Better to use a power conditioner or straight into the wall?
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
- psaudio.com
We're often conflicted when it comes to the use of a power conditioner or just going straight into the wall socket. Paul helps us understand the differences and why. - Věda a technologie
I have an old Furman 'power factor pro' and when I started putting together my current audio system I put this Furman product to use without thinking about it (and without A/B testing). After watching this video I A/B'd the sound with and without the Furman product. My results were just the same as what this video says. I am amazed. Paul, you have great ears!. Thank you for this channel!
It'll still protect your gear from power surges.
I never thought this would make it worse but I ran my studio monitors directly into the wall and its much more vivid, thanks for the tip!
The sheer abundance of electrical engineers providing quantitative analysis in this comment section is staggering.
It is all about impedance, however, the impedance through the mains supply will generally be lower than the impedance of any power conditioner installed transformer. In addition the inductance would be vastly different. DC on the line and RFI would be far more detrimental to your system, however the better your amplifier and source quality is, the better they will have been designed to clean up these disadvantages. Generally speaking, you have to purchase the very high end power conditioners to see much of an improvement if any, my advice is to try to keep any electrical equipment which can develop noise on the line (switch mode power supplies, inc LED lighting) away from the circuits and outlets used by your audio system. Spend your hard earned money on better source, amplifiers and speakers, that’s where you will see the best results. I am a consultant electrical engineer working in the power transmission sector for 40 years, trust me, I do not have a power conditioner in my system, I do however have surge protection on my incoming distribution board to cover transient issues (high voltage spikes). Best of luck in achieving the right sound :-)
That was a pretty honest answer. Appreciate it, Paul.
I purchased your Direct Stream Power Plant 12 to replace and upgrade my trusty Quintessence power conditioner, and I could not be happier! Thank you Paul, I love your power equipment (I use several of your big, fat power cords) and I wouldn't fire up my system without your great stuff.
Richard Gray Power Company all day long...has served my system for years, will never change.
I use Panamax myself
Dedicated outlet on its own circuit is all you need. I’ve experimented with the conditioners, cables, interconnects, etc. Some products will change the sound but, none will improve the sound. Nordost, Tara Labs, Blue Jeans… cables from the product manufacturer and Blue Jeans interconnects is all anyone needs.
IMHO, everyone is better off spending time and money on room treatments. That delivers a much bigger ROI.
Paul, what about the Dectet that you still sell? I bought one a couple of years ago with an AC-3 power cable. I immediately noticed a cleaner background, but didn’t notice a loss of dynamics. I haven’t done a comparison with and without yet. Should I throw my Dectet away now?
Would love to know the same. Not spending over $750 for power distribution.
Is this a big problem in the US? US uses 120v UK 240v, US 60 Hz, UK 50 Hz. I've never tried it so can't say anything other than an educated guess. But if you've got a high end system (that beautiful turntable must be 10k plus) , in excess of 20k, surely when it's designed, built, tested, put together, if there's this 'huge haze' that is lifted by a power conditioner then it would've been back to the drawing board at the design stage? How could you sell products without an included power conditioner/ chord if they had a 'huge haze' over them?
Hi Paul I really enjoy the videos and your pleasant demeanor. So, after decades of plugging equipment into the wall outlet, or extension cords, or cheap power strips, I bought a Tripp Lite LC1200 "line conditioner", which is advertised for home theater and computer equipment. It's apparently designed to keep a steady 120 VAC and act as a protective device. I'm only running an NAD receiver with energy RC speakers for a 5.1 system, and I can't say I noticed a difference one way or another. However during Christmas when my wife had lights running all over, the line conditioner appeared to be quite active as its LED indicator fluctuated from green to amber and back again. Is this line conditioner adversely affecting my NAD receiver's performance in any way? If I were to get rid of it, is it okay to use one of those cheap GE 6 outlet surge suppressors that simply plugs into one side of an outlet turning 2 outlets into 6? Or is it better to have nothing at all and just plug the receiver directly into the wall outlet? Thanks!
great video Paul....thanks
Would be interesting to hear what Paul thinks of Audioquest's new Powerquest conditioners.
They do use aq cables
@@No_Limits_411 True.
Which is better to have thinner coil wire on the primary or the other way round? I would have thought having a thin while on the secondary would be better because you introducing a better increased electron flow through the circuit go on Paul gives us me a answer!
I just decided to try using my newer furman with my stereo setup. It’s a low watt tube amp. I want to see if it was different and it if it would help at all. I don’t know anything about electricity but it sounds so much better with the Furman it’s crazy. Not sure what this could be due to.
Hi Paul, love your videos. But what about the bewildering variety of power blocks now on the HiFi market?
Thank you!! Is this relevant for listening only? Or for sound recording as well? I'm wondering do I need a power conditioner for my Mic Preamp hardware and sound card (Apollo Twin X)?
Can it be that the whole topic of clean power is a bigger thing in 110V then in 230V?
I heared a system with and without regenerator here in Europe, and couldn't hear much of a difference.
For me personally with my system the results are the exact opposite of what Paul says.
I am using an iFi Powerstation. I've been testing going back and forth between the power conditioner and straight into the wall with my amp in the last few days and the results for me personally are much better with the power conditioner.
I am not saying Paul is wrong, maybe some older power conditioners weren't as good as some of the newer designs, and I am sure a power re generator is the way to go if you can afford one, however conditioned power vs straight to the wall I think is very much system dependent and results can very quiet a bit from one person to another.
Best to do an in home trial with your own system and let your ears decide what sounds better to you.
Was the line a shared line or dedicated?
@@levijessegonzalez3629 It's a shared line
@@spectralmeat Well it could be because it's a shared circuit...
If it was a dedicated power line, the results usually are very very dramatically better.
I'm currently running 3 dedicated lines to my Studio and also I would suggest looking at high quality receptacles as these make a difference supposedly.
there's a guy on ebay right now selling some HBL5262 receptacles (audiophile approved receptacle) for very cheap. I bought 5 for 37$ shipped
@@levijessegonzalez3629 Thank you for the reply. I am planning to run a dedicated line to where my stereo is when funds allow. It is a finished basement so running a line will be a bit pricey, but ultimately it will be the best option.
I will look into the receptacles, thanks for the heads up!
@@spectralmeat It is pricey especially if it's not a new build. (thats why Im thankful I just learned all this literally right before I am about to wire up my place).
However the good news is, you might like the dedicated line so much, that you can sell your conditioners and that might pay for the line or at least part of it.
If you do, definitely buy a hospital grade receptacle. The HBL5262 is great because it's solid brass contacts and connections which is highly conductive
Fantastic Episode.. Now I have a Panamax M5300-PM.. But its not connected to ur type of audio equipment.. Its connected to a LG 65" OLED and LG Atmos Sounbar .. an Xbox One X.. a Tivo connected to Antenna not cable.. and a 4k Sony Bluray player..
In my case do u still suggest going directly into the wall instead of my Panamax..
I understand where he's coming from. But how you going to protect your system? I live in California and this state has brownouts all the time this is the type of stuff that destroys equipment so yeah I'd rather have it plugged into my panamax and Elizabeth a little bit of sound quality to have that level of protection to know when I have a brown out panamax shuts it off immediately
Living off grid and dealing with 12 volt batteries in our system it’s common knowledge that the larger the wire used. And we use large wire. (if you think battery cable) the less resistance. So it only makes sense that if you have more “stuff” in line you are creating resistance. First rule of thermal dynamics is you can’t destroy or create energy, but rather refocus it. So it makes complete sense that energy going through extra coils etc is refocusing (stripping away) the energy passing through it.
Back in the day, I had a P600, P300 and MANY PSAudio Outlets, Power cables etc. It was an entire new level of great sound. I wish I could afford the latest generation of bigger Power Plants. It really does make a difference.
i worked in the power supply industry as a technician and then an engineer for over three decades and during that time i was responsible for getting power supplies compliant with FCC conducted noise specs. I spent a lot of time knitting filters together to get the noise down using our Marconi spectrum analyzer.
I find running the low power gear through a 20A line filter and plugging t he power amps directly in the wall works best for me. first off I can't afford a power regenerator and the military filter I'm using has very low insertion loss at 60HZ. The signal level gear also does not draw the slugs of current that a power amp does so it cuts out any ringing that large current slugs can cause. My power amps are the M700's monoblocks and that type of design should be better at rejecting noise and the filter keeps any noise that does occur tamped down.
If I ever win the lottery I'll try out one of your regenerators.
PS Audio Power Plants start at $1500 and way less used. No need to win the lottery to get one.
I am getting randmon popping coming from my def tech 6080 towers even with everything turned off but the towers plugged in the wall.
i have a movie theater. not music
Squirrel! I friggin lost it.🤣
Hey Paul, I will run dedicated power cable straight from our fuse box, so nothing else on the circuit but my hifi equipment…. How about surge protection, do I need to clear the mains from any spikes or possible damage? 😮
Hi Paul or someone reading this ~ Can you please tell me what make, model of the audio rack behind you. Thanks much!
Kevin Deal of Upscale Audio says Audioquest's Niagra 3000 power conditioner is the real deal for clean power and dynamics. What would be the comparison with the P12 or P15 Power Plants of PS Audio? I suspect both are quality products which attack and eliminate the problem of noise in the AC line. I live in a 9 story buiding with 8 other apt. units before mine in the 15 amp circuit. My P12 makes the music more open to a higher level of enjoyment. Paul did say some power conditioners are designed properly and do provide sonic benefits without sacrificing dynamics.
@William...that guy sounds like 1 of those telemarketers...."buy one, get one free....be the first 30 callers and we'll give you.....".
He could sell anything that dude!!
What does that 1 ohm impedance on the line to the maybe cause? I do not get this impedance story. Can anyone clarify it to me please?
Is the PSaudio Dectet considered a bad idea in this context? It's not a power plant, so then should I not use it because it would rid me of some resolution?
I don’t about most power conditioner’s but the one I bought actually made the sound worst! All of a sudden the sound was brighter high are much higher? Actually gave me headaches?
I've used a handful of conditioners and wasn't happy until I tried one of the modern Furman conditioners (which are made for audio and are used in many recording studios.) I've gone back and forth several times between the wall and the Furman and the Furman stays. It cleans up the system and if there is any detriment to the sound, it's not of any significance.
my system was very noizy.guy at the music store told me to get an furman power conditioner.soon as i turned on my system noise gone clean power using ps audio jewel ac power cord.
Interesting, what model do you have or recommend? as there are few at different price points and I never gone down this route just straight from the wall
@@tothemax324 I've been pretty happy with the inexpensive PST-8D.
Without real measurements from an EMI Dirty Electricity Meter in mV, saying it cleans up the system is just based on your personal opinion. I have an expensive Furman PL-PLUS DMC Power Conditioner and the dirty electric signal in my wall outlet is 56 mV and any outlet on the Furman itself is worse at 160 mV. So yeah, according to my Greenwave EMI Dirty Electricity Meter, the Furman is NOT cleaning up the dirty electricity and actually making it worse!
@@andynonimuss6298 You can visit the Furman page or better yet write them and get frequency dependent plots showing noise reduction. If you don't trust those, I welcome you to purchase a proper network analyzer or oscilloscope with a decent probe to recreate those data. I wouldn't trust some cheesy $100 noise meter bought off the web for a full spectrum, calibrated noise analysis. They won't have the bandwidth to provide useful information.
I haven’t got there yet, I’m thinking buy expensive power cables and you plug that into the wall, how much can just a power cable do. It seems like some kind of power controller either built into the wall or plugged into the wall is needed , I’m not an electrician but aren’t the problem the uneven current that comes originally from the wall. Can just a fancy cable fix that?
Will a apc battery backup be ok to you with a Denon x4700?
I understand the concept of adding impedance would affect the ability to supply higher current to an amplifier, such as when playing strong bass notes. However, I don't understand why it would affect a subtle signal as the decay of a note from the pluck of a guitar string???
if the dynamic range is screwed all the signal is affected not only the release
What about Online UPS? I live in Bali Indonesia and the power can be very unreliable here. My entire mains first go into a power conditioner to stabalize the Voltage and then for my AV equipment I use a big Online UPS to protect it further. Sadly going straight into the wall would very quickly kill my AVR and Projector
Can't help, but Bali is beautiful
Can u plug in a guitar amp though a power conditioner
I run a Tripp-lite conditioner with actual line voltage regulation as opposed to just your usual coils and what not. Better than your average conditioner to say the least. Still considerably cheaper than a power plant of course. Unlike most conditioners I’ve used I actually don’t notice any degradation in sound quality when running only the source components off it. In fact I think it sounds better. However not so much when I attempted running the power amps themselves out of the conditioner. At this point I use it for sources only and run the amps straight into the wall and find it to be the best combination that I’ve tried. I’m not sure if it’s the simple fact that the sources draw way less current in the first place but it truly seems to clean everything up slightly without robbing the music of any critical components when using it for the sources and nothing else. Or I could just be jerking my own chain of course but I still have pretty decent hearing and don’t believe I’m suffering from a placebo effect. The difference when running the amps off the unit was immediately noticeable in what I found to be a negative way
How about digital equipment? Unless I missed it, it appears you are referring more to analog equipment, particularly an amp and maybe a preamp.
kills all
About the only digital equipment in audio are a transport and a server/computer unless you are mixing or producing. I doubt a regenerator would help. I'd be far more worried about the electrical noise coming out of a computer, than the power coming in. It is very difficult to get good digital audio from a computer.
DAC's obviously have an analogue output stage. I use a medical grade filter on my DAC, and it seems to help alot, and does not have the effects Paul is talking about. I removed the filter from the pre-amp since it made things worse. It is a toss up with my power amp, so I removed it since it served no purpose.
I arrived at the same conclusion as Paul, it all about input vs output impedance.
If your referring to usng a digital voltmeter to test and see how good your AC power is your using the wrong equipment. Proper line testing equipment is very specialized and needs a way of logging what's going on over time. Voltagle level is only one of many things to be measured and logged. If you accuse your pwer company of supplying defetive power they'll bring out a little box, plug it into one of your wall sockets and log the line for a week or so. They may, or may not, be able to monitor that remotely.
@@wilcalint No, no, I mean like DAC's and CD Players, I don't see how a line conditioner negatively affects those. I could only see potential benefit. Amps, preamps, yes, I get it. I have my amp and preamp connected to the wall directly but my DAC and Upsampler connected to my Furman conditioner.
@@markwilson913 Really? It restricts dynamics of a DAC?
I like Paul and especially his demeanor. Paul uses 1997-98 as examples for his experience with line conditioners. What Paul neglects to mention among other things is that like any other cmponent there are superior and inferior line condtioners. What Paul also doesn't mention is that finding superior line conditioners that actually work as intended is like looking for a needle in a haystack vs the many that that would be classified as inferior e.g. those that do nothing or induce their own sonic harm and for which there are many. In fact, in my limited experience, the more popular the name brand, generally the more inferior the performer. In my limited experience, superior line conditioners are easily the 2nd greatest sonic improvement one can achieve for a given playback system. In my case, the ones I use are passive (draw no current to themselves), dedicated, and bi-directional filtering. I've used several models for the past 20 years. Once you've heard what superior line condtioners can do for a system, your tolerance to listening to a system without superior line conditioning is limited to about 10 - 15 min max.
Interestingly you don't mention what are the good ones since you likely have a hunch that it's all in your head.
@@hartyewh1 siily goose.
@@ToadStool942 Still not putting your word on anything...
I live in a condo in New York City. The quality of sound I get by plugging my Yamaha A-S801 amp into a Monster HTS-400 power conditioner is unquestionably better than the sound I get if I plug it directly into the wall. I have checked this on three different occasions and each time there is clearly more noise in the sound I get when I plug into the wall. The noise results in listener fatigue much faster than if I plug into the power conditioner. Through the conditioner the sound is much more smooth and refined. As for dynamics, I honesty hear no difference whether I plug into the wall or into the conditioner.
I say all this to suggest that everyone's situation (room, gear, electricity, etc) is different so it is important to check for yourself. Time and time again, I have read online that amps should only be plugged into the wall. In fact I have read it so much that I could have easily taken this to be an objective truth. However, I like to keep an open mind and hear for myself. I suggest you do the same.
do you think it might help, to plug in everything else to the power conditioner, and leave the power amp alone?
@@allansh828 No Allan, it does not help. I've tried what you suggest at different times of day, different times of the year. And each time I compare, I find that I get better, cleaner, less noisy sound by plugging everything into the Monster HTS-400 Power Conditioner.
@@zaoria123 thanks for telling me. There are different sockets on power conditioners. At least one for high current and others for linear current. I guess you are supposed to plug Class A amp into linear filter?
I have a headphone amp, which draws mere 0.15 A constantly. The linear filter sounds coarse and dynamic and the high current filter sounds smoother but bloated. I have to choose between two problems. I should probably try another power cord, since my AQ NGR Z3 is made for power amp. Maybe getting into high end audio is asking for trouble after all.
@@allansh828 No problem, Allan. On my Power Conditioner, all receptacles are equal. They all filter and clean the power. Good luck in your audio journey!
Some of the problems caused by power conditioners include high energy spikes (causing contact arcing, which resembles a clicking sound), lose of detail due to broadband noise, or distortion in the mains supply due to industrial loads. Many of the effects produced by these include bloated bass, distortion, brightness in the high frequency, three dimensional depth reduction and poor imaging. You might be thinking that you don't hear any of these things, so your system must not be effected, well once you add a mains cable, all will become apparent, suddenly your system will open up with superior dynamics, tighter bass, sweeter treble and improved depth and imaging. All this can be achieved by simply using a mains cable on one component, and you will hear the difference immediately. Naturally adding them to all components will offer the best sound!
Can you let me know the model of the cartridge and tonearm?
Joseph Sequeira
Hi Joseph. It’s a JMW Classic 12” 3D-printed tonearm, but the cart I’m not sure about. Paul did mention it was a Lyra cart, but I obviously am not aware of exactly which model. Here’s a link to Fremer’s very favorable review of the deck: www.stereophile.com/content/vpi-classic-direct-drive-signature-turntable
Have a good one, Joseph! 🎶🔊👍
Having done live sound as well, the best is to get as clean and solid of connections as possible. Thus lowering the impedance of both source and drain. The more stuff involved, the greater the likelihood of noise and losing impact. There is a Furman box that's supposed to lower the source impedance of the AC, had one on a guitar amp that had internally regulated supplies so the autotransformer things wouldn't help. Haven't tried it on the hi-fi system. Perhaps I should dig it out, although I think it's just storage capacitors.
I always plug my high current amplifier directly into the wall....fairly obvious here. But, I plug my pre-pro into a power conditioner because my (basic) understanding is that this component draws much less current to work so that it can easily get what clean juice it needs from the conditioner. Is that incorrect?
You are probably correct. Especially if it is a power conditioner for audio equipment.
That is the best policy. Power amps do not require power conditioning and work far better directly off the raw AC line which provides a CONTINUOUS low impedance source. Many re-generators claim to offer even lower source impedance than the power line and that's not a lie. However they can only do that for a limited time then the power supply within the re-generator must recover. For brief transients with a poor AC supply I guess they may offer some benefits. But you have to weight in the cost.
@@andydelle4509 large power regenerators are good for amps, but they are insanely expensive.
I run a Furman SPR-20i. I don't do it for the sound, I do it to protect my expensive equipment from the iffy power supplied by my local power company.
I agree!
Paul, before you even said a thing about it, I thought, wow, that’s a beautiful turntable, and with the Lyra cart?! Get outta here! That VPI Direct Drive is the deck of my dreams, but at $15K plus a cart worthy of it...I don’t think it’s gonna happen.
Anyhoo, I agree with you about the direct into the wall thing, but I do have a Mistral power condition that was recommended by Sean from Zero Fidelity, which I had my rig plugged into for quite a while. Then, just as you mentioned, after a while, I started to notice exactly what you’re talking about with the notes not quite making it to the finish line. I also have a full house surge protector, so I’m kinda banking on that, but if there’s a storm a comin’, I unplug my system from the wall.
Hey, Paul! Wanna go for a ride! Huh, huh?! Do ya boy?! “Look! A squirrel!” Haha!
Thank you, Paul. That was a great answer.
@ Nick....he didn't say what Lyra cart. Perhaps he's not overly familiar with their range. Often wanted a Lyra cart, but settled on a Koetsu a few years ago. 🐸
nostro1001
Yeah, I don’t think he’s too familiar with the line either, but that’s ok. Paul’s awesome and that VPI deck is a beauty.
I’d like to try a Lyra cart too, but I certainly don’t look at a Koetsu as settling! lol. Years ago, I used to own an older AQ 404 cart, which I believe actually became Lyra (could be wrong), but I’ve been using a Goldring as of late. I’ve also tried a Benz Micro, among others, but would really like to try out a Soundsmith cart too. I like Lederman’s ideas and passion for phono carts. 🎶🙂
@@NickP333 Can't say I'm familiar with Soundsmith cartridges.
I'm surprised Paul didn't go with VPI avenger or better still an avenger reference. Given it's just a showroom piece and not in his home, the silver of the avenger would have been a better match with all the PS Audio gear. Not to mention it's arguably a better tt.
I haven't gone back to the vid to pause the video and check the tonearm, assume one of their 3d printed designs. At these sort of levels, I'm sure it's well matched especially given it was set up by Mat.
I do love high end TT engineering, but don't think there's much to the sound variations of the table itself, that comes from the cartridge and perhaps tonearm.
nostro1001
Yeah, aesthetically those other VPI decks would’ve been better, but that’s VPI’s newest direct drive model, which I’m sure you already know. I’d personally take the DD deck over the belt drive models, but when it comes to most VPI decks, I don’t think you can really go wrong.
That particular turntable comes with a JMW Classic 3-D printed 12” tonearm.
I think once you get to that level of performance, once again, I don’t think you can go wrong with belt drive or DD, but I absolutely agree with you that the tonearm and Cartridge have the biggest effect, but it’s of course gotta be set up correctly too, or you’re not going to benefit from the potential high level of performance from that level of build quality.
Oh, btw: sound-smith.com/
I bought a PS Audio Stellar PowerPlant3 a few months ago. I did not believe it could make a difference. In fact, I was convinced it would do nothing to my sound. I bought it only because I'd never tried anything like it and it had a 15-day return. I was shocked when I plugged it in and it made a sudden improvement to all my digital devices. So, every day during that 15-day return window I listened closely to make up my mind. But every day the sound was noticeably better overall. I've kept it in my system gladly.
The only way to actually test any differences to do a double blind experiment. The placebo effect is strong, only a fool would assume it doesn't apply to themselves.
That is sweet 15 day return. What is the break in time 100 hours
Also for fun call PS A say something is wrong with the product I need to send it in.
Now, Sit back a listen
To PS A.
the producer max martin is using a simple furmann power conditionner with the protools hd system you can listen to taylor swift backstreet boys katy pery i mean the quality is there i don't get your release issues you heard i mean we don't test the signal with our ears you can use instruments and a test tone
The DC filter that supra has is a filter that is very good, but still a filter. And if you have to use a power block, because you have too few outlets, you will have to get some better power blocks etc to avoid the problem with low quality power blocks. Bad power blocks destroys good sound. Especially for amplifiers.
I cannot follow how a line filter would remove high frequencies and overtones ... I think Paul must have placed the filter in the speaker lines ! They go in the 120 vac lines !!
At 66khz. Makes a world of difference. Isn't your system "resolving" enough?
STEREO JUNKY ~ 66Khz ?? the HF drivers don't respond any where near this frequency...
our power is REAL power 250 vac 50 Hz and the currents are half what they are in the States ... Power conditioners are only of some use on 120 vac lines due to the variation of voltage drop arising from the heavy currents ! You guys should change from 120 v to 250 and come of age lol 😂... oh and get Metric too !!
@@janinapalmer8368 Are you playing break up songs again? 250vac is not anything children should be playing with. Stick to whats safe. Paul has 350 tweeters in his "reference" system with new Basshead woofers. He says a conditioner effects the "decay" of tones on good recordings. Its like the fluff on your "fairy cake".
@Fat Rat I know, I remember the men at work song.. How you guys thunder while eating that Vegemite stuff. Thunder=farting?
@Fat Rat No you Aussie, its "Plunder and Chunder"
So thats robbery and puking, maybe even farting, too!
What was the video about?
I still think your too easily influenced by the power of suggestion. A little series resistance in the mains line would effect peak power but that should be about it. All those super high grade DC supplies give you all the quiet you need. The iron core transformers inherently filter out most line noise you may be loosing sleep over. Those oversized capacitors do the rest. The loss of ambiance or whatever would still lead me to keep looking for a quantifiable explanation and solution. If you think about it, the IRS speakers were as close to perfection as you could get but wait, we've upgraded the woofer system so now, now they're right. The only way we can find contentment is to believe we've reached perfection. Then reality sets in. Drat.
Sadly your power re-generators just introduce more stuff that does basically nothing but introduce reliability problems. I suppose it could boost the mains voltage a little but so what. I'd be curious to know what the carbon footprint would be for the manufacturing of one unnecessary power re-generator.
Back to the in-line common mode line filter... I think what your saying is that the line filter some how would effect either the overall sensitivity or maybe slew rate of the system. Hum?
if one is concerned about the carbon "footprint" of a manufactured item, it would behoove one to contemplate why he does not live like Diogenes or simply go the whole hog and cease one's own 80 year long conversion of oxygen into carbon dioxide.
@@grandrapids57 Who's one?
@@chrisharper2658 If you mean by "Who's 'one'" then "one" acts as the generic, universal pronoun in this instance, and by necessity that includes thee.
We are talking about a Clean Alternating Sine Wave.
sure the power from the pole is fairly clean.
what's inside your building probably affects the quality more than anything.
example: I have an electric baseboard heater, when ever its on I can clearly hear an increased Hum
thru my audio system.
preventing induced line noise from your existing electrical crap you have pugged in around you
may be a better solution than working to remove what your crap is doing to your power.
yeah straight wall is night and day on on my KEF LS50w's. Class D may be more picky with cheap power strips too I could be wrong on that though
I think fully analogue class A or AB is more sensitive to both radiated and conducted noise from the power source.
@@QoraxAudio
Class A or AB does not define power supply type inside an amp. It can suddenly be SMPS (Emotiva XPA products).
@@alexanderbelov6892 Did you reply to me? Because I didn't mention PSU typologies.
@@QoraxAudio
I mentioned SMPS because it does not give any chance to source line noises to reach AB amp schematics. While if SMPS is properly filtered itself it has very low noise floor to provide SNR of about 120dB.
Only linear PSU like huge transformer, diode bridge and filtering may pass something from source line.
@@alexanderbelov6892 Same applies to linear PSUs - the transformer provides galvanic isolation against noise.
PSU typology is a non-issue... it's the quality of the design and its implementation that matters.
Like your power amplifier should have lowest possible output impedance for best performance, same actually goes for your power cabling to the amplifier. A power conditioner that adds impedance by a coil I series with the wire is like a longer power cable and adds “elasticity” in the power the amplifier can consume, which can hurt peak performance.
In the case of isolation transformer, I found that the bigger the power rating the more open the sound is, yeah, I think it has to do with impedance
What about Monster power avs 2000 ???
Once I plugged myself into the wall and it was amazing! People around me had never heard such a clean and realistic reproduction of Deep Purples Child in time before! 😛
so an automatic voltage regulators is not essential?
In order to answer this question we must know if there is a lot of noise in the wall contact or not. if you live near an industrial area then you may have noise. Ask the electrician if he has the equipment to measure noise!
If you have low noise that most people have then you will notice no difference with a power coditioner. You should also have high-end sound system before there is any point in buying something like that.
The weakest part of a sound setup is speakers !!!
within the last year i have experimented with power cables and a device called DC Blocker. my conclusion is that they do make a difference and as you have indicated it all depends on how resolving your system is. i can tell you that i wont be going back to standard power cords.
The most interesting power conditioning system I ever worked with involved a motor, a flywheel and a generator. The motor was driven from the line feed, I think it was 240vac 3-phase. That was connected by a shaft to the generator. Lets assume that was a 240vac 3-phase generator. Attached to the shaft was a flywheel. That thing was pretty tough and was used to stabilize the feed power to a critical computer system. It was not designed to keep things going when line feed was lost. Believe it or not it was in a office building in downtown Tulsa OK.
@@wilcalint amazing
very good explanation of sound affection from the power consitioner. certainly umdesired effect. I'm in the process of testing some power cables. I have recntly tried out wireworld electra 7 which is power conditioning cable. first day I got all that Paul said that power condionters take. the other day, the sound was so big that I concluded that it is too good for my system and room.
This makes my imagination run crazy. Just imagine a large heavy flywheel with both motor and generator physically attached. Drive it at 3600rpm and keep the speed rock solid stable using feedback from the output generator to control how much extra drive is needed to keep the speed stable so you get a solid 60hz. There would be a limit to the power available but it would be good clean power up to that limit. Plus there is no reason why such a unit couldn't be flat-out steam-punk beautiful. Silent would be the trick, but with good bearings, maybe even magnetic ones, oh what a work of art that would be.
What i did was (i think) a lot simpler, modify equipment to run directly from batteries, no fancy gear, some diy, some recycled, but a lot of reading. Every peace of equipment you own runs on DC, the AC current gets rectified to DC internally on the equipment power suply, i started with the source, got a passive cooling SSD laptop, run a dac from lithium battery (here you have to bring down the voltage from 8.4~7.6v to 5v, this is done by a diy linear regulator with a cuple of 1F 5,5v caps, just because i had them laying around), and im currently modifying the amplifier (shitty 90's hifi class AB) changing caps and getting rid of the transformer and rectifier circuit, it's by no mean close to what you can get from a hi end well-know brand equipment, but living in Argentina makes those equipment impossible to get, not even talking about paying for it, we cant even see this stuff on hi fi shops...
@@bereniceantinori Hey, if you can get what you are doing to work for you, then I say BRAVO!! :-) GOAL!!
@@foxpup I have no B plan, so it works or i quit listening to music LOL. Jokes aside plan B is moving to New Zealand in 2 o 3 years, work and buy a pair of harberth speakers with some nice AMP :D
@@bereniceantinori wishing you the best :-)
@@bereniceantinori I think there are battery power supplies in audio if you search. there was a preamp or phono stage maker that used batteries for power which were recharged . I suppose this battery power provided cleaner power free from mains noise and RFI/EMI but obviously if it a battery supply was a good solution every hi end audio company would be using it by now.
Do surge protector power strips have a negative effect on audio?
As long as it uses 12 AWG wire and outlets with good tension like hospital grade ones and has no inductors or capacitors in it then no it won't effect the sound , where as while power conditioners will remove noise the inductors and capacitors in it cause the voltage and current will be out of phase which will negatively effect the audio.
@@leekumiega6576 Thanks
I think a list of criteria should be developed to aid someone as to if a power conditioner would be helpful. IMO, I believe that vintage amplifiers/preamps may be able to mitigate a somewhat "dirty" electrical supply better than present day equipment due to the fact that most of the old stuff used big iron core power transformers, large filtering capacitors which simply stored huge amounts of potential power waiting to be tapped by the demand of the speakers. The simple fact that big filter caps just sat there with a nice big charge in them pretty much smoothed out any noise or fluctuating input power line issues. The new stuff, some being Class D using switching power supplies, may be a bit more dependent on the quality and quantity of the AC power from the wall. These types of amplifiers use smaller filters caps, and depend on the switching power supply to instantly supply large current demands when needed by the speakers. So, the power supply has a sort of a governor in it much like say a lawn mower engine, to keep a constant stable output. If a transient (tall grass) comes along, the "governor" attempts to provide instant power. It has to hit up the mains (supply) from the wall outlet. If the mains can't supply that instant hit, the amp could struggle generating the transient the speakers are asking for. I'd also would believe that if one lives in an apartment, or high rise building with a bizzillion electrical circuits loaded with who knows what, I'd definitely look into a good robust conditioner. I, on the other hand, live in a semi rural area, where the pole transformer feeds 3 homes, and have a newer 200 amp service, well grounded, and stable, I may be able to get away without a conditioner. The only thing I have a hard time understanding, is Paul's explanation of how a conditioner affects the nuances of the musical passages. You would think getting the purest power available would be the ticket to the best sound? IE: actually using batteries to power an amp (NOT using any circuitry). If the B+/B- rails need say 65 volts, you string up enough cells to get that voltage both +/- supply, etc. I've done it on a smaller scale powering a 40wpc old skool stereo amp once. It did work!
Curt Chase
Yeah, Curt. I don’t know if you saw the vid of Danny Richie’s rig, which he runs fully on battery power, and Danny is definitely in the know.
I’ll try and find the link to the vid if ya haven’t seen it. It’s pretty damn cool.
Have a good one, Curt! 🎶👍
My experience has been the opposite: Maybe it’s because I live in a big apartment complex, but I couldn’t get the best of my equipment until I decided to upgrade my power cords, and add a Shunyata Denali. It was simple a game changer.
Nice VPI plug ,
You have a ton of our president in you. Ask a question . Statr talking about when on the Detroit Lions Team
Okay, so somebody has to get an oscilloscope and show me how a power conditioner or regenerator affects the output of the power supply of a high end component. Then they need to show me how this change if any translates to an actual differance in the components output that can be heard. All of this needs to be validated in a double blind test of both the auditory and the visual (with oscilloscope) results.
Yes, a direct drive turntable!
*Wise choice!*
You already have messed up impedance if you're using surge protection and RCD....
It is about protecting electronics, use for smart tv and computer. Enough said.
He literally referred to putting the audio signal through a power conditioner. That folks, is what is known as implicit bias(in audio).
Negative resistance material doesn’t exist, anything between equipment and power grid will increase impedance, if you look them as a whole system. If power grid can’t feed your amp properly, it won’t feed your power plant for sure.
If 30kV•50A power grid with last mile 500kW transformers array cannot feed your amp it probably produces light and heat for a skyscraper instead of sound.
I think every country should have power conditioners available but unfortunately that's not the case. It seems that they're only available in US and Canada. Don't see Furman and Panamax selling their power conditioners in other countries which is a real shame. I'm just using a cheap surge protector plug.
There is a really fab power conditioner that does better than mains re-generators and from a well established high end company who have done it properly :-)
Do tell... APC perhaps?
What if a power surge or a lightning ⚡ strike occur and fries your $5k rack?
Blind tests have been done. 30 listening tests, and only 3 times the power conditioner was plugged in. The audiophiles listening to it said that 20 of those 30 runs were conditioned 😂
Let's have a blind test and find out if it is nonsense or not .
Agree, double blind test, where nor the listener or the technician knows what cable or conditioner is in the system.
Amps should go straight into the wall. Period. Get whole-house surge protection. Otherwise, conditioners are just power strips in boxes to provide more outlets for your components, which it's fine. Just don't overspend because it's a waste of money.
Every power conditioner etc is compressing dynamics... Clears up the sound, but dynamics are very hurt...
vessk000 I can understand analog equipment, especially a power amp, but how about digital? A conditioner isn’t compressing the dynamics of digital units which are drawing much less power, correct?
@@sean_heisler I said it about the amplifier, if it is connected to such unit.
I did the test.
I bought a passive line conditioner and connected my headphone amp and DAC into it. I used a source that was battery powered running USB into the DAC; volume stayed constant as source was turned to 90% and amp volume set to 40%. I can say I noticed a difference with my higher end headphones (especially if they were planar drivers.) Nothing earth shattering but there is a difference to my ear. I also did this for friend where I would change the power source with him not knowing which I was plugged into and he also noticed a difference and after a couple songs could pick out which I was connected to (until I plugged one into the conditioner and one into the wall to mess with him.)
DACs usually have power filtering (including power control microchip) to provide noise floor (no signal) of about -140dB to -150dB. So not clear how any external power filters can improve it.
Noise comes from headphone preamp only.
Great salesman....make sense
Additionally power plants cost 4-5 times the cost of a good power conditioner. Go figure lol
Your regeneration proses does the same to my playback system bright and non-musical
your get way better results conditing your rooms Acoustics .
Acoustics is easy to over-do. A very furnished room will often have the right amount of diffusion and reflection to sound alive enough. especially mid sized room is fairly easy. Larger rooms might be more difficult. speaker placement, and coupling or decoupling of speakers is more important than room acoustics.
Shielded high quality power cable on an IGR is all you should need.
In approximately 1990 while working as an electrician we encountered computers in the office spaces. They were a brand new technology that completely changed offices overnight. But the teething process was not as simple as expected. The first problem was an old style photocopier. I threw an oscilloscope on that line, and it was like a jagged road. From those early hard lessons we learned to isolate circuits, a necessity in these modern times. Yes, definitely yes, the electricity that comes out of the wall is dirty.
I run a studio in my basement and because of high EMI frequencies I get in my basement. A power conditioner is the only solution that I have found to prevent radio signals coming out of my speakers when recording guitar haha. Maybe someone will read this and have a better idea. Open to suggestions :)
I run an Ear science conditioner on Dac and preamp with power amps plugged into the wall -is it perfect?-NO- does it on balance improve SQ for people who dont have 10k on a re generator?-YES.
Easely distracted, drug flashbacks. Hilarious.
Joe Davenport
Ha! You read his book too, huh?
tried loads myself rubbish stay well clear dynamics gone
Just not sure that I buy this explanation as anything but a means to sell his $10,000 power conditioners. Anything could add such a minuscule minute level of impedance to the line, including things like a basic surge protector, which you need unless you want to risk your stuff getting fried. Speakers just don't need that much electricity, certainly not enough that a power conditioner would cause an amplifier to be gasping for breath. As long as electricity is getting to the amp, it has the power to do what it needs to do. Resistance in the line has the effect of lowering voltage, which is why extension cords can only be so long for a given gauge/thickness, because current (amps) starts going up to compensate. But as long as the voltage drop isn't too significant, or results in more amps being carried than the wire can handle (which a conditioner would not cause), I just don't see how it would result in an amplifier failing to reproduce certain components of the signal it's getting from an AVR or DAC. Perhaps the high-frequency noise that these conditioners remove is perceived by Paul as definition in the treble, but it's certainly not doing anything to harm a power amp's dynamics (unless the amp is simply huge, and the conditioner is too small for the load).
I think Garth Powell would disagree with you, at least somewhat.
Maybe Niagara product line from audioquest are the rare power conditioners Paul mentioned as working !
I’m gonna be far more radical on this then Paul is.
I have at least 20 more years experience dealing with crap line power then Paul does. First 99% of consumers have no idea of the quality of the wall socket power they get. It can be horrific yet your system plays just fine. Today. Then in a few months the Receiver, Preamp, Amp, DAC all or some don’t power up anymore.
You kinda have to make a rough estimate what your risk is. If you’ve a moderate investment, and willing to lose it, some or all, go ahead and plug it naked into the wall socket. If you’ve invested 10’s of thousands of $$$ into your system. Do something, anything. A power strip with “protection” is a joke. Do something. One of Pauls Power Plants as a start would be a really good start.
If you live in something like a 50 year old apartment building with window mounted air conditioning you’ve got s..t power.
Power strip protection.
Common power strips have devices in them to protect mostly against “spikes” in the line. They absorbe the energy and dissipate it as heat. And that many times in just 10’s of milliseconds. They do that one time. The second 10,000vdc spike coming down the line 100ms after the first spike goes right into your components power supply and they have to deal with it. And many times they do that by self destructing.
Power line used as a LAN/WAN
Most power utilities today use digital communication on their distribution system to “read the meters”. Don’t you think for a second that that digital noise doesn't end up in your cherished DAC.
Your sharing a power line transformer with three of your neighbors. One of them is using one of those power line LAN devices. Or they have one of those plug in the wall video baby monitors. Don’t you think for a second that that digital crap doesn't end up in your cherished DAC.
Worst of the worst
You live in an older Apartment building with a common air conditioning system. And it’s getting old. Like 40 years old. One day when the HVAC motor turns off, not on, but immediately the motor seizes, throws a massive common mode spike into the grounding system of the buildings power distribution wiring. You come home to find your treasured DAC for some reason does not turn on anymore. Or where the DAC was is a little pile of burnt charcoal.
I wonder if Pauls Power Plants self destruct to protect whatever is connected to them?
I live in a 60 year old apartment. And the power is crap.... :)
Bill Kenney you can get a dac for £100 that measures beyond human hearing.
Required reading for everyone on this thread:
This makes no sense (to me). A 120VAC "power conditioner" should not effect your "audio fidelity" one way or the other. It only filters the noise (if any) on the 120VAC line and protects gear against overvoltage, spikes and brown outs. A "power conditioner" does nothing for the voltages delivered by the audio gear's power supply and transformers, and your gear's power supply should be ripple free and clean or your manufacturer needs to redesign their very expensive gear. How does the nominal 120VAC line contribute to the audio gear's "fidelity"? Now, fancy audio cables, yep 100% scam. Am I missing something? You can't be "conditioning" your audio ins & outs (LOL). However, still love the content. Sorry if I missed the point here.
Being disabled, I don't have the money for a power plant despite understanding how they work and believing they do actually work as described. My system is fairly modest so I probably wouldn't hear the difference.
Jason Brigham Paul himself has said in the past concerning his Power Plants that one of those should be one of the last things you get. Better to upgrade your components first.
I'm "straight into the wall" right now. At least I'm using hospital grade outlets and plugs. Can't afford a power re-generator right now.
Before the Rant just plug amp in wall socket sure sound changes with PC but afterwards it gets old
Also let's talk about the $750.00 BS charge
Or Hush. No way ???
Cleaning up "dirty electric" is usually negligible to zero in the vast majority of so-called power conditioners. I have an expensive Furman PL-PLUS DMC Power Conditioner and the dirty electric signal in my wall outlet is 56 mV and any outlet on the Furman itself is worse at 160 mV. So yeah, according to my Greenwave EMI Dirty Electricity Meter, the Furman is NOT cleaning up the dirty electricity and actually making it worse!
3:00
You can even put a dimmer on the powerline. No difference in audio quality (source: Audio Science Review, Amir)
Please don't do that, not if you're concerned with audio quality.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudioas an electrical engineer I believe in science. What's wrong with that?
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio And I will sell my Stellar Strata first thing tomorrow. Not concerned with audio quality.