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Propaganda Games - Ethical Game Design - Extra Credits
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
- Lazy game design can unintentionally misinform players if the designers don't question their cultural assumptions as they create a game's mechanics. What questions is a game asking, and what questions is it NOT asking?
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(Original air date: October 12, 2011)
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HUGE props to James for realizing he just thought the game was fine because he agreed with the message. More people should second guess themselves like this.
I thought a propa ganda was a British person taking a good look at something
Why are the fish fighting eachother?
A british dude just crossed the river.
The f-
Person: (Sees kids with no direction in their lives).
Armies, cults and evil organizations: Recruits
I'd rather have a person with no direction than one going the wrong way on a highway...
Person: (Sees kids with no direction in their lives).
Armies, cults and evil organizations: *recroots*
It’s free real estate!!
I see you made the army that protects your country be a villain
Its free real estate
Watching in 2020 and hearing "Will soon be more common than watching tv"
I watch battery any TV but I play hours straight of X Box.
What is this "Tee Vee" you speak of?
(4:10) That reminds me of the CZcamsr who looked at world maps and statistics, and one of them was what country people of each country in general dislike. The person didn't had any issue with any country being disliked, except for when USA was disliked, and questioned the validity of the data.
Gee I wonder why they would hate USA...
Link?
Honestly i wouldn’t be surprised how hated America is lol
Team Fortress 2 must be nailing it, then. The nine mercenaries, all of different nationalities, all stereotypes making fun of and insulting each other so that no-one in particular is the real enemy.
yes
the bots are the enemy lol
@@MultiTrollface999 indeed
Team fortress are for professionals. its a great job mate!
I often say, "Is it really racism if it offends everyone?" TF2 is a good example
Day 9385. Still haven't found bias in Minecraft. Must be perfect.
***** oh look an opinion.
Aickavon the Techpriest THE MAIN CHRACTER IS A WHITE MALE SEXIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISTTTTT
Aickavon the Techpriest Aickavon the Techpriest White skeletons are capable of using advanced weaponry while the colored mobs are not!
ThatGuyWithHisHat LMAOOOOOO HOLY SHIT YOU GOT A (very poor) PINT
+Aickavon the Techpriest but thats 25 years... Do you know something about minecraft that i dont?
"... has this already happened in other places without me realising it?"
Me: O ___ O * sudden existential crisis *
That line kinda hit me like a truck
same O_O
"No one expects you to be perfect, but things do get a whole of a lot worse when we don't try"
That line is probably the best I heard in this channel so far.
Boy, this video aged well, eh?
@Space Ghost save them from their dumb space ghost!
I miss this channel, they made such great videos...
Yeah....
Outlast The Dark yeah I’m surprised this didn’t blow up back then
to be fair ,this video was made in 2012 when we all were so politcally naive
"Remember: No Russian."
Them Slav bad boys!
@@Terza15 I’m Slavic, but not the way you think.
Frick you mate let the slightly less stupid sink in.
haystack Owen Byrns was using English.
Ладно
Half of the 2019 comments: "Boy, has Extra Credits Changed."
The other Half: "Wow, this supports the July 3rd video a lot."
Me: *Greatly Amused.*
Looks like it's the exact same writer too. ...a writer who some commenters on the most current video seem to still miss.
This episode really pushes the point that July 3rd's 2019 video was attempting to make much more eloquently.
Japanese 'crustacean' research simulator
SSC for academical purposes ofc
Cetacean*
"Cephelapod" research
@@sethleoric2598 LOL you research octopuses
@@howardxing5885 k
"we're not saying games can desensitize us to violence"
boy, that aged well
This video did age well bud, the July 3rd video has no effect on the quality of this one lmfao.
Feather Soft Firebender whats the july 3rd video everyone is talking about? Im confused
aye'
this makes the same point as that video... that games have the power to change how we think
Thalia Storer except one is filled to the brim with bias and misguided emotion with next to no research
I tip my hat to Spec Ops: The Line in this case.
aye
There are few other games before spec ops, drakengard from 2003 which was total disaster but asked you important questions about main characters of rpg games,after all they kill dozens of people and are fine with that. in 2010 another his game nier gestalt, based on 9/11 translated into fantasy world without any conections to our, just simple 2 sides shouting that they are good guys so who is good anyway? there is really clever use of perspectives there.
Spec Ops on PS1 scared me off of that franchise. That was a hard ass game.
sikhs wear turbans, not muslims but i get what yall were saying
'Wearing turbans is common among Sikhs, including women, who refer to it as a Dastar. In certain other faith communities, the headgear also serves as a religious observance, including among Shia Muslims, who regard turban-wearing as Sunnah Mu'akkadah (confirmed tradition).'
So basically both do but Sikhs are more common
oh didnt know that. thanks!
apud harald noah fence but what are you talking about
The stereo type becomes positively dangerous when waaaaay too many people who don't have anything to do with Islam, radical, moderate, or otherwise, are harassed because of the stereotype
One of the many purposes of propaganda is to garnish the emotions of people. People who believe it will more be more than willing to fight with what the propaganda is aimed at with extreme prejudice.
Propaganda is not truthful in many areas, and for the most part it's misleading.
The length of this video is 9:11
CONSPIRACY.
DigitalZ 9:10 for me.
DigitalZ says 9:10 for me
Bill Zypher breno 1801 For some reason when youtube last updated, the length of this video dropped by one second.
DigitalZ it's evil magic
DigitalZ stil 9:11 for me.
I don't think it's fair to equate having an opinion or point of view and expressing them in art with propaganda. Being able to consume art made from many different points of view expressing many different opinions is fundamental in being able to better understand other people. As well as to better understand you own thoughts and feelings. But when you expressing you views in any form of art I think it's important to understand that: no matter how correct you truly believe you are, it's okay for your audience too disagree.
Dude this is extra credits, nuance is illegal here
EC in 2012 : Actual intellect
EC in 2019 : Welp i guess i lost my brain somewhere
Or maybe you are just an idiot.
@@shadowmaydawn Oh no, you crushed Blank Blank with your galaxy brain intellect and eloquence. How could someone ever recover from that kind of rebuttal. 😒
@@d1oftwins Blank Brain didn't provide any real rebuttal either.
@@shadowmaydawn Blank was giving the opinion that EC lost its ways of making a neutral argument. You on the other hand are the only one that didn't contribute anything. All you said is "I don't like your opinion" in an blatantly insulting way. Well, cool story bro, I guess?
This is essentially the same argument tho. Guess you didn't watch past 5:42.
7:36 Some games have "costumes" you can put on that hide your actual armor without reducing its effectiveness. Not saying it excuses the "showing of skin", but it's an option nontheless.
Perhaps an even better option is to have multiple outfits of varying levels of dress or lack thereof and let the player customize their gear with enchantments.
"Don't google this game"
Now EC, which one of those words do you think I'm gonna ignore...?
Nathanchooper I know! I know! The word "this". I nearly didn't hear it myself.
Nathanchooper probably "google". Bing is the only search engine that is actually useful.
Darth Kaas Yep. Bing is love. Bing is life.
"Game"It's actually an interactive experience, you racist.
Darth Kaas This message has been brought to you by Microsoft.
On one of my first playthroughs of Skyrim I joined the Stormcloaks thinking "hey, they didn't try to behead me ". Up until I had to assist in the battle of Whiterun; then I could only look around and think "Is this the effect of a war on a city? ". I actually put the game down for a few hours after that, just to think.
+Vicente Parker This is why I don't join either side, lol.
+Vicente Parker If you read up on the lore of the game, you learn that the war is ultimately pointless. The big problem is the Thalmer, and their desire to de-construct Nirn to become immortal.
They're like Alduin in that respect. Except After Alduin finishes, the world is reborn.
With the Thalmer? Not so much ;p
Mystery Yoghurt Yeah, that's the other big reason why I am all for the Empire now. That, the problems of war, and the fact that it is the goddamn Roman empire with MAGIC.
+Vicente Parker TBH since I played Oblivion before Skyrim even if the Imperials and the Empire tried to behead me I have always thought that the Stormcloaks were like Rebels or trying to take down the Empire
And after playing Skyrim alot I still do think the Stormcloaks are still just people rebelling against the Empire, I have seen they do have a good point that they don't like the Imperial led Empire rule their country of Nords but it is for the better of Tamriel if they were united
+Aerunn Allado And also, the Stormcloaks are a bunch of racists, with Ulfric at the head spewing hate-speech about anyone who isn't a Nord. That's why I never joined him
This video should be required reading for july 3rd’s video
huhuhu.
Well, its more eloquent, but that only serves to make July 3rd's video look worse.
Hard to say for sure now, but I'll just assume this video had 1.1M views, 23k likes and 2.2k dislikes a few days ago.
HAHAHAHAHA it's great how completely self-unaware they are.
What’s the July 3rd video
When he cussed I literally said WOW because of the fact that he NEVER does that. Ya, this game fucked up real bad.
Lytbulb when does he curse?
Lytbulb hmm
I think he meant the Call of Juarez episode.
He swears *sometimes*
Lytbulb He did NOT curse
*cetacean* research simulator.
Not *CRUSTacean* One of these is a mollusc. The other is a mammal. There is a difference.
It took me a second to find a connection between Crabs and Whales. The only thing I could figure was that there was some Lobster hunting simulation they never highlighted. I see how the error was made, but it's hilarious to think that no one it that, and now it's on the internet forever and they'll never get a chance to redo it.
(Also, Crustaceans are a sub-phylum of Arthropods. If you want to be super pedantic - they're "Malacostracans." That would be taxonomical equivalent to "Mammal.")
Neither of them are Molluscs.
You are quite right. I meant to say arthropod.
That bothered me too, haha.
Imagine if this was released within the last 3 years
7:25 Guess I'll leave my stomach exposed. No one will EVER stab me though the stomach. -Every RPG Woman Character Ever
You know what would be really funny? If some MMO out there took the "females are scantily clad, males look like badasses" trope and flipped it on it's head such that the males looked like strippers and the females... well, you couldn't tell that they were females under their 7 meter thick armor.
I just think that'd be hilarious.
UnknownSpartan007 this has probably happened somewhere. And while I'm not certain if call it a trope it would be funny
I don't know maybe guys are just more open to stimulates, a borner isn't something you can turn on and off you know
UnknownSpartan007 This MMO'S already exists. Many of this games features men showing their abs and muscles. Difference is: Men don't give a fuck about it.
Brunno Henrique Kamei Carneiro Yeah I main rock in Soul Calibur and he is almost naked. I have no issue with him.
Actually sexualization isn't just about how much skin is shown. I mean, look at berserkers or Kratos. The image of a half naked tuff guy wrecking shit around doesn't aim to look sexy, but rather showing off the ripped badass he is, "do u even lift bru".
Now, if you do stuff like putting that guy on a tight tiny slip, make the skin look like it's always all oiled up, reduce muscular volume to a point where it's not that frightening but rather easily appealing, making the camera take certain angles, or making the crotch bulge and bounce at nothing, that could be an equivalent of the old cute girl with a bikini armor and jello tits.
Yes it would look funny, but because of how ridiculous it looks, since we are not used to see male characters sexualized.
I don't think killing Islamic terrorists really encourages the player to hate Muslims. The reason anti-Islam sentiment has been on the rise can be traced to other factors.
I don't think it actively encourages it, no, but I think it has made it seem commonplace, even if that's not a good thing.
Structured Religion and Mass Media
It starts in reality and is reinforced and applauded with games, among other media.
The Muslim sentiment is because their rather-common-in-comparison-to-other-people-groups (did I really have to write this? Wouldn't typing rather common be enough?) use of terrorism. Terrorism of course comes from the word terror, which means fear.
And as a wise man once said: "Fear leads to anger, [and] anger leads to hate."
It’s not saying that video games are the cause of islamophobia. It’s saying the games where you kill Muslims are a symptom of islamophobia
I've always liked the not quite so subtle way Dishonoured and Deus Ex:MD/HR gave you the option to play their game and not to kill anyone.
After seeing this video I have learned but one thing.
That "suck on it sideways" is the greatest insult of all time and I shall use it daily.
I just watched this after the EC video on female characters, and I thought of a combination:
He mentions in the other video that a maternal theme could be powerful. Like a mother protecting her children from the scourge of war. If we note that a lot of AAA level FPS games commonly take place in the Middle East, what would happen if a game was developed using both?
Could you imagine? A Middle Eastern mother, fighting and fleeing for the survival of her children. If the mechanics were smooth and the story impactful, that'd be a game I'd pay top dollar to play.
Amazing what 7 years can do to someone.
They're making the same general point in this video as the July 3rd video lol, so I don't see what 7 years has actually done.
*sweats nervously*
"P-please don't look this up guys."
*hm?*
For some reason, this is making me think of a lot of those games with so called "morality" systems, where the ending are generally either "You are a saint!" or "You are an absolute monster!" with no in-between...
How do you compare this video to your 'Stop Normalizing Nazis...' ?!?!?! These videos points and logic are completely different!
They mean the end part about "lazy design" and "accidental indoctrination". That's basically the same thing they said in the other video. So I don't see why people keep saying that the nazi video is "backsliding".
There are also games that are used to promote safety. It's not propaganda in the traditional sense, but it is in its own way since it is a piece of media that seeks to get across a certain emotion, idea, or principle.
For example, "The Drowning Game" was created to teach people to wear life jackets when in open water. It simulates the sensation and hopeless feeling of drowning. These games aren't necessarily dishonest but seek to make the player feel something.
+Sameinaður Norðurlöndin The drowning simulator fucked me up. I have great headphones and an intense fear/fascination of the ocean. I realized I'd been holding my breath for a while when I was finished with it.
That's exactly what propaganda is in a traditional sense... you encounter way more propaganda than you like to think. The "please wash your hands" sign is propaganda. Election campaign ads are propaganda. "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" is propaganda.
But now you have been taken in by an even greater propaganda... the message that the word "propaganda" is only fitting for the evil villain. That "those other guys" in facist states or with ominous agendas use propaganda and your honest and open government would never do such a bad thing... also, buy war bonds and support our troops and loose lips sink ships and the Red Menace is in your neighborhood.
It's gotten to the point that we don't even recognize that something is intending to influence our mode of thought unless it's titled "Crazy communist propaganda"... because there's no such thing as capitalist propaganda right? Remember to text your vote for your favourite American Idol contestant... some charges may apply.
+Seeker Goldstone this comment was propaganda lmao
jimin's tiny hands exactly
Sameinaður Norðurlöndin i
What has happened to your channel
Simple, not his channel anymore
An absolutely amazing level of improvement
Yep, the Floyd's gone years ago
Imagine a CoD duty game where there are always civilians running around, or I guess in most cases hiding behind some cover, and you lose points for killing them. Not only would it be much more of "shoot the guys with the guns" but it would also really affect the pace of the game. Just a thought.
Or worse: you don't lose points for killing them. BUT they cry, and yell for help and all that jazz. Way darker and kinda more realistic.
They’re aren’t any civilians, just unarmed potential enemy combatants
@@stormshadow2944 you are right.....
*Reloads LMG at airport*
You do know MW2019 is a thing, right?
@@stormshadow2944 But still shooting unarmed combatants is a warcrime, and the game should reward you simply arresting them.
There's a reason I tend to go for Sci Fi games. And it's not just that they often establish a far more removed subject matter, so that we no longer are looking at a conflict which brings us closer to real life.
It's because, since their using a subject matter none of us really have a good look at, or understand yet, they have to EXPLAIN who the bad guys and who the good guys are.
Take Halo, for example. Sure, headshotting the poor grunts is amusing, but it's also something of a sad task, sometimes, because it's been explained to us through the lore that they're really just, well, grunts.
EC: those game dont deserve new traffic
Me, with my short memory who forgets this games in 5 minutes: nice
Aren't...aren't turbans a Sikh thing? (I mean, anyone can wear a turban, but devout Sikhs don't cut their hair, and so - at least, I think - some wrap it up to keep it out of the way.)
Cool, good to know. My point was that he was criticizing ignorance while being semi-ignorant (or at least generalizing) himself.
It's hard to level criticism at 'shoot all the brown people' games when he still makes the same mistakes or generalizations they do, albeit much less offensively.
CallMeCactusSok I think they did that on purpose. Sort of to illustrate the ignorance and generalizations that people make of other people (like how all Native Americans are the same). EC has done that a few times to see whether the viewers were paying attention.
+CallMeCactusSok Weird thing is out of all the shooter games I've played, only two of them involve shooting middle easterners. Call of Duty 4 and Battlefield 3. Both of which don't even have you shooting them all the time and neither have a middle eastern person as the main villain.
Dotatchin K That is call of duty 4. That is one of the only games I have where there are middle eastern enemies and even in that game the main villain isn't even middle eastern.
+CallMeCactusSok As a turban-wearing and bearded Sikh (as well as a devout gamer) yes, turbans are a religiously-mandated in Sikh theology along with the growing of the hair. Some Sikhs don't wear turbans and therefore cut their hair and beards (mostly Sikhs living outside of India, especially the United States and Canada), but I personally don't see them any less a Sikh. But the point I'm sure EC is making is that the media, like cinema and video games, have reinforced the stigma of the turban-wearing and bearded brown guy as a radical Arab-Islamist even though a lot of Muslims and Arabs don't wear turbans at all and if they do, it's more out of geographical culture than religious mandates.
The fact that Spec Ops: the line is considered by many to be revolutionary for asking the moral questions of the why of first person shooters shows just how willing we are to not question the morality. It took this long for someone to make an actual full game that points out how absurd this stuff is?
I’ve heard that game get a lot of knocks for its failure to give the player character agency. During moments like the infamous White Phosphorus scene, there clearly should be (out-of-universe) a way for your main character to avoid whatever’s going to happen, but the game spawns endless troops or otherwise refuses to advance events until you do what the game wants, and then your character gets yelled at for doing something that they were not given a choice to avoid and were railroaded into doing despite there being no reason whatsoever why they couldn’t except that the game refused to advance the story in that direction. I recall reading somewhere that when the creator was asked how to avoid these tragedies, his answer? Walk away. Stop playing the game. ARE YOU FNAGGING ME?!! The whole point of a game is to be played the whole point of interactivity is to give you the power to affect how things go! I want for *my character* to be able to walk away, to be able to use his agency and conscience to change the story. Railroading us in this out-of-universe manner without the slightest bit of in-story justification completely misses the point of giving us an interactive story!
@@KnakuanaRka Idk, i disagree that walking away was the wrong way for us to answer but i can see your argument.
This is a complete contradiction to your "politics in games" video, you might want to rethink that one. Unless your message was really "you can't keep MY politics out of games, but let's ban others"
Bro... Are you good mentally?
6:34 This pie chart is amazingly accurate.
"Crustacean" refers to shellfish. I think you meant "cetacean".
extra credits 2012: "im not saying games can desensitize us to violence"
extra credits 2019: "PLAYING AS A NAZI CHARACTER MEANS YOU MIGHT BECOME A NAZI"
If that's what you took away from this, I'm guessing the problem isn't with Extra Credits.
@@BumMcFluff yep the problem isn't with EC. It's the subscribers who are bigoted amirite?
@@purplewine7362 Words right out of my mouth.
Robin Brennan I mean if you agree with their 90s argument that violent video games normalizes violence then I’m guessing the problem isn’t with EC then.
Still acting like EC claimed something they never once did, huh? God you people are repetitive.
LOTR video games are propaganda that tells us that killing orcs is ok :)
+MisterTutor2010 Game of the year 2016: OOG - Orcs Occupied Government!
Orc lives matter.
Y'know, if you think about it LotR is actually kinda racist. "Men of the West, ride against the East" and all that.
+Rangaman I think the books may have been designed to be racist, because if you read Akkalabëth, the men of the west are "settling" the "unsettled" lands in the east and destroying native populations.
Hello World Views of that time, I guess.
Zog means "he pooped" in my dialect.
Which is true,since this game is shit.
King *Zog*
Yea he exists
I get your point, but I think something we must always remember is that no product is free of background. As you pointed out in the end, what you call "lazy design" usually is just the perpetuation of certain cultural aspects that somehow are naturalized. I'm sure that the designers haven't thought that much on how they would portray women or muslin, but we must always ask: why did they go for such portrays so naturally? Again, I get your point, but just remember: not only propaganda games perpetuate ideologies or mindsets. All media products do that.
For instance, lets take the Disney Movie Aladdin. Isn't it odd that all the heroes and characters we are supposed to root for and relate have american accent and look somewhat more "white", while the villain looks like a stereotypical portray of Arabic man? And how the bystanders on the rest of the city also tend to looking and even sounding more stereotypical? Sure, its an old movie, but I think you get my point: Aladdin main focus isnt the perpetuation of anti muslin propaganda, yet a movie so well thought ended up perpetuating those ideas.
I am I Muslim. I am black. I am I girl. I wear what I want. I do what I want. I would never ever hurt anyone Muslim or not. There are hundreds millions like me. But the few monsters who have hijacked my religion are louder than me. I have read the Quran twice. I hope someday everyone will be able to tell me apart from the monsters who use my religion as an excuse to be cruel
Emmanuel, that's why Europe is getting so many immigrants from those areas, together with people from areas where there's outright war. The people who endorse terrorism and strive to diminish human rights ARE a minority in Islam, but Islam is a freaking huge religion which is why even the minority looks enormous - especially when that violent minority is overrepresented among the people with power and guns which makes them much louder and more noticeable than normal people.
USA funded the creation of Al Queda and recreated ISIS to mess with your religion and culture, its clearly not your fault but your culture looks uncivilised to Europian people therefore making propaganda easier
Do something that proves them wrong and BOOM things will turn against them easily
isis is the most devoted muslim of all, who follow wholeheartedly Quran. If you are muslim, it is natural that you secretly admire them, I know. Cut off your bullshit plz.
Hope you'll find lots of people who will look at the content of your character instead of the cardboard cutout version of your religion pop culture displays.
War posters used to say things like the gentleman's club and depicted a scene like playing polo whilst camping. This was an actual recruitment process by many countries .
July 3rd 2019 and Extra Credits made a COLOSSALLY idiotic political video compared to something like this one.
OnimaxBlade how the mighty have fallen
You don’t think we should give people the option to opt out of playing as Nazis or terrorists? Seems like a good idea
Yeah it's stupid because they said that games will turn you into a Nazi, except that isn't what they were saying at all.
@@shadowmaydawn no, they said that by playing a nazi in a video game, we will be desensitized to nazi imagery and ideas. which is quite simply, untrue and unfounded.
Please, PLEASE for the love of god do an episode on PETA's bullshit.
Zog's horror's cover looks like an ironic meme.
Say what you want about America's Army's propaganda, but it was actually a pretty fun game. I used to love playing the co-op mode since the mechanics felt so realistic. There was no rambo, pay2win bullshit; just you and your team of fellow players.
+unifieddynasty I was a broke highschooler. I played it and enjoyed it. I joined the Army. I got blowed up. Don't regret a fuckin thing.
I didn't join because of the game, I joined because being a young adult in America is fucking soul draining. Was it propaganda? Yeah. Did it influence my decision? Nah. If the soldiers depicted were soulless, racist, humpnuggets, maybe. But they weren't.
I'm agreeing with you btw.
+Daniel Smith Most people I know join b/c, well, they can't get a job anywhere else. Don't mean to minimize the fact that other people join for other reasons.
+Bronwyn Beistle i joined because i wanted to help take iraqs oil, now were riding under 2$ a gallon
^This guy gets it
Barry Slurpentine Arma 2 and Day Z. Great stuff.
After viewing the video and skimming the comments, I think the best answer is that there is no right answer. Any argument about the validity of a pov or idea is at best questionable because of human tendency to agree with what we favor albeit for the wrong reasons. You could turn any controversial topic into a mad lib of proper nouns and no matter what you fill in the blanks there will people for or against it. There is a trope that goes: "your terrorists are our freedom fighters"--an argument of perspectives. To really understand an issue and resolve it requires an unbiased, objective mindset; something which I think is hard to come by, but like I said there is no right answer.
CoughPokemonBlackandBlueCough
+RazerBlaze *cough* Any game PETA has ever made *cough*
+Hina Face *cough* anything PETA has ever made *cough*
*cough* & also halo 5's marketing *cough*
+RazerBlaze Most recent Bioware games and Gone Home.
Well PETA's game was intended as counter-propaganda against Pokémon's propaganda, which is "It's okay to own animals and let them fight each other". You can't just call the opinion you dislike propaganda.
共産ロリ considering the villains in pokemon are often the animal abusers and playing with your pokemon is encouraged i really dont see how you think it’s pro animal mistreatment.
This is why we absolutely need games and other media that make us question the position we take up. It makes us think for half a second that "wait, I wasn't doing the complete right thing?!?!"
3:38 THIS is the purpose of Spec Ops: The Line...
"Think about how many shooters today use muslims as the default enemy"
I really can't think of any, even in 2018. Most FPS games either go for Russians or Germans/Nazis.
The CS games put the T's (which are often not muslim) and the CT's on equal footing. Same thing with Battlefield 2, Insurgency, etc.
Much better than the new video
I went back and watched this video, just to remind myself that EC used to make well-reasoned, intelligent videos. Please return the competent leadership to the group, and return to that era.
As opposed to what unintelligent and unreasonable videos?
Proxy 46 they made one bad video and now they’re the worst CZcams channel ever apparently
Peta's Pokemon game came to mind immediately
This comments section is horrid. People are actually defending these games, and with terrible arguments. I've yet to find a comment that shows the person knows what media propaganda and subtlety can actually DO.
I mean, the Nazis where created from Hitler's propaganda. Studies have been done on people to show the sheer power of suggestion (go Google the Blue/Brown eyes experiment), and yet these comments are DEFENDING these games.
+Grapz224 its sickening
Fernie Canto
The only logical reason you would defend terrorism or attack negative comments/depictions toward terrorism is if you were a terrorist yourself. Anyone who is not a terrorist themselves would have no reason to defend it, nor attack such comments or depictions.
And how are the hard facts being manipulated? Are you honestly trying to say that the mass murders, the unjustified attacks, the beheadings, and the outright acts of war committed by these organizations are all just nonsense that was made up so it makes a buzzword to make people "dirty, evil, mean anti-Muslim oppressionists"? Or are you trying to say that somehow these terrorists are actually justified in their actions, and are just being wrongfully portrayed as evil? Please tell me which brand of idiot you are.
Fernie Canto
There are many cases in which both sides are right and wrong. This is not one of them. You've done nothing except say "I'm right, you're wrong!", claiming everything is just built up buzzwords and false claims, while simultaneously offering no evidence whatsoever to back it up.
The US got involved in the middle east under the guise of fighting terrorism when in fact they were just in it for political gain and profit from the conflict. That doesn't mean that terrorism is false, or that it simply doesn't exist, it just means that a government took a very bad situation and took advantage of it rather than trying to actually do what they claimed they were doing. Terrrorists are, for a fact, an enemy, and the depiction of them as such is not wrong just because certain governments would rather take advantage of it. - Just because your alcoholic father comes along and fans the flames and cooks marshmallows on your burning house does not mean that the flames are not in fact burning your house down, or that fire shouldn't be treated as a dangerous threat.
Actually, it's not hard to see where Terrorism comes from. In fact, terrorist organizations like Al'Qaeda and ISIS act on the more extreme teachings of the Quran, in which "infidels" (aka: those who are not Muslim or Muslims who do not take part in all the teachings of Allah) are to be slain. They murder because they are taught that it is right to do so. They have literally no justification for their actions other than being a bunch of religious nutcases that would kill for their almighty god. Don't believe me? Fine. Go look it up. Think that's all just media propaganda out there? Alright, go read the very book Al'Qaeda and ISIS use as their reference for why they must kill.
It's funny, because I see comments likening the depiction of terrorism as an enemy to Hitler's propaganda to the Nazis against the Jews, yet it's in fact Islamic terrorism that is most like the Nazis.
Basically, they're a cult, and jihad is their blood sacrifice. If you think that deserves to be defended, protected, or sympathized with in any way, you're either one of them, or you're a delusional psychopath (which can easily summarize liberals anyway). Unless you can provide a logical and intelligent reason for why you think terrorists should be portrayed as anything but enemies, I will go the lighter route and just assume you're crazy.
+Valsako Iliska it's not so much a question of "is terrorism bad?" as it is a question of "who and what is a terrorist?"
the answer is shaped by ideology. there's sort of a common consensus that it's terrorism to blow up a car in a major western city. it's NOT widely regarded as terrorism when US soldiers rape civilians in occupied countries. it's NOT widely regarded as terrorism to build torture camps where people are put with no trial, yet here we are with guantanamo bay and CIAs extraordinary renditions.
several US presidents (and this is not just a US thing, similar examples exist for most western countries in some way, shape or form) are actually provably guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. but it's not regarded as terrorism. there's even a large portion of people who believe it is the right thing to do.
the terrorist has become a surface upon which we project all of our fears. we paint it as a dangerous religious extremist who hates us for no discernable reason, and so we use this icon as fuel for a sort of divine righteousness that justifies killing thousands of civillians, destroying the infrastructure in whole countries, putting innocents through vile forms of torture, and so on.
our whole notion of what a terrorist is so one-dimensional that it is 100 % useless as a tool for understanding global politics and what drives political actors in the world. you say "terrorists are enemies and it's good to kill enemies, are you an enemy?"
this is not a productive or constructive way of solving conflicts.
Fernie Canto why, thank you, it's nice to get the appreciation! I saw some pretty neat comments by you too! :)
Most American FPS in the last few years could be considered propaganda games. They involve US soldiers fighting our current enemies abroad and being a conquering hero, without the truth behind the warfare. They skirt around the issue that you most likely won't come home, and the people you're fighting have homes and families just like you. They're human and just as scared as you most likely are, not James Bond villains trying to destroy America. These games are selling the military as heroes, glossing over the inevitable PTSD, possible injury, and almost guaranteed broken home life when you leave the field. War isn't fun, a lesson games like Call of Duty sorely miss and try to delete from your mind. While not technically propaganda, I can definitely see impressionable youths getting the wrong idea about warfare from it.
You guys at extra credit really deserves extra credit!! You manage to intertwine gaming, critical thinking, perspective and relativity in a fun and engaging way. And that's really saying something from someone who usually can't stand squeaky voices! :)
If only they can see themselves now
Yeah they would be pretty happy with themselves.
One thing about Japan's whale killing: only a EXTREMELY small part of Japan eat whale. Those who eat whale consists of a small island/town or two. Most Japanese people do not eat whale, nor do they ever plan to, and those who eat it many time are forced to by the school system as mass distributed lunch. Animal activists over dramatize whale hunting saying that ALL of Japan kills and eats whales, and I don't think that you can just generalize an entire country.
CaitSeith
Well Whales were valuable because they were a resource bonanza. The fat and oil, the meat, and the bones were all useful WHale bone once had a value not unlike Ivory.
and yes the environmentalists do over blow the whole issue. as they often tend to do. I have never eaten whale meat but I would not be adverse to trying it. Honestly why should I conceptualize a whale any differently than a pig, a deer, a horse or a cow, or a head of cabbage. These are all living things that I have killed in order to consume
CaitSeith
All the more reason to hunt them... you see.. by being edible and useful in a number of ways is the very reason that chickens, goats, pigs, cows, and turkeys are not going to go extinctany time soon? Once we developed a dependency on them we naturally figured out ways to breed and cultivate them.
The best way to save a species is find as many uses for it as possible. As is.'because their beautiful and majestic' doesn't quite work.
BigTuk Yeah... Whale farms don't work for several reasons.
It's like how female pandas are only fertile for three times a year. If she has two children, she goes "Nope, I only want one" and leaves the other to die.
I believe the whale also has some reproduction issues. Not the same as the panda, but they have issues.
Peanut Buttercus
And much like pandas then... if whales cannot adapt to the world they live in.. well... they will be replaced eventually by something more suitable. Yeah I know it sounds cold but yeah, harsh reality. Been happening every since life started on this planet
BigTuk Yeah, I know. But we're trying to stop them from dying out because they're dying from human interference. If they were to die out slowly, giving the ecosystem time to adjust, it'll be fine, but we're killing them too abruptly.
Oh, they're majestic too. At least that's the reason most people give.
Minecraft is pretty neutral, besides for the fact that killing animals, environmental destruction, and industrialized agriculture is acceptable and necessary in order to achieve success.
+Hacked By ExESec Octavian and $w00re None of the things you just pointed out are "necessary in order to achieve success". Industrialized agriculture? Seriously? It's not even industrial! You plant a seed, wait, and harvest the crops for personal use only. Besides, Minecraft is an open sandbox. You can do whatever you want inside the limitations! Kill animals if you want to, you don't have to do it... Edit: There are no win/success conditions in Minecraft. DEAL WITH IT.
I know.
Unless you're the stereotypical American, it really isn't *that* necessary.
Let me introduce you the second highest rated game on Steam: Factorio.
Destroy the enviroment by cutting trees, mining ores, smelting, pumping oil and crafting to win the game.
Kill the native aliens those don't like your pollution and destroy thier homes.
10/10 would play again. :D
Industrial style agriculture is the only way we could have the luxuries we have today.
In the end you can never fully de-politicize any kind of media, including games. Creators necessarily bring in their cultural background and personal biases. We need to stop assuming we're immune to our own biases and instead be explicit about who our intended audience is and what our views are.
You can depoliticize games, you can depoliticize any media, but it's extremely difficult and bound up with what you do and don't accept as true a-priori.
6:06 those aren't even Muslims they're Sikhs but that shows that most people don't know the difference and the discriminate anyways
The only modern war game that I liked was Spec Ops The Line
You must be super edgy and intelligent.
Wat?
PonzooonTheGreat Most people don't want to think when they shoot so when you said Spec Ops The Line as a good game Richard Dangles has a need to put you down. This Dangles kid is really about the new Medal of Honor games (not allied assault or the good ones) that take places in the middle east and Spec Ops makes fun of those games so you can see why he is upset.
joshsny143 So you are saying Medal of Honor was good when you still shot germans? Just kidding he just gave a funny comment and nothing else, I do not think he wants to put him down.
joshsny143 It is just the Bullshit about being anti muslim if you kill a Terrorist in MW2, you just want to have fun and if it borrows from modern military conflict then blame america for not invading europe and killing germans again.
Totally off topic for the severity of this subject, but man I appreciate you guys and your ending credits music selection. Y'all have introduced me to so many awesome new artists and mixes I'd never have found on my own.
Think about how many games have the villains residing in "soulless, industrial Mordor" settings. There is a trend of "green = good" running through games. _Sonic_ is kinda blatant about this.
well green is good... so I don't see where you are going with this.
the color green isn't a racial group that will get offended. Green is usually associated with vegetation and life.
so is mine but fuck you!
That's actually true.
there are, however, games like Minecraft and Anno (2070) which make both sides look "grey" -neither good nor bad-.
Indeed...
7:37 This reminds me of the high cut armor of Persona 3. You receive this armor very early in the game, it is gender bound, and a whole lot better than any other armor you can get in that state of the game. And, oh boy, is it sexualized to ridicilous lengths. However, due to it being a really ridiculous change (especially since pretty much every other armor of the game, does not change the character model), I think, it actually makes you sensitive. When you give this piece of armor to your female team mates, they will make you feel bad for showing it to them. This way, you could still argue, whether this is simply trying to excuse sexualization, but it at least does not normalize it in any way.
What's interesting is AA has a big following in central and Eastern Europe. I used to play it allot when I was enlisted in the US army. Since the first AA released after I enlisted. But most of the people I played with were polish or German.
6:05 those are Sikhs, not Muslims.
Their point was that the games incentivised you to “kill anyone with a turban on their head”, I think that’s the point of why they put Sikhs in there, to show how ridiculous this would be in practice.
This did not age well.
Image if they saw the games of today
Daniel, please, PLEASE continue your work. The topics you cover and explore are extremely important to the thing we all love. I love your work, and I spread it as often as possible, to broaden the minds of the less intelligent and less open minded. You are a superstar.
Great video. I'm fresh out of high school, and I feel that Battlefield and Call of Duty are propaganda. I know a lot of people who have joined the military recently. Oddly enough, almost all of them are hardcore Battlefield 3 or Call of Duty fans. It scares me, they're great people, but not strong willed or fit enough for the military. I hate to say negative things behind their backs, but they don't get out much. They don't even exercise or educate themselves on current events! They could have very well signed away their lives over a video game...
My how the mighty have fallen.
around 5:53 and games like those are usually depicted in modern times and that group contains people who people are at war with in modern times so it'll be more relatable to the modern person playing it
holy crap how did i stumble upon something from 8 years ago?! ah well greetings from 2020
Propoganda is any information which do not considers other point of view and thus, many games are propoganda games without us even realising it. It's a content of a game which disturbs us, not a fact that game can be defined as propoganda game. Even though, that word long lost its meaning and today it's more used as a scarecrow than anything else.
The moral questions of holding a gun? It's a tool, like any other. That's like asking about the moral implications of holding a baseball bat.
This is bait, but I'll bite. If that's true, why aren't baseball bats the main weapon of every modern army?
Ι'd like to make a point against that thing you said about females in RPGs. 90% of the time in an RPG I'll pick a female character over male. Why I'm doing it is irrelevant here (honestly even I don't know 100% why) and I find it aesthetically pleasing and rewarding when their armor gets more and more revealing with each level up. Does that mean I objectify women in real-life? Hell no. I'll go as far to say that I sympathise with some feminist arguments. A lot of people will call a game I play sexist but when I tell them that I value personality way more than body in real life they call me pretentious and will proceed to make comments like "you can't deny a fine ass" or "fucking a flat chested girl would feel gay."
I actually find that the armour covers more of your character as you level up, I must not be playing the same games as everyone else because I started off with an armored bikini but once I got into my stride my character got a combat dress and blast-dampening cloak which looked awesome and had superior stats over the starting outfit (the armored bikini).
It's fine to play a game with de-humanizing mechanics such as nudifying women for intended male heterosexuality, if you at the same time are thinking what you seem to be thinking: "Is this okay? Do I believe women should be like this in real life? What do I actually value in a woman?" And in moderation, nude female characters aren't going to harm a thing. The reason it's a big discussion right now is because it's not really in moderation in the industry as a whole. It's more like a trend. And that does become a problem. I recommend the great--if controversial--videos by Feminist Frequency if you're interested in learning more on the subject. And from a personal point of view: the people who are bad-mouthing you for valuing women are probably scared of something. Possibly it's a reaction to the fact that human rights pertaining to marriage are also a big issue right now. Forgive those with small thoughts, but don't listen to them.
IntimidatingScones
The only thing you'll learn from Anita is how to be a liar and make a complete fool of yourself on the internet. A large number of people have proven her theories wrong and point out the massive flaws in her argument.
The video she makes just support and reinforce her ideology rather than presenting the facts of the matter in a neutral and unbiased way. Anita knows this and that's why she disables the comments on her videos because she knows that the methodology behind her research can not stand up to scrutiny.
Thunderf00t and Mr Repzion did videos on the same subject and showed the whole story while tearing Anita's argument apart at the same time. Also, Game theorists has touched base on the topic too which was interesting and Extra Credits have done other videos that cover this topic in more depth.
I'm not attacking you personally, I just dislike Anita because she gives women a bad name and doesn't deserve any traffic until she's ready to grow up and tackle the topics she talks about like an adult rather than a over grown child.
I'm not sure whether Persona does this right or wrong. Yes, there are "sexy" armour like the Battle Panties, or the swimsuits, but the game tries to deter you away from these by making them weak and obscenely expensive. In reality, the best female armour in that game that has a costume change is the Maid Outfit, and while it can be seen as fetish-fuel, it is a dress that is not revealing at all.
So basicly the sexist jerks are calling YOU one. Ouch. I'll add that to the "Don't be THAT GUY" list as "don't be THAT GUY who invents faults in others that he denies about himself".
7:25 the reason I always play as a guy in any and every game even though I'm a girl
that pic towards the end was from in the mouth of madness which is a really underrated 90s movie.
I love your guys' series but the "how many games have Muslims as the enemy" kinda threw me off cause honestly, I can't pinpoint any. MW1 you fight in an unnamed Arab country but their religion is never named or even referenced. Medal Of Honor reboot you fought the Taliban but again, it kept clear of the term Muslim or even groping that part of the world together. Phantom Pain you were fighting WITH the Arab rebels during the Soviet occupation..to name a few. So in my own honest opinion, that particular point in this video I can't take seriously
True
considering how most americans (and to some extend arabs) believe that arabs are all muslims, your point is invalid.
@@azzzanadra That would in turn be the player and society's fault, not the game.
@@ManiacalBlueberry that implies that the game is separate from society. And if the game doesn't try to make the distinction between civilian Muslims and Arabs and enemy Muslims and Arabs, well that's the games fault. It's not hard to make the distinction too. I've seen plenty of games where you fight the Taliban and in one or two missions you have to save non-extremists or Arab civilians from terrorist groups. And any game set in the middle east could easily point to any of the many local militias and alliances which support the us to fight against isis or the taliban.
This did not age well
Wow, I guess it really is oppressive and unrealistic to dress women scantily in a medieval/fantasy setting. I guess to be as realistic as possible to the setting, we should just leave all the women as generic npc's who stay at home looking after their kids, like what actually fucking happened during medieval times.
+Azoonaloc13
Joan of Arc says your full of it.
Darus Smins
Exception, not the rule.
+Darus Smins wow one teenage girl some how debunks the rest of history because? reasons?
I think what you talked here is just how prejudice and stereotypes work in general. It's not specific to video games.
That's really the point of the video. Prejudice and stereotypes work this way in general. But we don't necessarily expect them in video games, so it leaves us with our defenses down. And if the video game, has us function within a particular world-view, the average person may not realize that their being subtly indoctrinated into a viewpoint.
Subtly indoctrinated is an oxymoron
Trying to remove your bias from your art removes the meaningfulness of the art
Key takeaway as someone designing a serious game: I better not introduce misconceptions.
Btw, what's the game at 7:31?
So if a Chinese game based on WWII conflict with Japan is a propaganda game. Does that mean Call Of Duty World at War is a Propaganda Game as well?
I think you could only call those historical games. They both based on real historical backgrounds. The only different is one is a shitty game marketing on patriotic factor and the other is a quite decent FPS.
BTW if you really know some Chinese ppl, you would know that the idea of "Anti Japan" doesn't need any more propaganda in China. It's a strong emotion widely spread among Chinese ppl that's already quite hard to control. Any commercial activity in China titled with "Anti Japan" is just a lazy marketing strategy. Pretty much like if you make a shitty game in Israel and titled it "Anti Nazi". It's just a cheap, stupid way of a company trying to sell a shitty game.
The thing I have found difficult to accept when playing Modern military shooters today is the whole "shoot that dude = awesome headshot bro"
Now I have no issue accepting the premise of soldiers shooting soldiers, but the trivilisation of the individual lives is what I take issue with
Of course this is subverted to an extent in some games, Take the Bell Tower mercenaries in Deus Ex:Human revolution, there are moments of humanity about them, if you hack into their emails you will get snap shots of their lives, families even. This for me made me feel bad for killing them, even though they are the default bad guys of the game, and events in the game such as the mercs shooting civilians may even justify using lethal force
The problem I have with the generic modern military shooter is, the value of a human life, albiet an animated NPC, seems to have been diminished to 100 points on a score board and some EXP
This is why I really found Spec Ops The Line, because it really talked about this subject lot.
Very interesting- I played railroad tycoon which is a game I love and it can turn some one into a vicious capitalist. That was not intended. But it makes you question about games. Obvious bias is shown in games where USA=good guys anyone else=bad guys
That's how it is in every game player faction= good guys other faction=bad guys so that's inevitable