Do I Need Suspension? I Don't Know, But I Added It Anyway.
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
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In this episode, Mr Super Matt shows us that he misses motorcycles through interpretive engineering
Best automotive channel for nerds on CZcams!
“Engineers make the world a better place by making it easier to be lazy” Great quote (engineer here) but I know a lot of technicians and mechanics that would say the opposite!
Engineers make it easier to be lazy*
(*Void where prohibited, mechanics and technicians not included, your mileage may vary.)
As an engineering student and an avid car wrench I feel both if these
Engineers make it easier to be lazy*
Unless you're German educated. Then it's "How complicated can we make it and how many special tools can we create to complete a simple task?"
@@TheRealWTFGarage i can answer that with a joke: how many Germans do you need to change a lightbulb? One. They are efficient and don't understand fun.
@@TheRealWTFGarage I worked at a Volkswagen dealership, there were special tools for EVERYTHING. some really good, but need to lock out a cam gear with a round cylinder shaped thing? you could go to the special tool cabinet and hope there was a free set, or just use a drill bit of the correct size. guess what anybody but the interns did :P
I love how much information your videos convey so quickly with some humor sprinkled in. A list content!
Exactly. It's down to the point and funny
It is masterful content. Every release is such a treat
Easy delivery, amazing amount of genius going on.
"How hard could it be...?"
Oh god he said the words.
Only slightly worse than "that shouldn't take long"
@@JoshuaKuntz57 or "5 minute job"
@@JoshuaKuntz57 Idk, there's like an entire set of bbc documentaries on how bad those words can be in the automotive field
We need to petition CZcams to bring back the 5-star ratings instead of "all we have is this thumbs up thing", for videos just like this.
That was the most entertaining synopsis of suspension theory packed into six hundred seconds.
Thumbs up for 5-star!
Thumbs down for thumbs up only!
#AllHailTheAlgorithm !
*591 seconds
what a suspenseful episode, quite the shocking amount of work to get it to work, but it all smoothed out
I had to bump that comment !
🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅
One of the scariest phrases ever: "I could , but I have a better idea"
Right behind "We're from the government and we're here to help" 😂
Thanks for putting in the clearance for the laser cut parts, and err... not advertising grooming gear!
9:34 you have just given the most compelling reason ever to become a patreon ... those pesky public pubic shavers on youtube are becoming a plague!
Love the video but the thing I love most is that your explanation of suspension movement at 2:58 used an image of what looks like a classic mini which actually has a system that is not dissimilar to that of a bikes swinging arm but with only one side supported and rubber cones in place of springs. A fascinating design that was created to fit in a tiny little car.
Motorcycle engine, motorcycle suspension, motorcycle steering... You're building a 4-wheeled motorcycle, aren't you?
Thank you for not talking about your junk or the greatest new fishing app you’ve “found” and “actually play!!”. Makes me cringe everytime I see it. Love the clean crisp content. Short and sweet and everything you need.
Raid Shadow Legends! Clash of Clans! random vpn
@1:48 What you don't have is not just independent suspension, it's roll articulation. A conventional beam axle suspension is not independent, but it does articulate in roll.
I'm surprised that you didn't mention that the same thing (swingarm, no roll articulation despite two wheels on the axle) is still found on quads, and they all used to be that way.
I want to let the algorithm (ALL HAIL) know that I am sad when Matt doesn't add a post-credits bit. S A D
yea matt let us see that junk
The steering linkage, with the U-joint to isolate the steering from suspension movement, is clever. But tying the two side together at both the handlebar and the axle seems more "over-constrained" than "redundant".
Brilliant as ever Matt. I for one welcome our Crab People Overlords…
So glad you are taking its along for the ride of building this!
All hail the algorithm!
And crabpeople!
Nice eloquent solution. Enjoying the build and design process, thanks.
"That word... That word doesn't mean what you think it means!"
@@stevejohnson1685 I meant elegant, but hey ho
The tabs are my biggest improvement in engineering ever, it is so much easier to get someone to weld it up as it is just like a puzzel. It fits a lot of ways like a puzzle but is only right one way.
Awesome! That about the same clearance I used for my locating tabs when I worked in sheet metal fabrication. I love laser cutters.
Two things, isn’t several 3d objects put together to make a 4d object just a clock??
And two, tab and slot details are great, if you have trouble with the corners fully seating, add dogbone radius to your slot. Save yourself the headache of maybe needing to get a file out
Having fun watching. Good luck!
Getting back to the lazyness comment, dogbones take ages to do in CAD but it doesn't take long with a file on the part* :)
*Assuming you're making a 1 or 2 off of course...
@@RaglansElectricBaboon depends on how good you are at cad
Thinking of 3 physical dimensions and then trying to incorporate "time" as a 4th really only reinforces our perceptual limitations.
@@StanleyKubick1 Or how good you are with a file ;)
Go on, what's your trick for getting them done quick? They p*ss me off!
he was talking about purely spatial dimensions, which string theory says there are at least 10 of, calling time a dimension is to help our feeble human minds that aren't experiencing near-light speed try and understand the idea of space and time being interconnected/interchangeable. also dimension as in another 3 dimensional universe in multiverse theory exists and is completely unrelated
Currently the number one youtuber I look forward to a new video from.
Your view of advertising is excellent, good on ya
My favorite CZcamsr - have an awesome week, Matt!
Long ago I helped build a racing car with a similarly cramped cockpit, and we used lever steering - a lever on each side which you'd push and pull like steering a tank. It looked weird, but was super intuitive and really helped with both packaging and getting in and out of the car quickly. If handlebars don't work out, that might be worth a shot - looks like it would work well with your steering setup.
This is one of the only channels I don’t fast forward through.
Be interested how it feels steering when you complete it. Being a motorcycle rider for many years (like I think you are) jumping on the old original jetski opened my eyes into counter steering to turn corners and even keep it going straight. Took about 30mins to get the hang of things and stand up then I jumped on my bike to ride home and wobbled off down the road
"This isn't the best suspension, but I can't really fit a differential and a four link in the back of this thing"
you can fit anything into anything with enough force
I literally LOL'd at the math class reference. **Shudder** Man, that was a part of engineering school that my subconscious had suppressed to protect me.
I love that this was basically a rant to say "KISS!"
"We make things efficient, thats what engineers do"
Me: laughs in angry mechanic
No the hell you dont. Lol
Efficient for them, not the rest of the world. Lmao
I built warships for 30+ years; engineers never, ever made things efficient to build.
Laughs in heavy aircraft mechanic trying to blindly reach a nut through a 5" diameter hole, overhead and backwards because that's the only way to get your arm to bend the right direction, while standing on a ladder.
@@barry99705 Wife was AF worked B52's. Shes been there done that.
Lol, at every corner the Engineer turns there will be Tradesmen who don’t understand:
- Project time constraints
- Project budget constraints
- General competing design requirements
- The requirements set by external stake holders that the Engineer has no control over but must meet
- Etc etc
Not the junk trimmer 😮 hail the suspension (front) 😀
Really cool project but please think about changing the rod ends on the swing arm to spherical bearings (mounted in some kind of bracket)
Rod ends work well with axial forces (I.e pushrods), but bending loads can cause them to fatigue and break. Especially in this kind of set up with stiff suspension
They are so massively oversized, it would take an act of God to break them. Especially considering the vehicle will probably never see more than a few dozen minutes of actual track time in its life.
My favorite engineering quote “ anybody can build a bridge that doesn’t fall down. Only an engineer can build a bridge that just barely doesn’t fall down”. Or something to that effect…
"all hail the crab people" another instant classic. BTW, I got a Gillette comercial at the end. ¿Ya think the algorithm is now monitoring content?
Be a little (or a lot) careful with the first few drives. Motorcycles and bicycles counter steer but cars steer. You might find yourself drifting in the opposite direction of where you intend when you first drive it. I had this happen in college when I rode one of those big adult trikes. Handlebars felt bicycle like and I would drift into parked cars until I realized what was going on. You may find that handlebars make your first attempts be to control it like a motorcycle.
"How hard could it be?"
Why must you keep poking the great Universe Bear? Is this how you get your kicks before heading to the flats?
Ding Dong, Stop everything, New SuperfastMatt Video.
Thank you for the update and great video. Really do miss the post credit bits though.
Your sense of humor reminds me the early years of Top Gear.
Looks dope. Love the flat-pack design style. Your 0.1mm tolerance made me chuckle because we use that same dimension for smell plastic part design. 0.1 for tight fit, 0.15 for some play. Looking forward to the next episode!
Love the humor. Extremely interesting project.
Good luck with the streamliner! not an easy thing to go over 200mph.
You can get semi-independent wheel motion if you tune the torsional flex of the swing arms. Makes the design a lot trickier though as they're a spring and you can't just throw steel at the problem. Afik, it's a good idea to have some suspension so you can damp tire bounce. Oh and chain can twist 10-20 degrees without issue, I think sprint cars often do this. I'd recommend a plastic chain guide on both sprockets to grantee that the chain engages properly. (dirt bikes have a chain guide at the rear sprocket to do this)
That makes sense, but to keep the torsional deflection (vehicle roll motion) from being undamped, it would need left and right dampers (shock absorbers) mounted as far outboard as possible.
@@brianb-p6586 spot on with relocating the dampers. There will be cross coupling between bounce and torsion so it will have some damping. Might be enough to rotate the connection to the swing arm 45 degrees so torsion pushes on the front shock and pulls on the rear or vice versa.
This thing is coming along nicely, well done
One interesting tidbit about motorcycle steering is that motorcycles counter-steer. I find when I get on a jet skii I typically turn the wrong direction on accident a few times before my body remembers that not all handlebars are backwards. Please dont do that in this at 150 mph 😅
That front swing arm you design is a piece of art. Nice work.
I have found front suspension geometry to be the most difficult aspect of DIY building. It’s easy enough to understand the basics. But the actual engineering becomes exponentially more complex requiring precision i am not capable of. Good solution.
I am worried about your handlebars. It’s significantly more difficult to modulate 2-wheel front steering with your setup. This push-pull will not feel at all like a motorcycle because there is no intuitive feeling you have when turning/leaning both machine and body. Think small old crummy quad-cycle, at speed. But I’m sure you have thought of all this and have accounted for my misplaced concerns.
I can’t wait for a test run!
Two wheels on a swingarm - "like a motorcycle but worse".... Soooo like an ATV?
Matt, you are no joke, and I still want to drive the Jag.Thanks foe the video!
looks great! your passion really sparks over to me too! I have nothing to do with engineering and just get started but I can see why it appeals to people so much! thx!
I wish more engineers spoke as quickly as you do!
I've worked in engineering departments with 200 employees where only 2 or 3 people can cover this much information so quickly (me being one of them). The managers joked about having us meet in a conference room, giving us a problem, stocking a mini fridge with Red Bull and let us come up with solutions. About 95% of the company patents resulted from these meetings.
Perfect, thanks Matt.
Commenting mainly just to feed the algorithm. Becsuse we know it helps. All hail
Love the explanations behind the decisions, really helps me understand what's going on. :D
If you cant make it perfect make it adjustable
Your narration spoke a kin to my facetious nature. Logical and to the point, with a bit of humor.
Hey Matt - is it annoying when doing orders for Send Cut Send with like a 100 little parts? I've only put one order through them for 10 of one item (EV battery cooling plates) and found that it was MUCH cheaper when ordered in multiples and each part had to be it's own file, so I'm curious if you had to upload like 100 individual files or if there is a way to package it all together and export from Fusion 360 or whatever you use. Thanks! It's coming along great!! :)
2:36 - you could have 2 sprockets and 2 swingarms without having a diff and all that trouble.. perhaps.. or not.. don't know 🤔🧐
Matt's Honda S600 had that rear suspension design... before he threw it away in his modifications.
J-Dampers (aka Inerters) and Friction Springs can probably help a bit.
You can also probably make a simple and compact limited slip differential in the rear just by using a pair of freewheels, aka overrun clutches. You can also try using roller clutches.
Hi Matt, Have you considered the effects of the caster jacking on the completely warp bound design you have there? I think the system would be improved a lot by introducing some warp freedom somewhere in the design. Rear bay chassis looks like a likely candidate. I don't think it would be possible to go too soft at all, but you would want most/all of the roll resistance at the front, which I suspect is the heavy end also. Another option might be to get your steering trail with an offset spindle rather than caster.
Always good content. Don’t understand half the stuff just that’s what learning is all about. Thank you.
Another excellent video. All hail crab people and their wonderful algorithm! 🦀
"I'm splitting the difference between suspension and no suspension. I'm basically building a jeep." It's funny because it's true. Watch out for death wobble.
Damn entertaining and reasonably informative, what I’ll ever use the info for I have no idea. FWIW retired cabinetmaker/machinist with a bad motorcycle habit.
Great video, love this kind of stuff and you explain it well 👍
Love seeing this come together. You are engineering a car right infront of our eyes. It's amazing to watch!
Laziness created the most big inventions in the world !
Keep up the good work!
Great video! Have you considered adding a collapsible section to the steering push rods, or maybe using boden cables instead of the push / pull rods? I know frontal impact is unlikely to be a major consideration but it would support the lift up steering and might be safer if the worst happens. I have no idea if your rules would accept this solution.
Love ur work first saw ur Honda on Jay lenno
SFM; you might consider a rectangular, parallelogram linkage on the end of your steering push rods; this way the hand grips will move straight in and out parallel towards and away from you during your push / pull steering control inputs ;rather than in an slight arch; which will act to twist your wrists slightly side to side. This little thing may become a big thing at speed.
I too am interested in how you arrived at 2 degrees of caster? I would think you'd want a little more based on the typical values for straight axles
If you do want to try independent fronts, there's enough room between the wheels to swap in two swingarms ala The Tumbler, or that weird BMW bike.
I want to keep seeing more of this build. All Hail the Algorithm.
From what little I remember from my limited time on the salt for streamliners it's more about aero stability than the suspension articulating in every direction. I think the swingarm is a good simple place to start. Are you hoping to run it in multiple classes and go for multiple records or just going for 1 to start?
Can't wait to see the junk trimmer ad on the side of the vehicle
Don’t use that type 2 bolt flange bearing for the steering. That stamped sheet metal type are…. Not amazing. I’d use a traditional cast housing type using spherical inserts. Cheers 🤙
Motor cycle type steering sounds good, but I'm worried about the sensitivity afforded in your design - looks too direct. Like to hear your comment on that.
Different subject. Laser cutting the sheet metal parts is so good, and your tabs work exceptionally well for assy. Have done a little of that myself.
Cheers.
"A damper for each sprung wheel"
While it looks like a loophole, that was probably the intention... just to ensure that there is no undamped suspension motion.
@@brianb-p6586 Agreed. But the smart way of putting it was "All sprung wheels should be dampened"
The suspension is killing me. Er I mean the suspense.
Really enjoying watching the builds come together.
All hail the algorithm!
Make sure that you have sufficient caster when those front spindles are fully extended, Matt.
My day was okay now it's great. Thank you Matt
Entertaining as usual. Always a treat. Cheers 🍻😁
Coming along nice, keep it up!
Love the video man.
Can't wait for the body episode
You are hands down my favourite CZcamsr. I eagerly await every episode!
I wonder if you should put a shock for a damper on the steering to reduce feedback.
great video looking forward to seeing honda s600 videos
Amazing work!
I really like this project!!
aah, I see, you're making an enclosed recumbent motorbike ;)
I only ever modeled solid parts in Fusion 360. I don't know if Solidworks has specific tools for your design process, but I would like to see how you go about going from the rough design idea to the sheet metal parts.
All hail the algorithm.
I'm curious to see how Matt does this too. Might be some useful tricks or shortcuts I'm not already using
Solidworks has an auto-tab making tool for multi-body parts and assemblies. The only time I've used the sheetmetal function is when I know I want to unfold something later to get the flat pattern. Otherwise I just break each part out into a DXF to plasma/laser cut
Love your work 👍
Serious question Matt; (by the way I LOVE your channel and humor) some land speed record cars have a vertical stabilizer. Due to the nature of airfoils, they providing increasing lift (and or opposing drag) at increasing angles. With my arbitrary understanding, these angles seem to me like in a car you are in big trouble already, likely well beyond recovery, once the fin starts really doing something noticable? Could you elaborate on this?
It's already working when the car is still straight, it's just that the forces are balanced out. As soon as any deviation is made in yaw, the forces unbalance in a way that will simultaneously attempt to correct the car's yaw.
Hope to see you at el mirage this year!!!
Brilliant - though I would use something else than rose joints for carrying the load (and shear effort) of your landspeed vehicle, commercially available ones are meant to be working on rods longitudinally (like your actuating ones), not as supporting elements... I can't imagine shearing off one of these on a salt uneveness above 200mph...
Then if I may, on the zero bump steer bit I'm not sure this is the case here : when you steer, yes the vertical steering axis remains fixed, but the effective length of the steering rod has increased (less visible since the leverage is so small), so you can make sure there is no bump steer at 0 steering angle, but you'll still get some bump steer when steering (I would not worry too much about that, if you're not going about straigth you'll be having other problems than bump steer to worry about, so a large caster angle may be enough to handle that from the steering bar ... ? ) - yet what would worry me more is the play, and short levers like you have are making play more significant...
I am a little worried about this. It's further complicated by the fact that its opposite to rudder pedals on an airplane. It may make more sense to push in the direction I want to go, rather than steer like a motorcycle. it should be easy to swap it, however.
@@SuperfastMatt You could keep the general linkage design (left and right rods, jointed vertical shaft...) but run the rods with levers on each side rather than a handlebar - it would likely feel different enough from a motorcycle that it wouldn't trigger an inappropriate instinctive reaction. This would be like the levers of a traditional skid-steer loader, except controlling steering angle rather than left and right speeds, of course.
@@SuperfastMatt also, I was thinking about the width of the vehicle with respect to vertical stability, when getting so narrow that it may at some point (which point?) behave like a motorcycle and require constant steering adjustment to go straight while remaining vertical (inherent stability to be checked there, including gyroscopic effect of the wheels and centrifugal force of very large curve to maintain a straight line while not falling to the side)... this would also advocate for a "bike" steering system, as you were toying ... but then would that restrict you to compete in the bike category ?
This is such a pleasure to watch
Lazy = efficient, I thinks and there's the voice over agreeing. Good man! Great video.
Have you considered the steering that recumbent trikes use? I have tried a "catrike" and was impressed on how easy it is to steer. Also very easy to adjust how much it steers
I assume that you mean under-seat steering... mechanically essentially what Matt has now, but with the handlebar placed under the driver instead of up top.
@@brianb-p6586 It is like driving an old tank. two push levers on the side. for what i remember...
@@aportabales Tanks haven't worked that way for about a century, but I know what you mean. In this case the levers only move together (if one goes forward the other must go back the same amount), unlike skid-steer vehicles but like handlebars. This article gives examples of this system, which they call "indirect steering":
www.recumbent.news/2021/05/11/trike-steering-explained-examples/
When I built the A-arms for the front of my motorcycle, I got lots of people telling me not to use rod ends in any way that could load the threads in flex. So I made bearing pockets in blocks and used spherical bearings on the arm that had the shocks mounted to it.
If I want to be lazy... er, more efficient next time, how would I pick a rod end with threads that can take the needed loads?
Nice design, very tidy. Can't wait for the inevitable version 2🤣