Trauma and the Demolition of Faith | Ronnie Janoff-Bulman | EP 449
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
- Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with social psychologist and author, Ronnie Janoff-Bulman. They discuss how most implicit beliefs are consciously unknown to those who hold them; the human reactions to fear, disgust, pain, and the destruction of hope; why people blame themselves for truly random events; what the experts get wrong about motivation; and the difference between proscriptive and prescriptive morality.
Ronnie Janoff-Bulman is Professor Emerita of Psychology and Brain Sciences at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst. She is a social psychologist and the author of two books and over 90 published papers. Her first book, “Shattered Assumptions: Towards a New Psychology of Trauma,” has been cited over 9,500 times. She was awarded a National Science Foundation grant for her research on morality, which serves as the backbone of her recent book, “The Two Moralities: Conservatives, Liberals, and the Roots of Our Political Divide.” She is the recipient of teaching and mentoring awards and is the former editor of Psychological Inquiry, an international journal devoted to advancing theory in psychology. A mother and grandmother, Dr. Janoff-Bulman lives in Amherst, Massachusetts with her husband of over 50 years.
This episode was recorded on May 2nd, 2024
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For Ronnie Janoff-Bulman:
Shattered Assumptions (Book) www.amazon.com/Shattered-Assu...
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- Chapters -
(0:00) Coming up
(0:34) Intro
(2:24) Shattered assumptions and unknown implicit beliefs
(7:12) Anxiety, terror, pain, and the destruction of hope
(10:30) Karl Friston, how anxiety and negative emotion link to entropy control
(16:13) The characterized structure of aim as predicated by values
(18:47) Are neuropsychologists wrong about expectation?
(25:14) Job, the denial of proximal evidence for axioms of faith
(32:00) The religious are better equipped to cope with shattered assumptions
(33:55) Why people blame themselves after truly random negative events
(36:19) The necessity of positive illusion and why Dr. Peterson vehemently disagrees with this notion
(44:23) Why Becker is wrong about motivation
(49:15) Longing for the previous tyranny while in the desert, the proper foundational axiom
(57:09) Tragic randomness and outright malevolence versus naivety
(59:00) Freud and confirmation bias
(1:03:42) The Two Moralities: proscriptive versus prescriptive morality
(1:13:43) How conservatives and liberals see equality, regulation, and possibility
(1:17:19) Individual versus communal responsibility
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1:18:52 -- Does Dr. Janoff-Bulman realize that it is prescriptive liberal social policies, intended to "help," that actually "helped" destroy the financial outlook & social fabric of poor and minority families in America? As someone who was on public assistance for years, I can tell you from experience that continually handing out money to poor people does NOT encourage motivation, empowerment, and future success, but rather continued dependence. Thankfully I was raised with conservative values which allowed me to eventually escape this vicious cycle.
The great society hard at work
I wish more people listened to what you said, there are far too many Liberal/Left/Progressive people who are more interested in looking like they're helping, but not actually empowering instead of giving a handout
Very well said. Thank you for your wise words and for sharing you personal story of triumph over difficult circumstances.
Exactly. It’s not the money that’s the benefit, it’s the journey towards achieving it, where you learn the prerequisite skillet required to actually survive. It’s the age old adage, give a man a fish..
The (FLAWED) Power of good intentions
I agree that this was a very productive conversation. Namely because it exposes the leftist view that Republicans and Democrats operate in the same moral domain of collective submission and those that operate in the domain of personal responsibility and personal liberty are in a different moral domain; essentially immoral.
A revealing quote from the interview.
“I am not speaking now of the MAGA movement which is a movement in support of a lie. I am talking about a true Conservative like Liz Cheney who has proven to be moral. I could enjoy sitting down to dinner with Liz Cheney and having a conversation.”
This is why they call us Nazi’s and justify violating our Constitutional and human rights. Anything outside of their moral domain which require submission of the sovereignty of the individual to the collective is evil.
This professor just showed how an urbane, thoughtful, collaborative agreeable woman can send people to a gas chamber.
She just showed she’s a clown that got played by propaganda and the neocon that only cares about profiting off of war… Her back must be bruised from her own hand patting yourself on the back.
She believes in propaganda… It’s should all but discount pretty much everything else she has to say. However interesting their psychoanalysis was if she believes Liz Cheney is a moral person I question everything else she has to think and say.
Dead on accurate 💯💯💯
@@beefybmw9532her statement was … odd. I agree with some of Liz Cheney’s beliefs, but that this guest would pick her out for the shining example of moral conservatives ade me scratch my head 😳
🎯
Lovely to see a social psychologist and a clinical psychologist engage in respectful, challenging, and playful discourse. Always a pleasure, thank you Dr. Peterson and the Daily Wire crew!
At the end there she's kind of an idiot, though.
Thank you Dr. Peterson. I am firmly convinced now that liberalism if unchecked leads to atrocity.
100%
It seems like it is based on 1 fundamental difference. Freedom of choice.
Conservatives want to leave people to make their own choice. Liberals want to force people to choose.
Add to that the misguided belief in the integrity of the government and the rule makers.
I am a MAGA Republican, I am a minority. I was a Democrat during Kennedy’s administration. I became a Republican about 15 years ago. The Democrats have moved towards Marxism. The leftist do not like Martin Luther King. They want DEI, Marxist. They hate Christian values. Our cities are run by people who do not think there should be consequences to people who rob, and hurt people. The head of the Democratic Party is far left. It is not the Center. I don’t think Democrats are Moral. They want pure power. I think America should come first. We need to protect our boarders, take care of our homeless, and have laws that protect our citizens. I am not a fan of Liz Chainy. AOC and her group are chaotic. My husband and I did not have wealth, we got ahead because we believed in commitment to our families. We took responsibility. We believed in God. Life is not simple.
Conservatives want to lock people up for who they have sex with, what they drink, what they smoke, where they live, etc. In no sense do conservatives want to let people to be free to live the ways they choose.
That's not "Liberalism", any more than the Inquisition was a "Christian" idea. These are perversions by bad actors.
I would say the same for conservatism. And I'm conservative.
"if you face the world forthrightly and voluntarily, with faith in your ability to prevail, the pathway forward will make itself known to you in the best manner possible."
Quite interesting although I didn't agree with her views on conservatism, nor the uncalled-for dig at MAGA people, who are not far-right extremists at all. Good to see Dr Peterson looking great in a smart grey suit and with the gold rings back on. Thanks for all you do Dr Peterson. 👍
Don’t worry it probably cost her some books sales lmao.
Just the fact that she thinks Liz Cheney is a moral person proves she believes in a lie all while disproving MAGA is based on a lie.
Lefties will never learn to shut up and let people not know their bias. In 1 second she proved she’s a clown who blindly believes propaganda.
Massachusetes is a state that is deeply liberal. Ironically, it kept electing Republicans as governors. Well, they're literally literally liberal or moderate to begin with.
If you lived in Massachusetts you would be anti maga too. Lol jk. I grew up in NY and the northeast just likes to have bad policies and poor leaders. Glad I left!!
She doesn’t even care to define what she’s even talking about with alt-right. And claims mainstream liberalism isn’t extreme at all.. all while trying to trans children and push extreme costly virtue signaling baseless environmentalism into policy. And let’s not forget the draconian covid policy pushed by ‘liberal’ states.
Conservatives know people need support they just believe it should come from one's own community , to which we belong and are accountable.
Where lefties believe a government entity should be funded by everyone’s money to help out people that will likely abuse the system.
Yes, it's called charity😊
@@phils2601which conservatives are bigger contributors to
Im very curious about 2 things.
#1 what's her definition of Maga conservatives which is so "obviously in error "
#2 how do liberals mesh their belief that helping others should be a government responsibly, when it’s historically factual that governments are incapable of doing it without screwing it up?
As often happens, the Daily Wire section was the best part of the conversation.
I found the good doctor’s political naïveté with regard to the liberal left to be astonishing but I don’t think it was willful ignorance on her part, she’s just used to thinking along certain lines and hasn’t updated in many years. She sees the world through the story of old-fashioned liberalism and more power to her for that. However there is FAR more to the story of the campus protests and I don’t think there is any excuse, in our Information Age, to be that ignorant.
It rejoiced my heart to see Dr. Peterson looking and seemingly feeling so well and enjoying the hell out of the spirited discussion.
All in all, I think we need so many more of those conversations between representatives of the left and the right, finding common ground.
Dr. Peterson was talking about the trolls on the internet and I agree they are trouble, but I think the way to deal with them is to refuse them that which they most want, which is attention. “Don’t feed the trolls” is a watchword for a reason. I’m much more concerned, as someone who reads more comments than is good for anyone’s mental health, with the commenters who have stupid, vacuous, and uninformed opinions on things they have neither researched nor thought deeply about, who are convinced those stupid opinions are far far more important than they really are, and in consequence proclaim their opinions to be as valid as facts because they just want to be right.
“The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”
All things considered, a thought provoking discussion. Well done, both of you, and thank you both.
With Ruth Anne’s love
She’s a zombie.
In that dw section she also ascribed order as conservative and compassion as liberal and said we needed a compassionate society as well as an orderly one.
What she doesn't realize is compassion by government mandate isn't compassionate.
Right leaning people want a compassionate society, but it's only created by people being compassionate, not by out- sourcing your compassion to the government.
It's not compassion for them to take my money for their unworkable programs, so I can't use it to give as i see fit.
1:18:07 equal opportunity has never been about equal starting positions its about negative rights not positive rights so equal opportunity is a lack of interference not the presence of affirmative equal positioning at the starting line.
Exactly. In fact, equal starting positions have never even been a realistic possibility--we would have to give everyone the same IQ, same parenting/family background, same geography, same level of physical ability or attractiveness, same personality, and the list goes on! Life is patently "unfair" to most people in some way or another from day one; the best we can hope for is the unfettered freedom to try to make the best of our own individual situation.
Exactly, her idea is one so dumb only an intellectual could have conceived it.
As an adult, who was raped and abused as a child, I am always interested in trauma conversations. I learned some things from this interview but can't recall what they are. Clinging to my naivety, I remember "feeling hopeful" that this conversation would eventually become interesting. Near the end of this podcast, and what seemed out of the blue, a new twist emerged. It could have been very interesting, but instead, Bonnie chose to "explain" a political ideology and sprinkle it with insults toward those who don't subscribe to that ideology. I was very impressed with how Dr. Peterson handled Ronnie's political rant. I am a DW subscriber, but I am not interested in hearing the rest of this interview. Maybe when I'm cleaning the litter boxes, I will tune in to see whether or not it proves to be informative or, at the very least, interesting.
Yes, I was also waiting to hear some good advice 🤨
What happened to you is grotesque. I don't know your exact situation but my trauma from being molested repeatedly as a child has never left. I've had difficulty forming relationships all of my life. Friendship or partnership relationship it doesn't matter. Those of us who've had our basic humanity taken away from us have to find a different path. Thank you for your bravery in sharing a little or your story. Keep your chin up!
@@Beelzebubba1983 thank you ❤. Im happy to report that by the Grace of God, and LOTS of therapy, I'm 30 years clean, 27 years married to a wonderful man and have two sucessful, wellbalanced children.
"Why is it good that individuals and not the state should be responsible for economic provision?"
Because in the end, an actual individual is the one doing the work to make that economic provision happen, and that individual knows more than the government does about how to make that happen.
Celebrities and corporations who pretend to be offended when God is publicly thanked will be the first to pray when they're faced with a real problem 🙏 😭
Prayer to a non lord you do t obey means nothing
@@sparky3006 you're a troll and you're known by your fruits lmao
They’re not pretending, they are associating God with the church and as we all know any political organization will act in it’s own interest. I find JP’s application of secular language to religious thought very helpful for clearly distinguishing religious concepts
@@sparky3006say something interesting
@@quartqwertbudisgood 100% ty
I love when Jordan says, "Now, you tell me what you think about this."
:-) happy brain excitement joy:-)
I’ve adopted that in my discussions and I get a way better experience and they develop into arguments at a much lesser rate than they used to.
Honestly!! I'm a mildly sentimental person, so in a goofy way I do find it endearing because it's a mannerism I associate with Jordan specifically now after watching multiple of his discussions, but you're so right too in pointing out what an excellent strategy it is for facilitating discussion and avoiding defensiveness. I'm sure that's the reason he does it, and it's a good one! I use phrases like that, too:) Helps keep everybody open and interested in learning/coming to understanding!
I love these kinds of conversations. It makes my brain feel good!
I love these kinds of conversations. They make my brain feel good.😉
I feel very lucky to have the opportunity to listen to a conversation between two people that are smarter than me. Must have been rare throughout history
I barely could make it through this episode…the end was especially rough. She completely mischaracterized conservatives and conservatism. This was like attempting to have a conversation with my stepmother and father (when he was alive). The most ridiculous part of what she stated was when she was talking about the “MAGA Republicans” and how “far right the Republican Party has moved” which is ridiculous because when you look at the individual points of the Republican Party today, it is equivalent of moderate 40 years ago. Further, morons like her like talking about the “far right” and “republican extremism” but they always point to very small, isolated examples that have been blown up to be something far worse, far more extreme, and far greater than anything that actually existed. Not to mention, the establishment Republican Party always calls out those incidents and they are rebuked publicly. However, when you point out horrible behavior from the Left, behavior that has cost millions to billions of dollars, it is always excused, ignored, minimized, or they gaslight you. Further, Democrats do NOT call out their own; in fact, they pay bail money to release criminals that do stuff as a form of “political activism.” Further, they change laws and/or policies to protect those in their party AND have the media in their back pocket reiterating whatever message they want propagated and promoted…regardless of how untrue the message may be.
She is Hilariously misleading and contradictory she’s a quack and hasn’t stepped outside her liberal bubble in decades.
Yes she turned out to be a disappointment 😔
Perfectly stated.
JFK would be a Republican today. He believed in the free market, tax cuts and equality, not equity.
JP is on fire these days
just like satan
She got overly biased when talking about politics. It was almost unbearably cliche
The cliche continued for 45 minutes on the Daily Wire. Brutal.
@@tuulalu5181I had a feeling it would be
@@tuulalu5181ooouuuiiu ugh I I iiiiiiíiiiiiiiiiiii III îòiiìiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiio mom
She was a refreshingly challenging guest this time. It had a good productive flow. Have her back on for sure.
She WAS great right until she said Liz Cheney was a moral person and showed her TDS. She probably one that thinks January 6 was an actual interaction…
Too right
Unfortunately, it ended right when it started to get interesting.
She's a horrid serpent.
This was probably the one of the greatest conversations with someone from a different side of politics ever and I am grateful to have been a witness to it. Honestly the quality of conversations in this channel is of the greatest I've ever seen on CZcams. Jordan Peterson is really making strides year and the development of his ideas has really been profound from the conversations with Carl Friston, Jonathan Pageau, Daniel Dennet, and just so many more.
I am really looking forward to buying this book in the near future.
Also, Ronnie Janoff-Bulman is just great in this conversations adding her nuance and challenging some of the things JP said, I felt an impending sense of dread knowing that this conversation was going to stop, I wish I could've seen more.
She's from MA a literal deep blue state. Not surprised from her pov.
He could and should have demolished her position, but he was polite to his guest out of respect for her work.
Lots to be said about this conversation, and I started wanting to engage while watching it on the daily wire platform. I think a counterpoint to her comments about equity - how people who don’t inherited wealth can’t possibly have equal opportunities - is that much of the equity argument is predicated on what constitutes “success.” The equity argument frequently comes down to material things and experiences. Sure, some wealthy people can go to a play at $200 a seat. And some less wealthy people can go to a tractor pull for $10 a seat. But who is saying one is better than the other? Who is saying one “should/ought” to be happier at one over the other? So why do we not stop to consider that the “equitable” programs liberals push for maybe aren’t what everyone wants because the outcomes everyone may want differ? What if someone would prefer a tractor pull to a broadway show? How will you enforce equity practices and models then?
The fact the tickets for the show are 20x the tractor pull is indicative of either more people wanting to do that or the ratio of people wanting to do it to the number of seats available is far different than a tractor pull. It comes down to supply and demand and although I don’t like the equity argument, I do agree getting a massive inheritance puts someone on unequal footing for life. I have seen it many times in my own life. For me, the equity argument is weak form of saying society has done a poor job of organizing itself to give hard working people a fair shot a great life while instead prioritizing some to have more than they could ever use or want and some who spend their life struggling against what they would otherwise prefer.
I love JESUS! Thank you for your mercy ALMIGHTY GOD
Gosh, I absolutely loved this episode! It was like listening to another version of JP, with Dr.. Ronnie. This was a stimulating conversation, awakens the Brain to put it simply.
JP. You have no idea the impact you are making through these videos. You are such a father figure! ❤
jp is your daddy?
@@terrycruise-zd5tw Look everybody, its a degenerate!
@@terrycruise-zd5twlike a spiritual father is what they mean.
@@olubunmiolumuyiwa but spirituality doesnt exist 👀
@@terrycruise-zd5tw Then neither do you.
I could reduce you down to a combination of atoms with no meaning or purpose.
The last 15 to 20 minutes is killing me. Her kind of argument is the liberalism that laid the groundwork for the progressives. Her ideas feel unscrutinized. ‘Why is it better for people to take responsibility for provision than government?’
Inefficiency at best, breadlines or much worse at worst
The unbridled belief that progressive liberalism can do no wrong knows no bounds. Common Lefty groupthink.
I am in a heavy PTSD stage leaving a narcissistic husband or trying to leave… I am so betrayed over and over it never stops I have nearly lost all my sanity God help me
May you find your blessings 🦋
Prayers and love
I pray that God will wrap you in love. There is a good place of peace that you will find. People will fail but God doesn't. He will even give you faith and hope when you don't have it or lose it. I know because I am a rape survivor
Picking up your cross and bearing it redeems us.
This one was intensely captivating. Usually I play these in the background while I work but after about 15 minutes of this one I just sat there and watched it like a movie. Excellent.
Loved this conversation found the lady fascinating and gave me great insights on worthiness related to shattered assumptions. You have to watch the members portion of this it blows my mind how intelligent this woman is and how she talks about how we all need to talk and listen to each other and at the same time holds such contempt for people she doesn’t want to understand so much compassion and so much contempt for others at the same time. I would love more analysis of this conversation.
When I went and learning about Nursing and patient care I expected a standard of care on was taught. When I witnessed lack of standard from ppl I was implicitly expecting to see, I WAS SHOCKED . When I stood up for righteousness ( implicit belief in truth and doing what’s right) was proper and yet tables got turned on me, at 23 yrs old I got very disillusioned then anxious and depressed. I’m 69 now and know the world a bit but now I see why I got depressed with anxiety. Thanks I don’t go into relationships or events expecting them to suck, but when some do, I don’t get very disappointed or anxious or depressed. I just get reminded that the world is fallen and people can suck.
How come only Trump supporters are not morally motivated!!!???
I support Trump and absolutely morally motivated. Trump stopped 50+ years of was between Arabs and Jews. In his presidency no new war happened and older ones stopped. ISIS ended in his presidency.
He made school choice so poor kids had the opportunity to attend the same school as the rich ones. He put tax cut on suffering neighborhoods so more business go there, more business mean more job opportunities for the locals.
Because she’s a lefty quack that has no amount of humility and is not able to question their own side because it all falls apart with a simple inquiry.
It is because despite her intelligence and understanding of the psychology part of this conversation she is clearly not a very open person when it comes to politics. She thinks herself more than she is.
I love the way JP has to close his eyes to get the idea into words.
cause drugs have irreparably damaged his cognitive thinking
@@terrycruise-zd5twhe has written three books. Calm down he's fine.
😂😂😂😂 Laughing at you. Not with you @@terrycruise-zd5tw
And this is exactly why social psychology gets a bad rap......her clear political bent permeates her work. Thank you for the interview. Everyone should watch the follow-up video where she discusses her law professor daughter at Columbia and thoughts on the pro terror protests on college campuses.
Hello Doc. Peterson, have you ever considered interviewing Schwerpunkt? He's a PhD in Medieval warfare but he's quite proficient the transcendental meaning of European Tradition. His work struck me and I think that your interaction could boost dramatically Transatlantic conservatism.
I'm going to check him out.
I gotta check him out now
Me too
Thanks. I will check him out! Have you read any Hilaire Belloc? He was a Catholic Franco-English Historian, poet, member of the British parliament, European patriot (in the Europe is a product of the Church sort of way), and good friend of Chesterton.
You should probably email or tweet Jorda.
There’s a collapse at the point of trauma that no amount of faith can prepare you for. The shock is about the sudden collapse of the traumatized person’s worldview. Suddenly a reality is presented that immediately causes inner conflict, since the new information conflicts with long held beliefs and expectations.
Faith can help to resolve the conflict but it cannot prevent the trauma and may even be the worldview that makes the shock of trauma so great if your faith precludes you from reality. But no amount of faith will prevent the psychological reaction at the moment of trauma.
Hmmm I don't agree because it depends entirely on what you mean by faith because my definition is that Faith means trust.
If you trust that things will be good if you trust that they will despite not knowing how and even when you're confronted with the possibility of awful outcomes then no matter what happens this belief will help you because if you truly trust in such a way then you feel the opposite of fear.
Trauma causes anxiety, fear, doubt, helpless etc... And trusting without needing to know is the opposite of all those things so that's why it's exactly what you need in order to deal with traumatic events. But hey that's what I believe and it has worked for me at least.
@@michielwaalboer3088 Faith can help with “awful outcomes” but there is no way to avoid the shattering, inner conflict, and self-blame that occurs at the point of a real trauma. Faith can play an important role in recovery though.
Wrong, actually
Good discussion. I found though the discussion better when it was about trauma then compared to politics. It shows how difficult it is to discuss politics because intentionally or unintentionally people take sides, you're either left or your on the right. Frankly we need to be in the middle to have balance, like mother nature.
Yeah, she had nothing interesting to say on the subject of politics -- just predictable Leftist talking points, and a huge blind spot for the big lies that the Left tells people to keep them on-side.
Not sure that is remotely realistic, given the variety of temperaments and degrees to which we have our own person hierarchies of values, perspectives, convictions. I can relate with your comment in terms of being in the middle ( or moderate / center ), yet it depends on the issue or ethic. And how can we in effect force another person to be much more curious when they score low in that facet? It would be fantastic for the world to be more balanced, maybe part of the solution is we need many, many more individuals from the Left to the Right who courageously speak out and learn from each other, thusly modeling to the world at large how to think and learn and grow.
Leftists have for the last ten years basically been arsonists, who wanted to burn down our house.
"Compromise with them!" the 'centrists' say. "Just let them burn down the garage and the kitchen, and they'll be content."
Then we stood there with a burned-out kitchen and garage, and the Left again says "I want to burn down your house." The 'centrists' again say "Compromise! Balance!" and there goes your living room and dining room up in flames.
Centrists are wankers who fetishize centrism, no matter how destructive it is in practice.
As a Bipolar 1 patient, I know exactly how this feels, and it feels exactly how they explain it. Anxiety is bad enough. Hopelessness is unbearable. Glad this subject is being explored. Gives one hope?
Such a great conversation - it truly astonishes me that people will try to criticize JBP's intelligence and merit but they clearly never consume material of his like this - this was a BRILLIANT display between two psychologists
You're kidding right? She was rude, argumentative, interruptive and unbearably left minded and wrong about so many things. The very definition of a toxic female.
The suit jacket he is waring has his name written on it in GOLD. Nice!!
As I mentioned on Cleetus' channel; "The goal is to become so absolutely free, that your mere existence presents a warning to any who would seek authority and control over your life."
Jordan - you are very good at bringing out and having people show how biased some of these people are in the last 30 minutes or so of these interviews. This lady doesn't have a clue what conservatives stand for
She's the very definition of toxic feminity.
37:00
It's wonderful that there are people who can still be as excited by this as you are. Somehow, you escaped The Great Flattening which the world specializes in inflicting on human personality. Congratulations!
I absolutely agree with the example The queen passed away it is absolutely not. People take trauma out of context. There are far behind more horrific incidents that lead more to PTSD ... Like criminals Terrorism bombings dad body's rape children raped murderer ....... NO mercy in combat ..... . That's outside things happen to when u were very young loss of Ur whole family.... The list goes on..... All who can really really help you is God JEsus Christ prayer pray and turn to him forgiveness!!!!! God won't put something on Ur path that he knew u can't handle he make u stronger Put on the armour of God. If u have backflashes pray talk to God he know u Ur his child🙏 John. 3.16.
07:50
I have long likened people's worldviews to trees. Some things they believe or perceive can be thought of as the leaves. When someone challenges a leaf belief, it's not a big deal, because nothing further is supported by it. These beliefs can change easily with no repercussions to the rest of their worldview. Other beliefs are like branches. Anything that threatens these beliefs is a much bigger deal, because any ancillary branches and all of the leaves that stem from this branch are also under threat. The amount of adjustment that will be necessary if this belief is cut off is a lot to ask of someone. A few beliefs are contained in the trunk. Anything that threatens these beliefs is a threat to the entire organism. Asking someone to change a trunk believe is essentially the same as asking them to kill themselves. There will be a person that emerges after the trunk beliefs are severed. A sprout will grow and eventually form a new tree, but it won't be the same person who was represented by the original tree. Some beliefs are so central that everything else about a person depends on them in one way or another, such that they actually can't survive as a person if those beliefs are cut down.
This a good analogy. Not to be grim but a traumatic experience would be akin to the removal of some “overhanging “ branches with a chainsaw. Forcibly against ones will.
I worked at a university with a Philosophy Prof that told me "It's our job to shatter all of the students' beliefs"
That kind of Liberals sound like communisim at 1:18:40 ish.
It isn’t communism but the devil is in the details and getting the system which helps those who need it in place becomes a much more vast problem when the time comes to actualize it. It is easy to say, “a system which helps those who need it.” Much harder is it to create that system.
This is an unbelievably excellent interview/conversation because its bedrock is palpable mutual respect. Thank you so much for creating this and making it available and free for the general public.
In the pre-intro teaser clip, the guest uses the term “group-based morality.” I’m not familiar with her, and now I’m very interested in hearing what she has to say aboit this notion. Because that phrase sounds absolutely terrifying.
*Faith is the bedrock to both belief and knowledge.* How do you know what you know and how can you believe it to be true?
*Confidence*
Con (With) Fidence (Faith)
True. Peterson is trying so hard not to be a post modernist he sometimes ends up being a Sam Harris style rationalist.
@@Christian___ Well said! While I understand that he caters to his audience and guests, it seems at times that his faith is a byproduct of knowing instead of believing
The book of Job is likely the most profound, eye-opening (and oldest) book in the Bible. And the work by Carl Jung "Answer to Job" is a life-changing read in itself. It blew my mind when I read it, and changed my (still limited) perception of the nature of God, good, evil, suffering, faith, destiny/effort/will and happenstance.
I’m a Therapist and you have gotten my through some interesting times. Your channel is highly recommended. Great work. I enjoy learning from you
Great guest; it was really interesting listening to her (I'm a beyond-the-pale MAGA type btw).
She said Maga people believe in a lie… What a great way to ruin the conversation. Typical lefty
I’ve been navigating the traumas from my past for several years now. Diagnosed with complex ptsd a long time ago, treatments never helped me. I hit rock bottom again recently and I’ve been navigating this time very differently, analyzing each and every trauma, and I’ve finally started making REAL PROGRESS. The “shattered assumptions” and “implicit belief” structures seem to coincide VERY WELL with what I’ve been noticing about my self. Anxiety serving as an almost alarm of an imbalance in the psyche is SPOT ON. I’m only 15 minutes in and this seems to be hitting the nail on the head in my opinion. 🙂
The guest lost credibility as an expert on the human condition and society when her take on current American politics was utterly one sided and abrasively so.
Unfortunately agreed. As someone below pointed out, she fell into what the discussion had centered on up to that point, highlighting her own inability to update her perspective with the political changes that have occurred around her (based on where she believed she sits on the political/moral spectrum). Up until then it was a great discussion, and her insights and dialog with Dr Peterson were, and remain interesting. I could sense Dr Peterson’s hesitation to dive into her statements (even as she declared multiple political opinions as fact) to avoiding losing course of the fruitful part of their discussion.
Agreed. She’s clinging to her deeply rooted biases. When someone throws out the term”MAGA republican” they have already proven that they are not capable of defining what the true conservative values are. She just called half the country “alt right”.
So, same as JP then?
@@azzy9358no JP seems to be able to criticize both sides. It’s the left who is in control now so that is why they garner more attention.
Yes, I do not understand how this expert can say she cannot talk to 40% of the population and that the example of a good conservative is Liz Cheney, which is not only the minority within the republican and even more a neoconservative making money in Washington off of war. I guess that is the state of the Democratic Party. They live in an alternate universe.
Side note the wood carving art in her office is fire ✓
Amazingly brilliant discussion. Thank you very much. Enjoying watching it!
I'm so grateful to hear such rich conversation. As usual, you've been a blessing Dr. Peterson.
Thank you for the work that you do, you’re an incredible human being. And thank you Daily Wire for putting this on!
Very engaging discussion. Thank you both!
Like so many others have stated, watching a civil, in depth conversation with opposing ideas is just what we need. We can have differing beliefs yet together form consensus. I hope the 45 min continuation parked behind the pay wall is also shared on CZcams as it continued, perhaps even more so, in this fashion. Bravo to the both of you!!
There are 2 main forms of socioeconomic justice (on a political scale):
- The left mostly focuses on fairness according to needs of a person (everybody has the same base needs, see Maslow's pyramid). Minimum standards of satiety, safety and equality of distribution comes to mind.
- The right mostly focuses on fairness according to performance (working longer / harder should yield more results). Having opportunity, striving to improve and providing plenty comes to mind.
I think both are necessary. If you neglect one form of justice, you lose its merits and earn undue suffering. There has to be a balance, since those are often (but not always) opposed. And I think Scandinavia is quite close to this sweet spot.
Dr. Janoff-Bulman provided an excellent lens on the differences in moral outlook between liberals and conservatives; it complements Dr. Peterson's personality-based analysis in an illuminating way. It was also great to see the start of a good faith debate arise out of a lot of common ground as well. However, the core of the discussion -- on the nature of implicit assumptions, shattered assumptions, maps of meaning, etc. -- was stellar and, to my mind, is one of the most fascinating topics that I've heard (philosophically minded) psychologists talk about.
This talk was the best example of different perspectives in search for the truth I've had in years.
Props to the editor for the flawless and innovative ad transitions.
I’m a psychological science student, best discussion I’ve heard in a good while, bravo Jordan and guest
There really should be a part 2 of this.
Excellent conversation
Another thing that shatters expectations besides understanding that bad things happen to good people is also that good people can make bad mistakes that cause damage and harm. We can so quickly call someone who causes harm a bad person but to get to the point that a good person caused a lot of damage and forgive them is quite the journey of rebuilding ourselves psychologically. We so easily want to label someone good or bad but it’s also important to remember that most people are a mixture of good and bad, in fact we are very complex.
Blessings to both of these wonderfully inquisitive minds! One of my favorite episodes 🙏❤
Faith, Hope and Charity - traditional Creed
This was an excellent discussion. Thank you both for putting this on YT.
I love the fact that this combination is helping me wrestle in my cognitive domain, the jousting gets intense and interesting!
Thank you JBP and RJB
Thank you dr. Peterson for the content.
Thank you; I deeply needed this
I started to read Shattered Assumptions and found it very accessible so far.
I would like to see Jordan have a conversation with Buddist Psychology when discussing parts of the mind. I think Delvson Armstrong would be a great person and has been MRI'ed in various states of meditation.
1:18:00 The power of a well developed family reaches deeper then just the inherited money, and here are a few examples of how and why it becomes moral. Segregation is fundamental in the belief of moral preservation. Exclusion. We will agree all day that you mirror your environment but then refuse to mix. Also meet the right people, get involved in the right places, get taught the right habits. Attend to the right social happenings, biuld relationships with the right peers. Get pointed in the right direction by people who created the direction in the first place. It is fundamentally different. To start in a place where the environment is telling you your existence is adding stress to a person's life who already can't handle the problems life has given them, and they may have inherited by their parents. It's sophisticated tribalism vs over bearing unguided social structure that creates more burdens for the most burdened.
I like all the hints… Right
This is the best episode in a while on the channel
- Faith (The Way) > Hope (The Truth) > Love (The Life) : the Greatest of these · · ·
Thank you for your service and for what you do…,is leave me speechless.., every time., I listen to you…, it’s really like asking and listening for answers and praying Lord where will you take me yes, and the answer is thank you
The way they express with their hands is facinating and engaging.
Gestures help.
Thank you both, enjoyed this chat quite a bit.
Thank you both!
Dr Peterson I think we are only functioning through our desires when we are functioning physiologically and emotionally and mentally and spiritually in at LEAST 51% health. Im only thinking here (which haha we all know means it’s statistically pretty wrong thinking 🤣), that I know we are creators first and foremost and that desire is a direct part of the creation process. And when I’m feeling well I can create and manifest with a fair amount of ease. For one thing I’m in touch with the fact that I HAVE desires. When I’m feeling overwhelmed and traumatized, particularly if it remains constant for a while I experience a loss of hope or perhaps some amount of learned helplessness or I hang out in the victim area for a minute too long …… however it is that I perceive a particular experience and if it’s not helpful to me then I no longer am even in touch with my own desires…..
I am in a state of reactivity and and then is when I am wondering if perhaps I’m reacting to expectations??????
Just being reflective ……. 💜
He definitely makes them excited to explain whole ideas
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Ms. Ronnie and Mr. Jordan are both amazing. This is one of my favorite discussions. It was respectful and informative. It was also to hear someone compliment Mr Jordan's thoughts and vice versa 🙏
Excellent conversation- thank you
I love it... Please continue this talk.
Thank you , Sir. 🙏🥷🏽☀️ .
Thank you Jordan for teaching me about the secrets of the cosmos.
I hope they continue this discussion. Please give more examples when applying theories esp for those of us not fluent in academic lingo unless of course that is the audience you are addressing.
If JBP is speaking, it'll be good.
Jordan, your getting better and better at listening.
I dunno. It seems to me that when he listens, it's because his interlocutor is talking nonsense and he's trying to figure out where that nonsense is coming from.
@@jimluebke3869 LOL I totally agree with that in this interview, she completely turned me off when she started calling "MAGA Republicans" alt right and domestic terrorists and all that nonsense, but also in his last conversation with Russel, he interrupted him way less than the time before. Don't get me twisted, Peterson is I'm sure a way better listener than me. I just find it inspiring that someone of his age and stature can continue to aim up and improve character defects. I know many people from his generation that would say "I am the way I am, it's too late to change."
@@stepheninderlied5091 He's certainly a really great listener, when he's in clinician mode and trying to figure people out.
I think his interviews with Brand are hilarious fun. [Commenter 1]: "Brand interrupts him so much" [Commenter 2]: "If anyone can handle it, it's Peterson" [Me]: "If anyone deserves it, it's Peterson." =)
The second interview with Brand, Pastor Paul VanderKlay called a "preach-off", which was exactly right and great fun to watch.
@@jimluebke3869 ya that's right and much more articulate than me. It was a preach off. I love Vander Klay. Appreciate your engagement 😊😁🤙. Not often I have a nice exchange in the CZcams comments.
@@jimluebke3869 all your points were right there.
It's always refreshing, albeit sometimes shocking, to hear different view points and still get to achieving a goal. I keep an open mind about people's biases, I invite viewers to look past this.
Very engaging conversation! Thanks to both of you for this wonderful discussion we can all profit from!
DR Ronnie Janoff-Bulman has over 33k citations, quite incredible.
Dr. Ammon Hillman… you absolutely MUST have a conversation with this man. He is the absolute best authority in the ancient texts that comprise the Bible. Please, PLEASE Do It.
The definition of faith as blind faith in nothong means you try to swim when ypu can't. If you have faith that you can swim and your Dad is with you then you try and your Dad only helps you if you need it. A good Dad wont intervene too soon so tgat you gain the confidence from succeeding without help because He wants you to learn. Faith in God is not blind it appears that way to an outsider as it is faith in someone that is unseen. The little girl goes up tk the big door to push it open for her Dad and does not see that outside her view her Dad's hand helped her to succeed
I love JP's summarization of Liberalism vs Conservatism, and how they are both right: Openness can both allow for new opportunities to enter but it can simultaneously "do us all in." He did more justice to her argument posited by her book than she did imho.
Yes America is MAGA!!❤
This reminds me of the 9 basic motives that lead to success:
The emotion of love
The emotion of sex
The desire for material wealth
The desire for self-preservation
The desire for freedom of body and mind
The desire for personal expression and recognition
The desire for perpetuation of life after death
The desire for revenge
The emotion of fear
Excellent conversation 🎉🎉🎉
Wow Jordan, the two of you really need to team up to help fix the world. The two of you are brilliant together.