Is Margaery Tyrell A Political Mastermind, Or Did Game Of Thrones Get Her Character Wrong?
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- Content Of This Video:
00:00 Intro
02:42 GoT Margaery Is Incongruous With ASOIAF
05:22 The POV We See Margaery Through
06:52 Why Trust Cersei's Untrustworthy POV?
12:19 Conclusion
14:01 Outro - Zábava
![🏵️The Costumes of Margaery Tyrell [Updated] (Game of Thrones #3)](/img/n.gif)
Natalie dormer always looks like she knows something you don't.
It's the annoying smirk
@@jostockton. she has a nerve condition in her face that causes her to smile like that but k
We shall get abreast of this issue.
She's got really nice tits. Pretty sure that's why they cast her. I thought she did well. Her death is where the series ended for me
@@Li_Tobler Really?
To be fair, Margaery did have precautions in place to prevent Cersei from getting her arrested. She has a brother in the kingsguard, explicitly stated to play Aemon the Dragonknight to her Queen Naerys. She's surrounded by ladies-in-waiting day and night, so that the only way Cersei can call her virtue into question is to name some of the other ladies as her co-conspirators, thus making powerful enemies of their families as well. Her big mistake was underestimating how self-destructively determined Cersei is to taking her down a peg.
Facts, like I doubt they understood that if Cersei wanted to kill Margaery she'd just kill everyone else in her way first.
Lol with that ladys-in-waiting thing, I heard that in the books, cersei went as far as to think that Margery sleeps with her ladies in waiting since she's with them most of the time😂
@@Janary08 yeah a little -
"Margaery looked very like her brother, the Knight of Flowers. The queen wondered if they had other things in common." (Cersei II AFfC)
but when she's trying to frame Margaery, she relies on men around, and frames the cousins as complicit -
"you must take yourself to the Great Sept of Baelor this very night and speak with the High Septon. When a man's sins are so black, only His High Holiness himself can save him from hell's torments. Tell him how you bedded Margaery and her cousins." (Cersei IX AFfC)
"An anointed knight has sworn upon his sword to having carnal knowledge of her and two of her three cousins. Others have lain with her as well, he says, and names many names of men both great and humble." (Cersei X AFfC)
It may have been Cercei's initial intention to accuse Margaery's of adultery but I never thought she would stop at that. Murder was equally possible. I don't think anyone could have forseen the absolute idiocies Cersei then committed, though. And I don't really find it believable that EVERYONE not killed just acceptsm her blowing up the Sept with all the nobles inside and her crowning herself queen after Tommens death.
@@HillsAliveYT isn’t that the way Dany behaves the ruthlessness it simply covered in self righteousness
One thing I like about Margaery in the show is that it shows she can be a good queen. A manipulative, semi-two-faced queen but a good one who understands that unless you want to lose your head you need to make the people happy which is something Cersei never understood thanks to Tywin's 'kill them all' methods. Honestly, I believe that if she had been allowed to she could've shaped Tommen into a fairly good king given his patience and willingness to listen to others. Unfortunately, Cersei had to interfere.
honestly with a competent king margaery could have been the new queen alysanne
@@durrangodsgrief6503 I completely agree to that.
Totes, and in the end I think they dropped the ball with the concept that wanting power isn't exclusive to someone who is bad or brutal, and not wanting power isn't necessarily a virtue. Margaery was at least a good example of that.
She's a Rose of Highgarden, she knows how important is to feed the working bees
In the words of George it was not meant to be
Cersei has the "monster in-law" personality you see irl too, a narcissistic woman unable to let go of her sons, she has also split up her sons into the ideal perfect Joffrey and the mediocre, annoying Tommen, it's what narcissistic parents really do, superb and realistic writing.
Yeah, Cersei really is something else
Yeah, but let's not act like Robert didn't play a giant part in how the boys turned out too.😊
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy Yeah, unfortunately I'm speaking from experience myself, me and my sister too 😔
Father-in-laws can be the same way. but yeah you do have a point.
it is also tragic how cersei pushed her daughter aside, but brought up her sons. kinda playing in the same personality.
I always saw Margaery as a young Olenna. She’s a protege, given the nature of House Tyrell she’ll of course inherit Olenna’s position as de facto ruler of the house. But as you pointed out, she is still a teenager. There’s no way she can match the decades of experience, political and life that Olenna has lived to make her as politically astute as she is. I think it’s telling that Cersei hyper focused on Margaery but seemed unable if not unwilling to go after someone like Olenna. She knows Olenna is bigger than she lets on but doesn’t seem capable of challenging her without also harming herself.
She can't match the experience, and again given that she's a teenager, her older family members probably aren't looping her in on ALL of the dirty family secrets and plots yet, they're probably just preparing her for the time where she will be included in the real game playing.
Yes, strange how Cersei doesn't even really seem to be able to see the threat that Oleanna poses although the older woman is clearly very intelligent, shrewd and able and willing to put up a fight. Margaery's was clever, too but she was no match for her grandmother.
Maybe it is not just the narcissim and paranoia but also Cersei's massive sense of entitlement that makes her target foes that are imaginery only and renders her blind to real dangers like empowering the Sparrow. After all, if Margaery's brother could be done in for immoral conduct - then Cersei *INEVITABLY* had to be next!
I think Cersei was so focused on Margaery because of her prophecy. A younger more beautiful woman was supposed to come and cast her down and take all that she holds dear. So I think that's the reason why she just didn't seem to see anyone else but Margaery as a threat.
Guys, these books were written by a man. Of course Cersei would obsess over a younger, more beautiful girl. Of course her prophecy would be centered around how materialistic, duplicitous, mercurial, and narcissistic she is. Of course she wouldn't see Olenna as a real threat.
People act like these books are Feminist, but they really aren't. 🙄
@@NextToToddliness Oh ffs. Because as we all know materialistic, duplicitous, mercurial, and narcissistic women can't possibly exist? GRRM writes a wide variety of different male and female characters. He also wrote honorable, upright and heroic female characters like Brienne, empathetic and kindhearted ones like Sansa or strong and capable leaders like Daenerys. Idc about wether these books are "feminist", but the idea that GRRM because he is a man created a negative or biased portrayal of women because of this one female character with very negative traits (when there are plenty similar male characters too) is just disingenious.
One of my favourite characters/houses. I like how Margaery shows a more “soft power” through her emotional intelligence, and cunning, while never stooping to brutal methods like so many others in this world. She was cunning and craved power, but I believe she was a genuinely good person and one of the few political characters in the show who ever cared for the downtrodden smallfolk.
she doesn't cared for the smallfolk imo. She just like to be loved by them
I think it's very debatable if Margaery actually cared for the downtrodden smallfolk. I think she was a competent queen who understood her assignment. She's like a good student, she knew how to seduce and understood how to do a degree of virtue signaling, and a lot of that is credit to Dormers' acting. But she also knew she had to get pregnant by her gay king. In a way, I think she was just really well educated by Olenna. We see so many of the kings and queens doing politics together that they seem completely ignorant over the fact that they were supposed to lead their people. Whoever was King was a product of who is good representation of flawless leadership when no one uses their wisdom to actually care for their people. It's like they're too busy being celebrities, and getting into petty wars. Margaery doesn't seem to see her people as truly her equal, but she understands that she has to act like that to be a good queen, which does effectively make her a good queen. Compare to any of the leaders I've seen on the show, I feel like she is outstanding.
@@corneliahanimann2173 I was interested until you said "gay". What makes him gay? Is there any evidence that he is gay?
@@Aurora-if9uz I figure the thing where he casually has sex with her brother is quite gay...
Or do you disagree with the use of the word gay itself? I can change that of course.
Or maybe I misunderstand something here too. Feel free to critisize me on these things 😊
@@Aurora-if9uz the scene I was most interested in pointing out is when she suggests to him that he needs to get her pregnant, basically for political reasons, she is not at all bothered that her husband is sleeping with her brother and instead says they can do it from the back if it helps. Like, just her handling of her husbands sexuality and also understanding of the urgency of the political situation.
Also I forgot his name, which is why I referred to him ss the gay king, because that id pretty much all I remember about him.
Natalie Dormer could play a background extra and still win an Emmy.
It took my years to realise she also played Cressida in Hunger Games: Mockingjay
Yes, while I feel iffy about the changes they made to the character on GoT there is no denying that she absolutely NAILED what D&D were going for with Margaery.
She also played Anne Boleyn in The Tudors in the first two seasons.
@@Outlaw8908 And Irene Adler in Elementary.
I think the interesting thing about Margaery in the show is that she is one of the best generators of soft power in the story. Befriending Sansa; soft power generation. Flirting with Joffrey and Tommen: soft power generation. Visiting the orphanage and giving them toys: soft power generation. Learning the scriptures of the Faith of the seven and constantly quoting them to the faith militant, etc.
Most other players use hard power or manipulation or threats but Margaery derives her power from her social skills and getting people to root for her.
I'd say Margaery is predominately still a piece being moved around the board by more powerful and experienced players. She's essentially been training all her life for the big leagues and has only just begun her rookie season in King's Landing. She's got a lot of potential but, sadly, all the preparedness in the world isn't going to be enough to get her through hurricane Cersei alive. If Winds ever makes it to the shelves I'd wager that the poor girl's doomed.
Exactly, she doesn't see Cersei's betrayal coming because it's completely nonsensical if you don't know that Cersei is unhinged and has spent her entire life expecting the new queen to destroy it, and House Tyrell didn't understand what Cersei was like so they didn't fully grasp that they were throwing Margaery in at the deep end and that Cersei would absolutely torch their very valuable, literally Lannister-saving alliance if it meant getting what she wanted.
@@HillsAliveYT The Tyrell's play for the throne will unfortunately, and very likely, cost their family dearly in the end. If Cersei's going down, she'll make damn sure to take as many of the Tyrells down with her.
She just underestimated Cersei's twisted moronnery.
@@TheGoodLuc - Yes, then again who knew about the prophecy about the younger and more beautiful woman taking her place? And how that had warped Cersei's mind from her teen ages on?! Everyone involved must have realised that Cersei was a bad person but nobody but Tyrion understood the abyss that was her mind. Oleanna was already unprepared and mind-boggled by the foolishness of elevating the Sparrow. However, remembering when Margaery tried to play nicely and call Cersei her sister and how Cersei reacted... That should have been a dead ringer for the Tyrells.
Who Margaery is and would become is something I guess we will never know. She’s like a flowering plant that needs something to support it, then it takes that shape and makes it seem beautiful. But she always been cut back and torn down, she never gets the chance to be nurtured in clean soil and air. Cersei is going to burn her to her roots.
you're right that we only really get 2 perspectives on Margaery... (though Catelyn, Tyrion and Kevan think about her, nothing they say is very ground-breaking), there's one additional quote about her that's always stood out to me as its a brief glimpse at a third perspective on her:
"She'll keep her queenly crown and her maidenhead, neither of which she especially wants" (Sansa VI ASOS)
yes, its LF the Lying Liar saying it, but if this is accurate, it adds an extra layer of tragedy to Marge's story? like, Sansa sees a kind, clever and confident older girl and friend whose kinda the perfect queen. Cersei sees a scheming rival trying to steal her power and her son. but if she's actually a girl who doesn't want to be where she is in society, but has no choice in the matter so she's just trying to make the best of it? and if she ends up dying to prevent her from keeping a crown she doesn't want?
truly, the system is the real villain in asoiaf.
I would actually love that tragic take.
@@HillsAliveYT so she’s like Alicent
Maybe she'd be more content as a Lady of another major house rather than a grand position like being Queen. And with a partner that would like to enjoy a decent rule with a partner who wouldn't mind just having fun every now and then... fun in general as well as in bed, perhaps 🤭.
@@wolfsbanealphas617
Yeah, she reminds me of Alicent, perhaps a bit less religous and a little more cunning in terms of secrecy but aside from that, very similar.
Being a powerful Lady (but not as large as being Queen) and having a good, well adjusted husband to help justly rule over some smallfolk would've been ideal. Being Queen is a daunting task, as is King, to those who truly care for ruling.
LF is a lying liar with very good insight into other people's personalities and motivations, if not his own.
Natalie Dormer has said that she wanted to portray through this character what it would look like for a good person to be in that world and thrive in it, and I think she succeeded even though it's a very intricate and nuanced idea. Margaery WAS indeed very two-faced and manipulative, yet somehow also seemed genuinely caring and good hearted, which made her really stand out among all the players in the court. Maybe I'm seeing it through rose-tinted glasses (no pun intended), but I thought the Tyrells were a great addition to the show for this reason: they are the middle ground between the Starks and the Lannisters, they are warm and have a tight-knit family, they aren't cruel and hateful like the Lannisters but they're also not as naive as the Starks. In the end, they lost because their only weapon was soft power, and they were unable to go on the offensive when they needed to.
They lost cause the writer forgot their only weapon was very much not just soft power.
the Tyrell’s have the biggest army overall even bigger then dany’s and have competent commanders and soldiers to go with it, they have the strongest and biggest navy at their disposal and if in need they are the second richest house in the continent if not first, most importantly they pretty much control the provisions of the entire continent.
they are very much OP with their only main issue being that their control over the reach is fragile in comparison to the stark over the north and lannisters over the westerland, but that’s why even with all those strength they made sure that soft power was their main one.
Truly the only things that can actually explain their demise in the show is that the writers said so, none of the excuses they used in the show had any logic behind them, not actual real world logic, not book logic, not even show logic
@@thngvbts5182 I mean, agree 100% when it comes to the show being trash. I think they just sweeped the Tyrells under the rug so as to have less character arcs to resolve in the end, which is just terrible and indicative of how low the show fell.
However, since ASOIAF is thematically about power, I think it's cool to look at the houses from the perspective of the themes they represent. The starks represent themes of power mixing with family and honor (wolves and packs and whatnot), while the Lannisters represent pride and cunning (lions, kings of the jungle). The Targaryens represent power through sheer force and terror (dragons, fire, etc). The Tyrells are roses: beautiful and gentle yet with an indirect, underhanded strength. They don't overpower or destroy their enemies, but grow insidiously all around them until they're too deeply rooted to remove.
So while on paper they have the bigger numbers, I wouldn't say their soldiers are established as strong because that's not the theme of the house. They are "soft" compared to the other houses and usually pick the options that allow them to avoid fighting, and the men are portrayed as gentle, artistic and a little airheaded while the women uphold the house's status through intrigue and politics. That's what I mean by "soft power", their power is being likeable, diplomatic and using the fact that they are the "breadbasket of the seven kingdoms" to basically have everyone wanting to be on their good side, but they aren't respected because, when push comes to shove, they're just delicate flowers among lions and direwolves.
Of course, as I said, this is purely my personal read from a thematic perspective. I still believe the books will follow a similar path (if they ever come out), but even then, while themes are good and all, the story needs to make practical sense and in the show, it didn't. So I agree with you
So many Margaery scenes give me such bad bi panic lmao
The queer undertones were not subtle.
@@HillsAliveYT I almost agree with you. To me, GoT 6-10 is the second best episode of TV ever. The best is Buffy 6-7. What other tv series has an episode that is re-enacted in real life, over and over, thousands of times.
@@RLucas3000and 6-9
@@HillsAliveYT not queer. Bi.
@@peacebuddha96 queer is an umbrella term
So Show Margaery is a brilliant chess master, while Book Margaery is a very charismatic pawn who simply understands her role? Fascinating, I always learn something new from your videos. Now I would have liked to see a version that was closer to the book portrayed onscreen, as awesome as Show Margaery was, because they sound like very different characters.
I always thought that maybe the show writers saw that book!margaery while still a pawn has the potential to become a great player, like olenna, in the future and perhaps just wanted to fastrack that for whatever reason (maybe because it's more interesting seeing game player machinations rather than pawns being moved around the board regardless of their own wishes)
I'd like to imagine book Marge as book Sansa, someone slowly learning the ropes and know her place but also pushing the boundaries in her own little ways.
She definitely wasn't a genius in the show lol she and Olenna straight up insult Cersei to her face.
@@jostockton. Cersei does that as well tho, she openly says to Margaery that she’ll have her strangled in her sleep. Bit stupid really bc there’s no way she’d ever get away with saying that
@@jostockton. You Cersei fanboys never fail to make me laugh.
Cersei is leagues below Olenna or Margaery
I can already smell your reply „how comes she killed them and survived longer than them“
Which just goes to show that you know even less than it appeared at first.
The smartest and best players don’t always get to the end. Look at Tywin. He’s very good at the game and certainly much better than Cersei, yet he died before her. Doesn’t mean she’s better.
Basically, Sansa thinks Margaery is Yue and Cersei thinks she is Azula. But she is actually just Asami.
Haha, excellent analogy 😂
You raised a great point about parents not preparing their kids
Yeah I get that they may have assumed they had more time but Jesus Christ, it's like not teaching your kid to read until they're 15-level failure to plan.
@@HillsAliveYT also want to point out that it’s not as though they were wrapped up in cotton wool like it’s generally assumed. All the children are expected to play into their specific gender roles to the point of abuse- Ned and Catelyn’s fixation on raising ‘tough’ sons all as potential wardens of the North suggests that they were actually very involved in making sure they were prepared- they were just only prepared for what their roles would be in the North. I don’t think Ned and Catelyn ever expected to be dealing with anyone outside of the North. I think Ned kind of retired in a sense after the sacking of King’s Landing. No more Game of Thrones for the Starks- or so he thought. This was probably also done in effort to keep Jon safe, for obvious reasons. I don’t think the Starks thought scheming was unnecessary for children to know, it was just unnecessary for _their_ children to know. You could definitely say that the girls were undereducated, but I would say that’s more part and parcel of them being girls than anything else. Sansa was taught how to be the perfect Nothern noble lady, and this also allowed her to keep her innocence for the time being. This just happened to be so drastically different from being a Southern noble. Ned still doesn’t explain anything to her because he’s not convinced that she was ever going to marry Joffrey anyway. As soon as he gets to King’s Landing, he’s already thinking about how to get his daughters away from there. So, the only lesson he ever teaches her is that loyalty to the crown comes before family loyalty, which she then takes to heart and ends up being his downfall (but tbh I think Varys’s spies would have resulted in the same thing anyway; he seemed to be aware of the argument Ned had with Sansa that had clued him in on what Cersei and Jaime had been up to “wisdom oft comes from the mouths of babes.”)
I love her portrayal in GOT because I genuinely couldn’t tell if she was just acting. How she seems to care for all classes of folk, not afraid to frequent Flea Bottom. Natalie’s smile had to partially contribute to her characterization haha. A true smile but also a smirk. She seemed so genuine and selfless, but also like she understood how to play the game and did it well. She kept me guessing and I still don’t know how to feel, especially with her and Tommen. Her care for him seemed real. Obviously ew young boy and older woman but the rest of their bond was sweet. A mother figure unintentionally.
This will not do, see to it that that which will not do, won't do and will never
Most of GOT have older men and young girl. Don’t see how this is much different
Noooo if ifs and buts were saucers and cups then I'd be mad as a hatter
@@hi-ls6lt Didn’t ask
@@hi-ls6lt Because you are either dumb or wilfully ignorant , thats why you dont see it.
But at the risk of stating the obvious: even if you do not care for biology because you are a modern enlightened person who sees everyones as being the same, in medieval times they were more practical:
women were ideally married in their teens because thats when they were the most fertile and dying in labor was a big risk even if you were a noble so this is why it typically women in their 30s were not the most desirable of matches unless they had a really nice title associated with them.
By contrast at that age since they were the expendable gender most teenage boys were expected to go die in wars or make a name for themselves somehow, and were only able to find marriages much later in life once they were “worthy” of it,. Since men did not have to fear dying in childbirth and their biological clocks gave them far more leeway in their ability to sire offspring, they can afford it.
Do you see now how it works differently for men and women? Do you see now why a young man marrying an older women at the end of her fertility window in her 30s is not at all the same thing as a young woman marrying an older dude in his 30s or even more?
Biology doesnt give 2 fucks about our fancy morals and i cant believe i had to rant about this to explain to you what should be common sense.
Margaery played the game and played it so well. She was smart and beautiful. Like she was the perfect female protagonist. She wasn’t a Mary Sue nor was she a Jezibel either. She at least to me she was the type of female character writers aspire to write. Also the character didn’t have plot armor. Her undoing was actually underestimated just how far someone would go. Like she felt real.
She was quite the Jezebel. Just like her grandmother.
@@saymyname2417
Well, Olenna did sleep with Lord Tyrell to get him to marry her yes, but aside from that particular case, she wasn't an overly Jezebel-like figure such as the likes of Rhaenyra in HotD.
That said, I haven't read the books so, If I'm wrong or missing anything, by all means, let me know and I'll consider it
Yeah, she was a good character in the show, a shame she died tbh. A better life as another Lady of the Realm (or the Reach) maybe that would've been nice instead if her doomed time as queen
@@thalmoragent9344 - Yes, you're right there. I thought of the times Margaery seduced both Joff and Tomen to get onto the throne. But Oleanna basically did they same thing.
Many women in this series have something slutty or even devious about them. For the nature of these books Margaery was nothing out of the ordinary for sure.
In the books, Margaery is just a pawn, albeit one that is learning every day and has great potential to be a player. In the show she is everything Cersei believes her to be, except possibly the YMBQ. That said, Cersei was never allowed to have anything other than hammers in her life. Tywin gave her chests and chests of gold plated hammers, but punished her if she reached for a saw or a screwdriver from the time she was a child. Even Tyrion was given a better education than her and Tywin hated Tyrion. He at least saw Cersei as useful. Cersei is right in that Westeros hands Tyrion any tool he likes just because he has a cock and the name Lannister behind him. Had she been permitted to play with other tools the way Margaery was, she might well have been as good, if not a better player than her, seeing as she had more than three extra years on Margaery when she became queen, and neurologically those years are vital when it comes to scheming.
Exactly! This is why I generally defend Cersei's attempts at strategy because she does massively screw up sometimes but most people forget that basically everything she has learned about politics and tactics has been from observation of others alone. If she had actually been educated on how politics worked or been treated as anything other than a pawn by Tywin I think she probably would have been much more skilled.
@@HillsAliveYT Is "observation of others" not how Westerosi education of politics works usually though? That is certainly how Robb and Jon were raised into lordly duties and also how Rhaenyra was educated - being her father´s cupbearer. If anything Cersei´s problem was that with her mother dead there was no female authority figure that she could observe and learn from. IMO she is trying to copy what she thinks Tywin would do but it fails for her because she does not have his tools: blowing up the sept = red wedding.
@@HillsAliveYT I agree wholeheartedly and I do appreciate the fact that cersei may not be the smartest but she’s bold and is determined in getting what she wants in the short time regardless.
@@HillsAliveYT That is an interesting viewpoint. Maybe Cersei was treated as she wasn't smart enough to even learn so was constantly overlooked.
@@Mongan01 I am sure Robb and Jon also were told how things work, or reasons behind certain actions. yes, she watched the men discuss, and then her father explained... agree about tywin and cersei, she doesn't get to see his other actions he does to mitigate the damage, and falls.
I've never understood why people dismiss Cercei's cunning. She IS a cunning manipulator. Her flaws that limit that are her paranoia, jealousy, and her volatility. She can make amazing plans quite fast, and is skilled at manipulating people, but she is a VERY short term planner. Her scope is always in a very narrow field around her, because she always feels like someone is trying to sabotage her specifically, and yet as pointed out, always seems to be focused in the wrong direction while others ARE actually playing her.
I agree wholeheartedly. Cersei is a good short term manipulator and her best actions was by her illegitimate kids even through that end up in war and causing her to lose all her children but the fact that it took a long time to actually question their legitimacy because of the fact that Cersei had them with Jamie(had the cousin for a backup plan just in case Jamie didn’t want to complete the task) so she can say that the kids inherited her traits more by recessive traits from both father and mother (Robert himself say that there are blondes in his bloodline once I believed) along with the fact that she did became pregnant with Robert’s kids but make sure that they wasn’t going to make it to full term to show that they are trying and that it wasn’t working out. See she had a lot of potential but she did focused on the wrong people(like Margaery) I would be focused on olenna because she is the true power of the tyrells and she will not hesitate to do what is needed to make sure that her family is good in the end. I never understand how she not once thought that maybe olenna may had something to do with joffery’s death. Lol
@@laynasia2711 Yes, thats the issue. As you said Cersei is a short-term manipulator. She only cares about today, and do not think about tomorrow. Hence , in the long run, she does more harm than good. Thats why she is not a "cunning" manipulator. You can't call that cunning, its just plain stupid. She is too narrow sighted. If your actions accomplishes your current objectives but strangles you tomorrow , you are not a genius , you are a fool.
...but she's not cunning. Cerceil is powerful & addictive 2 having & using it. Think of Cercei like a wolf that is powerful & over-hunts their living area. At least the wolf is smart enough 2 move. Cercei would demand more prey.
Yeah Cercei seems to me like some one thinks she is cunning, but isn't (perhaps because her dad is).
Happy to be proven wrong!
@@SamuelRoot I suppose it's a matter of how you define cunning. To me it's a sort of inteligence, the ability to put plans into action and be socially manipulative. But that's where her brand of cunning ends, where as others like Tyrion (While he absolutely has massive blind spots) are much better at reading people and anticipating how they'll act and what they want, so plans tend to work out more in the long term.
But she absolutely thinks she's far more clever than she is.
I really liked Dormer in the Tudors too. She absolutely looks like a Diana Rigg when she was younger.
Natalie was my first girl crush. I identity as a completely straight woman, but my god she’s beautiful.
The similarity is uncanny
@@Macabremadame that she is, she could’ve been a Victoria’s Secret model possibly if she wanted to.
12:19 At the very least, we deserve some Tyrell POVs in *_ASOIAF,_* even if it's not Margaery. It would be so unfair if we didn't. When I first read the books, by the 2nd novel I had wrapped my mind around the fact that there are 7 Great Houses, and that it would make no sense if only some of them were involved throughout the story, and not all. By the time we got multiple Greyjoy & Martell POVs, it was a forgone conclusion fo me that we had to have Tyrell POVs at some point. It makes no sense to leave them out.
Maybe a Wilas or Garlan POV. Please not an pro-/epilogue.
@@nunyabiznes33 Agreed! We all know being an epilogue POV spells doom for that character. How would you feel if we had en prologue or epilogue with Leo Tyrell. Since he's not that likeable, I wouldn't mind. But it would bother me if Leo was the main Tyler POV in the novels. I don't want a cousin. I want Margaery, one of her siblings, or Olenna.
Yeah totes, obviously shit is getting down to the wire so it's a toss up as to whether or not it will happen, but it is strange that we haven't gotten any Tyrell POVs at all.
@@Mic-Mak yeah, fcuk Leo. We need a better POV, like Garlan to see the battles being fought against the remaining Stannis loyalists or Wilas so we know how exactly they are preparing for the impending Ironborn assault.
I’m still pissed the show got rid of Willas and Garland.
The funny thing about Cersei is that she has an extremely simplistic idea of what power is: she thinks that because she is a Lannister and the queen, she just has power, and people of lower status are just there to serve her. In her mind, status and power are the same thing.
Because of this, people of lower status (like Taena, Aurane, the High Sparrow) can easily manipulate Cersei for their own ends and get the better of her, because Cersei does not believe those low-status people could ever be a threat to her, making her blind to their machinations.
But because Margaery is the only one of equal status to Cersei, being of another great house and a queen as well, it's Margaery she fears as a potential rival. So Cersei is constantly paranoid of Margaery hatching devious plots against her, even though when you look at what actually happens, Margaery really isn't doing much against her, apart from being a bit insolent at times.
So Margaery is not, as far as we know, a political mastermind. Cersei is just convinced that she must be one, because of Margaery's high status. At the same time, Cersei is surrounded by other people who ARE politically savvy and quite dangerous, but Cersei doesn't realize it because they are of lower status than her. It all leads back to Cersei's complete cluelessness regarding what power is, and how it works.
(This, by the way, is why she still managed to be a decent opponent of Tyrion in book 2, because she saw Tyrion, as acting Hand and a Lannister, as equal status, and for that reason was constantly wary of his plots against her, so she couldn't easily be surprised by him like she was surprised by people like Aurane or the High Sparrow)
I think both outcomes are cool. Of course, I adore the crowned mastermind quite literally killing the Lannister’s with kindness. The Reach seems to be way more politically savvy, so the idea that they just know how all available players can fit perfectly for action, regardless of gender, is really interesting compared to other regions like the North, who function on more traditional terms. But there is something absolutely hilarious about Cersei seeing ANY (any) teenage girl and instantly assuming they’re satan incarnate. 10/10, top tier comedy, would read/watch again for that.
LOL yes, while I actually think show!Cersei improved on book!Cersei in many ways I'm bummed that we didn't get to really see how unhinged and hilarious it is for a 30-something woman to presume every 12+ year old girl she meets is her mortal enemy.
@@HillsAliveYT yes!! We deserve complex lunatics on screen!! Make people almost sympathise with the dynamic past of a woman who has a chronic fear of preteens. Cersei can do both, I know it
@@HillsAliveYT To be fair, Cersei was a murderous child. She thinks of every young girl as a version of herself.
@@stacywhisenant6242 fr
Yes the Reach is way more politically savvy than the rest of the kingdoms. Like the Hightowers, Tyrells, Tarlys, and many more houses come from there. They always seem to be in the middle of all the schemes going on in Westeros.
Margaery is pretty good at her job as queen consort. And if Taena is to be believed, she knows the value of having information sources. With her excitement on Cersei having Taena as a companion, she could also just be excited to have a mutual friend with her mother-in-law. She doesn’t really scheme.
The most outwardly anti-Cersei thing she does is tell Tommen to join small council meetings and sit the iron throne. And that isn’t even really anti-Cersei; it’s Tommen’s duty to learn to rule.
Margaery tries her best to work with Cersei rather than against her, because she’s probably been taught that infighting can weaken a noble house. She simply doesn’t see Cersei as an enemy.
I agree wholeheartedly and underestimating Cersei(not seeing her as an enemy) was her downfall because Cersei’s crazy lol and she had her eyes set on her since the beginning so regardless her best chances of actually being a queen for a long period of time and stay alive was to start to view cersei as an enemy and got rid of her.
People seriously think Margaery is blind to Ceraei's malevolence? I doubt that...
Always loved the Tyrells. Of all the major families in Westeros, they and the Starks are the only ones that seems remotely emotionally funcional. They are loving and caring for each other and they are largely good people. They just happen to know that a certain level of political deception and ruthlessness is needed in order to survive in Westeros. They are basically smart Starks.
Yeah I've always liked them for similar reasons as well, I like seeing characters who are good political movers but who are also a real family that loves each other and aren't like, evil.
@@HillsAliveYT I'm with you. That is why, if I had to choose to be born in a Westerosi family, Tyrell it would be. Because I know I wouldn't be abuse or treated like a disposable pawn, would actually have a very comfortable life and loving family, and would actually be educated on the ways of yhe realm.
@@JoaoPedro-gc8mw LOL same, like living in a beatiful flowery palace with a nice family who doesn't treat women like garbage? Sign me tf up.
@@HillsAliveYT nor trains them into killers as tools for vengeance
I've always been fascinated with Dorne. It's the only kingdom in Westeros that didn't bend to the Targaryans. It's also a society that does not discriminate against women, nor do they demand that people be married. And they appreciate the finer things in life: food, wine, art, sport, water gardens, and sex. Sounds like heaven to me.
3:36 This why animation is such a powerful and underestimated medium for adaptation, because child characters are actually children, and often played by adults who give them better justice. *Natalie Dormer* absolutely crushed it as Margaery but her character was aged up, which I appreciate because I generally don't find 20-year-olds playing high-schoolers very convincing, even if they look younger. No matter how good the actors are, most of the time the characters they play don't come across the age they are supposed to be. At least to me.
This is one of the major reasons I was disappointed by *_Judas & the Black Messiah._* The real *Fred Hampton* was 21 when he was assassinated. The fact that he was such a political force to be reckoned with as such an innocent age is so fascinating and tragic at the same time. *Bill O'Neil,* the FBI informant who was forced to spy on *Hampton,* was a year younger. *Daniel Kaluuya* and *LaKeith Stanfield* are fantastic actors, but they were way too old to play these political figures. Their robbed innocent youth is a huge part of their story as far as I'm concerned, and the film totally missed that.
It's the same with *_ASOIAF._* *Richard Madden* is a brilliant actor. Way better than *Kit Harington.* But Robb being King and off to war at 14 adds more to his character than if he was in his 20s. I really hope that one day we get a faithful adaptation of *_ASOIAF_* in animation with a huge, expensive budget, and where the characters are the same age. I want to see a style that is similar to much of the fan art we've seen. The only thing I can think of that wouldn't be doable is sex and nudity scenes with non-adult characters. They'd have to be implied, because even if they wouldn't involve real live actors, it would still feel super creepy.
Maybe an anime on the level of Beserk?
@@JosephAvenetti To be clear, I'm speaking specifically of sex scenes with non-adult characters. I think they can be implied, like Sansa's r*ape scene in *_GoT._* Even if the sex scenes are consensual and non-violent, I think it would be better if they were implied.
I don't know if you've read *_ASOIAF,_* but I have noticed that the worst acts of sexual violence happen off page. We don't witness them. They are either implied, like when Theon is forced to abuse Jeyne, or they are recounted by other characters. Like in Harrenhal, when Arya hears a guy bragging about r*aping a little girl in front of her father and brother. We don't witness those as the reader, and I thank God for that.
Those implied acts of sexual violence still have a powerful effect on th reader, even though they are not explicit.
@@annieandelsieofarendelle3294 Never watched or read *_Beserk,_* but not long ago, I watched *Comic Book Girl 19* do a review of it, comparing it to *_HotD,_* and arguing why it's so much better than *_HotD._* You should check it out, it's wonderful!
That said, as much as I love anime, I'm not particularly enamored with the idea of adapting *_ASOIAF_* in that style for various reasons. Firstly, because I love a lot of art we've seen of *_ASOIAF,_* and it looks nothing like anime. Yes, I know there's also anime inspired art of *_ASOIAF,_* it looks cool, but it's not what I imagine for an adaptation, partly because their tone is a little bit cartoony.
A lot of the *_ASOIAF_* are look like immaculate paintings, and it's the kind of rich details I'd like to see in an animated adaptation. Basically, a style that we've probably never seen before in animation. I want to see a ton of money thrown at it so that it looks amazing.
When it comes to Western animation on TV, I often find that no matter how great the story is, the animation is unimpressive. I think it is partly because it's too expensive to make it look like a cinema.
But also, I came to the conclusion that for TV animation works best when it is cartoony, I find that the movements and expressions flow much more fluidly when it's cartoony.
Which isn't to say that I only want to see cartoony animation on TV, but that for non cartoony animation to impress me, technically, it needs to be excellent, ie a lot of money must have been put into it.
Lastly, I'm not trying to be controversial, but I'm one of those people that firmly believes that anime is Japanese animation primarily targeted at a Japanese audience.
As far as I'm concerned, Netflix and other streaming services have diluted the definition of what anime is. Not because I think their shows aren't good. There's nothing wrong with American animation that is inspired by anime. But you can't call it anime, because it's not. That's just me.
4:26 There is no doubt that Ned's children were less prepared for the real world than the Tyrell children. However, *_do you think it would be fair to say that however unprepared the Stark children were, they were at least marginally better prepared for life in the North?_* In both books and show the audience is reminded numerous times of how different the North is compared to the other kingdoms. Although I don't doubt that the Tyrells would navigate Northern politics better than the Stark can handle Southern politics, I still suspect it would be a much harder challenge for them. *_Am I wrong?_*
They did a great job in The North but that's just the point: the true powers do not sit in The North nor do they origin from there. They have totally opposite mindsets.
And once the Starks are confronted with forces that think, feel and act differently things go terribly wrong.
The Manderlys prove that southerners do better going north than northerners going south.
@@nunyabiznes33 That's not really a good example. The Manderlys are essentially Northerners now, even if they kept their faith. They settled in the North and have been there for centuries. They didn't manipulate their way into the North.
They were desperate, were sheltered by the Starks and have been eternally grateful and loyal for it ever since. That speaks to the character of the Starks too.
The fact that they are the richest house in the North is a testament to their prowess, but they've been there for so long. It's not the same a Southern Lord coming to the North for the first time and trying to make it there.
I wouldn't say they were particularly well prepared for that either. A lot of Robb's struggles was trying to get control of his bannermen and he lacked any kind of previous relationship with them at all. Bran also made mistakes but he's what 8 in the books I wouldn't judge him for them.
14:02 It's really hard to answer your question. I really don't know. Margaery had an active role in playing Sansa so she has some cunning, but it's really difficult to say. In the books, when Cersei has Margaery imprisoned and goes to visit her, it's one of the first time we see her be without any filter of courtesy. Although Asha Greyjoy is slightly older than Margaery do you think she would fair better than her if she was put in that situation? Asha is also very smart, but she still gets outmanoeuvred by the men in her family. Obviously. House Greyjoy doesn't command the same respect as House Tyrell, so Asha would be treated radically different than Margaery in King's Landing, even if they had identical personalities.
You've described House Lannister & House Tyrell as pseudo-allies. No matter how much they may dislike each other, they understand that they are kinda forced to be allies if they want to achieve their respective goals. All the members of House Tyrell we meet understand this, and so do Tywin, Jaime, and Tyrion. Cersei is the only Lannister who doesn't seem to fully appreciate the importance and delicacy of that relationship, hence her recklessness.
I really don't know how to answer your question. I guess we'll have to wait for the Winds to find out. And I hope we do. In final thoughts, I hope Margaery doesn't die. I'd love for Sansa to play a role in saving her so that we can have an unfiltered conversation between the two characters. However that's highly unlikely, but one can hope.
I'd say something that women from house Tyrell have that might give them extra power and respect is that they come from arguably greater houses in the Reach than Tyrell such as Florent, Redwyne, or Hightower.
On a different note, it was definitely normal for noble teens to already be involved in the political intrigues of the court. After all, a teen did win the bloodiest battle ever fought on English soil and become King during the Wars of the Roses. I wouldn't underestimate Margaery or Sansa (Especially) for being teens because at least they are always able to see the impacts-short term and long term-of major actions made by characters in the series which is still way better than Cersei. Cersei's biggest flaw is that she always wants, and is effective at getting, whatever satisfies her in the moment but can't foresee the impacts in the long run. There is no patient strategy with her. Letting Joffrey do what he wanted, giving the faith power, and blowing up the sept are just three examples. He became an uncontrollable monster, the faith took control, and she caused the death of the King, her only remaining child.
Yeah totes, the Tyrells are pretty good at making matches with more prestigious houses via women, I mean Alerie is a Hightower and Olenna is a Redwyne and those are really the heaviest hitters in the Reach.
People always seems to bring up the Tyrell week claim while forgetting that they spent the last 300 years marring anyone with a better claim and bloodline
@@thngvbts5182 Exactly, are the Tyrells actually still viewed as lowly "upjumped" stewards in the present timeline? It's been 300 years, plenty of Hightower, Redwyne and Florent blood is flowing through their views. Now they are even vying for the throne. It seems to me the Tyrells have a solid grip on the reach and all their vassals at this point.
As someone who hasn't read the books but knows of the Lore a bit, Margaery was a favorite of mine in GoT.
A queen like that with tact and intelligence was something I think Westeros really needed. Combine that with a King like Tommen who would've done well with Margaery at his side, that could've led to a decent reign
She kinda makes me think of Alicent in a way, albeit not as religious but a bit more tact in some cunning ways. That said, they probably both would like a decent, well adjusted husband and be a Lady of the Realm, but not necessarily as Queen. Perhaps as a Lady of a Major house that they could rule well and justly, live comfortably, and have some fun every now and then.
Her & alicent in same sentence? They aren't similar at all. Margery actually had brains & cunningness, alicent is just a clueless Karen that does whatever her father tells her to & then wonders why things happened the way they did. (I'm talking about show alicent , book alicent is a totally different character).
Margery was one of my favorite characters and one of the best characters on the show. She was a strong female character who was feminine, smart, capable, and a good person. They didn't try to make her a 'good character' by turning her into a man' or reducing her to tried tropes of 'rape turns women into badasses.'
If the show's Margery is different than the book's Margery... then the book got the character 'wrong'
Moreover , she is the only one who plays the game of thrones and did not shed blood .
Margaery is bad enough of a person to succeed in this world but good enough to actually do a good job as well
I loved her portrayal on the show, you never truly knew if the person you're watching is the real Margaery or her acting. And I think that's what makes her a dynamic character, she was a pawn being used primarily by Olenna who is training her to be the next player, but in reality her cunning, emotional intelligence and people skills makes Margaery herself a player playing other pawns.
I don’t think she really lost to Cersei though, both in the books and kind of in the show too. In the books if I remember correctly, as much as she has yet to get trial, she is in a pretty safe situation, really nearly free and surrounded by family. I don’t see her dying with the faith plot line like in the show, all the safety measures her house has put in place seems to be still working. I believe not even the big players would have been able to stop Cersei’s faith machinations, Cersei is not actually good but she has a touch of insanity that makes her a much harder opponent.
That said I completely agree that margaery is still just a piece that’s being prepared to be a player, she has the potential to be in the top leagues in the future. I really hope she will survive in the books.
My only complain for the show interpretation is that they have made her a little bit too much of a seductress and less of a overall cunning manipulator. In the books she’s just kind to tommen, she gives him kittens and attention and that’s enough, if they approached the show in the same way it would have added a lot to the characters and made their relationship less uncomfortable. It would have shown she can differentiate her tactics but most importantly it would have shown how starved tommen was for attention and kindness, how Cersei was very much not a good mother and neglected him.
Finally if I had to choose a queen for Westeros I would choose Margaery, really even as a king, she might not have the claim but she seems prepared for the role, smart and kind enough, not naive and not evil, with good advisers. It’s really unfortunate she seems to be destined to be another casualty
Character: Consolidates power and manoeuvres themself into a position where killing them may be technically possible but would come at such personal cost so as to be un-worth it and completely insane
Cersei: "hold my fucking wine"
watching these dang asofai vids cause the next book will never come out! good vid tho
LOL I try to think positively, I at least think we'll get Winds in the next decade.
@@HillsAliveYT I first read game of thrones in my late teens.... I got grandchildren now! well a grandchild. I've lost all hopes
@@TheAdrinachrome1 OMG yes it is wild that the majority of current ASOIAF fans probably weren't even born when the first book came out.
This is a stellar take. I never really considered the perspectives we see Margaery from. You're dead right about Cersei. She has a blindspot the exact size and shape of Margaery. And Sansa is one of the most unreliable narrators in the series. She straight up imagines things that never happened. One of them sees Margaery as a perfect threat, and the other as an aspirational ideal. We shouldn't expect much of the real young woman to shine thru those archetypal extremes.
Shes clearly a manipulator by the way she manipulated Joffrey and his brother but whether she had bad intent was another question
In the book Cersei's idiotic plan backfired much more on herself than on Margaery though. That's the most satisfying part of AFFC, thanks to the political power backing her and the fabricated evidence against her being so weak the Faith already handed her over to her father's bannermen. On paper she should be pretty safe and stand good chances of being cleared of all charges in her trial, her father's army stationed at king's landing will see to that. Meanhile Cersei has been publically disgraced. She will probably win her trial by combat, but I don't see what kind of plot device can possibly allow her to recover from all this. Her name and reputation is in the gutters. The political power in King's Landing seems to have shifted to the Tyrells and the Faith Militant.
I never thought less of the Tyrells for losing to Cersei. That would be like an American Vice President nuking the Vatican while the First Lady and the whole government (minus the President) is there. That's not playing the game, it's watching the world burn, having flipped the switch to make it burn.
They're all dying off like flies aside from Willas. Sounds like losing to me.
What I hate about the show it's the Cercei gets away with it, while in real life or "book canon" there'd be consequences for her actions.
@@AnzuBrief I wouldn't be surprised if there was a smallfolk riot, if that had happened in the books - considering Cercei just wild-fired both the harbinger of an ostensibly more charitable church (the High Sparrow) and one of the more popular, socially-conscious queens in King's Landing's memory (Margaery).
The video I’ve been waiting for! Thank you. Keep up the good work!
I think that Margaery's change in the series, and her big difference with her counterpart in the books, comes from something; the time skip that we did not see in the saga. The reason why she was such a good character is because this version of the character, for me, was the original version of Sansa Stark that we were going to have after the time skip.
I don't believe for a second that she is a D&D invention. And for her role, her presence and his attitude and for what we know about that time skip. It makes me think that George RR Martin dusted off the old notes from when the saga was a trilogy and when Sansa was to be a queen by marriage on the iron throne and well versed in the Game of Throne.
There's also the fact she's a lot older than she is in the book.
@@annieandelsieofarendelle3294Yeah, i think that’s what they meant.
What time skip? :-)
@@TabiiKnutschaa There are four versions of the story. Or at least, there were four plans for this one. The original; was that it would be a trilogy, explained in the famous letter where it reveals the end of certain characters (as Arya and Jon would end up together).
Then came the initial version. When Game of Thrones was released, GRRM intended for a time jump of at least five years, which is why most PoVs start as teenagers or children. But it was postponed because of Bran
The time-jumping story has two versions; the initial one where a jump was going to happen before the red wedding (I still believed that it would be a trilogy), where the relevant thing here, Sansa was going to stay in King's Landing as Joffrey's wife and was going to betray the Starks, for her own ambition. That's why Lady dies (foreshadowing of her estrangement to her family/foreshadowing irrelevant to the history we have). After the obvious changes to these plans, there was another jump devised for Dance with Dragons, but the prologue of the time jump became Feast of Crow, now, GRRM has already ruled out the idea of a time jump.
For me, Margaery Tyrell in the books, became important the more Sansa moved away from that original version and that, for the series, D&D relied perhaps on GRRM's notes or ideas to make changes.
The Tyrell’s while obviously scheming, have to deal with CERSEI, so that would definitely make them close ranks. At least Tywin knew that there was such a thing as ‘live and let live’
Natalie Dormer also played Anne Boleyn in The Tudors who was very much like Margery Tyrell
I think that the show did have her fall into the trap but showed that she was smart enough to get out of it. She played along with the zealots to get out of jail and back with Tommen, and she knew that Cersei was up to something just before the Sept blew up. Margarey was smart, but ultimately she was vulnerable and underestimated just how evil Cersei was.
I always got the impression that Cercei is projecting all her own character traits and teenage personality onto Margeary. And that Margeary is just a teenage girl that is making sure to never do any of the 'bad' behaviors that could come back to hurt her later eg not having a maidenhead ofln her wedding night.
I would love to see your takes on Petyr Baelish, Lord Varys and Tywin Lannister
She’s done videos on that already.
GoT picked Dormer to play Margaery as a player given her role as Anne Boleyn in the Tudors. In Westori terms, of course she was a player - her mother was a Hightower. And great video as always Hill's Alive.
As someone who works in production- it’s actually because there are so many restrictions for shooting with minors and as a result it costs more money. If a production can effectively cast an adult for a minor role or age up a minor to an adult in the script they will.
Yeah totes, I just assume that when productions age characters up majorly i.e. casting someone who is 30+ to play a character that is supposed to be 15-16 in the books it's because they need someone experienced and with range since they could just as easily cast an 18 year old and avoid all of the production restrictions.
From what I remember Margeary has no POV book chapter so we actually don’t know her true thoughts and ambitions. Nevertheless we get a sense of her skills and tactics which I think the show portrayed quite well. Natalie Dormer did an amazing job 💗
natalie dormer was incredible
I hope that Margaery survives in the books, gets pregnant from Tommen and becomes the new queen/queen mother when Tommen might ''accidentally'' fall from a tower or something. I hope that she is the Queen that banished Cersei and thanks to her family's food supplies feeds King's landing. And therefore becomes a beloved Queen. It would be interesting to see how Dany would react if the people of King's landing support their new queen. How can you take over a place if its ruler is so beloved? It truly shows the Tyrell's major strength: good PR. That is my personal head-canon.
She’ll say the Tyrell owe fealty to her family and are uspers
@@wolfsbanealphas617 I hope that when the time comes, Margaery is smart enough to receive Dany with open arms. Then she would let Dany play the queen while Margaery becomes her hand and the Tyrells become the power behind the throne. Hell, they can even make Willas marry Dany.
@@jsdfsad7143 yes plus with Dany need to be in charge and above her husband this crippled handsome lord with the best land is a good match it appeals to her narcissism’s and he’s has no claim to “her” throne
@@wolfsbanealphas617 So true and the Tyrell men are already used to women that control their families so it would be perfect. Olena and Margaery are both smart enough to serve as the Queen's hands.
@@jsdfsad7143 this ain’t that type of story.
this is insanely insightful
Like the vids, keep up the good work
👍😁👍
Yup we are missing Wilas the heir to highgarden and Garlan the second son, thus why Loras could be a kings guard, he had no chance to be the lord of the reach
Why do I Hill's Alive this much ? Your analysis is impeccable and can you please do an analysis of Why is Catelyn Tully-Stark is hated so much by the Game Of Thrones fandom.
wow this is exactly the kind of GOT discussion i was looking for insta subscribed
Yass you did my fav character!!
Margaery was a serious player in the Game of Thrones. Like you said, she is "a piece in training to become a player"
She knew how to fulfill the role passed to her from the real OG, Olena. We see Margaery sort of...whining and moaning and the matriarch settling and directing. I think the show did a great job at showing Margaery 's growth, but Cersei has been playing the game of thrones a lot longer, whether she is truly adept at it or not.
I liked that the show expanded Margaery, and that because, imo, a visual adaptation needs to be different. The "unknowns" about Margaery in the book provided a perfect space for the show to explore more of the story.
Great video. Marge was one of my fave characters in the show. Love your analysis of her!!
It really struck me when you said she was "lucky to die in the best episode". Because when I first saw that episode, I was so sad to have lost my favourite character (yes yes, I know that's how Game of Thrones works). Yet during the last season, when I watched the show slowly get worse and worse and all my other favourites (Sansa, Jaime, Tyrion, Brienne) become shadows of the great characters they once were, culminating for me with Jaime's character assassination ending with him dying embracing his abusive sister/lover he went back to for some reason, I vividly remember myself looking at his death scene and thinking to myself "thank God Margaery died before the show went to shit". I can't bear the idea of how the writers would have ruined her by the end if she was still alive. She got the best ending out of all of them (well, I guess Brienne is doing mostly okay).
I dont think Margarey got outplayed by Cersei as much as Cersei just fukn 9/11'd St Peter's Basilica plus the government of Westeros. Seriously, while it was a pretty cool scene it just made absolutely no sense.
To the initial question: like most binary questions GRRM gives us, it’s both/neither. In this case, she’s not as good as Cercei believes but not innocent either.
But that question is missing a thematic point. “Sun rising… East…West” is from Greek Mythology. It means in that story “when a king(or queen in ASOIAF) is willing to give up their crown (in ASOIAF they can have a child); namely, if a king(queen) is willing to have a child they must accept being replaced by that child. Aerys wasn’t willing, hence disowning his children. Neither of Aerys’ daughters will be willing to either; Cercei can’t accept her children’s rule, Daenerys’ wouldn’t/won’t accept her son/daughter’s rule. So the irony of Cercei wanting to protect Tommen from threats though manipulation and seeing Margaery as a great manipulator would seem to be perfect queen for Tommen; except it would replace Cercei, which is what is supposed to happen.
Tommen needs a queen to help him, one to be around after Cercei; but Cercei will never accept one. If they are too good, Cercei sees them as a threat; if their too weak, Cercei thinks they are not qualified. (Probably a “three little Bears” allusion in there too).
I rarely agree with channel but I enjoy it very much I watch every video now
I think GOT-Margery is who ASOIAF-Margery will grow into if she isn't killed off before she gets the chance. The showrunners cut out a lot of material to slim down the books, so it is possible they killed her off early to streamline things and keep around characters they like. After all, it's easier to trick people into thinking that Dany is a hero with Cersei around.
Very concisely and eloquently put,and i absolutely agree. Btw, although show MT is technically a far more interesting character than the book version, i somewhat prefer the latter, as she feels more realistic. I also love that she,like her entire house,is essentially meant to be a mystery/a blank slate.(we don't ever get a Tyrell POV, although they're a big family.). Both the readers and the characters are allowed to project their own expectations onto them and almost nothing is certain. Masterfully done george!
Yeees I've been waiting for someone to talk about her
"Natalie Dormer undoubtedly slayed" - I SPAT OUT MY DRINK HAHAA
I think the only reason that House Tyrell is so matriarchal is that Oleanna is that smart, they all know it, and aside from some fits of bravado and ambition they let her run things - it's just EASIER! *Also, she loves her grandkids, even if she uses them as pawns, and they love her back!*
The Karen hair do on Cersi is so spot on lol. You know she was asking to see the manager
i think what is forgotten, is that Margaery had her powerful family around her to protect her and back her or other way around backed her family in there want to have a Tyrell on the Throne. Olenna aswell as Margaery wanted the same thing so they scemed for the same purpose, also since Margaery and Joffrey drank from the same Cup there is no way Olenna would put her granddaughter into the danger of poisoning her to. so she had to know when the poison was added
Show margaery tyrell ate and I’m not willing to accept any different opinions
I actually think Margaery will survive in the Books, simply because I see her as one of these Minor Characters GRRM mentioned in one of his Interviews after the Show ended, that will be different from the Show. At the Moment Margaery isn't even in Kings Landing as far as I remember, she was given from the Faith into the care of Randyll Tarly who sent her back to her Family in the Reach. So I think she is out of the line of fire. Furthermore, very "soon", and Hopefully we will read it one day, Cersei will have a new Nail in her Coffin, I think the second she hears that Daenerys Targaryen is on her Way to Westeros, what I expect to happen somewhere half way in WOW, she will focus her obsession on her.
I expect her to die which is unfortunate because I'd prefer she didn't and I am generally rooting for House Tyrell, but I expect that Willas and probably Garlan will at least survive so their House won't be extinguished.
I remember being intrigued and slightly intimidated by Margaery in the show. She clearly manipulated Joffrey with ease, and who’s to say she wasn’t also being extremely calculating when interacting with Sansa? It always felt like she was working toward a bigger plan that we unfortunately never saw come to fruition because of Cersei.
Martin has said Stannis is inspired by Tiberius in “I Claudius,” who was the second Roman Emperor, but as depicted in that story, never wanted to be emperor (unlike most of the rest of the people around him). His mother Livia and step-father Augustus force him to be heir to Augustus. He is a highly successful general who won Rome’s wars against the Germans.
Like Tiberius, Stannis doesn’t actually want to be king. That’s one of the main reasons why his fans like him. He is doing his perceived duty to the realm, when he would rather be doing something else.
I have argued elsewhere that what makes the most sense is that he will become Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch after Jon.
That explains why Melisandre things he is Azor Ahai: She has seen him in the flames leading the Nights Watch against the Army of the Dead as Lord Commander. Just not as king or Axor Ahai.
Stannis does have a lot of Lightbringer imagery like the dragons, Dany, and the nights watch. Martin loves to describe him as smoldering and simmering and fuming; all those words. He is a flaming sword, not the Sword’s wielder.
Moat like, Jon and he will switch places. Stannis has already started reorganizing and upgrading the Nights Watch, their castles, etc.
Another reason people like him is he has a lot of parallels with Ned. Just as Ned was Robert’s general who actually led the troops in the field, that seems like the future role of Stannis in the war for the dawn. There is no one else fighting the others with his skill set as a general (and admiral who burned the Iron Fleet once before at sea).
Loved Margaery in the show. She never seemed like a masterful tactician or anything but she was an expert at the social side of things. Her ability with people with Olenna's mastery of plotting and politics was a fantastic combo.
personally, i think that if you age up the book canon margaery, she would actually be a lot like the show-canon margaery. of all the things that the show changed in the books, i like what they did with her character. she's not quite the soulless type like cersei, she's definitely nothing like the naive sansa nor is she like the headstrong arya. she actually is a charming character without faking charm, she just understands that charm can be very useful and she indeed uses it to her advantage without being soulless, naive, nor overtly tomboyish.
the most obvious contrast to her character in the show is cersei, but i personally think that foundationally, she is a lot more opposite to arya's character (show and book), and i like both their characters. arya, from a young age, understood that she is not (and never wants to be) the princess archetype. her strengths as a person lie elsewhere in the spread of human experience. while margaery not only embraces the princess identity and status, she knows exactly how to thrive as one and not be a mere bird in a gilded cage like sansa.
Eh....I would hardly consider the Tyrells good at politics, there is a reason they always manage back the losing horse, first Renly then Joffrey and then Tommen. It is striking that the Tyrells manage to always end up in an Alliance with the people who would be horrible for the stability of their house. I don't remember the exact quote but I remember Hill's alive made a great statement on Succession regarding Viserys the 1st choosing Rhaenyra as his heir and its that simply deciding to skip the legal heirs on a whim would be disastrous for Westerosi politics and the people. Backing Renly over Stannis means that functionally they are saying that anyone with the military might can usurp someone else's rightful title and also that a third son can inherit over a first or second son. Secondly, by acknowledging and marrying margarey to Joffrey and then Tommen, they are accepting the idea that a bastard who has no blood claim to the iron throne whatsoever can usurp the throne which is just as destabalizing as letting second sons usurp their older siblings. Rhaenyra catches a lot of criticism for having bastards but at least in her case the Targaryen blood is undeniable because of who the mother is, Jace, luke and Joff all are targaryen bastards. Joffrey isn't the same, he has no baratheon blood. The only good option for house tyrell would be someone who would keep the status quo in Westeros which is arguably Stannis and yet they back everyone else because they are afraid of what he might do because of a spat they had nearly 2 decades before that Stannis hardly cares about, or would punish them for.
Well I personally interpret that not necessarily being bad at politics, but them just taking their best opportunities at the throne. Backing Renly wasn't the best idea, but Stannis was already married and Joffrey was betrothed to Sansa, whom he needed much more at the time to have any hope of keeping the North in line. Once Joffrey became an option, they took it. That's just my read on it though.
Cersei shouldn't have been a rival in the first place. Once Robert died and Joffrey was king that shouldve been the end of her political power but she was so controlling and paranoid that she made enemies out of anyone and everyone.
She should have been immediately loaded on a carriage back to Casterly.
I think of book Margery more like young Alycent on HotD. has some skills and knows her role, with someone more skilled pulling the strings and instructing her. Like the masterplan comes from Otto, here its likely Olenna planning and instructing her granddaughter and Margery is just good at playing that. In chess a pawn that reaches the other side of the board can be turned into any character, most usually a queen, and this was likely the plan for Margery. Start out as a pawn, instructed by the real mastermind Olenna, learning more skills as she goes until eventually she becomes a master player of her own. Sadly because of Cercei's intervention, she will never get to reach that potential. In this case the show Margery to me is what she could have grown into
Great take
Margery's departure from the show was timed perfectly I'll give them that.
When it comes to Cersei and Margaery I don't believe it's as much about tactics or politics as it is about family and growth.
Cersei (like all parents) knows that her children will mature and grow up to have their own families.
She's a narcissist, she can't bear to loose the control she has over her children. Margaery's threat to her is how well she establishes common ground with her sons (monstrous or infantile). Cersei wants her children to have marriages as horrible as hers was with Robert; to never be displaced from their side.
Politics? Margaery winning the hearts of the people bothers her, a political rival bothers her, the court not being entirely in her control bothers her...
But the Tyrell's have weapon much more terrifying than politics. A united, loving house. Margaery knows what a functional marriage and family looks like, and understands how and what she must sacrifice to create it.
In her eyes, even from the grave Lyanna ruined her marriage. How much worse would a living 'loving' wife be for her influence over her sons?
Her entire life is about family. Desperately chasing her fathers approval, an insestious relationship with one brother, obsession with controlling how everyone perceives her other brother... and trying to keep her children from ever growing up and outgrowing their need of her.
Her narcissism towards her family is the center and core of everything she is.
'As the old adage goes when you have a hammer everything looks like a nail" ... WTF I was with you right up until their... Def never heard that and if I did 🤨🤦♀️ lmaoooooooo
Look out for your thumb 😂👍
I think that Margery was relying on the knowledge and strategy of Lady Oelenna, and that needs to be remembered.
I think that a lot of fan opinion about Cersei's political ability is based around the difference between where her skill is and where she thinks it is. As you say she is narcissistic and has a bad habit of disregarding key threats. She is by no means bad at the Game of Thrones, she just isn't quite the master she thinks she is.
The reason the fandom thinks that es of Cersei's political skills is because how everything she did in AFFC backfired on her. Yes, she can scheme, but in the gameboard of all the players of The Game, she's in the bottom place
LOL I mean it is lowkey iconic that the series is so hugely focused around so many people attempting to assassinate kings/queens, and Cersei not only manages to off Robert in like 72 hours once shit hits the fan, but she actually gets away with it. From that point of view alone I have a very hard time saying she could be bad at the game.
Since Tomen is still a little kid in the books, we will most likely not see a simular relationship between them like the one on the show between her and the Boy King.
I wonder how old we are meant to think Margeary is on the show? I get the impression that she is meant to be younger than the actress is in real life but obviously older than she is in the books. Maybe 20? She was definitely one of my favorite characters on the show. After watching all these kids get traumatized by people and circumstances they dont understand, it was nice to see a grown woman handle the situation with grace and intelligence.
I believe she's of Theon and Robbs age. Around 19.
Young people can be astute players of dangerous political games given the right circumstances, training and characters. Elizabeth I of England springs to mind - a very clever young woman who lived through and survived some very dangerous times to become a queen - at a very young age.
The Tyrells are NOT an imagined threat. They are the only ones who can actually take down the Lannisters. They killed her son because they couldn't control him. They are the biggest treat to the Lannisters and Cersei was the only one who saw it. She went about it the wrong way, but she was not wrong.
They're a serious threat because they have the better PR...
@@OcarinaSapphr- and because they are just as cut throat as the Lannisters. Just not as aggressively
Her way of handling it was essentially just self destruction, antagonizing her powerful allies and bringing about the downfall of her own house in the process and the implosion of Lannister rule just like more intelligent people like Varys and LF intended her to do. The Lannisters are dependent on the Tyrells, their alliance is the thing holding the realm together. By killing Joffrey the Tyrells actually kind of did them a favour by preventing their rule starting with another mad king. Of course Cersei wasn't wrong to want to prevent Tommen from becoming a Tyrell puppet. Tywin and Kevan saw the threat too and went about it the right way by not antagonizing the Tyrells but also not giving them too much influence.
She doesn't feel that devious to me in the show (been rewatching, just about to the end of s3). The main takeaway I have is that she seems to have found a way to achieve her political goals thru kindness and practicality - I cannot unsee the Princess Diana comparison. Still a piece, but in the process of actualizing.
Then again, she was like, the ONE ally we saw in the show so I'm definitely biased. And on that note, a hearty FUCK YOU to the High Sparrow.
I like that show Marge stuck with Sansa even when it became clear they'd never be sisters-in-law. Book Marge just ghosted her. 😭
I thought her TV character was good in that sense, because she was "devious" but not a bad person? And I liked that they showed someone who was a fantastic political player but wasn't actively trying to hurt people with the power she acquired.
@@HillsAliveYT Absolutely! Like you said, it was a really good job of merging both viewpoints of her. I think it makes for a more nuanced character.
And as George has said... these aren't real people, there is no "real" Margaery. But one thing is for certain... Cersei is definitely wrong haha.
Just remember - Queen Isabella of England (Wife of Edward the II and mother of Edward the III) was 12 when she became queen. We can't let a number dictate the political impact individuals would have, as GoT is written towards a Medievalesque setting. So, it would be wholly believable that a girl of 16 would have the savy and cunning to compete with a witch like Cersei :D
I do not think we will ever know about Maergary Tyrell pov , Mr Martin does not seem to finish his book .
I'd hardly call her getting outwitted in GoT an insult against her political savviness or intelligence. Even when fighting Cersei, one probably wouldn't expect the biggest and most important church in Westeros to get essentially tactically nuked, especially since she had her uncle there, dozens of high lords, and had basically zero allies remaining. Multiple other intelligent characters would've fallen for that because it's such a batshit insane move that'd lead to the entire country declaring war on you that it probably wouldn't cross your mind. But then again, one might expect Cersei and the Lannisters to have access to wildfire after Blackwater Bay and she is very very unhinged, but still, I think even people like (show) Tyrion would've fallen for that. Only people smart enough to avoid that are like, Varys or Littlefinger. Even Olenna I could see falling for it. Tywin I could maybe also see falling for it, although he wouldn't be in such a situation in the first place.
I actually think that Margaery's decisions were much smarter than they seem in this video. Margaery did not foresee exactly how Cersei would come after her, but she knew enough to have Loras in the kings guard and to be constantly surrounded by family members and ladies to make her above reproach. I would say the Tyrells are also well aware of the power of the people, and that her being beloved of the people means it will be much more difficult to find her guilty. Think of the High Sparrow. Why is he so powerful? Because he is looked at as one of the people and has fanatical support. He is a smart player, but he releases Margaery. I think that is partly to do with the fact that he knows very well that losing the support of the common people (when he already doesn't have the support of the nobility) is a death sentence and he hears the common people calling for her through the doors of the sept.
To me, whether or not Margaery is a mastermind is actually not the point at all. The Tyrells are powerful as a family. They are a unit. This is in comparison to the constantly bickering Lannisters who all have different aims. The Tyrells plan together, they stand behind each other. Circe sees only Margery as the enemy (likely partly because of the prophecy) when in reality it's an entire web of influence against her. Margery doesn't need to be a mastermind, because you only need a mastermind if they act alone.
I like the idea of Margaery being almost as manipulative as Cersei thinks she is in the show. It gives off a “broken clock is right twice a day” feel.
It was hard to watch Cersei arm the faith militant because I had a pretty good feeling that they were going to end up persecuting her as well. It was pretty obvious. All the rumors of her children being bastards and also the rumors of her incestual relationship with her brother was definitely going to come up sooner or later with them. It's one of the few times I wish we could have seen Tywin around to at least put a stop to some of it. That and I would have loved to see him and Ned Stark have some scenes together.
To be fair the Starks acquired their gifts through women from other houses. They basically would breed with women who’s houses they defeated. If the family had powers like the Blackwoods. Also I believe the Stark name almost died out but a wildling king kidnapped the only Stark child “daughter “, and left her with a son
I’m actually hoping Margery outwits Cersei in the books I loved her in the show I think it would be interesting in the books it was the tyrells vs dany in the books do you think it would be interesting if we’re that way? Tommen could use a push to be a better king and Margery could mold him into that. Cersei is so stereotypically evil I’m hoping she meets a worse fate in the books than in the show. Margery is smart I would like see her progress more.
just to play devil's advocate, cersei's youngest sibling, tyrion, is quite the intelligent adversary to her perceived self-brilliance. it makes for the case that she wouldn't be surprised if any person that crosses her has the capacity to plot against her. obviously, tyrion isn't the monster that she paints him to be, but she is 100% correct that he is a very intellectually capable person. if you look closer at their family history and their sibling dynamic, suddenly, it's not that surprising that cersei often sees her enemies in this skewed perception, BUT, that doesn't mean that her opinion of others are always wrong.
cersei is actually often partially right about her assumptions, but the part where she is often grossly wrong is concerning people's intentions. she has zero wisdom when it comes to that. she's is partially right about margaery being a challenge to her position and status, because that's literally just the natural order of things. the younger would eventually replace the older. but she is wrong about her intentions. if the tyrells wanted the throne for themselves, they would have groomed a male heir instead of a female heir like margaery. the tyrells prefer longevity over the throne itself, so the most practical way to get close to the throne without being the challenger at face value is through a female heir. it should have been perceived by cersei the way anyone can see it, but because of her warped view of the world through maggy the frog's prophecy, suddenly, it's all about her when in reality she is not even the queen regent.
In the books Margaery is a bit more aware and clever thanks to her grandma, but is still a very young girl.
In the show she was impressively manipulative for her age and well on her way to being a big player of The Game.
Could you please make a video where you will explain if it is logical that Brian has become King of Westeros!
Thanks a lot!!!