! I see so much of this and I feel like it is the reason so many good men are leaving the church...because they are exhausted of feeling dead inside. I am raising 3 boys and I want to teach them to be MEN that ACT in truth and Righteousness and are bold and agents for themselves, not ones that wait to be told what they "should' do. I want them to recognize for themselves what they should do and have the confidence and courage to do it.
I’ve learned the only way to stop criticism is to stop doing things that are worthwhile.
Both these guys are my heros and get a lot of firing line criticism I’m sure. I asked a mutual friend of Kurt’s a while ago what he did when people were knocking him down and he said he takes a moment to feel the emotion, see if there is any truth in it that can help him be a better man and then steps into Warrior mode and soldiers forward.
Having a strong Band of Brothers to feed my soul with positivity and strength has helped immensely. Come to AZ bootcamp mentioned by Kurt and hang out with us and see just how good life is when surrounded by men who are seeking Christ, praying for each other, and have each others backs. Greg, would love to see you there too.
If there is any way I can encourage the brothers, I'm a 70 yr old single sister, I want to do that.
oh my. i still need to watch the video. but these comments make clear that Isaiah has come knocking. I wonder what April General Conference will hold for us.
Dan, you're a super nice person! Can you give any more specifics on what you mean?
The loss of Church sports, to me, has attributed greatly to the decline of the men and boys in our church. This is why.. my husband played church sports all the 50 years we were married. Our 4 sons all played, our daughters played softball and volleyball, so did i. It was some of the funnest greatest memories of our family. The physical exercise, the sportsmanship, and sometime unsportsmanship, ALL were good.. taught us soooooo many good things. Then it all stopped.. why? Our sons that have served in the last 6 years as bishops say kids don't want to do sports.. they don't even know how.. being physically active is a important as being spiritually active.. especially for men and boys.
My son would go to Young mens and nothing would be prepared so they would end up playing basketball. I told the leaders that what I told my son, if he shows up and the only activity is basketball, he is free to leave. I love sports and I love the gospel, mixing the two has always been difficult.
For us all the boys did was play sports and bully the boys that were not athletic. My worst decision as a parent was making my son go to young men's activities. I did not know about the bullying until much later. Scouts was a joke. He did get his Eagle, was the first boy in many years to complete the duty to God, and his leaders did very little to help him when they helped the popular boys. Sports are great but should not be the focus of every activity.
Speaking as a current 17 year old young man they rarely choose important educational physical activities. I would much rather split wood or learn how to build something than play basketball because while it can be fun the standard sports arent lasting experiences.
@@nolankarns3332wait till you are 18 and an adult . Then u can decide anything u want to do . And not what your parents want you to do . Build a homeless house .
Give to the poor personally . Create . Do the will of God . Hit it with a hammer -
Brother .
@@kevindavis5416 Im already doing a lot of those things youtube.com/@goodtimber this is my families youtube channel Ive built a cabin on a mountain. We had the young men in our ward up for a campout one weekend and one of them even came up on his own the next week to work. Theres something about hard work outdoors that speaks to a mans soul. When you work with trees especially you can feel the soul of the tree. Sorry if Im rambling Im just really passionate about this stuff.
Im a young man (21). In a recent stake priesthood meeting the theme was centered around this General Conference talk. I’m so glad that the stake addressed the issues facing men right now.
I’ve also had my fair share of men’s activities being canceled while the women’s activities go unhindered. In my current ysa ward the women had their campout. A few weeks later there was stake campout (for men and women). But no campout was ever planned this summer for the men of the ysa ward. It sucked
Few man ever told their wife she couldn't attend a RS activity, but tons of women have told their husbands they weren't allowed to attend an EC event, especially if it only served the men and didn't force the men to serve a single mother or widow.
I can’t help but remember the words of our prophet, reminding us that we won’t survive spiritually without personal revelation. Imagine how men and women could move forward together, following the spirit, making friends, hosting activities, etc? The church doesn’t have to do this FOR us. The task is on us. Follow the spirit, be WORTHY of the spirit and watch the transformations happen.
Great reminder Rachel Haskins!
100% this!
The church has beaten down fathers who seek revelation for their families. It is either personal revelation or general authority revelation that is acceptable, but fatherhood is a threat to local control. When a father says his family will be doing something different than the congregation, the church sends men across that farther's threshold to tell him some other revelation supercedes his.
Please keep discussing this! This conversation needs to be heard far and wide in the church. I feel a personal urgency. I have felt like the church is FAILING my husband, for years. (And subsequently worried for my sons). There is a lack of spirituality because he feels he does not like church. He was converted to the church, a church with a different vibe. It all started with being invited to play church basketball.
I’ll keep talking about it.
What a great, much needed and important conversation! As the mother of 3 men I am saddened by the way the whole world is changing their view and treatment of men. This inspires me to advocate for change. Thanks Greg! 👏🏻
Love it!
We need strong, diligent, spiritual, masculine men in the church...men who understand what it really means to honor their priesthood and are purposeful in it's use. I'm incredibly grateful to be married to a man like this. He loves and he leads.
Leah. Yes, amen, absolutely! I couldn't agree more with your comment.
We also need strong, diligent, spiritual feminine women in the church...women who understand what it really means to honor the priesthood and are purposeful in supporting, encouraging, and uniting with their husband in its proper use, to bless the family.
Just the fact that you recognize your husband as that type of man and express your gratitude for him being that man, shows that you are that type of woman also. It sounds like you are "equally yoked" in your marriage. It sounds like you and your husband have learned and understand that marriage and family life is a team sport that is designed to unite a husband & wife, rather than make them competitors. I compliment you both and admire what you and your husband have. May God bless both of you as you continue to stand united in leading and caring for your family.
Yeah I think all the lost men already know this. Happy for you though.
Some women have emasculated the men in their lives.
Even setting up tables and chairs or helping with a move alongside my brothers gives me a fierce joy that I crave. When I was a teenager I didn't especially like being called to help with moves, but something kept me showing up for them, and in time I realized what it was: that working side by sice with other men in a common purpose. I don't even have to particularly get along with or personally like the other men I'm working with. If I'm working alongside them, I'm happy.
Thank you both for discussing this. As a woman in the church I feel like this is extremely important right now. Very good insights and points, thanks for sharing it with us.
A battle to fight
An adventure to live
A beauty to love
Preach it!
I wrote it on my son's whiteboard, except I changed it to a "woman to champion."
@@rolandsmith4394 I like your adjustment.
@@stephaniecousins3094 thanks. It's the romantic in me.
This is the most important podcast you’ve had. Sadly EQ doesn’t offer much to the men. We spend about an hour and a half together each month and hear from the same four guys about their missions and great spiritual achievements. We haven’t had any kind of gathering in over a year.
I heard 10 seconds of this and immediately felt heard for the first time in a long time. I would love for our seers to not (like it appears to me) only react but to get ahead of the struggles we feel and support us. Just to be heard for me might be support enough. But I lament cause I am heard by two guys I’ve never heard of before and not the men that are suppose to be my shepherds.
I learned over time that certain (most) church brethren / leaders, were willing to listen to you more to sus out what you thought so they could check up on your 'non- church' thinking or beliefs and as such were at best well meaning policemen. They were not able to be your friend because much of their 'testimony' was attained by learning some good principles and additions to their soul's life, but then mindlessly accepting all other church teachings as certain facts and calling this whole collective of concepts 'knowledge'. They were not free to, nor were they ever encouraged to engage in independent thought. I am not talking about advocating proud or rebellious questionings: - but rather suggest that many are called to rise within the church before they have cut their teeth on the disciplines of character including the disciplines of sound reasoning. So they have much 'knowledge' to questions their soul was not asking not were they willing to stake their soul on to struggle to find out.
It is a fact to my mind that just as Jesus was allowed to learn certain things 'by the things which He suffered', that so must many of us too: - in fact this is necessary.
I will be forever grateful to certain brethren (and they are few) who in leadership positions in the church could see the sincerety of a soul's heart beyond all else. Such individuals reflect and display the true love of Christ, without which the world and the church are lost.
It seems to me that just because a ward needs a bishop or the stake needs a president that there is always someone to call to fill the role. This individual so called and set apart no doubt grows as they apply themselves to the task: but many don't have the wisdom or life experience as a servant of God to where their very best will allow them to effectively help those the are supposed to lead: so they folliw the 'church manual', cling to the prophet etc., but have not had an original thought themselves too much.
Better perhaps to have 'acting bishops' etc., until enough real men of God have been fired in the kiln of life (under God).
Thank you for your effort to read this far.
What’s up Aaron?! Hope you’re well! This is the 2nd time I’ve listened to this cause it’s great and saw your comment. I agree with you! I’m serving as EQ President and love this podcast. As I read your comment and as I’m serving as President, I’d love for elders to give me suggestions like you mentioned. If you feel they aren’t being proactive and should address things differently, let them know. I would definitely not be offended and would adjust our discussions. I’m definitely going to be and have been adjusting our activities and meetings. Good luck out there.
I had the exact same response to the first few seconds, it hit me like lightning. I deal with so much pain and grief over these issues and I agree with you that our leaders are lagging behind these issues. It almost feels as if they are even promoting the problem rather than striving to fix it. I still wait on the Lord with faith in these things. Wishing you the best man.
Talking about structure (min. 29:30): I felt lost and a little bit abandoned, because I realized I had been viewing life as a series of gates on a conveyor belt. Age 8, get baptized, become a Cub Scout. Age 9 - a Bear Cub Scout; 10 - Webelos Scout; 11 - Boy Scout; 12 - deacon; 14 - teacher; 16 - priest; 18, graduate high school; 19 mission. Then, there were no more gates. I just fell off the conveyor belt onto the floor. I didn't know where to go to figure it out. I'm still trying to figure it out 30 years later. It is hard to connect with other men to figure it out.
This may be why the new youth program encourages individuals to set their own goals rather than following a predetermined path of goals so that they have the tools and skills necessary to do this when they become adults.
I was attending the Warrior Heart retreat this last weekend when this posted and I have to add a resounding AMEN to everything Kurt and Greg discussed. I was invited by a friend and had no idea what I was getting in to. For 3 days I disconnected from the world so I could connect with God and the transformation in my heart and soul is life changing. When I was seeking what Father would call me, and received a name from him, I was filled with joy and love. It made me feel more alive than anything I've done in years of trying to be a good husband and father. Thank you both for sharing.
No offense, but why does it take a retreat for this discovery and transformation to happen? It's really odd that we should be able to get this within the walls of our homes or our quorum, but are forced to go elsewhere for this.
@@austinmartineau5227 I think the retreat offered what the quorum and my home can't - dedicated space, free of distractions, being disconnected from work and my phone, with time to just focus on the topic at hand. You can pick up Eldredge's book, I highly recommend it, all of the content for the retreat came from there. But just reading it and thinking about what I read didn't prompt the experiences I had at the retreat. Being in the company of the other men, the brotherhood we built, the friendships we started were all facilitated in this event. The retreat is what we all want EQ to be, but our church culture doesn't foster the environment the retreat creates.
Today is your day! Go fight your battle, win or lose…do it with honor, courage and 100% commitment. If you fail, then you will fail with your head held high!knowing you are among the few that knows what it feels like to be alive! Risk is a must in anything worth doing.
It's not just a problem in the church. This is happening in all of America and Europe and we have to realize that we're up against powerful cultural forces that want men to be weak and flimsy husks. It'll require serious effort to reverse the trajectory we're on as a people.
Those who wish for nothing but greater power for themselves definitely don't want strong defenders among the populace.
It's political. And no one wants to get political, so it's not goin to happen. This is all just talk and pretend. "oh dear, what shall we do? Goodness gracious, well let's discuss it, but make sure we don't offend anyone's political ideology. So.....once again, what can we do about. Well blablablabalblablablablab....and you know blablablablablablablaaaa, and bla blablabaaa, so I suppose blablablaaa. What do you think? Tell me your feeeeelings? do you agree? Oh no let's not offend the politically sensitive individuals in the audience, so blablablaaaa.........."
You both hit the nail on the head with your comments, thank you! It’s not a popular stance but it needs to be talked about. Raised by a young widow with no male father figure, I now love relying on my husband to tackle the challenges that are traditionally masculine in nature. I can probably figure out how to change the oil on my car, but I really don’t want to. I’d rather my husband just do it and I’ll make that sandwich thank you very much. Brethren, if you want a challenge, jump into a home renovation project and finish it. Your wife will love you for it and you’ll be quite impressed with yourself too:)
When I was EQP 5-8 years ago. I was told I was the the best EQP in North America. I don't say this to brag but I must mention that my Stake President instructed me to have weekly meetings with my presidency and find a member to visit. I followed his direction and prepared strong meetings. It lead to the reactivation of several folks and providing a great deal of Service. Our lessons on Sunday were pure fire. I magnified my calling. We don't have folks doing that now. They are filling a slot.
I love this episode. As a man who has been thru a 3 year addiction addiction recovery program that changed my life & taught me how to be a true version of a man. I fully agree with being real, confident & courageous. Most may mistake this conversation of being a macho man! That's not what being strong is. Willing to be honest, not live in denial, stand for truth, be an example of genuineness. To me, these are what a man...a true man of God is. I'm not an outdoorsman...never really cared much for going camping & hiking. It simply isn't me. However, I believe that these men retreats can hold the same effect by doing different things than going into nature. For example...I once held a men's Saturday get together where we talked about passion, courage, & never giving up. I played a awesome song by skillet - "lions" then shared the story of Sorichio Honda. The founder of Honda & all he went through to achieve his dreams. Love his quote. "Dare to do the things others only dream of." Then we played a race simulator on a 100 foot screen & competed with one another. This allowed me to share my passion of the automotive industry & what i do for a living because God guided me to do what I love with cars. I have a goal to do this at a real race track one day! Me and three friends (brothers) get together once a week and have a real, fun, and engaging place online as we play video games together. Using team work, competing in a healthy way & engaging. Video games are like anything else. They can be used in a bad way, but they aren't inherently bad. My wife fully supports thos because she sees how the connection with men helps me.
I'm a bishop & I have openly shared my story over the pulpit & its amazing to me the men & women who come up thanking me that I'm so real because it gives them permission to be real & it gives the men in our ward the example of how we need to live who we are. Not some fake facade! I also grew up without a father so showing my two boys what a true man is. Burns in my chest! That comes by being there with my wife and showing them how I treat her, love her so much, & we have honest and respecting conversations.
thank you for clarifying to people!
@@CwicShow Thanks for hearing it!
This conversation is deeply frustrating. I’m now a single mom who was married in the temple. I have seen and felt the effects personally for my own family due to the many ills men deal with these days. I feel for men. It cannot be easy to be a man in this climate. At the same time, I have sons that I am raising. I want them to feel confident and empowered as sons of God. I don’t want to emasculate them. But what does that look like?
Church ball was not the answer for my husband. He loved playing, but it did nothing for his inner struggles. I don’t know that the answer is more programs for men. I’m not saying that there is no place for activities for men, but I think the root of the problem is so much deeper.
It’s makes me think of the quote from Ezra Taft Benson, “The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums.”
There are many other women I know who are carrying the heavy load of single motherhood because their husbands have been led by worldly desires in various ways. It is the times we are living in. Only Christ has the power to change our hearts-if we ALLOW him.
Regarding masculinity, was Christ masculine? I love the lyrics from the song Gethsemane, “The hardest thing that ever was done,
The greatest pain that ever was known,
The biggest battle that ever was won-
This was done by Jesus!
The fight was won by Jesus!” But what did that look like? What is masculinity? Yes, I want my sons to know that they have power within them to do incredibly hard and challenging things, but more importantly, through Christ they can do all things. What does that look like? It may be different for each of us, but I think one of the problems may be that we all see masculinity so differently. Why not look to the source of all truth for what that is and what that should look like?
Clearly I don’t have the answers. All I can do is pray and continue to trust in the Lord and act in faith.
Appreciate this!
This is the question I was hoping they would directly answer as well.
I don't have answers. But I do know the problem relates to a refusal to acknowledge that men and women are fundamentally different creatures. We all need to respect that. Our Heavenly parents are fundamentally different. Gender confusion and feminism are Satan's prime tools to destroy us.
Loved your comment. Raising 3 boys, the best book I ever listened to was "Mother & Son: The Respect Effect" by Emerson Eggerich.
@@jillosborn6886 Thanks Jill! I’ll have to check that out.
Can you get this in front of the brethren? i was VERY UPSET when priesthood session was changed!!! I felt like the Church was acting in acquiescence to pressures of the world saying hey look we're not male shovanists NO we NEED WARRIORS OF THE LORDS TYPE AND THAT WAS OUR MEETING!!!!
Hi. My husband passed 1 1/2 years ago. Every Conference he and his boys went out for dinner, after attending conference I thought it was terrible when they stopped that session.
This was time well spent!!!! Thank You BOTH!!! Please consider more episodes between the 2 of you - this topic is so central to our healing as a people, or at least in groups/wards etc where people are open to healthy change. So very grateful. This is one of my favorites you've ever done, Greg.
@kurtfrancom is my hero. He’s a true Superman battling for the hearts of men. Thank you for having the courage to speak the words my heart needed to hear.
Serving a mission was my battle/adventure from my primary years up to the end of my mission. My gf waited for me, so I was married less than a year later. Getting my degree and a job was the next battle but after that it was just 'coasting along' with no great battle to fight and I really felt the lack of it. I filled it with getting involved in politics for a while, then with some hobbies that challenged me. Men need something to struggle against, a struggle that is meaningful to them.
Everyone needs goals
As a YW president, I can testify of the utmost importance of the men in the church. These girls NEED their fathers and they need to know WHY they need their guidance, leadership, and love. The world is very loud, if we aren't teaching our youth then the world will teach them for us...and it will not be good or beneficial to their salvation by any means.
We need masculine men so we can continue to raise up a righteous people, so we can have good role models for these young women to look up to and to aspire to have in a husband. Not just that, but when the fathers are present and strong in their family's life, it teaches these young women how to respect themselves and what to accept for themselves from others around them.
We need our fathers to pry into their family's life, to be a little nosy and check in with their children. Open the lines of communication so it chases out shame and the want to hide things. It starts with the men bringing things into the light.
Men need to have purpose in front of their faces constantly. It is what fulfills us. If we are distracted or dissuaded by purpose, we don't know what to do with ourselves. We need more messaging, teaching, and support about purpose, goal, fulfillment with Christ as the example and a look toward the Plan of Salvation.
💯
You have a huge role in this. Teach the ladies to honor and cherish the priesthood held by the men. Ask them to let their dads champion them. Ask them to *find* opportunities to ask for fathers' blessings. Your big challenge is the man haters. Every ward has them, be honest.
I read Strong Fathers Strong Daughters on the urging a female friend and was very humbled at how badly I was failing … but as a father of five I gotta show up and have made a lot of changes.
@roland smith Yes! Yes! Yes! This exactly. All our lives we're taught that we need to be good priesthood holders and lead our family. When we are not supported or even allowed to lead our family in FHE, family prayer, family scripture, family gospel study, give priesthood blessings, participate in family decisions, that is when we become dead inside. When the man in a family is relegated to only be the bank teller who hands all of the money over and then is not respected, appreciated, listened to, or allowed to participate in family decisions, that is when a man dies inside.
We need to feel needed. We need to be appreciated for the sacrifices we make for our family. Our opinions matter. We need to be trusted and also not lied to.
The cliché that all a man wants is sex is so shallow and superficial. What a man wants is to be respected, appreciated, needed, trusted, and included.
My father and my family converted in 1976 in Connecticut. There were lots of factors. One of them that he credits to his joining the church was church sports. And yes, these were chippy and feisty at many times. However, it was the first that interacted with religious people that were like him. He was a church goer most of his life, and the men were greatly outnumbered by the women the men that attended were soft, subdued and of the Ned Flanders type. Witnessing these examples both good and bad played a key role in his conversion. My dad was a great example to me then as well as today. He has stayed true to the faith over the years.
Excellent point. Church sports was very competitive, but it was one of the best ways to get men out and doing things together.
Because of the competitive and aggressive nature of sports men--especially young men--get good socialization from it if care is taken to emphasis sportsmanship.
I left the LDS church three years ago. I experienced the effects of becoming the submissive Mr. Nice Guy. Part of which included heightened anxiety and insecurity in my relationships (which is not attractive). On the other side of my journey in my post-Mormon world many of the criticisms include highlighting and deconstructing hierarchy, patriarchy, and toxic masculinity. Thus providing insight to me that it's useful to not take any virtue or concept to extremes. I also grew up with a father who didn't have a father, who didn't know how to father - he found his identity in Mormonism and is kind and submissive before anything else. Kindness is a wonderful trait and so is courage, strength, assertiveness, and standing for values of dignity, respect, love, safety, protection, and family. I've been attempting to carve out my balancing point with masculinity. I used to float day by day in my perceived role as a man (i.e. Mr. Nice Guy) whereas now I take ownership of my finances, my fitness, my education and critical thinking, and my relationships. Rather than have my first move be to defer I now utilize dialogue and consider what I want and what others want. I aim for collaborative and connected - and I don't hit the bullseye every time and that's okay. I do take it upon myself to learn how to improve. As Kurt points out, connection leads to developing insights related to mental and emotional wellness that can be used daily to provide, protect, and connect. I believe many men in the LDS church and out of the LDS church are looking to find relationships that are supportive of a fulfilling life.
Nearly all men in the Western world struggle with that lack of meaning. That’s why Jordan Peterson is selling out arenas in hundreds of cities across the globe- just to listen to him speak. That’s why John Vervaeke, professor of Psychology and a cognitive neuroscientist at the U of Toronto, has a 50 part series here on CZcams called “The Meaning Crisis”, that has millions of views. Those of us in the church need to do better at discussing this, both with our fellow brethren as well as those not of our faith. The truth about meaning is that it comes as we pursue worthwhile goals - the adventure of our life - and as we build genuine human connections.
What were you submissive to? Hope you don't mind me asking. I ask because being submissive to "the church" or other men will become a nightmare over time. Submitting to God, on the other hand, is entirely different and is a spiritual act, not a social act. If you submit to God, you will actually end up being more secure, happy, at peace, courageous, wise, fearless, kind, humble, and even powerful. Why? Because God has every good quality to the highest degree, and He will grant you some of His power. But He can't do it unless you submit.
My ward had an annual 'Man Camp' every summer until covid. It wasn't a formal church activity, just the men deciding on their own to go do it, every guy 12 and over welcome.
That reminds me of one family in an old ward who’s daughter was insulted that there was a camp out just for the guys to commemorate the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood and demanded that the girls should be able to go too.
So it was announced the the daughters were also welcome.
What a load of crap.
@@thunderandrain09 Our stake holds separate YM and YW camps each summer. The church even owns a campground a few hours away and July is reserved for YW camps only. It's a pretty nice place with showers, flush toilets etc. They guys prefer to rough it out in the wilds. Having YW and YM camping together seems like a bad idea to me, and likely against church policy.
@@incogneato790 same.
I’m talking about the yearly father and sons outing.
Wow!!! This is incredible! My husband and I have a road trip planned for Saturday, I can’t wait to listen to this and discuss it together! I know he will be as excited about this as I am!
I love that even your thumbnail and name showes unity!
I agree with a lot of what was said - I find myself attracted to men who do in fact have their own life, have their own things going for them, enjoys spending time with his friends, is comfortable in his own masculinity. Those things are very attractive. Encouraging the men in our lives to go after the adventure in their hearts is so important because the epidemic of how “dead” men are nowadays really does worry me. What there really needs to be is balance. I don’t know what needs to be done to help resolve this problem, but I just try to love and encourage the men in my life as much as I can 💖
Very good discussion. I really needed this! Thanks so much!!
Glad you enjoyed it!
There is a difference between being kind and being nice. Being nice is phony, being kind is telling the truth.
Brethren, I feel this in my bones. I have felt this level of isolation, loneliness, and deep depression. I love Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I love the Church. I love President Nelson and all of the General Athorities. I want to love every member of my Ward, and I jump at the chance to go and serve and help anyone, not just members of my Ward. However, none of it seems to really be edifying. Like stated, I only feel a deeper guilt trip at the end of the day, at the end of Elders Quorum, at the end of my meetings for my callings, at the end of Church every Sunday. I've not broken commandments, I've not broken covenants, I'm happily married and sealed in the Temple, have a beautiful daughter, and generally see all of the blessings that Heavenly Father bestows upon me and my family. What I do not feel is the love returned to me from those whom I would like to build friendships with. I don't blame those other brothers; I blame our current social culture. Time is always under stress; what do I do with this small amount of time I have?
This is the best discussion I've heard about masculinity and the Church.
What an incredible subject to consider! This is a critical topic. We need to spend more time and thought to create venues and incredible adventures that have purpose. Keep talking. Keep bringing this topic up. For the sake of our men and our sons to have purpose and true meaning. Our men are such an under accessed resource. One of our greatest.
Absolutely!
Thankfully our sons need only turn to God to determine their purpose and true meaning, no?
@@TheArtOfNurturingHearts Obviously everyone needs to turn to God to find purpose, but when you use the word "only" you make it waaaaaaay too simplistic.
NSFC (Not Safe for Church) but when the prodigal son came to himself he likely said, “What the hell am I doing? This isn’t me!”
J Golden Kimball approves of this story.
@@erichays7379 I refuse to call myself a nice guy. Though, I'm still working on being "kind", my goal isn't "niceness".
Wow! I saw myself in this discussion. Worthy of my further consideration. Thank you.
Great topic - when my husband was EQP he found two big issues - men thought you had to fit into a specific mold to be active or accepted and men didn’t feel like they had support or friendship at church. My husband did his best to crush both issues. He targeted these two issues - in 18 months he went from 12 men attending EQ meetings to over 90 men attending. We didn’t have a huge move in rate - this was mostly working with activating the current pool of men on the rolls. One thing he did was encourage the men to be men, to step up and lead their families. He encourage the men to socialize outside of church with each other - etc.
Awesome!
Hello
I’m a mom of 5 sons..
and very active in the Christian community
Active LDS member too..
Other churches get men a ton better than we do!!!
They have men’s groups!
They talk about men’s needs and support each other as leaders in their homes openly supporting each other to be great husbands and fathers.
I’ve spoken for 20 years in our LDS circles how we need this too
We need Fathers and Sons groups!
There’s a book called Raising a Modern Day Knight that speaks to this.
Men are Wild at Heart and have large physical needs.
Nerds and feminine men are praised in our LDS circles..
But there are many other types of personalities!
I agree that our sons need more connection with other boys and men. My son and daughters invite friends over to our house on a regular basis. They plan youth dances (swing dancing with uplifting music) every two months that attract 70+ youth. I've worked hard to connect my sons and daughters with great male and female role models. They are involved with a community choir, as well as an acting group. My children are thriving socially, solely because they make the effort to do so. We cannot possibly expect an organization to fill each of our social needs because each one of us is different with varying needs. We have to be responsible for our own lives. And this is coming from someone who use to isolate herself in her home, waiting for others to reach out, until God gave me a wake up call one day informing me that I would regret not making the effort to connect with those around me. Everyone is lonely. Everyone is waiting for someone to save them from their lonliness. Choosing to connect with others requires effort, but the results are so worth it! Truly, it is the only path to genuine connection. When we adopt greater responsibility, we find greater meaning.
They are praised? Not in my lds church.. we called them loosers
@@TheArtOfNurturingHearts I love this!!!
Completely agree. There are 2 groups I know of MDK Knights and Squire program(Father/Son camp), that would be great for our men. But I think we have the resources to create something within our church, that has Christ as the foundation.
Hmmm it's interesting that many of the trad wife channels on YT talk about how church is the worst place to meet men. Beta leaning, effeminate, wispy voiced men. I see this as well in the LDS church. Hate to point out the obvious but it correlates with the movement to get women in leadership roles in the church. What women need most of all are masculine competent productive high value worthy priesthood holders.
This is so great!! Thank you! I have raised 6 boys and I feel like they are lost so thank you!
This topic was one of the main things I thought a lot about when I heard the church planned to separate from the Boy Scouts of America. I don't think I fully appreciated scouting while I was a part of it as I should have. I feel I was able to benefit by getting involved in what a young man naturally needs to prepare for being an adult man. Looking back, I believe scouts also provided my adult leaders many of these masculine opportunities you mentioned in this segment. It's very sad to me that, while I was able to experience the best of scouts, my son's will never be able to fully experience and appreciate what that program (joined with the LDS church) meant to me. I guess each generation has one thing or another that they have seen lost in the changing culture as time goes on. As the scout breakup was announced, I was under the impression that the church was going to create an alternative program and was excited to see a program come out and exceed expectations and accomplish what the BSA could never accomplish due to those limitations and various problems under their watch. I understand that President Nelson directed that we need to focus on a church endorsing a gospel centered home (not the other way around) and I definitely agree with that model. I also feel we've lost some of that needed network to get out and be men, especially since COVID.
My experience in scouting started with a scout camp in utah, son came back ans said I'm never going again! .. no explanation til the next year when he told me his scout master expected all the boys to get in his sleeping bag 🙄; next was his first R rated movie at leaders house - in basement and other boys "took turns with daughter during movie"; next daughter had first abortion at age 14; went on YSA river run when stake brought more rafts than allowed; stake pres councillor stopped n almost arrested for taking youth down river more times than allowed ... that is tip of iceberg ... all happened in Utah.
@@bettescott950 I hope that you’re exaggerating about the sleeping bag. That’s disgusting. Why weren’t there two leaders present? Rafting story is funny actually, the R movie issue is maddening but normal, but the taking turns with the daughter thing, did this really happen?!? Holy smokes people are messed up. I’m sure the adults were charged for sexual abuse in both cases with the daughter and sleeping bag?
Good and a much-needed episode! This needs to discussed at church in Elders Quorum, but I'm sure it won't.
One huge pet peeve of mine is the passive, milquetoast men in the church frequently refer to their wife to make the decisions and say "I better ask the boss first." No woman wants to be married to a man-child where she has to be in the masculine role in marriage or mother him. These guys really should grow some and man up and take the lead.
Being a "good man" is not the same as being good at being a man. I'm so glad my son decided to join the USMC rather than go on a church mission. He went in a teenage boy and truly became a masculine man after his 4 years.
It really peeves me when bishops and stake presidents virtue signal to the feminists: "dear sisters and brothers."
I respectfully disagree that no woman wants to be married to a man child. Many women have controlling personalities and they like being in charge of the marriage. The man will often cave in because the woman will take away what he wants. In fact, I live in Utah and many of the LDS men I know are very passive with respect to their wife. They think they are being respectful and loving, but they are actually timid. The women love it because they get whatever they want.
@@kevins4254 usually what happens is the wife hooks the man by relying on him and praising his manhood. Later she becomes controlling and demanding, then lastly she demands complete controll. If the husband resists, she brings in the lawyers.
I joined the Corps right out of High School and never looked back. My middle son just finished Army basic. Missions aren’t for everyone, despite what is said. But it takes all kinds and I see a lot of value in Missions as well. Regardless, most young men need to head out on an adventure after graduation and before marriage.
@@rolandsmith4394 I've noticed this and recoiled at the kowtowing to PC that it represents
Guys, thanks for being real. You presented a lot of wisdom here.
Great discussion, greg. This was excellent 👏 👌 👍. We need to hear more of this. Excellent content!!
Greg,
In our ward we have an Elders Quorum breakfast every third Saturday. The attendance ranges from 8 to 14. This breakfast has been going for almost two years. The men that attend love it.
Awesome! Very important.
Curious to know if having the monthly breakfasts has improved the connection felt during EQ meeting on Sundays. Also, has it lead to men connecting with each other to do other activities throughout the week? Or is it just come, eat, and leave. Repeat next month.
@@TheArtOfNurturingHearts its not just come and eat. We announce any needs in the Quorum. We had two men who were investigating the gospel attend before and each said that getting to know the brethren help them during their conversion process. We have a man attending who has been excommunicated and hopefully the fellowship will assist him in path back to the gospel. During the month of December we invite the spouses to attend. The brethren who attended love it. At one time we had 22 brethren attend the brethren. I hope this answers your questions 🙏
I love this topic. It is a tragedy that we don't take the initiative to embrace other men and build a brotherhood. This is something I'm going to work on. Thank you for this discussion.
When I also joined the Masons I immediately had friends not just co-workers in a second job. Loved lodge much more than EQ
My husband and I are watching and we love all of your topics ! My husband said the men in the church have had some important things taken away ….. like the Scouting Program ……. And a lot of activities that the church had for the youth when he was young like basketball and softball ! Another thing that has changed through the years is we don’t see the leaders stepping up and being strong with what is going on in the world today ……. They are very quit ……. Geez 🙄 and your right where are the men and where are the leaders in the church ! To much milk toast …… We love the Gospel and the church but we feel like masculinity in the church and society is disappearing !!
Yep.
Personally, I'm happy the scout program is gone. Too many people doing it because they were supposed to, not because they wanted (on leader and boy side)
We are going camping tonight with young men - we don't need scouts for that!
Amen!!! Keep promoting this information.. we need it!!
Thank you, I will
Thank you for speaking about this! This has been very inspiring. It is practical, and the Gospel is fundamentally practical.
Great podcast! Helps me to be okay having healthy fun. Listened to it while driving my sports car on twisty roads! 😊❤
Many years ago, when I was a new RS member, just out of young women's, I said, Meekness is not weakness. The Saviour was not weak, he was meek. I was criticized by the teacher, so this line of thought has been happening for decades.
What was the criticism? Jesus was not weak?
This is the best one yet. I'll have to listen to this twice.
Love the content!
Ive heard the same principal expressed as: Something to do , Something to hope for, and someone to Love.
A masculine man prepares his lesson. He doesn't read a talk then pause ro see if someone has a question. I have so much to say on this.
Amen!! And watch for who in the audience is checked out or looking uncomfortable. I have a prayer group I ask to pray for the hearts of the men when I’m assigned to teach and to check my ego at the door and go after them like a Lion. One of my favorite titles for Christ is Lion of Judah. When I finally let Him in, He ignited me in ways I didn’t expect, and He invites us to be the same in battling for the hearts of other men and our families.
wow. I needed to hear this. Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
FANTASTIC interview - and BADLY NEEDED topic!
Thank you!
my two lds fav content creators. Great job kings.
Not sure of the solutions you present here, but I agree with the diagnosis. Adventure trips and sports aren't a great fit for all (or even most men) that I know. So it still misses the mark a bit, but this is such an important topic that I hope you keep talking about it. Ultimately men need to know that they are filling an important role and that they are needed-- which they are.
Exactly!
I agree @98layton.
Very true one size does not fit all. What would be ideal for you 88layton?
It's not about the activity, necessarily, though those are great, it's about the hallway conversations, the conversations on the bench or the hike, it's the conversation in the ride to and from, or over the cars in the parking lot after.
@@zionssuburb Wow, this is 100% correct. Study after study and study show that as men age, they become increasingly islolated, they lack real connection in their lives, and this leads to all sorts of remedies to cope.
Thanks for discussing this! ❤❤❤
Of course
Very interesting discussion. Thank you both.
You're welcome.
Thank you! Us women need men’s strength and support. And sometimes that looks like doing the dishes but that’s certainly not all of it. Most of the time I just need my husband’s steadiness. While I’m worrying and crying and feeling like I’m falling apart at times he’s there listening, discussing and comforting me. And I feel validated and whole.
talk about hitting the nail on the head. Our society does not want strong men that’s the message that they are receiving. We need strong men, women love strength.
This message is not getting to men. They get mixed messages from women. Some things must be learned from strong fathers.
Having served as EQP for the last 3 1/2 years, this discussion is on point. That said, even when trying to confront men in quorum about what they “need” from each other or what a quorum needs to be FOR THEM, that question is often met with silence.
Other issues, and it’s discussed here, is the paltry budget given for men to have activities in the church. Even how the quorum is often shuffled off to the conveniently empty spot in the building for regular meetings (often a stage behind a curtain or a spare bunch of pews in the chapel when other meetings are done), while every other “group” has a dedicated room for their meetings…there is a cultural problem of relegating the EQ to a background role.
To quote a line from a favorite movie “You people were given a Lamborghini and you treated it like a lawn mower!”…that’s how we use or treat the EQ, and we wonder why the men act like a lawn mower instead of a Lamborghini.
As a long time member of the church, I have found that the opportunities for men are usually centered in the Elder's Quorum, Unfortunately most Elder's Quorums are just another Sunday School class in a different space. I think that most of the things that men would find uplifting could be accomplished in an active Elder's Quorum where all the members of the quorum are bound together by rubbing shoulders together. I have been in such quorums in the past. There was always a full room. The spirit there drew quorum leaders from other wards to experience it and see what they could do to duplicate it. I was an instructor for this group and had the OK of the Quorum leader to institute some programs. First, we, as a quorum, determined that we needed to do significant service projects once a quarter (share our sweat); we would bear our testimonies to each other each first Sunday (share our spirit); every major holiday we talked about our favorite holiday (shared our feelings). In addition, lessons would draw all into the discussion where they would share how they feel about the concept being taught (cause them to evaluate how they were doing on this concept). The last thing was a quarterly quorum social for the elders and their wives. This program was implemented and we became a very spiritual quorum that enjoyed each other and looked forward to work projects, lessons and socials. In less than a year we were the most spiritual quorum in the stake and had numerour visitors from other wards to visit to see what we were doing. The quorum continued until the leader and I were given other assignments.
I wanted a strong man that could show our sons and daughter what it is to be a man of God that loves his family. I wanted him to spend time with worthy men enjoying experiences. Teaching our sons to be men. There isn't enough in the church to build strength in the brotherhood. My husband fell away and didn't spend time with our children. I wanted so much for him, but work was always his priority. I encouraged him to connect with other brethren. I never expected him to be there all the time, but he needed to be there for our family. Everyone needs something outside the Family. I wanted a strong man who wanted to build our family into an eternal family. Thank you for sharing!! My husband was lukewarm in the gospel for years. He wouldn't go with me to the temple. He would get angry with me when I did. He would take the boys to General Priesthood Session. There was so much wrong in our marriage. We were both choosing different paths. He chose the honors of men and worldly things that did not align with being a man of God. I chose God and our family.
Most every woman wants this.
I'm sure my wife is wrongly saying something like this about me. Divorce is not the answer. Just tell him *you* need him. Most men wouldn't marry in the temple at all, let alone have children, without yearning to be a real man. 60% of divorced are filed by women! That statistic says it all.
My heart goes out to you. You described me a few years back. I was so steeped in shame about my own struggles I wanted to drag everyone else down to my level. Praying for him to get ignited and feel he is worthy and needed for God’s love.
What Kurt didn’t mention is that there are always a few men at bootcamp who’s tuition was paid for by their wife and they aren’t sure if they will be invited back into the house when they return. I’ve seen a few make a real turn around. Others are “past feeling” and too comfortable in addiction and or complacency to change right away. Hard lessons.
Perhaps it's not the church that hasn't done enough to build strength with the other brethren, but, rather, not enough strong brethren willing to take the initiative to connect with other brethren. The church provides tools for connection (regular gathering, ministering), but it is the personal responsibility of each of us to do the actual connecting.
@@TheArtOfNurturingHearts the church doesn't have any responsibilities outside supporting families and proscribing ordinances. What it does outside of those responsibilities probably hurts more than helps.
Great discussion I enjoyed it and am motivated by it. I agree with Kurt's pinned comment though too. I just sent this to a friend of mine and explained to him that this reminds me of what I'll refer to as the zone conference effect. I remember as a missionary getting pumped up from a zone conference but transferring that motivation to real work in the field was difficult. I'm motivated by this but I'm still going to struggle with the now what.
Well said!
Thank you for your straight talk on real things that are happening for us. Lets get real and spread these things things througout our respective Quorums.
This is a breath of fresh air! 🫡💯💣💣💣💣🙏☝️💎🪓🔪🧨⚔️🛠️🧰💶💡💡💡💡⏰
I've found elders' quorum very fulfilling. It's not 100%, but I've had wonderful lessons in elders' quorum where the key has been being open to asking hard questions and honest reflection.
I'm talking about people telling about their struggles: ways they've had to repent (not typically specifics, but their feelings going through it), the sorrow of family becoming estranged from the gospel and church, and then sharing how different men have come at it in different ways. Granted, there is still much to work on.
That sounds too much like Relief Society. I don’t want to share my feelings with other men, and I don’t want to hear about theirs. We should go back to teaching lessons and leave group therapy for the therapists.
Lot of hurt in some men’s lives drives them into solidarity (speaking from experience), anger, and resentment.
Christ accepts me how I am now and always invites me to a better place. Being able to be authentic with other men is scary, but man what a better life.
I think the church should bring back some type of athletics League or high adventure program including elders and young men. But personally I feel like the church should adopt a young men's and elders judo / jiu-jitsu program. It is a perfect metaphor for the battle of mortality while maintaining self-control and self-respect.
That’s an EXCELLENT idea!
The church is constantly taking the young men and the leaders on high adventure outings and the ward members are constantly asked to donate to their outings.
@@darcyharefeld211 You must live in a highly unusual ward. Haven't heard of this since scouting was discontinued.
@@bobrussell8339 I guess so. The youth, mostly the boys are pretty spoiled in my area. They are taken to many national parks areas to go on high adventure outings. The ward and stake are trying to raise money again for another one.
This is a very important conversation. Outside of an annual golf outing, which only has between 15-20 men, we’ve done nothing as an Elders Quorum in 4 years. As I am typing this, my wife is at her monthly relief society get together.
Elders Quorum is on life support.
Just one word to add: Courage - courage to face the lord and plead for forgiveness, courage to seek the truth and not just assume it, courage to stand up to the narcissists and self-righteousness and judgmentalism that creeps in, and courage to find our own purpose and identity with guidance directly from God. Be courageous, brothers!
Well said!
Love this!
Bravo, excellent discussion brethren. I hope we can wake up and have some zeal in life . Move forward with purpose and be who we were born to be. I m guilty of the nice guy syndrome I hope I can change. I feel like we can do good and be good by being real . I can see the Lord needs the real us. Not Mr nice guy. That being said we still make good choices.
Another quate that goes with this topics "Happy Wife happy life" this adds to the issue of men staying home and shinking.
I have seen in my own life and others where to keep the wife happy they don't do things or go "out with the boys " and it leading to the issues discussed and other mental health issues.
You are correct in that budgets are screwed toward the youth and then to Relief society. And elders a lot of time get the left overs which in my history was maybe 100 or 200 dollars a year.
Currently the ward i am in has a game night every few months for the Elders but I agree more can be done to encourage and promote these attributes in men and for some more masculine activities done. The next thing would need to get them to come.
I figured out pretty early that I didn’t want to have anything to do with marrying in the church so I deliberately and prayerfully dated outside the church. I ended up marrying a “Stealth Mormon”. He was inactive and we were engaged before I found out that he was a member. Our mothers knew each other from Relief Society. He has been active in the church and a masculine leader of our family since the moment he was outed. Our 26th anniversary is next month.
Gloom Flower, happy anniversary!!! What a beautiful love story! 😄 Thank you for sharing.
YES! do continue and if there are older "alive-ned" single men, we are available to chat with them
I converted to the LDS church when I was 20, in 1975. On my father’s side of the family, there is a long history of participating in one of many philanthropic groups, the Freemasons. This was a great source for many of our not-so-distant patriarchs to enjoy a brotherhood, along with other groups, such as the Rotary, Oddfellows, etc. Men’s needs haven’t changed. However, the demands of the world give little time for extracurricular activities, whether it involves the church or anything else.
Another thing I don't like is when church leaders and society at large joke about the wife always being right or being the "better half". Too many women, even in the church, are internalizing that messaging and always want to get their way. Usually I'm happy to let my wife get the things she wants but every once in a while I need her to listen to me when I need to speak up about something.
Amen brother! This idea of "happy wife, happy life," doesn't work if everything is deferred just to pacify one side of a marriage. Marriage is supposed to be a union of being equally yoked to pull together in the work of family. If happy wife, happy life is the rule, then pretty soon she's likely to feel entitled and he's likely to feel used. That's not a recipe for happiness or growth.
I agree I have heard this attitude expressed so often at church it make it difficult to hear it at church then from every corner of society.
Great stuff Greg! My fellow men. Please step it up!
We need stronger men in the Church that honor God and themselves as His strong sons! The values of confidence, honor, hard work, strength and not being so soft - are JUST as necessary to pursue - as Christlike attributes and virtues.
I love this episode!
Thanks for the feedback!
Yes, truly great Christlike attributes!
Great discussion Greg, the comments also reflect that this is a needed conversation and a relevant topic. The experiences we all have with Church organizations and programs (including EQ) will always vary due to demographics, culture, State and Country. I was the EQP in UT until not too long ago, I will share what worked for us and helped the men in our ward feel like they belong to a great brotherhood in the priesthood.
- I'll begin with the instructors: EQ (and RS) need to have the best teachers/instructors, teachers that not only know the doctrine well but also engage with the quorum - I asked the teachers to reach out to our quorum regularly, they would do so during the week before the class so everyone knows what the topic was, for relevant conference messages, questions to ponder, etc that way even if they were serving in primary/YM these great brothers were still included.
Visits: We would do weekly visits as presidency to two or three members of our quorum, to strengthen them, try to get to know them, their families, learn about them what hobbies/interests they have, and at the end share a brief message or thought like the good old mission days.
Service: We would try to generate service opportunities from the ministering interviews, from their insight about their families. The ministering brothers would sometimes organize it and we would spread the word to help with many different projects. - Up to this point it's nothing new, it's what we read from the handbook, but the application is based on your quorum needs, there isn't a one size fits all, EQP you hold the keys, use them to receive guidance about your quorum needs also, and what to do to help the quorum and their families.
Activities: Lastly, once we returned to somewhat normal schedule from the pandemic we created and organized a monthly EQ activity we called MENrichment, this was actually very successful, the idea behind was that everyone has something to share to continue fostering that brotherhood, skills or hobbies, knowledge/DIY projects/tips, profession, safety, self reliance, passion (cars/motorcycles), spiritual topics, etc - we would always have good refreshment at the end (so the budget discussion you both touched on is indeed very important)
Thanks, Greg!
Welcome!
I appreciate the comments. I have felt that for a longtime that the main issue with the development of our young men is that the prime example of how to be a man is absent. This I believe is multifactorial but the primary reason is the absentee father. Many of these fathers believe that they are doing their best managing all of the different hats that they wear but the priority of which hat they wear is often misguided. Husband, Father, Minister, EQP, Seminary teacher, Bishop ect. They are often gone magnifying their callings forgetting that their duty, priority, and focus should be #1 Husband, Father and then the other things in their life. While the men are at meetings or magnifying their callings, the Mothers are left to raise and model the behavior of these young men. The young men need Men to model the behavior and what it means to be a Man.
I was called to the EQ Presidency right when the HPQ and the EQ were combined, and when I was asked to share my testimony at the first Quorum meeting, I started by saying how excited I was that we just doubled our budget. The Stake President didn’t laugh. He made a comment like, “well, we’ll have to talk about that…”
Then we started an annual Shot Guns and Sushi event at the gun range. Best attended EQ event ever.
😂
Sign me up! Definitely going to have a shotgun sushi night in tucson!
It's about community. Community is Com (shared) unity, this IS what the ancient translation in both Aramaic and Hebrew means. Alaha and Eloah, which we usually here as Elohim. The IM makes the noun plural, as in Seraph(im) and Cherib(im). Elohim means unity, meaning more than one thing functioning as one.
We spend so much time attending to our loyalty and assent to truth propositions, that we have neglected often to LIVE the gospel by sharing life, baring burdens, and really creating connections (relationships) that are strong enough to transcend death.
@@peteraferguson88 not everyone likes sushi. So, we’ve done Shotguns and Salsa as well😂 great activity!!
I feel the only thing missing from this is the discussion of the scouting program
and the great impact it had upon us as men growing up. It was a sad day when we stepped away from our partnership from BSOA but I know It needed to be done as our common values distanced. I’m just surprised it hasn’t been replaced with something similar (maybe I’m out of the loop since I don’t work with the youth) but I just know the impact it had on me and my masculine journey. Great video, I shared it with lots of friends, including women, that can help push this call to masculinity again.
I thought it was going to be replaced with something similar. But nothing. With all the talents and skills we have in this church, surely we could have come up with something similar. Perhaps there are more aspects to the situation we don't know about. But it's left a big hole.
His analysis of Elder's Quoroum that ends about 4:30 is dead on. I was called to be the teacher for the quoroum about 2 months ago.
Also, I am now subscribed to the Leading Saints podcast, and I am hoping for a scholarship to the retreat. I am waking up to the idea of being a leader... something I have never cared to embrace. I have always been content to follow. But I can't always follow. At some point, I will have to take up a leadership role, even if it is only in my own family as I train up my children.
I see some of these problems y'all spoke about with men in my own ward. My work schedule makes it difficult to be active in my ward, but I can't blame it all on that. But I don't have any friends at Church. The most time I spend with any of the other men in the ward is when we have our ward campout. I need to take a more active role. I need to embrace my masculinity, and I need to train my own sons up properly. I'm lucky that I have always had very masculine jobs as a career. If it weren't for that, I might really have suffered.
Anyway, I have a new sense of wanting to be a leader, and a manly leader at that. I don't have to go full Ron Swanson, but I can definitely improve.
Thank you! I hope to see you in April in AZ.
@@KurtFrancom I'm planning on the one in Utah in November. Can't make it to the one in AZ. no reason given ;)
@@caguas97 Probably my favorite comment of the day. 😆😆😆
See you in November! Register ASAP because it will sell out.
Love your desire to acknowledge your weaknesses and take personal responsibility for your situation. This is what masculinity looks like to me!
@@TheArtOfNurturingHearts Oh, I have nothing BUT weaknesses to acknowledge. :)
Thanks for the kind remark :)
So true. Thanks for the discussion. I feel that Jesus is my hero; that kind of thinking would help. You are right on. A good strong man in the church and the family helps.
What should the church and EQ and Young Men’s group be teaching; how should the church be dealing with this extremely relevant issue.
Loved the whole discussion. I. Know we can do better.
Our Elders quorum is great. Great participation. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.
Love this positive comment! I wonder if everyone in your quorum would agree. It certainly is true that one sees what one desires to see.
@The Art Of Nurturing Hearts My brother-in-law has visited our ward a few times, and he is always impressed with the amount of participation and spirit he observes and feels in elders' quorum compared to his ward. Not that we're better, just more desire to strengthen each other in understanding the blessing and gift we all have in Jesus Christ and His gospel.
love the talk- thank you! for the 30 years of my adult life, i bristled to my core when i've been told that i wasn't nice enough or polished enough. immediately i'd think, "screw you and your judgement". i'm good at some stuff that you're not good at, and vice versa. i sat in a bishopric meeting once where someone said that they were worried that there wasn't a calling for brother so-and-so because he wasn't nice enough. i couldn't help but say, "well go tell Jesus that there's no place for that brother in His church". "The false traditions of our fathers".
One massive problem I've noticed in the church is that men and women with red personalities truly believe that everybody with non-red personalities is just going about life all wrong. People need to understand that every personality type has its strengths, and God did not place them by mistake.
Agreed. But that doesn't take away from the fact that righteous masculinity is seeping through the cracks.
@@CwicShow Correct. The way I see it; toxicity and masculinity are mutually exclusive. The moment a man exhibits toxic behavior, his behavior ceases to be masculine. "Toxic masculinity" is an oxymoron. And toxicity can manifest as being shiftless and unmotivated. Something in our culture is attacking productive men.
@@cognitiveresonance339 Without question.
Yeah my hubs is a blue. He is meek but man he is my strength and we all fall apart without him.
What’s even worse is that blue keeps accusing red of many things blue is guilty of doing most of the time.
Love this topic. Thanks for having this discussion.
My thoughts as I listened: Do we have what it takes to establish Zion? What greater purpose could we a men, priesthood holders have? To become a Zion individual, a Zion husband, a Zion father, a Zion builder within the community. The battle is within ourselves, to BECOME more than what the world teaches and what we've been conditioned. The adventure is to overcome the world and establish the kingdom of God on earth! That's the way I see it. That's what I'm fighting for anyway.
Agreed! But that is rarely how it is taught. With purpose, and mission.
100% this! The battle is within ourselves. We each get to determine the person we will become, regardless of outside circumstances. Who we are and how we feel are the consequences of our own choices.
Greg, come hang out in Williams with us!! Will be my 4th bootcamp. The last one I had my dad come. He is a more traditional Church member and was very apprehensive but we were able to connect and heal some of our combined wounds, I honestly didn’t think I’d have that opportunity before he died. It was such an awesome opportunity. Looking forward to getting my sons and son-in-law to a future event.
The only thing missing in this episode is the call to action. I waited for seven years for someone in my new stake to stand up and be “that guy” to make me feel wanted and important and that I belong. I realized I have to be that guy and so thankful to Kurt and others who have taught me how.
One day I’ll write a book on why LDS men struggle with these concepts so much. I think we are told from an early age we are the chosen and the elite, that we are expected to be strong. We get busy making a living and supporting a family and don’t take time out to be men and invest in ourselves and give until there isn’t anything left to give, failing to fill the tank up again.
I feel like a kid on Christmas Eve flying up to Boise to hang out with Kurt and my Boise Band of Brothers for the weekend today. We have an awesome AZ Band as well and I hope to build a strong Tucson Band soon - been working on it for over a year. Takes a lot of inviting and patience.
In my ward we just started Breakfast Burritos with Bros every second Saturday at my house for guys to come hang out and fill up their emotional tank while getting fed.
Kurt gave a Reader’s Digest of topics covered at Bootcamp on this episode. After each pretty intense 90 minute or so session we have an hour vow of silence to go out into nature and think and pray and write. It was the first time since my Order of the Arrow weekend that I spent that much time with God and getting to see who I am in His eyes and receive a lot of revelation on what I need to do differently in my marriage, family, church, work, and life. My wife has definitely seen a big difference and I’m a lot more at peace.
Going long here but this is such a life changing concept. God is crazy about me and crazy about you and is always inviting us forward. I was a church benchwarmer two years ago and now my heart is awake and alive and my marriage is much better and I’m a much better dad. Time to rise up men. Come join the tribe. (Google awarriorheart and sign up. Cheaper and a lot more fun and effective than a few months of therapy and you’ll finally find your people if you invest the time).
Thanks for this episode!
A battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to love makes all the difference.
Not sure if I can get there.
Excellent!!
Many thanks!