Does a GFCI Outlet Still Provide Protection Without A Ground Wire?
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- čas přidán 20. 06. 2024
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With over 12,000 votes on a community poll, 2 out of 3 people voting were incorrect when asked if a GFCI outlet needs a ground to provide ground fault protection. In this video, I will walk you through the reason a GFCI outlet still provides ground fault protection with or without a ground wire. I will also outline why I have used this installation in the past to make my properties safer.
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You are awesome and so is your information! I have ADHD and find it difficult to understand a lot of people's descriptions on how to do things, but you make your information clear, even for me! Thank you!
Nice detail at 4:25. I was wondering why my tester wouldn’t trip the gfci. I figured it was cuz there was no ground. Makes sense. 👍
Fantastic video. I've never seen this called out so clearly.
But wrong !
@@millomweb how so?
@@millomweb how so?
@@wellsnapyeah They work on detecting an alternative current path than the pair of power wires that are supposed to be the only wires carrying current. The only way there's going to be an alternative current path is when that alternative path is complete. So if that path involves the use of 'ground', 'ground' has to be connected in to the circuit AT THE OTHER END - which usually means to the neutral wire - and that wire is connected back to the GFCI - so even without an identified earth/ground wire to the GFCI, there is actually still a ground connection. to it. WITHOUT that connection, an alternative circuit would not exist to cause an imbalance in the 2 wires supposedly providing the power.
Having bought a generator about a year ago, I've spent SOME time getting my head around how all this works. If there's not alternative current path, the GFCI cannot trip (and is not actually needed ! BUT IF a circuit should happen it would work and would be a useful safety device.
20 years ago I was buying an older triplex with 2 wire outlets and the home inspector mentioned putting in a GFI to protect people and eliminate those adaptors. I am glad he shared the information just as you are. Thanks.
I had a conversation with a school instructor and he said, every device box must have its own GFCI receptacle based on the Canadian Electrical Code book. Now that can get pretty expensive and I don't know if people are doing that.
@@mweezy Here in the US you can put the GFCI on the first receptacle in the circuit and it will protect the other receptacles downstream.
@@im2yys4u81 Ground fault Breakers are available too
@@hinspect When I did my panel swap a few weeks ago I went with dual function breakers, then had to go through the house and remove the GFCI receptacles.
@@mweezy I think you misunderstood that. The rule is that every outlet must have GFCI protection, but not the actual GFCI device.
You can either chain them with a GFCI first from the panel, or use a GFCI breaker.
In fact, the rules are becoming stricter, and virtually all general purpose outlets must be AFCI/GFCI. The AFCI part can only be done in the panel.
Doing this project today and ran into every confusion mentioned. Wow everything explained clearly. Thank you.
4:26 - saved me! Swapping out old outlets and then using my old plug-in GFCI tester and nothing was tripping. Thought I'd weird everything incorrectly. Thank you for explaining. Great video.
Perfect explanation even though there are always those that will argue the point 'till hell freezes over. Remember, the question was if you "NEED" ground for gfci to work. The answer is no. If the question was if it was preferred, then yes.
In fact, you NEED GFCI to work on groundless circuits in order to bring two-wire circuits up to code when you make a modification to it.
[When you modify an existing circuit, the code requires you bring that circuit up to current code. The code's being nice to you by allowing GFCIs as a legal alternative to tearing up walls to install 3 wire.]
@@fromagefrizzbizz9377 Agreed. I'm just amazed at how so many people answered "no" to the simple question of whether it will work or not without ground.
@@Tom-In-Ga Yes I am amazed as well. I remember when it first hit the NEC about 1972. I was in High School and worked construction during the summer in SoCal. And even after my 35 years as a Building Inspector, there is still confusion about this device. ARC- Fault as well. Lol.
@@Tom-In-Ga Yeah - the beauty of GFCI is how it measures the small differences in hot and neutral currents to trip. If the ground wire had to be involved it would be hard to detect it fast enough and still provide safety.
@@Tom-In-Ga It demonstrates I think wilful ignorance of a LOT of code/diy publications saying EXACTLY what GFCIs are intended for, and why they do work.
On the other hand, such polls are pretty meaningless. Do they mean ground wire, or alternate grounding path. From the perspective of personal safety, it doesn't matter if there is one or not. If there is one, it trips, and saves you. If there isn't one, no current flows, no electrocution, and it can't hurt you even tho the GFCI doesn't trip.
Then you get the pedants saying they don't work without a ground path - technically true. But misleading in terms of above.
Then you get into how qualified are the respondents? If the guy answering doesn't do any wiring, what difference does it make?
The only bad part is those making recommendations in videos or on comments, that say that GFCIs don't work without a ground wire. That's just plain wrong, and is in contradiction to code, official code-guides and everything else.
many guys are talking about this application on youtube but your explanation is the most complete that i have seen...it explaines every aspect of replacing a 2-prong receptacle outlet with a gfci...thanks
Without a ground wire, I couldn't figure out why the GFCI worked. This was the best description I've heard and completely clarifies it. Thank you very much!
That was beautifully explained. You also put my mind to rest, as my daughter's apartment has those labels on some of the outlets and we were unsure what sort of protection they actually provided.
Thank you. With your instructions,
I just completed the installation of multi GFCIs. My Family is safer now given your gracious assistance.
Bless you!
This totally changes my plan for my class B camper van build. I wasn’t going to include a GFCI on the 120v system because I had read they wouldn’t add any protection without a true earth ground. The exception being of course if you’re connected to shore power where the supply is supposed to be grounded to earth. So much for experienced electrical “experts” on the ‘net. Thanks for the helpful vid!
You bet! Best of luck on the project, sounds fun 👍
Very informative video! Been a lab tech do-it-yourself for years and never knew about GFCI and grounding! Super to learn!
Thanks for your excellent explanation! I knew all this but your explanation is much clearer than mine when trying to explain it to others.
Excellent explanation. I had always wondered "why" a GFCI was still advised with an ungrounded outlet.
Thanks for the info on a very informative video. I’m a licensed GC and I installed GFI’s on an old apartment. I labeled the load outlets with the No equipment label but I didn’t put the GFCI protected labels. I will do so in the future! Thanks
Thank you for explaining WHY to those who didn't know this situation......I work on older homes where adding a ground is financially impossible..... otherwise adding a ground to every outlet is advisable
To make life more bearable you only need one GFCI outlet per circuit on the outlet nearest the circuit breaker. Finding the outlet nearest the breaker can be a challenge!
How does one find out which outlet is the first one in the line?
@@theward1244 shut off power to the circuit remove hot(black) wires to outlets...turn on power and check which one has power.... that's your first one in line
@@trek520rider2 true but tell that to Section 8 people. I ended up switching all 2 prong plugs to gfci
@@shanecompton2428 you could also use a GFCI and to make it even better, a AFCI/GFCI breaker type. In this case the receptacles in that circuit are protected.
Excellent information, thank you!!! I just rewired my entire house (born in 1942) and I obviously installed a couple gfcis but EVERYTHING I did is grounded!! If it wasn't before, it is now!!!
I just re-did all the two prong outlets in our place, which was built in the early 1950s. Was wondering why the Klein tool did not trip the non-rounded GFCI outlet. Great that there will be some protection from the GFCI outlet by itself. Thanks for the education.
With a non-grounded outlet there is no path to ground to make any fault current for the GFCI to see. If you want to test your GFCI outlets plug your Klein tester into a cheater plug and then into your GFCI outlet. Find an electrical ground and run a wire from it to the grounding tab on your cheater plug and now the test button should trip the GFCI.
@@dandearman2871 This is unnecessary. A gfci does not need a ground, the test is by drawing a small current with some of it bypassing the detection coil.
If a gfci tester (or test buttons) fails to trip a gfci the gfci is either defective or it’s being supplied thru the load terminals, not the line ones.
That's a terrific explanation and the way you were so deliberate in your delivery made it clear how important the topic is and to take the time to fully understand it.
something I already knew but great explanation of the safety feature a gfci can provide when there is no equipment ground.
OK, I was one of the 66% that had this wrong. Great explanation. Clear, concise, simple and Very Useful! Thanks..
Great video! I have an outdoor GFCI outlet mounted to a plastic box and was going insane trying to figure out how to ground it. This was very educational.
They also make DFCI receptacles (dual function) which provide ground fault and arc fault protection as well. They are the same size and shape as a standard GFCI receptacle and can also be used for the same application.
I was going to make a video explaining this exactly as you stated for my friend. You nailed it. Your video was very detailed and easy to understand you. Great job!
This is what I thought. Thanks for the info. I'm an Ironworker and I'm rewatching an old Csi episode where a construction worker dies from electrocution and the super says a gfci won't work if the tool's ground prong is cut. But I KNEW that couldn't be correct.
I watched your previous video where you were fixing someone's receptacles. I am glad I did, I just ran into that at my daughter's house in Tampa. She had a relative install a gfci on an interior wall so they could be put a outside receptacle in. The gfci would not stay on. There was no ground, just the old two wires with like a cloth outside. I took apart the inside gfci and separated the wires. They had two whites on the line side and two blacks on the line side. I determined the gfci was bad ( I was wrong). Bought a new one, installed with only the line side with one white and one black, everything else went on the load side. Still did not work. Took apart the outside receptacle, they put a jumper from ground to white side. Needless to say, everything worked, I already knew without a ground it would be ok from having watched your previous video. Thanks. not an electrician, previous carpenter lol
Thanks for the link to the GFCI electric outlet tester, I ordered the one with the LCD display thru your link as well as the Wago connectors which I had been wanting...
Super great and concise video. Maybe I am nitpicking but the only thing a might change is the bare copper is the grounding conductor, the white is the grounded conductor, and the black is the ungrounded conductor.
You always explain things so clearly. Thank you.
But wrong ! The GFCI needs a ground - and if it doesn't look like it has one, it'll use the neutral wire as that will be connected to ground usually somewhere.
@@millomweb Can you provide a source or a statute? I don’t see how what he said is wrong. It doesn’t need a ground to work. Edit. In fact I just double checked and you don’t seem to know what you’re talking about.
Great info. Your channel is very informative. I have taken home electric courses and I’m a Diyer so everything you share is very helpful. Thanks for sharing your knowledge 😊 Artie
Great info. You are my go-to channel for electrical questions. Well-deserved subscription! MD
These things are great for old homes without a ground wire. Love the option.
These cost like $20 vs a normal $1 outlet. You might as well just do it correctly and run some 3-wire Romex out to it....
@@sminthian without pulling permits or without an electrician? Because it cost a ton of money to run Romex everywhere, to code. Especially through solid walled homes.
just bought a house 1960 and no ground wires.gfci not grounded so this helps understand now.and i still have that zinsco panel😪
@@hammerridecycling7630 I had a zinsco as well and just had it replaced by my electrician friend for 1200$. New panel with new circuits. Definitely recommended, mine was faulty and the main breaker didn't even cut power.
@@sminthian Where I live everything needs to be piped pretty much. So good luck.
I've been looking for these answer over 30 different videos. THANK YOU
Thanks! Great info I'll be using this if a complete rewire is too big of a job.
Awesome explanation, simple and concise.
Thank you
Good info video. Most older homes, post knob & tube era and pre romex era have BX cable attached to metal electrical gang boxes. Most of the breaker panels in those post k & t homes are grounded, and the BX cable continues that ground up to the boxes. By using that gray grounding adapter and screwing it onto the outlet plate screw a grounding path will occur. An easy test should be performed to confirm that the screw is part of the house's panel ground.
Came here to say this.
This was a GREAT VIDEO! with all the details needed on this subject. Thank you very much for your service!
I have never heard of the labels. Great information as always from this channel.
GFI or GFCI are a wonderful device. They measure the current that travels out on the hot lead, and what returns on the white Neutral wire. If there is any difference it will shut off, and potentially protect you. Normally it will trip at 10 miliamps and has saved many many people.
If you took the Hot and Neutral and pretended they were on a sea saw, if they get out of balance, the circuit will open with a GFI.
Its one of my favorite upgrades as a electrician to bring a house up to code with minimal investment for the customer.
Ideally I would do a whole house rewire, because that would make me more money, however, this option is not really great most of the time because of the amount of labor it is to run new circuits threw the home.
Arc Faults are finally getting better then when they were introduced are a different animal that works by listening to the wire and tripping of there is any arc. Different job, reason and purpose.
Small correction. A GFCI does not measure the current. It uses "one simple trick". When both hot and neutral wires pass thrugh the same current ransformer their magnetic fields cancel. The current transformer does not register any current. Only when there is an imbalance does the current transformer register a current. So effectivly the GFCI measures the imbalance of current, not the current itself.
good thing you were here to parrot what the fucking video just said...
Yeah, I wondered about this. I live in an older home. I had the fuse box upgraded to a proper breaker box about 15 years ago. I also have had to change outlets to GFCI around the bathroom and kitchen sink about 12 years ago. But I still run into issues with DYI electrical issues that I am not always sure if it is O.K. Since it is an older home, at some time (don't know when) extra wiring has been added to handle more modern appliances. One issue is a 30-amp wiring to a large window AC unit. The AC is the only thing on that circuit (nothing else upstream or downstream). However, testing all the outlets I found out that one is not grounded. However, all the normal 15-amp outlets throughout the home are grounded. The AC unit itself has a breaker on the plug (so my understanding is that essentially acts like a GFCI to the unit itself). The outlet has a 3-prong outlet with an open ground. I was not sure if this was safe with no ground. Even though the cord has a breaker, I should still probably install a GFCI to prevent possible elicitation (especially being 30-amp).
excellent explanation. Our home inspector did highlight for us that, while recepticles had been changed from 2-prong to 3-prong (not GFCI) the underlying wires had not been changed. He described this as "common". (No label, either.) He did recommend GFCIs be put in wet areas. Based on your and other youtube input, we will be letting him know he is not giving the best advice to potential home buyers.
Yes, when you do not have a ground wire it is always GFCI. The wet rule is for new installations with a ground wire.
Great Info! Clarity is paramount!!
Thank you! I couldn’t figure out why my GFCI tester wasn’t making it trip while testing it.
Thank you for all your very informative clips and outstanding presentations. I did use your Amazon link to order several of your recommended tools.🔌
From Buffalo, N.Y. Thank You explaining this. It does most certainly help.
Great! You mentioned how to replace other two prong outlets in the circuit after the GFCI, by connecting them to the load terminals. That was a bit of info I've sought for long time. At 5:30, you showed the cover plate for a normal three prong outlet with the two labels. That three prong outlet would have no ground wire, but would still be protected by the upstream GFCI.
By code, GFCI’s must trip between 4-6 mA’s. A Hubbell rheostat type tester is a great tool to properly test a GFCI. It ranges from 1-7 mA, 1 mA at a time so when it pops, you know exactly what mA set it off. Anything less than 4 mA that trips it is considered a nuisance. Anything over 6 mA is not enough protection.
Toss the GFCI for a new one if it’s outside the 4-6 mA range.
By code, apostrophes aren't used to form plurals.
@@alistair1978utube They're just being possessive..................(On my period, don't judge me!)
@@alistair1978utube who the blank cares. The point is made . Go and teach all the Hispanics to speak English you would be better off. There are hundred's of reason's why!. 73
@@alistair1978utube who cares. We get the meaning.
@@sherrykendrick1765 people with an IQ over 90 usually care about getting things right...
I already knew the answer to the poll because I watched your 2 prong to gfci install before doing it myself 💪
Actually, the GFCI will most likely be grounded via the neutral wire.
@@millomweb I feel like you responded to the wrong person
Thank you for another great video. the information you provide is so precise and to the point.
I immediately subscribed because you answered the question immediately instead of stringing it out
I didn't know about the tester not working w/o a ground, thanks. Also, the GFCI has to be installed in the location closest the the breaker in order to protect all outlets upstream.
Great explanation , I learned something today( The more you know the more you know you don't know).
Cheers. Ive got one that has a load output on the back, but only had two wire inputs for that outlet, didnt seem right. Didnt know if i had to short the input ground to load ground.
Thanks. You got my subscription. I have a home built pre1860
My 1961 home in Thousand Oaks had two prong receptacles. Installed GFI's on two wire wiring.
They are now highly recommending gfci/afci for these scenarios, more safety coverage. I would love to hear you take on that or if you already covered it provide the CZcams link. By the way, great channel.
Nicely put.
Slow & clear. Thanks
You did a great job explaining this. 👍🏼
Very clear explanation. Do i need to ground my whole house or gfci in garage outlet?
Excellent and very thorough explanation. Thank you.
You bet!
Great video, can't thank you enough for breaking things down to simple explanations. Would you then recommend replacing 2 outlets over to 3 prong GFCI over using the 3 prong adapters for safety? (if you have an old house like you mentioned)
yes. if you know the circuits aren't using combined neutrals, and you have a newer model breaker panel, you can use GFCI breakers - or better yet, combination GFCI.AFCI breakers, since older homes frequently use circuit designs that would have you needing to put a GFCI in every receptacle location.
Great vid. Another point to consider is that gfci should never be used in series on the same circuit. If multiple gfci’s are to be on the same circuit they must be connected to the line side to line side NOT load side to line side. Or else the most upstream gfci will trip and be a nuisance. Nice.
note that daisy chaining GFCIs will not cause malfunctions - it will just be annoying because a fault may trip multiple devices.
Outstanding electrical education and explanations!
An excellent discussion of the issue. Thanks for this video.
67% I got it wrong too! Thanks for another excellent and informative video.
I have a house from the 1960s and many (but not all) outlets do NOT have a ground, and I am glad to learn a GFI will make the circuit at least more safe if not entirely as safe.
Great video - useful and well explained info. Thank you!
Great video! You mentioned the duplex outlet that run from the load side for GFCI protection - Im looking to do this, do have a video detailing that by chance? Half of my house is ungrounded and looking to do that.
Just Like to add to your good info. Many look at the Hot Leaking or touching to ground as the Cause of Tripping, Neutral touching ground will also cause it to Trip, as Ground would be carrying Current. Hot and Neutral need to Draw Equal, any Difference, then they Trip.
Excellent, thank you for the refresher ! 👍👍👍👍👍
Thanks for this awesome video!!!! Quick question. So if I am using a GFCI on an ungrounded outlet, I shouldnt get electricuted if I plug a heating pad into the same outlet correct?
You would not get electrocuted even without it. It always requires an equipment fault for the risk to actualize. With a GFCI the power is cur before you get a dangerous shock. It may still sting.
Very good information, thanks!👍👍.
Thanks for the simple explanation. My remaining question is: does one GFCI on each circuit protect any remaining two-prong outlets on the same circuit? Or would each outlet need to be replaced with a GFCI in order to provide that level of protection? Thank you!
Important and very well explained, well done.
Your exactly right been saying this for years ground is good but GFCI reads between hot and neutral not ground and will trip if different amps between hot and neutral 5 Mil amps! Back in the day sharing neutral with another phase will not work with GFCI Breaker . Example A Phase pulls 12 amps on its own so Neutral pulls the same 12 amps GFCI WILL NOT TRIP. But if you share Neutral with B phase that pulls 10 amps the Neutral will have 2 amps on it the difference between the two loads , the GFCI sees this as a fault and will trip since A phase hot has 12 amps on it and the Neutral will only have 2 amps since is sharing the 10 amp B phase load
HOPEFULLY.... this video will inspire home owners of older homes, to install GFCI's!!!
Great video just want to say that first and foremost. An inspector or engineer would say a hot to ground scenario is not a short it’s a ground fault. A short is hot to hot OR hot to neutral. However, I’m a field guy so I’d say that’s bulls***. Thank you for this video and nice for explaining the plug tester not tripping if there’s no EGC. Cheers mate!
Very interesting video. I woulda been a part of the 66% but now I’m the 33% who know better. Thankyou!
Thanks for the information is very helpful.
Box clearance is an issue in my old home, as is the fear of damaging these old wires. An electrician said that replacing my breakers with combination arc-fault/GFCI breakers might be a good idea, however I thought the lack of a ground wire negated that?
Thank you. You answered all my questions
Hi thanks for the video. I'll be installing an electric shower head in Mexico. Fairly sure the heating unit doesn't have any internal short/trip protection. The house is brand new but no idea on how up to code it is in terms of proper neutral. Theoretically Will the GFCI without ground be enough for safety to trip protection if something goes wrong with the unit/water gets in the circuit etc
Great video! Had a fee questions. I have a home that was built in 1955 and had a lot of thise two prong outlets that were replaced with 3 prong outlets. Some of the circuits have a ground back to the panel and some don't. Most outlets were converted from one gang to two gang. There are also some outlets added to existing circuits via metal junction boxes that are not grounded because there were no grounds to bond the box. These GFCI sound like they could make my situation safer. I will replace the breaker though instead of individual outlets so the whole circuit is protected. If I put the GFCI breaker in will circuits that have ungrounded metal junction boxes be protected as well as any otjer ungrounded outlet. Also, can I continue to use the 3 prong outlets with no grounds as long as I have a GFCI breaker in and I label the outlet "not grounded"? In other words does the gfci have to be in the outlet because of the 3 prongs or is the gfci breaker ok?
This jackass wont know.
I tried to install a Leviton GFCI in my home - which is wired with old BX and relies on the armor to ground out the metal boxes. In this particular location, a bathroom, some moron had mounted the box flush to the STUD and so there was a layer of drywall and a layer of ceramic tile in front of it ... so the outlet had to float way off the box. Because of this, you couldn't get a reliable ground from contact with the box. My experience is that, in this situation where the GFCI was not connected to ground, the device would not energize ... it would trip as soon as you put power to it and would not reset. I had a box of these GFCIs and tried three different devices and all had the same behavior. In the end, I ran a screw into one of the holes in the back of the metal box, put a ring terminal on a piece of ground wire, and connected that to the ground terminal of the GFCI - problem solved and all worked as expected. So, I think at least some of these devices require a ground connection.
Good info here.Thanks.
You forgot about a few places like Cook County Illinois where we use metal conduit and Romex is prohibited. The metal conduit acts as ground and is routed back to the Fusebox as such. In situations that have flexible metal conduit over 6ft or over a specific amperage you must run a dedicated ground back to the nearest rigid conduit metal box.
Thank you my friend you have been a great help.
well done! Nicely explained. Thank you.
Great explanation. Thank you
I live in an old house. GFCI protection is quite important.
Most folks do not understand just what a GFCI does!
The device is a comparator. It looks at current loss between the hot and neutral.
Having a grounded power source is naturally the best.
A GFCI will trip on a few milliamperes of loss.
Interesting to see that they may need to be replaced regularly. Yep. Low cost may mean Chinesium.
Fabulous Video.
THank you, Sir.
I have a ridiculous situation here. We have an old house in Pittsburgh probably 110 years old and i really love learning about all things electrical and feel i totally missed my calling so thank you for all your informative videos! ANYWAY, I popped open an old outlet here with what looked like a ground wire BUT some sneaky SOB 😸 had simply ran a copper wire from that outlet to another outlet directly on the other side of that wall. Now, I'm wondering if i should do the same with the GFCI outlets I'm about to install or if i should completely just yank that "wanna-be ground wire" out of the wall? Will it even serve any purpose? Everytime i think I've seen it all in this house, i find something new to shock and awe 😸. Hopefully not shock, literally though 😹. Thank you again!!!
That wannabe ground was likely legal when it was done, but it was usually done to a water pipe. Code has changed, in part because plastic pipe is so common even in Reno’s. The only way to be sure is to ask a local inspector, who’ll likely say leave it alone, just don’t do any more. Do NOT do it with the gfci outlets, it’s totally unnecessary.
Once an outlet is protected by a GFCI the only reason to have a real ground is to provide a quiet ground reference for high end audio equipment or amateur radio.
A very good video. My local electrical contractor inslalled GFCI, telling me it provided Ground. After that installation, I contacted the company owner to tell him I actually wanted Ground, not just GFCI, to my outlets. He insisted that GFCI provided Ground. Did he lie or is he incompetent? Doesn't matter. Needless to say, I will not be doing further business with that outfit.
In my 175yr old house I use the GFI replacement w/o ground all the time (don't forget the stickers on the downstream outlets too). The only issue with not having the ground is for surge protection strips; there is no path for the surge to go to, so basically useless. The only place I rewired back to the breaker box is where I had electronics (TV, computer, etc.) was going to be "permanently” placed.
Thank you. I was wondering about this just the other day.
You bet 👍
The ground to a GCFI will most likely be provided by the neutral wire. If not then a GFCI is not needed !
There's a Technology Connections video that goes into detail about how GFCIs work that's quite good.
Outstanding explanation. Thank you!
Thanks!
Great explanation
Where in the NEC does it state we need to have these two stickers? I was unable to find it. And I love your channel. Thanks.