Boat Electrical Systems With Nigel Calder | Atticus Live
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We weren't able to fully explain all of the ins and outs of boat wiring in our last episode, and because this is such an important issue, we decided to consult THE electrical boat wiring expert, Nigel Calder, who will join us tonight to deep dive into boat wiring. We'll address some questions and concerns which arose from last week's episode and open up the floor to any questions from YOU! - Zábava
So... I have a degree in electrical engineering, specializing in power distribution, and am retiring in 6 months to go cruising... having worked 38 years in my profession. This video needs to be the starting point for learning before any novice takes on electrical system work!
Buy Nigels book and actually Read It. Learn how to perform electrical work safely. Great Video Jordan and Nigel!
Kudos to you all for addressing the issues from the last episode head on - to the benefit of all of us - true humility; and thanks for bringing Obi Won Nige to a larger audience!
This was great. Really appreciated Nigel’s statement where he said………”If you don’t understand what is being said get help from someone who does…….!
Nigel sent us an email with a correction so we told him we'd post it here:
"I made a mistake! I was doing the voltage drop calculations in my head during the discussion and screwed it up, luckily on the conservative side!! I estimated the voltage drop with the 3/0 conductor at more-or-less twice what it will be. If you run the calculations you find that from a voltage drop perspective Jordan can actually get away with a single 3/0 conductor so the second 3/0 conductor is not really necessary. It would still have been better from an ampacity and overcurrent perspective to have used the 4/0 conductor but as I said, given that his alternator will not put out its rated output for more than a few minutes I would not lose sleep over this. Bottom line: we all make mistakes so it is important to run the numbers and not rely on guesswork!!" - Nigel Calder
When doing these interviews, voice quality is vital and you will, on listening back, notice the echo in the room. The easiest way to ensure this doesn't occour, or at least is minimized is to hang some cloth material. The easiest I have found is a couple of ladders in the room with blankets hung over them. This cuts a lot of the echo and makes the sound much clearer and therefore easily understood. With Nigel's voice being so deep, the echo makes it difficult for those of us outside the United States to fully understand because the echo and of course, the accent. The content of this video is vital that it be understood by those of us who play with low voltage, we will all gain. Thank you for understanding I am not criticising but rather critiquing....there is a huge difference. This is a $300 a plate dinner to learn....virtual, that is. Thank you again.
I agree, they chose too large a space for the video, however, your solution would have worked if they didn't have any other options. While it was a bit irritating, they were easy to understand, so the mission was successful.
No issue for me. I don't understand why you guys raise this as an issue? "please carry a couple of ladders on your boat in case you make an interview in a room with a little echo"..
@@amundlrum3345 I cringed at the audio quality in the first few seconds. It's reasonably clear to my American ears, but it's annoying. Another easier option: use closer mics, which will increase the signal (voice) to noise (echo) ratio
The book is brilliantly written, clearly explained, objectively evaluating boat systems for the offshore yachtsman. I recommend it to anyone having a boat or contemplating a boat purchase. Personally I downloaded Nigel's book on my Kindle, allowing me to increase the font size for easy reading.
Fantastic that you got Nigel to teach us more about electrics and what one MUST know which is paramount. Thank you. And thank you so very much Nigel for gving us of your time and knowledge. God bless.
Wow I didn't realize Mr. Calder was still around. His boat electrical/mechanical systems book was my bible when I did a gut job on the wiring and plumbing on my 29' Columbia back in the 80's in Seward Alaska. Glad to see your still with us Mr. Calder and thank you for writing that book, it helped me immensely. My wife and I covered thousands of miles in that boat along the coast of Alaska with no problems Thanks to you. Thanks for the video!
Fascinating. Thanks for teaching a topic that applies to mow than boats.
I've learned so much. An my Dad is an electrical engineer.... Loved this✌🏻✌🏻💗😊❣️
Excellent episode. I learnt a lot!
Thanks for such a fantastic video! Nigel is a legend. Looking forward to seeing the rest of your electrical build.
Thanks for sharing a legend and his knowledge with us. Great show.
This has got to be one of the best videos I've had the pleasure of watching! Of course, I guess I chose the wrong week to stop drinking!! LOL
This is an amazing discussion. I had to be in the right frame of mind to watch this video and I learned a lot. Very advanced topics.
These principles apply to much more than just boats.
Great video thanks Nigel and Cap!
Well if you want to know... first find your teacher - expert and this bloke virtually defines living what your doing and being totally honest about what is possible and not and why. He has an in depth understanding of physics, chemistry mechanics, boats and People.😎
A lot of essential information compacted into an hour and most of it very applicable to motorhomes that have installed lithium batteries. Great Video Jordan and Nigel!
Susan & Tony here, Great info
Awesome show! Lots of great information and tips, Nigel is brilliant!!
Fantastic episode!
Well done Jordan! you have been putting together the best tech videos out there.
excellent video Atticus, thank you so much Nigel!
Really interesting discussion. I kept saying to myself why don't they up the voltage? Then finally Nigel got around to covering that. However, he says that normally they still use 12v starter motors. Why? Trucks use 24v systems, so why can't boats? (At least they do in Europe, I don't know about on your side of the pond).
Spot on. They are redoing the electrical system, now is the time to switch. Most modern boat builders are switching to 24v. 24v means half the current for same power transfer, that means thinner wire and saves a ton of weight and cost in wiring. It's a no brainer. Just switch to 24v.
Great show .great content. Thanks to Nigel.
Nigel Calder....legend.
Nice to see Mr. Calder in CZcams. More of that, please!
Excellent video. Having knowledge make you safer when operating a boat
Well done for scooping Nigel for this interesting and informative video.👍
Someone else already mentioned this, but it seems that two alternators and splitting the load would simplify wire size and other issues. Larger aircraft use 24 volt systems and even use 400 hz 120 volt systems for long runs and certain uses. This saves a lot of weight which is essential on aircraft, and they should consider24 volt in this installation, in my opinion at least.
Very technical but fascinating. Who knew?! Nigel is an encyclopedia of knowledge - WOW!
We are very grateful to have Nigel as a partner at OPE. We get humbled often...;-)
This info is priceless, thank you so much!!
Great episode guys
appreciated the lightning discussion. thx Nigel for the insights on surviving. great vid and worthwhile discussion!
the easy solution to all of this is LESS alternator Charging....get it down to around 225 amps MAX output, and a good share of the big problems go away....more Solar, and a wind generator.....lots of options is best....and if it was me, I would also have onboard a Honda EU3000 i Handi...I have one now for my RV, and in 9 years, it has NEVER missed a lick, always started, never quit....wonderful equipment.....OnWard.....
and so many other options having a portable genny on board, 1 being a large pump for emergencies, duel motor redundancy ect ect.
awesome level of tech Jordan. Plz keep that up. This is rare in the the cruising video world. Great video.
Excellent live video ,lots of great information,,👌👌⚓️⚓️
Excellent! Super informative!
Enjoyed that….very informative.
Nigel = Awesome!
Wonderful mini seminar. Also a good case for higher voltage on long runs to minimize wiring cost and size. Suggest you keep your old alternator installed but the belt off as a back up if you have room. Also suggest breakers instead of fuses where possible. Also suggest getting up to speed on NEMA 2000 and Canbus all your sensors and instruments are dependent on them.
Great video guys! This is now going to be standard.viewing for clients that want us to design a lithium battery system for their boat.
All things considered, I think a quality portable inverter (like the Honda EU series) would offer many benefits over a high output alternator without all the potential risks. You would also have a power source when you can’t use your main engine, like being on the hard. The more DIY a boat owner is, the more practical a portable inverter would be.
Yes I think a small generator is more practical than a high output alternator.
If one is traveling the world in the ocean, and not campgrounds, I suspect the alternator is a better idea. Why? Hauling 2 forms of fuel takes up extra space, containers, and gas is more flammable than diesel fuel. I camp and use two small inverter generators, but my truck uses gas anyway, and fire or explosion is not much of a concern. It is easy to overthink all of this in many directions as I am following a similar couple who have been doing this for 3 fewer years, on similar budgets and they have also been all over the Caribean and have crossed the Atlantic in their same boat while we are still close to the starting point with Atticus.
@@vonheise But until you can buy Diesel Outboards for the dingy, that boat likely has fuel for the portable anyway. That's why we see jerry cans on deck, strapped to something. There's no good way to safely store gasoline.
Why does the alternator 'blow' when the fuse blows carrying output current? Did I miss something?
@@MerleNicholson They have been using an electric motored dingy so with the massive electrical system they are going to, I would suspect they will let the gas outboard go and change to electric. They must be making a ton of money from CZcams and Patreon.
Awesome. Thanks so much.
For those who are going to use this information or the book, remember that the ABYC standards and the NEC are MINIMUM standards on wire sizing and MAXIMUM on over current. Choose wisely.
Great video
What Nigel describes concerning "ampacity" and "volt drop" dwells in the physics of Ohm's Law based on the short circuit 'what - if?' list of ways that can happen on a boat, seawater being a superb conductor. {Ohm's Law: Volts x Amps = Power = Amps x Amps x Impedance. Volts = Amps x Impedance. } Impedance in context is the wire or cable impedance. Running cables in parallel is like resistors in parallel. Because there are no perfect conductors, that is where the electrical heating comes from -- what electrical engineers call "I-squared R" losses. That's what drives the electrical codes on fire safety. It's also why alternating current (AC) circuits have distribution advantages over direct current (DC) circuits (higher voltage at lower current delivers power to the load with lower I-squared-R loss).
The higher temperature rated wire and cable conductors usually have some sort of teflon insulation. PFA insulated wire is thermally rated to 260-deg C in sizes up to 2/0. Smaller gauge wires heat up faster, and can even melt if short circuited.
For sheathing bare conductors, one may use polyolefin heat shrink tube, or in a pinch heat shrink the HDPE (high density polyethylene) of plastic drink bottles as electrical insulation. Drawback: HDPE melts above 125-deg C. Know the materials' properties and the trade-off decisions for risk reduction vs. equipment behavior become easier.
Good high-amp bare conductor: Copper pipe from the plumbing shop. Bar stock works, too, but often costs more. Make sure to insulate them well.
One way I help preserve batteries against motor load inrush spike loads is wiring a capacitor in parallel across the battery output leads. A battery management system (BMS) and DC/DC converter often have such things built-in. Why that works: A capacitor has a lower equivalent series resistance than a battery, and can respond faster to supply the current the motor ON spike demands.
Nigel Calder is a technical titan. You can ignore his advice at you own peril.
I love this series, including the applied nerdy D.C. electrical theory that answers so many relevant questions we have, but on this (indoor) Video, I just wanted to say that the Audio room echo was almost un-listenable, though I kept coming back because I really wanted to learn. Perhaps using some noise canceling lapel type microphones might help reduce the room echo. Still a huge fan. Be safe out there guys. ;+)
good stuff
Good stuff
It was definitely interesting sometimes I could follow it sometimes not so much lol thank you
If you went 120 or 240 volt AC the easy fix for low DC voltage instruments on panels would be switching power supplies from desktop computers. They peel off 12 and 6 volts DC for various components and switching supply makes them energy efficient. The 120/240 would also let one use standard freezers, refrigerators, air conditioning, microwaves and hair dryers. You would still need some sort of controller to fake out the power supplies into thinking they are connected to a computer.
I agree with most of the information, but two parallel cables certainly must be derated, planning on one cable not being connected is going a bit too far, of course that is just my opinion, but I have been designing power systems for about forty years. You might consider putting a piece of 3M cold shrink by the alternator connection, it's rated 200 degrees C.
That conversation was electric.
So, is it OK to short things out with a gum wrapper?🥸 Great video! Thanks for sharing.
Knowledge is "hard learning" or expensive. You have one of the marine electric bible writers in Nigel, a wise investment. Many years ago while sailing close between two islands, and being a die-hard "no engine " guy, I realized the current had turned against me, so I started the engine. Almost instantly black smoke started coming out of the engine compartment. I had a choice, stop the engine and go inside to investigate, run aground, or deal with the smoke (luckily no fire). It took several minutes to motor outside the current stream. Then I discovered a cable became lose and went to ground and completely melted almost all engine wiring. Most boaters don't realize that welding steel pipes together can be done with 100 amps or less. Not like house wiring!!!
Did you consider a Victron Lynx Distributor to avoid linking the busbars to the fuses? Nate from Explorist Life makes a pretty compelling case.
Good point...we've been looking at offering those Lynx Distributor blocks along with the Victron package on these projects.
One topic I would like to see addressed is soldered VS. crimped cable connections, especially on large size wires used in charging and battery cabling.
Solder is not acceptable per ABYC because at high loads the solder can melt. Solder is good for electronic connections and radio antennas. It may seem counter intuitive but destructive testing has shown that high amperage primary wiring is more robust when properly crimped.
Sounds like a 250Amp max rated alternator would make life a lot easier.
2 alternators and split circuits, maybe even switchable circuits. more than one way to skin a cat. or a switch to turn 2cd alternator on. and off?
One further consideration. Think about the mechanical load on the engine belt driving 300 Watts on a small contact section of the alternator pulley. For this amount of mechanical load it would be best for the alternator to have its own dedicated belt and pulley system. Failing this, I suggest you carry at least two spare belts in your travels.
Well, I thought it best for me to learn the definition of ampacity. Yeah. I think I'll view this episode again tomorrow. Oh, is the 3/0 cable stranded or solid? Yeah, over an hour, I think I'll takeoff to recharge my batteries! :¬) Webhead USA
3/0 solid?
If it existed, try bending that around a corner!😉
@@danielclairmont1178 Lesson learned!
Nigel said that only class T fuse for LFP. I had heard that the MRBF fuse blocks also met the requirement for min interrupt current. Anyone know if the MRBF can be used?
Also, in central office DC supplies they tend to use flat bars of copper instead of round wires. These bars are uninsulated.
I understand the quest to gain knowledge of the electrical systems ( I always like to know how things work) but for most people a more simple explanation would be more practical. Sometimes when looking to install solar on my RV, I wish wire size, amperage for charge controller, fuse size and what order to install is the important thing. Another words maybe sometimes one needs to" cut to the chase". I still like watching, just get very confused at times. Burlington Bill of the Songs 66 Mustang and Sailing to Freedom.
Is all this marine requirements? Because the National electrical code for non marine has some different rules on parallel conductors ampacity. The OCPD advice is spot on.
Sorry Jordan, should have just turned it over and let Nigel tell all that info.
Gidday from Aussie buds
Nigel, you were spot on, on everything, but even this old dog still learned some new stuff.
cooling fan. from outside air, switchable also?
What's the cost associated with having ocean Planet energy design a system from scratch?
What was the benefit? If all they provided was a very basic schematic with components needed and a link to the a wire gauge calculator then I would be surprised if it cost very much since companies like Battle Born and Victron will provide that type of basic system design for free.
I just released, as a submarine sailor why the battery was heavily scrutinized those batteries were massive
Connecting two nearly inflexible large cables to a bouncing alternator creates the possibility of a loose connection. Have this issue been addressed?
This should be dealt with by using an expansion loop in the conductors as close as practicable to the alternator taking care to make sure it is far enough away from any fixed devises to eliminate the possibility of chaffing. Also be aware that all wires and cables have a minimum bend radius that CAN NOT be exceded. There are also standards on supporting of wires and cables concerning how far wires and cables can be "Free Air"
Comments on Emily and Clarke's ideas on combining lithium with lead?
I am actually going to give that a try in the next moth
Analise your options at 24v dc and 24vdc alternator, its far better and safe with half amps at your load, the cable will fit. Analise de possibility to add an second alternator.
For a 24/7 world travel a small portable gasoline generator can save the day.
Ask Nigel about Lightning protection.
If using 2 cables to reduce the voltage drop with the concern to size the fuse to protect if one cable is disconnected then I wonder if a solution would be
a) protect both the cables with their own fuse sized for the individual cable.
b) protect the combined connection with the larger fuse (for the bundle adjusted ampacity)
Wouldn't that give you the protection if one cable ends up disconnected or if the resistance of the two cables ends up so different that too many amps go through one cable?
Dave
NEVER parallel fuses or breakers only copper
@@tomnead4589 ok, thanks.
A bigger pulley on the alternator would slow its RPM. Wouldn’t that drop the amp output?
how many feet od cable did you need?
Now we know why the NEC code book is huge, Derating is a overlooked fact electricians deal with silently. Boats and homes are different but the details are similar.
Sailing Into Freedom recorded a lightning strike on his mast, with damage that started sinking his boat. Nov 10, 2020 episode. "Disaster at Sea. Lightning strikes my boat and it is sinking. My battle to save the boat." Webhead USA
yes, that was quite an episode!!
Wehead usa
@@garrystacey3816 Don't forget the "b"! Yeah, Webhead USA. A long time ago I was a Beta tester of hardware for Web TV, so I named myself Webhead. It stuck. :¬)
This is why we have EE’s
Can we not get this on Kindle in the USA?
“Ampacity” drinking game = Half way in, I am now shit faced…
You should consider skipping lithium all together and go for supercaps. They have no fire danger, greater energy density, no temp issues, faster charging, a lifetime rechargeability, and all around safer. The incremental cost is worth it, given they never need replacing (1M cycles).
Cape Dory sailboats had bonding to the ground plate
I blew a 300A fuse last year. I cut down a 10 penny nail to fit and it's working great! I think it rated same as a 400A Slow-Blow fuse. 😆
A quick rectification: In this video, Nigel made a mistake! He was doing the voltage drop calculations in his head during the discussion and screwed it up, luckily on the conservative side! He estimated the voltage drop with the 3/0 conductor at more-or-less twice what it will be.
If you run the calculations using our wire sizer you will find that from a voltage drop perspective Jordan can get away with a single 3/0 conductor so the second 3/0 conductor is not really necessary.
It would still have been better from an ampacity and overcurrent perspective to have used the 4/0 conductor but as Nigel says, given that Jordan’s alternator will not put out its rated output for more than a few minutes he would not lose sleep over this. Bottom line: we all make mistakes so it is important to run the numbers and not rely on guesswork!
What I don't understand is, exactly what electrical device's on your boat are going to be drawing such a massive amount of Amps/ current simultaneously?
How to lightening proof your boat - buld a steel boat. I wonder if carbon fibre would work as well...
As Nigel is saying you are pushing the limits of Amperes that can be handled on boats! Personally I would not take such a risk.
I would prefer a redesign to 48 Volt system . Only 1 4 AWG from the alternator would in that case be enough. Also cables from the battery bank could be much smaller....
Another advantage is that it will be a lot cheaper....
What do you think of Regen as an option Vs the Alternator from Hell?
Better than sleeping pills...whampwhamp wooomp waahhmp whaaaamp
Thanks for this. My brain hurts.
From what you learned, what changes will you make to your electrical system now and in the future
If you want a high power system, wouldn’t you be better off using a higher voltage so reduce the current? E.g. SV Delos uses a 24V setup and Umer I believe uses a 48V system. Obviously going for a 48V system would reduce the current requirements by a factor of 4 over a 12V system proposed.
My thought as well. Electric and hybrid cars use much higher voltage to connect battery to motor. They also have a DC - DC converter to handle the legacy loads. The "enemy" is
I^2 R losses. A DC-AC inverter will also be more efficient at 48V input.
the subject was quite thoroughly covered in the video ....
Were not going to talk about Eddie current?
At this drinking word it should be mentioned before to only use light beer 🤣
What is the wiríng standard?
ABYC standards for boats
When Nigel speaks, people listen.