The esports bubble POPS / Where do we go now? - The Four Horsemen S2E10 (feat. Devin Nash)
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2024
- Devin Nash, former CLG CEO, joins the show to discuss the onset of esports winter and the looming issues with the broader industry. The Four Horsemen trace the failures of monetization that brought us to this point, as well as the zealous over-investment that caused the esports bubble. They discuss how viewership was assumed to be exponentially increasing, the inflation of player salaries, the lack of media rights, the failure of properly serving advertisers, and more.
Devin Nash's video on the collapse of esports: • The Esports Industry i...
The Four Horsemen is the premier esports industry show that reacts to important news and critical conversations across all major titles. Esports veterans Duncan "Thorin" Shields, Richard Lewis, and Christopher "MonteCristo" Mykles use their decades of experience to shed light and debate on key esports topics as they emerge. Each episode they are joined by an expert guest to help further provide insider information on the topic at hand.
This episode was filmed on April 14th, 2023.
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Come join the Insight on Esports Discord for in-depth discussion across esports: / discord
0:00:00 - Intro
0:05:57 - LCS teams for sale + LCS viewership
0:12:46 - Expectations vs reality in esports
0:38:37 - Esports failed in marketing
1:05:27 - The publishers' role
1:19:00 - Inflated player salaries
1:37:49 - Other grievances + what can be done?
1:56:00 - Where esports is headed
2:34:35 - New wave of esports?
2:57:52 - Closing thoughts - Hry
Devin Nash is exactly who I'd want to see in an episode like this, should be hype
Richard hit the nail on the head with his points this episode regarding conflation and dilution of the esports identity.
Would love to see a further episode/video exploring esports' "identity" and how we can/should influence that after the VC bubble bursts. Perhaps a respectful distancing in some way from adjacent industries/scenes (in terms of identity) is in order? If that is even possible?
Who would have known that sponsoring creators would be more financially viable than sponsoring Teams or Companies with terrible business practices or outright Evil Geniuses mistreating their minions.
cry harder Live Evil.
On the "esports" consumer, and why they don't buy anything from marketing or ad spend: I leave the broadcast on one monitor muted, and play another game while I wait for the actual game to start, tune in to the game for a 20 minutes, usually listening to better commentary from Dom or LS. Based on my age and income, I'm sure they'd love me to be a consumer, but I don't even know what they're selling.
It reminds me of watching sports games when I was a kid. As soon as those commercials came on, we muted the tv because of how loud they are, changed the channel, or went to the bathroom, got food, etc.
Does anybody watch the ads on any of these broadcasts? Dumb people?
Of course gamers are a bunch of ADHD dopamine addicts that don't pay attention to ads.
Are technology-based sponsors not interested or offering enough for these eSports organizations? Are there not sponsors that would generally be more appealing for the typical demographics watching this content?
@@Gizzgy There's probably two things going on.
1. gamers are cheap/ spend their disposable income on alcohol, marijuana (as evidenced by their freeze pipe sponsor), or other things of that nature. They're mostly watching this content because it's free. They discussed State Farm being a sponsor. When I renewed my homeowner's insurance, I got quotes from the top 5 brands (including them), and picked the cheapest. What good was the ad? Was it going to change my purchasing decision?
2. When it comes to technology sponsors, I already have a computer. Or I'll just buy parts and upgrade. Who would buy an out of the box rig? They're incredibly low value. Remember, gamers are a bunch of cheap, economically minded people. The games we play teach us trade-offs and opportunity cost.
They're advertising to people who spend more time researching how to get good at a game than actually playing a game. You don't think they're gonna research prices on insurance coverage? You can't sell them premium electronics, you can't sell them traditional goods, you can't sell them anything really. They're the one group you don't want to advertise to. They really should lean into consumption goods, and fitness/ dating/ alternative colleges/ trade schools, etc. if they want to attract male customers.
And the broader marketing 101 element here is the majority of purchasing decisions are made by women, or made to attract women. E.G. Gillette doesn't advertise their razors to men. Their ads are designed for a women to watch, think, "my boyfriend or husband would like those" and go buy them.
Women statistically, aren't gamers/ aren't serious gamers/ aren't into esports/ aren't watching this content/ aren't making these purchasing decisions. Yes, you can find some stats that women play games, but they have much lower levels of engagement, hours played, play mobile games instead of PC games, don't engage in the competitive elements of games nearly as much as men do, etc.
Why bother advertising anything to gamers, other than other games, which no company would want anyway...
A lot of good points here. I'll agree that I am always the type to go and find the best value. Hell, only the other day I was looking up the best types of battery for my electronic shaver, whether lithium or that other type, rechargeable or not etc. Adverts rarely have any effect on me on actually buying something. I don't have much spare money so I make sure it goes far.
I honestly prefer to consume esports through vods rather than live for this exact reason. Esports broadcasts are 90% bs ads and killing time until the matches start so you'd be a fool to sit there and watch the whole thing imo lol.
I must say that it is very reasonable why you don't spend money on those products, or don't watch ads. I am the same too.
BUT.
Everything you say is based on YOUR OWN experience. Plus, if your friends doing the same thing, it is still YOUR OWN bubbles.
You and I, we don't have the large-scale statistics to form a conclusion, so always remember to be sceptical with your own pov because it is subjective.
This is going to be a banger. Devin knows so much about the business side of esports and online advertising.
Has to be one of the best episodes yet, great stuff
So glad this show exists
I loved this episode, Devin should be on more! Might need to make a five horseman overlay cause Devin fits in great with everyone
While Thorin was ranting about seeing brand names on the broadcast as background noise, i realised that the only 2 sponsors of the LEC that i actually remember are KIA thanks to the music videos, and KitKat thanks to the pauses memes, and i watch LEC regularly. Crazy to think how much of the advertising we actually filter out.
Could have listened to 3 more hours of this how amazing
I don't know a single person who doesn't just find ads annoying. Outside of the subconscious influence, the vast majority of us are turned off by ads as a whole, in general. The more intrusive, the more frustrating it is that they're there. Also, I don't think gamers give a shit about 99% of products that are advertised to them. I thought it was strange that Mastercard was a sponser, as an example, super super strange. Who watching LCS cares about that? What needs to be advertised on games IS OTHER GAMES, but that is NEVER going to happen because it's counterintuitive to the popularity of the game that is being advertised on.
When massive companies advertise, it's almost purely as a blocker to other companies taking that spot.
Me, never even tried adblock in 20 years. But some ads yeah are annoying
Mastercard is the exact sort of sponsor that you want for stuff like LCS. Lots of people growing into adulthood in the audience, the chance to snag lots of lifelong customers. Its the same reason that banks/insurance companies are big sponsors. It might not matter to you, but to the people who have never done any of this stuff yet, it can inform their decisions hugely.
@@Thundawich why on earth would I base my choice of credit card on an ad presented to me while watching pro LoL?
@@m4ng4n Because you were never presented with anything else?
This was a fantastic episode, with the perfect guest for the topic, extremely enlightening on the state of the industry, with the best of esports providing the best quality content.
Devin Nash is such a great guest for this content. Love Devin and LFN!
Wow every member brought so much to the topic on this one. This is one of those that's gonna be relevant for people in the industry to watch for years ahead.
Devin is great and a good fit for LFN.
Devin is perfect for this
Richard saying "remember in 2016 when I would make an article and things would change" really hit. Post 2017 society and social media has just been financial bubbles and immorality parades
>furry poster
@@AleXoEx0 >2017
My man doesn't know that all money is backed by US dollar which is backed by nothing. Federal Reserve is an infinite money glitch.
Btw. Verlisify is basically just a drama creation channel that tries to ruin the perception of others in the space.
@@vez3834 That's a lie. Thanks for further proving my haters are ill and deranged
@@Verlisify Sure sure. That's normal for a CZcamsr to say. Just don't take anything he says at face value.
I like how thorin refers to casual fans as if any of them are listening
Ur one of the casuals lol
@@jeff230394 Jeff has a need to feel better than others, and put them down if he can. Only he is not a casual. He is the ultimate carrier of knowledge. He is the main character of his own story. We can all learn a lot about Jeff's sad existence from that single sentence.
@@codingwithellie thank you
@@codingwithellie And you have a need to feel better than others by pointing Jeff out. And I have a need to feel better than others by pointing you out pointing Jeff out etc. It's an endless cycle of discontentment. Just like esports.
@@Johnherold121 it’s more fun to just upvote the deranged commenters and watch the world burn
Hella interesting episode. I don't really watch much 4 horsemen but this was a lot more interesting (+cordial tbh lol) discussion than I expected. Will defo have to watch more episodes
There's nothing more cute than a grown man fanboying over Thooorin
What about two grown men fanboying over thooorin?
You need to live more if you think there is nothing more cute than a grown man fanboying over thorin..
@@Trippyisop you need to live more if you think two people joking around in the comment section of a thooorin video means they dont live enough.
pro tip: dont do any social media or comment sections. theyre not suited for your mentality.
@@Trippyisop I was obviously joking
@@PathSythe 😅😅😮😅😮😮😮😮😮😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
One of the best episodes to date. Devin had great insight and jived so well with the rest. Give me more!
Saw 2 clips from Thorin and had to check this episode out very good topic/discussion loving listening the politics and economics of esports from such knowledgeable members of the industry
devin was amazing in this, like everyone else of course.
I'm glad Devin is telling it straight with the challenges on selling 'the story' in a league full of imports.
"We threw money at it" pretty much sums up the story.
crazy podcast, my first time listening to anything like this and it went very deep into all kinds of topics. thumbs up!
I recommend watching some of Richards other videos on his channel or
Excellent, if sobering video. I'm glad there were multiple topics of discussion where y'all didn't exactly see eye to eye on things, it added to the breadth of the conversation.
Oh esports, how I love you and want what's best for you. We're in for a rough ride...
On the other hand. It's always darkest before dawn. The field must be burned before it can be planted etc.
A lot of people will burn. But from the ashes something better is likely to take its place.
One of the best TFH episodes. Covered this topic and summed up why esports is in this position perfectly.
Currently listening to Rich talk about the Mastercard sponsor stuff and it got me thinking. Zoomers have their parasocial obsessive relationships with streamers, esports players, and influencers to the point where they spend hours a week watching their content. Not only could those players talk about how their mastercard credit card helped them move out from their parents, eat food, live life, etc. The streamer could do some sort of 5 or 10% discount on merch if purchased with a mastercard credit card, therefore encouraging the zooners to not only sign up for the card, but also to purchase things with it that gives the streamer and brand more money
You’re hired
shark mindset
You say zoomers but I don't see zoomers watching esports. I don't and it's not a topic of conversation even with others who play games. You're a niche, but big, audience of people who mostly watch this shit for background noise and you will never be anything else because you're on twitch and youtube.
There's simply better entairtenment than you out there, which is actually playing a game
Fantastic episode listened all the way from start to finish, its sad that this is whats happening to esports in the end but the culling had to happen at some point. The best we can hope for is that the grifters grifted their last grift, and now the people who truly care about esports will be left to pick up the pieces and try to build something sustainable and real that true esports fans are proud of. Always a fantastic listen thank you Monte, Thorin and Richard, as well as Devin who really was able to provide some key insights. Keep up the great work all of you.
YOOO? Devin "The Master of the Notepad" Nash? This episode about to be goooooood
so weird i started watching devin recently and he randomly shows up here. love his content
Absolutely Loved it :) Keep up the good work!
Devin killed it as the guest. Well done.
This is a seriously intelligent treasure trove of conversation.
Great episode lads, been a while since I watched a video with The Trio :)
Loved the end of this discussion. Real talk, people need to wake up we squandered the advantages we had in this country and time is up.
This one is a goated episode ngl, devin is a horseman through and through
Echoing everyone else but man it was a blast to watch this one. Devin killed it
Can't wait for this one
One of the best advertisements I remember in esports were the "This is HyperX" series from like 11 years ago, I don't conciously look for any HyperX products but when I'm looking at RAM sticks, I find myself always immediately trusting anything HyperX branded purely because I really liked those advertisements with people I knew and followed in the scene.
I think our biggest problem these days, just from a very surface/outside perspective, there's no one to really latch on to. Players and brands feel faceless, they 'feel' corporate, they don't feel like a bunch of guys who love playing the same game as me.
That might just be me aging out of what would have connected with me in the past, but I just cannot feel engaged by any of the personalities or even the broadcast when it comes to LCS, which is weird because I love CaptainFlowers and Kobe yet I'll watch a co-stream over the official broadcast because it feels realer/more grounded.
Pretty cool to see all of these people together. I use to watch thorin and Richard Lewis when I was into Csgo a long time ago and I watched and liked Devin Nash a lot when he was on destiny’s stream and then train wrecks podcast. Then funnily enough I just found monte from watching podcasts with IWD
Very insightful episode with a great addition from Devin. Been tuning in to LFN podcasts the last two months and I've absolutely loved it. Will definitely keep supporting you guys in the future
Best Episode on Esports that ever existed an, I also came up through MLG when it was about hopes and dreams and very little money. Glad I was able to live through it.
Excellent informative episode, thank you!
devin nash bringing up dark and darker devs as a cool small studio that split of of the big dev and made a cool game had me chuckling
Really cool guest, nice to listen to him
First I have seen of Devin nash. Really interesting to hear him speak.
It takes a lot of courage to talk about the bubble popping as people with vested career interest in the scene's ability to survive and thrive long term. LFN is the only ones that keep it real in an industry built on the foundations of scamming and grifting
As someone who loved the LCS. The reason I don't watch the LCS is quite simple we have a 0.00000001% of winning worlds. Then I hear why players don't want play certain champions or want to put the time in. I rather watch the lpl or lck even eu. We where the laughing stock wen it took us 5 games to take a tower. I can't go through that again.
Excellent guest choice btw
Omg. Why have i not found these guys sooner.
Banger epi boys. Devins great.
1:23:23 the littered streets of teemo hats!!!! LMFAO
I wonder if inflation or cost of living has impacted sales of sponsors. At least in my case I have decent income but still need to budget rent, car, food, etc. rather than buying new specs and what not that I could when I was younger living with parents.
On the advertiser front it’s insane to me that faze have twistzz, who has said several times that he’s into cars, and are partnered with Porsche and haven’t milked that
That's assuming Porsches partnership with faze goes beyond brand names and regular fees, which I highly doubt.
Not every sponsor actually sponsors you with their product, especially considering how Porsche doesn't usually sponsor their own high end cars. It's more about establishing the brand name and keeping it relevant in the *minds* of folks than actually hoping to directly sell their cars. It was the same for the audi x astralis "sponsorship", even if Audi doesn't actually go that much into the high end sector as Porsche does.
Very interesting vod. Devin was a good guest, very knowledgable (though a little too hyper).
Wow the freeze pipe sponsor has been amazing. But hearing about the 4/20 video puts a great capper on it! I wish I wasn't a poor college student and able to buy some new glass
Best episode yet!
This episode was fucking stellar! I wish Devin becomes the resident fourth horseman.
Devin was a sick guest great episode.
Devin Nashs favorite sentance seems to be 'well talk about it later' or some equivilant :P
Link for the Devin Nash video is not in the description yet
Now it's there
having devin on was an awesome move
Devin was great here, understand he was keen to be on this and probably nervous (for lack of a better word) but if he were to become a somewhat regular guest (think Lurppis) he would be a great guest.
Good stuff, lads. Downsizing for a while will actually help e-sports, imo. Expose a lot. Can't wait.
Cheers.
I love the smell of apocalypse in the morning
I think the reason there is no ROI on sponsoring LCS is the total lack of content from the teams.
Most teams don't even produce content to begin with.
A twitter post when they get a new player, maybe one when they kick the team at the end of the season, thats it.
And the broadcast, it was boring in the past and now they try to copy LEC it has become cringe so people end up muting between games and probably during most games to.
Devin Nash's gamertag should be Petrol
the most frightening point made in this is something Thorin said. Esports is dead and no one wants to invest anymore. The last greater fool left is the Saudis, Qatar, China etc. Those are the only people left who are willing to invest in esports and it’s sad. it’s over. goodnight
ESPORTS could learn from traditional sports and allow timeout and TV timeouts. That would allow for better ratings with advertising as well as giving the team games a more professional feel as a more well coached and orchastrated performance rather than a chaotic race to the finish. There would be rules associated with the timeouts to avoid abuse, of course. The fact of the matter is that these professional events run more like a glorified pick-up tournament rather than a global championship series.
Other than how chaotic and inprofessional the games are, ESPORTS can also take notes from NASCAR/Soccor and require player to wear sponsorship logos and find some way to display them in-game.
The hypothetical platform that Monte and Thorin discuss at around 2:28:00 exists and its called Nebula
Has anyone been able to find the source he used to find 100T demographics? He called it Geek or Giq.
great video y'all
bought 2 times at freezepipe, not one has arrived yet.. stuck in oslo it seems
More Devin Nash!
2:47:00 at Devin and Monete's comments about 100T merch: The golf drop sold out LOL
I love F1 and WWE, but I try not to directly send money to the Saudi royal family so I pirate all the F1 races and WWE shows. I used to pay for the WWE network until they did the Saudi deal.
That's about the best I can do, when I'm aware of someone like the Saudis owning a company or product I like, I try to find an alternative or a way to pirate it.
Problem is, it's getting harder and harder to avoid...
Temperrr, Rain, Apex, Teeqo, Banks, (argueably twists) the founders of what was once just a call of duty “clan” who blew up off the back of a YT series dubbed illcams.
Maybe the t and ct need to have a eaport jersey on like Astralis, Liquid, NAVI, G2 and so one. As you se them more in game thant outside the game. I think that would be pretty cool
3 hours of straight fire
Awesome video
I only comment to increase engagement statistics for the channel.
People support people. League viewers are mostly working now. We know what companies are and if they’re being helmed by boards instead of identifiable, passionate people, then there’s no drive to support.
The funniest thing is that though viewership numbers are lower, the league esports fanbase should be one that is much more willing and able to spend money, as they're the fans that have been committed to scene for a long period of time, and now finally have likely better than average incomes, with a better than average percent of our income as disposable. We used to be teenagers - college students, high school students, and even in many cases (myself included), middle school students. Now we are young adults who don't go out, have wealthier backgrounds (thus higher incomes), and likely don't have families yet to spend money on. At least for League, the industry should be doing better now than ever. But due to massive incompetence on the teams' and Riot's side, it's a really bleak outlook
55:00 I don't think Thorin understood how advertising works. The fact that he can mention all the brands that advertise show that it worked. Advertising is mostly subconscious and it will have an impact on your decision-making (for buying a product for example) at some point.
Well, Devin explained afterward exactly what I tried to explain lul
I'm wondering how much more Rolex or other sponsors in the Formula 1 make by spending marketing budget on sponsoring teams or tracks. It feels much more like a prestige investment than a ROI based investment and I guess esport is similar to that in regards to advertising if I hear these 4 talking about it. But it also makes me happy that we gamers are not blindly buying stuff just because "our team" has them as a sponsor.
Faze clan requiring power of attorney is wild.
This is so true! I watch LCS for flowers, Kobe, and azael… and I’ve been here since beta 😅 I’m unfortunately a TSM fan
"you're a loss leader as an entity in the universe" LMAO
10:09 - Devin is my soulmate
love my new freeze pipe ;)
Does that mean the NEOM deal is still on the table?
I feel like H3CZ got it right with the content creation as part of being a professional player. Since esports will not go to PPV, there is a lack of ticket prices to keep the scene going. Therefore teams should create value elsewhere.
I loved the inside info/takes and the foresight they allow. Don't like the view, but hey
Esport advertising the wrong stuff to the esport crowd. If they made more funku pops or weird nerdy merchandise they would make better profit.
But if you want esport to be profitable you need to play a game that is owned by the players like football, and not the game developers as they just can shot it down without notice.
Admittedly I'm commenting before finishing the video but I'd like to point out that I was a fan back when I was young and poor. And who sponsored League? Bud light. Alienware. Honda. State farm. BMW?! When was I ever gonna buy their products? When I hopefully break the glass ceiling and land into a higher socioeconomic status or reach the drinking age to find out bud light is terrible
I feel like I'm new school when I say I want esports to be like it was in 2013, and even then I knew there were bad elements in esports. We don't need millionaires we need people who care about the competition
If there's no money there's no sport. That's one of the issues.
I love my freeze pipe xl, thank you monte/LFN
I got done with the Devin Nash video on this then there’s 3 more hours. Perfect. I don’t have any need for the pipe but maybe I buy it for my sister
big devin nash fan