Wirelessly charging 18650 batteries!
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- čas přidán 14. 03. 2021
- This battery issue has confused me more than helped me. Would have expected the cells that were only positive was connected to NOT be charged or have any power yet they did even tho I can't see anywhere that the negative was connected..
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Pete
#diypowerwalls #hbpowerwall #18650ed #diypowerwall
Rename the video to "Wirelessly charging 18650 batteries?" But in all seriousness, if you find out what was the cause of this I think it would be interesting to see.
FIFTY likes on this comment and you got a deal lol
@@HBPowerwall surely it's inductive if they aren't physically connected? Maybe 3D print some blanks to fill the voids
I think I need to build another battery and try to replicate it
lol.... "Free energy"
Then there'd just be a bunch of EVEN weirder people join the group! :)
Just what we need a bunch of crazies ! 😬
Yeah like others have said; replace those 3 'unconnected' cells with non-conducting supports, such as PVC pipe.
I’d be suspicious that the leaker that rusted through has made a connection to the negative of the adjacent cell.
Also, try using a lower input impedance meter or across a 10K ohm resistor, because the DMM you are using has 10Meg ohm input resistance and is high enough to give readings through the corrosion, as a path. Good luck Mate!
Yup, easiest way to check if a cell is actually connected or not is to use the continuity checker on your DMM... That's specifically what it's for.
I agree, I think the insulation has corrodes through and that zero volt cell has been shorting the pack.
I agree with this comment. That electrolyte has leaked and made a connection to the Pack. I bet the IR is very high in that rusty cell that's why your not seeing any volts. You could prove this with a low ohm meter/impedance tester. Interesting one!
I was just watching one of the prior videos about this cell he put together. During his whole sorting and placing and flipping and placing again, there was one cell that had rust on it. I wonder if it's the culprit.
At the positive you conected it to the main lead and the leaking rust from the broken cell made the connection to the adjacent cell. That is under guarantee the issue. The really best way to find such an isolation issue is an isolation tester. testing with 200V from the rusty side of the blind cell to the negative zink plate for sure is very low impedance due to all the nasty liguids. Definately 3D printed blinds had been the better choice.
@HBPowerwall A couple of suggestions improve your battery layout/setup.
#1 For "insulation cells" you should use non-conductive blanks, not dead batteries.
#2 Remove fuses from both sides and just have the fuses on the negative side
#3 Reorient your batteries so the negative sides of the batteries all face outwards because it allows you to do an extra check much faster, which would be to use your infrared camera to check all batteries at the same time.
#4 Add an insulative on both the negative and positive side of the battery, even if it's a heat resistant plastic layer. (In reality every bank should be fully enclosed and already in it's open separate container.)
#5 Insulate some metal "fins" (dividers) between each battery bank so if one bank was to set on fire the the bank next to it would be shielded from the majority of the heat/fire and makes the whole setup safer.
#6 Get some insulation around each power line that joins each bank together.
That info will be very helpful for other builders trying to learn - thank-you
For the three cells that are part of your mounting system, replace with 18mm timber dowel from your favorite timber merchant, well that’s what I do anyway.
Sounds like a good plan!
And if those dowels charge up to 4.2v????lol
What Ah capacity should the dowel be?
@@BenMitro Well, the chemistry of the dowel limits the capacity to 0.2 of FA!
@@kevinmills5293 If you impregnate with graphite?
Great to see you back, I was a bit worried you weren't ok, glad you proofed wrong! I think there is some kind of cell damage or touching negatives. Good luck in finding this one, the rust is telling something here.
Is there any leaking electrolyte that could has dried and caused a bridge to form a connection?
that would be top of my list!
@@HBPowerwall Only plausible explanation. Maybe better replace those dead cells by 3d printed inserts or such to be extra sure. But you've chosen LiFePo4 as your next gen chemistry (which I highly recommend as well), so there may not be any further development going into those 18650 packs anyhow?!
I thought the same
You're back! Glad to see u again
Hey, thanks!
@@HBPowerwall Time for an update?
Next video, have not done anything to it yet lol 😂
Interesting video as always. My guess is that the case is shorted out, but waiting to see what you find.
It actually is almost certainly charging wirelessly! The air between the battery and the bus is likely turning into the dielectric of a capacitor with the bus and the battery acting as the plates of a capacitor. The voltage isn't high enough to jump the gap and cause an arc, but there are a TON of amps available and the electrons are still attracted to the other side, even though there isn't a direct path there... And so since there isn't a high enough voltage for the electrons to arc through the air, instead the electrons all just cram together tightly in the plate trying to get as close as they can to the other plate, allowing more electrons to flow into/out of the disconnected batteries... So, this won't continuously charge the battery, as the air capacitor can only get so much charge until it becomes saturated until the polarity changes when it switches between charging and discharging. But it's enough to allow a decent enough flow into/out of the battery each charge/discharge cycle, but nowhere near enough to properly charge it, thus eventually causing the damage seen.
I hope this helps!
I agree with you on this I know I'm late to the game but this is what is happening to him. I thought the same when I seen the damage that was done to the housing of the batteries. Good joob
Electrolyte may drip and create shorts. Perhaps stacking 7 or 14p in server like closets is a safer way to go. Gravity has its pros and cons. Anyways, glad to see you back on YT. Thanks for the content. Hope your Mini has hit the road!
Good to see you again
Welcome back! Good to see you.
I see the problem, the faulty cells were from the dreaded vanon batteries 🥴🤣
But seriously dis-similar metals corrosion?
Great video, cheers
Love the humility. This stuff can sometimes be a real head scratcher.
All hear to learn - well most of us
I have the same fan issue with my Icharger X8 , those fans do not last hardly at all .. and its my favorite charging device ..
Good luck figuring out the issue ! id like to see how the pack reacts after you take out those bad cells .
Why not replace those leaking cells with wooden dowels instead so that theres no chance of them ever shorting anything
or 3D printed dummies
@@DaRockCRX or that
Some notebook batteries come with a fake battery to fill up the gap. Those could be used.
I thought nylon rod might work well on mine, mine are in action 6 months and so far I don't see any of this
thats what i thought in previous video that he could add a dummy cell there instead of using actual cell. as the load of battery is nearly 10kgs and thats the cell which was at upper side so there's huge chance that liquid came out of battery and drip downwards and created path.
Peter check the resistance of wire near the died cell mate please. Had a problem with an antenna system in the military something like that was corrosion in the wire. Long shot. Need to talk to someone just offered 80p packs, but dead think been sitting at the guys house for some years? Is it worth taking?
Love the iso tip!
Interesting Pete, I had a single 18650 laying on its side on a wood table, it leaked out some nasty brown ooze similar to what you saw on those 0v cells, it was a 0v cell in my case too
An idea for the cells that touch the mount is use a piece of round bar. AL or steel or even pvc . Something similar size.
certainly a hair puller to which I do not have an answer. As to securing the bus bars, I drill out the holes in the cell holders and use 250mm x 2.5mm cable ties. Works really well and is pretty strong.
You need to use the continuity checker (or resistance measurement) on your DMM to check for connection of the negative of those cells to the pack.
After all, that's specifically the function of a continuity test...
Agree with your conclusion that the negatives must be connected somehow. Possible ideas from watching video:
1) The charger negative sense lead was touching one of the "dodgy cells" (could only see that it was in the general area during video, not the exact connection point).
2) The wall mount is shorting the negative sides somehow (esp. relevant if sat in the mount off camera at some point.)
3) Cells were negative side down on a possibly conductive shelf during charging.
I'd suggest continuity testing between pack and cell negatives with the pack in a few orientations to see if it changes anything, as well as while sitting in the wall mount, just to eliminate unexpected mechanical deformation as a possible cause.
I'm thinking that a shard of dissimilar metal fell in behind the pack once it was installed to create a contact but it too has rusted an now is unable to be found. Could you have drilled a hole in the cabinet creating metal filings maybe?
Love your honesty, cheers
Have you considered using dummy plugs are of Delran or another nonconductive material instead of the dead batteries?
The only partial explanation is that (as a meter works) its measuring the difference between the two points, the weird part is how it got charged to begin with, which I would (maybe) attribute that to inductive behavior. I would add a insulation barrier between those battery leads, and your copper wire.
I wonder if the corrosion of the one cell has arced over to the inner cell connecting the grounds
Brilliant!
Lovely to see such a puzzle
Thank you! Cheers!
@@HBPowerwall But more importantly; did you solve the mystery?
Would connecting up one of those clear shrink wrapped battery monitors have helped the ones that beep at you?
Could the pressure of the weight exerted by the pack on those 0v cels be a cause (not the only but 1 of the causes) of the leakage?
have you tried the continuity mode of your multimeter from e.g. negative busbar to the 'disconnected' side of the batteries? that should give a clear indication. If that beeps, it's for sure a connection, right?
What if they don't need to be connected to the negative in order to charge? In order to create voltage you just need a difference in electric potential which is maybe created when the outflow of electrons from the positive pole happens (when charging)
In the olden days we used Freeze Spray. Canned Air works fine if you hold the can upside down.
I used that before the FLIR was affordable. But it was an ongoing expense.
I would hazard a guess that the meter's input impedance is so high that you're getting false readings.
Before you do anything, I would make a voltage measurement of each of the three cells, but with a 100 ohm resistor across them for a load. Then I would do a continuity test between the negative ends and the nickle strip.
Might give you some answers?
It would be interesting to confirm faulty or heating cell by measuring its internal resistance IR. I reject cells that are above 80mΩ but for concistency I measure IR only between 4.0 and 4.10 V. Usually charged IR tend to increase with cycle life, but this is very variable from cell to cell and from brands to brands. I have a really good bunch of cells that are very old and very cycled but still show good characteristics. (if I accept the capacity loss as it is and use them knowingly)
the rusty cell just shorted and this explains the voltages you measured.
After a long..... Time Sir :D
First, I have no clue, but I'm curious if voltage creep (magnetic principle similar to wireless charging)????
Very interesting
I'm just getting ready to assemble my first wall. Something new to think about.
Great video
Like smashed, subbed ages ago. That is effen weird behaviour of those cells. Maybe they have evolved to absorb energy from nearby cells, or perhaps they are collecting and storing zero point energy?
So is it possible to measure the voltage of one cell even though they are all connected in parallel? I suppose an IR test is the best way and the infrared camera? is it possible for the cells to rust on the inside too? so basically if there is a bit of surface rust time to just decommission the cell?
Serious question I am ready to buy the patriam I have the same type of set up as you do with the 18 6 50 100 P packs I am only doing 7S right now until I get more batteries and I also have the multiplus victron 3000/24 V and the 150 - 35 control charger... I just want to make sure I make the proper right purchase in the best pursuits the WM5 would be the one that I want correct with the long mobs???
bulging cell tripped the safety on the cell but was causing negative connection to the next of the pack?
Hey Pete,
Have you thought about the possibility of when the soldering of the bus bars was done that some of the liquid solder ran through the battery shrink wrapped cell and one of the positives might be making contact with the negatively charged battery shaft? This might be how the voltage is being transferred and draining the cell but possibly not enough to spark and only showing up at low capacity?
I don't think so but possible I guess.
Welcome back pete..
Thanks bud
Wonder if the rust is causing electrolysis deeper in the cell, could then be passing voltage thru the plasma in the exposed cases
I'll accept anything as subjections at this point
Hi. The mystery is how hot did your bus wire get when it was close to the 3rd cell in. The fact that you can measure your full battery voltage from the minus side of that battery to the plus buss lead says that that battery is connected to the can of the battery otherwise known as the outside of the battery. If you were to bend the bus wire towards the center of the body of the battery just enough to clear the possible contact point. It looks like you could put some barley paper underneath the areas of the blue batteries and you would not have any more problems with those three batteries. You can use some 5-minute epoxy where you did have the straps before to add a little bit of rigidity to the bus wire.
heya well that does me believe in faritales it's not connected but still it's connected ????
Creepage Current would be my guess. Even though there is no direct connection current can still leak into (and out of) the cells. Because of how close they are to the bus.
I was watching a vid about how electricity flows and creates a magnetic field and how the batteries radiate electricity
Isn't it recommended to store LI-ION batteries at some capacity because otherwise crystals form and damage the structural integrity of the battery?
Also, might high humidity have led to the cells terminals to short to the copper wire/metal sheet or the copper has "bled" some copper filaments to thin to see?
they are stored in a very hot workshop and most of the time they are charged to 3.7v infact i checked them last weekend and they are all between 3.6-.3.7v and I havn't touched them since this video..
How is this pack balanced? Even if all the cells are from the same batch, there will be slight differences in capacity. 6 months is easily enough time to lead to a significant imbalance between cell groups if the balance current is too low.
The battery hasn't been commissioned - its been sitting idol
I think you should just rebuild the whole battery pack that way you can test each cell separately and make sure it's fixed correctly. Please make more videos long time no see!
Nice LTT T-Shirt :)
Maybe the mystery cell's insulation is not good anymore and it is touching something somewhere so that measuring its one side against the busbar shows a voltage because the other side of the cell is actually touching the busbar on the opposite side somehow.
The rusted battery has a short and has enough corrosion to allow inductive current throughput. Before you took off the strips, it allowed all three to charge, and it could only hold a partial because of the damaged lower. You took off the strips, the rusted cell never held a charge in the lower, it simply allowed pass-through current. It's nothing more than a blank rod at the hole. Especially with the open end you punched through it, it is a wound coil of material inside of it that is an actually a pretty good inductor. So, all said and done, they are all inductors to a degree, you have a massive twisted copper loop on top of all of them as opposed to a typical flat stack. It is basic induction.
All you need to do to test this, is line up 6 batteries separated by a battery width between them, and connect them accordingly. Then take that same twisted copper wire, run a normal loop of it over the top, but do not connect it to any but the last one to complete the circuit. Do a full charge and see what happens.
*Make sure the wire is extremely close like it was to those three*. The induction should work without issue. That's why it worked. Just look at your camera's heat map. The wire is radiating heat. That's not all heat. There's a buttload of electrons flying off that thing :)
Later!
I would add a data acquisition module to test the batteries, that way it is measuring the voltage in real time and if there is a problem it will notify you. Also a smart smoke detector as well. After all if you don't schedule the maintenance properly, the battery pack will schedule it for you.
That has been sitting in a box for the past 12 months. Lost passion for the project once the laws changed.
For your IR camera, putting vinyl tape or spray paint or candle soot on the nickel will give you an accurate reading.
Yeh that really helps but madness to do to all of my batteries, I do it with electronic repairs
All batteries have internal resistance which should be matched for parallel sets like yours. I suspect the brand has enough difference to case those batteries to form small current flows between the parallel circuits. I suspect the age degradation may also influence the problem over time. The only method i know is to measure on a single cell the current flow of a known resistor to calculate the internal resistance. We had meters to check cell resistance for srries battery as PM quarterly check.
When searching for heaters using an IR camera, we check on the NEGATIVE side of the cells. That’s where most of the heat will go.
Hi, Is there a way to add a schedule feature so that we can select when the batteries turn on, when they charge, etc.? I would like my 18650 setup to turn on between 4pm and 9pm (peak power usage) but then turn off and not charge until the sun is up and is able to charge the batteries from solar. My inverter does not have the ability to schedule. Is this function only available in certain inverters? Is there any other way around it? It makes no sense to allow the inverter to charge the batteries whenever the battery gets low because if the sun isn't up, I'm basically paying to charge the batteries (defeats the purpose of a powerwall).
I think DIYTECH & Repairs has done something like this with a Pi & grafana - all above my head tho..
those tabs on the " zero cells " you had spot welded and you cut off , it sounds like they were allowing those batteries to ground to the frame and pulling down your charge. go back and check the powder coat area on the mount to see if a bad spot it sounds like the blistering in the shrink wrap you could see and the spot welded like you were pushing a surface charge through the material to earth via the mount system. i work for a company and we used exclusively powder coat on enclosure and had to be careful because not all powder coats are electrically neutral they will flow a surface charge of electrical current . also check the physical surface of the powder coat to see it it allows microamp reading some powder coast will allow emi/rfi conductive grounding
Excellent video - thank you! Yea, its the weird events that make life so interesting - you can pull you're hair out and then when you eventually figure it out you go - wow :)
you have the live attached giving one connection the casing of these cells is neg and you have the unit which is sitting in a metal bracket contacting the neg of the attached cells to the unattached cells, they are insulated but it is very thin insulation and the entire unit is extremely heavy.
but it wasn't touching the metal housing at the time of testing? BUT i like your thinking, might do an earth test
Somehow when it leaked the battery that is magically connected but isn't maybe the electrolytes that have leaked out have made a trail of liquid to make a connection possibly because liquid can carry current
nice LTT shirt ^^
Considering that this pack got the same power x current the Energy must have disappeared in chemical reactions or and heat.
We also do not know what cells else could suffer from leakage cause the Kathode and Anode at covered.
Mystery hunt is pretty demanding but I guess that replacing the 3 batteries with pieces of a broomstick of 18 mm Diameter cause those are strong and you can screw screw into those Sticks to fix the terminals even better.
On the reflection off of shiny things changing the image of your thermal camera, why not rig up a switch to shut off one light left on, and then stand front of the battery pack that you want to observe, switch off the light, and observe the battery pack in the dark?
Perhaps when you pull the cells you will find a split in the plastic covering so that the negative body of the cell is shorting on something ?
I'm hoping it is something as simple as that..
Liquid spills can make invisible shorts. I had a PCB with a 30 ohm short to GND, and only after washing the PCB with soap did it clear. FeedbackLoop just put out a vid yesterday with the same thing.
I would 3D print a dummy 18560 with a screw boss on the end to replace the others.
czcams.com/video/385Vt0iOwXA/video.html
U can test it by using multimeter in continuity mode
battery has tightly coiled foil....so why not inductive charging
i would put some sort of padding between the bracket and batteries...should help
6000cell 24volt how to charge discharge solar inverter & how to install bms
I know this is a little late.. I put the part 1 into slow mo and noticed the blue battery is contacting the bus bar when weight is applied... bsically it pushing hte battery to contact.
I personally wouldnt use a battery there if it is for support.I would make a rail to slide the battery pack onto to evenly distrobute the weight accross the bottom of the vertical pack
considering this was 10 months ago.. probally to late and I am stil late to the pary ;)
battery leakage has created a link to the other terminals. I bet if you removed the cells you might see more leakage. Cant you put blank plastic rods in place where the holders touch?
An RF engineer once told me the acronym: pfm.
Pure friggin' magic.
Just use the appropriate F where applicable.
F yeh!
Your support bar was barely touching the positive and ground or the fluid that leaked fro the battery is causing a short or maybe the ink on the heat shrinks causing it similar to if you draw a line on a car battery it will short it out
that is the most likely cause I'm thinking..
I put plastic caps on my zero volt support cells but now I'm thinking about using nylon rod in replacement
I think that is a good idea
Why didn't you use plastic pipe instead of dead cells?
Why not give a black paint from chap spray can over the nickel connections to see with the thermal camera or a cheap IR temp meter, Is it stupid?
Your construction has fuses, which help you to find out damaged cell.
I think, you should measure the voltage drops on each fuses (without any external currents, charging or discharging).
The cell with maximum voltage drop on fuse is a damaged cell.
Need a very accurate multimeter and a jig to hold the electrodes to the battery consistently.
Leaking Electrolyte can still conduct "voltage", just not much current. That rusted/corroded cell is a Self-discharger, bringing the whole pack down. Apparently it leaked electrolyte at some point making contact with the negative side of the pack.
It would be like take a very small resistor and connecting it to the bus rails. Not enough to generate heat, but enough that given time will have detrimental effects.
I had the same problem with some aviation lead acid cells where I was getting weird voltages. They had leaked electrolyte and was throwing off my readings. Cleaned up the cells and didn't have an issue
What you could do Pete, is to douse that end of the pack in alcohol. Get as much of the electrolyte cleaned off as possible. This will at least test the theory of electrolyte leakage making conduction. Would hurt to take some baking powder and put on it too. Baking soda neutralizes the acid making it inert, no longer conducting.
Batt wrong around?
Please run a contunity check. I would expect a connection to be found. May take some jigging to find it. The test position is different to mounted position.
I'll do that for sure. I'll take all the feed back here & make it into the next video about it...
you need to use kapton tape once your battery is assembled. It provides electrical isolation and withstands high temperatures. You will have fans at the base so heat due to being enclosed in tape should not be an issue. your bms (having temperature sensors between each black block) should also ring an alarm if batteries become overheated.
Kapton tape is a layer of safety as well as another layer to safety... i need easy access to cells to maintain and visually inspect. I believe my approach is the lesser of the two evils.
Arcing, potentially. X6 should be off top of battery, may be a tad cooler.
I'd expect to see little burn marks?
Maybe the problem is from when you soldered… maybe solder got down in between the dummy cells and the live cells and fixed them. Just a thought.
it's possible, it hasn't happened again so for that I'm grateful
Try using an analog meter...if you have one.
Should have tested continuity and I bet that you find a connection (might have I high resistance) between the cell on the negative side and when you linked the the positive on the bus you now have a discharge circuit.
I'm going to say that there is some electrolyte making a teeny tiny little short somewhere... Pull the cells either way, but man that is a headscratcher. You could 3D print some blank cells if you don't want to use real batteries. Faster than finding a wooden stick that fits. XD
Agreed. Leaking electrolyte can still conduct voltage and extremely low current. Cumulative over time can be detrimental.
Do you know what the reason was? Conductive leakage?
I assume that was the cause, how over the comment section has provided many different ideas as to what happened
at 8:44 that is a XT60 plug, not Anderson. I use them DAILY on my RC car batteries. they are good to 60 amps current.
Thanks for the info
Best guess is that the fluid from the leaking cell has created a channel for electrons to flow through
Yep, some how that has happened for sure..
What's the point of using these 0 V cells? Why not complete the pack with usable cells?
All the weight of the battery pack onto just a few cells - it was planned as a safety 'feature' well... you know how most plans go!
How about dropping some 18mm x 65mm wooden/plastic dowels in those holes in future packs, just to avoid leaking
future... there ain't no future lol, I don't have the desire to ever do this twice lol
Cut the buss bar in half and see if it discharges asymmetrically?
if i had spares I would do this!!!
The only possible way is a leak on the chassis, but I don't think. the positive should match voltage too
Odd for sure.. leaking is the only possibility i think
3rd purple cell from above has a connection to negative on the casing. That one is eating the power.
would seem so
@@HBPowerwall I seen a couple of your videos on your big batteries, I wouldn't agree with all your practices but really like your project in itself especially recycling the cells. More in the spirit of free energy. I studied the recycling part of this technology also a bit and estimate it's worse than using lead acid batteries. I think placing this instalation in a "special building" on your property is an excelent choice in my opinion. And bees ..yes they are great. Sowed in rubber bands in the bottom of your beesuit can help a lot to keep em out. Rearing queens from pedigree queens can also help a lot to keep the hobby fun especially with buckfast bees. My expierience is you should not go further than F2's. Grafting larvae and feeding them in queenless hives is a great skill to have.
I just did Peter, knocking the cells out will confuse you more honestly.
Must be done!
It is because of the rust on negative side and also rust contain some water vapor and vapor conduct electricity
Sounds likely
I would replace the filler cells with anything insulative that's not a battery.