Testing the BatteryHookup Nickel Fuse for 18650 batteries
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- čas přidán 8. 11. 2019
- Trying my best to test the Battery Hookup's new cell level nickel-plated 20 amp fused sheets. I think this one is over my head as I don't really understand what points I need to be focusing on. Hoping the community can chime in and point me the direction you want me to head with testing. I have a heap here so let me know.
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18650 cells used in this test were recovered from scraped laptop batteries and were Samsung ICR18650-28A cells
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Thanks for tuning in as always!
Pete
#diypowerwalls #hbpowerwall #batteryhookup #18650ED
A key test (for me) would be to see how many amps it takes to 'blow the fuse' . Thank you sir as always for your efforts!
+1 this. Average Joe would do that with various fuses he was entertaining for a pack/build. Pete, can you do the same? Thanks for the great content!
Yep, in process now fingers crossed i have time to release another follow up video within a day or three
According to the manufacturer, the single fuse will blow 'fast' at 8 A. The fuse can sustain a continuous current of 3 A without voltage drop, no heat or power loss. Sounds like a great product. I want to know how much heat a defective 18650 builds up when pushing 7 A through the fuse - under the 8 A limit - without blowing it. Will that cell overheat enough to affect surrounding cells and start a chain reaction?
Thanks for the video! I’m very interested in how that strip tests out. It’s such a great idea BatteryHookup had.
Instead of adding additional nickel strips on top how about having the main wire leads soldered onto the nickel strip along the entire length of the pack? This would prevent the concentration of current at the two points you have now. It wouldn’t help with the cell heating though.
Putting small pieces of tape over the centers of each cell’s spot weld point on the nickel strip and then spray painting it flat black would make it easy to see (using the Flir) the heating of the thin strips from the cells to the main strip metal sheet. Just remove the tape when you are ready to spot weld the sheet on. By getting very close you could then check for how even the strip heating is at each cell.
If you had any cells with high current ratings you could do just a tiny pack to test the nickel strip. The higher current rating for the cells would keep them cooler and make it easier to see any heating in the nickel strip.
Love the video and looking forward for more test on this fused nickel strip. The more practical way i see it that you have to go through adding a nickel or copper bussbar across the pack based on this test especially to spread out the heat and current transfer.
If the goal was to test the fuses a power supply is all that's needed as another commentator said.
If your interested in heat spread. Move your terminal connection from one end to the centre. Solder, dust with Matt black paint (remembering to mask the terminals for battery connections), and repeat. Another commentator mentioned moving the connection point also.
My gut feeling for large packs deployed with this hookup system will require a series of power taps per side, evenly spaced and calculated by how hard and how wide your going.
This video was as much learning as sharing knowledge. With all these awesome comments i'm going over a few things again and see where it leads. I have no idea WHY i didn't go opposite ends for the battery pickup points.. Stupid rookie mistake.
Great video Peter! Always strive to inform and educate.
I was thinking, duplicating this test with the “traditional” copper busbars and compare overall temperature results...
Sounds like a great use of time! let me know and i'll pin the results on the FB group
Did you ever finish the pack 5 testing of the pack that you made without testing the individual cell capacity?
Wire your terminations so if the pack is sitting in front of you with positive on top and you have soldered it to the right side of the pack, you solder the negative to the negative (on the bottom) at the leftmost side of the pack. This way the cells will share the load equally. Electricity takes the path of least resistance, thats why the batteries near your terminations were the hottest.
Odd as Pete knows that but didn't do it.
Current flows along every available path back to the source, it's simply proportional to the amount of resistances along each path.
Great vid, where do you get your battery holders? I got some on ebay and the cells rattle in them.
I think the best way to conduct this test is to take your reading with the flir camera at the insulated part of the positive cable or negative cable. that way the pack could still naturally cool. Or just try to place a small piece of tape anywhere on the pack and that spot will give you a true reading without blocking the natural cooling.
Cell fusing is meant to isolate a cell that fails short due to dendrite growth, preventing the failed cell from turning into an explosive fuse itself. It's not meant to be your pack fuse, which it looks like you're testing for. In a failed cell scenario, the whole pack is trying to force current through it, and for that it's perfect. And still low-enough resistance that it won't produce excess heat and power loss in regular use.
Yes it wasn't a good test but it sure was fun.. and I'm here to enjoy myself and share my journey over teaching others.. but if thats a byproduct that's great. I learn more from these types of comments sometimes than hours of messing around. So thanks for the comment.
you could brush some matte black paint on the nickel to combat the reflective/emmisivity of the material itself, with minimal heat soak.
The paint they use on colourbond sheeting might fit the bill. It's an electrical insulator and shouldn't peal in the heat. I have IR tested many sheets on the wall(while performing IR tests on cables), takes 1000VDC with no break down.
You could test out thermal conductivity of insulation material by putting a few different bits in the oven for a bit, then set your FLIR to show the hottest temp in red, take them out of the oven, choose the hottest one.
put the neg the other end, and if you put the point of connection on the side and then the opposite side for the neg, so opposite end and opposite side you will get better even energy dissipation. my personal opinion is you need a copper buss bar down the whole length, I did a 20 amp discharge like you with a 4x5p pack and 1 single copper 6mm2 busbar on opposite ends and even that 1 bar on the pos side heated up, see the pic i posted of the plugable ones on bookface. I'm going for 4 bars either side per 4x5p pack to keep the thermal low on a 40amp draw (1amp per cell) so 10amp per copper bussbar. its nice and even also. which is good for the cells.
Good video, thanks 👍, please tell me where did the welding machine take 18650? link, very compact
You can check it out here - www.secondlifestorage.com/kweld
Hi,
Which wire got hotter negative or positive. The wire that goes to the load, which one should be shorter negative pr positive? I will be making a battery and one of the wires that goes to the load will be longer than the other. Should the longer wire be positive or negative?
Thank you
Since you have both cables (+ and -) on the same end of pack, the nickel sheets are drawing high current on that one side. You have to spread the current (and the heat) evenly over the full surface of the sheets by putting the leads on opposite end of the pack. Do not enclose the pack with insulating tape as it prevents the hot air to evacuate. You can spray the nickel sheets with mat black paint for improved heat radiation.
the video after this one i changed ends with no difference in heat inside the pack. and Tape made the pack much hotter for sure
@HBPowerwall what are the key things you want to know? Probably you should make those concrete, and do the same tests on the new fuse plate vs. your existing design?
Wouldn't the most interesting test be testing the fuses - as you draw or charge with a way to high current, and see if they break one after another or most at the same time? Maybe even simulating a failing cell with a shorting or a beefy resistor at a specific cell and test if the fuse actually breaks?
can't find these in EU, someone got somewhere to buy these strip?
Can a 12v 100w solar panel charge a 24volt battery? What fuse can i use, and if i only use it for a 35 watt gadget, can i use it 24/7 without unplugging it. Please simplify. Thanks
Why fuse both sides of battery, if when it starts to get hot both sides would get hot right. Any other wiring where fuse protection is needed, it just gets put on the + side not + & - polarity?
I wonder if you can double up the nickle. Just remove the fuses from one. So you have double the nickle and only one fuse. Maybe u can take the insulation off the wire and run it down the length of the module sandwiching in between the nickle. I cant wait I purchased a spot welder just for these fuses.
Hi mate. What is the spot welder your using now and where can I get one? I have 3200 18650 to put into banks of 15x15 and I'm liking the battery hook ups fused nickel strips you were using. Thanks Mash Black.
You can check it out here - www.secondlifestorage.com/kweld
I believe that moving the neg term to other end to help the power go though all cell as much as possible. May be even going in a cross field with diagonal pos neg connections. Maybe I am overthinking this, but I trying to think as a electron would travel. hope that get a chuckle if nothing else. Me - Grid tied solar 3.44 kw - $ 30.oo per month, 3 Adult Suburban persons, Trying to more off grid independent.
Thanks for all your vids. when I win the lotto, I will help out more, I promise.
Whe you attach the lead wires to the nickel what temp do you use the solder iron at
I can't remember but I would think as hot as possible, get the heat in, solder melted and get out asap
Hey Pete good video mate, the heat appears to be emanating from the cell's so if your aim was to test, can the packs take a good load then i think it worked i mean under 60c and your ok as the average working temp for 18650's is around 55/60c on average that i have seen when they are under heavy load. So i would say that given the spacing of the cell's that it's about right on the heat buildup.
If you wanna test the nickel strip to see at what point it breaks then the easiest way is to setup a single battery shorted through the strip and see what happens. or more scientifically if you have a bench power supply then you can take a bit of strip and load the supply to the voltage your pack would be and then start at 2 amp max and then increase it slowly until it blows thus giving you the temp and time of the failure.
Time for a couple controlled (al-be-it destructive) tests.
I think the nickle was ok! What can those cells handle during discharge. Seems all the heat was from cells only,
Cells are 5600mah max discharge rated according to the 18650 Community Cell Database secondlifestorage.com/showthread.php?tid=1772
The parts of the cells that create the most heat: the ends, were covered with insulating tape. That starts the heating, which increases resistance, which creates more heat.
Most power lines are uninsulated for this reason
Some good suggestions here already. It'd be great to see temp difference if the cells were arranged so that all cells were exposed to air on at least one side. E.g. 2p-1CellGap-2p. Maybe use 5p tape and leave the centre cell unpopulated, with the void vertical and open at both ends to allow convection?
That would be a great but unrealistic test as typical loads would not see that sort of draw for that long. I'm building an 80P version and going to repeat the test
What are those black cards at the top of your battery packs on the wall?
They are my mounts more info and plans here - www.secondlifestorage.com/mounts
Hello,
We find the device that allows you to weld by point as well as the charger
Do you have an internet link
Thank you
Franck
18650shrinkandcellholders.com/kweld/
Do you know if they make those busses for 26650?
don't think so, but I bet if these work well they will be soon added to the lineup of products
Just purchased 50 ft. For 200cdn . only down side where glass fuses only cost me about 20 bucks
Nickel has 4 times as much resistance as copper. There would need to be 4x as much nickel to keep the resistance (and heat) the same as your old copper bus bars. The nickel may be wider but it’s very thin.
I know they use nickel on laptop packs etc but but the think the current would be a lot lower.
That’s my 2c worth anyway.
Once a realistic size bank with an equally realistic load v cell type/chemistry is made. Most if not all my heat seems to be coming from the cells them self not the fusing, or nickel - edit : Cables are also under rated, i'll repeat the test with just 20 or perhaps 15 amps to see the results
Where can I get the wall mount you use?
If you're in brisbane Australia I have 4 left $80 each
What is the spot welder that you're using
it's a KWeld unit supplied from 18650shrinkandcellholders.com/kweld/ I did a video on it about a year ago here - czcams.com/video/4UgBG0oFAwU/video.html
I'm curious to see the same test but with old school wire fuses and copper twisted bus bars. Then we could compare vs the new systems.
New way is so flipping fast, no heat from soldering, no swearing at spotwelding fuses - gamechanger
It does look pretty slick :)
Just a thought. Wouldn't it be better to use the fuse nickel only on the negative side and use regular strips on the positive? Also I would catty corner the positive and negative output wires to distribute the load evenly. Might try kapton tape instead too.
Other way around - use fuses on the positive side only as all the cases are negative.
I use soldered magnet wire, but double up on the negative side.
Makes it easier to check if you're only expecting a break on one side, and +ve side is much easier and safer to solder.
@@ahaveland Why I was thinking on having the fuse on the negatives is because they have more surface area and won't get as hot with high currents.
@@davestech6357 I like the logic, but the heat conductivity of a thin wire is poor so it won't help to cool the fuse much, and you need it to blow when needed.
Just need to select the right gauge wire for the job where it's used, and I don't think it's critical - 4 to 8A should be enough to protect it if it goes short and the pack tries to dump into it.
The speed that this product can go on is only limmeted to how hot the electrodes get less than ten min for the positive side of an 80P. That is huge time saving over spotwelding fuse wire or soldering. MASSIVE down side is replacing a cell.
What flux do you use for soldering on cells
Amtech ebay.to/2K8HbJ3 - its good stuff!
Aloha from Hawaii. I am very interested in making a diy powerwall, however , it is difficult to get batteries shipped here. On the other hand I am curious considering all the time you spend taking apart and testing batteries to build them is it really saving you money? Or is it just a good hobby?
It started as a joke, moved to something interesting, turned into a hobby - then worked - THEN got out of hand......
@@HBPowerwall Well you are full of good ideas. thanks for taking the time to teach us. my house already has 18 255 /215 solar panels with a smart meter that puts excess back to the grid during the day and i use grid power at night. i am trying to figure out how to put a powerwall in but just started looking into it. i also have 2 solar hot water panels and tank. that was my first install but still have a 300 per month bill to power company.
What did you want to test? I think you tested the cells with a 1.5A discharge, which is quite high, and they got hot. The heat seams mostly to come from the cells, not the nickel strips, as the "fuse wires" probably can not transfer the heat from the nickel into the batteries. You should increase the number of cells in the tested pack, so that you have less discharge on the individual cell, (and less heat building up in the cells) and the heat building up in the nickel is really from the strips themself. Also, your pack got so hot at the end , because you turned it with the tape upwards, which kind of blocked the warm air rising between the cells.
Hopefully this has not been asked already. Was wondering if you need to have the fuses on both sides of the batteries or will one side do? In theory if one side blows the battery is taken out of the equation correct?
Some use both sides with fuses - personally i think that is madness, typically I just do the positive side.
@@HBPowerwall Thanks so much! LOVE your videos! :)
Been waiting for awhile for someone to make this style nickle plate. Yew!!
Is it even worth using it on the negative?
for build speed alone - hell yes!
@@HBPowerwall it has to be nickle plated steel for that price? Is it magnetic?
@@Boboo5 It has been said many times its nickel plated not pure nickel
Solder cells to Cu stripes from - and Cu striped + fuses from + side. Cu is better current conductor. My cells are soldered, temps 18 to 24 *C.
Problem is the mixing of metal and electricity causes copper to corrode. Most of the big battery users like myself use aluminum instead of copper for that very reason.
necesitas colocar dos bus bar de cable por lado - & +, luego soldar cada polo a bus bar de a pares. asi evitaras el calor.
I think the nickel fuses are a great idea for quick assembly with a spot welder, however nickel is not a good conductor.
Think about all the paths the current can take, and where current density would be the greatest.
So in this case the best place for the terminal would be in the centre of the plate, but the nickel around the nearest cells would be carrying the sum of all the cells further away.
For a 200P or bigger pack, you would really need to have multiple copper wires connecting to the plate that then combine into one big one, but that's also extra work!
I think would still use a thick copper bus bar soldered to the whole length to collect the current, but then you really wouldn't need the nickel, plate -- just the fuse bits!
Much depends on what current you want to demand from the cells.
Here's an idea for Tom - just make the nickel fuses to make attaching them to the cells and bus bars easy.
Are you trying to test fuse strips to see if 30a discharge over 40 cells would melt the fuse? Someone else did a individual test on one of the fuses and it took 10a to melt even though specifications said 8a. At least the title of your vid is suggesting that. If using Battery Hook Up fuse plate for heat dissipation, I really wouldn’t think adding another 3 thin strips on a plate would make a difference. Maybe if you doubled the fuse plate (removing the fuses on one of them) would be a better indicator of heat distribution if your thinking the heat is from the current through the plate. But if heat is being generated by the battery then i would go for a heat sink plate with fins.
What’s 200p? I’m trying to learn lol, I’m assuming a bigass battery but the more specific meaning
Parallel - train tracks - positive is one train track, negative is the other one.. x200
I personally would try a much smaller test. Say just five cells so you can better judge individual fuse rating, which I think is more important for internal cell short circuit protection. Just my two cents. Cheers!
Thanks for the feedback Mike - Tom has covered the fuse tests well i think here - facebook.com/groups/diypowerwalls/permalink/969337170079511/
Got a new holders for those batteries
It looks different broo
The honeycomb type?
Do you really have to fuse top and bottom?
No, in my option its madness - but does look good and very fast to put on.
only 13AH for a 20p bank is .65amp hours per cell. should be 2-3, or more. I guess fast discharge really does kill how much is stored.
I would try putting a negative & positive wire the whole way across the pack.
I changed to top and bottom in the video I just released didn't really change the results cells were still 66deg c.. how ever over a later P pack it would be a much clearer difference i think.
How easy to replace 1 cell (when it blows)?
A bit of time as you'd expect - BUT offset that with the build speed and fact your not dropping so much heat into cell from the soldering iron and if you do need to do maintenance - me it's neither here nor there really. This is my only path forward.
@@HBPowerwall I'm starting to like the glass axial fuses. They can also be spot welded and replaced easily. I dont see much chance of an open flame if one blows.
@@mwint1982 agree but looks ugly (if that's even a consideration)
i use glass-only no metal endcap 5a axial fuses on my packs, which are currently small enough that i could solder to existing tabs
it's very tempting to go metal punchout bus+fuse approach if i get any larger. that is, if they could carry current
heya well this is the first test so have to think of something else
You try to weld the negative in the opposite side
I made this change in the next test i thinks from memory
Try taking power from two sides of each terminal.
perhaps
Double fused for double safety!
for 10x the speed to attach!
More solder on the joints. Bigger wire.
For sure! those cables were hot!
It would be great if someone made those same nickel fuse strips but in copper... 🤯😤😤😤
Too soft perhaps?
Look for multi strand flexible electrical cable, and choose a cross sectional area/ current capacity rated to your cell. You will have strip it. You may be able to get a roll of magnet wire or uninsulated wire if you don't like stripping sheath and inner insulation.
You could just cut up an extension cord and test the current a single strand can handle before blowing.
No its because when you mix metals and electricity copper will corrode. I have 2 40 ah lithium banks in my car and use aluminum bars.
your flying leads are too small for a continuous 30amp load test, a bit of redundancy(over sizing) in lead size
is always adviseable when sizing wiring for any power cables. more copper less heat.
This was very much a fun learning experience for me..
Kaption Tape was the missed ticket. Rubber tape is worthless for the vary same results you show. Battery hookup sold out the next day. LOL Still sold out. WTH ?
Sold of the nickel strip? It should be back in stock soon they said.-- Don't forget to use my coupon code ' POWERWALLS' to save 10%
I made it to 300
Spray paint for reflectivity
so messy :)
But what about 'D' Batteries? You can use less of them and be more efficient.
D ? as in D sized?
Dude, what planet are you on?
@@HBPowerwall Could be me but im hoping that's a joke.