Percussion Barrel Gap - Why Tight ISN'T always GOOD
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- čas přidán 23. 08. 2024
- Showing how the barrel wedge on the colt style percussion guns can affect the barrel-cylinder gap. Suggestion on how this can be improved if it is an issue with a particular firearm of this design. Could be useful information for a black powder revolver shooter to have in their holster if the need comes to draw on it.
Your videos or quite thought out you're a good teacher I like your instruction and the way you go about it keep the good work up.
Glad you like them! thanks. O.R.
For many years this adjustment was not common knowledge. When the arbor is bottomed out and the wedge is seated it's a very solid assembly that not only maintains the proper barrel/cyl gap but also guarantees against the wedge shooting loose and being damaged. Uberti makes a fine gun but never paid attention to this important adjustment. Once set it will last the life of the gun. Thanks for a well explained video on this important point.
Thanks Sam. When a lot of us started of course there wasn’t CZcams. Books were available, but not many dealt with black powder handguns. No forums. I did what Keith said in Sixguns, but couldn’t get the accuracy I wanted and put things on the back burner for more than a generation. I’m just glad its different now, and manufacturing, models, and information is much improved. We’re lucky. Thanks again. O.R.
An excellent tutorial! I have rarely found the barrel hole bored too deep, but when I have I drill and tap the end of the arbour and use an allen grub screw, if you use a 2nd tap and leave the thread tight is does not move, but is there if you need to adjust again in future, I have read about the short arbour problem, but I have never found any of these problems with European purchase pistols, but I think in any mass production things, a long batch can suffer from tool wear or tool adjustment issues, which quality control should pick up. Say safe ! Chris B.
I sure like the Allen plan. There isn't much play in the hole-arbor, so I'm thinking that the wedge might actually be able to make the arbor tweak slightly where it is in the back of the frame. Anyway, the cylinder probably stops it before that happens. Thanks as always. O.R.
One thing to mention is you don’t want your barrel to be tight on your arbor pin, if you have to put any amount of pressure to push your barrel onto the arbor pin that’s bad.
What happens is if your arbor pin fits tightly into the barrel as you take shots the barrel will jump on the arbor pin each time and bind in a slightly different position affecting accuracy.
To fix this throw some oil down into the arbor hole on the barrel, push your barrel onto the arbor pin sideways and grind your barrel left and right until you reshape the arbor hold, when your done your barrel should drop right onto the arbor pin with no pressure and be “free floating” when done you should pull some metal shavings out of the arbor hole and you will be able to rotate your gun and your barrel will spin freely on the arbor pin.
What this does is after every shot it allows the barrel to return to a relaxed state and keep everything consistent, this is known as fitting your barrel as is actually part of any high end action job or gun tune AKA making a cowboy action gun or race gun.
On my uberti 1860, the hole was bored too deep for the arbor. I pulled the two pins out of the frame, installed the cylinder and barrel, and put a piece of sandpaper between the barrel and frame. Used that to lap the barrel in until I had about 3 thou cylinder gap. Then I made a disk of steel that would fit in the arbor hole. Ground it down until the arbor bottomed out at the same time the barrel touched the frame. Now it has perfect cylinder gap and you can't drive the wedge in hard enough to bind the action. Last thing was drilling and tapping the end of the arbor for a grub screw for the wedge to bear on. This way I can turn it in a touch as the wedge wears. And if I ever have to fit a new wedge, all I have to do is adjust the grub screw instead of risking filing the wedge a hair too small. It made a solid setup and I wouldn't trade that old Uberti for a modern colt...
Great information. Would you mind if I were to pin this? O. R.
@@oldranger3044 it would be my pleasure. Hope it helps others
Were the pins in the frame easy to remove without damaging them? I’ve been wanting to remove mine so I can mill off about .005 from the frame to tighten up my cylinder gap as well.
@@jamesavery6015 Hi. Sorry I don’t know much about that. I did have a gun that was missing a pin. I believe they are “staked “ in with a tight fit. Possibly cooled and set into warm frames, but this is only a guess. We can bet they are intended to be tuff to remove. I should try on a old frame, but it is brass and therefore wouldn’t prove much. Do comment on this if you get some experience. Again, sorry I can’t offer much advice. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Hey no problem. Thanks for the response. I’ll let you know how she goes. Great stuff on your channel by the way!
Excellent video and explanation. To summarize, when the revolver is properly set up the arbor should bottom out in its hole at the same time the barrel lug contacts the front of the frame. That way the barrel/cylinder gap doesn't change if you tap the wedge in a little more or a little less.
Now if your barrel/cylinder gap ends up being too big then you have to remove a little material from the end of the arbor and from the front of the frame. Just a few thousandths to lessen the barrel cylinder gap. To remove material from the end of the frame I pull out the two small pins so I can file and stone the end of the frame easily.
In most revolvers I've worked on the hole for the arbor is too deep. So then shims can be put in the hole. Some people have added a set screw to the end of the arbor. Again, the goal is to have the arbor bottom out when the barrel lug contacts the front of the frame.
Excellent summery, thanks. They say a picture is worth 1000 words, but I can say first hand that when trying to make a video (at least for me) on this sort of topic, the written words are much easier, and better than the video. And, a picture of this won't do much good either. With the video to get the basic message, and follow up comments like yours, folks should be able to better understand what I didn't years ago. We just hammered in the wedge and wondered why the cylinder would lock up on our 2nd gen colts. So we just backed it out some. Ya, it worked, but ain't the way it was meant to. Thanks. O.R.
Ahh the old infamous short arbor problem! Uberti needs to tighten up... Modern pietta arbors are perfect. While uberti guns fit,finish and internals are better they never have fixed the short arbor
Suppose that could be advantage if come crude gets "down the hole". I didn't want to mention the maker of the 80's gun, but lets just say it wasn't Pietta or ASM. Not that it couldn't have been. I have had some 2nd gen colts that have the same problem. I never gave that a thought when I was shooting and trying to get the wedge in just the right distance. Thanks. O.R.
Thanks, you just lit up my understanding of the problem. Now I can fix it.
Thanks! Very helpful information.
This is the whole reason Walker repros get a bad wrap with bent frames. once you post the arbor, a Walker can handle all the 60gr charges it wants.
Thank you, another interesting and useful episode.
Thank you for posting this.
The commenter is correct. The arbor should bottom out and the wedge is tapped on to set a pretension. This in turn tightens up the assembly, takes out all the slop. The massive forces of the bullet traveling through the barrel make short work of a loose gun and beat the crap out of the wedge and the arbor and arbor bore. On original Colts the arbor end that inserts into the barrel is slightly tapered, as is the barrel bore. The wedge then tightens up the tapered bore making for a very tight assembly. The trouble then is that the arbor still has to bottom out to create the fixed position. The tapered section always moves couple thou depending on how far the wedge is driven in. A tapered bore and a fixed stop make for a very difficult manufacturing situation where the stop (arbor length) needs to be adjusted to get the proper taper fit. Hope you could follow my rambling :)
Sure did. And it makes a lot of sense. I just commented to Englishman that I believe the Uberti Walker I bought has that tapered fit. Sort of like a lathe taper. The barrel wedge had that thing so tight when I got it that I raised some metal when I got it free. Da--should have used heat if I would have known what I was up against. Thanks for this information on the originals. I was wondering if that was the design, or if they intentionally left space in case there was a build up of crap which would not allow the correct gap. Thanks again. O.R.
P.S. If you have any ideas about the faint clicks that can be heard when slowly lowering the hammer, I am thinking about a follow up to the timing clicks video. Figure one is when the bolt arm snaps over the cam, but haven't thought much yet about the others I am hearing.
@@oldranger3044 need to check my Navy to confirm, but one is the bolt arm snapping over the cam as you said, the other the hand snapping over de ratchet, because the hand spring forces the hand against the ratchet and the cylinder is locked. These 2 actions 'reset the action' for the next shot.
@@Prowbar Thanks. Actually I woke up in the night and started thinking about that, and I came up with the same thought. That bolt hand-arm thing will need to snap into the next ratchet so it is ready to start cylinder rotation. I think you nailed it. I believe I need a break, but this sort of thought happens when it's been a long winter. Thanks. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Interesting thoughts for sure. Something like this always plays in the back of my head, too.
@@Prowbar Agree, just wish the band would pick a different time to stoke up.
Close, but you're conflating two different issues. Yes, the arbor bottoming out inside the barrel should control the cylinder gap (NOT the wedge position). But no, the barrel should NOT clear the frame as you say it should. There should be 0.005" to 0.010" of interference, or "pre-load". This preload is addressed after setting the approximate cyl gap. If the gap is right, but the barrel clears the frame, you should shorten the arbor further, until the correct interference is achieved, and then face off the breach end of the barrel. Often, once the cyl gap is corrected, there will be too much barrel to frame interference. Then you mount the barrel on a mandrel between centers on the lathe and face only the portion of the barrel which contacts the frame. It may take a few tries to get both the right cyl gap (0.003" to 0.005") and the right preload. If the barrel breach is faced in the process, the forcing cone should then be touched up accordingly. In setting a small cylinder to bbl gap (0.003"to 0.005" is good) you're likely to find the cylinder face has too much runout, and will drag in one spot, and so it may need faced off also. This is quit common on the cheapo-repros. That facing job too is properly done on a mandrel, between centers. Any affected chamber mouths should then be chamfered using fine sandpaper to eliminate any burring, which I submit is one cause of chainfires. And furthermore once all of this is done you may need a wider wedge. So it isn't all so simple when it comes to properly setting up one of these guns. But it isn't terribly complicated either.
Thanks for pointing this out, and your detailed description. I wasn’t aware of the pre-load. I’m guessing that is necessary to reduce barrel flex downward, but only a guess. Again, thanks for comment which explains that the correct amount of contact between barrel and frame is actually necessary for a tight fit of barrel to frame. And, also for other tips on setting up the colt style revolvers. O.R.
Never bought a new one in perfect condition; bought some returns and damaged. Every is its own project.
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@@oldranger3044 I would not change it. I am 51 Bent. short to long I am lost. The open top may be stronger than the Remington. Steel is stronger under compression than tension.
Excellent!! Thank you sir!
i wish this dude was my grandpa i love my twin 1851 navies
can you redesign the cylinder so that it moves back and forth when the cocking mechanism is activated in order to close the gap between the barrel and the cylinder bearing the blowback physics in behind the pressure that is exerted on the mechanism, if the mechanism is sound and simple, it can either be simply replaced or maintained. There is also the trigger spring problem with the grinding with the squeezing thing that chips the metal and shaves it down while cocking it back, that can be redesigned, and also if you can close the cylinder gap with the barrel pretty tightly, you can throw in a proper .36 calibre minie ball which would not only improve accuracy, it was the civil war version of OP insta- muerto. Also, the cartridges can be stuffed with smokeless without brass casings if the cylinder itself can sustain the pressure and be durable with modern alloys, along with shotgun wadding or cartridge design to keep the minieball in, while using the minie ball itself to mimic the brass casings of expansion to seal the gases for the propelling of the bullet. Thanks for coming to my TedX talk, these are eco friendly rounds, and environmentally sustainable for 2024, it is very ethical compared to everyone owning centrefire. Saving the environment, one bullet at a time
oh man,I caught these last 2 a little late.anyway,enlightening stuff.im up for these informational videos as I want to understand the ins and outs of this hobby that iv taken up.
Thanks Ron. Have another that deals with the internal part kit offered by Pietta that I think will post this weekend. I inserted the parts into an 1860 to see what issues there might be. Just might be interesting for you also, as you said, you are building a knowledge base. O.R.
Thank You Sir for your helpful video about the Colt style wedge function. - You have a great collection of percussion revolvers there. Have you any more to show us .. maybe shooting tips?
Thanks Martin. I’ve had a couple other requests for that, so maybe I can put something together. Thanks for your suggestion. O.R.
A 5mm split washer in an Uberti can be used and filed to fit. You can solder it on the arbor. I drill and tap the end of the arbor for a screw then file fit it to work.. Pietta doesn't suffer from this a bad as Uberti but Pietta has it's own arbor issues by being lose..
I can't wait for some warmer weather to go out to the range, only about 10 more weeks to go for some +30s
You got to be as far North as I am. "What can you tell me Piinkerton??" "Its going to be a long winter"
I've had a couple revolvers done by a gunsmith Goons gunworks some of the things he fixes is the cylinder gap problem some of them have and a few othe things that give it a perfect and consistent gap every time ..great video
Its easy to do yourself with a file.. takes 30 min.. learn to do things yourself save your money
Good information, thank you
"I found" my difficulties or ease of assembly/ disassembly to be my oils and the almost perfect fit on my wedged revolvers. I filed/cut a vent to stop compression and vacuum in these fits. I took into account the wedge and cylinder barring structural edges as designed for these adjustments, and I did same to alignment pins giving them a few fine one sided file licks to keep correct as designed but break their seals.
Super interesting Dave, keep up the good work, and you to stay safe. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 still learning? had BP from 76 to now? JUST got my FIRST two wedge revolvers a 60 and dragoonhave not test fired eith yet, this week?
@@davefellhoelter1343 What part of the banana belt are you in?😁 I still have over 2 feet of snow, and would have to load with chopper mitts. Some folks get all the luck. Oh, good luck with the guns. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I'm south of the Masson Dixon in La Ca I must "pilgrimage" 2 hrs with No Traffic with $120 in fuel to our test sight 6 miles west of Patton Museum.
@@davefellhoelter1343 Thanks for explaining that. I'm in fly over territory, and not far enough from the Canadian border. Eleven months of winter, and one month of poor sledding. O.R.
Thanks!
Uberti is short arbored. Pietta is long arbor
Or instead of shims some drill, tap and screw a screw in front of the arbour, that way you can regulate.
That's right. I'll bet it was you ,crowbar or disciple, that made the original comment about this, because I remember now about the screw. A small Allen set might work well (centered of course) because there seems to be a recess at the hole end that the Allen would fit into. Also the Allen would not have the head like a common screw, as there probably isn't a huge area for it. Problem might be keeping it from turning and changing things. Thanks for the reminder and this might be something someone will try. O.R.
Iv been doing these from 1968
Good morning,
it's good to work with an expert with experience
my 1851 Navy Yank steel 44
I received it recently, I have some studies in micromechanics
it worked well upon arrival
I took it apart completely
I "adjusted" the wedge in the corner of the barrel as fine as possible so that it could be undone by hand, adjusted the spring of this wedge harder, you have to press with two fingers to remove it (I adjusted the notch otherwise impossible to take it out without tools)
after having deburred the entire piece one by one, filed fine and sanded, dipped in petroleum, blown with compressed air, and petroleum jelly
and also included the assembly of all the parts
(you must be able to disassemble and reassemble your weapon)
Operation is now like a Mitchell fishing reel (at its finest)
After breaking in it will be even better
What powder do you use to make your primers?
Thanks. I have used the priming powder components from sharpshooter 22LR Reloader Store. Sounds like you had an enjoyable time smoothing your 51. Thanks for sharing. O.R.
Why did the Idea of a closed frame come so late? Any speculation or knowledge from my fellow viewers? It looks so unevitable now.
Interesting question. My history on this subject is weak for sure. Probably should check out the colt forums, folks there probably have some ideas. O.R.
My pietta does not bottom out. Wish I watched this first before I found out lol. I hit the wedge it a little too hard and the cylinder wouldn't turn. Though I pulled the wedge and put back it with light taps
Just wondering if you have had the barrel off after the incident? From your comment, does this happen now even with light taps? O.R.
It also seems like when you cock the hammer, something pushes the barrel forward up against the forcing cone. I checked it with a feeler gauge
I believe that could be the action of the hand. It may be more noticeable at the end of the hammer cock. I haven't seen that issue, possibly the angle of the hand could cause that. O.R.
Thank You
my uberti 45 colt open top will not function if the wedge is too tight, usually just pushing it in with finger strength is enough however for a good fit, sometimes it does wander out just sitting on the shelf enough to where i can push it back in when i pick it back up
it does pass the bottom out test however, so i dont get it
the wedge is also a slightly different design than the percussion models so that may be it, my wedge screw is also broken at the moment, the second time, as i am used to disassembling the percussion models and keep forgetting to loosen the screw first lol
Interesting. I won't try to guess, but I have a 51 conversion that does not pass the "ram the barrel on, turn it down and see if it clears the frame" test, and will lock up if the screw is removed and the wedge is tapped in a little more. Didn't need to go in much further either. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 yes its only if i really beat it with a mallet, very nice pistol otherwise
@@HircineDaWolf I didn't mention that there may be an advantage with a little extra distance which would be if some grime gets into the hole, there will still be room to have the barrel come up to the frame. As I mentioned, sometimes it can be too close, as the G.I. 1911's didn't want tight either. O.R.
Good morning sir.
Nice video.
Thanks!
All you have to remember is that .005 is acceptable and .003 is perfect.
Richard, thanks for the numbers. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 You're welcome. Did some considerable gunsmithing over the years. That's how you learn.
Great video! A friend’s Colt 1851 Pietta will only cock properly when tilted up vertically. Will not cock properly when level or tilted down. Any suggestions on what could be the problem?Thanks
Well, that is weird. Need to ponder that one for awhile. Has he had it apart to check for spent caps that can end up inside the action? If not, that is a place to start to see if there are any broken parts or weak springs in there. The hand spring might be partly broken or weak, and in that case the cylinder might only turn when its weight is against the hand. That's all I've got at this moment, if I think of anything else will put in a comment here. let me know if you guys figure it out. O.R.
And cylinders face is Not..always flat
I use tin foil. It compresses and is self ajusting
Can’t see why that wouldn’t work. O.R.
How much should the gap between the bbl. and the cylinder be? I have an 1860 Uberti with .008 I would like it to be a little tighter.