Is the Novus Ordo Even VALID?
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- čas přidán 15. 09. 2020
- Many over the years have criticized the structure and implementation of the Novus Ordo for what they believe to be an inferior rite than that of Pius V's 1570 Roman Missal. But might the problem be even deeper? Some suggest that Vatican II broke Church law in reforming the Rite, making anything it did invalid. What do we make of this?
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This will be a fun comment section.
It's silly to be divided in our own house. I'm just grateful to be able to attend Mass
@@aslinndhan then you are lukewarm and foolish. Vactian ll is very clearly pegan
He's rung the sedevacantist dinner bell.
Aslinn McIntyre : You’re on point. Non Nisi Te Domine, as the Angelic Doctor was known to have said.
@@Massolgy Would you make a case for this. Otherwise your statement mostly sounds like an anti-catholic polemic from our Protestant brothers.
Grew up Mormon, got into catholicism after prison and it seemed ok but seeing everything in the church didn't feel right. Finally attended a Latin Mass and its changed my life for the best
Welcome Home and God Bless you.
👏👏👏
The curia devise and decide the liturgy.
It's about Christ, not you or me.
@@wolfthequarrelsome504 it's about how we experience Christ too. The young generations see through the shallowness of the bizarre new rite, as many of us have done in the last 50 years. It's ok for boomers, that's fine, but the young people seek spirituality and seek Jesus, and that is found in spades in the old rite, and particularly pre 1955. The sixties reactionaries - a better representation than Progressives - need to understand that sometimes it's best to go back and rediscover why the old rite works so well, and rediscovered, it offers the main way of attaining the worthy.goals of Vatican 2, in actively engaging with society and youth . Stop trying to cancel everything and you will see a blossoming.
What you felt was the complete unfaithfulness of some of the Novus Ordo priests. They are not all like that. Watch the Novus Ordo mass on youtube from St. Marys Catholic church in Greenville, South Carolina. The problem is NOT the form of the mass. Both forms are fine. It's that some of the priests in the Church do NOT believe the faith. They believe in homosexuality as the main thing, not Christ. You just have to find a good priest.
"How's your marriage?"
"Its not invalid!"
That's exactly how I hear the response to the Novus Ordo. "It's valid..." 🤷🏾♂️
"How's your marriage?"
"Bound by God."
"How's the Novus Ordo?"
"Bound by God."
Exactly. Why couldn't both forms be allowed and let people decide which Mass they like the most? I admit not knowing the Latin mass. I would have to take a plane and go to another country. But the NO mass (I have 50 years of experience in it) leaves me completely cold. Dull, irreverent, without sense of the sacred and changed by the whims of the priest. I go because of obligation. Somebody decided to ban the Mass of the Ages before I was born and forced me to go to this new Mass designed in a trattoria in Rome.
@@derechoplano it was actually created by a liturgical committee.
@@derechoplano because Satan doesn't want the TLM. Just imagine there are two restaurants both are serving for free, the NO is an ordinary fast food restaurant and the TLM is a 5 star restaurant. If both are for free definitely people will choose the TLM. But Satan does not want the TLM. He has to do what Cain did to Abel. Satan's followers those that created and promoted NO have been trying to kill the TLM. Unfortunately in your country they have killed it. In our island, I am thankful for our SSPX missionary priests who continue to come here to offer the TLM. Our Lady will not abandon those that are under her care those that continue to pray the Holy Rosary daily.
Novus Ordo is indeed valid, but I will always choose the Latin Mass hands down over Novus Ordo.
At 57 years of age, I have never attended a Latin Mass because my bishops have always been obedient to Vatican II. Also in some ways Novus ordo addresses the needs of time. I think it was all according to the Mercy of Jesus who mainly wants us to worship in truth and spirit more than in ritual and feeling.
@@josephcasley7979 Yes. But I guess you cannot say that to the overwhelming reduction of Catholics attending Mass over the decades. The numbers are there already for people to see: Catholics don't believe in the Eucharist, Catholics believing all sorts of nonsense and not of authentic Catholic teachings, Catholics using contraception and even voting for rabid abortion supporting politicians, who are also Catholics......and the lists goes on and on and on........
As the famous Jewish pundit, Ben Shapiro famously says "Facts does not care about your feelings" The facts are out there.
@@josephcasley7979 :
If your bishops are truly obedient to Vatican II then your priest is offering Mass ad orientum and you are chanting the ordinaries in Latin.
You are kneeling to receive Holy Communion on your tongue, at an altar rail, with not a single "altar girl" in sight.
All of this is accompanied by beautiful organ music.
Don't believe me?
Go and read the Sixteen Documents of Vatican II
which latin mass?
@@josephcasley7979 oh so Vatican 2 bans the Mass? Interesting. Nice to see it admitted so openly. Then Vatican 2 is a false Council
All I know: I would love to experience TLM and I know I would love it. But I also know without Novus Ordo I probably wouldn’t have understood what Catholicism even truly is and converted. It’s accomplishing what it intended in evangelism. 👍☺️. Prayers for unity of all Catholics.
I live in Iceland (but an English). There is only one Catholic priest in Iceland who is actually Icelandic. We often have to say the mass in Latin because the priest cannot speak Icelandic.
I know what you mean!!! The NO saved me when I was one Alter Call away from being Protastant
@@newgeorge cool
The Catholic Rabbi exactly! I’m a firm believer that both have a place in the Church for just that reason.
@@GratiaPrima_ Do you feel the enemy if urging this division of the mass?
What I think a lot of people dislike about the NO is the lack of reverence in comparison to for example a tridentine mass.
Sure, the mass has become more accessible but for what? Mass attendance keeps plummeting and there's no forseeable betterment...
A lot of (young) catholics (either born or converts) grew up with a hunger for reverence and truth in a society which tells us everything is subjective. And then they find it in the more traditional forms of the liturgy.
I personally attend the NO because I have no problems with it. The sacrifice of the mass is still the same and we're joined to celebrate the resurrection.
Perhaps you could make a video about how we could bring more reverence back into the NO?
Two points I wanted to make on your statements:
1. On some laypeople's authority they claim the NO lacks reverence yet it hails from an Ecumenical Church Counsel. There is no higher Church authority than this. Maybe it's irreverent in ways some Parishes have instituted it but that's a separate issue. I would ask them, if the NO is irreverent, then how has it nourished the spiritual life of countless saints and three Pontiffs still?
2. Church attendance has seen a decline for decades across all denominations. If you want an enemy, blame new atheism, secular religious indifference and new age spirituality. Also worth mentioning, the Catholic Church is still blossoming in Africa and Latin America. No decline there!
abolish the New Mass
@igor lopes considering how Catholic South America is, that's not surprising. Protestantism there can't really decline, it can only stagnate or increase slowly by percentage. But given the birthrates of South Americans, Catholicism will reign supreme for at least a few hundred years if not far longer (you can't really predict demographic change after 500 years).
@@lukealvarado8511 No one is saying the mass itself is irreverent. Reverence is a matter of degrees. Anyone who has been to a solemn mass would tell you there is an order of difference between that experience and an ordinary mass. Also, solemn masses tend to attract very devout people, so they don't do ridiculous things like chat with their friends before the mass etc...
@@youneedonlyknowthenameofgo7786 I used to be annoyed by chatter before Mass as well. However, when I prayed over it, a thought came to me. Maybe it was from the Holy Spirit. But nonetheless in the spirit of charity and kindness, let them talk. Why? Because some people, especially some elderly people are lonely and very isolated. We don't know their lives. Maybe they need that interaction and sometimes, Church might be their only outlet of socialization and seeing other people. You simply can never know. So as long as it's not obscene, obnoxious or too loud, let people embrace eachother. God is a gathering force.
Why can’t we like both forms. I prefer the Latin, but I go to both depending on circumstances. I still receive communion on the tongue, kneeling.
@Janette Davis says you, a protestant going to the latin mass
@Janette Davis There is no charity in your words.This is the sin of detraction, do it no more and I highly advise bringing this particular issue to the confessional. It is a dangerous road.
@Janette Davis For 1000 years after Christ sacrifice there was no Latin Mass. The Apostles spoke Aramaic over the bread/wine. Those who are going to argue about which language the Mass MUST be in should consider the Syro-Malabar Rite of the Syriac Catholic Church which celebrates Mass in Aramaic should surely be that language. For the rest of us who aren't going to argue about the language of Mass all languages are acceptable to God as long as there is a validly ordained priest to celebrate it. I attend both Masses and receive Christ at both.
@@SaintCharbelMiracleworker Jesus said to "Judge righteous judgement" and there are plenty who say they love but are loving others into a devil's hell.
@@MrProsat A.) 1.) St. Sixtus 1 (circa 115): "The Sacred Vessels are not to be handled by others than those consecrated to the Lord."
2.) St. Basil the Great, Doctor of the Church (330-379): "The right to receive Holy Communion in the hand is permitted only in times of persecution."
St. Basil the Great considered Communion in the hand so irregular that he did not hesitate to consider it a grave fault.
3.) The Council of Saragossa (380): Excommunicated anyone who dared continue *receiving Holy Communion by hand.*
4.) This was *confirmed* by the Synod of Toledo.
5.) Saint Leo the Great read the sixth chapter of Saint John's Gospel as referring to the Eucharist (as all the Church Fathers did).
In a preserved sermon on John 6 (Sermon 9), Saint Leo says: "Hoc enim ore sumitur quod fide creditur" (Serm. 91.3). This is translated strictly as: “This indeed is received by means of the mouth which we believe by means of faith. "Ore" is here in the ablative and in the context it denotes instrumentation. So then, the *mouth* is the means by which the Holy Eucharist is received.
6.) The Synod of Rouen (650): Condemned Communion in the hand to halt widespread abuses that occurred from this practice, and as a safeguard against *sacrilege.*
The Council of Rouen (650): “Do not put the Eucharist in the hands of any layman or laywoman but *only in their mouths.”*
7.) The 6th Ecumenical Council, at Constantinople (680-681): Forbade the faithful to take the Sacred Host in their hand, threatening transgressors *with excommunication.*
8.) St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274): "Out of reverence towards this Sacrament [the Holy Eucharist], *nothing touches it,* but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest's hands, for touching this Sacrament." (Summa Theologica, Part III, Q. 82, Art. 3, Rep. Obj. 8.)
9.) The Council of Trent (1545-1565): "The fact that only the priest gives Holy Communion with his consecrated hands is an *Apostolic Tradition".*
The only people I've seen say NO mass is invalid are the Sedes, and you can't take them seriously at all. I however would love to see the Latin Mass surge to the forefront again, I think TLM breeds more reverence and deepens the respect we have for God and Catholicism in general. I also think the reverence present in TLM can bleed into parishes themselves and that could (hopefully) lead to churches investing in the beautiful. Lots of Churches lack altar rails and have plain beige walls which I think doesn't indicate the importance of the faith and/or the Mass. just my opinion.
No everyone I know is against Novus Ordo, but even more against sedevacantism
Josh Vogt correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that the SSPX argues the NO is valid, but illicit.
Josh Vogt I attend the SSPX chapels and that’s a lie.
The nuance is that the NO liturgy is protestantised and neo-modernist, not that it is invalid.
Validity is a VERY low bar though.
You should read the book "The Great Sacrilege" by Fr. James Wathen. The Novus Ordo "Mass" is certainly illegal and most likely invalid.
Banshee Brethren How about the fact that you’re lacking people and you turn them off by this picky sticky way of yours… And that since you’re insecure you have to go backwards not forward and be where God is where you are right now in here because he’s back there please also here with you and it says God brought you to the present here this philosophy, and he’s here with you now and you’re here now I think you need to pay attention
Well said. I agree. I do not fully appreciate the criticism however, it seems to me bickering that does not make sense. Again, perhaps I do not fully appreciate the criticism. My most urgent need is to be able to attend mass and receive Eucharist.
Indeed!
Read the Ottaviani Intervention. It'll give you a different perspective.
The main criticism is with the Novus Ordo Mass you are not really worshiping God. Therefore you are breaking the first and third Commandment.
Do you receive or go to the Bogus Ordo Freemason Mess and just eat your cookie?
Regardless of the Mass, we still focus on the importance of the liturgy of the word and liturgy of the Eucharist as the true presence of his body and blood. So any catholic mass that instills those elements will be the mass I attend.
Good comment!
Que diferencia habría con una celebración de la palabra donde se distribuya la comunión? Hay Palabra y hay Eucaristía.
La celebración de la misa debe ser como pide la iglesia en su magisterio, no cómo se nos ocurra a nosotros o al sacerdote de turno
Yes agree
Personally I don't think it's invalid, but it didn't help my spiritual life very much. The extraordinary form has given me great love for God and the church. It gave me something I lacked which stopped me going protestant or even atheist.
How is that posible..sorry but i must ask..is VALID but didnt help you whit spiritual life?
@@bernardokrolo2275 well it's a valid rite, just out of touch.
The novus ordo is valid but flawed. It's still kinda like an experimental mass.
@@bernardokrolo2275As a 23 year old Catholic, NO feels like outdated baby boomer kich, not really any depth to it. Traditional mass is timeless and just as good as it's always been. I see NO mass as a fad of the boomer generation that will likely die with them.
The NO doesn't help my spiritual life either and especially when I see people receiving in the hand and Eucharistic ministers; especially female Eucharistic ministers, happy Clappy music, no kneeling and no receiving on the tongue.
As a 23 year old Catholic, NO feels like outdated baby boomer kich, not really any depth to it. Well I won't call it invalid, it certainly feels inferior to traditional mass. Traditional Mass is timeless and just as good as it's always been. I see NO mass as a fad of the boomer generation that will likely die with them, and be fazed out for a return to the normal Church in the next century or so.
Amen, brilliantly stated. I couldn't agree more.🙏🏼❤️
It's very encouraging to hear a 23 year old making this comment although I hope it happens a lot sooner than the next 100 years. I am 58 and was born in 1964 and I'm the last year of the baby boomers.
I've been regularly attending the TLM since I accidentally found it in March of 2020; one week before they shut the churches down here in Massachusetts.
There is no TLM in my country. I feel like I don’t have a choice but at the same time…I’m blaming myself for not being able to attend TLM
@@christy751 What country are you in?
@@capecodder04 Samoa - it’s in the South Pacific
I have been talking to some Sedevacantists and really needed this. You have no idea how grateful I am.
@Daniel Pan 😂😂😂😂 He is spot on
Why are they said the contest have a problem with authority? With a rebellious children? And now they think they’re going to make up for it by showing off like they are? Yo conspiracy theorist! Maybe you’re investigating and show me your investigating him and take them down as they should be
Daniel Pan when’s the last time you could write an academic theological treatise that got approved . ??? How about investigate yourself and put it to the theologians at the Vatican and see what they say to say about you? Put it to the real test
Daniel Pan I don’t have a theology degree but I have a minor in theology in my undergrad.I also have a certificate as a catechist . That’s from my diocese down here in Saint Petersburg.
@Daniel Pan He knows it according to me. Check out the Vatican II documents.
No comment on the intentional Protestantization of the NO? That was the point right?
Read:"The Oath against Moderism"
And the "Ottaviani Intervention"
Exactly
The problem of the NO mass is not the liturgy itself , it's the introduction of liturgical abuses of all sorts . Disobedience is the issue, not validity. God bless
The NO is extremely beautiful and reverent when celebrated according to the rubrics if Missel. I especially like the NO celebrated using its authentic text in Latin instead of one of the vernacular translations. Watch any of the popes celebrating mass in St. Peter's basilica in Rome to see and hear it.
@Daniel Pan Yes, freemasonry has poisoned the Church. But also the Enlightenment, Marxism Communism, and Moderism as well. These poisons and more have infected the Church at all levels BEFORE the 2nd Vatican council and the introduction of the N O mass. As a result, these poisons have brought about disobedience and hence we have the mess we have today. God bless.
If you give a celebrant a vast array of options to choose from throughout the Mass, and even add in permissions to improvise prayers on the spot (at the beginning of Mass and during the Offertory, for example), you shouldn' be too surprised if you create an environment rife with liturgical creativity.
@Daniel Pan Well, I wouldn't go that far. I just think it was a terrible idea, a mistake the Church must rectify. It's a failed experiment.
@Daniel Pan There are a handful of passsages that spike the heresy meter and will require direct papal clarification/suppression, but yeah, mostly the Council was a failed experiment. Look: I'm not a sedevacantist.
If every Priest could just use incense at every mass...that would be great
Unless you have asthma...
Yea, secularism and modernism would clearly go away!
Agreed!!! This is how it was for 100s of year and no one complained - people like to whine and want it their way, not God's way. By the way frankincense protects you naturally from disease, God protects you from disease of the spirit.
With incense at every Mass, many people, like my granddaughter, could not attend m
Mass. She cannot breathe smoke, and the scent and smoke would make her ill
The mass in Germany is so boring. It is like everybody is dying at every second. 😔 I can hardly see possibility for convertion of new people. Its like: we dont care, lets keep like to us. The younger genaration is not important. Very sad. In Brazil the celebration are very alive! The life is celebrated. Concerning incense: In Brazil and Germany is used in " special" celebrations, but not in the common time.
My two cents. I go to regular mass held in English every day. I cry often. If you aren't moved by regular mass you aren't doing it properly. Your heart has been hardened and that's on you to work on not the mass itself.
thank you thank you THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SAY IT LOUDER FOR EVERYONE IN THE BACK!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, Robert L. Well said, sir !!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am always moved so emotionally during the Mass, and attend the Novus Ordo form in my town. We do not have any churches in my town with the Latin form of Mass. God bless our True Catholic Faith. Amen.
@@bernadettemintmier9618 yeah we don't have Latin mass here that I'm aware. I would go but its just not an option for some catholics. But to say one is better or one isn't valid is just terrible. I mean if you get more from Latin mass than English or N.O. mass then go to Latin mass I personally don't speak or understand Latin so going is basically pointless. My mom was raised on Latin mass and she doesn't understand it either. If you're being so move by reading the gospel during Latin mass and not understanding the rest...wait until you go to a mass you actually understand..... I don't see how either really compare they are just different. Both valid im sure. That said I do watch Christmas and Easter mass given by the pope. While I still go to both in English to actually receive Communion. If It wasn't for the nun that does the narration I wouldn't understand the pope either...... to each their own. Im 32 I don't know all the answers but I know enough to know you shouldn't bash someone for their liturgy preference. I personally don't get much from Latin mass, but I know why. Its because I don't understand the language. However when I attend either I do get one thing. I am a part of a 2000 year tradition that claims Jesus as our messiah, lord, son of God , and savior. I just thought this today at mass as a matter of fact. Some readings and gospels are more moving than others. I find the majority of the time the gospel doesn't mean much to me but others it hits really hard and the language the mass is said in would have no effect on that.
I appreciate both for what they are. One for tradition. Im glad we have priests that still give Latin mass. And the other for something I can take in and understand in a context that I can relate to. Believe it or not I don't have much in common with monks from 1000ad
I agree. I don’t cry, but I am moved by the mass in English. Same with the Chrystosomos Divine Liturgy in English. I think the Latin Mass is a rallying point of radical traditionalists who almost seem to worship the tradition.
@@robertl6770 Heard of a Missal?
Pre-Vatican II was The Narrow Gate. Matthew 7:13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The road to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
I prefer the Traditional Latin Mass over the Novus Ordo Missae, and as much as I wish the Tridentine Mass would be the universal norm of the liturgy, the Novus Ordo Mass is still valid. It is approved by the Vatican so it is valid. I still attend both proudly. However, the switch to the Novus Ordo Mass has had many negative effects on the Church today. There is lack of reverence at your everyday NO mass. There may be some, but it doesn't match up in the level of respect of the TLM. I like to say the Novus Ordo is the Latin Rite but simplified. I'll say watered down sometimes, because when you hear the prayers, I feel the prayers in the TLM dive deeper into the Catholic faith. Because of the less rigid following of the Roman Missal, abuses creep in with holding hand, orans posture by the laity, and the kiss of peace. The music can also fall in this category. The sacred Gregorian Chant is again deeper in meaning than your typical entrance or communion hymn. The chants relate to the mass propers and add reflection on the specific Sunday or Holy Day. As a result, mass attendance declined dramatically, less people are seeing the majestic Catholic Church as it is by not converting, people leaving the Church, and less people believe in the true presence. There are statistics to back this up. Approx. 70% of Catholics don't believe in the true presence of the Eucharist or attend mass regularly. Sure, the attendance can be down with some of the poor handling of the abuse scandals but still. I see TLM churches full to capacity after COVID and NO masses barely at 50 people when the limit is like 50-75%. However, the priests in the Latin Mass will tell you upfront what you need to do so people are bound to follow Church teaching and the Ten Commandments by attending mass each week. It does break my heart because it was perfectly fine prior to the Second Vatican Council and the new liturgy. That being said, the sacraments (so like the consecration during mass) are all valid as it is a recognized form, but both forms are valid, and I still prefer the older, much deeper Latin Mass. God Bless!
The NO aims to go back in time to something the early church could have/would have done. The premise behind it is well intentioned. The reason why 70% of Catholics dont believe in teh real present has nothing to do with liturgy and everything to do with catechesis. The average evangelical vs the average catholic in catechesis..the evangelical wins everytime by a wide margin. You want fuller churches, then there needs to be real teaching of doctrines from the pulpit. Not class rooms during the week. Not from a stand alone book that no one reads(CCC).
@@zeropride1133 This is what I want to implement in my parish. Weekly lessons for all parishioners not just for those doing RCIA. Where we could use the CCC along with watching >20min YT clips from this channel or Dr Brant Pitre's channel or Catholic Answers and have discussions.
I full heartedly agree. But I was disappointed by you calling the kiss of peace an abuse. The kiss of peace is very ancient and is included in the most ancient eastern liturgy: Divine Liturgy of saint james, and the most ancient western liturgy: Mass of Saint Ambrose, and is seen within many early church descriptions of the Mass.
It is the whole society that lacks reverence towards God, the process has begun a long time ago with protestantism, the fench revolution, the separation of church and state and so on..
@@composaboi :
The PAX in the Latin Mass is a blessing (not a kiss) passed from the priest to the deacon and then to the sub-deacon.
The "kiss of peace" in the Novus Ordo is a way to force our attention away from the altar, and the Body and Blood of Christ there, turn our backs to God, and socialize with mere humans.
There is time before or after Mass to kiss, hug or shake hands, but anyone who truly believes in the Real Presence will not want to take his attention away from the altar of sacrifice.
The Calvary!
I reject the NO mass. I was a convert from protestant and the NO mass is just the same with what i used to attended before. Thus i convert to Trad Catholicism.
@Colin Sheehan bruh
@Colin Sheehan Your Ad Hominem attacks paint a false picture and easily refuted per your need to rely in broad brushes and Ad Hominem.
@Colin Sheehan Okay, so you are arguing against that, so now argue in favor of the Novus Ordo.
And where are 1-9 incorrect as to teaching, setting aside Latin being used?
@Colin Sheehan Things were not on the decline, and abuses are ongoing. Secondly, Vat II agrees in some ways with the schismatic Martin Luther, so it's either the infallible Council of Trent, declared to be so from popes in its time period and after or it's Vat II and its a multitude of popes vs Francis or its Francis.
@Colin Sheehan No, and this isn't about me.
This is about the form of the Eucharistic service, not the language used per se which is secondary. The form either lines up with Trent and all the popes and councils that Trent agrees with and agree with Trent or it agrees with Vat II concerning who may touch the sacred vessels (men and ordained, consecrated) and the receiving in the hand or the mouth.
The Eastern, Byzantine rite and the Tridentine, Latin are in agreement on the above with Vat II not in total agreement, and while the East and West don't agree on language being used, they both agree it should be traditional per their respective spheres.
So you making this about East vs. West is the wrong dichotomy, it's more about Trad E and W vs. Vat II.
We want ad orientum mass
Have it then and enjoy. I'll stick with so called novus ordo. Mass is mass.
@@EuropeanQoheleth “For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man” (Matthew 24:27)
“…Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner[2] as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:11)
We believe that our Lord ascended on the Mount of Olives, and when He comes back, He will come on a cloud[3] from the East.
“And the glory of the Lord came into the house, by the way of the gate looking eastward:” (Eze 43:4 )
@@EuropeanQoheleth You nailed it.
@@saintsm You can go to TLM or NO its your choice.
@@EuropeanQoheleth Mass is Mass, as you say. Unfortunately, NO is a fertile seed-bed for all kinds of "variations" hence as HE Robert Cardinal Sarah has commented, some of our Masses resemble the 'parish-tea' party. I agree with the Cardinal that saying Holy Mass facing the people is unfitting. We see too much of the personage of the priest. NO can be said reverently, but we need to celebrate it "ad orientem". There are many erroneous ideas about the Holy Mass. It is not to be seen as a communal meal but rather as the unblooded re-enactment of Our Lord, Jesus Christ's Passion and Death.
Apparently the Latin mass did not do some people any good. However, I would like to see the prayer protecting us from Satan restored to the Novo Ordo mass.
Good luck! The leader of the jesuit order doesnt even believe in Satan.
That doesn't work! Because they are Freemasons and evil sects.
How to stop invalid Novus Ordo mass?
Answer...We need the Consecration of Russia by name to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
@@catholic3dod790 I always wonder, why the Jesuits order are hated, why was it not banned by the Vatican if it is free mason??
@@cck53sg
Pope (I forgot which) from 1700's did ban Jesuit then Jesuit rose again right after his death. Google it. V2 sect house is full of masons and evils that support Jesuit.
You know yer stuff...personally, the Mass as I know it has beauty. Some people may not think it is a reverent experience. That may happen...I dont know...What I do know is for me...I'm worshiping Christ, believing in Him, and celebrating his sacrifice for me and all mankind in Latin, English, big church, or small church. Peace!✝️
When you know the Truth, you can not deny it.
The amount of traditional Catholics who believe the NO to be invalid is incredibly minute. It's a fringe group of loud-mouthed keyboard warriors.
The overwhelming majority of people who attend TLM don't do so because they think the NO is "invalid". They do it because they find NO to be overall less reverent and less beautiful. Quite frankly, it's near impossible to say that they're wrong. NO can be beautiful, but it's often not.
Recently, there have been several attacks by popular Catholic social media influencers against traditionalist communities. These attacks have been defending Vatican II and the NO Mass as legitimate and that the trads are heretics.
Here's the thing: most traditional Catholics don't disagree. Most trads fully accept the faith. They simply want to see a return to stronger reverence in devotional practices.
The loud-mouthed sedevacantists don't represent the traditional Catholic movement. And by lumping all TLM attendees in with them, you are only sowing further division by failing to address the legitimate concerns of traditional-minded Catholics.
We should all be able to agree that not only is the NO Mass valid, but it is also deeply flawed in its practice and implementation. For the overwhelming majority of us, we don't think the NO is invalid, we simply want it to be fixed.
There is no need fixing the NO....Everyone has their own version of REVERENCE and SPIRITUALITY....Catholic Charismatic groups which are More in numbers connect more to a Charismatic Novus Ordo mass than the boring Latin Mass...
Krishyy Fan
I am fine with a little bit of charismatic preaching here and there, but I swear to Almighty God if we start introducing praise bands into our cathedrals, the faith is lost.
Also I don’t think the Latin mass is boring assuming people understand it, if anything it helps draw a distinct line between the sacred and the mundane, so what we should do is teach all of our kids Latin.
@@allthenewsordeath5772 ??...So eplain to me Why Charismatic Catholicism now has 100 million members all over the world??
I can even show you Charismatic Catholic Priests with 1 million subscribers....How come your little LAtin MAss can't do this in youtube??
It's 10 years of CZcams...What happened??....
Obviously the Holy Sprit preserves the Latin Mass for the sake of preservation....But Novus Ordo is the new tool of the Holy Spirit to evangelize the Modern World...
Krishyy Fan
Forgive me for saying so, but I don’t feel as if a mass where in the Eucharistic ministers ride around on rollerskates, and how great thou Art is played with a four chord structure by a bad drummer and a mediocre bass guitarist, is particularly compelling, and will reflect well on the church’s ability to maintain tradition in spite of the stupidity of the world around it.
Mind you I’m not even very salty about mass in the vernacular, as it is certainly possible to have mass in the vernacular while maintaining sufficient respect for tradition and the mass, but what I do find distasteful is the idea that the church must adopt some sort of flashy or condescending messaging in order to appeal to the contemporary world, as if The current generation is utterly incapable of understanding the gospel, unless it is shoved down their throat with a strobe light presentation and some idiot in skinny jeans.
If we can learn anything from the shallow protestant evangelicalism that swept America over the last 25 years, it is to not do that dumb crap.
@@allthenewsordeath5772 there are 1.2 billion catholics and 100 million Charismatic Catholics...How many of them preach with Roller Skates??
Just because you see certain obvious abuse, it does not mean you throw everything away...
I can equally argue that the SElling of Indulgence was a rampant abuse in Latin Mass during Protestant reformation period...
It's actually WORSE than a few priests with roller skates...
Excellent. Thank you for that update.
One of the best most concise and pleasing videos you have yet done. Applaud from Europe.
5:17 the sunglasses! Just the right amount of levity. Great editing!
What an amazingly well put together and educational video. Saving this for future reference, too. Thank you, Father!
I heavily appreciate these last videos,
At first they seem like bickering on church politics, but this anti Papal anti Council attitude must stop if we want to advance as a church. Thank you and God be with you forever father!
So your point is these traditional catholics are no better than protestants?
@@zacharyertengrass892 That depends on what you mean by "traditional catholic." If you mean a Catholic who prefers the pre-Vatican II liturgy and spirituality to the current mass, but still accepts the authority of Vatican II and the Pontiff, then there's no issue with that.
But if you're referring to any of the sedevacantist sects who deny the authority of the Vatican II, and believe that the seat of Peter lies vacant, then that's straddling right on the line of schism.
@@jack_skeean It's all ridiculous. The idea that Jesus wanted to set up some huge church for 2,000 years to build giant cathedrals is preposterous and ridiculous. The executed as heretics people who translated the bible. OK now not OK then? Childish. God has no part in it.
@@zacharyertengrass892 That's an "argument from incredulity" fallacy. Whether you personally find something to be preposterous has nothing to do with whether it's true or not. The Catholic Church has blood in its past, just like every single other historic religion. The church is made of sinners, after all.
Whether or not we build cathedrals has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the faith. If it's an historical fact that Jesus rose from the dead and founded the Catholic Church, then Catholicism is true. It's really that simple.
@@jack_skeean Sigh. Friend. If it is true why is it so obviously wrong so often? You're talking gobbledygook. Unless you think Jesus was a fool or the devil. Then your argument makes perfect sense.
One of the things I love about the Roman Church: eternal and unchanging except when it is not. In all seriousness, very informative!
Isn't calling it Roman a pejorative wc originated from Protestants to spread false belief that Constantine started the Church? I don't think we should use their false name on us
Referring to the Roman Church as, well, the Roman Church helps to distinguish it from the rest of the church catholic (Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, etc) and has nothing to do with Constantine. In the video Pius V refers to the "Holy Roman Church," which is so called because the seat of authority is in Rome. Being a Lutheran, a member of the church catholic but not the Catholic (Roman) church, I refer to the Roman (Catholic) church as the Roman church to remind my (Roman) Catholic friends that the church catholic is bigger than Rome.
Blessings from a catholic brother. Have a good day.
Joe Sarnowski You should watch the CZcams channel called How To Be Christian and watch Dr. Brandt Pitre on the Catholic Productions CZcams channel. God bless you! And you have a good day as well!
I presume that the comments above are referring to the Catholic Church, of the Latin Rite.
Let's try to stick with the correct terminology.
Roman churches are those in the City of Rome!
@@alhilford2345 Roman church refers to those churches which are under the jurisdiction of, and in communion with, the Roman Pontiff, including those which are Eastern Rite. It is a correct and accurate term.
Have a blessed day.
"THE COUNCIL OF TRENT
Session XXI - The fifth under the Supreme Pontiff, Pius IV, celebrated on the sixteenth day of July, 1562
CHAPTER II
THE POWER OF THE CHURCH CONCERNING THE DISPENSATION OF THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST
It declares furthermore, that in the dispensation of the sacraments, their substance preserved (SALVA ILLORUM SUBSTANTIA), the Church may, according to circumstances, times and places, determine or CHANGE whatever she may judge most expedient for the benefit of those receiving them or for the veneration of the sacraments; and this power has always been hers."
Thank you Israel. You summed it up fantastically!!!
God bless you Isreal ! Unfortunately this will go on deaf ears for many I still feel the blame of Vatican 2 in the comments even if Br Casey made it clear in his video Stop Blaming Vatican 2...thanks for the info !
Have you read quo primum? Pius V also has interesting things to say.
@@MDART-oo5dt trent and quo primum can't go against each other....Either the Council is not infallible or infallible..which is which??
@@krishyyfan5153 they don't😏
Interesting theory but two things mitigate against it. 1) Canon XIII of the VII session of the Council of Trent.
Council of Trent VII session
CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.
The received and approved can’t be a mass ritual drafted with no direct apostolic lineage i.e in the 1960's. The Novus Ordo Missae has no direct apostolic linage and resembles Protestant worship services.
2) The precipitous collapse of Catholic life after Vatican 2 and the implementation of the Novus Ordo Missae look like the censure of St. Pius V has occured i.e. the "wrath of Almighty God and the Blessed apostles Peter and Paul"
I'm 58 years old and I attend a Latin Mass on Sundays. I took to it like a fish to water a little over 2 years ago when I accidentally came across it and I felt and seen the reverence in this Mass despite not knowing a thing of what was being said or how to follow it in the Missal.
If your first point here is true, then this seems like a very good point.
The 2nd point is obvious but it appears that the church is ready to go down with the ship along with the ballast of the NO weighing it down!
I too hope that some day soon the Latin Mass returns as the official Mass of the whole Church and this cheap irreveraant NO is abolished forever!! †††
We have definitely lost a lot by implementing this NO Mass and now the suppression of the Latin Mass by the communist freemason that is acting as our Pope.
I just want to point out that everything said here DOES NOT in any way, shape or form give credit to the novus ordo, it just tells us that "yes the missal can be changed so the novus ordo stands" wich also means bytheway that "yes, the novus ordo itself can be changed, and the latin mass can be restored"... and i did not really like the fact that such a "little detail" was not told, giving the impression that the ones who don't like the novus ordo "should just give up"
My First Holy Communion in 1990, and it was absolutely lovely.
No clowns, no puppets, no guitars.
All organ music.
All beautiful.
Please.....
...... don't attack my First Holy Communion.
It was beautiful.
wishing i could’ve received my First Holy Communion that way :/
I'm sure it was & could still be a lovely option if the fanatics didn't turn it into a drummed up battlefield. I've seen absolutely beautiful devout first communions in both rites.
About 20 years ago, I had the misfortune of coming to Midnight Mass on Chirstmas Eve a few minutes before Mass started. So, I was shunted down to the basement, where they had, yes, a Guitar Mass. I couldn't believe it. I always really disliked Guitar Masses, and I thought they disappeared in the 70s, along with bell bottom pants. I never understood the purpose of playing a Guitar during Mass.
I might have mentioned earlier in this thead that I tend to be a minimalist. If it were up to me, there would be no music at all, and none of those darn handshakes.
Thank you Father Casey this is so clear and all of your hard work is very much appreciated. Controversies like these can be so upsetting and difficult to tweese apart, thank you, thank you.
Thanks for making this video. It clarified a very important point for me and what you said makes sense to me. But whatever form of mass we prefer to celebrate, let us all remember that we are one church and that the purpose of the mass is to commemorate the passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ as He commanded during the Last Supper.
Thank you very much, Father, for this in-depth 8-minute lesson of Liturgy! I appreciated and listend to it with great attention!
It's lies.
Thank you I converted over to the Catholic faith. I love watching your videos cause it helps me more understand this wonderful faith. God bless you and keep up the good work. Thank you.
Thank you for this amazing and timely Video Father. I was confused for a some years about these issues until i read - "The pope, the council and the mass" this is a great resource for those interested. May God continue to guide you in your work.
Yes it is! I just discovered the book you referred to, and it is a wonderful resource, answering so many of my questions.
Oh I see, this is probably why Our Lady said specifically to "Pray for the priests..."
Thank you fr for clearing any up confusion or misinterpretation! Could you please do Lumen Gentium art 16 next? There is plenty of confusion about that as well! Thank you for all your work!
Thank you very much for making this video and putting it into a historical context.
This begs a question. Was the mass prior to 1570 invalid?
Look up Fr. Hesse and you will get a straight answer.
Thank you, ive been looking for this explanation for a long time. I can now explain this issue to my friends at SSPX.
@Josip Rakušić Happy Easter Josip ! I have something you'd be interested to see directly from the mouth and written words of the SSPX. Although you say you don't think much of the MHFM Dimond brothers, they do present solid papal instructions and dogma. So, before you start attending one of their places, PLEASE look at the video dated 4/5/23 where Lefebvre in his book Against the Heresies states that non-catholics can be saved in other religions. I attended some myself and questioned the writings they produced and sure enough, that's what they state that they believe - without clearly saying that they left those 'religions' and converted - so there is no mistake about what they're saying or believe - which is heresy. Mind you, as much as I didn't want to believe it, I found that Lefebvre was ordained by a high ranking mason in the church... you can search that out for yourself. The same goes for SSP5. Hope this helps... as much as we like a wonderful building and community... it's better to be alone with the Lord than with those who are heretical and not apostolically ordained.
The people who criticize CVII don't argue that the problem is simply changing the 1570 missal, but what kind of change. Compare the Missal from 1570 to that of 1962 and then to that of 1969/1970. The state of the missal in 1962 is much closer to the 1570 then the Novus Ordo missal. The New Mass made a stark and big change in every level. So the matter is not change, but what kind of change.
The traditional Roman Rite as codified by Pius V in 1570 had no changes save for new feasts....until 1955. Between 1955 and 1962, there was a small but notable flurry of changes - a new Holy Week, a new festal ranking system, elimination of 15 out of 18 octaves, removal of some feasts, the addition of St Joseph to the Canon, and removal of the Confiteor before Communion. Still looks like 1570 on a typical day; but worth noting just how much changed in the mid-20th century - going back to 1955, not just 1962.
@@richardmalcolm1457 Surely, but up till 1962 the changes were all "incremental" rather starting over. There was no simplification, no "let's go back to the primitive church" because somehow that means better, and no attempt to please non Catholics (who thought that if we left the most "polemic" parts out that would attract non Catholics? I would never...).
@@rjltrevisan "no 'let's go back to the primitive church.'" But that *was*, in fact, th justification for the new Holy Week in 1955! Granted, it's not as radical a project as what we got in 1964-69; but it represents an initial, more restrained wave of the liturgical revolution. Even the limited changes of Pius XII and John XXIII in 1955-62 were still more, far more, than all the combined changes made between 1570 and 1955.
@@richardmalcolm1457 Surely it didn't all begin with no signs in the CVII, surely there were signs since CVI
@@rjltrevisan There are definitely signs of real trouble in the early 20th century; and yes, the roots go back to at least the Enlightement. The two world wars really ramped up the rot, though.
I really appreciate you making these recent videos about Vatican II and the individual "issues" being roiled around the internet. Thanks for speaking truth, Fr. Casey.
In the Middle Ages there were regional Rites, such as the Sarum (Salisbury) Rite which was compiled shortly after the Norman conquest of England and attempted to reconcile Anglo Saxon and Norman liturgy. Its popularity spread throughout much of Europe.
Yesssssss
Wow! I learnt a lot from this 8mins video. Thank you Fr Casey.
Only fringe trad groups have a problem with this. I would still like the restoration of the Roman Rite to happen, thank you very much. I have a duty to my forefathers in the Faith.
What do you mean?
'Only fringe trad groups...'
Seems to me, that could be changed to 'only fringe trad groups in the U.S.' The U.S. doesn't have the best track record of avoiding fringe religious groups. Most fringe groups from here are Protestant, though. But there's others (e.g., Mormons and JWs, which I would argue aren't Protestant).
Ok. That makes sense
Forefathers in the faith? you think St. Peter and St. Paul celebrated the Latin Mass?
@@MrProsat No. I know they said it in Hebrew and Aremiac. I'm sorry if I gave the impression otherwise
Lack of reverence before Mass is due to people not knowing how to behave , society has become less formal not the Mass . In our church people greet their friends but are respectful when the bell rings to signal the Priest is ready to start and only silence or hymn singing follows . The only voices heard during Mass are very young children and I like hearing them because a church with no children is a dead church . Also I want to understand what is being said so I want my own language not a dead language. I can take part fully then . It’s important We understand and participate in Mass . I want to be a member of a congregation not an audience member
People don't know how to behave because we no longer hear how to behave in Church. HE, Robert Cardinal Sarah has commented that in some of our churches the Holy Mass resembles the parish tea-party! We no longer know the meaning of reverence. Is Novus Ordo valid? I would say, "yes". But, celebration "versus populi" overemphasises the person of the priest and we are left with the impression that the Mass is more about "us" rather than the Lord. We have come to see Holy Mass as a communal meal rather than a bloodless re-enactment of the Sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus Christ on Calvary. Everything has become wishy-washy and watered-down. Minimally, Holy Mass needs to be celebrated "ad orientem" but for whatever reason there seems to be widespread aversion to the very idea let alone its practise. As for understanding, do we understand Transubstantiation?
@@jozefbubez6116 :
Right!
FLD:
May I, with all due respect, enquire if you have ever attended a Latin Mass, and, if you have, how frequently, and did you attempt to follow it with a Missal?
I can see that you are devout and sincere in you beliefs and have a great love for the Holy Mass, but it it really fair to ignore the fact that that the Latin liturgy has well served the Church for fifteen hundred years?
During those years, as the Church was growing, every country and region in the world had its own language, and yet it was the official Latin of the Church that made us Catholic, universal.
I'm also wondering if you realize that it is not just a matter of language, but that the very prayers, gestures and attitude of the priest and altar boys are so different at the traditional Mass.
The Motu Propio is just so painful for us Old Rite believers. It's like all other Catholic groups are welcome in the Church except us. I see the Old Rite Mass as a more spiritually enriching form than the New Rite.
First time I heard about Novus Ordo was from a video of a protestant deciding whether to go to high Latin Mass or Novus Ordo... Me as catholic o.O what?
This is so simple. The original text is more about where the AUTHORITY of changing the Missal lies rather than about an unchanging Missal. It states that the authority lies with the church as a whole.
That isn't quite correct. The authority lies with the Pope, not the Church as a whole in some democratic sense.
@@johnm5928 yeah, but the Pope is the Church in an institutional sense. So that's what I meant. But reading it again, it is a little confusing. Thanks
John M well said, however the pope’s authority comes from the Church.
@@Marg1312 Not really - the Pope's authority comes from God. The Pope has authority over the Church, but does not derive that authority from the Church.
John M oh ok, didn’t know that. Thanks for the insight John!
Hello Father Casey! It's great to see you back. I had a question if you don't mind.
What are your thoughts on the bit of controversy surrounding the words "lead us not into temptation" and the Holy Father's supposed 'mistranslation' ("do not let us fall into temptation") according to our more traditionalist brothers? Personally it was very strange for me, since "do not let us fall" is the way we've been praying in Spanish for decades haha, have we been praying wrong? 😅
Also I wanted to thank you for helping me get so much more in contact with my faith. I feel like I'm on the right path...
Blessings!
Absolutely brilliant as always Fr. Casey. Thank you.
Thank you Father Casey. Very interesting and I love learning more about my faith thru you.
It's funny how this fight in between Novus Ordo and the Latin mass does not seem to be a problem here in Latin America. The ppl that reject the NO and the Pope authority are just creating division within the church and rejecting church authority which could lead to mayor problems. Novus Ordo has the advantage of being more approachable and easy to follow, however the Latin mass has the advantage of being more intertwined with tradition and an added sense of respect. I've been talking to many old ppl about the Latin mass and they all have very fond memories about it, they even still have their misal. I would like for the Novus Ordo to continue, but I think it would be a good idea for the church to institute the Lain mass one week per month or maybe every two months for the new generations to experience.
@Private Citizen It's because the world we live in, it's a dying society. Parents don't care to educate their children in respect, virtues and religion, they focus to much in giving them economic stability. Schools only care to impart knowledge about STEAM and neglect values and religion. And the media exposes the mind o minor's to all kinds of corruption and constantly goes against the church. The strings are moving within society against the church, reform its needed for society and for the church, but I think that we have to hit rock bottom first , then a more spiritual society and church will emerge.
It's not a fight in Africa and the Catholic Church is growing here more than ever before. I didn't even know that there was a fight between these 2 until I started watching American Catholic CZcamsrs this time of the pandemic.
@Private Citizen How are you going to pretend this isnt a problem in Europe and North America? Lol
@Private Citizen The heck are you talking about? The Dominican Republic had a population of 4.5 million in 1970 and nearly 11 million today. By your own numbers, there are MORE Catholics there today than 50 years ago, by a whole million people! The Catholic Church isn't losing followers, it just isn't growing in pace with the population, which is a different issue. What it means is that Pope Francis is right. The Church isn't being abandoned by its parishioners. It's just failing in the popularity contest to get more people interested in joining. Now, you might make an argument that all those people were baptized at birth, but not all of them were from Catholic families, and baptismal at birth isn't by choice. The younger people who no longer identify as Catholics don't do so because they have any special love for the Latin Mass and the traditions they never experienced but because today's Catholic Church is stale to them, almost irrelevant. The Church must change and keep pace, the same way the Church had throughout history. From what I'm seeing the Church is trying too. More shaloms than aves now, more focus on getting the lay members interested in actually reading and understanding scripture rather than have scripture spoon-fed to them, more involvement in social issues and a general acceptance of scientific facts, even if they contradict ancient belief. I've even seen pioneering pastors discuss scriptural criticism and open up about the parts of the Church belief structure taken from the apocrypha (the real ones, not the Lutheran blasphemy). I think the Church is trying and experimenting, and it's getting more engagement from critically-minded youth now, although I don't know how it'll go in the future. I've seen a pastor cover Christian symbolism in Gainax anime (which is popular here in Indonesia) in Sunday school, which while cringy is pretty groundbreaking and surprisingly in-touch.
@Private Citizen I live in Uganda where the church is growing but it is NO all the time. There are actually no Latin masses anywhere. Besides, don't forget that the NO was introduced to address a concern. It was not because pagan popes and bishops connived to take everyone to hell.
I love the Latin Mass and try to attend. The Novus Ordo isn't an issue with me either and I love it too. I will say though that people in the Church trying to invalidate the Latin Mass need to take a step back. In fact, we all do and learn to appreciate both forms of the Mass. THAT is when the Unity Pope Francis wants will be established.
@Pro Justice something tells me you just read headlines off of twitter and watch tiktoks. You might be right but the burden of proof is on you.
@@GiftofChaosStudio this comment didn’t age well lol since it’s been on the news
@@adamleetucker3964 what are you talking about?
@@GiftofChaosStudio Pope Francis has no interest in appreciating the TLM. His version of unity has proven to be suppression
@@adamleetucker3964 agreed..
Another excellent video by Father. I think it is important to mention, however, that Quo Primam did not mandate or impose a new formulation of the Mass, but instead codified the Mass as it had developed organically over the centuries. I believe that the impetus of Quo Primam was to prevent the innovations and errors that had crept into some liturgies as a result of the Protestant revolt and this is why it allowed rites that were 200 years old or older to continue to be celebrated; thus, Pope Pius V was inoculating against Protestant errors. The imposition of the Novus Ordo did the opposite of what Quo Primum did-- it attempted to abrogate rites that were old and thus it attempted to break the connection with past rites, whereas Quo Primum attempted to solidify the connection to the past.
Very enlightening, thank you.
Thank you so much for this video.
I can completely get with those that Love the Extraordinary Mass, I’m willing to attend and learn.
UNTIL I hear someone say Novus Ordo is invalid. I can’t get away fast enough. I just left the Protestant Church, I want nothing to do with a new generation of schismatics.
No one thinks NO mass is invalid. But it is sad that the old Mass was removed, it was aso great. The new Mass can be very awesome if done properly though
You need to learn the definition of schism and schismatic.
@@SperoinDeothere's a nutcase a few comments above denouncing the last few popes as illegitimate, ranting about the superiority of the Latin mass and how the church that is loyal to the current pope isn't the real Catholic church anymore. If that isn't schismatic, I don't know what is.
@@vinoneil The mystical body of Christ is made up of Catholics - heretics and schismatics are not a part of the mystical body of Christ. Can one who is not a part of the mystical body of Christ be the leader of the mystical body of Christ? This is a legitimate question, and thus, uncertainty on the validity of Francis as pope is valid. If this makes me a nut case in your opinion, so be it. What Francis has made clear in the last decade is that he is a Modernists. Modernism is a heresy condemned by the church.
At this point, one who isn’t questioning that Francis is pope is: simply re-writing Catholicism, ignorant on these issues or putting their head in the sand.
I am not a sedevacantist, but I’m also not hostile to their position. I’m a practical sedevacantist, meaning I ignore pretty much everything Francis has to say. I’d bet >80% of traditionalists fall in this camp.
Again, thank you Father Casey. And God bless all people of good will.
Surprised you used Archbishop John Nienstedt as your thumbnail. I knew him when he was Archbishop of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis. Anyways I personally like the Novus Ordo, when done reverently it can be quite a beautiful mass.
Nothing to be surprised about. I simply needed a good picture of the Novus Ordo Mass, and this was a good one.
@@BreakingInTheHabit Father Casey, an honest question here, I was just wondering what your personal stance on the Tridentine Mass is. If given the opportunity, would you perform the Eucharistic Sacrifice? Or do you find the whole thing archaic. It's fine if you do, I'm just curious.
Breaking In The Habit not really surprised, I guess wrong word it was just funny I guess to see him because I knew him a bit.
Mah Zigga I’m pretty sure he’s said before that he thinks it’s great that it speaks to some people so beautifully, and it should be available for people who want it wherever it is practical to do so. But based on the way he says so, I don’t think he feels personally called to celebrate it in the near future and obviously if he *was* called to do so, would need to prepare so he could celebrate it WELL-he’s not the type to just mumble words off a script without knowing exactly what he’s doing first.
@@IONATVS I know he obviously prefers NO which is fine, I just wanted to know what he thinks about Tridentine for HIM, not in general for other people.
I just wish he would respond... 🙄
Thank you very much Fr. Casey for this video, it is great to have canonical and historical informations of this kind, they help us to explore and comprehend our faith in a deeper logical level and they’re very useful. I’ll have to admit that i prefer the Vetus Ordo, i find it closer to my spirituality, i love the fact that all the assembly is pointing to the altar, it gives me a higher sense of worshipping, i love the fact that it is in Latin and that it is mainly chanted. Latin is the Church official language and might also be a universal one, the fact that we can have the same Mass in every country gives me a deeper sense of unity (and i do love the sound of Latin prayers and chants), plus i live in Italy so I have access to beautiful churches that have centuries of history and hearing a Latin chant inside of them is just beautiful, you can tell that they were suited for that particular kind of worshipping...
This said, I’ve mostly been to NO Masses and i also find them profound and deeply moving, their invalidity has never been on the line in my experience, it’s just that nowadays they don’t suit much with my spiritual experience.
Two weeks ago i’ve researched the life of Archbishop Lefebvre and i think that all Catholics should thank him for his defense of the Vetus Ordo Mass, if nowadays we can chose between the two is something we owe to him and to all the priests that have kept and the are keeping this rite alive. After all, in this strange internal “fight” between Novus and Vetus Ordo Mass, there’s only one thing that leaves me clueless, and it’s the fact that Paul VI powerfully went for the Novus Ordo declaring the Vetus Ordo dead (liturgically speaking), and the fact that he excommunicated Lefebvre for he decided to go on with the Vetus Ordo speaks for himself.
Couldn’t he simply “strongly recommend” the Novus Ordo without disposing of the Vetus Ordo? Couldn’t he keep them both in the first place?
My understanding is that Paul the 6th did not like the changes and the liberals tried to isolate him.
@@charlesdayon8420 i've recently red a book called "Work of human hands" by Fr. Anthony Chekada which takles a lot of issues surrounding the NO.
Paul VI did celebrate "kinda like" NO Masses even before 1962, during Pius XII reign he was admonished by the Holy See because he went for changes that were not allowed such as celebrating "coram populi" or by using the vernacular when it was not permitted.
He was very aware of the luthurgical movement of the '50s and did approve the changes they were trying (and manage to) apply later on
@@marcoricotti7359 I also read a book , I cannot remember the title. The book stated that Paul 6 was very liberal and probably a homosexual. He was elected because he was so liberal, after he was elected Pope the burden of office weighed on him and he decided to serve God loyally, no liberal hankie pankie. The liberals were disappointed and when Humane Vitae came out against contraception they were furious. Pope John Paul 1 was also very liberal and said he was going to modernize the church and Mass more. So somebody did him in. It's a surprise Pope John Paul 2nd got in as Pope. The Bayside apparitions of Virgin Mary at Bayside, New York brought me back to the Catholic church in 1985 .Virgin Mary said Pope Paul 6 was replaced by an imposter because he wouldn't go along with the agenda of apparently the modernists. These Last Days Ministries. Org. A.K.A. , Our Lady of the Roses, Mary Help of Mothers. It is not approved by the Catholic church , they have their heads stuck up their butts.
@@charlesdayon8420 let’s not say the Catholic Church when referring to anything negative. Refer to the leader ship in whatever way you see fit so long as it is true, but the Catholic Church is perfect and pristine and can never be anything else.
@@adjesumpermariam6515 " How can the robber plunder the rich man's goods, unless he first bounds the rich man, and then he plunders the rich man's goods " , Jesus of course is the rich man and the Sacraments are part of the goods. Prophecy indicates that Satan will sit upon the seat of Peter, and will proclaim himself as God. He will not necessarily sit upon the seats of the Protestant, churches, they are of less value. Hail Mary full of grace the lord is with thee, Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus, Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
I don't understand the argument for vernacular mass. If it's good to have it in your native language, then the Church had been doing it wrong for thousands of years in many places, because Latin was ever only dominant in Italy. The territories Rome conquered never fully embraced the Latin language.
It's good to have it in your native language, because you understand and connect more😊
@@fnv870 thank you for your answer, but it doesn't really answer my question. for all of the Western Church's history, most people did not speak Latin. So were we doing it wrong until 1970?
@@henrylansing9734 Not necessarily wrong because it is not a infallible teaching that it should be in Latin. At that time, that was the situation in Europe. But when we think about it, the eastern part of the Catholic Church before and after the schism never did the Eucharist in Latin. So, it was a matter of the Latin Church in the Catholic Church.
@@henrylansing9734 As I recall, this was part of what the Reformation was all about.
@@newgeorge sorry I don't really see your point here
Such a difficult topic to start nevertheless complete so well, thank you so much for your guidance Father, everything you said made so much sense, I with every Catholic could watch this.
Picked up a lot of practical understanding on infallibility being matters of all people in all places/situations. Thank you and God Bless you...
I find it very conflictive when people argue that the mass should be in Latin . I once heard this story of these men and these tongues of fire that came from heaven and they being from one nation, miraculously spoke the tongues of all the people around . When we listen to the mass in the vernacular we can better understand, appreciate , and participate which IS what we should be doing . Listening in Latin and not understanding anything would be a real problem , what teaching would I leave with if I didn’t understand a single thing. It sounds very nice but if I can’t understand what’s the use, my mind is not agile enough to learn Latin at my age.
MrKev1664 I respect your opinion , have you ever missioned ? Have you ever visited the sick ? How do you tell someone about Gods love for them , how do you explain the scriptures ? Well anyways , if you spend all the time of worship staring at the book and trying to follow along , you are not worshipping, your just trying to understand what they just said . Latin was first used because Catholic means universal , so the church fathers deemed Latin as the universal language . But when we go to church we should be able to understand what we are saying to give it the meaning that it deserves. You said the mass is for God, we should know and mean what we are saying not just repeating sounds that mean nothing to us . And no one speaks Latin , they recite Latin , pretty sure the congregation doesn’t leave and everyone keeps talking in Latin .
And another thing I have noticed from people who do attend Latin mass ... they say it all sounds so beautiful and reverent , the music is so spiritual . So are they going to seek forgiveness or a stronger union with God or to see a show .
Sometimes people complain about the Novus Ordo because they have the opportunity to chose where to attend a Latin mass , this is not the case in many places. There are places, like where I live, that we are lucky to have a priest once every two months, so you are all blessed. We can not chose , yet we must do the work of the church, we visit the poor and provide what we can , we give classes and we have holy hours . Worship is how we live our lives following what Jesus asked us to do , we give testimony with our actions. To follow Christ is to do as he taught . So getting back to this Latin mass , well if you are so blessed to be able to chose where to go , do so. And I do consider that many who attend in Latin answer robotically because they don’t really speak Latin .
@@MrKev1664 Thank you for all the blessings and i wish you the same. The people i talk about are others on youtube who say that if its not a Latin mass, they will not go. If you are happy and content with the way you are living your Faith, i am happy for you. As per my first statement, that I find it conflictive, I stand by what i said, I find more people arguing about which mass is better, than people talking about going out to mission and take the WORD to those who have not heard it. There are also so many arguing about Vatican 2 and other things, We must first remove the log in our eye before telling our neighbor to remove the speck he has in his. These people look to divide the church and sadly they are succeeding . Love thy neighbor but love thy enemy even more.
@@MrKev1664 Goodness, I wonder where you get your information from. There are MORE Catholics now than ever before, especially in countries like China and Russia. They celebrate mass in the vernacular and it has borne fruit. And i must say that you have inadvertently proven my point, the way you articulated your answer you just insinuated that anyone attending a Novous Ordo mass is wrong, and with that statement you have contributed in sowing doubt into the mind of anyone who is following this thread, thus dividing . This is my complaint, and a also a reason why atheist are made, we spend more time complaining about which form of the mass is "right" than teaching our brethren about Gods love and forgiveness. Why do people insist on blaming Vatican II for less people in church, when even the protestant churches lost a lot of faithful to New Age. With this reply I close my participation, because sadly you proved my point.
I'm a reform Jew and we do the liturgy in both Hebrew and english. The vernacular language here where I live and I feel like you can do a mass in both Latin and the vernacular wherever the mass is being done.
Well thought out, well resented!
Well done!
Very well explained, Father. Thanks!
I think Fr. Casey misrepresents what Pope Pius V did.
Before his time there were several different liturgies being used. Pope Pius V harmonised the liturgy in the entire Latin Church to the liturgy of Rome. Note that he exempted liturgies older than 200 years (there were about 4 of them). This indicates that most diviant liturgies were younger then 200 years. New liturgies were springing up and Pope Pius V made an end to that. The wording suggests a sense of urgency.
What he didn't do is make the missal immutable. He just abolished the use of other missals than the Roman missal. The missal was updated several times since, to change the wording of certain prayers, to insert feast days, to reshuffle the ranking of feast days. That sort of thing. That's not contrary to what Pope Pius V did. All these changes didn't change a thing to the essence of the liturgy.
The change into the Novus Ordo is _much_ more radical than anything done earlier. Anyone who has seen both a Novus Ordo Mass and a Tridentine Mass will see immediately that these are different things. Suggesting that Novus Ordo is part of organic evolution and not really different from earlier updates to the missal is in my opinion absurd.
Some things to consider as well: none of the "revisions" after Pope St. Pius V changed the actual words of the Ordinary, or the words of the Seasons. The idea that Quo Primum was "just another law" is undermined by Pope St. Pius X's changes when he changed the rubrics, giving Sundays throughout the year a higher "de facto" ranking...while still retaining their classification as semi-doubles.
Even the Modernist Josef Jungmann admitted that nothing actually changed from 1570 to 1955...
This video is interesting but misses two key points:
#1. The "Missal of Pius V" is actually a restoration of the Traditions of Holy Mother Church as expressed in the Liturgy. The main point of Quo Primum is to protect this Tradition, and anathematizes any derivation from it. The four marks of the Holy Catholic Church is that it is One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic. The Holy Liturgy comes to us from the Apostles, and no pope can change the Holy Traditions. (The pope is free, of course, to add prayers to the liturgy, but cannot abrogate or derogate that which has been received.) The Latin Rite is the Liturgy of St Peter. All of the Eastern Rites are derivations of the Liturgy of St James the Less, and the Carolingian Rite (prevalent in Southern Europe until the 17th Century) is essentially the Liturgy of St James (who went to Spain). Many of the Apostolic Rites were completely run over by the Muslims as they were busy spreading Freedom and Democracy over Asia Minor, the Middle East and Saharan Africa.
#2. This video does not answer the question of the validity of the Novus Ordo. One of the most massive problems in the Novus Ordo is that the mystical separation of the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ does not occur, as the formula of Consecration for the Most Precious Blood, as it was defined by the August Council of Trent, has been altered. The phrase "Mysterium Fidae" no longer refers back to the fruits of the Passion but in the Novus Ordo now refers to a variety of responses contained in the Missal recited just after the "consecration" of the Precious Blood. This is a substantial derogation from the Traditional Meaning and suffices to invalidate the rite as per the 23rd (I believe) session of the August Council of Trent.
LOL....The Church fathers of ancient times have the great Freedom to create their own Liturgy....Just like the Maronite Liturgy invented by St. Maron.... This Maronite Liturgy is part of the EXCEPTION in Quo Primum....Maronites don't need to be Latin....So basically Latin IS NOT a Universal liturgy...If it's not Universal and has exceptions , then it is not Infallible document...
@@krishyyfan5153
The Church is a mystery. The Greek Rites are not equal to the Latin- that has been made abundantly clear many times. No record is extant of any Church Father "creating" his own liturgy. Rather, the Church Fathers always insisted on the perfect preservation in humility of what had been handed down.
Quo Primum made exceptions EXACTLY BECAUSE such liturgies as the Maronite had an established Tradition in the time of its promulgation.
Regards.
@@whitewolf1298 LOL...really??...you don't believe that Maronite Liturgy was invented by a Church father??... It is obvious by the name itself...MARONITE Liturgy because it was created by ST. Maron when he went to Lebanon....LOL...do your research and google the Maronite liturgy....LOL...
And STOP acting like a racist Latin fanatic....All rites in the Catholic church are EQUAL....There is no such thing as LAtin being superior....
@@krishyyfan5153
St Maron was a contemporary and friend of St John Chrysostom. Here is what he thought of Tradition:
“'SO THEN, brethren, stand fast, and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word, or by Epistle of ours’ (2 Th. 2:15). Hence it is manifest, that they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition, seek no farther.”
Both St Maron and St John would have recoiled from your thinking.
Many church rites are associated with a Doctor (such as the Ambrosian Rite). This is not because they were the authors of the ceremonies, but because they embellished them with chants and prayers of their own. But the core was handed down from the Apostles.
@@whitewolf1298 LOL...really??....you follow tradition??
And yet you spit with your saliva on the tradition of Receiving communion with hand...??...St. John Chrysostom was a witness of communion with hand...
"Tell me, would you choose to come to the Sacrifice with unwashen hands? . . . do you come with soiled soul, and thus dare to touch it? And yet the hands hold it but for a time, whereas into the soul it is dissolved entirely.
"
-----(St. John Chrysostom [c. 347-407], Homily 3 on Ephesians)
Father, I’m ignited with fire of the Holy Spirit by your clear yet sensitive discussion on such challenging issue that faces our churches today. I love how the Novus Ordo invites a wide spectrum faith - from beginners to mature, liberals to conservative. But I adore the reverence and disciple of the Latin Mass. To me personally, the Latin rite is the summit of my faith journey where I was allowed to dig deeper in my faith in Christ. It’s not enough for me anymore to just go to one mass. I need both. I hope I’m not committing sin so I just take my communion at the Latin Mass.
There is reverence and discipline in the new ordo
Interesting video. As a confessional Lutheran and one interested in all things liturgical, it’s interesting how the Lutheran liturgy has largely retained many features of the pre-Vatican II Mass that Roman Catholics have not seen or heard mainstream in decades or centuries. Ad orientum altars, rails for reception, the chanted introit, the salutation before the collects, for example. Also, many parishes opt for the older one-year lectionary with the traditional Sundays’ names and introit. For example, this Sunday would be Quasimodo geniti Sunday, and Advent I would be Ad Te Levavi.
The Lutherian “rite” was begun by luthier, after he broke away from the Catholic Church , married a breakaway nun, and caused much harm to the church, along with henry 8
@@ronaldmessina4229 My troll, the comment was meant to raise some points about Lutherans retaining many of the pre-V2 liturgical elements that Novus Ordo Roman Catholics might find interesting.
It makes me sad to hear that some Lutheran churches are more Catholic than some Catholic churches. Thank you for the insight. I know there is a BROAD spectrum of things that happen at the various Lutheran churches.
I'm so happy my church still does TLM
@@manny75586 It definitely seems to be a common phenomenon among all Western Christians - this tension between making worship more appealing to the unchurched by mimicking aspects of pop culture, versus making worship more heavenly to all of the senses. I can appreciate the evangelical motives of the former, but I personally prefer the latter. In my experience, when people are truly seeking God, they are often drawn to the “other-worldliness” and holiness in the reverent liturgical practices.
@@manny75586 Also - to your point about the broad array of practices among the various Lutheran Churches, I agree. I am part of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, which is theologically conservative and takes traditional stances in the culture, such as pro-life efforts, promotion of the natural family structure, etc. Not to be confused with the more liberal bodies that make up the Lutheran World Federation.
But novus ordo give so much scandals... Like liturgy abuse.
Not i you actually do it *PROPERLY*
@@crowbirdryuell problem is that 97% don't do it properly and bishops/directors of liturgy don't correct them
I have never attended a Traditional Latin Mass before but would very much like to one day. That being said, I have gained a tremendous amount of consolation and spiritual strength from attending the Novus Ordo mass and receiving the holy Eucharist (on the tongue) The Novus Ordo, while not perfect, is valid, but hopefully one day soon it will be replaced and the Tridentine mass returned in its place.
Amen!
Very fair comment. I feel similar.
Your pious wishes. Catholic Church has many rites and will change them as needed. Christ is present in any liturgical form. The best is to take Body and Blood each time one can.
You will love the TLM. Changed my life.
Very informative. When I was in theological studies it wasn't an issue for me that there were changes, just that the pace and sweep of the changes were overboard. I don't think the people making such profound changes realized how a lot of the faithful were going to react, which was negative. I don't think the changes that came about were what the bishops intended at the Council.
Thank you for this important teaching
My parish practices the Novus Ordo, in a very solemn way, with lots of moments of silence to prepare ourselves to what is following, and it's wonderful. And when I see the amount of people flocking to get baptism here, i think it's partly tied to this. We have the luck to have two outstanding priests with us.
you are fortunate! I came into the Church in the same type of Church. After moving to another state, sadly some of what I've observed is abominable, i.e. using a hand pumped spray bottle for sprinkling holy water.
@@peskyjesuit9021 Damn.... I saw some very questionable things outside my parish as well.
You are insane.
Can you add subtitles please , I would like to translate this? Thanks!
You can select the automatic caption on youtube videos.
@@juanperez2006 bad translation for some terminology.
Fixed.
@@BreakingInTheHabit tnx father, so nice of you!!
The problem with the Nuvos Ordo is that it was change after V2 was closed - not by the magistrate.
It was the fulfillment of a direct command of the council.
I forget where I heard it, (sometime in the last week or so) but there was a papal exhortation if not encyclical that said that the current Pope, when making statements ex Cathedra takes precedence any previous statements. Can someone find that?
Are you seriously comparing minor changes (that add beauty to the liturgy), to the complete destruction of tradition that happened in the 60’s!? It’s just not the same thing. Liturgy was completely erased.
Thank you, there has a lot of people here on CZcams recently saying the new mass isn't valid nor is receiving communion in the hand.
Thank you...highly informative... Blessings
I like your videos. Even as a non Christian I admire how you breake down these topics and and then build them back up.
Read "Work of Human Hands" by Father Anthony Cekada. RIP Fr. Cekada.
He was in grave error. Like all Sedevacantists, he always questioned the post-Vatican II Church and the Protestant Churches but never had a leg to stand on when it came to defending the Sedevacantist position against the Eastern Orthodox. Orthodoxy is never even thought of, let alone mentioned among Sedevacantists. To them, it's only as if 3 groups exist: Trad "True" Catholics, False post V2 Catholics, and then Protestants (lumped together with every other religion).
That’s because Orthodoxy isn’t even in the question. It is so obviously wrong. We do not need to concern ourselves with those who reject papal authority and deny original sin.
@@finlaystovell7671 But you have consistently rejected papal authority since 1958, as well as the authority of cardinals and bishops. If your Church does not allow divorce, you even have less of a right to divorce your pope.
@@frankpontone2139 No, we have not at all rejected Papal authority. The exact thing is that these men CANNOT have been true Popes due to their subscription to something that wasn’t the Catholic faith (the Vatican II religion). They can’t receive authority from Christ, neither can any of these cardinals or bishops. It’s that simple.
My priest had denied me communion
Bcuz I was kneeling. Disgusting
Brilliant, Dear Father Casey Cole🎄
the only church in my town does not offer TLM, is there anything i can do?
The alterations were for feasts no changes in the structure, language, positions of the priests etc...the Mass indeed wasn't change prior to V2.
Also the words of consecration were change. "For all and not for many"
Very ecumenical eh?
So they even changed after V2 the words of Our Lord
Sad thing, in Liturgy as in Catechesis as in theology as in etc., the vast majority of Catholics, and even clergy know very little of Catholicism prior to Vatican II. Cardinal Ratzinger warned that many were trying to make V2 into a super-Council that dwarfed all others. His assessment was prophetic. Even Paul VI stated that V2 was a pastoral Council that did not intend to concern itself with doctrine or refuting theological error. But to address the pastoral landscape and rather ineffectively at that
Very good! What about the local priests that don't follow the missal? There's a few around here that are WAY off. Just watched one where the priest didn't even pray the Offertory AT ALL! Can't be right, right? Thanks
What was the form of the Mass celebrated before Pius V?
It depended on the region. There were many rites prior to 1571.
Interesting video. Very good points for sure, but what if the Novus Ordo is not even following the directives of Vatican 2? For example, article 36 in the constitution of the sacred liturgy states: " Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites." Furthermore, Vatican 2 doesn't appear to bind anything, merely offering suggestions for renewal.
While it is nice to use Latin, their comes a point in time when It just pointless to do so as no one understands it any longer.
@@coldforgedcowboy I think that may seem true, but after awhile you get to know what the Latin means just by following along in your missal. For example, I can hear the Our Father in Latin and it transposes in my mind to English or to what I understand that it means.
@@coldforgedcowboy Even if that were so, it would appear that removing Latin from the Liturgy contradiction of the letter of Vatican II which was adamant in the inclusion of Latin. It seems bizarre to me that defenders of the NO as commonly implemented, at least where I live in the United States (only vernacular, no chant) can also portray themselves as defenders of the Second Vatican Council when this is explicitly contradicts the letter of SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM.
@@DigitalDummies ... Ecumenical Councils can only define Dogma's (defined truths), liturgical practices addressed at councils tend to be a more dynamic thing guided by the Holy Spirit as Bishops attend to the needs of their individual dioceses. Their is no point using Latin in a diocese if no one can speak or understand it, that would be fetishism.
@@coldforgedcowboy No dogma was defined at Vatican II...
Liturgical practices are not the determinations of local diocese. The very video we're commenting on says that's anathema both in the old liturgy and in the new. No singular priest or bishop has the right to change the form of the liturgy. The fr in this video literally spends the first part of the video talking about this.
The fact is, the liturgy was reformed with the raison d'etre of the guidelines expressed in the council. It was used as a mandate. The goal was to increase participation of the laity in the divine liturgy. It even defined guidelines that affirmed the importance the uniquely Latin trappings of the mass (chant, language, music, etc). It said that a committee be made to update the liturgy to match these guidelines in the Roman church.
The resulting missal did not take these guidelines seriously and has made it too easy to ignore them while administering the mass. This has become incredibly obvious.
Great explanation and insight, thank you. First time I have heard anyone go into such thorough historical explanation so makes perfect sense. Grew up attending Latin Mass then the transition into the Vernacular. For many of us it was a night and day change. Finally we could understand and participate more fully and see how the priest performed the consecration. In a world where a vast majority of people are illiterate hearing the liturgy in their language is truly a blessing. Prayer for the Church to be one.
Merci Beaucoup Always!! Xoxo
I have been missing your videos Fr. Casey.