Pick-Up Artists, Seduction & Masculine Intimacy (with Dr. Rachel O'Neill)
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- čas přidán 18. 09. 2023
- You can check out Dr. O'Neill's book "Seduction" here: www.amazon.ca/Seduction-Men-M...
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Podcast: open.spotify.com/show/32Qn6UTMQd3ZFzkQg3xlgO - Krátké a kreslené filmy
The stuff about race rings very true to anyone who's familiar with this scene. Asian and especially East Indian men in Western countries have it really rough when it comes to dating. If you look at dating app statistics they are always ranked lowest when it comes to women's preferences.
Yeah, prob because they are misogynistic as hell.
Well most ot the people tend to date inside their own race/etnicity, so the best way to avoid this is to not inmigrate to a country that has a diferent race
@@videostomas100I don’t think the majority of these men has any choice in where they immigrated
i aspire to communicate as well as her
Read more books about psychology and philosophy.
Also, write down your thoughts (journaling).
Lastly, speak about the things you study to others, especially with people smarter than you.
@@derusmares9508 thanks for the advice
34:46 i feel such sympathy for humans of the world who care so deeply of what other think of them that it shakes their core. the fact that not everyone will like you being a "haunting" realization speaks volumes on that person's psyche
Seriously interesting stuff! Such an important topic that gets overlooked
Thank you for talking about this...
I think the dehumanising women aspect needs to be tackled a bit more, I don't feel like it's talked about enough or correctly.
I really appreciate your work and although I don't know hers, I also really appreciate what she just said. I think I needed to hear this, needed to think about this.
learning about women is not a sin, just the mainstream pick up is immoral. I learnt just fine without objectifying
@@Alex-vf6qi Haha, out of the genders which objectify themselves, who does it more? Genuinely curious if you'll simply answer without confounding it, and that answer might also help you understand why men do it :).
Great episode. Dr. O'Neill really knows how to convey her ideas.
I am getting her book :)
@@emiliosalazar9962if you haven't watched the video and already have an opinion you are admitting it's not an educated opinion, which means it is worthless. You have already posted various comments here re: criticism of women's behavior. Whatever that is, or may look like, please, I dare you, opine on it on your own channel.
@@emiliosalazar9962 Go ahead and write peer-reviewed papers to counter her research. But first I'd suggest you actually watch the video... you'd lose that bet.
@@emiliosalazar9962Bro she literally killed Osama Bin Laden. You think I'm gonna criticize somebody who killed Osama Bin Laden?
@@abelabel3664 'write peer reviewed papers' hahaha, what? the literature is already available, accepted, but not integrated. Are you serious?
@@Dimitris_Balf 'robust feminist argument' This is Poe's law personified.
I really wish this episode was longer
Very interesting. I would very much like to see more academics on the podcast :)
The problem with pickup artists is the unhealthy objectifying mindset and gamification of dating. The problem with mainstream advice is that it’s generic and wrong. Most people giving advice do not have the requisite experience, background, or success rate among clients who have faced immense rejection and failure, not to mention the shaming of men trying to get help. Having seen both, unfortunately pickup artist advice despite all its flaws is far more effective than mainstream advice.
Mainstream advice isn't advice at all, its a denial that you should even want an intimate expereince with a women. According to this video, men don't want to have physical intimacy with women, they only want to gain status among other men. Men only want "access to women's bodies". Its a totally fabricated idea to deny that its difficult for average men to get into relationships. They cannot admit that anything is difficult for men because men are the ones with power and because we live in a patriarchy they cannot have any problems.
That stuff about economic factors motivating people to feel the need to max out their stats was a layer of complexity my brain wasn’t ready for, right before this video I remembered thinking about how I’ll be ok in the future because I’m well rounded… noooo I’m apart of it lol.
Rachel was great! :)
Watching porn with someone in the room reminds me of my boys passing me some particularly strong “medicine” for the first time just to see how I take it. Different people really like seeing different reactions I guess
As a straight guy in early 20s who got into seduction culture, I don't think having casual sexual encounters is always solely based on raising masculine value. I'll speak for a group of guys big enough that it's worthy of mentioning them. It is a mix of many things, one of them is for sure gaining masculine value and respect amongst other men.
Another key thing for me is sex drive. I want to have sex and I don't look for committed relationships, though I'm not against them and if I meet someone interesting and close to me lets say, through my casual connections, I would most probably continue to explore them deeply.
Another thing for me would be the process. The process of interacting with these ladies, understanding female nature, how they work, how they think... Etc.
And one more thing would be facing whatever seems hard to be done. Approaching women and leading that to sleep with them isn't an easy thing to get done and I think if that's what someone really wants to do caused by their sex drive in this case, it would be very good if someone is able to find the person for it and get it done.
This is how I and many guys I know see the picture, good or bad, this is one side of the seduction-puas culture.
I agree completely. The way that feminist speak about sex makes me believe that they have no sex drive and have no desire for physical intimacy whatsoever. Its like they cannot comprehend why a man would want to have sex other then some societal pressure.
@@treeforged9097 I don't like the way you use the word "feminist".
These people are a lot more sophisticated than I am, so I thought I'd try to express what goes on in my thought process and hear their opinion about it.
@@Wickdblissfeminist are wrong about gender n sexuality. Even whenever they talk male they end up talking about what's best for woman or how man should act under feminist condition. They're always propogandist. And Sisyphus is just a woke stupid.
@@Wickdblissit applies to a lot of women more broadly than just feminists
Glad to have found Mrs. Jordan Peterson. ~
55:47 bookmark
So many big words I did not understand but overall a wonderful and informative podcast!!!
It's called verbosity and it's that sad sophistry which dominates academia, politics, media and corporatism.
@@Unlucky-Dube Surprisingly the only word I didn't know in this comment was sophistry!!!
@@cooper1918 Another good one 'double speak' it's all sad rhetoric to say nothing while saying a lot.
@@Unlucky-DubeI can't tell if your comments are meant to be ironic but in case they aren't - what you've written reads very similarly to the very texts you yourself are scorning
@@totallyfake2852 are you talking about the word 'sophistry' or 'rhetoric' lol. Nothing about that is ambiguous, nor skirting any point.
Can we also get her hair care routine pls? 😂
sisyphus with the drip. I see you
Drippyphus55
@@BRUH10155one must imagine sisyphus drippy
Sappho55 when
Kinda weird when a guy sports lesbian flags. Learned this Spanish term "Esquerdomacho" recently, I feel like it may apply to a lot of these online "healthy masculinity" dudes.
@@trashpostersanonymous Is there any actual things you think he did that would put him in this "category" apart from having a flag...? Would you ever be convinced by any man "performing" heathier masculinity?
@@abelabel3664Love this!
could also be that he doesn't live alone, that it isn't his flat or that he has lesbians that are close to him, or that there are other flags elsewhere in his apartment@@trashpostersanonymous
it's cool to have people sporting pride flags that aren't theirs, even more when it's a group that is often forgotten or weaponised. let's not throw some weird skepticism where there doesn't need to be
@@emiliosalazar9962nah man you're missing the point. The point isn't to call out men or women it's just helping men deal with internal struggles. What do women themselves have to do with a man's internal struggle?
A lot of the people in these comments being like 'but women make dating more difficult!' are coming from a very American centric perspective
I'm not from the US, and in my experience it's very similar.
No. They're evolutionary difference man and woman which exist universally feminist propogate social construct theory that gender is just a social construct. They don't talk about differences between man and woman. We end up not talking about issues which male faces. Even whenever they're talking about male they end up talking about what's best about female.
at 15:27 the point made that it is encouraged in the pick up industry is to push and pressure the girl.
These people are from the MAIN branch of pick up which is inferior the the very small group of people who learn truely about women in the space(that do not refer to themselves as pick up artists but often dating coaches as the name itself is objectifying). Because If you really understand women you will know that one of the best things you can do is instead of pressuring her you should do the COMPLETE opposite
eg: after a date a girl came back to my place and was outside the door, and just before entering I noticed she was hesitant, this is understandable we had just met, im stronger then her physically and no one knew she was there, I calmy told her that if she came inside she could leave whenever she wanted and there were no expectations we could just have coffee and chat. she smiled and agreed. I could see she was a lot calmer and open. we got inside. had coffee, started kissing, I eventually put my hand under her shirt on her back and was tracing her bra, and 15 seconds later she pulled away a little flustered and clearly didnt know how to say she didnt want to go further, I smiled and said she was a good kisser(she was) and I moved back and didnt make a big deal out of it and started chatting about other stuff, then 30 min later I said it was getting late and if she needed to call a cab she could let me know as she wasnt from the area. little bit later she asked me to call one, I did. said our goodbyes. Next week she came round to mine we end up in the bedroom kissing, I stop her and let her know to tell me if she wants to stop and I will stop.(ofc I will look out myself if anything is off like i did last week) we had the most amazing sex, she told me it was the best she had ever had(because she was allowed to be herself without judgement from how i had been honest and communicated with her up to that point) she even had insecurity about her legs and so I made sure to compliment them in bed (they were amazing it likely came from a past critisism of them)
the most important thing is that she was also seeing a guy at the same time, and he was telling me about him and I INSTANTLY knew he was one of the pick up guys from that main thought process. how he negged her and played on her insecurities to spike emotion, to the fact he did pressure her into things lightly with certain qualifiers.
I didn't speak badly of him, but she stopped talking to him and only started talking to me, they didnt fight or fall out she just prefered me and it wasnt even close because his methods of unauthenicity are simply inferior to my approuch of honesty and not objectifying but almost bringing her to life as a person.
In conclusion, that main stream pick up art teaching is only previlant because it is 1. easier then authenticity 2. there are not enough men with a good romantic skill set to beat this dark side of pick up because of the culture we are in that does not teach it, and shames it which pushes it underground.
edit: not my only experiance, I have had pick up dudes try to talk to a girl im with at bars and night clubs, I sweeped the flaw with them, women are not stupid and are very good at judjing value, and again I know all their tricks. because they see it as catching a fish. When a fish does not want to be caught, a women does want to find the right guy. so he is trying to catch the fish and I understand its a fish that wants to fuck another fish, and can very much understand how that works. unlike being caught on a lure.
Tldr
@@paperandpavement story explaining mainstream pick up is inferior to true seduction. not even close.
@@Alex-vf6qi you have the wildest dreams blud
@@emiliosalazar9962 Hahahahahaha! Look at yourself, a week and she needs someone else but here you are vehemently defending that :D
Holy mother of god.
@@emiliosalazar9962 It's very impressive that you managed to miss the intent of what I was saying and instead deflect your own insecurities on to me, truely outstanding mental gymnastics
We are all just shell of what we once were
real
38:47 the reason that noone would ask you if you "tried" nursing vs sex-work if you did studies on them is because anyone can just go do sex-work, but not everyone has the opportunity or ability to become a nurse. I had to work and study hard to become a RN, whereas anyone can make an only fans.
People are generally just more intrigued in the conversation if you did sex work *because* it’s sex-related. It would spark a more prurient interest, regardless of accessibility. I think that’s pretty understandable given the taboo nature of it compared to nursing.
Haha I love being single haha
I was hoping she'd at least mention it when she brought up the problems black men had when running at women: pick up doesn't work. Maybe she thought that she herself was immune to the techniques as she saw how it really worked but the unremitting failure of these men in their attempts to "pick up women" should've merited a comment. I get that she would disagree with their views on women but I'd at least think she would've noticed that these "teachers" were just ripping these poor men off.
I mean, running full sprint at a woman on the street isn't attractive regardless, so idk why you focus on this?
@accountrandomnumber182 the whole point of their antics is that they are supposed to be attractive. All of it is a waste, I thought it was a point that should've been obvious.
She doesn't care about men. She is a feminist, she only exists to find ways to blame men for everyone's problems and to deny that women are capable of doing anything.
As someone who experiences no sexual or romantic attraction to anyone, this topic is truly perplexing
🤦♂may god bless you
You will have your first sexual attraction ever when you lay your eyes upon my chiseled abdomen
Maybe this is a superficial observation but non hetero men can install grinder and get more or less instantly submerged in requests. Hetero men, try it out. It is actually interesting to see what must be similar to the experience of hetero women on online dating platforms
I commented on one of these about seeing the bush
This is not what I meant
But it will do for now
alright now
She’s so fine
I've had a bit of a parasocial crush on you since I first found your channel. both because you have a lovely voice and Also, because I'm a bit of a sapiosexual. It seems fitting to me that you would also be incredibly physically attractive lol
Today I learned the meaning of sapiosexual. Thanks 😊
It's kind of a bizarre concept when you think of it, especially since it relies on your perception of intelligence which could be subject to it's own plethora of cognitive perceptual biases. E.g. confirmation bias as a key example.
Or, maybe, it centers on a feeling of being challenged by that we can appreciate as beyond our own capabilities but still within our realm of relatability. Kinda like being a submissive but knowing some karate.
Or, perhaps, as a way to feel special and unique (and possibly virtue signal) Sapiosexual's distinguish themselves in having tastes that supercede the superficial but, in that desire, become excessively superficial.
Should we, instead of administering IQ tests, measure a sapiosexual's level of arousal as the test subject labours?
What does intelligence even mean?
Why am I writing this?
*Please have sex with me, I promise I'm smart.*
@danmchardy6424 I think you would be hardpressed to find a facet of attraction that is NOT heavily subjective and subject to bias. In the end, someone's attractiveness is reliant entirely on your perception of them. You can't determine someone is smart because a spaiosexual is attracted to them, just like I can not conclude that you're a "nive guy" just because your girlfriend thinks you're a nice guy. I have dated a few assholes who I thought were nice guys, for Instance. Only made worse by the fact that intelligence is a fuzzy, unquantifiable thing.
For what it's worth, I think you're funny, your comment gave me a decent laugh. Humor is also really attractive, but I think we can all agree on that.
would.
Sisyphus. Your comment sections are absolutely insane compared even to other political/philosophical/psychological channels. Why do you think that might be the case.
Yes Joseph Sisyphus will see and reply to your comment Joseph
WOAH! how lucky am I?! However I will say it’s hard to call Andrew Tate vomited garbage as *discourse* Lolol
Even Sean Strickland doesn’t like him.
They mentioned him for maybe 1 minute
What's fascinating to me is how some people's transparently manufactured opinions and outrage directs my attention toward 'discourse' as that pathetic pearl clutching and uncomfortability means that it's worth exploring even Socratically.
Why are you so proud of being so offended? It's genuinely so bewildering. If you were able to properly investigate and understand things, you simply wouldn't be. May I ask if you're as offended at female agency and perspective in Islam? That affects (considerably) more women and men, I wonder how outspokenly offended you are about that? I wonder what exactly curated that opinion of yours, and how much of it is by obvious design.
Eww, getting access to a body... I could never think of women as practice, but I have not been in a relationship either. I think I will ignore that correlation :P
"Being open to broader ranges of experiences" - I am sorry Mrs but u certainly dont get that women and men do not share the same dating opportunities. That is an easily perceived misconception and a basic one which lacks understanding of men which you in that field should have. Most men cant get dates as easy as women do so they have to search actively.
Oh no good advice, the alternative is what, being mad at the system? If so watch the video again.
@@rileybonaventure5366Dear Riley, thank you for your response! You certainly can't give good advice if you have not understood a problem.
I never said that the alternative is being mad, the alternative is good advice.
"Oh no" is disrespectful btw - try it with your boss and you'll see :-)
Can someone explain the lesbian flag hahaha
What is the issue...?
@@abelabel3664 There is no issue i just found it confusing since I assume he identify's as a man lol
@@DarkJupiter16 pathetic proselytizing and sanctimoniousness
@@DarkJupiter16I think he just has solidarity for a friend (some could call him an ally)
@@Vivacomunismo ah okay, that was my first guess as well
why do you have a lesbian flag in the background?
Isn’t that bisexual and asexual?
I feel like there is a womens convention to never consider that problems root in womens behavior and that male problems are created by men. In her whole talk she never thought that women COULD be a part of the problem in the first place. There is no real empathy but more like blaming: "look these men seeing women as sex objects" - what about "those men are invisible to women and try to maximate their chances of the few they even get".
Your comment is ironic, since you're confirming that in many cases, it is the complete opposite. Men fail to realize thay their perspective is skewed so they blame everything on women. Sure, there are stereotypes that both men and women propagate, but your mission is to see through that and not let it bother you. Fact is, a lot of men do objectify women and fail to realize they're human. It is because men are conditioned to seek out sex and relationships in order to gain status, so by extension, they're going to see women as status symbols rather than people. Obviously such a mindset is heavily rooted in a patriarchial belief system, a belief system which centers around men but is propagated by both men and women. Forming connections with women as a straight male is identical to forming them with anyone else, because we are all people. But the pressure of needing to have sex as soon as possible makes men ignore that fact and they start seeking out quick answers and methods to "crack the code" of women, when there is no code to crack when it comes to human relationships. You say some men are ignored by women. This statement in itself is a dumb generalization. Women, like most other people, will be put off by unpleasant behavior, they won't ignore you just for existing the way you are. Go tommorow and try to befriend random men, let's see how you'll fare. If you're not socially competent, the men will ignore you or avoid you. It's not some problem about women, it's just how most humans operate. I mean, if you wanna forsake who you really are in order to try and have sex, not even gettung a proper relationship, let alone a deep human connection, be my guest. You'll most likely going to get rejected heavily and your resentment is only going to rise, because those tricks can't make up for social incompetence. So what I'd try to work on is just being better in social settings, rather than going deep into this mindset that dating is a game for men and that women are points. I especially recommend befriending women, but with the sole intention of remaining friends. It will do wonders dispelling you of millions of stereotypes that you're being fed everyday, you'll realize they're not any different from you. Which hopefully will make you realize there is no game there and make you less inclined to pretend someone you are not around women.
@@bratprica6383femcel
It's fascinating how she uses red herrings here to downplay the agency of women. The "neoliberal reframing" she talks about is because most men have become a commodity in online dating, so the only solution is to learn how to compete in the dating market they create. It's a red herring because it distracts from the way online dating gives more power to women to choose from a wide variety of men. Women pursue the "logic of accumulation" as well, and online dating makes it easy.
Then she blames the white trainers for the fact that black men couldn't start conversations with women without the women feeling threatened. Starting conversations is difficult, what alternative does she consider better? Certainly not one that emphasizes the agency of women. Is the problem with here the trainers or the women who assume the worst about black men?
The information was very interesting. I think you just wanted to hear a different talking point.
@@LoneWulf278 clearly you heard the talking points you were hoping for
@@slmille4 I was hoping for objective data/research, and I got it. Learned a lot.
Nobody was being “blamed” for the poor outcomes. The approach simply wasn’t effective for every group of men. It speaks to a lack of awareness in that space. That’s all.
You seem to just have a poor comprehension of what was being discussed and looked for a reason to be defensive.
@@LoneWulf278 "The approach" was simply to have the courage to go up and talk to a woman. The ethnicity of the trainer was irrelevant. It wasn't even a particularly unexpected outcome, just one more rejection that any guy doing the same thing would have to face. Don't just try to confirm what you already think, consider both sides in the situation.
It’s not women, our society is just narcissistic, dating apps are a symptom of another problem, do with that as you may.
In these comments: A lot of people triggered by a flag
1:07:31
Sex is not binary it's bimodal
Gender is a social construct.
So the concept of men and women(binary) is made up,
Gender abolition is the future(if u r against that ,u r a gender essentialist , patriarchal)
Also masculinity and femininity r archaic and reductive,binary, regressive categories to categorize people who r complex
,just call people by their name ,u r not a kid who needs a kids guide book to put people into binary boxes.
Just to make sure i am talking to people who understand that sex is bimodal and gender is a social construct
Not to a lib or reactionary or even a leftist who is not aware of this concept,as they would throw away the argument that I made.
Why does bro have the lesbian flag behind him? 💀😭
World needs bad men.
Did you get your "philosophy" from watching True Detective?
Blaming men for men's problems. Throw in some subtle accusations of homophobia because "the Game" doesn't apply in the same sex context. Another zero empathy intellectualization of real problems by academics.
@@Dimitris_Balf she does state that the industry is not for the gay community, but it would have been good to point out their is a limited market for this for logistical reasons. like you can go up to a women in the street and she is almost always straight based on stats. gay people can not do this, ESPECIALLY dudes, girls can a little bit but its still some of the issues.
Someones being spoken about in this video and doesn't like it
@@emiliosalazar9962 Oh absolutely but not because I'm masculine or successful.
I come from drug addicted trailer dwellers. I've made it to a societal break even point 20 years earlier in my life than my father did. Mediocre job. Mediocre house. Maybe I'm a little more limp wristed than my dad was but at least I'm not beating women over crystal.
The difference here though is I don't measure merit by masculinity or success. I'm good to people and I live a happy life. That's winning.
You're just a shallow jerk who wants to be right on the internet. Grow up.
@@emiliosalazar9962 I don't struggle with a thing. I'm happy in my skin. I don't need to feel strong to find that.
You do and that's the problem.
@@emiliosalazar9962 Are you still at it? I guess I shouldn't be surprised at all the free time
As a man never take dating advice from a woman it won’t be in your own interest
Lol, it's astounding how hard it is for men to realise that women struggle to communicate because they struggle to reflect, they (on average) vastly do not understand themselves.
Why would a woman want to teach men to be dishonest to get laid?
how
You mean the exact people your trying to be with? If you put that into any other aspect of life you'd be a moron.
Oh, don't take the advice of the plumber on your plumbing, only take advice from people with plumbing problems. See?
They don't know what they say at all best advice is from a brotha
feminist... I'm out
lose the beard
lose the attitude
lose your balls, jk balls are cool
Why the beard looks great
@@skilledender it doesn't he looks like a homeless bird
@@ali_i68stray birds are beautiful