Monk Subclasses Ranked: D&D
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
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If you would like to know how I calculate damage or how baseline damage is determined, I go through it in this video:
• How To Calculate Avera...
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
9:34 Monks
28:16 Mercy
37:03 Shadow
42:26 Astral Self
48:52 Drunken Master
53:08 Four Elements
56:53 Kensei
1:01:35 Long Death
1:04:34 Open Hand
1:07:09 Sun Soul
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Not that it would change anything, but I'd love for wotc staff to see this.
If they aren’t watching this kind of content, they’re a lost cause
@@TwinSteel why is being interested in what the community has to say a lost cause?
wotc are probably trying to think of another way to make wizard better after creating the artificer to give the wizard everything they lacked in a 1 level dip.
@@Fangoros reading comprehension
In my opinion, monks are alright / pretty good if the rest of the table isnt using feats either. I'm still looking for the feats that will make the monk better - maybe unarmed fighting style or blindsight fighting style? but taking a feat slows your MAD progression so much, so... still looking...
Funny thing, I got my 10 year old son to start playing d&d this year. Just the two of us. He decided to play a monk, so I decided to play an Alchemist because I didn't want to outshine him. It worked, and he loves d&d now! He is looking forward to playing a Sorcerer next! =)
You know you love someone when you voluntarily play an Alchemist for them.
omg you did it. You are my hero and role model.
@@harjutapa apparently everyone thinks alchemist is bad.
Monks in Tier 1 aren't that far below the curve, much like how two-weapon fighting holds up until Extra Attack is a thing.
Lol nice, I like to play support characters because I tend to go overboard when I play damage classes
Commending WotC for honesty in their wording of ""when" you go down" was the funniest part of a hilarious and (as always) informative video.
1:03:30 That is the joke that killed it all! Goddammit!
That killed me kkkkkkkk
When your monk goes down?
*Ooooohhhh mmyyyyyy*
After seeing Mercy Monk get a D, I was like, "Damn this is not going to get any better, is it?"
Nope. D is not a terrible rank, and Mercy can be made carefully to be effective, but you need to be really focused on every build decision. (I'll be releasing a Mercy build later this month)
@@TreantmonksTemple looking forward to the video 👍
@@TreantmonksTemple Yay!
@@TreantmonksTemple that's why I was talking about bumping up all the tiers' NAMES. As long as S gets renamed SS/Zero/Banned, every other tier can move up 1 letter and they would make a lot more sense with your given definitions. The 5th tier being a passing grade sounds more like a C to me
Mercy is a great subclass, but when you bolt it on to a weak class it can only do so much
Chris: Monks suck. Here's why.
Everyone: Stop. S S S Stop. He's already dead!
After watching this video, and seeing all the comments making fun of Monk players, I think I might back out of the group my best friend plays in.
They said it would be fun to play a monk because I could be the martial artist and have fun roleplaying. But if I am going to be made fun of for something I find fun? And the community as a whole will make fun of me as an "Inside joke", I will just tell them to kick rocks.
@@j.r.6718 nah, monk can be really fun to play. This whole channel is about character optimization for battle. DnD is not only about battles. You certainly can have a good time playing a monk. Also these overviews only cover up to level 12 and monks really start to get better at higher levels. So if you are playing epic story up to lvl 20 (or even beyond) you'll definitely have a lot of fun. Also, your friends may not be even aware about the whole... monk mockery thing. It's not like every DnD player is into character optimization. And even if you are, you can still make the most out of the monk. You'll just need to be careful, attentive... And look at this angle: if the character is rated as the S-tier, is it actually any challenge to be good at it? Wouldn't it be great to take somebody from lower tier and then have a blast with him? There's a reason people like to play at higher difficulties. Your character can be weak, but you can be smart with it!
@@j.r.6718 If that's all it takes to break you, then good.
You can use the time not playing DnD to grow thicker skin.
Re: "Stunning Strike never gets better" ... I'd argue it gets worse. My impression has been that Constitution saves seem to scale faster than save-DC.
Ah too true. Almost half of everybody can hardly pass up Resilience Con by level 16
@@youtubeseagull well, I meant monster saves, not PCs. But also that.
Yeah, there's really nothing short of humanoid casters with low enough Con saves to warrant stunning strike.
RAW not that much really, few monsters get proficiency in any saves except for Boss monsters. In practice DMs that have their monsters trashed by Stunning Strike pick monsters with good Con saves from then on.
@@richardwhaler8717 www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/anxn5e/average_monster_save_bonuses_by_cr_mtof_not/
Proficiency not required, Con and Str saves scale the hardest just because "bigger == higher CR" and also "bigger == higher Str and Con"
At level 1, average(mean) Con save for a CR1 opponent is ~1, vs a DC of ~12 (Wis isn't your attack stat). Monster saves on an 11.
At level 20, it's more like 10 vs. a DC of ~18? Monster saves on a 8? If you bump your Wisdom to 20 at the expense of Dex, then the monster saves on a 9?
That still went backwards.
Drink every time Chris says "So this is a bad feature, let me tell you why"
That would kill anyone who isn't Russian. Even sailors can't drink that much, that fast.
My liver would like to ask you why you hate it so much.
And this is why Im drunk! 😂🤪
Thissshhh whas a horri... holli... hobbible..... badb ithea.
I would, but Drunken Master didn't make getting drunk sound all that appealing.
"... at high levels you can replace that d10 damage... with a d10...". Chris hating on monks is my comfort food
At the end of mercy you think "oh no, this is the high water mark...". I still like the direction they went with it to have evolving abilities that were less of a ki tax.
Stuff costs the same no matter what level you are, the ability that costs 1 ki point at level 3, still costs 1 ki point at level 11, and now you have unlimited ki, so much ki that it is hard to use it all before your next short rest.
@@AhsokaTanoTheWhiteno one has evwr thought that about monks lol. Maybe your group plays very differently?
I really thought this was going to end with "DnDs for everyone... but monks".
It does. Everytime he says it. He just does not say it. But we know he does.
In the monks video he said after the "have some fun" bit that he will because he's not playing monks.
Four Elements Monk really should have just been another Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster but with Druid spellcasting and using their Ki to enhance/blend the spells in some way with their combat.
I was thinking that too. Four Elements might have been okay as a third-caster. Actually having spell slots for spells would free up the Ki for the core class features too.
Ki as sorcery points on a divine half caster would be very compelling. Too bad Wizards keeps putting their spiciest designers on CHA casters. Actually, I'd love to see who designed what...
@@nonamenoname1133 Yeah they seem to have WILDLY different levels of involvement and thought on different classes and subclasses.
I played a Four Elements Monk up to level 16 in DnD Next.
I gave them a lot of feedback during the play test.
I was quite disappointed when they were just as bad in the PHB for 5e when it was published.
The one selling point of the Astral Self Monk: It gives the anime-enthusiast fans a Stand, if they want to make a JoJo's Bizarre Adventure character instead of a Dragon Ball Z character. Which does lead to a theory, that WotC wanted to punish players trying to make anime characters in their D&D games.
Can't you use an Echo Knight to have a Jojo Stand and not be terrible?
@@fadeleaf845 That was Matt Mercer making the subclass, not WotC (Wildemount is Mercer 'brew content), so sadly that doesn't quite hold up. Good on you for pointing it out though, I wouldn't have thought of that for sure!
@@fadeleaf845 True. I do tend to forget about Wildemount, because it's so rarely allowed at the tables I play at.
@@benjoffe948 Other ideas are Pact of the Blade for stands like Anubis or The Emperor, Swarmkeeper Ranger for something like Bad Company... heck, Mercy Monk to get Crazy Diamond!
Now that I think of it, I think that theory holds quite a bit of water.
It really, really bothers me that monks get a d8 hit die. They have a bunch of other problems but on top of it being a weird nerf, its also a huge flavor fail.
In martial arts movies and in the real life warrior-monk that they take inspiration from, a point is made that the body is sharpened to the human limit, including feats of CONSTITUTION like meditating under a waterfall or weeks of grueling training.
But would a d12 hit die be enough to save the Monk?
@@Dennis-vh8tz A d12 hit die and adding prof bonus to Ki pool maybe.
@@brettmajeske3525 prof to ki is peanuts. why not just double it, and then its a big number players dont want to count. It's starting to sound like ki should be banned and subclasses shoudl be homebrewed.
@@brettmajeske3525 With respects to ki, I personally prefer the idea making some features prof uses of features per either short or long rest, and ki as the general resource for when those limited resources run out. Things like stunning strike, flurry of blows, patient defense, elemental disciplines, shadow arts, etc. That way, you can use each feature at least twice, and you can spend ki as you need. Step of the Wind should absolutely be free though.
@@youtubeseagull Adding Prof Bonus doubles KI pool at low levels without it becoming overwhelming at high levels. The idea is to fix a problem without swinging the pendulum too far the other way. Fifth ed is all about resource economy; getting rid of Ki points is like getting rid of spell slots. IT changes the game too much. The problem with Monk is not the idea of Ki points, it is just that the resource is not balanced for actual game play.
We have a saying at our table, whenever a battlemaster uses its maneuvers or whenever a paladin add its Improved Divine Smite dice, we say "add your monk to the damage".
When the monk reachs a 1d8 with its unarmed strike, the paladin adds that dice to any hit he makes. Let that sink in for a moment.
Lol and yeah that's not even a strong feature for the paladin. No one says wait until 11th level in paladin to do all the extra damage. 1d8 by that point is hardly anything
After not enough ki points, damage scaling with monks really upsets me. Heck even following the same progression as Prof Bonus would be bad, and they can't even get that!
Improved divine smite is fairly good.
@@chrisvelo2595 I disagree. Dueling stays strong. This is slightly stronger than that, 1d8 on every hit. It will add up easily
@@texteel By level 11 I don't believe that 2d8 for the entire round is really that strong. That would be 9dmg on average multiply that with an average 70% chance to hit and it goes down to an average if 6.3 damage a round. Now that isn't nothing but we were talking about the monk here. What I was pointing out was that the paladin gets this as extra free damage at level 11 while the monk got their unarmed attack from a d6 to a d8. Meaning that while paladin in already ahead by divine smite, auras, spells, and fighting styles they also get more damage at this specific level for basically free. And no one talks about this feature for paladins at all, it's one of the weaker features but monks getting just a little more damage feels amazing.
It really feels like Monk was designed by someone who assumed people would take a short or long rest between every combat where other classes were built around the 6-8 encounters with 2 short rests per long rest.
Or a person who assumed that feats being optional meant some dms would not allow them. Monks look much better if no one else is using feats.
@@fasterpet Yep, I should have added that too.
You could short rest after every encounter while still meeting the DMG guidelines. The 6-8 encounters number is based on XP value; you can instead run 3 difficult encounters with the same xp value of those 6-8 instead, as the DMG instructs.
@@GildedTongues Short rests are an hour long (or more) and you can't take more than 2 per Long Rest. So no, you can't just take one after every encounter and still do 6-8 encounters a day, and given the 60 minute duration, in games where you are doing multiple encounters in a given day, they are incredibly risky,
If your defense is that "what if it's just 3 really hard encounters a day", now you are severely limiting the kind of games a Monk can be useful in and it requires the Monk to know in advance how many (and the type) of encounters they are going to experience in a given day to know if they can burn all their Ki per fight. It's a pretty weak argument.
00+++q
I knew Monks weren’t a great option but I have to admit that I hadn’t paid enough attention to understand your vehement dislike for them. Now, wow, I get the picture!
Thank you for this.
"This one stained the pages of the Players Handbook!" LOL I'm dying here.
"Let's say, for some reason, the enemy mage decided to cast Dominate Person on you... THE MONK... for some reason... Maybe they mistook you for a spellcaster because you weren't wearing armor."
STOP! Stop! He's already dead...
Also I'd always read that feature and assumed that you could use this regardless of effects that would otherwise control you. I mean, focusing your mind sounds like it shouldn't be blocked by a body controlling ability, although I agree that's RAW. Do you think the intent was otherwise?
To be fair, dominate person on a monk isn't a bad idea. Monks suck, don't get me wrong, but they largely suck against monsters. Stunning the wizard tends to be a lot easier than stunning a high con monster, and then they lose their concentration on a spell.
@@godminnette2 Any wizard worth their spells is going to have a high con save, because they have to have a high con save so that they don't lose concentration on their spells everytime they take damage.
@@logicseeker3770 they have warcaster for that
@@Vogue69 Most wizards usually have warcaster, resilience con, and a fairly high con score for that.
@@logicseeker3770 I mean I wouldn’t make that assumption. They usually choose between Resilient and War Caster before boosting their Intelligence, and War Caster will serve them better at low levels. If they’re a straight classed wizard they could have a decent CON, but a multiclassed wizard will have to spread out their ability scores more.
That said, Artificer-wizard is a different story.
Your dedication to correcting errors that happen and being clear about when it happens, especially in series like this is greatly appreciated.
“When you are reduced to 0 hit points rather than if” You made me laugh so hard!
I would like to pile onto how garbage stillness of mind is. Particularly for the sake of hypnotic pattern, crown of madness and similar spells. Hypnotic pattern charms AND incapacitates, being incapacitated you cannot take actions, so you can't even use your ability to clear the charm. Crown of madness, you "MUST" use your action to attack the closest creature on each of your turns. Similarly, for all the dominate spells this little addendum makes the skill totally useless "the creature takes only the Actions you choose, and doesn't do anything that you don't allow it to do." Great right! Effectively this entire skill is to maybe break charm person if the charmer is lazy.
The cherry on top of all of this, is your wisdom save is already one of your best saves, so you're already likely to not be charmed and if you are, you will probably always break it on a natural roll anyways before you ever get the chance to use this ability.
And compare this to Psi Warrior lvl 10 feature - Guarded mind. I know it costs a limited resource, but it is 100% better!
I think specifics rules overwrite general rules, and I'd say spell rules are more general than subclass abilities.
To be honest, it's so bad that I assume most tables don't play it RAW because nobody would read it and assume that's how it's meant to play.
In regards to Monk, I feel like it’s worth noting that Dedicated Weapon and proficiency swap can be used in tandem to, in practice, give you proficiency in any versatile martial weapon. For Mercy Monk and a few others, they’d basically have damage comparable to other martials. For Mercy in particular, you get this damage in addition to having your whole subclass ride on your Bonus Action (with which you can’t do a weapon attack anyway).
This potential has to boost it at least a little.
@@saberswordsmen1 I am curious about the Rogue doing less damage. As far as I see it is doing more damage, except when Flurry comes into play, and even then it is only behind at a few levels.
New Player: Martial arts, sounds cool. So I get to do special strikes and kicks, dishing out all kinds of different effects, nice. And I could do cool trips, joint locks, choke holds, eye poking and other dirty fighting stuff, and I cou...
DM: No, you get to punch. Once. With moderate force.
I've got to say Battle master dice based effects like trip, shove etc could be good on a Monk.
@@killcat1971 Spend Ki instead of dice and use martial arts die progression?
@@Dennis-vh8tz Could work, the issue, as pointed out is EVERYTHING uses Ki, a common house fix is to do things like "You may dash or disengage as a bonus action" and " You may spend a point of Ki as a reaction to enter the dodge stance till the beginning of your next round, if you do so in reaction to an attack you force the attacker to re-roll and take the lower of the two."
Just like artificer uses magic instead of inventions, though i understand the artificer is fundamentally more difficult to design.
The Battlemaster, especially after Tashas, is better for that Monk concept than the class itself which is so weird.
Way of the long death is one of those subclasses that are super honest. All of those feats "when you kill you get temp hit points" and "you fear everyone" just show how WotC don't think that ANYONE would play with you if you had a monk, so they made a subclass for campaigns ran with the dm + 1 player. Very impressed.
I knew Mercy was going to be a D rank at best, but I'm just thankful there's at least one Monk that's worth playing at an optimized table.
It's a shame Astral Monk is not nearly as well designed, they can't even give me hope for even more decent Monk subclasses.
make up your own!
@@youtubeseagull Oh, trust me, I've tried my hand at making homebrew before.
Never again....
@@youtubeseagull I already made a revision for Four Elements and I'm gonna make a new subclass.
Monks: *exist*
Chris: I’m about to end this man’s whole career.
Monks: exists
Chris: And I took that as an insult.
58:22 Woah woah woah there, buddy! You don't just get a tool proficiency, you get CALLIGRAPHY!
Practically ascent to godhood right there.
Real talk though I turned around two bad situations with an impassioned speech followed by a beautifully painted sign. I somehow eeked out Calligraphy for a bunch of things. Because I watched Hero too many times.
@@Ebonzai Fair enough! I just heard that bit and mostly thought, "Boy howdy, I'm sure someone made a reference to Tulok the Barbrarian's running jo-... incredibly valid stance on Calligraphy already!"
And since a glance didn't find it, I just made the world I wanted to live in!
a note, Hands of Harm can be used on the normal attack action unarmed strikes. so you can hand of harm once and hand of healing twice at level 11 during your turn.
but doing that most likely means leaving an enemies reach and taking an attack of opportunity right? Depending but... half the time and then probably being a bad healer who just sits somewhere safe dropping mass heals?
You're right, but it also costs twice the Ki points of using one or both of the unarmed strikes from flurry to get hand of harm (since hitting isn't guranteed), and the optinal extra one afterwards.
I have a player who absolutely loves monks, so I have homebrewed numerous items and class changes to make her effective. This includes a gi that makes her immune to crits, hand straps that give her a magic bonus to unarmed attack and damage rolls and allow her to regain half her ki points once per day as a bonus action, a force based flame tongue short sword, and allowing her to use her wholeness of body once per short rest, among other things. The worst part is, all this doesn't make her OP, just comparable. Unfortunately, she has been very disappointed playing monks with other groups.
I played a Monk up to level 16 in DnD Next.
I gave them a lot of feedback during the play test.
I was quite disappointed when they were just as bad in the PHB for 5e when it was published.
All of this could have been done so much better even before the PHB was sent to the printers.
It seems like the designers were putting a mechanical cost on flavor when doing monk. "Ah, running around and kicking is cool, and cool is worth the price."
That's effectively the problem, they gave the monk a supernatural resource in limited quantity, and then used It as fuel for natural actions that should be explained by the monk's training
I've always been under the impression that they designed the monk to be able to rush in and kill/break the concentration of the enemy casters, but didn't check to see if they actually gave them all the skills to pull it off
The most important takeaway: In a non-optimized party with the sword-and-board fighter and the wizard upcasting frost fingers (waits for Treantmonk slap) the monk does fine. So don’t worry about criticizing monks in non-optimized groups.
The issue is that the monk has to optimize in order to be on the same power level as those unoptimized characters, lol
Don't forget their cleric, casting Cure Wounds instead of Bless.
@@harjutapa There’s really not a huge difference between an optimized and unoptimized monk. The class’s floor and ceiling are absurdly close together.
@@Dennis-vh8tz Inflict Wounds upcast to 6th level
@@harjutapa ... Unoptimized games don't CARE about power. Usually they're more about roleplay and character flavor, not efficiency in combat.
Thank you for making this video, Chris. I imagine that it wasn't easy on you, having to go in depth and tabulate just how aweful Monks are in 5th edition.
I don't know, a good rant can be cathartic.
@@TreantmonksTemple You clearly had some fun with this one, had me rolling at parts.
"Stunning Strike! Stunning Strike! I know, I know..." oh man I was dying. Honestly just getting into D&D recently playing my first character and pretty glad I didn't go with a monk after all that since they are up there flavor wise with what I'd like as a character. Nice that you put everything in perspective, and I know there are ways to kind of work with a DM maybe to fix some things. It is a shame that it has to be like that, especially after these subsequent releases still fail to make a powerful subclass even with all these other subclasses out there to compare to other features and designs.
@@TreantmonksTemple I played a Sun Soul Monk up to level 16 in DnD Next.
I gave them a lot of feedback during the play test.
I was quite disappointed when they were just as bad in the PHB for 5e when it was published.
I really don't understand how they didn't improve them from 3rd edition, where they were considered just as bad.
In a non-optimized group of players (7 people in the party total). I'm playing an Open Hand monk, in our homebrew campaign we are regularly fighting spell caster mooks with spell caster BBEGs. In this, and only this instance, Stunning Strike and the Open Hand Techniques has been quite useful as our DM is not an optimizer and 'mages are squishy'. Also the 'lose reaction' feature of Flurry of Blows has been good for denying counterspells against our two wizards and our sorcerer. BUT even with this said, I am by no means, in any: way, shape, or form. Doing any better than any other player. I feel it has been good for me, the only optimizer of my group of friends.
And man, as someone who liked monks in 3.5e it breaks my heart to see them done so badly in 5e. (Not that they were really all that better in 3.5e for that matter...)
I played a Four Elements Monk up to level 16 in DnD Next.
I gave them a lot of feedback during the play test.
I was quite disappointed when they were just as bad in the PHB for 5e when it was published.
I really hoped they would improve them over the 3.5e version, and played one in DnD Next to give them feedback to that effect. But then we still got this mess instead.
Oh no wonder he started a new showcase before continuing this series... the monk was next on his list! I was worried he was going to draw this out but of course he needed a break before doing his most despised class!
What prevents this video from being too sad is Chris being extra-funny when he's savaging Monks.
I honestly think that a good way to fix monk would just be to say that you can use most of the subclass features X number of times per long rest and then you can spend ki to do it more often. Then you can still do cool things without running out of ki and yeah they may not be as good as others but you can still do them for free.
I also think that four elements monk could have been picked up by just making them a third caster and telling them that they can pick spells from evocation and some other school from either the druid or sorcerer spell lists. Then just give them other features at higher levels.
Still early on in the video, but on the topic of replacing weapon damage die with martial arts die, it has come in use in one of my games earlier than 11th level when we got a powerful magic dagger that had a cool rider effect, but still had the 1d4 damage die, and the monk was able to roll their martial arts die instead. Marginal improvement, but worth noting that the feature can be beneficial
Friendly and hilarious reminder that the Monk doesn't have proficiency with Daggers LMAO
@@TheAdditionalPylons Monks get proficiency with simple weapons, of which dagger is one.
I’d love to see the Monk get the treatment the Ranger got, but I don’t think it’ll ever happen. Monk needs a d10 hit die, the features need to be free and use ki to EMPOWER them (like sorcery points or maneuvers), and honestly… give them their subclass at level 1 or 2. No other martial class gets that and I think it fits thematically and mechanically for a monk.
You are a legend, sir. Any time you play at my table, your character gets the savage attacker feat for free.
New optimization request: Pure Sun Soul Monk with damage and survivability above baseline.
unarmed fighting style, only way to make monks viable at low levels.
You can get there on damage with sharpshooter and spending all your ki on focused aim, but a 1 level dip into fighter for Archery fighting style helps a lot.
Survivability--what's the survivability baseline? I don't think it would be too hard to beat the general survivability expectations for a ranged character, though--deflect missiles is pretty nice on an archer build, and most archer builds have 17 AC or so.
This would be really hard to do but I have to ask why? What character concept would this allow you to play that you couldn't achieve with another class or subclass?
I honestly feel it would be better to just take a fighter, go unarmed, and you would honestly have a better "monk" than a dedicated monk. Like just go battlemaster and you can at least manipulate something
I played a Barbarian reflavored as a Monk in a campaign - renamed "Rage" to "Battle Trance," "Reckless Attack" to "Offensuve Focus," and so on. I did, however, still use weapons and armor. Unarmored Defense is almost strictly worse than armor, and punching things is _hilariously_ worse than cleaving them with a greataxe. I called him a "Way of Steel Monk," from the "Monastery of Saint Bessemer."
Yup just dip Barbarian to get a better version of Unarmored Defense.
And, at first level, take the Unarmed Fighting fighting style to do more unarmed combat damage equal or greater than most Monks all the way up to level 16.
The whole way AC works in fifth ed doesn't quite work. Personally I think AC should be based on straight DEX (or STR for heavy armor) with armor types providing damage reduction. Unarmored Defense would then matter.
It is actually really really funny how in literally ANY DnD editions you could have made a better monk out of fighter. It looks like a common theme for such RPGs, even Pathfinder (both editions) which is not DnD, but inspired by it, have such problem. I'm really close to call it an actual anti-monk conspiracy, WTF?
I'm very surprised Stillness of Mind doesn't require ki to be honest. Did they miss to include that?
I imagine since it's an ability you use when you're fucked, plus it also uses your action, so having it cost ki would be extra cruel.
@@_zurr yeah, but that'd be on brand for 5e monk honestly
It seems like you totally miss Kensei monk’s synergy with base monk features.
With longbow, you can attack 3 times at level 5 for cost of 1 KI point - and you can turn one miss into hit - Focused aim.
When you run out of your KI, you can still attack 2 times with 1d4 bonus on each hit.
And Magic Kensei weapons - feature you say is useless? What about thrown weapon builds? This is a gem for thrown weapon characters! With 1 level of fighter and Variant Human (or custom lineage), you can throw daggers (or hand axes, javelins,…) for 1dX+DEX+4, 3 times a round, all count as magical, when you run out of KI, throw darts with 1d4 extra dmg on each hit. And dmg of all those weapons scale till it becomes d10.
And most of this works with Sharpshooter!
On top of that, as ranged character, you don’t need high AC or CON (especially with monk mobility), so there is some place for multiclassing or feats.
Kensei deserves to be one tier higher, I am sure of that!
I feel like a Kensei with sharpshooter and archery fighting style from fighting initiate might not be a bad build idea. It makes me think that the monk would greatly benefit from more ASI in their class progression.
@@mikebougiamas3418 Agreed!
In fact, monk’s mobility is fantastic for any archer - you can make sure, that no one catches you in melee.
And even when he does, you can just do 4 attacks in melee for only 1 ki.
All in all, you don’t need Crossbow expert, which is another saved ASI/feat over other archers.
I would also consider 2 levels of either Chanpion, or Battlemaster for improved offense and Archery FS.
And if you compare resources of BM and Kensei Monk, it is really similar. Lvl 14 example: Monk has 14 ki to boost attack by 2, so in total can increase his attack by 28 per short rest. Battlemaster has 5 superiority dice, each d10 (average 5.5), so in total 27.5 per short rest to add to his attack. Quite similar, isn’t it?
@@JuckiCZ Fighter's will have better health and more attacks when doing ranged attacks. They also will have a +2 to hit from the fighting style. I don't know if they can be compared favorably.
Hey, I can't figure out where the third attack ar level 5 comes from. Could you clear that up for me?
@@christianp.7675 Tasha's lets monks make a single weapon attack as a bonus action if they spend a ki during their action. At level 5 they get Extra Attack, so if they spend at least 1 ki on Focused Aim they can get 3 attacks, 2 with their action and 1 as a bonus action.
If Crossbow Master wasn't already so good this would be more impressive.
OH BOY!! I'll stop my lunch just to watch this, this is going to be way too good for me to not watch right now !
I had a player in one of my games. He saw all of the great spells and abilities the other players were getting and was upset by how limited and weak he felt in comparison. He’d run out of Ki in 2 rounds while the Spirit Guardians and the Hypnotic Pattern were getting all of the work done. In the end, he retired that monk, which was a shame because it was such a fun character from a rp perspective.
25:04 "So, let's just say the enemy mage decided to cast Dominate Person on you--THE MONK--for some reason...Maybe they mistook you for a spellcaster because you aren't wearing armor..."
This line gave me a good laugh ☝️😂
After this video, I am starting a petition to change Treantmonk's name to Treantwizard.
Good stuff Chris, looking forward to Paladins, one of my favorite classes.
Post Tasha's the best Monk is clearly just Fighter with the unarmed fighting style
get battle master with unarmed fighting style just to spite the monk
Me: Hey he's starting with the Mercy kit.
TM: It's a "D."
Me: Oh no! XD
At least D is still a passing grade
@@wyattweber9983 Mercy is the only subclass that doesn't make the chassis worse.
@@brettmajeske3525 You could argue the Mercy kit actually upgrades the monk "chassis." The mode of grades for the monk kits is an F. If we grade the monk kits on a curve Mercy is the new "S!" XD
I love the monk. It's an amazing class for showing off how accurate d&d can be to real life. Because if an unarmed, unarmoured guy gets in a fight with a Knight with full plate and a massive sword, then he is going to die. I don't care how good his training is.
And some people claim d&d isn't realistic...
Two plate clad knights with swords are about as effective against eachother as the unarmed, unarmored monk, though.
In fact, the Monk is slightly better off, since he doesn't have to drop his sword to start wrestling.
As some one who laurend some martial arts you are completely right. All of them says: you pretty much wants to surrender or try the defuse a fight. If the other guy has a weapon (even something like a bat ) you are kinda fucked. Like we can higher you chances of survival buuuuuuuut one hit whit a knife and you are done for .
I found Monk to be the perfect class for Aarakocra, since they have a heavy and medium armor restriction anyway, and the movement bonuses apply to its obscene flight speed. It might not be great, but it's a really functional way to combine a really OP race with a subtle class.
Lmao true pair the OP race with the hella under powered class
YEEEESSS FINALLY! Love this class, hate that it’s so weak, but love it anyway. Thanks for doing this, I’m aware your aren’t fond of the Monk 🙏🏼
Before I'm called a monk sympathizer, i do as a dm want to point out that stunning strike can be annoyingly effective vs certain enemies. I realize con saves are one of the easiest to pass, however, my monk player (who is currently lvl 14 kensei) will save his ki points to stunlock tough foes. All it takes is one failed save (unless they have legendary resistance) and a big bad is in a bad way. And before i get reprimanded by the internet society, i know its a cardinal sin to have one big bad, and a smart villain shouldn't ever get in range of the party, and so on. But in d&d these scenarios do show up at times. That being said, my monk player is definitely the lowest dpr of the group and has less options with dealing with encounters
As I mention in the video, Stunning strike is not a bad ability. Sometimes it works well.
Stunning strike can be a legendary resistances burner but it's hard to optimize that. Do you go for a higher dex so that you can spend ki and have them roll against your wisdom or do you raise your wis DC and count that you will hit once with your 3 attacks naturally since you don't want to spend that much ki on flurry of blows.
Some low level spells are also very effective such as Tasha's hideous laughter, command and hold person. Command being a favorite of mine since it doesn't require concentration and can burn resistances as well.
For me it's a constant pain, definately one of the better abilities.
@@saberswordsmen1 this could work but just to summon the arms takes ki. And if you fight without the arms your Dex won't be that good and you'll basically be doing nothing the whole fight
@@saberswordsmen1 I think that's why treatmonk ranked it so low in his ranking video. 1 ki point per combat automatically is a lot even if you recover on a short rest
I hadn't compared cunning action with ki until you mentioned... But damn..
Yuuuup
@@sharkforce8147 I agree...dodge is very strong as a bonus action... kinda like using a shield...which is kinda free for most martials...which can also wear armor...which the monk can't.
@@sharkforce8147 He mentions in the video why Patient Defense should not cost Ki as you sabotage your damage when you use it. That's bad enough.
The most amazing thing about Monk is wondering how the intern that designed it got it implemented by the lead developers. There's no way it was designed with the same level of game knowledge or even awareness of other classes.
I think it was designed as if feats, magic items, and multiclassing actually weren't in the game rules, then they assumed those things would benefit all characters equally. Turns out they don't at all!
@@wyattweber9983 Take a look at Ki progression. Then take a look at Sorc Points, Spell Slots, Sneak Attack, Subclasses with spellcasting, Wildshaping, ect. Those systems progress without impeding core mechanics.
They punish Monks because of a belief that earlier versions were over powered. Monk isn't bad in a high level campaign, but those are very rare. Just because a class is balanced at level 17 doesn't make it balanced earlier.
@@wyattweber9983 that's like saying they didn't play version 3.5 tho
@@brettmajeske3525 Can you cite that belief, just so I know that your premise isn't your belief projected on to the intern/designers?
As a supportive argument for your premise, which previous edition had an overpowered Monk? Admittedly, I haven't played 4th. However, 2nd ed Monk was incredibly weak and 3.x was far from overpowered. GitP's 4e tier list with Wizards as the highest tiered class and Monks near the bottom. If the premise is to make overpowered classes weak in 5e is a true premise, then why are Wizards still gods and Monks always considered one of the worst, if not the worst? I can't even find sources for confirm bias that Monks were ever overpowered, let alone on a gamebreaking level.
I'm just helping sort this out because it sounds like a conclusion based on a weak premise, with almost no real supporting argument that would organically lead to the conclusion. It makes more sense if you started with the conclusion then accepted a weak argument/premise to validate the conclusion. (Confirmation bias)
I'm playing my first monk right now, and it happened to be the way of the sun soul monk, and i've had some really good success with it since I picked up the fey touched feat and grabbed Hex with it, which I also think is a flavor win for the class as well when comparing the radiant and necrotic damage to the yin and yang. Are there things about this subclass that need to change? Yes, the range on the long range flurry of blows could be doubled since a short bow has a lot more range on it and would make the attack option a lot more useful in grindier battles. The burning hands ability could also start off with 1 ki instead of 2, which would make it way better as an option of dumping ki points right before a short or long rest, and having the same half-saving throw that fireball does for its level 11 ability would probably make it a more consistent fireball tbh and more liked universially. The level 17 ability doesn't matter as much since campaigns usually never run on long enough to reach that feature anyways, even though its really bad. That being said, even though the class doesn't add on to what the monk does best by making the ranged attacks of the subclass not combo with stunning strike, this class is better than people think it is in my opinion. This subclass gives the monk the tools to deal with its biggest weaknesses: long range and lack of area of effect damage, essentially making the fighter in this class a jack of an aggressive jack of all trades in combat, that deals a pretty relevant damage type as well. Despite what I said about the level 11 ability, it still is a solid aoe effect. At base, it deals 4 d6 in total if you attack twice with it, deals radiant damage and actually targets an ability score that many grunts you actually want to target for area of effect has: constitution. Most swarmy creatures you want to target with area of effect have a high dex score, which fireball targets as its saving throw, making it ideal for campaigns with lots of undead like in Curse of Strahd for example. The class is also a lot of fun to play as well because of the amount of flavor and coolness attached to this subclass as well in my opinion. Overall though, its a really fun class to play that covers the weaknesses of the monk pretty well and makes moments where it struggles at normally not annoying to play through. The way of the sun soul monk is better than what many people think it is.
Chris, you should know i come back to this video series all the time, i very much enjoy your thorough breakdowns and insights.
Was waiting for this, and yes it almost broke Treantmonk! So how many other tables give Monks more Ki? I run it Level + Prof bonus. I also let them bonus action dodge for free. Letting Shadow Monks to use each spell once per long rest without spending Ki helps too.
I'm not usually a homebrew person but the "Pugilist" by Benjamin Huffmann is just what Monk should be and I've started to allow it in my games as every time there's a monk player they end up feeling significantly underpowered by even level 6 or 7.
YES! I've been trying to find a GM who would allow Pugilist ever since I first saw it.
I really love the pugilist, and every GM I've shown it to has been pretty convinced, mostly because it's a fairly conservative class. The fact that it uses the monk as a chassis and reuses a lot of the monk's mechanical language means it's a bit on the weak side... but it also highlights how easily the monk could be improved; it's as simple as not making abilities conflict with each other.
Yes, it fixes so many problems and the subclasses make any race of character shine. With monk, it's like go Kensei just to be a decent archer
"the monk for some reason, maybe they thought you were a spellcaster"
big oof
This will be the best one though for the passion and flaming. Love it.
It's finally here. We've been patient (not really), but it's finally here!
this is the one we have been waiting for... will the alchemist be pushed out of last place?? (comment written before watching!)
Yes, yes it will.
@@brettmajeske3525 The fact that it wasn't all F or a special even lower rank was surprising.
Another moment where this channel is ironically named "Treantmonk"
So glad I get to watch this. I am grateful you suffered through making the video. The transitonal snark between subclasses is comedy gold and I am here for it.
Instead of struggling not to curse, you could probably say that when designing the Monk, WotC absolutely crit the bed.
I think this makes a good case that someone on the design team has it out for monks.
I always caution my players about the class, though usually receive the "i don't care about mechanics, i want to roleplay" response, followed by the "why does my character miss/die/run out of things to do while the cleric has spell slots for days!"
Good times.
Monks are great for no follow through, level 1 games. Monk and Fighter meta.
I just find Stunning Strike to be one of the most boring abilities in the game. It holds too much power over your success because it's so swingy and binary. I would much rather the effect hindered the enemy like the Slow spell for example, instead of completely negating them. That way it would be more of a conscious creature by creature decision. Then I might look at easing some of the competing bonus action features and maybe bumping the amount of ki points by proficiency modifier. Monk has so much flavor going for it but it just doesn't come together in a package I ever want to play.
If a monk wants someone to be stunned, he will be, luck or not.
It's overpowered except if there are more than 4 combats between short rests which is very unlikely in normal campaigns.
The answer seems to be getting rid of all ki altogether. The monk should just be doing things.
(If you're trying to polish a turd, choosing a specific number more ki is pointless. Might as well at least double it, and then its a number worth forgetting anyway)
@@youtubeseagull As long as Stunning strike is switched to the Slow effect, with full stun only on a critical hit, that feels balanced. Oh, the self heal and high-level abilities will probably need a separate use too.
Just wanted to jump back in and say I like this a lot, Stunning strike, bonus action conflict, and limited Ki are the sorest spots and your comment goes straight in.
Kensai is at its best on an archer, especially since Ki-Fueled Attack allows bonus action attacks with longbows. Focused Aim and Deft Strike allow you to use 1 Ki as part of your Attack action with a ranged weapon, meaning you get a bonus action attack with that same ranged weapon. 3 longbow attacks per turn at levels 5 & 6 is pretty potent, especially with the Sharpshooter feat. Your speed combined with the feat's range and damage makes you a potent sniper. Normally people need to combine Sharpshooter with Crossbow Expert to get a bonus action ranged attack, but you can do it with one less feat and on a much better weapon, allowing you to invest more into your Dexterity, or to grab a different feat if you need to.
It's limited by your ki still, but since you'll be attacking from range this is the only thing you need to spend it on. 5-6 bonus action attacks per short rest isn't bad at these levels when combined with Sharpshooter's +10 damage. Agile Parry doesn't cost Ki, so it's cheap enough to combine it with Patient Defense in order to buff your defenses if an enemy closes in for melee. And Kensai's Shot isn't as good as a bonus action attack, but it's still a free 1d4 when you run out of Ki and need a short rest.
As you level, this strategy gets more longevity because it doesn't become any more expensive but you get more and more ki between each short rest, and there are some pretty potent longbows you can get access to. (If you don't, the ability to make your weapon magic only becomes stronger.) In a party that wants short rests, I think a Kensai archer is an excellent option, and the subclass wants you to go into it so this isn't an especially niche build. It takes moderation and smart use of your resources, (mostly just only relying on Focused Aim when you miss and Deft Strike when you don't) but it's still a potent damage dealer all the same.
I see the build path for this and it does make me question why not just go cbe and ss with a fighter? That is a very common and easy to pull off build that can do the bonus action attack, sharpshooter damage but also have a very good ac, action surge, second wind, and subclass features. I suppose you miss out on deflect missiles and being able to disengage with ki, but without a resource cost on your bonus action you'll be able to do it regardless of how long the adventuring day is and again gain a bunch of cool subclass choices
@@chrisvelo2595 There's a few reasons Kensai might be preferable. The first is that Crossbow Expert only works with hand crossbows, and those aren't the best weapon. Magic hand crossbows rarely come up in game, while longbows have a few more magic weapons statted out. (Such as the Oathbow, but there's also less OP options available.)
Next, it's the playstyle. The Sharpshooter Hand Crossbow has a range of 120 ft and the fighter has a normal speed. A lot of enemies are faster than you, and if they Dash they can catch up very quickly, so you can't maintain distance against an enemy that wants you gone. But monks are faster and longbows have a range of 600ft after Sharpshooter, so you never have to be within engagement range.
Next, there's the defenses - a Kensai can fight in melee with unarmed attacks and get a +2 AC bonus, and then Disengage or Dodge with a Ki point. (Or just keep fighting in melee - they've still got melee weapon proficiency after all.) A Fighter can have Full Plate, but that's pretty rough if you're trying to be stealthy, as are the heavier medium armors. A Kensai will have 10+dex+wis+2 as their AC without any resource cost, which can put them above medium armors without harming stealth. (And since mobility and range are your strengths, this adds to your sniping capabilities.)
Lastly, there's the ki abilities you're using to activate Ki-Fueled Strike. Focused Aim turns a miss into a hit, increasing your accuracy and letting you hit more often. When you're taking -5 to hit, it's just really nice to have this as an option, since 1d8+15 is much higher damage than 0. But even if you hit both attacks, spending 1 ki on Deft Strike for an extra 1d8 isn't bad, and unless they're a Battlemaster most fighters aren't adding much damage to their attacks.
But honestly, there's no reason you can't dip two or three levels into Fighter once this build is online. Extra Ki is excellent, but it doesn't need the high level abilities so grabbing Archery Fighting Style and Action Surge (or even some Battlemaster Maneuvers) will only help you. It all refreshes on a short rest anyway.
@@normal6483 couple of counterpoints. Magic weapons will come up in a campaign and Ive never seen a dm let a PC go into high levels without some options.
The range is less of an issue since 120 feet is plenty of range. In fact you will almost never use the full 500 feet range+ a long bow gives you unless you are dealing with open terrain while light out and no obstacles.
The +2 ac applies while you take an unarmed strike using your action. Meaning that for a super ranged build like this is hardly going to take advantage of it
The ki cost is significant if you are also going to be using a majority of your ki for the bonus action attacks
Yeah, I've been curious what a party would look like in a ''no long rest ever!!!'' campaign. (It would mean that spellcasters and barbarians aren't really viable ''with the exception of warlock'' and even some rogue and fighter classes wouldn't work)
@@chrisvelo2595 A CBE Fighter is absolutely a better archer, but an archer Kensei is good enough that if it fits your character fantasy better you generally won't be holding your party back by going with it, so long as you're careful with your build.
I'm a relatively new D&D player, and my very first character was a monk. I had to rush into melee combat, and being super squishy, I was always the first one to go down. Eventually, the monk died, and I rolled up a circle of the moon druid. He ended up so broken that the DM had to send an adult silver dragon after us just so that it felt balanced (we were all level 5-6 at the time). I just don't know what to do lol.
I feel like the baseline class of the monk, without taking subclasses into account, is why people are unhappy with them. As a melee focused class with no armor proficiency, they really should have D10's for hit dice. Their ki resource should be handled like the new Psionic classes - abilities have a usage per short rest, and then you can burn ki points to use them again. And their ability DCs should be based on the player's choice of STR, DEX, or WIS. Then they wouldn't be so MAD.
Thanks for doing this...I am in the process of trying to create a subclasses for a Monk right now...hardest build I have ever done! Trying to make what I am doing seem Monkish, and not burn Ki points endlessly is stupid...yesterday I almost scrapped the whole thing! When I get feedback, I think people do not understand how bad Monk subclasses are, so everything is immediately OP to them...they simply do not see the OP illusion...they see OP, because my subclass actually works!
Good rule of thumb for "fixing" monks.
Make ki points activate whatever ability or effect for a duration.
Use a ki point to dodge as a bonus action, and the monk gets that for a minute, and such.
What kills monks is that they generally need to spam ki points on mediocre abilities, and end the fight with none left. Other classes either spend resources for longer effects, or stronger ones, so, just, lean into monks kinda sucking, and assuming that the monk probably needs to use Flurry of Blows 3 times to get anything done.
We need your Monk class and subclass overhaul / variant Chris
Yes please!
@treantmonk have you done a full “Base Monk Class Fix” or something similar? I would love to see someone with the game mechanic knowledge that you have fix the base monk class. I feel like your Rage Fire of Burning Hate of all that is suck of the monk could actually transform it into an amazing class!
His Monk Variant video is a version of base monk (with similar alterations to Open Hand, Four Elements and Shadow) that seeks to fix a lot of the problems with monk: Competition between bonus action choices, changes to underwhelming and unflavorful features (stillness of mind+deflect missiles and tongue of the sun and moon respectively among others) and a massively buffed capstone feature.
I have yet to start this video, but I just know this is gonna be a wild ride with a lot of tears from Monks.
I can't wait.
The wait is over!
I feel like monk was designed with an early style guide that was used for SCaG, and then forgotten when the game design evolved.
For Mercy Monks and Hands of Harm, I would also point out that you can do unarmed strikes as your action attacks until you hit, then switch to monk weapon attacks. Burning the ki for Hands of Harm lets you attack with your weapon on your bonus action because of Ki Fueled Attack.
So you have 3 chances to trigger Hands of Harm without giving up any weapon attacks.
Next edition, you gotta rebuild it from the ground up or roll it into a Fighter subclass. This is only getting more and more embarrassing as fifth edition ages.
Monk has plenty of design space for its own class. Same with Ranger.
6e just needs to *take advantage of it*. It took until 5e for the Paladin to take advantage of its own design space effectively. Maybe Monk and Ranger will finally follow suit in 6e. Hopefully.
@@tiradegrandmarshal I actually think ranger isn't that bad, it has improved a lot with Tasha's and some of its spells are pretty good
@@chrisvelo2595 The sub-classes in Xanathar's gave the Ranger a pretty good boost too.
Fixing Monk isn't too hard. Remove the Ki cost to Patient Defense, allow Step of the Wind to combine disengage and dash, upgrade Martial Art dice one step, increase Ki pool to Monk Level + Prof Bonus and grant 1/2 prof bonus to all non proficient saving throws at say, level 5. Oh and Stillness of Mind grants immunity to fear and charm. The big problem is fixing most of the subclasses. Many make a bad chassis worse.
@@brettmajeske3525 one of my favourite step of the wind fixes is that you either get the effect until the end of your next turn or that on subsequent turns it costs no ki points provided you don't stop using the ability. Makes it feel way cooler and more of an activated ability and less like a minor speed boost.
Thaumaturgy would be a good spell for a shadow monk to gain, and it’s a cantrip. It has a range of 30ft and can be used to change bright light from flames to dim light for 1 minute, no concentration.
A lot of the monks actually get better if you make it a strength based tortle monk. It is also easier to multiclass with barbarian (1 lvl dip gets you 2 extra damage per weapon attack during rage) I also like using a step of the wind jump of 40 feet.
I think Monk in general is best used by stripping a few of its parts off, and misusing them to better effect in another class or build.
Wizards grabbing 10 move speed, better resting AC, and a few free dodge actions per day.
Barbs grabbing an extra attack to use on a bonus action.
Stuff like that.
Chris, thank you very much for this video: I loled during all the video! You made my day sir!! :D
This was a really fun one. One thought on the long death monk’s hour of reaping tho: could be good with your party standing in a paladin’s aura of courage.
Nice catch. By that level a lot of enemies will be immune to fear, but if they aren't, this is an awesome action!!
The only thing that's made Monks viable whatsoever is the new Unarmed Fighting style from Tasha's Cauldron. A D8 for your unarmed strikes from the get-go, but this requires either a multiclass dip or variant human for the feat. Still, I like the flavor of Astral Monk, so even though it sucks, with Unarmed Fighting, at least it doesn't make you a liability as much as before Tasha's.
I usually give monks a homebrew item that steals ki on crits to counter these issues.
Man even with my dice luck i still like id need more ki
We all knew this day would come, and we are happy that it came
1:02:00
"This feature might be better on a class that can reliably down an enemy. I guess we can carry around a bag of rats."
"You know what, on second thought, we're a Monk, we might want to be careful about taking on rats."
Treantmonk somehow critically hit with Vicious Mockery.
Very few things make me as happy as hearing treantmonk ranting about how bad monks are haha. 😂
Put them all in their own separate Monk tier
M for monk?
@@poilboiler G for garbage.
They are pretty much all together, cusioning the ass of the heirarchy
Thank you for this. As a rule, I love monks for the cool, even if they aren't the best on the table...so I'm looking forward to this analysis
Your understanding and knowledge of DND makes me think you’d be an amazing DM.
The best low level monk starts with 1st level fighter.
Whilst I agree with the sentiment of the video throughout, I have one tiny nitpick from having tried to homebrew a better version of the Sun Soul monk for my own table. That is that the Sunburst ability costs no ki at its base level. Now 2d6 as an action is not by any stretch of the imagination good especially at 11, but hard to bump up by much without suddenly becoming free fireballs. (I settled on 2d8 base + 2d8 per ki, half damage on a save, blinded if you fail the save, with a save for the blinded condition at the end of each turn)
Edit: If anyone knows of another free of resources AOE effect that I could balance it off instead that would be great
at level 11 nobody would even notice if you had free fireballs. That's 23 dmg. you're doing. Wow you can blow up clouds of goblins. I can be a druid and summon creatures that might do 19, then i heal every one for also 23 damage to everybody on the same round, just as example of what's hapnin on 9 or 11 and up. And so on , just as an example. Free fireballs is nothing.
I tried making an artificer before the official release and "thought" that 4d8 might be ok at level 9. It wasn't . It was still laughable. You're still just keeping that player from having any fun and killing stuff. You have to let the top off the ideas and then edit if you guys can think of something too strong, but it will take something too strong to make up for all the fun that player has already missed out on. That player already has trauma and permanent issues as a result of your parenting. It is a crisis situation and requires immediate injections of Cartoon like allowances. I mean this with all my heart. Save that fucking player's life. Give him/her/they full freedom to make whatever the hell he wants out of his shit abilities. Those little adjustments are too little, too late.
that's a con save right? I save for half. so 12 dmg. no blind and a wasted turn. Or 24 dmg, blind for one turn, save next turn, nobody notices. "Awe you made the wizard not cast a spell for one round, good job, sidekick." and he lowers his head back to its relegated side kick level, with no hope level of excitement, never to enjoy D&D ever. "great game guys" he says as he heads home, his face growing blanker by the session, more and more hollow and souless.
i still think its better to allow for homebrew than just switching the class and making a new character.
@@youtubeseagull I think your being too optimistic, D&D has a sidekick option and those sidekicks are still leagues above the monk.
Been looking forward to this one. Haven’t started yet. I’ll just assume they are all S ranked
They weren’t all S Ranked…
Do you think it would be enough to make all monk abilities follow the pattern of the UA Way of the Ascendant Dragon, where you can use your features a number of times equal to proficiency bonus per short rest, and after that expend ki to use them?
Eventually Treantmonk will make a proper fix to the monk class that actually balances it, considering even his own remake of it he admitted was still sub-par even if better than the core.
My way of balancing monk is to just scrap the ki system and make sublass features that use it/stunning strike be able to be used equal to your proficency bonus per short rest.
@@archmagemc3561 I request elaboration? Seriously though if you've got a breakdown of it feel free to post it.
One balance question I’ve always had about monk (among many), is why is their hit die a D8? They have supposedly trained their body to the point of it being a lethal weapon. A D10 or D12 would make more sense.
Ranger and Fighter both get a D10, and Barbarian a D12.
yup no ki, no limit. No x times per day, nothing.
@@papersage69 The hit die being a d8 kind of makes sense to me, because monks should get hurt when they get hit by attacks. But they shouldn't be getting hit very often (i.e. hit & run or Patient Defence and decent AC). And their training should be reflected in their saving throws as they have honed their mind and body to have complete control of it regardless of circumstance - but their "proficiency in all saving throws" needs to be earlier.
Corpo Guy: "I've designed a great tank!"
General: "So, it has great armor, can move fast, and has a really big gun?"
Corpo Guy: "Yeah! But it cant do them all at once. It can either have armor _or_ move well _or_ have a big gun!"
This is what the Monk feels like with their reliance on Ki. It's like making a tank that uses gas to make armor, guns, AND movement work.
So your saying that the monk is a Bradley?
ATMOSK, that's an interesting thought! That would mean that some corporate force were lobbying WoTC to include, not just Monks, but a crappy version of Monks!, for profit! I wonder if the CCP was involved...
It's worth noting that both a drunken master and open hand monk can use their mobility and their big guns every round, thus solving one of the basic dilemmas with a monk (albeit not all the problems with a monk). Still should have been ranked higher though.
@@Joemantler the Bradley was an American tank, so the ccp wasn't involved.
@@ATMOSK1234 CCP involved in the design of MONKS, not the Bradley,
I was so excited about Astral Self when it came out in UA. It was a lot better than other monks, but still weaker than most martials. However the flavor and defensive capabilities had me wanting to play one.
Then of course they decided that they can’t make a monk that’s any better than the other monks, that just wouldn’t do.
Yet they released Mercy at the same time, which is better than other monks.
@@TreantmonksTemple Not to mention that we get the Twilight cleric in the same book that gave us the Astral Self monk.
The one we've all been waiting for. I'm working on a drinking game. Take a big drink for every D/E
In this video: Chris savagely roasting monks with extreme prejudice. I love it. I periodically watch it again and again bc I just find this so entertaining. Poor monks lol. Peak comedy Chris, though. Jeff Ross better hide.