Catholic Interim Mass (1965-1967) versus populum
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- čas přidán 28. 11. 2016
- This video footage contains the Mass (15th Sunday after Pentecost) after 1962, when the VAII already started. This was still said in Latin, and it's pretty much the TLM but faced towards the people. (!)
Roman Catholic Parish Church (Basilica nowadays) of St. Francis (Sunday 30th August 1964)
Bolsward - Friesland - Netherlands
Interim Mis, Rozenkrans, Latijnse mis - Komedie
If this is the intended N.O. mass, I think most people would take this over what we ended up getting... it's not at all terrible, it's utterly reverent compared to what most parishes offer these days...
Why wasn’t this left as the permanent form? Even with the vernacular it would be be better than the “priest as entertainer” form that we suffer through in most American parishes
Msgr. Klaus Gamber argued quite convincingly it was originally intended to be the Mass of Vatican II.
This is horrible.
It’s irreverent that the priest had their back turned to the altar the entire time. I noticed the tabernacle is behind them, and they had their back turned to Jesus the whole time. Sad.
@@psychedelicpythonversus populum was an abuse done in earlier prior missals too. There are pictures of masses in 1948 and 1952 done facing the people. Even in 62 abuses continued only after 1970 they took off all over the world. After knowing this we can give props to the trads for restoring the sacred in the 62 missal today. Because at that time it would have looked pretty bad
Blaming and complaining gets us nowhere. We must fix what we destroyed. It took years to destroy. it will take many years to rebuild. Now, lets get going!
How?
@@severianmonk7394 Pray everyday by going to adoration as often as you can with a side of penance and fasting.
the first step is to get rid of v2 or at the very least revoke / clarify confusing documents that need clarity.
The only way to fix it is to go back to what was never broken.
The Traditional Latin Mass.
@@Oldparson220 at some point the church will realize that vatican 2 did more harm than good. at that point it will return. until then the destruction continues.
Begining of the end
Slawek Soja indeed, screw the Second Vatican Council
Slawek Soja Beginning of the end started with Pius XII changes from 1951-1958.
I hate to admit it. Was it Pius XII who censored Maximilian Kolbe's prayer to Virgin Mary?
Slawek Soja I have no idea but thankfully our chapel obeys the pre-1950 traditions.
You are very fortunate. We have our Mass according to 1962 Missale, still better than NOM. I would love to listen to pre 1950 Mass. Where is that lucky chapel of yours?
"versus populum" always made everything worse.
Indeed
"But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer's body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See." Mediator Dei, 62, Pius xii
Imagine being on a bus, you sit down and all facing forward, if the bus driver would turn around and face you sitting, what would happen?? a Reck would happen, so it has been since 1970 with the novus ordo ,mass. a bus reck.
I never seen like that before but there is so much truth in this comment.
The Pope has always celebrated Mass facing the nave at St Peter's Basilica.
nice example.
@Janette Davis that's why catholic worship should be doing the same as a successor of Jewish Temple practice.
@@VideoMask93Maybe true since the ‘new’ Basilica from the 1500’s, but he was actually not looking at the people. The view is obstructed.
Bring back Traditional Rite of all Sacraments!
This is strange because it's a prelate saying the Mass, but he has no pontificals. And It's humorous when he gives the blessing that the deacon and subdeacon behind him don't get the blessing because he has his back to them. It's as if the other clerics don't exist or aren't important. It just shows an absurd focus on engaging the "audience" and making the Mass a "show" or "performance".
We think he was an abbot.
Like “Mr Saturday Night “ 😂😢
@@TradOrganist Abbott and Costello?
very interesting footage !! Thanks!
Thanks to Pope Benedict who brought back the Tridentine Mass . . I prefer the old Mass using the míssel of 1962 .
No, it is thanks to Archbishop Lefèbvre
Facts lol
@@TradOrganist hahahahaha
The same guy that excommunicated Archbishop Lefebvre and was one of the leading modernista such as De Lubac and other heretics
Not once has the mass been treated like some science experiment where you could gather a bunch of priests and bishops(along with several Protestants) and formulate some optimal way of doing the liturgy. Change was natural, slow, and not imposed top down. You cannot call what happened in Vii a natural development. Changes such as the minor one in this video were trivial at best. There was a push for a revolution that was cloaked from many of those at the council. Many changes were even made to seem like a return to older traditions.
This is not true. The bishops forced the parish priests to. Who forced the bishops, one wonders?
Many priests here refused to change and you can imagine faithful people not wanting change either. The priest who didn’t want to change the language or altar were transferred immediately and sent to the seminary for a obligatory “training”.
After this training a part complied and a significant amount of priests left the because they simply could not support the change. Same with a lot of faithful who didn’t recognise the Catholic faith and the Mass anymore and left the church.
This is all documented by former Ecclesia Dei head in my country.
This was forced down for sure. By the Second Vatican Council and God knows, by satan.
@@TradOrganist that was actually my point, sorry for the funny wording. I meant to say the changes done were top-down enforcement of the revolutionary few in the Church. Similar to the english reformation. Though even the Church of England went down with more of a fight than what happened in the latter half of the 20th century for Catholics.
The way actual reform took place in the Church was normally slow, gradual, and natural. Similar to Trent. Much of it was also legitimate reform in the truest sense of the word. What the fathers of the second Vatican council did was false reformation. What they did was equate archaism to reformation. Pope Paul XII explicitly warned against this mindset. Revolutionaries in the Church were falsely claiming their proposed changes were simply a returns to even older traditions. Everything from communion in the hand, reversing the alter, to the acceptance of vernacular were pushed under this guise. Even though much of these things were either falsely claimed, misdirected, or a rare exception in specific areas, these men took these things and falsely labeled them as traditional and enforced them onto the faithful.
@@bigman7856 An old lady told me that in the sixties the priest said in his sermon that God can also be found in the woods and on the sea shore.
That it isn’t necessary to attend Mass weekly “anymore” and that we should take our families to day trips in stead of Mass.
And people wonder why catholics don’t go to Mass anymore...
religion is for the savages
to be fair, this is much better than what we have today
still unacceptable and much worse than TLM
… its still a hot mess.
Still horrible
The Dutch were responsible for communion in the hand and the Dutch Catechism
Underming the one true faith for centuries. Chastisement is coming for the wooden shoe people.
I think its German in the video, but I might be wrong. The vocabulary is very similar and the talking is to fast for me to pick it all up.
@@wes6363 it's not german. it's dutch
@@johnp556 Although it is true my countrymen are responsible for these atrocities, you should not tar all Dutch with the same brush. We had some awful bishops in the 60s and even worse priests and laity. But there are those who resisted. Our current Archbishop Eijk is very brave and trying to undo all the damage.
@@Bas508 God bless you
If you dare to celebrate Mass like that today, Cardinal Dolan would excommunicate you right away...
This is how the dream of wicked Luther came true...
Was he bipolar?
It was horrible. But that is perhaps knowing what was to come, and knowing the highly offensive nature of replacing the altar with a table and saying mass facing the people.
David Bouffard - it would make sense if you have no resources like the early Christians to use a table Or if you use a home altar (not for mass of course) but reverting from Intricate Altars specifically crafted to give honor to our lord to a table is absolutely insulting
Thank you so much for sharing this, as this may be the only video anywhere of the "Vatican II Mass" and it's extremely useful for those interested in it.
Robert F. Kennedy's Requiem Mass would've used the same missal, though it was in 1968. There are some videos showing parts of it. There's also a scene of a Mass in the Elvis Presley movie "Change of Habit", which came out in 1969.
The choir in the choir loft offers no visual distraction to the 'populum', either. Dutch readers can contrast the experiences elsewhere of the Rev. Dr. Antoine Bodar as noted in his book, Klokkenluider van St. Jan (2004) (a title which plays with the Dutch title of Victor Hugo's novel, usually called The Hunchback of Notre Dame, and the Dutch ' bellringer' word corresponding to English ' whistleblower).
This is heartbreaking...I pray that Russia will be Consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Our Blessed Mother Mary (exactly as requested by Our Blessed Mother Mary) ASAP! Pax vobiscum.
Maybe in some countries the altar was in the front at this time, but I do not recall it coming in until much later (late 60's, early 70's) where I come from. Not sure about the date of this Mass. It was very beautiful anyway. The choirs back then were so lovely.
What a shock the people must have felt! Having attended the TLM for only five years now, I now have a visceral reaction to versus populum celebration, no matter how reverent.
Then that's a problem.
Not only is this versus populum, but it's mass said on a table not an altar! An altar must be solid stone!
These sacrileges started way before 1962...I have seen photos of modernist catholic churches with table "altars" with the pews in a circle around in the 1940s. In the 1950s masses were being said in many places in America in versus populum.
We need to protest this by only attending latin masses.
They should have instantly been able to tell that the Priest is facing the "WRONG WAY".
Looking at the Church in Bolsward on a map, the altar is in the west, so this is in fact celebrated ad orientem. However, the 'table altar' is placed in front of an altar built to celebrate toward a notional 'liturgical east' ad absidem.
If this is what the Novus Ordo is I would gladly take this over what we commonly get today
Men who have come to such a misunderstanding of the importance of sacredness and sacred symbolism by turning their backs on millennia of tradition, bear a heavy responsibility in the loss of spiritual landmarks. And this happened when the modern world urgently needed its sacred rites to be revived and not abandoned. And this revival should have been the role of the church., If we stick to the symbolism, a rite thus turned around becomes evil.
The worm was already in the fruit ... and for a very long time.
The rubrics of the Mass of Ages can be said versus populum, that was always possible, but it was still the beginning of the end, certainly for Catholicism in the Low Countries. There has to be a certainly end of days situation there when Wim Cardinal Eijk gives a church to the SSPX (St. Willibrord) and with the envisaged closure of a vast number of parishes. The New Mass, as with others things in the wake of V2, has proven to be a disaster, destroying patterns of devotion, eliminating vocations. If at least the transitional missal so called, had become the end point, something matching what Sacrosanctum Concilium envisaged, it would not have been so bad, but here we are in a society where Christianity is almost now something of the past, excepting a small Remnant, selected of Grace.
Is there a complete video of this mass or of this documentary?
Thanks!
even lutheran in germany use the Ad Orientem, the Roman Catholic must back to His glory, use the TLM
Even some Anglicans do
Little did they know what huge catastrophic mess they've made
I believe the so-called "new Catholics" knew exactly what they were doing. The fact that less than 5% of pupils of Catholic schools practice their faith upon leaving says a great deal.
It's not only about the Mass, it is about the Doctrinal changes and the Modernist Revolution. One cannot be saved without the Catholic Faith.
Yup, if you see Paul VI celebrating mass anywhere from Vatican II to 1969, it's going to be versus populum.
Where's the bell footage from? It doesn't look like St Francis!! Wonder if they still do it by hand
L'inizio del declino 😔
Does anyone know where the comment with "Chastisement is coming for the wooden shoe people." Is?
It's a few comments above yours, as a reply to a guy saying the Dutch are bad
@@carolingian5736 Thanks mate.
The family praying the Rosary at the end, how on earth did they meditate on the mysteries? It was like a race!
Seemed fine to me, but I have a "scene" for each bead.
I saw a low mass in a Benedictine monastery that had kept a lot of Latin celebrated in 10 minutes for the lay brothers. Not kidding. You have to ask at that point is is better to have daily mass or to celebrate it decently more rarely?
you can still meditate even if it's said fast.
@@liberator275 I admire those who can, I certainly couldn't!
Meditation in praying doesn't mean "do it slowest as you can".
Personally, I get distracted of my meditation if I pray slow.
Assim começou o modernismo na missa. Porque versus populum? Qual sentido,qual motivo?
Main differences would be the shortening of the prayers at the foot, the allowance of parts of the Ordinary in English, and the suppression of the Last Gospel. And, of course, the direction the priest faces, but that wasn’t prescribed by the Missal.
VideoMask93- I would say that allowing on certain occasions the OLD mass in Vernacular may be permissible, because according to the council of Trent, you are Anathema if you say that ALL masses should be In the Vulgar tongue, but changing the entire mass like Paul VI did is disgraceful And heretical
Beautiful.
This is novus ordo 🤢
If people want an ad populum mass, this is what it should look like
In my parish, our pastor didn't change anything up until the very last day before the "new mass" replaced the REAL MASS. The priests did not face the people and Latin was the only liturgical language. Even after the "new mass" replaced the ancient and true Mass, he remained as faithful as possible to the traditional rubrics. There were no altar girls or communion in the hand and everyone knelt for communion. He said some parts of the missal even in a low voice, including the "eucharistic prayer". I remember even receiving absolution from him at confession in Latin even after all the changes had taken place. He was a good man and I feel sorry for the priests who had to comply with the errors of the Vatican II Church, while the laity were in the process of being deceived. Today, you can hardly find a "priest" who even follows the current Roman Missal of the Novus Ordo "mass". Even more shocking is that many "Catholics" have very little or NO knowledge of what they believe and what they are doing at their "mass". I am so glad that I am NO LONGER a member of this false Church!
it must be cured from within, not left
Imagine being an apostate. This is not good for your soul.
The beginning of a timeline of a blessing mass❤
What Sanctus is this?? It’s beautiful
I'm not sure, but it could be something by Perosi.
Minus the Versus Populum, I bet the ordinary form of the Roman Rite eventually looks similar to this again. The "interim" Missal as it is sometimes referred, more closely follows the liturgical changes that the Second Vatican Council actually called for in the documents of the council. This is what Pope Benedict XVI meant by "mutual enrichment" I believe.
It will probably look similar to the anglican ordinariate mass. In the vernacular but with all the traditions of the tridentine rite. At least, that's the best case scenario.
A lot of people say this is when the problems started. This is was the apex of the problems and when they were really "let loose" so to speak..although one might say the Holy Father Francis is making a new "apex." But the problems really started during the so called "enlightenment." Really, the protestant revolt, or some of the humanist thinking of the Renaissance..the Golden Age of Faith was the Middle Ages. Sure there were problems, and nothing will be perfect until one hopefully experiences the Beatific Vision..we all are infected with original sin, but name me another time in history when Christianity was so pervasive so as to penetrate all sectors of society..and this was true Christianity at that i.e. Catholicism.
Yup the purest form of christianity was found in ancient times and during the middle ages,sure there was a lot of corruption thanks to the sinfull nature of man. But let us not forget it,s modern man who is responsible for the holocaust and the holomodor.
Were the prayers the same? Especially the prayers of consecration?
Yes.
This is pretty much accurate to how the Novus Ordo was intended, not Bad Irreverent masses with modernist Protestant music.
The liturgical reform should have ended with this
Yes
Actually, it should’ve ended with translations of certain propers and scriptures. Mandatory quiet Canon in Latin.
And when were the bongo drums and dancing nuns introduced into the mass?
From what little can be see of the 'ars celebrandem' the difficult task of celebrating 'ad orientem versus populum' without distracting the 'populum' seems well achieved.
Oops - ' celebrandi'! (somehow got carried away with accusatives....)
If the new mass was actually celebrated like this I wouldn’t have a problem with the chant and everything. But this is not at all what we have
Imagine: in 1965, Holland was ordaining 800 priests a year and sending them to the missions. Now the Dutch have one or two men each year ordained for Holland. Hurray, Vatican II!!
Around 1950 about 50 % off the population in Belgium attended sunday mass, today it,s like 6 or 7%, not too mention the decline off baptism, church weddings and even the decline of church burials.
@@novusrex9809 maybe Belgium in 1950 have 70% attending the Catholic and protestant service
@@FranzValer Protestantism is extremly rare in Belgium and it,s mostly practised by african migrants.
@@novusrex9809 thanks I confused with the Kingdom of Netherlands
A table in front of an actual altar? That’s one of the things I don’t get, after going to the TLM now, amongst a whole number of other things. Why though? It’s weird to me now
Very weird but please appreciate that this is an actual mass
And the congegration even wear proper clothing
By doing this they are centering it towards man, instead of God. Why would they do that?
@@rr884136 versus Porpulum maybe weird
But at least it's better than trash songs
The celebrant is a bishop. Therefore this ‘Solemn High Mass’ is completely contrary to the Tridentine rubrics, and was specifically reprobated by the Congregation of Rites in the late 19th century in response to a ‘dubium’ submitted by the Bishop if Erie, PA. There are three and three only ways a bishop can celebrate in the traditional Roman Rite: the Pontifical Low Mass, the Pontifical Mass at the Throne, and the Pontifical Mass at the Faldstool. So indeed, we have here ‘initium finis’.
Not a bishop, an abbot
@@TradOrganist Do you have Fortescue at hand? If so check on abbots. Offhand I don’t remember. But the bishop issue was a big problem right after ‘Ecclesia Dei’. I think they were now at the point of conforming to the rubrics when the boom fell this year.
@@TradOrganist The rubrics are the same for an abbot, who only has these faculties in the abbey he governs.
Why is that family all facing different directions when praying the Rosary?
Marco D To use their chairs as a support while kneeling is my guess.
Makes sense.
It looks like a bloody small room to me.
@Shane McCabe lol
@@domburton Yeah.
I am surprised it even preserve some of the elements of the tredetine mass
The beginning of the end!
Gloria a Dio
Boiling the frog in not so boiling water
No wonder things are so screwed up.
If you visit italy in every town or village you can participate at a mass like this
No thanks. How did the Italians ever fall for this BS of Bugnini and Paolo?
Nee hoor, I went to Papal Basilica of St Mary Major recently where a solemn Vespers had sadly turned into a full charismatic frenzy of Eucharistic adoration, hand clapping, waving, guitar from the sound system and all.
I'd rather go to Santissima Trinita dei Pellegrini churh in Rome. The church there celebrates Traditional Latin mass regularly
If I'm not mistaken it's pretty hard to find a tridentine mass in Italy, unless you are in Rome
IMBC in Italy celebrates the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass exclusively.
It was a disaster!! Not one priest got it right because there was no time to learn it. Most parishes continued the Tridentine Rite and it confused every Catholic I've ever learned. My paternal grandfather never stepped foot into a R. C. Church again and the only reason he (died 1981) & my grandmother who died in 1997 had Solemn Requiem Masses from Pivs XII's time, Pre-1962 Mass was for 2 reasons, one was that they donated $7.5 million dollars to the Diocesan Hospital to build a wing named after my family & two was because my mother's father (A nephew of Pivs XII) called the Vatican 😅and spoke to the Secretary of State and the Pope himself. The following year my mom's parents died 😅and they were accorded the honor of the old Requiem Mass as well. We only go to the old Mass ourselves. The Novvs Ordae isn't our cup of tea.
Dr. G.
Novus ordo?
No tridentine mass "versus popolo" riform of Giovanni XXIII
This is a whole lot better than what we have going on today
Yeah, let’s just stick with the old mass :)
the minute they abandoned the high altars, they apostasized
now the altar becomes "supper table", they basically protestantize the Catholic Church.
Kyrieelison
Onde está o catolicismo na Holanda hoje? Acabou-se
El principio del fin.
Absolutely not. What a mess this was, even back then and rolled down hill from there. Christ help us!
Essa era a missa que o Varicano 2 quis. Não a atual.
Where did you get this footage from?
Cole DeSantis Does it really matter?
TradOrganist I'm just interested from an historical perspective. I'm actually a videographer, and am considering using this footage. I may need to cite the source, plus copyright issues. Further, I would need to authenticate it. Not that I don't believe that it isn't legit. It seems like It is. But, you know how it is.
What a touchy answer to a simple question!
"But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer's body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See." Mediator Dei, 62, Pius xii
Oh. So this is a "reverent novus ordo" said according to v2.
Never seen it.
this is a bit of a novelty - was this supposed to be Vatican 2 mass? it not that bad, there's still reverence, Latin, and focus on prayer. one wonders what has really happened?
Vatican II when done “traditionally” actually only has the bible readings and resposeral psalm in the vernacular. Everything else can be in latin. The other issue is the removal of some prayers, but you can add them back in if you want. People dont want to hear it but the bigger problem is the attitude of priests not the council.
Also Novus ordo Ad orientium is also completely allowed.
@@King-uj1lh The council is what allowed the destruction on a massive scale. It's like saying legalizing lgbt unions isn't the problem, its the lgbt people that are. No, the legalization of it made it much more common and prevalant. What is allowed is what will be done.
@@mathieuconklin3146 if you want to say its far to permissive i agree, but at the same time most novus ordos don’t even follow V2 at all and the Vatican has done next to nothing.
I think it should be noted that versus populum isn't a modern thing (liturgy of St James used in eastern churches is always done versus populum) but the way it's put in this manner is a modern interjection
The liturgy of Saint James was not done towards the people. However the practice began to change in the 1960s. This lead for example there to divisions in India over this precise point.
This is supposedly Roman Catholic? I don't see much Roman ritual in it. The Latin is ofc, but, what else is. This just seems like a Protestant version of the Mass and I don't like it.
@Catholic Verity I didn't say it was evil tho... I know that many times, the Mass has been said Versus Populum, but it makes more sense that the conversation is between the priest and God. Versus Populum doesn't seem to be that way.
@Catholic Verity I don't think it is the worse thing ever, I just see it as similar to when I was a Protestant. I ran away from Protestantism because of how diabolical it was.
They turned their backs to God.
Primeira genoflexão após a consagração foi abolida,o latim nem se fala
happy anniversary of the summorum pontificum
Anytime else come here after Pope Francis bombshell Motu Propio?
Protestant Hersey. Now, their churches are empty and they have no faith.
Archbishop Lefebvre pray for us!
versus populum means that mankind replaces god
versus pupulum: the beginning of the death of the true Mass
St Marcel Lefebvre, Guardian of the Faith, ora pro nobis.
Liturgiczni rewolucjoniści!!!
Man kann den Holländern keinen Vorwurf machen, sie sind sehr liebevolle Menschen und wollten nichts Bösen, aber gut gemeint ist das Gegenteil von gut gemacht!
How could the priests agree and accept to show the back to the Lord in the Tabernacle? It is an offence to God!
There's a reason he bows and kisses the Altar before turning around! To reverence Our Lord!
:(
Quo prima si inginocchia durante Elevazione davanti Gesù e lingua latina parla
Versus populum is not historically accurate
NEDERLAND CALL YOUR GOD AGAIN
Uck....
Novus ordo ((((( bad (((
Ave María Purísima sin pecado concebida,
Para empezar en esos años en la Santa Iglesia CATOLICA no se usaban esas vestimentas que los PROTESTANTES usaban.
OJO no se dejen engañar.
Eso no es CATOLICO.
Before we judge them too harshly, a bit of historical context should be added: in the 1950s, the majority of liturgical scholars were sayinc (incorrectly) that versus populum was how the liturgy was done in the early Church. This is also exacerbated by the fact that, while the Tridentine missal has a lot rubrics telling the priest what to do and the set up of the altar, the Roman Missal never said what direction the altar needed to be facing. It only said that the celebrant had to face the altar except for certain points in the mass. This was sort of ripe breeding grounds for the versus populum movement.
In hindsight, this was a mistake, but the people at the time didnt really know that. I think it's just important to remember that we shouldnt always assume malice when confronted with something that yielded bad effects later down the line
The start of the great sacrilege
I dislike Annibale Bugnini
🤢
e' stato l'inizio della fine....