Working Conditions - The Deplorable Status Quo that Killed a Studio - Extra Credits
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- čas přidán 18. 05. 2012
- (Original air date: November 2, 2011)
Extended periods of "crunch time" and other unethical, unhealthy working practices wreck long-term damage on the game industry itself, as well as ruin the efforts of the development team on the game they're trying so hard to pull together.
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♪ Intro Music: "Penguin Cap" by CarboHydroM
bit.ly/1eIHTDS
♪ Outro Music: "Ready to March" by Anti-Syne
ocremix.org/remix/OCR02284/ - Hry
It's distressing how much the Team Bondi description sounds like an abusive romantic relationship, down to assertions like "no one else will want you." No one should have to deal with that in any setting.
My dad, an IT manager in a former job, once worked on a project that had 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for 3 months. All the programmers, about 30 in total, were crammed into a room about the size of an airport bathroom the entire time. The project was cancelled when 2 of the programmers died of stress-related conditions.
They should really make a horror movie about this. Fuck clowns and little girls, this is a real horror.
MrAcuriteOf1337 wtf
Heh sounds like ibanking then
I worked in fintech. Its the same.
We need more tech people in executive positions instead of blood suckers.
@@pillgrim6284
"Death Room"
Good job to the artist, it looks excellent.
RPGtalkout It does.
RPGtalkout Like an actual artist creating true art.
I was rewatching this episode and now I'm like "Holy shit, I remember that name! I work with the guy!" XD
Its a professional game artist
Oh yeah yeah
How oddly poetic that the warbled credits song sounds like "E-EA-A."
EA's working conditions actually aren't that bad, especially by industry standards.
@@FraserSouris yeah its everything else that sucks.
Yes, not to account on all that Bioware did the last 5 years, sure
@@FraserSouris Far better than the slave plantation that is Konami
@@FraserSouris Even if that was really the case, I wouldnt work in basically a companny killer and greedy company
This is a condition that sadly hasn’t gotten any better in the 9 years since this came out
I had NO idea that Team Bondi had such a hard time. I DID wonder why I'd never heard of them or why they never made a game since. I though L.A Noire was brilliant masterpiece and the first of it's kind. It's a crying shame what happened to them.
It is a shame, this game would've been cancelled if it weren't for Rockstar dropping a huge stack of money for the devs
TotallyToonsTV d
This was one of the videos that I watched before getting into the industry 10 years ago. I had just quit my job at the restaurant finished school and was on the path knowing that these warnings were in place. It is absolutely insane to see how little has actually changed. Don’t get me wrong, There is some good out there, but even now I realize there’s lots of lessons we haven’t learned.
So, this episode is the Jimquisition's entire channel.
And nothing has improved in 7 years.
Wheeeeee, I'm excited for the game industry.
dont have a problem with crunch, doesnt scare me away from the dream, but unecessary crunch and violation of work environment laws, then i'll leave.
im not a dog
Drakensson crunch is a problem In a lot of fields, it's a failure from the management and a problem for your health, it's not ok and should not be accepted as the norm
@@nuruluin9840 Yup, if crunch if the norm, and you aren't adequately compensated for that crunch, you need to really examine whether the job (any job) is worth the trouble. You might have to look outside your current industry and/or geographical area for a solution, but you do have other options, don't let any supervisor or manager tell you otherwise.
go with the indies dude
It's 2016 and I still hearing a lot of industry vets telling young talent to simply stay away from this industry and that it's not worth the stress, health risks, lost time with loved ones, etc...
Gotta say as my 18 year old self I salivated at the idea of working for a game studio but now I'm not to sure. Don't want to be defined by only my work, there are other things I want to do...
+DBZHGWgamer Don't get me wrong I love computer science, technology, software development, and the overall tech culture/scene . That's why I've spent the past 6 years coding for school, as a hobby, and professionally. I've had 60+ work weeks for months at a time and it's all fun from the standpoint of "feeling" the spiritual reward when you develop your skill and master the art. Hell, the sheer fact that I can do things with a computer now that my 17 year old self could only dream of is awesome. All that talk of making games as a kid, I can do that now if I wanted too! But the work you'll be doing in industry is quite a step down from the perfectly designed patterns and architectures you theorize in class. All the shit you learned about complexity in computation theory will go out the window. You'll be working on remedial problems day in day out. My guess is that Game Dev is the same meat grinder as any other coding shop but with shorter (more aggressive) development cycles. If you really love coding, make it your hobby and join the open-source community, make mods, go to talks, browse Hacker News, read academic/industry papers, get your masters or PhD in CS, etc. You don't have to show your "love" for coding by working in a cubical for 60+ hours a week.
+DBZHGWgamer If you want to be project lead and make something you are proud of you can do that already, you don't need to be on someone's payroll... Just download Amazon Lumberyard, hit up the documentation, and get working.
+DBZHGWgamer Listen, you know the main course project of Brenda Romero's Game Development class? She has her students make a board game. Design theory holds whether it's $100 million dollar project or a couple $100 bucks. You can develop something original but also slick with low production costs, it just takes creativity. Besides if you can't handle making something interesting for 0 cost than you should probably reconsider being a project lead on a big project, because no one will give you the money. At very least, if you are so set on working on "big budget" titles then look at it as your first stepping stone to getting there. Every developer hired by big name studios has a portfolio of small pet projects they have done, if you don't have sample work to show then you can forget about working in a studio in the first place.
+DBZHGWgamer I'm saying you won't even get hired as a Junior programmer if you can't do the aforementioned.
+DBZHGWgamer It's never to early to start. When I was your age I was already playing around with dev kits, trying to compile game code with basic variable changes, making levels, playing around with blender, etc. Take an active interest, not a passive one.
It's 2019 and the industry is *way worse.* But then lootboxes and microtransactions are pervasive and on the verge of government regulation as gambling. This is the content-as-manufactured-product era.
And in 2021, Cyberbug 2077 the bad industry practices and treatment of employees is still happening
Well, for cyberpunk, it's a mix of overhyped fans who preordered, the publishers who want to make money, and the devs who alneed to actually make a game
*Laughs in Tell-Tale Games*
Have there been any efforts towards unionising amongst video game designers? I remember reading somewhere that a report back in the 2000s recommended it as one solution to these sorts of practices, but the industry unsurprisingly rejected it. Giving developers a way to organise and push back against abusive practices could go some way towards eliminating these problems.
Aren't unions widely disliked in America? :P
FuturisticSalad
In Norway, unions technically have the power to completely shut down the entire production of an industrial complex.
Though that's actually never happened.
Do you have any cases of union bullying in America? Is there a different culture over there?
At least here in Europe, Unions tend to be relegated to the role of securing worker safety and combating the income gap(which from what I gather is a growing problem both in Norway and the US). Though there's fewer of them now with the industry moving to the second and third world.
SinerAthin That stereotype of this country is based largely on one party. That is only half of the picture, and it depends on the industry. Some unions in the country really are overly aggressive, while others don't have the support they need.
I think a union might be exactly what is needed to get the concerns above heard by the administrators, an association might be a good place to start. There are unions in plenty of artistic fields like the AFM (Neil Young was a member for example).
Despite what bosses want you to think, most unions have done amazing things for their workers and even other workers by lifting standards (paid sick leave, workers compensation, paid maternity/paternity, the weekend, right to representation in conflicts, etc.).
Absolutely some pretty disgusting legislation has been passed to tie the hands of workers in negotiating their working conditions. That being said, every union I've ever heard about or worked with is set up like a democracy. A new collective agreement is voted on by workers (although I think the number is 50%+, I like the idea of raising the voting %).
I think some of the things you typed above is a pretty big stretch though, I know you said the links weren't working but just saying "big union bosses are paid 2 million" is just not true as a whole, and I'd like to see specific union citations to believe a statement like that (plus what is 'big'?). If there are many bosses being paid that much than I'd agree that's a problem and we as union members have to sort that out. It's our organization. I don't think that that is a reason to discount all union worth though.
In my union, all but one staff member (lawyer) is paid the same rate per hour as the average employee, and the only raises are tied to the raises negotiated for the union members.
I've worked in gaming for over 35 years and it's almost imposable to have a tight schedule in a creative field unless your working with an established team. As an example, when I was the lead designer for Virgin Games in the early 90's my first game took 6 months to make, the next one Cool Spot took 4 months and Aladdin took 3.5 months and out on schedule, only because the team was in place across a number of games and each team member knew how fast everyone could work. Today people move around from studio to studio so often that you're always working with new people and their unknown abilities.
Sounds like the management style that exists in call centers. The difference being they are making conditions WORSE, lowering pay and cutting benefits. Also their is no desire to actually fix the problems. One of my co-workers was from the Philippines and worked for the same call center over there and in the US. She was appalled by how things were done in the US. In both countries management was tyrannical and she felt that wasn't a good idea in the US. The real difference came in working conditions and employee treatment. The facilities in the Philippines were much nicer and managers would actually do things like give their employees rides to work. They demanded total obedience but if they got it they treated the line employees far better. In the states hazing would last 1 to 2 years and at no time would they try to work with the employee or compromise in anyway.
I experienced this in MY call center job as well...and in most blue-collar jobs i've ever worked. It's the corporate world, plain and simple
the art is beautiful
+Zachary Morris In my opinion it is very lacking.
+DaCo Video you should see some other art done
Most big business under value and over work their creative types. There is a cultural idea that creatives should work for less, its expected they sacrifice for their art (this bs attitude prevails through society don't buy into it). My advice is to aim to work for yourself build your own future and don't be used by big business. 95% of the industry is just using up your best years for their gain, lets not sugarcoat it.
So fucking true
Everlet t what is the exposure not enough for them? They’re getting work experience! They get to work with an established studio! How could they be any less than overjoyed at the prospect of working for less than they’re worth
Is it intentional that the outro music sounds like it's singing EA over and over? xD
... Now I hear it like that!
Ye boi
Ye it's in the background of the outro music I think?
Wow, I'm amazed no one has shit up the comments of this post saying that those overworked programmers "have it easy" because "at least they aren't doing backbreaking work for those 12 hours a day". Nice to know that the gaming industry has as much corrupt "ethics" in regards to it's workers as most other industries these days.
Finally! I've been looking for this comment.
That's because being creative is 10x harder than manual labor. Not psychically ofcorse but mentally. How many labors can make a realistic human walk, talk and fire a gun with a computer program? I sure cant ^_^
***** Your reasoning is flawed, because you're saying that a really bad job (hard manual labor) is "better" than a very bad job (poorly managed game studio), but it doesn't matter because they are both bad. So stop saying they have it "better", because in their mind, those developers are going through as much hell as a manual laborer would.
“If your job doesn’t involve you doing extreme physical work for 12+ hours a day for minimum wage then it isn’t a real job!”
-Random McDonalds Employee.
As a programmer, "mandatory crunchtime" was the main reason I never ventured into game development.
The Web development world has a much more relaxed work attitude. Overtime isn't unheard of, but it's rare and crunchtime for entire companies is unheard of.
I think it has to do with the nature of the product and the teams.
Websites are continually developed while games have to be finished before the shipping date. There's a heavy focus on launch date for games while web site deadlines can easily be postponed.
And of course a web dev team is usually very small and more flexible
BenRangel I have the same profile and I just hated when the video said that he wasn't against crunch, the videogame industry is so used to the "you are lucky" cliche
You are not lucky, you are good and you should ask to be treated as a competent professional!
Watching the bungie video "Git ta werk" from the halo 3 bonus dvd was the reason why I decided to go into Web design and not game development.
This applies to a lot of creative industry
What did the director do?
+thomas tambke He omitted the VFX artists from his acceptance speech for best director.
+Liou David Or just about any industry. You want to look for a source material for why some people crack and jump off buildings or go out and murder the entire office they work in it is probably because they were worked into the ground and couldn't handle it anymore.
There is a reason why the term "going postal" exist since many of these people that ended up shooting up their respective Post Offices they worked at is because they were treated like crap by their management and forced to work ungodly amounts of hours.
Well... I guess some people don't get it.
In creative industry they push you to the extreme limit, like it's a life or dead situation, every time, when they gave you tight datelines and expect you to work 24/7 (a lot of designers do some 70-85 work hours per week). They want you to work like a doctor but have the salary of a clerk (unless you are pretty senior or at director level).
The thing is, even if client send in the brief late, they still want you to rush out the work in stupidly-almost-impossible time frame, and asked you to work for the whole weekend.
Ain't no one gonna die if your adverts are late by a day or two (hence my analogy to doctor) - because you get in your brief late in the first place? Most of the time they have shit ton of buffer time, they just want you to be done early so they can take their own sweet time.
That's the reason why there were designers that died in a "light job in front of a computer" and most quit the field altogether after a few years.
this is a great piece. i noticed myself probably about the same time you released this that these days so many games companies are headed by MBA's, whereas in the past they used to be run by game designers and software engineers. it's not really surprising that everything goes badly when the person calling the shots hasn't even done the job he's supposed to be overseeing.
i think actually it's something that is spreading over society in general - we're seeing people in management positions basing their decisions on what they think must be true rather than what they've personally experienced to be true. it's certainly the case in teaching today. teachers used to make the rules and decisions, which made sense because they knew their particular group of kids better than anyone else, but now teachers have to do as some one behind a desk in the education department decrees, even though they've never tried this new idea themselves and usually haven't even taught any class ever. if any of you are still reading this you're probably thinking well teachers are terrible so they need it, and part of that is correct because teachers are teaching badly because they have to (fired if they do it differently because that's the "wrong" way), but most of that actually you are wrong, and you've come to the wrong conclusion because your knowledge is incomplete because you don't have any teaching experience - if you taught for a couple years it'd be obvious that idea was silly.
it's something that's well known in the military (from what i hear), commanders who have spent little time in the field tend to make poorer decisions and don't gain the support of their troops, yet the same idea that so obviously fails there we now think of as being the way to go when promoting people in companies. "why on earth would we hire this guy to run our games company? he knows nothing about business!" and instead they hire the guy who knows nothing about their product, what it takes to create, what makes their customers want their product, nor what keeps them coming back.
in the military, there is a term called "mustang" which refers to officers who used to be enlisted soldiers and know the work inside and out. mustangs usually make better decisions and get more support from their troops (as well as respect) because they know how things work and what it's like to be enlisted. the "mustangs" in gaming industry would be senior engineers who are in charge of other junior engineers.
Oh, right in the feels. My boss once tried to convince me, the artist in the group, that good art can be drawn in 15 minutes. Then he gave me 50 arts to do in, like, two days.
If those arts could speak, when I finished them, they would painfully whisper "Khhhiiiiill mheeeee", while choking on blood and pooping themselves violently.
Capitalism, ho!
the issue is that the higher ups need to know what can be done with the art, the programming, and the game design.This way they know what is reasonable and what isn't.
The issue is that the people running these game companies don't give a shit about games. Seriously, go look into Ubisoft for an example. Nobody in the higher levels knows anything about gaming.
Five years!?! Think of all that lost experience and talent just draining away. That can't be good for business having to recruit and train a constant stream of new talent
+4Mobius2 That's what happened when there was a large push with private colleges telling people to get into game design.
When there's so many more people taking on debt to get themselves trained every year than there are entry level workers in an industry, they become disposable.
If their new hires are paying for most of their training themselves, and there's a constant stream of them, lured in by advertisements from the private colleges, beyond what can actually get jobs, you've got a bad situation.
Working conditions? "Accept what we give you or give up on that degree you just spent years on and your passion and do something else."
Pay? "There's a bunch of other people, desperate from lack of work and loan payments that want to work your job."
Burnout? "You payed for your education, and there's a new class of graduates that have just been trained on the latest industry standard dev. tools to replace you. Doesn't sound like my problem. Keep up or we'll fire you."
This is the typical result of private colleges saying "You should work in X industry!" when how you do after you graduate has little effect on them. Afterall, they can always play with how they count to make their job placement rates look better. All they need to do is trick someone fresh out of highschool, and when the costs come down, they fall on people that don't have the power to do anything about it.
So sadly, it is good for business, because you're basically subsidizing your production costs with the loans taken out by college students that you can treat as disposable. Is it fair? Nope, not in the slightest, but if we leave a door wide open for an industry to push the costs of running on their business onto others, it's all but inevitable that it will happen.
[rant]I had to change career paths before I fell into this trap, so I've spent quite a bit of time looking into this. Yes, lots of great talent and drive is being thrown away in this cycle, never having a chance to become established before they're disposed of like a cheap product.
And yes, I am bitter. I sit here seeing so many games with such poorly designed mechanics and interfaces (where my talent was most) being pushed out of an industry that I had been preparing myself for since early highschool. Sadly, I had to turn my back on my dreams of getting in because the most likely scenario would be that by now, I would be burned out, unemployed (or working some crap job in some other profession), and something like $50,000+ in debt right now after being replaced by the next round of college grads (who would only get the same treatment in turn).
In my case, despite the fact that I habitually break down game mechanics of even good games that I like in my head. Despite that doing so leads me to, without trying, come up with 6-12 places where the game mechanics and interface interfere with the game achieving what it's going for (and that's without me trying). Despite that I can usually, in 1minute, come up with several good solutions to each of those problems. Despite that I had the drive for this to be my dream job, even knowing how hard it really was, and before they started telling people to get into the industry. Despite having quite good academic potential by whatever metric you pick (GPA, IQ, SAT, #of college credits earned while still in highschool, dive for independent learning, etc).....despite all that, today, instead of putting that all to use, I was glad to get a call about a night shift job unloading trucks.
And sadly, all that is far from a rare story, nor even the worst of it since I don't have loads of debt and the industry does this to people more talented than me as well. (for example, there's a good chance that there's someone not working in the industry because of this kind of problem that could outdo the industry standard for AI design had they been given a _real_ chance)
So next time you find a game with some feature that makes you think
"what idiot designed this?" remember that there was probably someone
with the natural talent to not make that mistake that wanted to work in
the industry but isn't because they were treated like they were
disposable, or (like me) got out before that happened. [/rant]
IDK if anyone's read to this point or not, I just had to type that. I'm not looking for pity and I don't think what happened to me is anything that rare even. Actually, it not being rare is the very reason stories like this need to be told: because they wont stop occurring if they're allowed to go untold, in this industry or in any other.
"You're lucky to even be working in this industry" is a sure sign of an abusive relationship between employer and employee being a standard situation. It's the career equivalent of someone threatening to leave you saying that they could get with anyone else, or that you'd never be able to get someone as "good" as them....and calls for the same response: leaving, no matter how hard that might seem for you.
DynamicWorlds
Most informative. Thanks
+DynamicWorlds do you think that getting an education towards the gaming industry is even worth it or should i look into something else becuase right now i have choice to change my career path in a few months
@@majnup7 hey, I'm from the future. How are things going with you now?
@@fauxhound5061 it's okay I guess, I actually ended up just doing a business course instead; atm tho I am working part time. Thanks for asking lol
This is the best art I have seen in your videos thus far. Makes it feel magical and inspiring.
definitely sounds like today's Konami if you ask me
Or Ubisoft
+JaffeCakeINC I worked an internship at Ubisoft.Yeah there is definitely crunching but they were miles better than alot of indie studios who usually dont have a goal set.Its a young industry and we are learning as we progress.
Young industry? You could have said that about it when the N64 and PSX were released. By now we should have this shit figured out...
φ First-order logic That is definitely a good point but compared to other forms of media I feel like the gaming industry is the one that is growing the fastest so constantly adapting all the while trying to improve our conditions can be tough.This isn't me trying to justify it btw.I wholeheartedly agree that dramatic change is needed.
My only real problem with today's gaming is internet connectivity. Yes, it brought us awesome online multiplayer for co op and competitive play, but at the same time we have to deal with bullshit beta games that get patched half assedly and also loads and loads of DLC that really should come with the game... I'm looking at you, Sm4sh with paid Roy and Ryu...
Maybe it's just me, but when I hear the closing song I keep hearing "EA"... "EA-ay, E-EA-ay".
Was this a happy accident? Or a subtle commentary given the subject matter?
I know which explanation I personally prefer...
raikespeare EA's working conditions actually aren't that bad, especially by industry standards.
raikespeare EA's working conditions actually aren't that bad, especially by industry standards.
I wonder if that's what happened with Aliens: Colonial Marines. The Press Events thing I mean.
Incidentally, concerning that game, I heard that it was discovered recently that one of the biggest issues (the AI incompetence) stemmed from a one-character typo. In a nutshell, AFAIK, the piece of code that handled when an enemy had to switch behaviors (ie, going from patrolling the area to chasing a player they spotted) had a typo that caused it to break and not do anything; hence why the enemies blindly walked around completely ignoring you. That’s hardly the only issue with the game, and it was still incompetently made, but it’s still a funny story.
"Don't be evil" sounds like an excellent working strategy.
2012.I dont think its gotten that better. I still hear horror stories.
Holy shit! That image at 5:57 is where I live! :D
...A crashed car?
MrThemself
That's why I love youtube hahah
7:51
So, Nine Dots is Google in disguise?
That scene with the crippled game made me want to cry and hold the game and tell it "You're gonna be okay!" It was adorably saddening.
I'd comment that this also happens in other entertainment industries but considering Daniel Floyd's background, I'm sure he's no stranger to those either. However it's incredibly frustrating at times as the dude at the bottom when you're being essentially screwed for something that's in no way your fault (I just had to blaze through a few projects that lacked assets that were suppose to be finished weeks ago and I just had to "make due").
My advice is to know about labor laws, have a backup plan in case you need to pull out, and accept jobs that give a salary rather than be project based; I've seen many friends who've accepted animation jobs based on how many frames they can turn out, and got terribly screwed because they simply cannot put out enough frames within a week to make a decent wage.
But salary isn't necessarily better because then you are getting a set pay no matter how many or few hours you are putting into the project.
This reminds me of Dan Pink's ted talk "The puzzle of motivation". You guys made the case that a 'whip cracking' attitude is harmful to employees because they don't see the goal. The problem runs deeper than that, but it was really neat to hear you talk about why it runs so deep in your unique game dev. perspective. The problem is basically that you can't be creative in a 'knuckle down and work' environment, but creativity has only because valuable lately and only in special jobs so bosses haven't really learned good ways to get artists, programmers and the like to make cool things in a 9 to 5 way. Dan Pick has some good hints to fixing the problem, but I just now realized this is a problem with an extra credits shaped puzzle piece missing. If I ever have enough money to buy a show topic it will be that. This isn't just a question that needs explained well, it doesn't have a full answer yet.
Twelve-hour work days: We teachers deal with that, but without the big bucks.
+GymbalLock Don't you have 2 months vacations during the summer too?
Though I'm not a teacher and wouldn't know for sure, I don't think they get that time to themselves, as there is probably a lot that needs to be done to prepare for the next year.
I am sorry for your loss.
12 hours as a coal miner is not the same as 12 hours as a gardener.
I really love the art in this episode. He did an awesome job!
11 years and little has changed.
6:30-7:00
Is that maybe what happened to watch dogs?
TheBanned0ne acualy all those graphics options were in the game and shipped with the pc virshion but were made so you couldn't tun them on a mod came out thats simply a config file that turns them on
nibulux
And to be totally honest, Most of the graphics there didn't work well in the full game. Certain areas. certain places.. Yeah, looks good. I switched off the graphics to the stock 'high' setting shortly after.
Thankyou for this Video ExtraCreditz. I hope to start my studies next year and this has given a bit of and eye opener into the field I hope to work in. It has not turned me off it but has given me something to look out for when I start looking for paid work.
I'm so glad I'm entering my career in 4-5 years. This legit scared me to the point of reconsidering, but with this in mind, I'm now aware that I need to choose carefully which company to sign a contract with.
Or be independent
I REEAAAAALY liked the not total white background! :)
It is distressing when I saw this in 2016 hoping by then this video from 2012 would come true. But yeah nothing has change.
They should do a video on the public accounting industry - the same aspects apply in the audit and assurance profession, except its even worst than gaming industry because effectively everyone ends up making less than minimum wage considering the 80 hour work weeks.
Reminds me of the investment banking service, where most people typically quit after 5 years. Everybody knows working conditions lead to a system wide crash but no one with power is pushing to fix it. Difference is, bad games companies can only crash themselves whereas bad investment banks can crash other financial services, from retail banking to insurance to pension funds, with it.
This is not only present in gaming industry, this is a worldwide practice that has become more common everyday ... this is to compete with China and India Sweatshops ... this is not going to end well, at some point you have to realize that working like this is slavery with low wages just to call it a job ... >.
Balook R. Lovely when they say that, specially like in my country (Costa Rica) corporations have managed to destroy all local companies and setting themselves up as the only option, leaving you with the choice of changing your current company to another one with the same ideals but different name ... just lovely!
Personally I think that game developers should be unionised. Allow them to push back against these practices and give them a little more control.
Alex Goldhill Carefull, you said Union, that's a bad word! ... but in all honesty, I believe we all should have for each specific area we work at but that's a discussion for another topic.
Well, technically it has become less common everday, thinking that this is the way it has been through all mankind's history. Before there hasn't been a way to even retire ever, you worked until you died unless you are royalty, there hasn't been any kind of rules for the management and this has slowly changed. I feel that because only now we can see and find out about how bad things really are, we are starting to realize it and that is why don't see that the things have actually changed for the better. I do not, however, argue with the fact that the big corporations definitely don't want the change to become any larger than this, and they probably want it to go backwards, so that the working class has less and less power, no matter the industry. Bringing it up in just gaming is a little deceiving though because it does indeed happen anywhere where people work. You can think that oh man I'm so tired working 12 hours a day, well your manager tells well at least you don't work in Africa in this place for 16 hours a day and earn three times less etc. It is not a reason to have shit conditions just because most of the world would have even worse conditions. Sadly, I do not think it's ever going to change, the ones in power are too intelligent about the human psychology to never let people globablly realize they could choose otherwise, or just completely eliminate the choice from them. The big companies will NEVER change ANY of their harmful policies as long as there is always a new guy coming to the same shit job after the last one quits(or is used up). And as the population increases this won't change either, the natural human survival instinct forces us to do anything in order to maintain existing, so when you get hungry enough you go back to that shit job if there is nothing else you can do, or you die and someone else goes and does it anyways. There is no reason for the "evil" companies to become ethical, at least not until the companies who are ethical start making so much more money than them that they have to. If you just listen to people who tell you you gotta do this because I say so and waste your short time doing that then you are definitely not going to get anything in return for that from them. They don't need to thank you for your sacrifise because you were just a replacable tool all along, and that's how most people are. Like in Japan average person works like 60-80 hours unpaid extra work IN A MONTH, and some die of that, still nothing changes. Think about it.
Just finished L.A. Noire, one of my favourite games of all time. What a fucking shame it was born of that.
I just discovered you guys, and I gotta say I'm REALLY enjoying this
Watched this episode for the first time today. This just became even more relevant again with Visceral. I really liked your optimistic view on publishers, though it does really suck when a studio/project you like is being shut down. :/
It's still relevant when you hear about whats going on with CDPR and it's sad knowing what's going on with the industry is still happening years later
oh, and the fundimental problem with adding a time limit is that rushing art is pointless. video games are art at the end of the day and rushing someone only ever gets bad results.
Science has proved this! Example, I'll give you $100 for a really good creative idea. The problem is, you have no idea what I think 'good' is, for all you know all your awesome ideas are shit and you should give up now. The higher ups need to realise this v.v
doign things too fast leads to errors, which them annoy gamers. I typed that fast... fucked up the 'doing' and 'then'.. yeah, it's mainly my bad typing but if I had gave myself more time I would have punctuated and spelled everything correctly. you still get the jist of what I was saying, just not as well as if I actually bothered doing it right the 1st time.
"video games are art at the end of the day" this is true for a game designer, a game developer and gamers. However, this is not true for the industry itself and the people who are in charge of business. For them, videogames aren't seen as art, they're just an entertainment product that needs to ship as fast as possible in order to make lots of cash and that's it.
@@OurBrainHurtsALot I mean the issue is that, especially for games that are professionally made, you can't go on making it otherwise you are just continuing it till it's unsustainable to keep going and you have to send it out.
Much like with art commissions, if someone is paying you for an art piece, even if they don't ask for it by a specific time at some point the money they give you is not worth continuing to perfect the artwork.
Why do game companies force their employees to work these horrendous hours instead of bringing in extra help?
In other development industries you never have the massive amounts of crunchtime that the game industry does, if it looks like a project is not meeting the deadline you try to bring in extra help.
Does it have something to do with game company culture?
Do you believe that too many cooks spoils the broth?
Or are there just too many practical reasons (like secrecy for new titles) that make it hard to bring in new people for shorter amounts of time?
This is what I was thinking. It's a win-win. More work, less burn-out.
Melissa Ross
Yes but the more staff you bring in, the more money you spend. A lot of companies believe game makers to be lazy, and so feel if they force 'crunch time' they can get the same result as more staff, without spending money. We have a stereotype that follows us, and those that don't know games will believe is just as commonplace as the fake Italians speak-a like-a mario
Absolutely +Pok3Wolf, as a graduate student who works as a Teaching Assistant, there is this assumption that we have all of this time on our hands, and we should be grateful/we're here for the sheer 'opportunity' and 'love'.
I guess it just comes down to basic respect and human dignity. A normal amount of crunch is fine, but this seems unreasonable, and in fact, in Vancouver, BC there are laws exempting video game programmers from overwork labour laws. Nothing about the field of videogame programming calls for that. I see it as corporate greed or mismanagement, pure and simple.
Melissa Ross That's horrible. Other software devs are not treated that way. I find it especially odd that game devs are disrespected, cause game companies are often either big divisions or entire businesses focused solely on games - which should mean bosses respect games and understand the work, since it's their core business. (compared Web devs who often are a small team working in or for a larger company who's core business is not Web design. In those cases you might expect bosses to not get what you do.. But we usually get tremendous amounts of respect)
Be aware not all companies are like that. It really depends on how much the higher ups understand of the medium. Also, this is a mentality that is slowly changing. But it's a slow process to change a stereotype.
As a dev who managaed to retain his job during the Coronavirus pandemic, it's crunch time and we're being reminded how lucky we are.
Well, almost been 5 years since I saw this first and about 6.5 years since I started working as a games programmer. Still at it thankfully and hearing far less stories about poor working conditions and sudden studio closures, although I think the latter is due to studios settling after the mobile shake up
The problem is these are creative jobs. Jobs like manual labor, production, farming, sales, financing, etc. Those are jobs that are essential for modern society. Creative fields like writing, design, film, video games, etc aren't seen as such.
heman can't live without technology does not include games
entertainment is there so you don't die of boredom.
Hi Extra Credits, how are? i have a little team, and this videos are AWESOME! and we think make spanish translation for that, how we can send it?. Thanks for this!
We're happy that you want to submit translations! Follow the instructions in this CZcams help article: support.google.com/youtube/answer/6054623?hl=en
for some reason i dont have tha "add" option :/
I really do love the art style of this episode a lot.
This is actually true of software development overall. It's just that when you work making updates to web apps or maintaining business software, there's not that much love and passion in it to begin with, so when management threatens you, you ignore them or find a new job.
yes, the ultimate goal: Don't be Evil.
Devs must unionize. Plain and simple.
Amazing art style and such a revelation for me to learn about the working conditions of this industry. :/
i have to thank you guys so much. this video was great and i feel bad for the people working in these conditions but im talking about your discussion of modular design. I am a procrastinator by nature so i never have the will to start any big project but by applying the idea of building the most basic and then building on that i have actually started to do well in school
I did a little testing a few years back at rare and I have to say they were a great company to work for. The hours were long, generally a 8:30am start, finishing at about 9:00-9:30pm.. but that was fine. I knew guys there working that shift everyday for months or so at a time without having time off. The company was great though.. everyone got free ice cream from a van that would pull up on site twice a week, we'd play football at dinner on the grounds (it was a big place) and if you worked saturday or sunday you would get a free subway/mcdonnalds.. oh and a free dinner every other day anyway.
Here's a tip., during break head to the smoking area.. I had a few chats with guys out there only to later find out they were some of the lead developers.. just thought it was cool chatting games with people who understand the crap im talking.
It's easy work, honestly.. testing that is.. not development.. my god, that's not easy. It's basically just a checklist of values you need to test.. like xp for certain activities. you do spend time finding bugs too, but mostly the text and texture kind.. I remember getting out of a few maps and dancing around like an idiot behind a looping crowd (kinect game, full avatar control :) ) and filing bug reports for the bugs found.. including a video demonstration and a step by step written guide.. which is kinda why I started making these videos on youtube, because I loved recording silly things at work. I even bought the same model that they had in there as I knew it was good. Unfortunatly I only worked there during the end of development but hopefully I get some more work with them soon.. all I'm saying is it's easily possible to get a job in gaming.. just be honest, let them know you have a passion for gaming and that you're happy to be called upon anytime :)
Many gamers need to learn to be patient, sometimes deadlines should be missed, that would be better than a buggy game made by overworked game developers.
Very lovely art in this episode. I've grown used to the usual art so this still feels out of place, but lovely none the less ~
Hey guys! This was a quite interesting video and when I notice it's from 2012 I thought it will be cool if you can do a V2-7 years later version of this video. Just to check it there was any evolution at all or if we are still on square one. Keep the awesome work!
its still relevant today. it does depend on the company you work for, but i have experienced /know people who have experienced some of these recently
It sounds to me like these developers should unionize and fight together for their rights as workers. Too bad this country has spent the last 70 years making its workers fight and compete amongst themselves in one giant race to the bottom. Work as hard as possible and let your employer reap all the benefits because you're worthless unless you're rich.
Alex Golembeski Maybe someday games will be respected as art and there will be game developers guilds and unions. But I don't think that's going to happen in the meantime, because no big company is going to agree to that.
Alex Golembeski A simple reading of circumstances like that is very rarely sufficient. The games industry needs unions, but what you describe is one hell of a hyperbole.
Dagda Mor
How so? Income inequality in the US is absolutely unbelievable. In the past 50 years American worker productivity has skyrocketed yet average wages have remained relatively stagnant since 1979 while the very rich have reaped all the gains.
+Alex Golembeski Yeah, how come we hear of so many unions in so many other jobs, but I don't hear of any in the games industry?
+Alex Golembeski When you can be tossed out and replaced at the drop of a hat because there are thousands out there desperate for your job, management can treat you like crap. You unionize? They'll scrap the entire team.
The games industry biggest problem is volatility. Basically there are too many games being released per year and a small fraction soak up a huge percentage of the available revenue. Working in gaming means having to constantly look for new jobs as projects end or studios go bust as game under preform. Even if you work for yourself one game with poor sales will often see you being booted from the industry. Working in other programming pursuits mean shorter hours and more pay.
Also most of the time it's just a job, most people in the gaming industry have no input into what their doing or any real interest in the games their making and are just taking home a pay check.
It's like the movie industry - you go project from project rather than having a normal 9-5 job.
I love all the cat smiles in this episode :3
You just described the entire software industry perfectly too.
rather just work by myself
Same, dude. I mean, look at ZUN. This man has churned out 25 fucking games; every single one of them created with hard work, effort, and lots of care.
+Capadoo Bingaling and i know the games are bad or good but fnaf(five nights at freddys)dude made these 4 games on hes own with a 2d engine in the beginning.
+JustDumbToons I would just like too point out fnaf (in my opinion)is shit.
+Afinnb Cquaild the game or the fanbase? You have to admit that how they look is very amazing for one artist
+Michealkolicheal
I am more of a Casual Gamer, but I would think he is more against the Fandom, although I haven't seen much other than over-theorizing and maybe a bit of questionable hype.
I myself thought that Five Nights as Freddy's was made by only a few artists instead of just one.
On another note, I consider myself a Casual Gamer in a different way than most the stereotype. I enjoy Chess, Othello, and other similarly slow paced games. I don't enjoy Candy Crush nor similar titles.
Deus Ex 1942 actually sounds like it could be really fun.
Much of what you said can be also projected upon the rest of the software development world; especially the demos part ;) nice video, thanks!
Love this video, excellent talk
sorry guys, but i really like the artist for this one better than the usual one,not to say that the normal one(s) are bad they are really good(dodges paper balls).
*throws said paper ball* 'That is perfectly ok because it is your oppinion which you have every right to have.'
All you company are belong to us
retro memes
This video is so important, and things have only worsened exponentially since this was made. Jim Sterling has many good videos about the actual Criminal systematic normalized abuse of the industry, which doesn’t only apply to “AAA” companies, but it’s quickly becoming normalized in the Indie scene too, most regrettably.
Such a shame too...
OMG YOU GUYS ARE SO HANDSOME THIS EPISODE
I'm glad that masterpieces like Skyrim didn't forsake features/graphical capabilities/gameplay value for a tacked on multiplayer. I know, stone me for saying it if you will but I'm glad they didn't make Skyrim multiplayer. In the timeframe Bethesda had to make skyrim I'd wager they would have sacrificed a /lot/ of the game in order to tack on a multiplayer to it, and while it wasn't perfect at launch anyways, it was a hell of a lot better than it would have been if MP had been quickly thrown in and lets face it, asking for multiplayer in a game like that (with all of the attention to AI, graphics, and the game experience in general) would have completely destroyed the game and the impact it had on gaming. (let's face it, Skyrim is a true masterpiece of game engineering, let alone purely single player gaming)
RankAndFileGuy
I don't count ESO as an Elder Scrolls game for the most part. To me, it's a first person version of WoW with an Elder Scrolls paintjob.
Even a tacked on, half-assed multiplayer in Skyrim would have been better than the huge moneygrab ESO ended up being. I don't want an ES MMO, I want an ES game but with things like local LAN multiplayer or Online multiplayer so I can just play with some friends, I don't want to pay anything extra, I don't want microtransactions and I don't want randoms.
But I do agree with you, I don't blame Bethesda for ESO though, I blame Zenimax for it. At least if Bethesda had done it, they would have most likely stayed far more true to the name of the Elder Scrolls. Hopefully the next actual ES game will have local and online multiplayer, if not I'll still buy it though, just like I always do.@.@#abusiverelationshipidon'twanttogetoutof
Ant the Gord I have always viewed ESO as existing, obviously for the cash grab of a big mmo, but also for lore reasons, Zenimax wanted an MMO, Bethsoft wanted a way to fill the gaping plot hole in their lore without having to make a shitty elder scrolls game under their name. Basically they figured that if they didn't make the game, their fans would get their plot hole filled either way, if the game is good it's associated with their IP, but if it's bad they can just say, "well it wasnt made by us." I think that's also the excuse they tried to pull with Fallout NV, even though people ended up liking that one better anyway.
Frank Da Tank
I can agree with that but I think it would have just been better to fill the plothole with another elder scrolls game as opposed to this whole big gimmick going on.
Ant the Gord I just don't think it would have worked as well as a single player experience, and they would have to seriously downgrade the graphics because there is no way your fitting the entirety of tamrial with skyrims level of play and graphics and no lag, un less you had a lot of loading screens. I think they should have wrote a novel, or a graphic novel, some kind of expanded universe type thing
Frank Da Tank
No, I agree with that fully. That was not the point I was trying to get across. I'm glad they didn't make Skyrim multiplayer. What I'm saying is it would have been better to make just another singleplayer ES game as opposed to doing all of this BS. I mean, as much as I want to play a game like Skyrim over LAN with a few friends I am willing to have it stay SP if it means the great gameplay I've always loved from Bethesda. (and no microtransactions or monthly fee which I despise with a passion)
Quake 2 on Wii?
Thanks a lot guys. I'm planning to maybe go work in the videogame industry, and this video helped me have an insight^^
this style is beautiful
Game design should not be a "business" it should be a form art and interactivity, it should not be run be greedy billion dollar corporation. This is why I have turned to a lot of indie games, because most of the indie games that a produced today that make it are because the designers aren't int he industry for money, they just want to communicate with people and produce a truly artistic game.
They actually are since the revenue that the games have generated for the indie devs acts as a sort of salary to buy food or in other words, survive. I partially agree with the community interaction and art part, though.
I see your point in that they can be used to make a,living of off, I didn't really think about that. However games should not be created by people that only want to make games for a living, such as the farmville people. What I'm saying is people should be making games for games not for money and not for a business.
*****
I see what you mean as well but let's face it. The employees in these companies just want to make a living. They've always wanted to make games to get money to support their families. If there is a good game, the companies just decided to please customers to keep the customers.
Yes I see your point and have started to convert me haha, but I still feel pretty much the same about games should be a way of communication, and to express art. I'm really glad that we could have a civil conversation about this, rather than abusing each other from behind of keyboards.
*****
Yeah... Me too.
Could you make a reflection video where you compare how things have changed?
Thank you for peeling back the curtain on the perception of what it's like to be working in the game industry, as you shared it's not all nerf gun fights and play time. But am I curious as to the quality that is the end product that is then received by the customer - what quality are they going to be experiencing if a game, it may look good and polished and on a technical level function, but it comes on the foundation of being made by overworked and overstressed and pressured people? It's like we can feel when a chef is in a bad mood via the food that comes our way or when the cashier at the tills just dumps our stuff into the bag - what is coming with these games?
I used to work for an Engineering Firm and the boss would always remind us of how grateful we should be because of the job we had. It can happen in any field, and it's definetly a sign of poor management.
this was quite irritating for me because i am from Australia and it is pronounced 'Bond-eye'
Brisbane (Briz-b'n) = Briz-bain (rhymes with main) Melbourne (Mel-b'n) = Mell-borrn, Moscow (Mos-co) = Moss-Cow.
Welcome to 'Murica.
And foreigners mispronounce American place names. We don't frustrated by it, we just roll with the punches.
6:56 Blender
I love the publisher monster. The little glasses just make him =D
Okay I was liking this channel now I love it. At the moment I am going to school for game design and animation and this is great and informative but I love this channel now becasue if the warhammer 40k episode. Thanks for the video.
I think you should do an episode about Sonic 06 and the consequences of rushed games. If you do, could you please mention me in the video or description with a link to my CZcams Channel?
***** Rushed games are a real problem in the industry.
***** Why how hostility to my idea? It doesn't affect you..........
***** Oh.
***** Well sorry, I posted this a while ago, I now agree that is a problem.
***** Thanks.
Bondi is pronounced Bon-die
As in Bondi beach
These bad conditions has happen with every entertainment industry that's why the sag was first established to protect actors
yeh
Fucking management these days. Good thing we have the SAG!!!!
of all the comments ...
Crem Dela Mem
Really enjoy the visuals on this one .
Moral of the story? Make more indie games!
***** Noooo... Moral of the story: Not Have The Practices In The First Place.
*****
I think the Moral is: "Teamwork is essential. That goes for all. Don't shut yourself out. Don't push others too hard. Don't be a tryant." ;)
No wonder LA Noire seemed so sucky to me.
plzwork100 Dude I loved LA Noire, a bit lacking in game play during the action moments but besides that it was great.
The whole thing was crap to me.
thumbs up to the sponsor. This video is a paragon of the way youtube sponsorships should work!
About halfway through college, I looked into working conditions in the gaming industry and saw how bad it really is. That scared me away from pursuing this career path (but not abandoning my degree) and seeking a close relative that holds my interest. But now this video has me conflicted. Should I continue down the path I am currently on, or should I reconsider the possibility of working on games? You nailed what I learned, the horrible conditions come from unreasonable publishers driving their development studios into the ground.
EA.... Many Publishers have not improved. But that has left room for indie studios to grew to small studios. Any path in the game development world seems to be a rough one.
it describes exactly my working conditions, I am glad that I quited, for being normal and working only 10 hours per day. fuck capitalism
***** yea i deliberately said it...only 10 hours, they required 12 hours, since we are in a third world country in which capitalists are migrating to exploit underpaid labor...yea our world is fucked up.
***** no need to be sorry man its not your fault whatsoever, i do live in Morocco, India is even worst i think, same goes for china, we wish that it is going to change because those things are what causing wars and misery, not to mention the destruction of the environment.
in my opinion being a programmer is a much better job, (they where respected in our facility and working only 8 hours) + its really cool to be a programmer, just saying its your choice in the end and it will depend on your conditions, but i will advice not to make money in your heart but in your hand, because those who love money to death are still working 12-14 hours a day, and loosing their health gradually in the process, be happy...everything else like social status and this bullshit don't matter.
this is the world we live in today. love the art by the way
The constant crunch time, long hours reminided me of working several of my jobs earily in my career in software development. I tried to limit myself to 10 hour days, as I felt my productivity slipping about that point. I gained some perspective on things when, after I had put in 85 hours for a couple of weeks in order to get things done. Management called everyon one in and told us that we were "Fucking up, as we were not putting in enough hours to build a quailty product". As that statement was hitting home to me, I was looking to my right and left and realizing that I had worked the smallest amount of hours compared with the people on my floor (excepting management). I did 2 things, ramped up my job hunt, and cut my working hours back to 50 - 60 hours per week.
Wow, this artist is awesome! Can he be on the show more often?