5.0L FORD VS 5.0L COYOTE-WHAT'S THE BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK? HAS MODERN TECHNOLOGY IMPROVED THE 5.0L?
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- čas přidán 2. 03. 2022
- CAN THE FOX 5.0L COMPETE WITH A MODERN 5.0L COYOTE? HOW MUCH POWER DOES A STOCK 5.0L MAKE? HOW MUCH POWER DOES A MODIFIED 5.0L MAKE? WHAT IS THE BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK? WHICH 5.0L SHOULD I MODIFY? HOW DO I MAKE CHEAP POWER WITH MY 5.0L? IS A COYOTE CHEAPER THAN THE ORIGINAL 5.0L? CAN A MODIFIED COYOTE MAKE 600 HP? HOW MUCH POWER ARE HEADS, CAM AND INTAKE WORTH? CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO WHERE I COMPARED A STOCK 5.0L (FOX) FORD 302 TO A STOCK 2011 5.0L COYOTE. I THEN COMPARED A MODIFIED 5.0L (FOX) 5.0L TO THE STOCK COYOTE, THEN ILLUSTRATED WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU MODIFY THE ALREADY POWERFUL COYOTE. HOW FAR HAVE WE COME?
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The only guy on the internet who gives a logical look at this argument. Keep up the good work and content Richard!
The torque out of that coyote at 475ft-lb out of "only" 5.0L is super impressive, and yes 600HP out of the Coyote NA especially gen 3 is not that difficult to achieve.
Coyote is the best engine Ford has come out with in the modern age. 7 seconds stock motor, 8’s in RCSB trucks, extremely mod friendly, reliable, the only downside is the sound isn’t as good as the 4.6’s or the old school stuff.
Yep, amazing engine, crappy sound. Although, in new edge swaps, it seems to sound decent. It must be the exhaust configuration vs an S550. I plan to Coyote swap my 01 Cobra roller because the cost of the 4.6 rebuild for meh HP, vs a Coyote swap are more bang for the buck.
@@isaace8090 I have a theory in my head that coyotes sound way better with mid mufflers rather than axle backs, as most new edge and fox swaps have mid mufflers and sound way better. Best of luck on that tho I love the new edge cobra look and to have a 5.0 under there would be fantastic.
The Godzilla ain't bad either
@@169abr I agree
Godzilla & Coyote both very good platforms
Mr Holdener, I think it's time to build an all-out pushrod 8000rpm 5.0
You don't need to go all out for 8000 rpm. I shifted my 289 at 8500 on a daily driver with a stock bottom end in a '68 Mustang. My friend with a '65 had his built from scratch with an 8V intake, and I was in his car at 9500. Both Top Loader cars.
@@413x398
Men like you cut down woolly mammoth with your real cars and real driver's skill . Men now... stomp the pedal and their computers do EVERYTHING and they think they're tough bro. Whoopin on Integras and Civics doesn't make you bad ass.
@@413x398 4000 fpm on stock cast pistons? I'd have hated to see the skirts on them.
please see the 8000-rpm hyd roller SBF video
@@hayden6056 It had 68 thou on the engine when I did the cam and heads. At 84 thou blowby started to rear its ugly head. That's when I pulled it out. Sold it as a long block builder to another guy, so I never saw the skirts or bearings. It was expendable from the git go, so no big deal. New engine had Boss 302 block and 13:1 Jahns domes (12:1 with the 64cc ported Windsor heads), and factory LeMans solid cam. Circa 1975, factory GT/CS Mustang. 2950 lbs without driver.
I’m going to be a 540inch Boss 9 headed big block in my Falcon and it doesn’t cost much more and is dimensionally smaller than a coyote
Uh...while I think the BOSS 9 is soooo badass, it is over twice the price of MSRP for a FRPP coyote crate engine, and is definitely not smaller. LxWxH of a coyote is roughly 26"x28"x27", whereas a BOSS 9 is in the neighborhood of 32"x29"x30".
Boss 9 is way more in price. And youd get 2 feet per gallon and even with yoked coyote boosted or NA youre getting 16+ mpg. It can be a racecar and a daily. Perfectly streetable even at 1500 hp. The coyote is just toooo good
@@PunisherDMT Depends on what Coyote you're talking about. The 580hp version is 26.5k the Boss Nine is 23.5k. That would be a tough decision for me honestly. Like you said the Boss 9 is such a bad ass hmm guess it's a good thing I don't have that kind of money :)
I considered going coyote at one point. The engine and control pak pricing made it tempting. But after talking to a couple guys that swapped theirs, it's a lot more expensive than it appeared to be.
As tempting as it would be to have a revving coyote, I ended up building a budget stroker that made good topend and a lot more torque without all the cost of the swap.
If you're talking about a chassis that would be a swap either way, then that's a different story. But for a foxbody, a built pushrod will be cheaper.
even better, you can gear that stroker numerically low, get less engine wear, and still feel like you're winding out in each gear.
The old school small block Ford is a much narrower and shorter engine. It will fit in a lot of things that a Coyote won't. If I had money to burn I'd just buy an aftermarket SBF block that could take big cubes and handle a lot of power and be done with it. You can even buy a 408 SBF longblock with new castings from BluePrint for $6500.
How many miles do you think you get out of the engine? The coyote even with 100,000 miles out of a junkyard will still last longer then the sbf
@@simbanugz2906 Not necessarily.
Any of us with machinist and builder experience can improve a Windsor.
You have to understand that the building and technology of a Windor engine dates back to the mid 1960's... 30 years before 4.6 mod motors and 40 years before Coyote.
Modern practices apply to older engine designs make for more simplicity.
@@dastarddizaster I semi agree to an extent but I still don't think you're gonna get near the milage out of a built stroker with big cubes as you could a coyote engine. Not to mention mpg is gonna be better on the coyote and its gonna drive alot smoother by comparison there are other things to consider ecspecially with a street car other than just which one makes what power.
@@midnight347 I agree that the old SBF isn't going to compete on longevity or in most cases fuel economy the coyote comes with some disadvantages. The SBF can make solid and reliable power in a smaller package with much simpler support systems than even a basic Coyote swap, assuming the Coyote even fits.
@@midnight347 Yes, I agree.
The advantages to the Coyote are essentially its pent roof chamber, 4 small valves (keeping velocity high with flow rate and a few assorted other arguments) VVT (when not disabled but often is on racing engines) and the fueling. Aren't some Coyote engines direct injected? That does wonders for timing accuracy which improves power and efficiency in some cases.
I agree, retrofitting and using tricks on older design engines will be extremely challenging, but that said, modernized parts including computerized fueling like on some systems make strong tuning refinements.
I still subscribe to displacement.
The mere fact that a new 7.3 Godzilla is priced ar half a new Coyote or Voodoo, speaks volumes to me.
That's one reason why GM LS engines are such a hit, cheaper initial purchase and modifiabliity.
Interesting video Richard thanks. I reckon I seen a new coyote and gearbox for 15 grand on Facebook marketplace in Australia, 5 litre fords used around 2. A fair few bucks difference down here lol
Y’all also have the Barra to consider too, Coyotes and newer Mustangs seem to be borderline luxury down there
I built this combo rears ago ...
10.5 to 1 comp
KB pop ups
Roush 200 heads w/roller springs
Stock rods, crank, E303 cam
One piece push rods, crane
Harland sharp roller rockers
FMS roller lifters,. Arp oil pump drive
Melling high pressure oil pump
Edelbrock airgap rpm, water pump
Timing all in by 2500rpm 32 degrees
Dynoed 387hp 379tq
Budget build. Surprised your high end with better cam and heads was so weak.
Needed more comp and e85 and it would push 430hp imho.
Thanks for this. I feel better now. I had modded many 5.0 cars back in the day and was very happy with the HP. Over the years I stopped driving Mustangs because Ford liked to move the seat up and make less room for me and really the 1994-1998 engines and styling did not make me happy. New edge comes out and I still don't fit. Anyway, my daily driver is an AWD Audi with a 3.0T making 470hp and 430flt lb of torque with some pulleys and software tunes on pump gas. In my mind the 302 would be easy to get to those numbers until I saw them on the dyno with mods not achieving that number so easily.
I never owned a 302 fulie in a fox, I had a modded 351 with a carb in mine because it was cheaper at the time. I always talked about picking one up and doing a 347, but I don't know if it would be track only. Stoplight racing is a bust if you get near an AWD car. I live near a high performance Dodge place and see all kinds of Hellcats and the like and if they don't have hot slicks on them, once you engage launch control on an AWD car with even half the HP, it's over.. The engine that replaced my 3.0 is a 2.9 with a turbo. One just ran 9s last week with software, turbo and exhaust.
It's good to see the Coyote howl. Maybe I might do a Fox with a Coyote in it.
You can't beat the performance of a 4 valve engine. When choosing an engine for a replica car, I calculated it cheaper to buy a Coyote engine VS building a new 5.0 Windsor. Thank you Richard for proving my inclinations and calculations. This evaluating definitely happened at Ford, I am sure. Be great to see Ford build a 4 valve head for the 6.2 "Raptor" engine
Best dang channel on CZcams!!!!
I have had many 302cid, couple 4.6 (5.0) and just 1 coyote.
Ill take the coyote Everytime!!
Would be amazing to see a table with the “cost per horsepower” as tested on the 4 different options. With maybe some data on the variability of the fugues (ie +\- xx%)
yeah, roughly $6k just for a new 5.0, not even mentioning swap needs, trans, or controls, vs a 302 with ~$3-4k tossed into it...
@@1stAxelKain Every swap I've seen so far is in the upper teens total. Where as a stroker dart block is under 7-8k-drive out the door; only problem is ECU choices for smog in most places for street duty.
One interesting thing is the coyote really shines above 4k rpms--pretty much the same, less modified (!), than the old 302 from idle to 4k. It's all about the cam I say as heads, pistons, materials, injs, gas (e85) and ECU have been improved on the old school stuff.
It's all about the end goal. Without a better block and forged internals id doubt the pushrod 5.0 would compete. You can buy all of that for what the coyote costs. A boss Block 347 would make that kind of power easily but starts to get pricey. And the Coyote is a little harder to fit older chassis. A guy can make a fun pretty quick car at that point. My vote is still the pushrod 5.0
If you have an older mustang/Ford.
There's a higher probability that a coyote will require thousands of dollars in front end suspension. ON TOP of the motor.
So pushrod is WAY cheaper to do.
I personally have a 67mustang. It's getting another pushrod 351w under the hood.
Pushrod
Yeah, it's easy to talk dollars on a dyno feeding an engine 60 degree air. but that Coyote wasn't designed for power steering, so you have to handle that in a real car--that ups the price. Want an automatic trans for consistancy? That's another standalone computer, and it will require a modern trans so that means swap the speedo from cable to sensor--more money. Then there's the throttle by wire gas pedal. And like someone said down below, a used Coyote can have issues (the LS can have issues with its displacement on demand as well). a Dart 363 cid will bolt in, reuse the oil pan and serpentine belt etc to offset costs, and make nice low end power with that displacement.
if your end goal is a "street and strip", then it's easy enough to build torque off a low deck Windsor with an Explorer intake (plenty of CZcams about how to reconfigure the lower intake and save dough) and GT40P heads and spray nitrous on the weekends. but there's a generation of hot rodders who grew up on the 2 decade old LS and so they don't know either Windsor engine design.
@@albertgaspar627 coyote swaps are becoming more popular and you can bolt up a th400 or glide for about the same price it would cost to a pushrod 5.0. It comes down to budget and skill set and what you want out of the car. Both are awesome engines.
My coyote truck motor cost $1800 five years ago from a junk. There are deals out there.
You kinda proved how versatile the Windsor 5.0 truly is. For ~$5k you can have have a good lil screamer with no worries about even finding one not to mention the fact that it’ll bolt up to just about any RWD ford… including the Gen 1 Outlaw Ranger I’m building. Can’t do that for less than 3x the price and all the mod headaches it’d take to get a Coyote 5.0 in there.
I've owned both, and as much as I like Old stuff there is no comparison. The Coyote is the best engine I have ever owned.
ThrottleTheropy187 went from a foxbody convertible with the trickflow heads and stage 2 cam to 2013 Mustang GT. He said that bone stock, the new mustang was just a hair faster than the fox with the trickflow top end.
What I’d like to see would be an apples to apples comparison between the pushrod 5.0 , the first iteration of the 4.6 2v modular, a 4v 4.6 out of an 01 Cobra, and finally a 3v out of 2010.
Completely subjective here but the 4V Cobra motor is the best sounding lol
Also depends on what kind of vehicle you going to put it in sometime the coyote won't fit without a lot of modifications also depends on your pocketbook how deep are they thank you for sharing these videos
The gains will seem less dramatic "seat of the pants" in the 'Yote vs the 302 because the 302 came in a chassis that was 8 to 900 pounds LIGHTER! If there's anything I have against the Coyote in general, it's the fact that the cars they come in are absolute porkers that need to go on a serious DIET!!! Cars in general are getting ridiculously heavy 🙄
Of course a Coyote in a Fox, that's a hot ticket 🔥
2011-2014 gts dont weigh that much 3400lbs
Start with giving the engine a diet, huge lump with all those cam covers. Look at an LS, pushrod and still moderatly sized. And generally has more power than the OHC lump, which is also top heavy and does nothing for handling
These newer cars dont squeak and rattle like a foxbody did lol I remember when I first got into an sn95 and closed the door I was impressed at how solid it sounded compared to a foxbody. A lot less road noise as well
That's the price you pay for creature comfort and safety items. Also the factory invest a lot into nvh (noise,vibration, harshness) improvements
@@ldnwholesale8552 You mean the LS Windsor??? An LS looks very close to what a Windsor looks like...
The only way to make a Windsor 302 do Coyote stuff is to go into the bottom end. In addition to top of the line cylinder heads you probably need to go at least 11:1, and a pretty aggressive camshaft . You probably would need to go with a Victor style manifold and 1 3/4 long tubes.
The only way around that is a 331 displacement bump or a power adder.
It would still be less expensive than going coyote because of the R&D on the legacy stuff has long since been paid for.
Drive ability on the other hand wouldn’t be as good. It would be a very rowdy combination.
I don't think it would be less money. You don't have to go crate engine there are plenty of used coyotes for way less. You need to tally up all this stuff again not so sure you did it correctly. The Windsor to make it comparable to a stock coyote is gonna cost ALOT. Just the heads cam intake setup on this motor is prob a 4000+ dollar setup. Then you start talking about forged high compression pistons and better rods ans you still need an aftermarket block for it to be able to handle coyote levels of power. We're not just talking about getting it to stock coyote power but also being able to take the kind of power a stock coyote can take which is going to require a dart block. It will costs alot more for the Windsor. I seen a gen 1 truck coyote w only 50k for 3500 yesterday. That was 3500 shipped.
Hi Richard, just watched your comparison of pushrod 5 liter v Coyote 5 liter combos! I think that the ratio on ci to hp is really hard to beat in stock form was awesome, but!!! The external dimensions on the coyote are so enormous that older Ford platforms just don’t have room to clear the shock towers!! Just bout my wife a nice 2001 gt convertible! It has room, but there’s no way in hell I’m modifying it! However, it is much easier to install a 351w based engine in these early and fox body based cars, and if I may add, a cheap Windsor with heads, cam, and intake is still a more viable option!! I admit I’m almost 62, that doesn’t effect my opinion, the fact is Chevy guys have argued not the cost per hp for generations! The 351w is cheap, reliable and makes great power for the buck!
For being cost effective, I think a 351 Windsor stroker build would probably be a cheaper solution than a Coyote, but neither is gonna be cheap. The salvage yard Coyotes might eventually get cheaper though. I hope.
In 20yrs yes, soon, nope.. A stroker 351W will always beat a SlowYote, both in power n SOUND!!
A low priced stroked 351W can go together pretty cheap.
Both Scat and Eagle sell a 3.850" stroke crank for the W, ends up 393".
The great part here is at that stroke you use the stock Windsor rods and 302 pistons - the pin height is right there.
The market is flooded with low-priced high quality 5.0/302 pistons.
The crank is inexpensive and the rest are everyday, off the shelf parts.
My customers LOVED them!
@@Motor-City-Mike Amen, plus the sound of them is crazy good..
@@P71ScrewHead i don't this so in hp but sound yes .
@@Spad68 I'm sure being stroked to a 427, 454 or 460ci would make more power than a Coyote..
Is the juice worth the squeeze, though?
In today's economic climate the old school 5L with home ported P heads and an Explorer intake and two off shore T3 variants would be way more cost effective.
Im surprised at the use of the tfs street intake instead of track heat with those heads. . Im also surprised at the fact that it made the power as high rpm as it did with that street intake.
Bang for the buck would be an On3 turbo kit on the OG 5.0 with GT40 heads and intake.
I mean upgraded springs.
This is what I did with the cheap afr heads and Terminator X. I've stomped every new 5.0 that's tried me. Cannot beat that bang for the buck. When it finally scatters, I'm just going to get a dart block and crank up the boost.
I own a 12 Boss 302 and a 65 Sbf 349. The 349 makes 478hp 442tq and of course the Boss 302 makes 444hp and 380tq. The Boss has the track key and when activated sounds like it has an old school cam, but the 349 X cam just hits different. So 349 for the win.
what would be more interesting on the dyno is a 1st Gen Coyote Truck engine, these should be starting to accumulate in the wrecking yards in the next few years. .5 less compression, smaller cams, BUT has piston squirters. Curious how much less hp the "360hp" truck engine makes. Truck motor + Turbo might be the next "bang for your buck"
For half what a Gen3 Coyote crate engine costs you can have a 408ci 351W with 550+ hp and it will fit in any car made so there is no question who wins dollar for dollar.
Until you have to worry about emissions
Yea for the price I'd maybe say the old pushrod 5.0 but power per cube and efficiency the coyote wins all day
But then it's also a 6.7 liter and not a 5.0 but I get your point you can do that with the old small block but the coyotes you can bore out maybe .050 in. Until you get thin coolant jacket walls
You can’t built a reliable 550 HP 408W for $5K starting with new parts. Not even close.
Maybe a swap meet special
A 500hp winsor is NOT the same as a 500hp coyote
Back in the day I went from eating breathing sleeping FE engines to the 5.0's I'm not sure if the best one I had, Had magic dust, I'm a hell of a driver, lucky as hell, or a little of each, 308 gears, 2.5 exhaust, off-road H pipe, short throw shifter, underdrive pulleys, homemade Ram air that ran through the headlight, ( man should have patented it it was slick) handsome Port match 1969 351 Windsor heads, 4-cylinder Springs in the front, Outran a few new vette that cost 50 Grand, once a cammed up 70 Chevelle with a 454, would consistently outrun a buddy of mine's Mustang that was supercharged, it felt faster? than my 428cj headed 390 with 370 gear auto in 66 fairlane. I'm thinking the guys in the Corvettes weren't willing to push as hard as I has in my $4500 junkyard Frankenstein 89, and my buddy with a supercharger had 373's and street tires and would try to leave at 3 Grand, man used to get so mad, it was awesome! Hard to believe those Motors only had 225hp everyone swore my front tires are barely coming off the ground or tippy-toeing when I would leave. Good times! one guy i knew took a 4-cylinder turbo out of a Turbo Coupe and put it in a pinto what keep up with the Mustangs and bring home trophies for consistency at Wentzville. Dam🤔 ...I'm old
I definitely go old school 302 built really strong on the bottom end and I'd put aluminum chi 351 Cleveland heads on top 3v and it's game over for the yote
It's a tough choice that I had to make myself recently. I'm not a Ford guy, but I'm diving into my obs F1-5.0 this week that my dad bought new when I was born. I went with the old school engine bc the cost to swap EVERYTHING out was just too much, and it has a ~40k mile ATK crate 306 in it. I'm putting together basically the same combo Richard has here, except I have the AFR 1388 CNC heads and a Victor efi intake. I wonder, if you had the cam to spin up the Fox 5.0 to 7k, maybe the results might be more in-line? One thing that stands out to me, too, with these old efi fords is how the intake does a 180 - that cant be great for flow, especially at high rpm?
How about another test with a bigger cam, Holley hi-ram, and maybe some even better heads? I really think old girl might hold her own if you really let her eat!
@Richard Holdener - I have the same Holley efi I'll be using. Do you happen to have a tune file from this build you can share 😂 I wonder how good it's going to run, or if it'll be like the old days where it barely runs until you get it tuned lol.
Thanks for all you do!
Keep the old skool alive, you could build that 5.0 or do s stroker 351W, will make more power than a Coyote.. n sound way better too..
Just checked eBay and F150 Coyotes are the same price ($2,400 from LKQ) as a GM 6.0L from the same year(s) and same goes for similar L92/ LS3/ LT1 - Mustang Coyote's.
Godzilla is finally getting speed parts. I like the cast iron block . It fits in a lot of cars.
While the cost comparison motor motor is spot on, the total costs change depending on what vehicle you are trying to put it in. I couldn't justify the additional cost of a Coyote swap for my classic Mustang. Sn95, truck, or even Fox may be a different story.
a yote swap is not cheap
I'd go with model year chassis approach.
Anything pre mod motor, the Windsor class engine of choice.
I'd do either a 363/5.0 or a 454+/351
In any pre 2000 build.
Infact, I have a 363ci in a 1996 Bronco.
I wish I did the 7.3 Godzilla crate motor though, dollar for dollar, it's a modern LS competitor IMHO.
I'd kill for a Voodoo in a sleeper 2018+ F150.
This. The 7.3 is the best pushrod motor to go with and they make a low profile intake for it now that makes it even easier to fit and makes more power. I've seen em like 4k for good used ones. The low pro intake and cam is good for 500/500 or well over depending on the cam choice for relatively modest cost and it sounds like a 351 on steroids. For some reason most traditionalist guys who love pushrods wanna argue against it too because it's "newer " I don't get it myself. It's a beast of an engine. More badass Ford options we have the better and I'm a mod motor guy.
What about a 5.0 Windsor with 12:1 compression like the coyote? And maybe a 232@.050 cam? I know it’s not gonna make 600hp like the coyote but I feel like it could be a lot closer to 450-475hp? Show us an all out 5.0 Richard!!
With TFS heads, a solid roller cam, a ported vic Jr and appropriate fueling you can have 600hp
You know what I would love to see is a 408w vs 408ls
I know I know same displacement same head airflow same HP, more interested in just the options
EX ford's you can only get an air gap intake and around 300 cfm heads ish (talking off the shelf good stuff not race)
But an ls has 1 million intakes it seems and heads that flow over 350 off the shelf
More then the price of the coyote I think the size hurts it. Thing is giant
THANK YOU Mr. Holdener!!!!!!!!
What makes a torque curve go up and down like that?
(the red line at 6:47)
If I had a car with a pushrod 5.0 already in it, I would think carefully before swapping in a coyote. From 4000 to 6500, the Coyote wins, hands down. I'd wait before swapping in the coyote until I take a look at things like power steering pumps, clearance, etc. A sloppy swap can ruin a really great car.
-- A friend of mine had a nice OBS F150 with a 351W. It had different heads (takeoffs from a crate engine) and a carb conversion. We welded up an airbox that took air from the firewall cowl at the base of the windshield. We thought about Coyote swapping it, but that intake setup sent so much sweet sound into the cab, we couldn't do it. That was a fun truck.
The coyote can swap into 96 up mustangs very easily as it's essentially a newer mod motor. Many stock components can be re used. That is the ideal mustang to do a coyote swap in assuming it had a mod motor factory.
@@midnight347 That would be a neat bodystyle to swap a coyote into. The right amount of dash chopping would be prety sweet.
How fitting, the 5.0 Litre video has 302 comments..
Hi Richard, how about power to weight, what does the old cast iron mooring block weigh compared to the quad cam?
It would be cool to see the 351w compared to the coyote
I agree. For many folks that have a solid platform for Windsor motors I think are very interested to see what it would take in terms of cost to make a 351w, 351C, or Clevor comparable to a Coyote for swap purposes.
A coyote swap in a Fox platform requires: K-members, brake booster, control pack, wiring, accessory drives & brackets, exhaust, trans/bell-housing...etc.
Meanwhile a 351 swap will bolt up to existing k-member, trans bell-housing, aftermarket ECU if already equipped from OE 5.0, no brake booster mods necessary. Some brackets will need to be replaced, Distributor, header swap req'd but will mate to existing exhaust, etc...
Bottom line I think it's a close comparison and worth running the numbers on to see if it's worth the time & money to go either way. Cyl. heads will be where most of the cost will come from on a 351 swap.
A bone stock Coyote will be better out the box compared to a stock 351, but where is the break even point on power/mods? We've seen a 1,000hp junkyard 351...
This gotta be a good one ☝️
Giving you a thumbs up on one I missed Richard. Kind of a moot point about the Coyote motor since You can’t find them in the wrecking yards. Personally if I were a ford guy I’d just do a 351.
I don't know if this was an old video. But i have no problem finding coyote's. In fact i got a source for complete pullouts, engine, transmission, ecu, harness and pedals. I don't know if this video is old or something. But there are hundreds of f150's with gen1 coyotes for cheap. By cheap i mean under $5k.
This is also an exercise in what 4 valve heads can be worth compared with 2. A little of it is probably also compression. The stock coyote comes with 10.5 to 11 to 1 depending on which version.
12:1 on Gen 3
@@169abr
You're correct. But he said this was a gen 1 build.
@@177SCmaro fair enough, I’d love to see Richard get his hands on a Gen 2 engine or a RoadRunner.
Coyote heads flow 285-290CFM from the factory, and gain 25-40cfm with porting on the intake side. So to make the old 5.0 competitive it will need to be installed with a head that does 300-320CFM such as a ported TFS-TW and a cam and intake ( not a long runner ) that allows spin as high as the Coyote. You could get 500-700HP naturally aspirated out of an old 5.0 with the right parts, but it's going to rev past 6000 RPM.
The only way the old 5.0 could come close to the coyote is with high compression 11.0-12.0:1 a vic efi 5.0 intake manifold and a camshaft designed to make higher end power. The ported TFS 11R heads are just fine. Also it would make more sense for it to have a built bottom end with TFS specific pistons. It could get to 500HP by 7000 RPM or so. The torque would be around 420-430 tq, due to the compression increase. The coyote has the advantage of the dohc heads, with much more low lift flow, and the variable valve timing which allows them to boost torque off idle to 3000 rpm or so.
Both are great engines, but the downside of the coyote is the external dimensions of the engine. This is where a stroked 351W is a great alternative, its outer dimensions are smaller than the coyote, but it has around the same output as one overall. Bringing up the power level on the stroked 351W still would be less expensive than the coyote also win win.
true--folks who grew up with the Windsors know how to make a coyote cry, meanwhile we have a generation who only knows the LS and the Coyote and that's where their experience begins and ends.
I have a coyote in my fox body and love everything about it. Drives like a stock fox body until you get on it. Coyote all the way!!
My buddy has had both. He prefers the coyote.
MMR says you can have up to 1000hp on a stock bottom end before you have to toughen it up.
You didn't mention the cost of Engine management. Go to Holley EFI and price a Terminator X for a coyote then a SBF. Or go to look up what control packs cost.
Would u mind doing a 5.8 vs cyote i just had a discussion about the 351 vs a cyote hp per dollar
Godzilla vs coyote next please 😀
👍👍 Have you done a whipple coyote or turbo? They I believe are tripling horsepower. Insane!
The Coyote in this vid got boost too
@Richard Holdener, I know there isnt much chance of finding one in the boneyard but this comparison really isn't complete without a Godzilla thrown into the mix. much less expensive as a crate then the Coyote is and huge power potential.
Revan Evan has several vids of Godzillas stock and upgraded over at Brian Wolfe's place.
This 5.0L vs 5.0L comparison is actually very complete, testing a 7.3L would be a different video
@@richardholdener1727 spose you're right on that one.
As someone who decided to make coyote power with a 7k rpm roller 302 for my f-100 for the cool factor and has blown up two motors already and realized for the money I have in this effort I could have had my truck professionally coyote swapped and still had money left over... Just start with the coyote swap, don't be me 😂 The OG does sound cooler though 🤔
Hey Richard! Love the videos. Gotta question. So im copying this pushrod 302 build but using the 274 cam. Would you keep the 53cc 170s or would you upgrade to the 56cc 190 11R's? I'm building the car to be a road course/ street cruiser.
the 190 has room to gro
@@richardholdener1727 my thought exactly. I got my hands on a set of 190 11R's today so I'll take it
I watched several videos on the coyote engine and they claim that the truck version is basically the same engine as in the mustang with a few differences. The exhaust and intake manifolds are different and the cams and the oil pan of course to fit the different chassis. I can understand maybe not finding many in wrecking yard in mustangs but trucks should be more common. I think they only had 3 or 4 engines offered in the F150. A 3.6 base the 3.6 twin turbo ecoboost and the 5.0 coyote. And depending upon the year maybe a 3.6 or 4 liter diesel. I can't remember exactly how big the diesel was but it was offered in 2019 and 2020 I think. It could have been a 3.0 liter and I think it was turbo too. I digress. What I noticed the most was no boost for either 5.0 engine so there's even more potential power.
What I think right this moment is how much power can a stock bottom end coyote make before something breaks. Have you done or plan to do a big bang on the 5.0 coyote? That's yet another factor to think about when choosing between the older 5.0 and the new 5.0 coyote is the durability. I know the older 5.0 has more or less a power limit 500 to 600 hp and that's all the block can take. Even in your test in this video you made more power with the coyote than the older 5.0 could handle for very long, and like I said before that's only NA. Turbos, nitrous, or blower can get even more. I also know roush racing makes a blower kit for the coyote 5.0 and it's supposed to get 750 hp out of it from a stock engine. I think it's just a blower, intake, and intercooler with a different tune. But the rest of the engine is stock. Rods pistons,heads and cams. I don't think they even add ring gap.
Some dealers also off Whipple packages and can make 700+ whp as compared to the crank rated from Roush.
Also F-150 motors were very different until Gen 3 came around, some theorize they’re actually stronger than mustang engines.
@@169abr from what I saw the Roush set up was making 750 at the tire as well but I haven't seen one in person and don't know anyone who has done it. I've been told that if you get a new F150 that it can be installed by a dealership and it doesn't void the factory power train warranty and it gets included in the warranty too. I would ask though before I made plans. Also heard in F 250 and 350 that a twin turbo 7.3 godzilla is supposed to be coming out this year and it is supposed to make 1000 wheel hp. Which brings me to a point. I'd like to see Richard test one of those on the dyno. Find out how much power the 7.3 godzilla can really lay down.
@@dannytravis7118 I’ve yet to hear those Godzilla rumors, I don’t think Ford would ever do something like that with the way they’re pushing EV’s and lower power engines.
As for Roush, that is true, Roush is a Ford partner as is Whipple at the moment I believe and you can get their blowers/packages installed by your local ford dealer and keep a warranty of some sorts, the Gen 3’s have heat soak issues but the Gen 1 & 2 packages are actually a pretty good deal to be honest. Especially a Gen 2 cause a pulley and a Lund tune can make them damn fast.
Any possibility we could see a junkyard 351w vs junkyard 5.0L Coyote (Gen __?) video???
Compare: Stock, similarly modded, & similarly boosted.
Which swap will give you the best bang for your buck??
a stock 351W is 200 hp down on a Coyote (even gen 1)
@Richard Holdener At ~4:45, you said to the effect of the TFS 11R head/Stage 2 cam combination that it had "kind of minimal" piston to valve clearance. Specifically how "minimal" are you talking about? Is it "safe minimal", or is it "don't try this at home minimal"? I like the idea of those TFS 11R heads, but I am going to be running a stock 1992 Mustang 5.0 short block. I know I could run a shorter lift cam, but that starts to defeat some of the higher lift flow of those 11R heads (which continue to increase flow up to .600 lift according to the TFS site).
lift is not the issue-its duration that determines the p-v
I run these exact same heads and cam. It had plenty of clearance when I put it together. The 11R’s have more clearance than any other Ford head~
@@aaronliddell4280 And that was on a factory stock 302 short block?
@@supernaturalta6174 yep 👍
@@aaronliddell4280 😎That's good to know. I'll be choosing between those 11Rs and the AFR 165s.
I am curious to know how much the modified 5.0 weighed compared to the stock Coyote motor!!
Now you need to stroke both n see who wins then, make it happen Richy!! Still think it's best to mod what you have, unless the person steals a car/truck n swaps it themselves i don't see how it beats a built old skool engine in cost.. But if money is no issue, then build a big block n done.. ;)
I always liked the 5.0 push rod engine
Pushrod 351w all day heads cam intake torque monster
A cobra jet don't lose torque from stock and gains even more power up top than a boss does. You can also do l&m intake only cams and gain 20 rwhp over gen 1 mustang cams with no loss in torque so between the l&m intake only cams and cj intake you can get 50+ rwhp without losing low speed torque. Easily the best setup for a coyote in na form imo. The coyote is much better but it has so much tech on its side compared to the og engine it is absolutely ridiculous lol. It has wayyyy more rpm capabilities than a stock bottom end og 5.0 and it has way better flowing heads than even the aftermarket 11r heads did on the old motor and on top of all that is has a decent bit more compression (11:1 vs the higher than stock 9.8:1 this og motor was running) and variable cam timing which is what helps it make so much power up top and still have a nice torque down low with a broad curve. Not only that but the engine management they run is far better than what they were running on the old engines I mean the list goes on and on it has so many advantages and all of them add up to what you see here. I think its better bang for the buck easily. It would cost you more than what you can get a used coyote for to make an old 5 liter equal to a stock gen 1 coyote and even more if you want it to be able to handle 600-700 rwhp reliably like a gen 1 coyote can (even higher for gen 2 and 3) because you would need an aftermarket dart block to get those kind of numbers reliable from an og 5 liter. It's just not fair lol. The only way to give the coyote a run with a pushrod motor is have way more cubic inches and also have tech on its side like the modern gm stuff and dodge stuff. Even those usually can't beat what the coyote can do when it comes to adding forced induction to an untouched engine and making big reliable power that drives as smooth as a stock car with a shit load more power. People act like these coyotes are so expensive but when it comes down to it to get these cheaper engines to do what the coyote can do you end up spending just as much or more usually trying to get those engines up to par to what the coyote is capable of right out of the box. The additional rpm they can run just isn't fair. It allows them to make so much freaking power lol. You could swap a gen 1 truck motor into a 96-04 gt pretty easily for not nearly as much money as alot think. It isn't hard to get it up to mustang specs or even beyond. The intake cams and manifold is different on the truck motor so just swap those out for a cobra jet and l&m intake only cams (900 for the pair) and you got like 2 grand into those on top of the 2 or 3 grand a nice gen 1 truck motor can be had for and you can make some damn good power even with the slightly lower compression the gen 1 truck motor runs (still 10:5.1 which isn't bad). In short the coyote does have decent bang for the buck for how capable it is.
I'm leaning more towards the coyote in my town car. I was thinking about a godzilla swap. But those are actually difficult to find at junkyards right now, being how new they are. The ones i can find are $10k plus for a complete pullout. I found a gen1 coyote compete pullout for $3200. I was thinking about it in my town car. That would be such an awesome sleeper. 🤣
the truck versions of the Coyote are even less $
I would love to put a 5.0/5.2 in my miata however with those heads its just not feasible. So i will stick to my old school 302/306 for now.
Rich, I see where you're going with this. Let's throw out some real info then.
The "They don't make them like they used to." mantra. Cars are more heavy today than just about ever before. Why? A person has a better chance of walking away from an accident in a new model Mustang than ever before. The structure of the car is engineered to resist collapse better than before but it takes more material to gain that. Therefore the car weighs more. When I talk of this, I'm talking about the cabin where people will be.
Engines make more power per displacement today than ever before...so these heavy cars can move.
"The LS makes more power!" It does, primarily because it has almost 60 more cubic inches.
Let's compare the Coyote to the LS in power per Cubic Inch, I think you might get a nasty shock. Better yet, let's build a 360 Cubic Inch Coyote and test it.
Am I saying that the Coyote is better? No. Am I saying that the LS is better? No. They both make more power than their predecessors, which I would hope so.
The absolute worst part of this whole discussion? Except for the Electronic Controls, all of this stuff has been done before. There have been refinements, but the "New Ideas" are really rehashed previous ideas.
The advent and refinement of computer controlled fuel injection and ignition timing makes these previous ideas more manageable and possible to actually pull of for the customer.
What will I go with in my 67 Merc Cougar? Probably a 302, finding a 351w has proven to be much more difficult than I thought. And I don't want to be part of the "Just drop an LS in it!" crowd.
Why is the dyno so wavy? Intake resonance?
It's crazy that the coyote can make 2 horsepower per cubic inch with relative ease. More impressive than the LS for its size but also more expensive
Ive come across running f150 coyotes with 70k miles with harness as low as $1000 bucks in some facebook groups 🤷 so the stuff is out there, just dont expect to be tripping over them at the lkq at this point in their lifespan, most are still out there running 😉 besides, brand new crate engines are like what 6500? Same as an ls3 crate. So there goes the "ls is cheaper" myth (which im sure somebody will argue, like always)
I seen coyote crate for 8k and ls3 for 5k .. I rather have a ls3 all day
@@Ws6Ms of course you would say that, youre an ls fanboi. Its even your screen name. Youd argue LS no matter what to your death. But the fact of the matter is they are similar price in the same trim (ie a complete engine) and the coyote makes more power.... So.... Yeah 🤷 dont know what you are looking for here.
@@banneddamn lmao no they don't
@@Ws6Ms well stay uninformed then 🤷👍
Exactly the same reason why the 6.0 stroker SBF Didn't make the same or more power then the 6.0 LS Newer Technically.
Crazy to think the F35 would never be able to intercept one of these because it ain’t fast enough because Lockheed Martin decided to put a turbocharged inline 4 in instead of a nice big American V8 like what’s in the f15. The concept of performance with airplanes is similar with cars except cars don’t fly yet
😂😂😂
But even cheaper to run a carb on that 302 would probably get it closer to coyote power?
I wish I could fit a coyote in my '64! that would be sweet!
Just add a 100 shot to the old 302. The Coyote needs a high pressure, ECU controlled fuel/ignition system to run with very limited aftermarket support not to mention the transmission. A high school kid can still afford to build a 302
Limited aftermarket support? Lol.
What about comparing a coyote to a 351?
I would like to see a test of the cyclone 3.7.
500+whp stock internals. A friend of mine has one with a Turbo slapped on it.
Great gains but I'm not really seeing that massive gain in RPM Ford guys claim DOHC gives over OHV. Most of your modded LS stuff peaks also peaks in the mid-6k range. To me the Coyote is just another 'tier' you move to when your budget increases.
The Coyotes go to 8000
I am still into fox 5.0 for the sound, 400HP is more than you will ever need for the street and, they barely hooked up stock so..... The sound tho... Long tubes with mac flo path (super 44's are close), off road x pipe and a nice cam, it is literally music. Coyotes and LS's sound bizarre, and they sound worse when cammed up
How much heavier is the coyote mustang than the 5 l mustang??? How much more expensive is the coyote mustang than the 5 l mustang???
Right on
I Choose coyote. Out of the box is powerful enough to beat modified ford 5.0. Yes it's hard to find and more expensive than junkyard stock 5.0 but if you find one it's lot cheaper than buying 5.0 plust cost of modifying it.
It's just my opinion because I love the stock more than modified one. I'm sure you realize that adding more power would sacrifice something like fuel efficiency, rideability, and reliability. So if I want to have 400hp with the reliability and rideability like a stock, coyote is the "my" answer.
It's just my opinion tho, I'm sure you fun guys probably said different think such as "but you get more fun with the 5.0 rather than stockie coyote." Yeah yeah sure.
I feel the green screen chilling idle behind him is a gigantic missed opportunity.
Coyote also has a smooth idle, 30-40% better fuel efficiency (a guess), much, much lower emissions, and a much higher RPM redline.
Lol it is betterbon fuel....lol it is NOT 40% better on fuel.
302 in a mustang 1993- 23 mpg.
40% improvement would be. 9.2.
No way a Coyote is getting 31 mpg?
@@internationaldynoauthority693 NOT SO FAST DYNO MAN! I didn't say stock 225 H.P. old school 5.0L (which in my experience on a 1987 was barely 20 MPG if you took it easy). Apples to Apples, the modified TFS heads, cam, intake etc..5.0L.would be lucky to get 15 MPG. (and not idle smoothly, meet 1990's emissions, or redline at 7500 RPMs). A stock Coyote puts out way more H.P. than the modified old 5.0L and gets around 25 MPG if you take it easy. That's 66.67% better gas mileage than the modified old 5.0L by my reckoning.
@@snowcrest7863 nope. Now you are just "trump'ing" it making up stories and figures to "fit" your scenario.
Good luck -Enjoy
@@internationaldynoauthority693 my coyote got 22 in city on a good day
Now how much to put the coyote in a foxbody?
Can a coyote motor be carbureted?
F-150 block on eBay for $2500-3000. That’ll get you like 2/3 of the way to equal output with the OG lol
As much as I've loved my pushrod 302's and 5.0's, at even close to 400 hp, those engines are on borrowed time. At that level, the coyote is warrantied by Ford and not even stressed.
You are the first person with sense to point that out, the stock coyote could make 250,000 miles at that power level. Good luck even getting 50,000 miles out of a 400hp 5.0 pushrod. You would need tranny work as a must. The days of pushrod engines are over, gm and dodge are finally giving up on them.
400HP? have you followed 5.0s until yesterday? OK sure 👌 👍
400-hp 5.0L would last forever-it just doesn't make as much as a stock Coyote
Totally stock Gen 3 on E85 makes close to 700. Keep it N/A and you can beat it mercilessly until the end of time. I would spend the $$ on the Coyote.
a totally stock gen 3 Yote makes 700 hp na?
@@richardholdener1727 long tubes (1 7/8) 3" exhaust, intake tube and E85, I've seen automatics put down 550 rwhp through the 10 speed and run 10.8's @ 120. It's basically almost a formula now. They pull down C7 ZR1's all day. I think Steeda has one that has the world record for an
N/A coyote (of course that car has extensive traction mods) @ 10.7.
First like 👍
What if the compression was even between the two?
Please do a 18 and up 5.0
It's on you to buy one and ship it to Richard.
What was the exhaust setup on the Windsor 5.0?
long tubes
@@richardholdener1727Your usual 3" dyno exhaust?
Thank you for the reply and all your videos.
BUT the Coyote does not bolt into a Windsor car,, it is HUGE
Dollar to hp even if you go with a junkyard coyotte the 5.0 wins. Every one knows the 5.0 blocks dont like much more then 500hp unless you have a good tune. You can leave the 5.0 100% stock engine parts slap a cheap turbo set up on for 1 to 2k and some injectors run the engine right up to 500hp the 5.0 likes boost more then na power mods you will spend twice the money on new h,c,i and tag along items then a turbo kit. The coyotte is a great engine but its hard to find isnt cheap is a large engine for its displacement makes it hard to stuff in other cars. Now 351w junkyard engine costs about the same as a 302 and in some cases been known to take 600 to 800hp if you dont over rev them not much larger then a 302 in fact alot of 302 parts fit. For same money or less then a coyotte get a 351w 408 stroker kit nice cam and a turbo kit
I know the coyote would still win easily but I'm curious what the difference would be if the OG had the same CR as the Coyote.
5.0 F T W 💪🏾
Any mod motor you are asking for problems. Go with the 7.3