How to Wire a GFCI Outlet without a Ground Wire in an Older Home.
Vložit
- čas přidán 17. 02. 2021
- Wiring a GFCI Outlet in an older home that does not have a ground wire and still have protection against ground faults that can cause electric shock. This method is approved by the NEC Electrical Code and assures older homes to have GFCI protection in the required areas, including the Kitchen, Bathroom, Garage, and Outdoor areas. GFCI Outlets are an essential device in all homes, and are required for home inspections, and home electrical system upgrades. DIY Electrical Wiring from an Electrician. Complete with easy to understand wiring examples, and an easy to follow process which is explained by a licensed electrical contractor.
- Jak na to + styl
Thank you! This is just what I needed. Great video.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you..
You make Electrical repairs make sense to the novice. God bless you all.🤓👍
Thank you Richard, Glad to help!
I have an older home and your video answered my questions about grounding. I will pick a different location for my GFCI.
Glad I could help!
Thank you. You are very good at covering salient points related to the GFCI. I just protected my family with your assistance. Bless you!
Thank You - I'm Glad it was helpful for you and your family!
Only video out of the many that I watched that fixed my gfci install issue. Thank you.
You're welcome!
This video was very helpful. My Aunts house is an older home built in 1945. And it seems to not have a ground. I appreciate your time.😎😎
Not when it is done correctly.
Had a fuse panel in my garage that was condemned by the insurance company Georgia Pacific.
Had fuse panel installed inside because of code changes had to move main shut off outside.
Electricians added a panel underneath my electric meter.
It only has three Breakers a 30 amp double pole for my generator a double pole 20 amp for my pool pump a 20 amp single pole for my pool light which or both GFI.
The problem I'm having every time you touch the fuse panel the gfi's trip. I replace the wiring for the pump and the light because it was in cast iron piping and rusted-out.
You can literally touch the metal cabinet and the breakers will trip. Trying to figure out because all the breakers are still inside the garage is that considered my main cabinet or is that the sub-cabinet from this one with the main shut off.
This one has the neutral and the grounds tied together no separate Ground Bar.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
This video in priceless. Thank you.
Thank you very much Matzi!
Great information thank you for helping so many of us learn
Your Welcome!
Very good explanation of what was happening and what to do and what not to do clear and concise subcribed. Thanks
Thank You - Glad it helped
Thank you for the great lesson
Glad you liked it!
This video was excellent. Thank you so much!
Thank you for watching!
Thanks. I always wondered if a GFCI would work without a ground
Happy to help
Some older homes from the 50’s and 60’s have a shared ground wire running to the bathrooms and kitchen, but the ground is combined with the neutrals in the sub-panel (sub-panels of this vintage typically did not have a ground running to the main panel). I’d say in this case it’s OK to use the ground wire when adding a GFCI outlet and the homeowner should consider a sub-panel upgrade or add a bonded ground bar in the sub-panel with a ground running to the main or metal water pipe (main panel of this vintage were typically grounded to the water pipe entering the home).
It is always best to upgrade the wiring system and have the required grounding installed according to current codes.
Wow, I had not seen the bootleg ground, but it's something to look for... thanks!
You bet!
@@AskTheElectrician If I am correct, one of the bootleg ground circuits is just a death waiting to happen. Handyman Dave decides to fix up his dad's old Milwaukie "Sabre Saw", metal body, lovely device.
Dave lovingly takes it apart, decides to update it a bit with a new power cord, but decides to use a grounded one, after all, it's the responsible thing to do he says to himself, he attaches the ground to the metal body, the idea being if the hot should come in contact with the body it immediately shorts to ground tripping the breaker, good idea. In theory.
But then some jagoff goes and installs a bootleg ground, Handyman Dave finishes his repair, takes the tool over to the outlet with the bootleg ground, plugs it in.
Unknown to Handyman Dave, he has now connected the body of that saw to the neutral wire of the circuit, neutral and hot are sitting there waiting to make contact, Dave pulls the trigger, fast forward an hour or two and Dave is researching the idea of double insulation and wonders what it will cost to have an electrician rewire his house correctly...
This about right?
@@BestLittleStudio They are not inherently dangerous. It was the standard way of grounding in many countries. Sure one should not do things that are against the local code. The main problem is interference it can cause because of stray currents that can go through data lines.
The most important safety issue is that some people do it incorrectly and create a reverse bootleg ground.
@@okaro6595
What data lines?
Good teaching video. Thank you.
You are welcome!
Excellent Information thanks alot 👍
My pleasure
Great video for the DIY, it's insane how much handyman work is done out there, wouldn't be a problem if it was done the right and safe way. Some are very dangerous to the tenants.
Well said, and I am glad you enjoyed the video.
Got same old house, installed a gcfi with 2 wires but the little green indicator light don't come on , any idea why it's not on?
Great video !!!
Thanks!
great video!
Thanks!
Great video that answered most of my questions. Currently remodeling a bathroom and the old outlet will now be too near the new sink, so I'm having to move it at least a foot away from the sink. The house is not grounded so I was looking for info about installing a GFCI in the bath to replace a standard outlet. Thanks for the informative video on this subject.
Glad it was helpful!
John, if there are other receptacles on that circuit (another bath, bedroom, garage,etc), then the GFCI receptacle should replace the receptacle that is closest to the breaker panel. This gives GFCI protection to everything downstream on that circuit. This is actually a manufacturer’s recommendation. To meet code you need to label all the faceplates downstream with ‘both’ the “GFCI protected” label and the “No equipment ground” label.
great video well explain thanks
Thanks JR, Glad it was helpful!
See more at ask-the-electrician.com
See you there!
Thanks for the video.
You are welcome!
Thank you sir great video!!!!!
Very welcome
Thank you brother
Your Welcome!
MUY BUENO AMIGO THANKS
Glad to help you!
Excellent information 👍👍👍
Many many Thanks, Martin!
Great video answered my question about 2prong recept. replaced with a 3 prong receptacle. the ground was connected to the neutral side. Still when testing with a my tester from hot side to ground I still read 118 volts . I was told this is a safe way they use to change 2prong receptacle to 3 probg receptacle
Just be sure that a jumper wire is NOT installed between the ground screw terminal on the outlet and the neutral of the outlet, as this is not allowed.
Great video. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Im learning
Glad to help
This is by far the best video of explaining something I've ever seen especially when it comes to electrical issues.
You are clear, well spoken your voice stays at the same level throughout. You got to the point and stayed on topic never once bringing up personal life or the person that did things wrong.
Some people would have made a hour long video covering the same subject. Thank you for that.
With that being said you wouldn't sleep a wink in my home. It was built in 1954 and dad bought the house in 65 and I was a year old.
I've lived here all but 15 yrs of my life.
It still has an old 6 circuit w/range fuse panel. I've learned what and what not to do. One example is I know I can't run the microwave and the toaster at the same time or I'll be replacing a fuse.
You're video taught me I can make it just a bit more safe though. I didn't know you could use a GFCI outlet without a ground and so yes over the years I've replaced most of the outlets with 3 prong outlets that are not grounded.
Changing these out for a GFCI outlet will be the least I can do but it's going to be the first thing I start with.
Thank you again
Hi LH, and Thank You for your kind comments!
When updating an older home start with the basics to bring the home up to code especially with AFCI and GFCI protection and smoke detectors, then upgrade the panel and circuit wiring a you are able.
Hope tp see you at my website: ask-the-electrician.com
@@AskTheElectrician You're welcome and yes I'm one step ahead with the smoke detectors and I have two fire extinguishers in the house as well. I really believe in fire extinguishers. I have one in my car, one in my daughter's car, one on my bike and one I'm my shop. Those can mean the difference in a small burn spot somewhere and you're whole livelihood being turned into a pile of ashes.
very educational
Thank You
I'm a DIYer and am installing circuits in the basement of my 1955 house. I opened the box of an existing branch to a GFCI which looks to have been installed within the last 10 years or so. There was no ground wire and completely accessible old NM cable, so it must have been a quick fix to replaced an existing outlet. But to my shock (no pun intended) on the GFCI the neutral was jumpered to the ground and to the metal box. And I'm sure this was done by an electrician.
Jumper wires on an outlet from the ground screw to the neutral connection point on the same outlet should be removed.
Need to have shown the back of the outlet before install when you explained where you put the wires. Great video
Thanks, and keep in mind that you can see more at the website:
ask-the-electrician.com
See you there!
Nice video...
Thank You!
Thank you this was very easy to understand what’s going on inside old homes wiring. I do not have a ground and I think I’m thinking about upgrading the 100 amp panel box to a 200 amp and thought I would have to rewire the whole house to include a ground to all outlets. What is the best way for me to find what I would need to do without getting taken for a ride. 😊
Glad it helped you. Be sure to have smoke detectors and AFCI protection as well as GFCI outlets in the required areas.
So far, this is the clearest video explanation I have watched, so THANKS! I'm trying to install a GFCI outlet in a bathroom. The outlet shares a box with a dimmer switch. The wiring is romex circa late 1960s or early 1970s. Is there any reason why I should or could not replace the old outlet with a GFCI?
No - a GFCI outlet may be installed no matter how old the wiring is as long as the existing outlet wiring is in working condition and the wires can be identified.
@@AskTheElectrician Thank you for sharing your knowledge! I truly appreciate it.
Great video, Thanks for making it.
But if there are multiple outlets on one breaker only the one closest to thje panel should get the GFCI outlet?
Yes - Ground Fault protection is provided for all the outlets and other devices on the same circuit when a GFCI Outlet is installed in the first position on the circuit, and wired correctly with the proper Line and Load connections. The same is true for installing a GFCI circuit breaker, all of the circuit is protected for ground fault. Also note that only one type of GFCI protection is necessary for each circuit.
At 9:55 - how did you test the ground wire to see whether it is an actual ground?
Also, when adding the GFCI outlets, should there only be one per circuit from the main panel?
Thx,
I find your videos very educational, thank you. My daughter recently purchase an older home in Sacramento, California with outlets that are not ground, in fact there is no ground. Can I run a ground wire from the panel outside, under the house through the crawl space to every outlet in the house? . Thank you.
Thank you Alvaro, I'm glad you find my videos helpful!
Yes - a ground wire may be installed from the main panel to various outlets of a circuit. Be sure the ground system at the main panel has been installed properly as well.
@@AskTheElectrician i am impressed, not only that you answered my question but you went through and answered every question for this video. Thank you so much.
Great video I have questions
Go ahead!
This video is wonderful. Thank you. Question: I have an older 50s home, plaster/lath, with small electrical boxes. I dont think the normal gfci will fit in them. Is it possible to find smaller gfci outlets that might fit. My wires are cloth covered like your video. I dont want to kostlevthem too much. They are delicate and unravel easily. Can i find and use a small AFC outlet? Would that work as a replacement for ungrounded 2 prong outlets?
Thank you for watching. Take care when installing a GFCI outlet in a smaller outlet box.
I have question which just recently I was going to replace a old 2 prong outlet with a GFCI. But I stop cause what I have is 2 black wire (I wasn’t able to check for which is hot) and one Neutral white faded looking wire. No ground wire. My question is how do you work with something like this? Much thanks for your videos. Very educational and understanding.
We typically identify the wiring by testing using either a non-contact voltage tester, or if necessary we use a voltage tester and an external wire that is attached to a known ground source, such s a water facet or water pipe. Once the wiring has been identified then we can make the proper connections.
Very helpful video, thank you!! I installed a two GFCIs on a circuit in my older home. One tests fine with a three prong tester but another tests as "no ground". Could that be expected?
Yes because this method does dot include a ground wire.
That one needs the sticker.
I've seen a lot of these ground/neutral jumpers....and many corresponding panels do not have both bus bars bonded. Seen several 220 outlets jumped too especially dryers...but the neutral bus bars were bonded in the panel.
Yes - it is unfortunate that there have been a lot of installations of electrical panels and devices that are not correct. One of our goals is to teach others how these things should be done right.
Good clear video. If I find the metal box that houses the outlet shows a ground via the BX conduit and I hook it up box to GFI ground screw , is it still necessary to label the plate?
A label is not necessary if there is a ground wire or properly bonded ground path that is present.
Thanks, I just did this on an old basement 2-wire outlet. It cleared up what "no equipment ground" means, it just means no protection for sensitive equipment, people are still protected. But as I understandit, BX or metallic cable with no green ground wire does provide grounding through the armored cable itself back to the panel. When you replace a regular 2 prong outlet with a 3 prong, contact with the outlet box does provide a ground, I don't really understand why the same principle does not provide sufficient grounding for a GFCI.
There are several different types of flex conduit and fittings. Some are approved as a means of grounding when installed properly and by using the correct approved fittings and methods as specified by the NEC Code. if in doubt, then install a separate ground wire and use the appropriate boxes, fittings and methods as approved by the NEC Code with has been adopted in your specific area.
Excellent video! May I ask if rather than a ground fault outlet in the branch circuit, is it ok to assume someone could install a GFI(?) Breaker and that would cover the entire circuit? It's a bit more $$ but it seems quick and easy.
Your thoughts?
Yes, absolutely - a GFCI Circuit Breaker is definitely an option to protect the entire circuit.
@@AskTheElectrician what about just putting a gfci plug upstream on the branch
Great video. I’ve been replacing all of my 2 prong outlets to grounded outlets. The previous owner did not install any of the ground wires or change out the two prong.
Most of my newly replaced outlets now show as grounded. However, some of the outlets are showing as no ground even with the ground wire attached.
Is this because the ground wire is not actually grounded?
It could be - and the only way to know for sure would be to check to see if the ground wires are spliced together at each outlet box, and if the ground wire is properly connected at the panel.
Never would I have thought to jumper a wire from the neutral to the ground. That even sounds like a way to gets someone killed.
Your right Darrius - installing a jumper wire from the ground to the neutral on a receptacle outlet is definitely not the way to do it, and it has hazardous potentials.
@@AskTheElectrician That's known as a bootleg ground.
That is how grounding in many countries have been done earlier. All my grounded outlets are done that way.
@@AskTheElectrician Is this the reason why I sometimes get shocked in the shower?
@@JoshR512 possibly a wire touching the drain pipe
Great video, I've a similar situation but I didnt know until im selling the house.
I've bought a tester and it seems like some of my outlets showing no ground wire, in the same room I have mix of two one showing correct wiring and one showing no ground wire. Now in my case do I chnage them all to 2 pronged including the ones that are showing it's correct or only change the ones that are showing no ground?
If a ground wire is not part of the circuit wiring, or a ground wire is not attached to the outlet box, then a non-grounded two prong outlet should be installed.
Thank you Ask-The-Electrician!~ OUTSTANDING VIDEOS, Learning a bunch!~ I have a few questions if I may... 1)What kind of analog device are you using to trip the GFCI? That's Not a multimeter right? 2)What if there is No sink or anything that is grounded, how then can you test out your GFCI to trip? 3)I'm remodeling an old small house with no ground, each of the outlets only has the hot and neutral wires through the house. Does this mean that each of these outlets are run on there own circuit? 4) The bedroom doesn't need GFCI correct? If so would it be okay to just replace the 2 prong outlets with normal 3 prong outlets, not GFCI's? 5) I have one of those KLEIN RT210 GFCI OUTLET TESTER PLUGS to trip the GFCI, and it's Not tripping any of these GFCI outlets I recently installed, though it does say on the back of it FOR 3 WIRE OUTLET ONLY. It does trip the GFCI's at my house that has ground wires just fine I should add. Thank you so much for all your time and awesome videos!!!!~
Great questions Joseph. The 3-wire GFCI tester you have only works where there is a ground wire as part of the circuit. A ground source must be provided for testing the GFCI outlet, so I typically locate a ground source such as a cold water metal pipe and create a temporary test cable, and then I test using an analog tester, and test from the ground wire to the power side of the outlet and this will trip the GFCI outlet.
Keep in mind that there are Several of these topics covered at ask-the-electrician.com.
See you there!
@@AskTheElectrician HEY, Thank you Very Much. I'm checking out your website now, and i'll watch all your videos and keep learning!~ I watched this video a few times already and keep picking up new things. When you say test cable, do you mean like a long ground wire attached to the metal pipe and ran along to the outlet in question to trip test?
Great video! At 8:36 you put them both to the line side. I'm curious as to why you didn't check to see if one of them was a load side?
The circuit wiring was tested before hand to reveal the power source, which is installed on the Line side as noted.
Hello, very nice video. I have an older home built in 1955. Most of the receptacles were two prong with no grounds however some are 3 prong with no ground. I'm not sure why some of the wiring has a ground wire on it and some doesn't. Looks to be older wire similar to what's in this video. There are also outlets in the house that were converted from one gang to two gang with the 3 prong outlets and no ground. There are outlets that were also added to existing circuits via a metal junction box but the box isn't grounded. I figure the easiest way to fix the problem would be to look in the panel and trace the wiring and see which circuits are grounded and which ones aren't. Can i put a GFCI breaker in the panel and will that protect everything in that circuit that isn't grounded? Even if it's a circuit that was tapped with a metal junction box? I think a GFCI breaker would be cheaper in the long run than individual GFCI receptacles. Will a GFCI breaker trip on a circuit that shorts with no ground?
Thanks for the complement - Yes, a GFCI circuit breaker will protect the whole circuit and trip off if a ground fault is detected.
I circumstances like these; I generally install a GFCI breaker in the panel to protect the entire circuit. I then place the labels on each outlet for no ground and for gfci protected.
Yes - that works as well, the only draw back is having to go to the panel to reset the breaker if there is a fault at any of the outlets.
@Ask-The-Electrician I do it that way because I know there is a good ground at the panel and feel that it may be a little better if the gfci can take full advantage of the the way the device was designed.
That is better as it protects also if the live wire touches an ungrounded metal box.
Wow who did the prior wiring? Not quite as bad as finding spliced wires covered only by painters tape that has fallen apart, but pretty bad! That bare wire bootleg ground was especially choice.
LOL - Yes - We see all varieties of wiring out there, pretty incredible!
That's what keeps us busy!
Enjoyed the video., thanks. If a receptacle has no visible ground wire would it be acceptable to place the voltage tester probe in the hot side and then touch the other probe to the receptacle box to see if that is grounded (seeing current) and then if it is just install a ground wire from the receptacle to the box itself? Thx
Yes, absolutely - that will definitely work.
Just asking, would running a ground wire to the back of the metal box to the ground-wire area on the GFI have any benefit? Probably not as the metal box is just nailed to a wooded stud.
I have all two wire wiring in my 1955 built home and need to install a GFCI with a switch/outlet combo. The current switch controls the bathroom light over the vanity mirror and I want a socket under the switch to plug in a shaver etc.
If a ground wire is installed properly then it would be best for the ground wire to be installed into the box where it may be bonded and connected to any electrical device which is inside the box.
Being that your is tutorial, you should have demonstrated connecting the wires into the back of the receptacle proper attachment, testing security that it doesn’t pop out just so people have a full description of how things are actually done.
Thanks for the tip
Thanks for the video. Discovered that that my GFCI outlets in my bathroom are not actually grounded, even though they aren't labeled. More confusing was the GFCI outlet had a ground wire to it, but it was coming from the newer, downstream wiring that was tapped into the line side of the outlet. The supply was 2 wire, so no real ground. Those jumper wires for ground are insane. Makes me wonder if some of my grounded outlets are actually grounded. If there was a jumper, would it test ok with one of those simple wire outlet testers as being grounded, even though it really isn't? Also, could you just leave the grounded outlet (jumper removed if present, of course) and then label the cover plate as "no equipment ground"?
Thanks for your comment Bryan. The Plug-In circuit analyzers give an accurate reading, and they are used by many inspectors and electricians. If a ground wire is not providing a path to ground, or is not working then either a two-wire outlet should be installed, or a GFCI outlet may be installed where required as long as the label is placed showing that the outlet is not grounded. Sounds like a great time to check all of the outlets in your home to be on the safe side.
@@AskTheElectrician hey bub you ever heard of an ungrounded house using the cable line for a Ground and melting the silver metal device coming in off the pole cable wire, my cable guy told me to get the issue resolved before they hook the cable Ground wire back up, now my microwave and 750-1500 plug in heaters are acting stupid.
@@matt7iron The cable line will be carrying the cable signal, which is a small amount of voltage and even the shielding will carry a very small amount of voltage carried over from the cable signal. Neither are grounded and so any voltage overflow from your electrical system will leak all the way to the cable company and cause problems. Conversely, the "false" ground created by grounding to the cable will allow the cable signal to leak into some more sensitive appliances and cause erratic behavior. You should only use metal water or gas pipes as ground and do so as close to the service as possible where they are actually in contact with the ground.
The jumper wire does actually ground the outlet. It just is not up to the code. That method was in many countries the standard method to ground for decades. There are reasons it is not allowed. I do not think it is allowed anywhere anymore.
Very good video...it got me thinking about how this old house was grounded...does this mean these old houses don't have the copper rod that provides the ground connection in the breaker panel... or the ground rod was installed but bonded to the neutral...so anything in that house, particularly water pipes buried in the ground have the ability to conduct electricity from the hot line to the neutral through the "wrong path". I have seen electrical test on non bonded generators in where the hot cable comes into contact with a metal part of the equipment that you are powering with the genset...you can touch the metal...but you will not be zapped... as there is no path for the electricity to go back to the source. Can you explain?. Thanks.
The ground system for an older home was typically provided by the rigid metal cold water pipe, or a ground rod, or a combination of methods. However there are several methods for grounding a home panel, some of which are determined by the location and the ability to provide a proper ground system. The specific method of how an older home is grounded can only be determined on site after careful inspections.
The ground system for a generator will be determined based upon the type of generator and the installation, such as portable generator vs a permanently installed stand by generator, and of course how the manufacturer specifies how the generator is to be grounded and the method that is to be used. It really comes down to the specific application and the generator that will be used.
@@AskTheElectrician Good points. Having a partially grounded house is very bad since your body becomes a path for ☠️... I have used a Genset not bonded for many years..with bad extension cord sometime...the frame of the equipment can get to 120 volts.. you can touch it...but you will not be zapped. It will require that you also touch the neutral...in that case you have completed the path for ☠️☠️☠️ I believe that having the GFCi would not protect you since it will not detect the unbalanced current unless you bond N-G at the genset. Hence...a genset with GFCI needs to be bonded in order for the GFCi to work if not connected to the breaker panel???Thanks.
Do you need to hook a load side up if you are putting a gfci outlet in a bathroom? Especially since i don't necessarily need to to protect outlets downstream. I really just wanna protect against electrocution in the bathroom.
If GFCI protection is for only one outlet then the Load connections are not necessary.
I had to rewire from the circuit box to the new sump pump and put a gfci in and gnd to the circuit box. Now I did also have another line going to that circuit to a kitchen outlet next to the sink. But it is two wire. So I hooked it up to the load side of the gfci. Now do I mark it with a "grounded to gfci" or still mark it for "Not on a equipment gnd"?
The kitchen outlet that does not have a ground wire should be marked as Not having an equipment ground. Obviously it would be best if the sump pump was not sharing power with the kitchen outlet.
Thank you for serving our country!
At 8:24, you’ve placed both sets of wires in the “Line” side of the receptacle. Is there any advantage to doing this as opposed to switching on the breaker and finding the hot wire, then putting that into the “line” holes, then putting the other wires in the “load” holes? Will it cause any issues to place both sets of wires in the “Line” holes?
Great Question Jacob! When wiring only to the Line side the GFCI protection will work for the GFCI outlet location only, However if there are additional devices that need to be GFCI protected then the circuit wiring for these devices are attached to the Load terminals, And in this case - Yes, the Line and Load wires will need to be identified, especially the incoming circuit power wires which will be attached to the Line terminals, the remaining wires leading to the other devices requiring GFCI protection are attached to the Load terminals. Also, keep in mind that creating pigtail splices may be used as well depending on the number of wires that are used, and how much space there is inside the outlet box.
@@AskTheElectrician would be good to include that information in the video
I haven't checked your list but, do u have a playlist on conduit bending?
Not yet but working on several new videos!
If there is no ground wire, but it's a metal box, does it matter whether you connect a ground jumper from the GFCI to the box?
Connecting a ground wire from the GFCI Outlet to the box would also ensure the box to be protected by ground fault as well, but the main concern is to provide protection at the outlet.
An ungrounded metal box is dangerous. Whether you connect the wire or not in case of hot wire getting loose it can lead the voltage to the equipment case.
5:02 so will it read as grounded then even if it's not wired all the way to the main power point? And if so is this why you need to add a No equipment ground sticker ?
When a GFCI outlet is wired without a ground wire it will not test as having a ground path. However the GFCI will detect if there is an instance to ground that exceeds a normal condition and will trip off thereby providing ground fault protection. This is why the sticker is required, stating that there is No Equipment Ground.
Your so Awesome!! TY for your time your answer was very helpful bless you and have a fabulous day 🙏✌
What you didn’t mentioned is that even with a gfci installed, your gfci will show “open ground” because no ground wire connects to it.
Yes - and that is why the sticker has to be placed on this method of installing a GFCI outlet to indicate that the outlet is not grounded. What you are describing will be covered in my video about Testing Outlets - good observation.
I’m getting a “hot/neutral reversed” error, would this mean another issue down line?
Thank you for your instructional videos. They are very helpful.
Question: if the metal boxes are attached to metal conduit (e.g. Greenfield flexible metal conduit), would it be advisable to attach a ground wire from the box and to the GFCI receptacle, assuming of course that a voltage tester or outlet tester confirms that the conduit is grounded.
Yes - it is required to bond the ground terminal on the outlet to a metal box using a ground wire attached to an approved green ground screw.
Note: There are some outlets that have a copper bond between the mounting yoke bracket and the ground terminal screw, however this feature is not found with standard receptacle outlets.
Thank you for your kind remarks, I am glad my videos are helpful!
@@AskTheElectrician Thank you for the prompt reply. I really appreciate the feedback.
Hello! Came across your video as I’m trying to diagnose a ticking noise being given off by my guitars amplifier. I’ve plugged it in at other locations and it doesn’t make the noise. Also tested separate amp on same outlet and I’m getting the tick. It’s older home and I’m almost certain there is no ground wire. Pretty sure at some point someone replaced the two prong outlets with three prong ones and called it a day. My plan was to replace the outlet with a GFCI. Would replacing with GFCI ground the outlet as I hope it would, despite no ground wire being present? Thank you, great video
Before replacing the outlet you may consider trying to locate the source of the ticking. Keep in mind that a home has two lines of power where each line may serve power to other circuits in the home. You may try unplugging electronic devices in the home, one at a time and see if the ticking goes away, and then possibly plug that device into another outlet on another circuit. Another solution would be to obtain a good quality plug strip with noise suppression and voltage conditioning.
I hope this helps you - Happy Picking!
@@AskTheElectrician sure enough, I unplugged this ikea lamp with a dimming switch and the ticking was gone! Free lamp to an amp-less home.
Does the one that had two sets of wires then protect the rest of the outlets down the line from there? Is there an easier way to tell which one is first without physically looking at the wiring from the breaker box?
Yes - when the Line wires have been properly identified, and the GFCI outlet is wired correctly with the Line and Load terminations then the outlets down the line will be protected by the GFCI outlet.
If there is no ground wire going from the circuit breaker box should all outlets have GFCI outlets in the case? The outlets have three prong but no ground is present when tested. This video is very informative!
If outlets are not grounded from a source then two prong outlets should be installed, and GFCI outlets installed in required areas.
@@AskTheElectrician thanks for the reply! I just found out that the electrician installed GFCI outlets at the beginning of each circuit and from what I’m seeing that’s suitable. I do plan to have the house rewired later on so I think this is suitable for now.
@@gstrou86 That is just why they should be marked. If they have properly been marked "No equipment ground" and "GFCI protected".
"Attach the two wires to the line side of the GFCI",..I wasn't sure what this meant and didn't see a visual of it. The old two prong (ungrounded) receptacle had the white wire on the left side and the black on the right(as I face it) side. Are you saying that both white and black wire should be attached on the right side of the new GFCI receptacle? I was looking for a visual to confirmed this but couldn't find it.
Also, although you mentioned checking the polarity three times, I wasn't sure how you did this. Could you explain...
Thanks for the video,
Dan
Thanks for your Comments.
Please Visit ask-the-electrician.com for more detailed information.
We have an older home. Some of the wiring was replaced from the panel and is grounded. Could I run just a ground wire from the attic down to the outlets that were not updated?
A ground wire may be added to the outlets as long as the ground wire is connected properly and grounded to the main panel or a sub panel ground terminal.
Am I correct in assuming that when you replace an ungrounded 2-prong receptacle with a GFCI, and plug a circuit tester into the GFCI, the lights on the tester will still indicate the circuit is ungrounded? I have a tester that has 2 amber lights and 1 red light. With a normal, grounded, properly wired outlet, the 2 amber lights are lit and the red is off. When I plug it into the ungrounded GFCI, only one of the amber lights is lit, which indicates "open ground or neutral wire", which seems expected.
If the circuit wiring does not include a ground wire or ground path of any type then installing a GFCI outlet does not magically create a ground wire or ground path However what the GFCI will do is provide ground fault Protection if a Fault is ever detected by the ground fault device.
So based upon this, your plug in circuit analyzer is correct to indicate that there is an open ground, because a ground does not exist, as stated in your description.
I hope this helps you!
I have 2 wires. A black and white. I know black goes to brass but do I connect each line on each side at the top or one on top of right side and one on bottom of left side (diagonal)?
When there is only one set of wires, the wiring is attached to the Line side of the GFCI outlet.
At 11:24 how do you get away with not having a ground. My recent inspection pulled up some open ground receptacles in the bedroom. Does that need to be replaced with gfci or just a standard un grounded outlet.
That would depend on if the outlet circuit actually has a ground wire or not, and if so then the problem should be investigated and repaired. However if the circuit does not include a ground wire then the ungrounded 2 prong receptacles should be installed.
If I have no ground and add a gfci outlet and I plug a power strip with surge protector will the surge protector work even if it doesn’t have a ground ? The outlet area I want to have a smart power strip to control tv and a electric fireplace with uses a 3 prong 120v
Probably not, because the surge protector should require a ground wire connection for full protection.
What’s your thoughts on just grounding it to the metal box in the wall? I’ve always done that thinking it’s better than nothing I saw you just left it ungrounded.
If I can verify that there is a ground wire with the circuit from the panel then attaching the ground wire to the box and to the outlet is the correct method.
If a ground wire is attached to a metal box and the circuit from the panel does not include a ground wire then this would be a false ground.
You cannot ground it to a box. You should then ground the box. In fact a metal box is a safety hazard. If the live wire gets loose or the insulation breaks and the box gets the mains voltage the current will go through the ground wire to the equipment case and it goodbye. A GFCI does not protect against a fault that happens before it. This, however, happens even without any "grounding to the box" as the receptacle is connected to the box.
Do not improvise with the ground.
You cannot ground to a box that is not grounded. The only way that wire can push electricity is to the equipment case (like if the live wire gets damaged) but the screws used to connect the receptacle does it anyway. I have thought metal boxes meed to be grounded so one should change the box to a plastic one if it is not. That is much safer as you will not get killed if the live wire touches the box.
Never improvise with grounding!
I have a situation where 4 ungrounded outlets are in a series. Do I need to put a gfci in every recip box, or just the first one?
If all of the outlets are on the same circuit, a GFCI outlet may be installed at the first location of the circuit, and f the GFCI is wired with the Line and Load configuration then the GFCI will provide ground fault protection to the other outlets down stream on the same circuit.
Great video, can I install a GFCI outlet in an split circuit? When trying to replace the outlet in the kitchen, I found that it is a split circuit, so it has one black, one red, one neutral and ground.
On the same circuit or separate circuits? Is one connected to a switch?
@@ccyaltron the same circuit, there is not switch, it's basically two hot cables coming to the same outlet. The current outlet is split because they broke the metal bridge that connects the two gold connectors.
You can't split the GFCI outlet. You have to use only one of the circuits. Now if you did not specify if you have ground wires. If you do, you can of course add additional socket that uses the other circuit. Without ground wires that is not allowed.
In these circumstances where there is a metal box. Would it be of any purpose to install a ground tail (Equip. Grounding Jumper) from the outlet to the metal box?
If the metal box has been tested and it is grounded either internally or externally then yes, a pigtail ground wire should be attached and used.
@@AskTheElectrician Makes sense... Thank you!
My house was built in 1939, and has those cloth wrapped wires. GFCI receptacles are a lot larger then the original receptacle. Any tricks on getting a GFCI into those old style smaller boxes
Yes - the original boxes are very small so if the space is too small for the wires and the GFCI Outlet then a surface type electrical box, such as a Wiremold product may be installed by mounting an Extension box on the surface face of the existing box, and the extension box will provide more space for installing the GFCI Outlet. The only other option would be to carefully extract the existing box and replace it with a deeper single gang box, and this is possible, but it is very tricky and one has to be very careful. Also keep in mind that some of the GFCI Outlets are slightly smaller than before, or when comparing to another brand that you are considering which may be larger.
@@AskTheElectrician I will add this: some of these older homes don't have drywall because it was built before drywall was created. These older homes have plaster instead. I live in a home built in 1955. The original owner built the house himself, using plaster to finish the wall. My folks bought the home in 1961, before my older brother was born, and my sister was a baby. When I was in high school back in 1980, I had taken a class in Electronics and learned about house wiring and NEC Codes. My parents had me replace a double switch box that got rusted and damaged from a roof leak over our kitchen. That double gang box was next to the outside exit from the kitchen, and contained the wires to an outdoor backyard porch light and 1 of the light fixtures in the kitchen. I found it can be messy trying to replace a box, but worth the effort to do it yourself. I even found out that the old double gang box happened to be grounded from behind with a separate 12 gauge bare wire nailed to the box bracket and stud. I managed to carefully remove the box after breaking up the plaster carefully around the box, and route the ground wire into the new double gang box. The new double gang box was an expandable box which I nailed in place to the stud. I used new Romex clamps on the switch wires and routed the ground wire inside the box, grounding the box properly with a grounding machine bolt. At that time, new light switches did not have grounding screws, so I rigged a self grounder to ground the light switches to the box when screwed in.
By the way, the wall with the double gang switch box has the kitchen sink on it. Right near the switch on the next stud, I have an old grounded outlet inside a small box as well. That box was also damaged by the roof leak above the kitchen years ago. When we did a plaster repair to the wall decades ago, I saw the ground wire attached to the box bracket nailed to the stud as well. I currently have a GFCI and box ready to replace the old rusty box and the old grounded outlet. The challenge will be repairing the plaster around the box, once the new box and GFCI are in place. My community doesn't require me to put in AFCI/GFCI combinations in my kitchen; just the GFCI for now. I'm not about to install any "childproof" outlets either, even if NEC codes say they're required now, as I don't have children living in my house.
There is 1 thing I'm curious about: do you know if NEC code back in 1955 required that light fixtures exposed to the outdoors such as porch lights were required by code to be grounded? I have 2 outdoor porch lights, one on a wall with plumbing on it, and grounded per fixtures on walls with water pipes and the other on a wall with no water pipes and sinks. I have no way of testing to find out if the front porch light is grounded or not. I do know my back yard porch light is grounded because an electrician tapped the fixture box to install an outdoor outlet to power a water softener back in 1964. The walls the front porch light is on have no exposed plumbing fixtures.
We have a 100+ year old house and the electrical is a pain. In our breaker panel the Neutral and Ground buss is just one terminal strip, they are not separate. I can not get a GFI breaker or outlet to work on it. Any suggestions.
At the main electrical service panel the neutrals and grounds are bonded at the same terminal strip. For the GFI breaker make sure to test it without a load or the circuit wire connected. This may help you see if there is a problem in the wiring of the circuit.
Can you use a GFCI switch/outlet combo with this wiring?
a Combo Switch Outlet will protect the same way, however it will only protect the single outlet.
At 8 minutes in where there are two sets of wires coming into the box , could you not use pigtail wires from the common and neutral wires to complete the circuit and protect that one receptacle location ?
Yes - the wiring method you have described will protect that one outlet. Examples of this and other projects are found on ask-the-electrician.com
In my living room I tested an outlet with my fluke meter that reads 121.5. What type of amps and voltage of an outlet should I replace it with ? The old outlet crumbled into peices.
Replacement outlets should be the same as the original outlets. If in doubt then the outlet circuit amperage should be identified at the electrical panel which provides the circuit.
You can see much more information at ask-the-electrician.com
See you there !
In the one work box with 4 wires don't you have to use a pigtail?
It depends on how the GFCI will be wired. It can be wired to protect only the gfci outlet, or protect all of the circuit from that point out. This is why it is important to understand how the Line and Load features work with a GFCI outlet.
See the website for more details.
ask-the-electrician.com
you connected to the line side of GFCI #2 from the load side of GFCI #1 ??
For wiring GFCI Outlets with various configurations you may consider the following: ask-the-electrician.com/GFCI-Receptacles.html
This will help you - see you there!
If you have an ungrounded outlet and a fault occurs in an appliance, will this both energize the appliance and the outlet itself?
If there is a Ground Fault that is detected with a GFCI outlet then the GFCI will trip off the power to the outlet.
What does the multimeter set to when checking the GFCI for grouding
A plug in circuit analyzer is very useful for testing for ground, and other circuit conditions.
I pulled out an old electric outlet, to replace it with a GFCI.
I accidentally touched some part of the old outlet while removing it on the metal box, and saw a small spark. (I thought the fuse was out, but maybe I had the wrong fuse out).
Now, I am reading 14 volts from hot to neutral, and from hot to the metal box(ground). I've pulled every fuse in the panel, and still see 14 volts!
Note, the outlet was working fine before my accident (although the hot/neutral were reversed).
What did I do break when that old receptacle sparked? Did I burn/short a wire, or junction? How do I find the problem. I cannot use continuity tests since I have 14 volts present. Help!
At the main panel the main fuses should be checked to see if one has blown, if so it should be replaced with the same type fuse.
I just bpught a 1948 house. It has cables with two conductors, each cloth wrapped, but both black. All the outlets are 2-prong (no ground) and there are no ground wires in the boxes. There are GFCIs in the kitchen and bathroom, but my outlet tester says "no ground" (of course) and "Hot/Neutral reversed". The outlet tester won't go into the 2-prong outlets because there's no hole for the ground prong. How can I test the wiring to see which conductor is hot and which is neutral? I trying to figure out if the hot & neutral is swapped at the main panel or just at the GFCIs? I have a digital voltmeter.
In a case like this I use my non-contact volt tester, which is pretty accurate, however other wires in close proximity can interfere and cause a false reading. The most accurate way is to create a grounded test wire which is attached to a known metal water pipe, copper being the best, and then use this test wire. This will only work if the whole house has metal plumbing and if the main water service is metal as well, which is most likely rigid steel or galvanized water pipe.
When the outlet has two wires but is in a metal box connected with conduit and that metal box tests as a grounded, does that count as a good ground? A 3 prong tester showed it as "good".
I have one like that in my laundry room where i would like to install gfci, but wondering if that would need the ungrounded sticker?
When approved metallic conduit has been installed correctly and using the proper fittings to a properly grounded panel it may be used as the ground for the circuit. In this case, a ground wire should be attached to the GFCI outlet and attached to the metal box using a green grounding screw, and the ungrounded sticker will not be necessary.
Thanks! Um, secondary question, would bx metallic cabling be considered the same? I have a feeling not but I don't really know how bx is constructed.
@1:32 - Just watched this after Halloween and that scared me more than any of the movies we watched! And then I saw @5:30 and was too traumatized to continue. :-)
Was placing a AFCI/GFCI breaker in the panel to protect all these circuits an option instead of one-off outlets?
If the panel is old there may not be any gfci breaker available. New panel is possible, but an expensive option.
That is a very good point, and if an older home has a breaker panel then a GFCI breaker might be an option, but only if the circuit wiring was installed correctly, otherwise here will be nuisance trips on the GFCI breaker. The same is true for AFCI circuit breakers, which are a great idea for older homes with knob and tube wiring, if the circuit wiring will support the AFCI, such as no shared neutrals with other circuits.
I always have code enforcement familing me on inspections for GFCI having an open ground but I though they didnt have to have a ground. its not a simple fix they want me to independently and rewire all gfci easier said than done. does current code allow for GFCI to not be grounded?
Yes the code does allow a GFCI outlet to not be grounded, as stated in this video, the label has to be in place. The Ground Fault protection is still provided through the Ground Fault Outlet internal circuitry.
Just out of curiosity, why do you test on things that aren’t necessarily connected to the outlet at all? I’m gonna be doing some home renovation myself and I’m trying to acquire as much knowledge as I possibly can.
Testing a GFCI outlet to a grounded source, such as a water facet or drain, is one way to see if the GFCI device is working and will cause the ground fault device to trip off.
You already know after not one but two receptacles when you dont see a ground wire that there is a non grounded system. You could’ve gone out to the service and checked to see is there was a ground. A bond to a ground rod or to the water pipe or any other “grounding” means. Say a piece of rebar or something. Which I have seen before lol. Water pipe is not a sufficient ground. In that case you should change out the main service. Uninstall the main panel and install an updated grounded system. Ground rod ect. I would like to add. If there is no ground wiring throughout the house you would need to rewrite the house entirely. Don’t cut corners. Don’t be cheap.
Right
I have a 1950 home, in the kitchen is a 3 prong neweroutlet with 2 white wires on 1 side and 2 black wires on other side ,walt to put in gfce outlet, how can it be done?
Typically the wiring is tested and verified first, and then the GFCI outlet is installed and wired accordingly. More information is found on my website.
Working in an older home; 2 wire with no ground in a bathroom. Trying to add a GFCI with the line in, and then run from the load side to a dimmer switch for the light. I am unable to get the switch to function properly; after setting the GFCI, the light does power on, but no control from the dimmer switch, almost as if I have somehow wired the power to “bypass” the switch completely. At a loss.
Make sure the dimmer switch is compatible with the lamps in the light fixture. Also double check the Line and Load wiring to the GFCI outlet.
Great video. Thank you, I can see the added benefit now of a GFCI, even if the receptacle is un-grounded.
I was talking to an inspector before watching this video, so was ignorant on how GFCI's worked. That inspector said he tests GFCI with a plug in tester, and if it shows OPEN GROUND, it is a problem. I did not lnow enough to challenge that statement, bit now I think I could.
So, if an inspector does not pass a un-grounded GFCI (say when their plug in tester says OPEN GROUND, or, if the GFCI button in tester when pressed does not 'trip' the GFCI, and, even when receptacle is 'properly' labeled 'NO EQUIPMENT GROUND', and, even if it 'trips' the GFCI - when HOT prong is grounded to a water pipe, or other ground) - is there anything an owner can do to challenge the inspector for failing the GFCI?
PS: Can i use just a plain wire to test from the HOT slot in an outlet to the alternate ground (like a water pipe), or, would I have to use a 'analog device as in this video? Can a digital meter, set on 'Volts AC' be used?
Thanks for your comment MN.
I would not connect a wire directly from the GFCI outlet Hot terminal to a ground source for testing the GFCI. In fact it would be much safer to use a wire from the Neutral side of the GFCI outlet and then touching a grounded source because this should accomplish the same ground sensing results with most GFCI outlets.
I have both analog and digital testers, but I use my analog tester more because it does not take batteries, and because it only tests voltage, I do not have to switch the settings. Plus the analog tester I use fits nicely in my tool pouch.
Keep in mind that there is a Wide Variety of people who are Inspectors, and in a lot of cases they are not "Electrical Inspectors", but rather people who are performing inspections from a list of things to check, and they may not be very familiar with all of the NEC Codes, which is challenging in itself. However the requirement for Ground Fault Protection IS satisfied when installing a GFCI Outlet, if it is grounded with a wire or not - it IS acceptable. That being said - If the project is extensive, such as a remodel job where a lot of rewiring is done, then an inspector can require the ground system to be updated to the current NEC codes that apply. And please keep in mind, that all of this depends on Location, because the level of adoption of the NEC code varies depending on the state and county, and some areas may not have adopted all of the newest codes, or even enforce them.
As a rule of thumb, and to be on the safe side - it is always best to adopt and install electrical wiring and systems according to the current NEC code, adopted or not - in most cases - and specific to the application.
@@AskTheElectrician Thanks for the reply! So, I can also use a digital multimeter, to test either HOT to a GROUND or NEUTRAL to ground, and makes sure it is on Volts AC?
This is not a remodel. I have to get a rental inspection for a home in Detroit, MI. And the inspector said GFCI's were one of many things they look for - on outlets within 6 feet of a water source (laundry, kitchen, and bathroom). He said he plugs in a 'tester' to see if the GFCI is good. I think some, if not all of those outlets are not grounded, so I was wondering if I should try to 'inform' him, or maybe see if a different inspector knows this code better?
This home is from 1928, or so, and still has fuse panel. I think they are all 15 amp fuses, and my understanding is 15 amp GFCI is to be used for either 15, or 20, amp circuits, so that was I was going to buy?
I also was not going to get either the tamper proof (as the outlets are above sinks, counters, etc) where kids can't get to them.
I was also not going to get the weather resistant GFCI's, as I think those were for outdoors, and are not intended for normally damp areas - like basements, or baths?
Is there any harm in running a ground to the box that the new GFCI is in in this instance, or is it kinda pointless?
Either way you wish to do it.
Be Safe.