The Star Wars Prequels: Overhated, Overrated, and Overprotected
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- čas přidán 9. 05. 2024
- The Star Wars Prequels as some of the most hotly debated films of all time, and I'm going to throw myself right into the line of fire! I know a lot of people love these films, a lot of people hate them, but I have mixed feelings on the trilogy. I believe that these films contain some really interesting lore and complex narratives, but they also don't capitalize on all of this potential due to somewhat poor execution. Watch for my personal take on the Prequels, which I believe are over hated, overrated, and overprotected.
#starwars #prequels #skywalker
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Those lines are memes out of context. In context what Anakin said makes total sense and Hayden is great actor.
I see what you’re saying, and yes I do think that pulling the lines out of context makes them funnier or feel more bizarre and out there, but even in context I think some of his dialogue is a little over the top at times, and I do find myself wishing that the script was more subtle and less shakespearean, but that’s just my perspective
@@ScreenedStories You tell me original trilogy was not over the top, nerf herder
@@LyinkKralonMP_UAsoviet I think there’s certainly moments of the dialogue being over the top in the original trilogy, Luke screaming no after the Vader reveal comes to mind immediately off the top of my head, but they’re certainly less so, the nerf herder line is a bit over the top but it’s also meant to be a funny line, where as most of the memed lines from the prequels weren’t meant to be humorous, though again, pulling them out of context does play a role in that for sure
@@ScreenedStories You said you found yourself wishing the writing was more subtle. Well I’d hate to break it to you but Star Wars has never been a saga about subtlety. The Shakespearean approach George Lucas took was part of the point. In an interview with the Guardian he said “It's not deliberately camp. I made the film in a 1930s style. It's based on a Saturday matinee serial from the 1930s, so the acting style is very 30s, very theatrical, very old-fashioned.” Ultimately, you like that approach or you don’t. I guess it’s all down to personal taste.
@@theanonymouscritic1710 I agree with that, it’s very Shakespearean, and I think George knowing the end point of the prequel trilogy is actually what heightened the heavy handedness of his writing in the prequels. Like with the OT, he didn’t know Darth Vader was Luke’s father while he made the first film, because he hadn’t made that creative choice yet, so there wasn’t a chance for him to hit us over the head with a bunch of hints that Vader was Luke’s father, which would have made the reveal fall completely flat. Where as the prequels needed to feed into the original film, so because everyone essentially knew the ending already, I think George intentionally was extremely overt with his dialogue, which is fine and will work for a lot of people, but isn’t my cup of tea
The problem with the prequels was that it spanned over too much time. Ironically, the problem with the sequels is that it spanned over too little time.
One of the areas that I do defend a little on the prequels is the romance between Anakin and Padmé. People describe their romance as coming across as awkward, but it was meant to come across as awkward. Hayden and Natalie were not even given a script for some of the scenes, and personally I think that was very clever of George Lucas. One of my favourite plays is a play called Abigail's party and the actors completely ad-libbed from start to finish. In some areas, the actors did run out of conversation or it was awkward, but that was part of the experience. So I like the awkward dialogue between Anakin and Padmé. You could easily say that Jack and Rose have a much better relationship, and I do like the film Titanic, but they do come across a bit older and wiser than they should.
I agree with your point about the spanning of time throughout the trilogies, with the prequels, episode one being so far removed from the other two films has always been a weird creative choice to me, and I see what your saying about the awkwardness of their romance, I think most real life romances, especially in the early stages are naturally a little awkward, that’s part of the charm of romance, I just personally think it’s a little too weird between Anakin and Padme, like there’s a fine line between cute awkward and weird awkward when creating romances, and for me it leans to far into the later category in moments of Attack of the Clones, but I do understand your point and think there’s some validity to it
@@ScreenedStories They went with Anakin as a little kid because they used the 'see how this innocent child turns into Darth Vader" to promote the films. If Anakin is an emo from the start it doesn't take a genius to figure out what happened here.
Also why wouldn’t a 19 year old who spent the last decade raised by emotionless monks be awkward in romance
@@commodorezero I understand why they started with Anakin so young and innocent, I just think then jumping ten years immediately is a bit jarring and kind of skips a lot of Anakin's development as a Jedi, where we could've seen glimpses of his dark side as he trained, I like aspects of Phantom Menace, but it has always felt like it almost belongs to another trilogy with the time jump if that makes sense, I could see an argument that there should have been a fourth film in between TPM and AOTC to bridge the gap a little, the prequels were a vast amount of story to fit into 1 trilogy, which is why I think the clone wars were so good, and needed
@@Trelitty11 He should be awkward, but given how awkward and just straight up creepy he is at times, my disconnect is why Padme requites his love in a romantic way, at least so quickly, to me, it feels like she mainly does because she has to for the plot to move forward, rather than it feeling like a natural progression
I think here’s the problem with Star Wars. It’s always been flawed and we’ve loved it through its flaws. There have always been gaps in logic, plot holes, strange fight choreography, and nonsensical plot choices. I choose to love all of Star Wars and I think we should all try to make that choice.
So if we have a dinner plate in front of us, where half of the plate is delicious mac and cheese, and the other half is a pile of dog shit, we should still love all of it?
@@jonnyo9193 I think your comment illustrates the negativity I was referring to. If the entire plate is a jumbled, chaotic, yet loveable mess, yes I think I love all of it. None of it is decidedly and definitively a pile of dog shit and I hope you find the time to look at things a little more positive. The Original trilogy was unplanned and controvertial, now classics. The prequels were poorly written and underdeveloped, now beloved by those who grew up with them. The sequels are half baked and lack overarching meaning, someday they will be classics too and you'll still be butthurt.
@@jonnyo9193 I see what you’re saying, I mean yeah I think it’s natural to point out flaws within a film when you see them, which is why I think the initial reaction to the prequel trilogy, and current reaction to the sequels is generally negative, but I also think it’s okay to like something even if you know it’s not great, like the live-action Cat in the Hat is a dog shit movie, but I do really enjoy watching the chaos unfold on screen, definitely doesn’t mean I think it’s a great Oscar worthy movie, but I enjoy it all the same
@@BriceReviews Rise of skywalker is in fact dog shit. It throws out even the misguided decisions of the sequel trilogy for a quarterbaked bad ripoff of Dark Empire.
@@JaxRiens I agree with you on that! Rise of Skywalker is a dogshit movie that I don’t really get any enjoyment out of
I watch a movie to escape and enjoy myself for a couple of hours. I've always enjoyed the SW series because they were so comic booky and I love it. The final three were meh but I thoroughly enjoyed 1-6. I'm not a fanatic about what's "canon" or not nor do I obsess over characters. I have fun with the story.
I think that’s a commendable mindset to have going into a movie, I think the big screen is certainly a transport to another world for a few hours, and when done well it’s a great escape, though I also enjoy analyzing movies after the fact and thinking about what worked, what I might’ve done differently, etc.
All star wars is flawed....not just the sequels. The hate the sequels receive remind me all too much of the hate the prequels got. It's nothing new.
To be properly enjoyed, Star Wars must be viewed through the lens of a child, a child at heart, or through a nostalgia lens. Us adults lose that wonderment when we get older. The point of Star Wars though is finding what you do like about it, and cherishing that....and ignoring the rest. You can pick apart the sequels, but the prequels can be picked apart as well as the original trilogy too. The fanbase has been divided since Empire Strikes Back...and especially with RotJ and the Ewoks.
All flawed. Hate is not new. The only difference is that we are grown.
💖
Yeah I agree with you largely, I think ROTJ, the prequels, the sequels, they all have their flaws, but film is largely a medium that’s made to allow people to escape for a few hours and transport themselves to a different world or different time, so I think it’s important to find what you like and to enjoy it regardless of how objectively good it is, I’ve also been someone who enjoys analyzing movies, but can still enjoy them flaws and all for the most part
Deep down even as a kid, I never truly hated the prequels cause I would keep rewatching them cause of how entertaining they were. The Clone Wars just gave me more reasons to enjoy them.
I can relate to this for sure! I don’t think I’ve ever gotten to, or will ever get to a point where I hate the prequels. As a kid I absolutely loved them, and they were my introduction to Star Wars, and even as I grow older and see their flaws more and more, I still have a good time with them, partially out of nostalgia, but also partially because there are some good ideas within this trilogy. The clone wars wouldn’t be able to exist and thrive the way it did if there wasn’t some kind of decent foundation to build off of
@@ScreenedStories Btw, do you think that Cal Kestis could take down Starkiller? I JUST saw a comment saying he should fight Starkiller in the 3rd Jedi game as the main antagonist. I personally agree as well as think it's a good idea to have Starkiller and Cal die fighting each other as a way to show how far the latter's come. Also, Yoda did say Luke was the last Jedi in ROTJ.
@@suryasingh9738 hmmmm, just power scaling wise I do think Starkiller should be stronger than Cal by a pretty decent amount just based off of their previous feats, but having Starkiller return would be awesome and something I’d be excited for, both Force Unleashed games have a special place in my heart and they could power Starkiller down a bit to make it a more even match for sure, a double kill would be an interesting way to end both of their stories in what would be both of their third video game appearances, it’d be a little poetic in that sense
My opinion of the prequel movies has always been "Great ideas executed poorly". They were fun to watch, and so many times I found myself thinking "I see what they're going for here, but this could have been done so much better!"
Dooku should have been set up in the first film so we could be introduced to him and see how Qui-Gon's death affected him. Have him stand up for Qui-Gon in the council. Show him being furious over the inaction of the Senate and the Jedi over the Naboo Invasion and the seeming return of the Sith. That way we'd CARE that he left the order to go found the CIS. Instead when movie 2 released we got a general reaction of "Dooku left the Jedi!" "Oh no! ...Wait who's Dooku?" Dooku's story was squandered so hard. A respected master broken by the death of his padawan, the corruption in the republic, and the inaction of his fellow jedi, leaving to find his own path. He should have been written more like a disillusioned old man desperately looking for answers and less like a saturday morning supervillain. He should have been an unwitting pawn of the Sith who honestly thinks his cause is just, and not a Sith Lord himself. Imagine the scene where Dooku tries to get Obi-Wan to join him, but instead of a thinly veiled sith lord ploy, it's an honest attempt to get his padawan's padawan, the closest thing he has to a grandson, to join him. How much more tragic and emotional would that be when Obi-Wan has to refuse?
Then we had the central romance of Anakin/Padme which kicked off way to quickly. Firstly Anakin went from seemingly half Padme's age to basically the same age as her by the beginning of movie 2. Honestly Anakin should have been closer to Padme's age in the first movie. It would make his instant crush on her back then less weird and give more weight to the Jedi's "He's too old to train!" complaint. The romance itself was badly handled. In the space a few scenes we went from Padme going "You'll always be that little boy from Tatooine" to "ZOMG MARRY ME ANAKIN!" Their lovey-dovey dialogue was horribly written and badly delivered. Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman just felt like they had zero chemistry. Not good for your key pairing whose tragic end is the central thesis of the entire story. They just got together too fast and were never believable together. They were supposed to be the modern Romeo and Juliet. Instead they're a meme.
Then the final big one. Anakin's Fall. Yes there were hints of it. Anakin killing the sand people and killing Dooku. Some people argue he was basically already a Sith by the time he swore loyalty to Palpatine, but that doesn't change the fact that he went from willing to turn Palpatine in to slaughtering his way through the entire Jedi temple for him in about 3 seconds. It was such a sudden and jarring turn you just ended up going "Wait, what?!". I know alot of his turn was probably supposed to be indicated by his internal conflicts, his fear and lack of emotional control, and need for power to save padme from his nightmares. If that WAS meant to be the case however, it was communicated terribly. Movie goers are not mind readers. We need to be shown, not told. From our perspective Anakin went from basically a loyal Jedi to literally a child-murdering Sith Lord in once scene.
I also felt the Clone Wars themselves were written poorly. Why are they called that when only one side uses clones? Why were the Kaminoans not profiteers selling clones to both sides? That would make the name "Clone Wars" make sense, and make the swerve that Palpatine controls the clones all the more powerful. Dooku in this scenario could have been a tragic figure who realizes, only at the moment of his death at the hands of his own clones, that he was just a pawn and his entire cause was a lie instead of just having Anakin off him minutes into the last movie like some random extra. Palpatine ending his fake war with a command that immediately gives him control of both sides seems much more elegant and Sith-like than him having to send Anakin to clean up the remnants of the CIS leadership afterward.
So, yeah. Sorry for the essay. I just can't help but mourn all the missed potential in these movies.
TLDR: Movies were decent and fun to watch but could have been great with some more cohesive and forward thinking writing.
No worries, I largely agree with you, I’m actually dropping a “Count Dooku had potential…” themed video next week because I think he was a huge missed opportunity, and I really think he could’ve been used as an interesting third party trying to walk a balance between the dark and light side, struggling to find some kind of balance in his life after the tragic loss of his padawan. I also think the fact that we not only don’t see Dooku in episode 1, but he’s absent from episode 2 for over half of the runtime, and then dies in like the first 30 minutes of episode 3 was a bizarre creative choice, that didn’t really allow us to connect with the character properly, with more screen time and better development, his death could’ve been really tragic!
And yeah, Anakin’s fall is an intrinsically interesting story, the idea of the chosen one falling to the dark side and turning his back on the light is phenomenal… but the way we got to his ultimate fall was definitely a bit clunky and could’ve been set up smoother in my opinion, and yeah the age difference in episode 1 between Padme is another weird creative decision!
Overall, I think your conclusion is pretty on the nose, I find the prequels to be fun and highly watchable, but I do also find myself scratching my head a bit at certain creative decisions, and think the final product isn’t the best version of what these movies could’ve been
@@ScreenedStories Thanks, glad you enjoyed my enormous megapost. Having thought more about it though, I do have to recognize they were more than a bit hamstrung by the fact that they had a hard time limit (three movies) to tell the entire story of the clone wars, the rise of the Empire, and Anakin's fall and that the ending was basically already dictated to them due to the existence of the original trilogy, so they had no choice but to make sure everything lined up with canon. By the end of the third move alot of things had to happen. The war had to end. Everyone not in the original movies had to die. All the Jedi except for Obi-Wan and Yoda had to die along with Dooku, Grievous, Padme, the Seperatists, etc. The CIS had to be gone. The republic had to be destroyed and turned into a Sith Empire, Palpatine had to fully become "The Emperor", Anakin had to fall and become Vader and the suit had to be explained. His kids had to be split up and sent into hiding. So much HAD to be done by the end of the prequal trilogy. The problem was, as of Revenge of the Sith none of these things had happened yet, so they basically had 3 hours to end the clone wars and transition completely form the prequal era to basically the state of the galaxy as of A New Hope. It was a tall ask, and to their credit they did a decent job of it.
@@exorphitus I agree with you, I did briefly mention the time restriction of telling this massive story in just three films, and I do think that partially is the issue they faced, but I think episode 1 being so detached from the rest of the trilogy and honestly having a lot of filler set up for the clone wars was a big misstep, if they had just started episode 1 at the beginning of the clone wars, with a padawan Anakin, and just gave context clues as to what started the war throughout the film, I think then having three films to tell the story of the clone wars, the fall of the Jedi, and Anakin’s turn, would have been a lot easier on them, so yes I do think the limit of only having three movies to tell this massive story was a handicap, but I also think George made it more of a handicap than it needed to be if that makes sense, though you are right he did ultimately do a decent job at bringing everything together with Revenge of the Sith
@@ScreenedStories True. Phantom Menace felt almost like the first part of an entirely different story. I get that George wanted to show us Anakin being found and the events that put Palpatine in power, but those events had an entirely different tone to the other two movies. If instead we had an older Anakin being found at the beginning of the Clone Wars it would make sense why the Jedi would make an exception for him for his age. They need to get the Chosen One trained because of the impending war. Instead Phantom Menace was more of a distant prelude to everything else and you probably could have made a prequal prequal trilogy out of everything we weren't shown about Anakin's training between TPM and AotC. Instead we got a huge time skip and Anakin in the 2nd and 3rd movies seemed to be an entirely different person in both appearance and personality to the young Anakin of the first movie. This is probably due to George not having yet figured out exactly the story he wanted to tell. Phantom Menace was very much made to be a kid friendly movie what with all the humor and silly Jar Jar antics. Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith were far more serious in tone and it's telling how Jar Jar basically got written out of the series after TPM except for a handful of lines. Suddenly he no longer fit the tone of the story. George clearly didn't go in with a clear idea of the story he was telling and it's obvious he decided to make a hard shift between TPM and AoTC. Hindsight is 2020 though. It's easy for us to sit here 25 years later and pick these movies apart. At the time though, he had massive expectations to live up to and did so well enough that alot of people love these films.
@@exorphitus I think you make some great points, I do think that there was a little lack of foresight from George Lucas with the Phantom Menace and too much childish humor, perhaps influenced by the success of ROTJ which was far more kid friendly than Empire was, but at the end of the day phantom menace is responsible for a good amount of the lore that fueled some of the best storylines in the clone wars show, and it is kind of hard to separate them from each other since they intertwine so heavily, which I do think impacts fan opinion on the prequels, and to a certain degree if you’re gonna criticize his lack of foresight, you always have to credit the general ideas and lore that he birthed from the prequels, so even though the movies do have poor execution at points, I do give George immense credit for the world building and lore he conceptualized here, as a whole, the prequel era is perhaps the most fascinating time period in the Star Wars franchise
You better make one of these for the sequel trilogy cuz all the kids and teens growing up loving these movies are gonna grow up and do the same thing prequel fans did. I’m a sequel apologist lol
Because Jesus Christ the hatred thrown against those movies are absolutely ridiculous. And all the insane amount of death threats Star Wars fans love to do against every era of this is franchise is something that needed to be addressed. The toxicity is absolutely vile.
I agree with that, the only movie in the sequel trilogy that I actively think is really bad, is Rise of Skywalker, I think Force Awakens was a good first step, Last Jedi I’m kind of mixed on, I think it’s a better Science Fiction film than a Star Wars film, but yeah I do think the level of backlash towards the trilogy was extreme, and I could see the younger generation defending them heavily in a decade or so
@@ScreenedStories Yeah man, like a traumatic amount of hatred against movies that really don’t deserve it. No movie should deserve a Star Wars fan level of hatred tbh also, “better science fiction film than Star Wars film” that’s such a backhanded compliment dude lmaoo it’s just as much a Star Wars story as every other one that you do and don’t like. That’s like saying the clone wars is a better war show than a Star Wars show.
Just because Luke isn’t chopping down stormtroopers or whatever doesn’t mean it’s not worth being seen as a SW story, warts n all. Last Jedi is the most Star Wars thing I feel because they can’t stop doing stuff with the force. Also Yoda. Also it’s the best acting we’ve ever gotten out of mark hamill for this franchise that’s for sure.
I can’t stand attack of the clones either but I know that it’s still a star war XDD
@@senior_sakuga It is a bit of a backhanded compliment, but it mainly comes from a place of it feeling like an odd continuation of the storyline, I'm all for being experimental and trying new things, but I think Last Jedi takes it a bit too far, with like the whole Rose and Finn off world storyline, and how dark and bleak they went with Luke's character, from a technical perspective it's well made, and well acted, and yeah mark is showing his acting chops off here, more than any other Star Wars film by a good margin, but it feels to me like he is a totally different character almost, and it's not because he isn't twirling around or cutting a bunch of storm troopers down, it's more so because he in a way gave up on his Nephew because of a bad dream and thought about killing him, where as he refused to give up on his father and held onto the little bit of light that might've been left inside Vader, so it feels like an odd thing for an older and more wise Luke to do, now of course people grow and change over time, so it is possible that Luke grew cynical in his older age, but we don't really get to see any of this development happen, which is why it feels so odd, so when I say it's a better science fiction film than a Star Wars film, it's not that it is poorly made, directed, or acted, or that I don't view it as a Star Wars film, I think it's well made, it just feels like an unnatural story progression in the context of the other films, especially post Rise of Skywalker which essentially ignored and retconned as much as it could from Last Jedi, where Luke is now joyful and optimistic again in ROS
@@ScreenedStories “The greatest teacher failure is.” And it’s gonna be a lifelong battle you face no matter how old you get was my takeaway. Even Luke can take L’s after everything he’s been through man. Look at the last 20 minutes of that movie. My fellow nerd, you understand that for how dark his story got in TLJ Luke had a character arc where he did become the more hopeful optimist again and did the most Jedi thing of using knowledge and defense to sacrifice himself for the future and bounced back right? He pulled an obi and became more powerful than we could possibly imagine. Unc got his groove back after learning to let go. Which is again, a very Star Wars thing to do. I’m sorry but calling it good sci fi and not good Star Wars is just such cope. 😭 Yeah Finn n rose arc coulda been if not cooler, for sure way less meandering. Yes they did finn n Poe dirty. They shoulda been together ngl so I’m with you there. Also, for those still saying Luke was nerfed, could Anakin do force projection? I don’t think so lmao
And Yes I’m with you on that we should’ve been shown way more of a like more “objective” answer as to how everything came undone post ROTJ, but like, its not the route they took but I still get the gist. Also they wanted to make room for making stories abt that with all these shows and comics and now movies coming out soon during that era like a clone wars. Make of that what you will. But it’s not like we were gonna get 15 minutes of worldbuilding about galactic politics during a time when prequel hate was still fresh when the first two sequel movies came out. Streamlined to a fault. Should we have seen more brief vignettes on how Ben got trained and got turned? Absolutely. If they wanted fans to be less pissy, make the Rey and Luke fight in the rain lesson three, have him pop out the green saber so nerds can coom n point at the screen, extend the fight, get them good angles, and extend the scene where Rey confronts Luke and have him show and tell all about how Ben got handed off to Luke and Ben’s training started to make him lose himself and all that. Give Kylo the Voldemort treatment and show us everything we need to know so we can make better conclusions. It would minimize the amount of anger nerds still have while having the movie still be itself.
another issue I think is the whole backstory mystery angle of Luke and Ben is pretty much the only reason why ppl get so mad at Luke because of the conflicting stories each character tells. Luke as a character has always had moments of weakness. I mean, he’s a Skywalker. conflict and weakness is what they’re all about yeah? He was never gonna be Jedi Jesus, he’s Anakin’s kid bro. Did the prequels not show us that mighty skywalker blood has its drawbacks? Also Luke, like Anakin, was too prideful, he let the legend of himself get to his head and it came back to bite him. At least that’s my take about all that.
This bit isn’t on you but in general man, I’m so sick of so many people saying they felt so betrayed by TLJ as if it’s an Afront to god. ROS, sure, have at it, cuz there’s enough there to shoot down story wise even tho I ironically enjoy it. It’s my spider-man 3 frfr Lmaoo There’s so much cognitive dissonance between every generation about these sequel movies should be studied at Harvard on how a nerd holy war can start. It created an entire right wing nerd movement with the fandom menace but Star Wars fan hatred has been gestating since 1999 :( I remember them making a documentary about how George Lucas was the antichrist 💀
@@ScreenedStories I don’t say any of this out of anger, Your takes are valid, I just like everyone else have my own view on what a star war is. And honestly, even if George still owned everything, mfs would still hate it let’s not even pretend anymore 😭
This has been my take for a while, and im happy we're moving far away enough from the sequels for it to be the accepted take on the quality of these movies
Yeah I think immediately after the sequels, was a time of propping up all other Star Wars content in comparison to the sequels, and while I do think it’s fair to dunk on the sequels, them being bad doesn’t impact the quality of any other Star Wars content, it should be judged on its own merit
At 6:44 I accidentally referred to the Tales of the Empire series as Tales of the Sith, but my point still stands, I would’ve preferred a focus on Ventress and Maul, who both had interesting comic storylines to draw from and adapt to the screen. The series wasn’t bad by any means, I just think better stories were out there to adapt, just my opinion though! Maybe they’ll give us a “Tales of the Sith” in the future, or give us more seasons of empire
As someone who has followed the prequels (and known about them first before almost any over SW content besides ROTJ), I feel that the discourse around the prequels has changed from the early-mid 2000s to the present day. You used to have reviewers like Confused Matthew, Spoony, and RLM putting out a lot of good points though not perfectly about why the prequels didn't work. (Also, IMDB reviewers had some good points about flaws in ROTJ which is rare to see even discussed these days.)
I don't blame fans (I am fan myself), but I feel that they can get hung up on whether something is "canon", or they can almost romanticize something to the point that they ignore the truth.
Take ROTJ Luke, for instance, the character is on the tail end of Lucas crunching four films into one, which leads Luke having this split personality: he acts "wise" like a Mr. Miyagi-type (i.e. "Your overconfidence is your weakness"), spelling out things obviously to the Emperor (the main bad guy) and does the same to Jabba, which comes across as arrogance, not confidence, and also reckless from Luke's bluntness.
This trait is juxtaposed with scenes of Luke being "afraid" as he wrestles with the temptation of the dark side almost like a young kid in the throne room. I have a hard time accepting that all of Luke's temptations here are legitimate as well: the temptation of striking down the Emperor would not lead to Luke going to the dark side, it is common sense, and Luke has killed plenty of stormtroopers without remorse. The thing is, behind-the-scenes, (In the Making of Return of the Jedi), Lucas says that the worst thing he believes that one can do is kill an unarmed person, especially one's father. This belief shapes the film, often to unbelievable ways for how the characters act in the film. So, Lucas is saying that if Luke strikes down the Emperor that he will really turn to the dark side, although he does not specify if he can "turn back" like Vader can later in the film and how long it will last, etc. The other main temptation is the thought that Luke's sister may turn to the dark side, which makes Luke snap, even Leia has shown to be pretty resilient in resisting torture and standing her ground if Vader somehow was able to convince her to turn. Leia is also the head of the rebellion, so why would she turn to begin with? It makes no sense for Luke to really snap other than being stupid and possibly overprotective of Leia.
I agree with you, I think it is natural to romanticize the movies we grew up on to a certain degree, but this can blind us to the shortcomings of these films. I do believe that ROTJ, while I do still enjoy it, certainly is the weakest of the original trilogy. The temptation for Luke to fall to the Dark side could have been set up better in ROTJ, and this does lead to having an inconsistent portrayal of Luke throughout the film, where he is somehow an intelligent, calm, cool, and collected Jedi, yet also a bit of a hothead in other moments. Not that this couldn't have worked, but the film doesn't do quite enough to set up Luke's hot headedness and affinity for the dark side in my opinion. Now, all of this being said, I do still think ROTJ has the best conclusion to any Star Wars film, and when Luke throws his lightsaber to the ground and proclaims "I am a Jedi like my father before me" is an awesome moment, even if it was a bit of a clunky road to get there.
@@ScreenedStories Hey-thanks for the reply! I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on these things.
I also wanted to talk about ROTJ Luke.
First of all, both the script of ROTJ and the context in which it was written is fairly complex. From what I can recall, Rinzler (the Making of Return of the Jedi author/compiler), said that the writing team (Kasdan, Lucas, and Marquand, et al.) noticed that Vader's motivation that was developing for ROTJ (at/post revised 1st draft) seemed inconsistent to Vader's motivations in TESB, to which I agree.
As the hero, Luke is supposed to connect with Vader in some fashion (a la Spiderman 2 with Peter Parker convincing Doc Oc to destroy the Fusion reactor) with his motivations, but I found the manner in which they were addressed in ROTJ to be borderline vague or relatively weak. (The best the film seems to do is have Luke say to Vader on the forest bridge: "let go of your hate", which implies, "let go of your hatred towards the rebel/the conflict". But it's never addressed directly (perhaps a result of Kasdan, the editor, snipping the dialogue/content a bit too much?).
Nor are Vader's aspirations addressed, which seem to be to defer constantly to the Emperor in ROTJ when in TESB, you see Vader cleverly persuading the Emperor to have him turn Luke and having thoughts of overthrowing the Emperor, which are subdued/held back by what Vader thinks he had to have Luke do in ROTJ (turn to the dark side).
All of this culminates to a head when we see Luke push and push for Vader to turn to the light side (despite saying that Vader has good in him, which seems a bit illogical to me). There is little grace nor love that Luke gives to Vader, aside for when Luke is saving himself from the dark side (an act of works/out of fear) through a (supposedly) compassionate act (though Luke also has little to no choice, according to Lucas, Luke will go to hell if he says yes to the Emperor after he strikes Vader down). The other scene where Luke does show love to Vader is when he consoles Vader after he throws the Emperor down the shaft and drags his body to one of the Imperial escape aircrafts.
Even then, Luke is obsessed with saving Vader, afraid of Vader dying when his helmet will come off. It's reasonable to care for them and to not let them die... except Luke sort of forced Vader into it by tossing away his lightsaber and begging Vader to save him (which also refutes his dual stand and dare to the Emperor to kill him, "I am a Jedi, like my father before me"). If it's implied that Luke wants the Emperor to kill him or is dating him to do so in rebel fashion, then why beg for Vader to save him? It seems... actually quite manipulative of Luke to do so for Vader, even if it's to snap Vader out of his dark side funk.
Yet Luke's stand is widely regarded as heroic by many fans though the context, both before and after that scene. But for me, it just don't seem as heroic or epic as many fans posit because ROTJ's script keen on emphasizing "the fear factor" that was originally brought up in TESB (which was more grounded and complicated there). The Emperor has to be scary and powerful at the end partially because the stakes have to raise, even if (that makes Luke look stupid earlier for being afraid of going to the dark side over being tempted to strike down an unarmed man). Luke begging for his father ("Father, please!") is a hand-me-down TESB phrase ("Ben, please!") also seen in a variation in the 1st rough draft of ROTJ.
Ultimately, I don't blame the cast or crew for the scriptwriting of ROTJ, as they were simply making a film. I feel, however, as a script, there are a lot of parts that I disagree with.
@@theblindfoldedbirdwatcher570 I see what you’re saying about Luke’s sacrifice not being that heroic in the context of the script, I personally viewed Luke throwing his lightsaber to the ground as his way of refuting the dark side and rejecting the emperor, as he can’t strike his father down, nor the emperor himself if he is unarmed. Luke did not know that the emperor had the ability to shoot force lightning, nor did he really know the emperor’s power level at all for that matter, so it was certainly a naive move to throw his lightsaber to the ground, arguably stupid, though I don’t see it as manipulative or a ploy to get his father to turn to the light, I think if Luke knew the emperor was about to fry him to death he would’ve still said what he said, but held onto his lightsaber instead. Now, to go back to your point about Luke being inconsistently represented, I think this might be a key example of Luke’s overconfidence.
To me, it is epic (not particularly heroic though) because of how the line is delivered, and the meaning behind it. Luke found himself in the exact position Vader was in, in the previous film, and rather than succumbing to the power of the dark side, he threw his weapon to the ground and refuted it, which I think certainly inspired his father to do the same. I think there is also a fair argument, that Luke, after having just felt a rush of power and emotions from the darkside while fighting and unarming his father, didn’t even want the temptation of being able to strike someone down, and threw his weapon to the ground to remove any possibility of striking someone down in hatred, again, naive based on what the emperor would go on to do to Luke, but not really an intentionally manipulative move on Luke’s part, I’d say it lacked foresight, and the script definitely could have done a better job at more consistently portraying Luke as a good willed, but naive character throughout ROTJ. I think if Luke was more consistently portrayed in this way, then the throwing of his blade to the ground would fit better.
I also think that begging for his father to save his life is not really a manipulative thing, I think it is pretty natural for someone to ask for help when they’re on the verge of death, I mean, yes luke did cause the situation by throwing his blade to the ground, but given his still developing skills with a lightsaber, I’m not super confident in his abilities to consistently block force lightning from Palpatine with his weapon in hand either. I do agree that the script could have and probably should have developed a stronger connection between Luke and Vader, maybe having them telepathically communicating throughout the film here and there through the force could have been a useful addition, but the general connection between the two, I always viewed as being their familial bond as father and son. Despite the distance between the two and the lack of a pre-existing relationship, Vader was the only family Luke had left besides Leia, and given that he could sense the conflict of emotions within Vader, I think that bond went both ways. Even despite having his hand cut off by him, he is still his father, so I think that naturally creates a want and desire to see him be well. I agree with you largely on ROTJ being a bit weak in the script department, I think the Jabba’s palace segment was especially long and should have been trimmed down to give more time to set up the Luke, Vader, Emperor angle, which was the most interesting part of the film by far and could’ve been even better with more time and development.
I never got into Star Wars. I like Star Trek The Next Generation.
Yeah I think for me I had parents who liked Star Wars so that definitely imprinted on me as a kid which made me more inclined to be fan, but I like Star Trek as well! Who’s your favorite character from next generation??
@@ScreenedStories Captain Picard, he's kind of a paternal figure for the crew. He would jeopardize his career to protect their rights . His speeches are phenomenal; Picard inspires me to be better!
@@kylekullin2520 ngl, you took the words right out of my mouth, it’s kind of hard to not say Picard now that I’m thinking about it, he’s definitely a prototypical leader I’d say, and Sir Patrick Stewart is a phenomenal actor so that doesn’t hurt either!
@@ScreenedStories agreed,my friend.
The only connection between those films is that they have Star in the title
I think they’re flawless . I won’t defend it nor die on the hill I don’t care what others think lol ot is flawless too . Sequels no
I respect your opinion, I personally don't think any movie can truly be 100% flawless, but everyone watches movies for different things and have unique preferences, so I understand the love of the prequels and the OT, but we can certainly agree on the Sequels, definitely flaws galore in that trilogy
I’m one of those ppl who think the ROTS audiobook is one of the best Star Wars things next to Andor lmao Anakin’s my favorite character. Like of all time, both his light and dark side self. All the bad writing included XD I think the current canon is better than legends but that some more stuff should be grandfathered in somewhat.
I agree with your take on the cannon, I like a lot of the new stuff, but definitely miss some of the old comic material like the Heir to the Empire trilogy, and I understand your take on Anakin, I think his journey is fascinating, regardless of how good the execution is at times
@@ScreenedStories of course. There’s a lot I feel they can work with but a lot of those old stories need streamlining. It was a lot of 90s era schlock being crammed in I feel. The Luke clones and tbh a lot of stuff in regards to Luke I really didn’t like in legends ngl Lmaoo
I will say this and I mean, I DO think Revan and Mara Jade gotta show up in a canon story at some point I feel. We got Darth Bane and they can use those unused models down the road for him someday. But man, Just don’t make Mara Luke’s wife. they can have like a fling or something but Luke married to that grind loll
@@senior_sakuga Lol, yeah I agree, I'm luke warm on Luke's storyline post ROTJ (pun intended) but I do really like Thrawn as a villain and Mara Jade is my favorite legends character which largley fuels my enjoyment of the heir to the empire trilogy, but you're right there's definitely ways to improve and streamline it if they do end up adapting it at some point, and I would love to see Revan, Malgus, and Vitiate in some form or capacity in live action, potentially in a Knights of the Old Republic trilogy would be cool to see
One film, last jedi, not that bad.
I've gone back and forth quite a bit on the Last Jedi, for me personally, I think it is a fine science fiction film on its own, but in the context of the trilogy and franchise as a whole, it's not a great Star Wars film, as far as fitting in the continuity and vibe of the other movies, but I do think Rise of Skywalker is far worse, and kind of makes Last Jedi worse in retrospect by not doubling down on the direction Last Jedi went in
@@ScreenedStories fair
Coming for Oscar Isaac's filmography here huh
Lmao, Moon Knight might be next
Actually Episodes I & II aren’t convoluted. You just need to pay attention. The scene where Anakin breaks down after killing the sand people became a meme because of simpletons who can’t think deeper than the surface and can only speak Internet language.
I respectfully disagree, disliking something or thinking a scene is poorly acted and scripted doesn’t necessarily mean that the person with this opinion lacks the ability to comprehend what’s happening, though that definitely could be the case in certain circumstances. I fully understand that Anakin is in emotional turmoil after his mom’s death, I mean he was quite literally forced to abandon her to train as a Jedi, and was lectured for years about cutting off his emotional attachments, only to have her die in his arms, causing an influx of these forbidden emotions. So in ideation I like and understand what the film is going for, but the scripting of the scene where he tells Padme about it is pretty clunky in my opinion, and I don’t think it’s acted that well by Hayden. It gets across what it has to narratively, but I think it could have been executed better, which is kind of my outlook on the trilogy as a whole.
Though, I do understand where you’re coming from, there’s a lot of people who have maybe never even seen the movie in it’s entirety, that have watched that scene out of context as a meme, and decided to rag on the trilogy without even giving it a chance. I think internet culture has definitely made it popular to either proclaim something is the greatest thing ever, or is absolute trash, and a lot of people just hop on those trains without proper knowledge of what they’re criticizing or supporting, or taking the time to form their own opinion on it. Like disagreeing with someone on how good a movie is will just naturally happen because we all have different tastes, but letting social media dictate your opinion on it is sad to see for sure!
@@ScreenedStories Well I disagree on the writing being clunky and Hayden not acting it very well. I can’t argue it other than the writing never bothered me and I he did it very well or he did it the way George Lucas asked him to.
@@theanonymouscritic1710 The “I killed them all” scene comes off as clunky to me because it very much feels like Padme is a prisoner to the conversation and not an active participant. There’s moments where Anakin is asking questions, which get no response, and he just continues to ramble on, leading to the point where he has the explosive reveal of killing all the sand people, and to me that doesn’t feel natural because that’s something he wasn’t planing on sharing with her or anyone, so I think the scene would’ve worked far better if Anakin was closed off at first, extremely un-talkative, and then after being peppered with a ton of questions from Padme, he starts to spiral.
I also think it’s a little too on the nose, like showing Anakin working on fixing something is a great subtle way to show that Anakin is deeply upset that he couldn’t fix the situation with his Mom’s kidnapping, and is subconsciously trying to fix something else as an emotional fill in. So, to then have Anakin just blurt out that he likes fixing things, and that he’s good at it, kind of takes that subtlety and hits us over the head with it. I also think it makes Anakin come off too infantile, like he should be immature, but asking “why’d she have to die,” feels like something that someone far younger than him would ask at a funeral, and I think there’s ways to convey his feelings without directly saying all of them in this fashion. Like if I was a trained Jedi, trained to suppress my emotions, I wouldn’t just blurt everything out like Anakin does here, it’d take some prying on Padme’s part to get them out of me, and they should come out of Anakin eventually, but the process leading up to his “emotional explosion” is what let’s the scene down in my eyes. Ultimately we got to the right end point, but the process felt unnatural to me, and could’ve been structured better in my opinion, but I do agree with your point on this being what George wanted, I don’t blame Hayden for acting it the way he did at all, I think it’s exactly what George envisioned
@@ScreenedStories “It very much feels like Padme is a prisoner to the conversation.” Not quite the analogy I would use. Padme does answer his questions “Sometimes there are things no one can fix.” For me personally, the interpretation that he wasn’t going to share that info with her is why it works so well imo.
@@theanonymouscritic1710 I respect the opinion, I mean at the end of the day, like we’ve both said, a lot of how we rate and view films does come down to taste and personal interpretation, but I appreciate your perspective on things! I think it’s good to constructively interact with other people, especially those who disagree with you, because it often illuminates things you might not have thought about, or different ways of viewing/interpreting things, I’ve had a few comment threads change my view on aspects of specific characters/scenes/movies, just by challenging my initial stance
As someone who watched all the movies for the first time at 25, with no bias or nostalgia to cloud my judgement, I can confidently say that the prequels as a whole are much better than the original trilogy.
That's fair enough, and I respect your opinion, I think a lot of film criticism ultimately comes down to personal preference and what you're looking for out of a movie experience
HATER!!!! Just Kidding
The Sequels are good. 8 and 9 are better than the Prequels sorry.
From a technical filmmaking perspective, I agree with you, they certainly look better with great practical effects and less of a dependency on CGI, and I think you can certainly argue that the dialogue is better written (though I think the screenwriting is really weak in both trilogies) but my biggest issue with the sequels is that the storyline is directionless and pointless. The prequels set out to tell the story of the chosen one’s fall to the dark side, which was something that the OT left untold, and is intrinsically interesting, but what did the sequels set out to tell? The prequels have poor execution in a lot of areas, but what are the sequels even trying to execute? The fact that the tone and direction of each film changes so drastically within the sequel trilogy, tells me that Disney didn’t really have a purpose outside of making money, and that is my biggest issue with the sequels.