Game Psychology đ§ | Extra Credits Compilation | Extra Credits Gaming
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We're kicking off the process of moving episodes over from our sister channel with a fantastic compilation of gaming mind games, including the Trolley Problem, Prisoners Dilemma, The Bystander Effect, and Imposter Syndrome. So you can utilize mind games for your players in your video game development.
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CHAPTERS
00:00 - Intro
00:06 - Trolley Problem
05:34 - Prisoners Dilemma
11:45 - The Bystander Effect
17:21 - Imposter Syndrome
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Showrunner & Narrator: Matthew Krol I Video Editor: Devon House Creative I Audio Editor: Clean Waves I Studio Director: Geoffry Zatkin I Social Media: Kat Rider | End Credits: Kawasaki Desu - Wave Race 64
Trolley Problem | Artist: Scott DeWitt | Writer: Lee Sheldon | Music:
Prisoners Dilemma | Artist Scott Dewitt | Writer - James Portnow | Bizarre Bazaar: Animal Crossing
The Bystander Effect | Artist: David Hueso | Writer: Lane Stanley | Cosmo Canyon: Final Fantasy VII
Imposter Syndrome | Artist: Scott DeWitt | Writer - Samuel Dassler | Calamari Inkantation Squid Saxes: Splatoon
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You guys are the Best â€â€â€đđ
Multi-track Drifting is a fundamental part of the Trolley Problem.
as gamer one must account for the maximun dps posible when dealing with the Trolley Problem
In CPR classes, they teach you to quickly assign duties to onlookers specifically to get around the Bystander Effect. Point your finger, make eye contact, say things like "YOU, call 911. YOU, get me an AED (either from the place you're at or a nearby business)" etc. It really works, because now there's an element of social pressure for the person to help, and as the first responder you have already 'broken the ice' in starting the helping process.
I remember learning that!
You left out a huge element of the Prisoner's Dilemma - repeat games. Most societal contact doesn't happen just once, we acquire reputations for how well we interact with others. The *Iterated* Prisoner's Dilemma is where active research is ongoing in game theory, and the results are fascinating.
Veritasium did a whole video on this btw
For the trolley problem, both reasonings are correct, but the second schoolâs conclusions are wrong. Taking one life is better than taking five, but both are lose conditions. The ultimate goal above all other goals is âeveryone gets to walk home alive todayâ. Thatâs not always possible, and when you have to make a choice thatâs morally wrong because there are no correct choices, it doesnât mean that youâre morally wrong. It means that the game was unwinnable from the start.
When he mentioned the doctor having to make that choice. I went, They always do. At least trauma surgeons do. It is called Triage.
With you on this one. Rather than just make the hard choice, we need to ask why the situation got so bad they were needed to be made
Real-life example of the bystander problem. I was waiting for the bus on a crowded corner. A blind man with his service dog was waiting to cross the road. Suddenly, the dog signaled to walk when the light at one of the busiest corners in my city was still green.
People stood there and watched, for what felt like forever, as this man inched closer to stepping in front of a car.
Someone eventually yelled, "Hey!"and immediately, a half dozen people around the man jumped forward to stop him. Two stayed beside him to lead him across the road once the light changed.
I was too far to have been able to intervene, but that moment sticks out because I saw it, expected others to react, and wasn't the one who shouted to get peoples attention.
The Trolley problem in Life is Strange made me realise that I will save whoever I'm most emotionally invested in, even if the whole town is on the chopping block.
Worst part about having Imposter Syndrome is when you have to deal with "your betters" that suffer from the Dunning Kruger Effect.
In MMOs the choice is easy - I heal whoever didn't piss me off recently.
Fair enough, healing no one is a choice.
Inaction is a choice. Now, I would scream and yell to try and get that one person off the tracks, but I would still choose to save the five.
Also, thank you for the bit on imposter syndrome. I needed that reminder
I heard philosophers hate the trolley problem because it distorts the actual issue and oversimplifies things.
In reality I think the best answer to the Trolley Problem is to Kobayashi Maru it, when faced with an unwinnable situation instead do your best to alter the situation into something that is winnable.
I was told often as a kid that not all calls for help are real. That some people will act like they need help but will either jump the person who helps or have a group hidden to jump them. That has scared me into not sure if to help because being a short woman and would look like an easy target.
YES I NEEDED THIS, I'm so glad there's a compilation for EC aswell, hope to see more in the future! â€
Happy to say we're working on more for the future!
The trolley problem also allies to game development since there tend to be several conflicting systems/mechanics that divide the player base (PvP vs. PvE, or the loud minority of a player base vs. the quiet majorities, examples of these arguments can be found on various Steam discussion areas)
I feel like a mistake people often make with things like the trolley problem is that they approach them like a problem to be solved, when they actually are ciphers for understanding/testing ethical systems. For instance, the way we ask the question can change its answer for people - if instead of pulling a lever to switch the rails, what if you had to physically push someone in the way of the train to stop it? Would that change your answer, and if so, why? Yeah, it's a contrived situation, but that's on purpose.
Inaction is an action. You're always responsible for the outcome no matter the initial state of the problem.
Under the assumption you _can_ do something, and there are decisions that can be made.
@@MaxIzrin You don't know what's possible until you attempt it.
Neutrality is the foolish idea you can benefit from evil without becoming it's next victim.
Exactly. The death of a single person and the burden it'll put on your conscience is easily the sacrifice to make. Ignoring the choice and letting the trolley kill five people may keep your conscience clean for a time, but only if you're a monster (or just incredibly numb to emotions). If you're a sane person you'll eventually end up the same mental place anyways, but with four more lives on your conscience instead of just the one.
The needs of the many.
I strongly disagree. The word even does. In-action means non-action.
Trolley problem, attempt multi-track drifting or trust their self-preservation to get off the track.
The prisoner dilemma is a question of trust, can you trust the deal to be true, can you trust the other to not betray you.
1. Is there a Multi-Track Drifting option?
2. I require healing....I need healing...I require healing...
3. I need healing...but im in a crowd
I remember watching each of these.
I remember when the recording about imposter syndrome first came up. I was already on board with you, but I hadnât yet experienced it.
I did two weeks ago.
Matt, youâre doing amazing! Youâre a great performer.
In SWTOR there was a trolley problem in the Republic Commando Quest Line. One of the romanceable characters for male PCs, later in the quest line is trapped in a space station where you are trying to save a group of hostages.
I had built her into my characters family tree as the mother of one of my other characters, (with my commando as the dad) do I was torn on this one and accepted the dark side points to rescue her. *Since apparently the hostages once released had to be hand held to get to your ship.)
The funny thing in my opinion, is that I was getting in to "the good place" the series at the exact moment this was uploaded I guess God/life itself want me to watch the full series.:)
Did you see the series where they had a variety of AIs play the prisoner's dilemma? I think the only one that won consistently was nice until backcrossed and then never forgave.
Note, this involved repeated encounters.
Chapter 1: I'd pull the emergency brake.
Chapter 2: Always Cooperation. No matter what. Watching myself in the mirror without guilt is more worth then anything else.
Chapter 3: Help or call help (dialing 911). Did the same in MMO's as Healer, sparing a heal on someone else isn't really an issue.
Chapter 4: ... ugh.... XD
The emergency brake is broken what do you do now?
@@LexiLunarpaw turn the railway switch after the train passed halfway, so the train derails.
â@@Rutanachanthe train flips and rolls over both tracks, killing you and all six people on the tracks
@@davidjennings2179 When I'm dead I can't feel guilty about it XD
I solved the Trolly problem! Just switch rails several times while the train is going past to derail it.
About the trolley problem. If you're forcefully put in a lose-lose situation, you can do your best to mitigate the outcome, but the responsibility is of the person that set you up.
Obviously with the trolley problem (outside version), you just turn away from the tied-down victims, let the trolley go through, and then pull the lever after it passes so the next trolley goes through on the other track. Thus, everyone on both sides is treated equally and fairly in the end.
Yeah the imposter Syndrome was really hard in my uni time. I thought working with someone else (instead of my usual programming group) would be good for me. But I held that person in really high regards. So when working together it was kinda hard. But later we found out that he actually thought the same about me. Because we didn't want to fail each other we basically prosponed our work for a long time. But when we knew about it from each other we were able to create something "acceptable" in just 2 weeks. We had 20 weeks for it. If we knew earlier our project would've been great.
i'm weirdly observant and vigilant. i've helped several people that tripped and fell, or were sick and crying, struggling. i don't wait, i just go forward. i've been in situations where someone was there to help me and i know how relieving it is to be saved that way.
In DAYZ when you come across another play it is in both playerâs best interests to work together 90% of the time, but this rarely happens, because the other player is a threat to you, and you are a threat to them, by killing you they eliminate a potential threat and steal your weapons and food.
It is always morally correct to push anyone asking the trolley problem onto the tracks of an approaching high speed trolley.
I remember going through this in ethics class. I always choose one. Even when they ramped it up to people to me, or a when they said I was headed to my own doom off a cliff. Was called a psychopath at times, but the thought was always about minimizing loss. 1 life painful, but more lives on your conscience would just be unbearable. Once they start saying things like, "All five dudes are Hilter," then the problem starts to lose meaning. We aren't talking about what is the right or wrong choice anymore, but who is good or bad.
In fable 2 ending you can choose between:
Saving a lot of innocent people.
Saving your pet dog.
And a lot of money.
Guess the most popular answer.
Love your content guys! Thanks For this â€â€â€đđ
Here I was fully expecting them to mention the Helldivers children vs mines problem haha
One game that gave me a prime example of this scenario is from the most wanted mission from Batman. Arkham Knight called shadow war. In the mission, we learn that Raâs al Ghul had survived his fatal fall from Batman Arkham city and there is a Civil War that is going on within the league of assassins and Raâs is connected to a machine that is giving him Lazarus chemicals, which are barely keeping him alive as Batman you were told that the rebel faction has found a purer source of chemicals and when you find these chemicals and fight against the rebel faction whom you learn itâs leader is Raâs other daughter Nyssa who urges you to go back and destroy the machine that Raâs is connected to and let him die. It definitely brings into perspective, Batmanâs moral stance on killing because there is the concern that if Raâs is restored to full health. There is no telling what he may do or whom he may hurt, but there is the fact that if you choose to let him die, then it is essentially breaking the code that Batman is known for. I have done both endings and they are quite interesting because if you choose to give him the cure, he will kill his daughter and escape and the rebel faction will flee and war will be averted for the time being, however if you choose to destroy the Lazarus machine When Nyssa shows up to kill her father Batman says that he will take him to the police and realizing that he would only have anywhere from only a few hours to possibly only a few days left to live she agrees, and she knows that the loyalist will scatter, and she will assume control of the league and swear off any incursions against Gotham and even Bat man leaves Raâs in a police infirmary he weakly tells Batman âProud of Youâ. I always found that mission to be very interesting and you canât feel wrong either way.
My favorite trolley problem in gaming comes in InFamous when youâre forced to choose between saving your girlfriend Tish, whoâs a nurse, or five doctors. It fits perfectly in the karma system of the game where itâs framed as choosing Tish is the InFamous option and the doctors is the Heroic option. But if you do choose to save Tish? PSYCH!!! The dastardly evil Kessler knew you would do that and so Tish is actually with four other doctors and you just saved a random civilian.
As a Medic main in tf2, itâs hard to say if I do this trolley problem, because it does lead to either stay or leave the fight if it gets to heated, to heal the one member on the defense, or provide healing to some that are in the cart. To be defending the point, or leave the others to their own devices, its thing like these that keeps my mind occupied and makes me question my morality
THANK YOU FOR MAKING THESE COMPILATIONS!!!
New Vegas had a solid one in Vault 34. Save 3 people trapped in the vault while dooming the share cropper farm which denies food to thousands in need, or let them die in the vault and restore the water supply.
KSP is very important to game psychology, at least for me. I always spread out my Kerbals for routine missions, hoping that the public appreciates everyone, while bigger missions are done with Jeb, Bill, Bob and Val to help shine a spotlight on the OGs.
Many many husbands that make hard selfless choices to value and take care of their families suffer deeply from imposter syndrome. Tomorrow is Fatherâs Day. Many many many men will be told tomorrow by kids, wives and others âyouâre a great dad!â Many of them will force a smile and say thanks while feeling entirely inadequate for the praise no matter how selfless and wonderful they have done.
Tomorrow remember to tell dads they are wonderful but also remember to act all the other days like they are valued in-spite of the flaws they see in themselves.
I tend to be very critical of the Trolley Problem because it trains people to think in binaries, deliberately disqualifying alternative solutions when creative thinking tends to lead to the best solution for most problems. You can have cake and eat it if you learn how to bake.
I would personally like to see all the Because Games Matter all in one place
Replaces your imposter syndrome with brilliant con man syndrome
My art suck but they keep buying it above it's value
Troll problem:
Patrol areas the most often targeted in your limited time frame or target a little of everything
You cannot be everywhere, so focus on the most at risk or half heartedly do some of everything
Pointing and assigning duties is also part of CPR training too. Interesting.
You always heal the tank, if everyone is playing their role properly the dps should only be taking minimal damage anyway. If the mage died its because they were standing somewhere stupid or the tank isnât properly maintaining aggro.
I actually had this happen to me in XCOM. My team was deployed to a city with rampaging aliens, with the objective to save as many civilians as possible. The near end of a turn played out such that my only remaining move was deciding what to do with a soldier armed with a rocket launcher, and ahead of me, 4 nasty but wounded aliens were pressing in on one civilian. If I let them go, on their turn one of them would kill the civilian and the rest would scatter and go after other nearby civilian targets. But man, that grouping was too juicy. I had the soldier aim the rocket directly at the civilian and obliterated it, along with the 4 aliens. That civvie was realistically dead either way, but I stopped potentially an extra 3 deaths by taking out the multiple targets all in one. I still refer to that incident as the "XCOM Trolley Problem" and would do it all the same given the chance. Sorry bud lol
4 scenarios we should all think about even if you don't have the answer
The Trolley problem only exists in philosophy and video games not in real life, because real life always has dozens if not hundreds of solutions to any given problem. The solution to the Trolley is very very simple, pull the lever half way which will result in the Trolley derailing and hitting no one. For every imaginary Kobayashi Maru, there is a hacked third option available. It becomes more a test of how imaginative someone is or how good someone's creative problem solving is.
The Trolley Problem: One of the less spoken of factors in the trolley problem is expected expertise and responsibility. (I am not a surgeon) Should a non-cardiologist surgeon attempt heart surgery? In most circumstances, no. A surgeon may attempt to stabilize a patient until a specialist can arrive if time is of the essence. What if a specialist, cannot arrive? The surgeon may be the patient's best shot at survival, so you can argue the surgeon should attempt to save their life. What if there are other patients they can treat who are also need surgery ASAP? The surgeon would be practicing outside their scope of practice while they were needed elsewhere, not justifiable. What if the other patients were not in urgent need of surgical intervention? Grey area; however, what if one of their patients suddenly requires urgent care while working on the other patient's heart? The morality around a lot of individual circumstances also factors in expectations and responsibilities on the individual making the decision.
I wouldn't be surprised if this contributes to the bystander effect, as briefly mentioned in that section. You might just assume someone else is more qualified to give meaningful help, whereas on your own, you're absolutely their best bet.
I think the biggest issue is that the trolley problem is by design immoral. There is no moral answer.
Thank you Lane
If you view Nash as optimal, it means you forgot to internalize the externals. Staying quiet is optimal over infinate itterations. Due to punishment feedback stratagies.
"Someone ought to do something" has never, in itself, been helpful unless it included the rider "and that someone is me."
Next video could be called Game Minds and talking about Devs or Game's Minds talking about NPCs
I would argue that every scenario in these philosophical exercises are overly simplistic and lack sufficient context. I'm constantly asking for clarification and further details. However, imposter syndrome is something I deal with frequently. I'm in my 40s and well into my career and I'm always feeling insufficient and undeserving of the praise and rewards I receive. I usually manage it by not thinking about it but it's brutal at times.
The troley problem doesn't have an answer, maybe... but the car one does. Can the peson inside the car save themselves? almost certainly not, they are strapped in and moving at very high speeds. The person outisde the car can jump away, or react in some way to not get hurt. autonomous cars are not trolley problems, they are minimization problems where you MUST consider the probability that someone can save themselves
Personally, I would not step into a car that could decide to sacrifice me for the greater good. Not because it would be the wrong choice, but because I don't like the idea of getting sacrificed.
nash equilibrium is worth a talk: my issue with it and the prisoner's dilemma is assumptions. Two people engaged in a crime together would likely have prior discussions about getting caught. At that point, they could logically assume their partner would NOT betray them, so the most logical answer in self-service, is stay quiet and take the one year. You can add in that people engaging in crime would likely have certain personalities, in a real world situation time will not stop so long-term consequences must be measured like not snitching and earning respect for it/snitching and being hunted, etc.
We NEED an extended version of matts trolley song
To heal the tank or the mage is an easy one, assuming that there are no other healers involved... You heal the tank, because when the tank dies, the mage dies too, unless the mage is especially good at kiting, and the boss is nearly dead anyways, OR, if the tank has very high survivability.
Then, sometimes, everyone is going to die, and you just decide that "nobody dies today" and somehow pull it off, gaining the admiration of a random group of heroes who sing your praises as you gulp down some water after the fight is over.
Pathologic and Pathologic 2 had prenominal examples of the trolley problem. Do you risk your life to save an abandoned baby? What if that baby is sick with the plague? But you're the only doctor around, and you know that baby might not survive. If you die, the town could die. Or not. While you're at it, should you steal from a starving family to give yourself a better chance at survival? People are depending on you, after all.
I really liked the *SPOILERS FOR TRIANGLE STRATGEY*
Choice of weather or not to give up Roland when the Kingdom is taken over.
For context, early in the game, the king is killed and an invading force kills all of the royal family except your friend Roland, the new crown prince. You little domain is threatened and either you need to fight against near impossible odds to protect him, or give him up and keep your domain safe for now until you can fight back later. There is a couple aspects of this I like, for one Roland weighs in on the decision making, and offers himself up as sacrifice. This adds a new level of depth, because imagine if the one person on the tracks told you to give up his life, which i have not seen in a trolley problem before. Secondly, its the way the question is posed. When I played, I voted to save Roland. Not because of the friend ship him and your character had, but because in my head "It will be a lot easier/more affective to restore the throne later/revolt if we have an actual crown prince to take the throne back". That isn't how the story went nor do I think that is an option or was even brought up as an idea from the game, but the fact that there were so many angles and ideas to consider that even I was trying to reason out what to do outside of what was planned/offered as the reasonings in the game, really stuck with me.
Fake it until you make it can be an effective short term fix. Even with depression or anxiety, going in front of a mirror and cracking the most ridiculous smile at yourself, and not stopping until you have to, will make you feel better afterward for a period of time. This is not a fix for chronic conditions, but bad days or emergencies, it can help. Also, people won't bother you as much the rest of the day when they come in the public restroom and see you smiling at yourself in the mirror like a lunatic.
In the trolley problem, I'd choose to save 1 and let the 5 die, viewing life as a competition. Good and bad are relative; eliminating those 5 people might mean fewer competitors for me, which is advantageous for my own survival. If it were my baby on the other track, I'd save my baby over 5 strangers. Those 5 lives may be valuable in general, but they hold no personal significance to me. Unless saving those 5 people made me feel like a better person or had some other personal benefit, my choice would be to save those who matter to me. In essence, I'd prioritize those who add value to my life or whom I care about, over strangers who don't impact me directly.
Classic, knowing nothing but the number of people per track? I hit the one person.
3:20 The video game, High on Life, literally has the player face the trolley problem directly.
Am I a bad person if I solve the trolley problem with logic? I mean the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
11:43 What song is that? I recognize it and it's driving me crazy!
The best solution to the problem is to not stand on the tracks people
I've an unusual view on the trolley problem. If you pull the lever, you killed, so your responsible for two dead (yourself is one of the two), so inaction adds 3 deaths.
This means pulling the lever, and shoving the fat man are the same to me.
5:20 Iâll put the trolly in gear 5 and make it swerve off the tracks to not kill anyone! (If nobody is in the trolly)
I loathe the trolly problem. It ignores the principal fail safe engineering. It's also a poor understanding of what it is to sacrifice and why you do it. The ONLY solution to the trolley problem is multi track drifting.
The prisoner's dilemma should seek legal advice before saying/doing anything.
Also NEVER be a bystander. Do something, even if that means just calling for help to bring in the professionals. Do a first aid course. Because if it was your loved one in need, you'd hope others would do the same.
The Walking Dead games are some of my favorites if all time.
If I am on the train I pull it, if I walking by I dont pull it
The best lens through which to look at the trolley problem is through neuroscience since in every other framework there is a baked in assumption that our brain only work one way. We actually have more than one system of thinking, and the result we get from detached analytical thinking about the problem, "ofcourse you kill the one, one is less than five, this is a no brainer" is very different than the default mode network that is active when you are standing there with your hand on the lever questioning if you want to kill someone.
By default, humans have a reluctance towards killing someone. And the closer and more bloody it is, the stronger it is. So its not really a moral dilemma, its more a question of what frame of mind is the person is, and are they able to overcome their programing or not.
Following the trolley problem back, someone, somewhere, has made a mistake. Be it the designer of the trolley, the maintainer fixing it, or what have you, someone else is truly as fault for the trolley not stopping. I would save the many at the expense of the few, but either way, it's not my fault.
12:43 and get arrested if it happens in germany since you have to help someone in a emergency both passive (Calling emergency service) and/or active (First-Aid).
The entire game of undertale
Like almost everything in life, the answer is, "It depends"
for the trolly problem I would pull the lever then pull it again so I'd know I killed thoughs five people then just walk a way
the trolly problem is supposed to teach there is no such thing as a "correct" solution sometimes, just different ones
Why didn't you let Eleanor say fork? Fork.
Why can't I say FORK!?
Puppy!
Pretty good singing!
One life lost can save five people
I ALMOST CLOSED THE VIDEO TOO EARLY BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT ENDED AT THE MIDDLE
7:01: you missed some important details! If A says something and B doesnât, what happens to B? The problem is only classic PD if B gets between 11 and 19 years, but you didnât say that part (EDIT: Ah, I see, you say a bit later itâs life. That means that an outsider ranks C,D as worse than D,D, which is nonstandard)
Say, can you derail the trolley?
Something STRANGE is happening to the bystander effect, due to it being known about these days. Check the newer studies.
The mathematics of game theory say that best decision is to rat but people in real life do not. Why? Iterated prisoners dilemma.
I had a hard choice in minecraft one time, die from a player (he takes my stuff) or jump ito a lava pit (i loose my stuff)
I would definitely make a different choice in reality compared to video games.
It feels different when you push the single person in front of the trolley rather than just pulling a leverâŠ
Or when you hear one person groaning in pain whilst you treat five others you know have a better chance of surviving.
11:37 *Goddammit Genji!*
Focus! You always heal the tank first, noob.
I have the feeling that those "dilemma" in 1 und 2 are nothing more than thought exercises, made up to have a nice discussion about morals, but really no practical value. 1) has a simple solution: do nothing. Then you are not responsible. Because to make a decision in impossible. 2) In my country (not the USA) there needs to be proof for someone to go to prison for murder. Only a single person tattling is not enough. So saying nothing is the best way for both.
conflicting personalities are in this chat
As a kid, Ultimate Alliance 1, save Jean Gray or Nightcrawler.
Easy! Save NC, since Jean always come back anyway
I know these now. Kill Jean and she returns as Dark Phoenix. Kill Nightcrawler and Mystique kills Professor X