Whiplash - Family Dinner
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- čas přidán 16. 11. 2015
- This scene from Damien Chapelle's Whiplash is discussed in episode 224 of the Scriptnotes podcast. Pay particular attention to how effortlessly Chazelle sets up the dynamic between Andrew's father and uncle, and how the scene's blocking keeps the focus (and eyelines) centered on Andrew.
"You think Carlton football is a joke? Come play with us"
"Four words you will never hear from the NFL"
Masterpiece of a line 🤣
omg i am so dumb. until i saw this comment i was always confused because "you will never hear from the nfl" was more than 4 words lmao. now i see hes talking about "come play with us".. god years and multiple watches and i never figured something so simple out haha
@@idk9637 wow I’m in the same boat that one totally went right over my head
@@idk9637 In the same vein as that line from TDKR:
“It would be extremely painful…”
“You’re a big guy.”
“…for you.”
@@idk9637 But that still doesn't make sense given the context. Normally when someone says something along the lines of "X words..." they will usually follow that expression with the exact same amount of words. For instance, I might say to someone "4 words. Shut the fuck up". The way he said it in the film just doesn't make any sense.
@@distantraveller9876 He's referring to the 4 words which they just said. ie. they said "come play with us" and andy is saying "those 4 words ("come play with us") are 4 words you will never hear from the NFL"
>Four words you will never hear from the NFL
*D* *E* *C* *I* *M* *A* *T* *E* *D*
+Insomniac64 Or from Lincoln Center?
+Insomniac64 Not to be pedantic but decimated is a roman word which means to kill 1 man out of 10 as punishment
Dude ended his career hair like that lol
When Travis said "Come play with us."
Andrew meant that those are the four words that the NFL will never tell him.
+Justin Tse Come play with us, isn't four words? Maybe you need to count again...
“...and Andy, with your drumming.”
She started it, honestly.
Yup, planted the seed and let others do the dirty job. Ah, the nowadays forbidden women stereotypes...
@ forbidden women??
@@uwu6741 forbidden stereotypes of women
@ incel
@@rookim1271 You just proved his point lmfao
It's clear that Fletcher didn't just improve his drumming. His insults are on point
Oh yes! 😂
Well observed👍🏼
'JUST FUCK OFF JOHNNY UTAH, TURN MY PAGES BITCH'
He legit is arguing at 4 people simultaneously . What a G
He learnt it from Fletcher
Yeooo for realll 😂😂
“Come play with us”
“4 words you’ll never hear from the nfl”
Damnnnnnnn 😂😂😂 ended him
That family was rushing. Not quite my tempo.
noice
That was great
That family is RAW!!
oh wait, wrong repeated joke
More like dragging ... the mood down ... **badam pissssss**
Kyle Hansen imagine the Voldemort looking guy showing up and slapping them one by one. WERE YOU RUSHING OR WERE YOU DRAGGING?
When you think about it, it's ironic that the only who believed in Andrew skills was Fletcher.
+nfs444 He will probably end up dead in a ditch on heroin though. At this point Andrew considers that a better outlook than mediocrity, but is that really him or is it just Fletcher talking at this point in the film? Whether or not the "success" is worth that fate is entirely subjective but Andrew's probably future deserves some recognition.
That's part of the point of the movie. All along Fletcher knows that Andrew has the ability to be up there as a great drummer, he just pushes him to the point of breaking because Fletcher's belief is that such pushing is the only way for Andrew to grow. He is an antagonist, but also a teacher and mentor figure, which is super unique.
That's true, but calm and supportive also works as a teacher. Ask any of John Wooden's national champion players. Wooden rarely raised his voice.
Isn't his Dad supportive?
nfs444 nah he just wanted his own Charlie Parker
"How do you win a music competition, isn't it subjective?"
"No"
This is probably my favorite moment because he asks arguably the most important question of the movie and Andrew dismisses it so fast without even thinking about it
His question, however valid, wasn't worth the time at that point. It was obvious he was hostile and trying to be rude and dismissive. 300 years ago he would've been slapped with a glove.
@@Seven_Leaf thats what makes the line so great. Its incredibly valid but extremely poorly timed and ill-intentioned. But had he heard the question in a different context, it probably would have given him a moment of pause. Because while the ability to play an instrument is honed, measured, and perfected through talent, music actually is subjective. Fletcher has conditioned him to feel otherwise, as a manipulation strategy
It's not valid lol, music is subjective but musicians aren't. How do we say mozart, beethovan and bach are the greatest musicians to ever exist, its how the other experts in the field recognize you that matters. Common people who don't understand music, to them it's subjective.
@user-gl7tq3uc8g Sure you can quantify who can drum the fastest or play a piece closest to it's original intent, but the entire point of Jazz is improvisation, which is what Andrew does in his last scene. Music historians and experts can't even entirely agree on what constitutes music, let alone the best music. Obviously there are qualifiers of what will sound good to most people (not all though), but at a high level jazz competition everyone is already pretty much guaranteed to sound at least good, so what is best mostly comes down to personal taste.
If there was a song that is objectively the best, wouldn't we all be listening to almost only that? If the 3 people you mentioned were objectively the best, wouldn't they be the most listened to artists? In music competitions, do you think the judges never disagree about who should win? If it was objective who was best, you'd only need one judge to tell you.
Music (especially Jazz) isn't about playing all the right notes exactly on the right time, it's about creativity displayed. And different creative choices sound better or worse to people with different ears and different life experiences. The thing that makes art special is that it can be interpreted or felt differently by every person that's experiencing it, if not we would have made an algorithm that just finds the "perfect" noises to play and we would listen to it all day. J Dilla used to offset his drums on his drum machine so that they didn't land exactly on the right beat, because he thought it sounded better when it was "less perfect", and more human. Clearly he was doing something right as he is regarded as one of the best producers of all time.
We can do this with other artforms too, do you think there's an objectively best poem? If not, what separates these art forms and makes music available of objectivety while the poetry is not?
Interesting. Also wonder now - is cooking objective/subjective, or how far does that line go? Ive seen people argue about how to cook a perfect steak, and "cook to palatte, not to pretense"...
If the food doesnt poison you then i wonder... how much stock should we put into a restaraunt having a Michelin star, truly?
Commercial viability comes into it too. Having people be willing to pay a premium to listen to your music or eat your food is important, but even at that - just because its commercially viable might not mean its something that will have a lasting legacy. Its very, very rare to have both e.g. The Beatles being so highly regarded as songwriters but also selling by the bucketload.
I like how he didn't use the fact that his cousins were athletes to insult them, but the fact that they're bad athletes.
He still would’ve had a problem with them if they were elite athletes.
@@H.K.5 No, he wouldn't. He probably aren't into sports, but he is someone that's respect anyone in position of real prestige in his/her craft.
If you're into sports, you know how players of third division looks bad when compared to the ones in first division of the same league.
@@H.K.5 I doubt it. 3rd division athletes are just really easy to dislike. They're nowhere near the top of their craft but they feel obligated to brag about their accomplishments ad nauseam. It's always annoying.
@randomavenger3048 the way you wrote that confirms you never played sports.
@@heiltecn9ne - Played for 15 years. He's right. What does that confirm?
I think the coolest part about this scene is how many people can relate to it. Being underrated in something you do because its unpopular, while others are overrated in something they do because its popular
And also, being dissed by your own family. When Andy's dad pops him with that "heard from Lincoln Center" line, it brings back family memories.
+MajorKeys Actually Andrew's dad is giving Andrew a dose of humility. Andrew is the provocateur at the table, and the primary instigator of the argument. Ultimately Andrew obliterates his father's temporary triumph of repartee at the dinner table, in the film's final scene...but in the dinner scene, it's checkmate daddio.
I disagree. Andrew lashing out at the dinner table is his means of self defense among family who are minimizing him. Dad thinks he's being supportive by always urging him to quit; his teacher thinks supporting him means abusing him. Andrew shows both that he can defend himself.
And motivate himself.
Yea its like the same for me as I play Baseball in Germany, which is really unpopular here. Everybody thinks it's an easy sport since you are mostly standing and hitting balls that are thrown at you.
Since I took 2 of my friends, that play football(soccer), to the training and one didnt even swing the bat for the first 6 times since the ball came too fast towards him and the other one didnt catch a single flyball towards him, they shut up about it. But it was really hard to get there.
"four words that you'll never hear from the NFL"
savage roasting
Mean ass roast right there lol
Well, his dad also made a come back.
@@luisvelez8096 please explain
dayum son he asked him if he heard back from a really elite school he applied for
And from Lincoln Center?
“the talent at this table its stunning...and andy with your...drumming” kills me every time
That condescending bitch lol
HE IS THE TALENT
Aren’t families great? 🙄
He's literally the most talented there
His father stab in the back move was disgusting! Almost jealous of his own son.
'Got any friends, Andy?'
'No'
I adore how he answers that question, without a pause and with no shame.
Fucking awesome. Will not be bullied or psyched out
Me too
Thats actually sad
@@k.k.1 Maybe it's because you don't have any.
@@edwinve4112 no ? What kind of mindset you have
"its the third division" and "4 words you will never hear from the nfl" are the most brutal burns in a movie
'Catch on quick. Are you in model UN?' is just as good.
@Bilal Khalid I didnt know that, but anyways in that moment at the table he wasnt in, I think, why would he leave the table then?
It's division three
That as well as "or Lincoln Center"
DI FBS, DI FCS, DII, DIII...
In a lot of ways, it not really the third division. It's more of a fourth division...
I'd hate to have a family like this.
Your name made me crack up
Hilary Clinton's Clit Then you wouldn't like to come to my house.
Xb
I do.
Me...
i just realized how Andrew is the only one who deflects the insults while his dad and everyone else just absorb it. I love how he’s adapting to not mimicking his family’s traits.
Yeah
@@angeloalvarez5520good input
As in... he isn't mimicking his family's trait of not being a complete dick?
Andrew hurling insults at a greater rate than his family isn't a good thing
@@rebelfriend1818 it’s probably the direction he needs to go in, the start of the film someone bumps into his dad and his dad apology for it, definitely a good way to build the character
@@rebelfriend1818 His family were being dicks to him first in this scene, Andrew was retaliating against them in a justified manner.
"you got any friends andy?"
"no"
"why's that?"
they disappoint me
I don’t need friends they disappoint me
@@afshantarannum341 Honey, you got a big storm coming!
“You could stop at five or six stores, or just…one”
🕺
Can I ask you kind of a weird question?
"...... and Andy...with your drumming." Lmao don't know why that's so funny.
These assholes 😂
The most relatable line in the film, I think every musician/artist has heard that at some point
she's the only nice one in the whole group lol
if this was an Asian family the opposite would be happening
You would think so but the way she brings up Andrews drumming last ,after a pause makes her sound like a person who has no interest in Andrews career.
I really feel Andrew's hurt when his own father puts him down like that.
An fairness Andrew was being an asshole and needed a reality check
Catch on quick, you in model UN?
Vloggerihardlyknowher nonsense. He was the one handing out the reality check.
I just think his father was trying to bring him back down to Earth, Andrew was getting all high and mighty and Jim was just doing his job as Andrew father to keep him in line and remind him he’s not above everyone.
@@royalewithcheese7 The only assholes here is his shitty "family" lol
I think this scene gives a lot of insight into Andrew’s relationship with Fletcher. It shows that he has been fighting his whole life for approval and recognition from a family that doesn’t value his interests. He’s motivated by the idea of proving them all wrong.
So when he meets Fletcher its the perfect storm. A teacher who’s a hundred times more abusive than his family and is nearly impossible to impress. The difference is that Fletcher actually does recognize Andrews talents and so Andrew is willing to be abused so long as he is finally recognized for his passion.
He’s been so desperate for approval his whole life that anything Fletcher gives him is like a drug and he becomes an addict. Putting himself through hell practicing just to get another taste.
This sort of reframed the movie for me. I see Andrew’s father as the failure of the story. If he had been more caring and loving towards his son then he never would have pushed him away.
In the final scene you can see his dad watch him perform with an expression of horror/amazement. I like to think that’s him realizing what he’s done to his son, thats he’s truly lost him to Fletcher, and he is great but at what cost. Kinda tragic really.
Also when the uncle makes fun of the Dad’s cooking and he doesn’t stand up for himself, Andrew doesn’t laugh. I think that’s because he sees that same lack of self confidence in himself, and possibly blames his father for passing that down to him.
It frustrates him and thats why he erupts at his cousins. He’s letting out his frustrations and showing he CAN stand up for himself. But he doesn’t know how to do it politely because his father never showed him how and so he starts a fight.
I completely, respectfully disagree...here's why,
● his dad loves him and he just doesn't understand music...some truly appreciating what andrew does is near impossible....it doesnt mean he's not trying...they go to the movies, they simply that they spent a lot of time pre-fletcher
●fletcher...who actually understands music can see Andrew's talents...does exploit that to see where andrew can go....but where I distinctly disagree the most....is that Andrew has passion...
Andrew isn't passionate(at least until he get kicked out of shaffer) about drumming...he's obsessed with the idea of greatness that he's using his skill of drumming as a means to being great....rather than achieving greatness through loving drumming and having passion for it....the movie literally shows his "passion" is achieving greatness....not drumming
● it's only at the end once Andrew recovered from the abuse from fletcher...he's had time to reflect....he spends time with his dad, apologises to nicole, and even indulged the idea of performing with fletcher because he actually loves drumming (once his obsession for greatness wore off)
● In the final scene Andrew's Dad realizes his son WILL be great. Andrew wasn't discouraged but you either forgot or purposefully glossed over the fact...Andrew went back AFTER he embraced his dad...
● Andrew will be great, he isnt lost to fletcher....and he will be great as a result of his passion and clarity from his abuse from fletcher....he didn't need to abandon the things he saw "no use" for...because he still performed even *AFTER* after making all those amends for the actions that so many people say are the "cost for greatness"
●by that metric...andrew was designed to fail the moment he talked to his dad again and apologized to nicole.....CLEARLY that wasn't the case
@@javieremoya Thanks for the response! I love talking about this movie. Here's what I would say to your points.
1. In regards to passion vs obsession, I would ask what is obsession rather than a desructive form of passion gone off the rails?
2. I like your point about Andrew being obsessed with greatness rather than drumming itself. I think this scene really shows how that came to be. His entire family is so obsessed with the acolades they get, rather than the enjoyment of the thing itself. It probably made andrew think the only important thing in life was recognition, which led to the obsession you described.
3. I believe my original point about his family pushing him towards Flethcher actually still works within your view of the film. Fletcher is also obsessed with recognition and is very hard on Andrew, except he gives Andrew little bits of victory along the way and each one feels earned. As opposed to his Family who never seems to acknowledge him, no matter how well he does.
4. What I love most about the film is how the ending can be interpreted in different ways. Personally I see the final shot of his dads face as a look of horror. Perhaps he thinks Andrew has "relapsed" into his obsession of greatness by playing for Fletcher. But a lot of people see it as a look of wonder and awe. As a father who sees his son has risen above and found what he loves rather than what people are telling him he can or can't do. Either one makes sense, which is why it's so great!
@@javieremoya no bro no. The scripts absolutely said that his father feels he lost his son and he would never be the son he loves
Hey shawn, can you tell me how did you get to know so much I mean what did you do to know all this?
0:25 Notice how Andrew looks at his dad when he’s told that he overcooked the food. Andrew is immediately in fight or flight mode and he expects the same reaction from him... His dad just laughing off the rude comment is a sign of weakness in Andrew’s eyes.
Because immediately going into fight or flight mode when someone criticizes your cooking is something a well-adjusted person does, I guess. Anyway, this kid has no right to look down on others for being weak when he consistently allowed a goddamn music teacher to attack and humiliate him in front of a captive audience and reacted to that by desperately seeking the teacher's approval. He and his dad aren't as different as he thinks.
@@logancox6548 Do you think Neiman has a choice to mitigate the humiliation Fletcher inflicts? Even if Neiman left the Schaffer conservatory, his opportunity for a better future will be dampened, so it's not Neiman's fault that a deluded 60 year old buckaroo is hot-headed and nitpicky about trivial things like the subtle mistakes in the tempo which laymen don't even give a shit about or notice when it comes to listening.
And that's exactly how you should handle people who make snide remarks at your expense at every turn.
Why should you be the only to feel uncomfortable. They did it, you sniffed it out, and now they're uncomfortable.
@@logancox6548 i don't think you understand of this movie... I can confidently say you're completely off base here. Have you never thought you were really good at something only to have the most important people in your life shit on it on top of everything else they dump on you for? Fletcher's opinion actually holds value because he gets it. This family's remarks are equivalent to people who visit galleries and say "oh i could paint that", except they didn't.. Now picture yourself hearing this as the artist whose attending his own exhibition. That's the point.
Even if neiman achieved commercial success and toured with the rolling stones, his family would still look for flaws, cuz to them drumming is just beating on shit with sticks. I could say the same thing about football, it's just getting a ball over a line, what's the big deal? it could all be gone tomorrow. Whole this is technically true, it's also reductive, and incredibly hurtful, so why say it at all? And that's exactly what this conversation is.
@@jordanchen23 Criticising something means you don't understand it? Yawn
When he said: Four words you will never hear from the NFL...
I FUCKIN LOST MY SHIT!
Um..."Come play with us" is clearly four words, no?
@lolol ahah the 4 words he's referring to is 'come play with us', and his retort... 'come play with us' is ''4 words you will never hear from the NFL''
I completely agree, thats why i was so keen to reply as it took me so long to figure out when he meant by it!
Did you find it yet?
And I won it back when he left the dinner table.
4 words you will never hear from the NFL...If there was a mic to be dropped....
And from Lincoln Center? *sips wine casually*
Nathan Williams His dad said "hear from Lincoln Center?"
No it was "And from Lincoln Center?"
sorry it's been a while since I watched this: what is lincoln centre? some music venue?
You could say that. Lincoln Center for the Arts is a complex of buildings including the Metropolitan Opera, NY Philharmonic, NYC ballet and (more pertinent to this movie) Jazz at Lincoln Center.
I love how Andrew’s facial expression and tone changed after his uncle asked him why he didn’t have any friends cause he knew he was taking a stab below the belt and at that point his mindset was like “fuck this, I’m done being polite. You wanna openly be a dick that’s cool I’m just gonna dish it right back 🤷🏼”
Yeah that's just a cheap hit. If someone already has problems, the last thing they need is being reminded of them.
Only reason he's being a dick was because Andrew was being a dick first.
He wasn’t being polite before lol
@@grayfarts why would you be polite to a bunch of people sucking each other off and bragging about each other to each other? Over a division three school. Calls the cousin Tom Brady. They were all 🤡 🤡 🤡 and didn’t acknowledge or support his path at all. Why would he be polite? Handled perfectly.
Well Andrew insulted his sons beforehand.
"I'd rather die drunk, broke at 34 and have people at a dinner table talk about me than live to be rich and sober at 90 and nobody remember who I was" what a great quote
It’s a pathetic way to think
Why would fame and glory sustain you more than a family or a calm life, things that we're naturally wired for? Genuinely asking.
I liked the followup exchange even more:
Uncle: "you'll be remembered by your friends, and that's the point."
Andrew: "None of us were friends with Charlie Parker, and THAT'S the point."
@@1991jamesbond you think so? It's not MY way, but I can understand it. Most everybody wants to leave some kind of legacy, and only those who achieve something truly amazing will be remembered like this.
@@1991jamesbond I probably related to this a lot when I saw Whiplash in the theater, but years later I realize how important it is to have good relationships and to live for something other than the self-satisfaction of fame or adulation from strangers.
That "come play with us" taunt is utter bs bro. Who cares if you're better than someone who doesn't play football you're not proving anything with that bet your ass you can't play drums in a jazz orchestra either. Hate it when people use that as their come back.
People love to assume that just because they're good at one thing means that they can be good at another easily. The best part is when life kicks em in the ass in the moment that they try with arrogance
i thought Andrew's gonna answer "No, you come play with us"
People who are good in sports often want to try to intimidate others. Because when you think of it, that's the only value of what they do, being intimidating with their physical superiority. They actually just chase a ball, and are useless. So if you won't intimidate other men, what good is it for? Musicians and artists who create art, that delights people, are people who understand the value of different people, value of diversity of men. Athletes usually don't, because their only achievement really, is being intimidating. Rest is just chasing a ball.
Lt. Reacharound Eh, I think it's a two-sided affair. I wouldn't render someone useless simply based on athleticism alone. Just like there are plenty of great musicians, there are also great athletes. And to be able to get a sports scholarship, you'd have to be pretty damn good at your craft. I believe it goes hand in hand for both.
yea it was just a setup to the roast basically.
The most painful thing in this scene is that he gets outed by his own dad.
I actually thought that was his dad's way of reminding him to keep his arrogance in check. What Nieman was saying was true, but he was starting to get carried away. I think his father was just trying to keep him grounded in reality a bit.
@@harrisonblock Yeah i've rewatched it recently and i realize he was becoming way too pretentious for his own good. Even cut ties with his girlfriend because she's a 'distraction'. The final scene while being a triumph is also him falling further down into his obsession.
@@akulahirpada1993 I think the ending was when he was too far in the obsession the get out. His dad looking onto the stage with bewilderment, was him finally see Andrew's potential greatness, and realizing he failed to give him the recognition he needed before he lost the old Andrew forever.
@@harrisonblockVery cool theory, and maybe it is that, but I feel it's his father trying to discourage him from the career path, both because he's afraid Andrew is getting too obsessed, in addition to feeling challenged due to his own works as a writer not taking off.
Some parents; definitely not all; don't want their children to succeed in very prestigious dreams due to calling into question their own choice to have a more stable, less enthusiastic career.
Or the thought of their child succeeding where they failed being extremely humiliating, even downright haunting.
It's not just the uncomfortably accurate representation of how families view success that makes this scene amazing.
The inclusion of the 'not having any friends' debate elevates it even more
It really shows that deep down, families like this don't care about their kids passions
Just how much of a 'normal' member of society they are
Of course, to some, the only legitimate passion one can have is music/art, and they belittle every other passion a person can have, like sports, or business, academia, etc. Just like our protagonist Andrew here.
@@Emanresuadeen he doesn’t criticize them for being athletes, he criticizes them for being bad ones. It’s not “football sucks”, it’s that they’re division 3.
@@Emanresuadeen andrew here is more upset at the fact that he's accomplished more, he's one of the best musicians his country has to offer, and his family is more impressed at ameteur football.
There is nothing normal about a person who thinks fame is all that matters in life
@@Emanresuadeenit's division 3 😂
The toxic experience of parents comparing their kids to others. The overhyping of trivial accomplishments. And the sheer disregard for any type of niche passion.
Yep. Reminds me of my family. This scene was absolutely brilliant
Sibling Rivalry!
There's some story I once heard or read somewhere or something like that, where some old friends are together and are comparing their kids accomplishments in life. The first three friends all speak on how their children have gone on to be highly successful business people, or doctors or lawyers, and the last friend says his son is working as something like a cook or a construction worker or something along those lines. The friends with more successful kids all say things in response like "oh well that's too bad," or "he was so smart in school though!"
To which the sons dad responds with "well I like my son. Me and him go to the movies once a week. He has a wonderful girlfriend. I enjoy spending my time with him. He may not be as successful, but he is cool, and people like him."
The implication of course being, 'your children are superficial tools used to make your family look better. My child is a good person.'
my extended family does exactly this. compared nieces and nephews. "that nephew went to med school, that niece started a booming business" and so on and so forth. made the next gen kinda despise one another essentially.
This scene eats at me, because so many people can relate.
@Careful Icarus no people who have dreams which are not according to normality
@@Swe3tChicken Fit in the mold and call it a castle, drone.
I can definitely relate with many of my jobs. Being intensely involved in a business with a niche group of people, then trying to discuss it with family/friends that are clueless.
Yeah it really sucks when there's an arrogant dork at the table.
Yes, so many can relate, in so many different levels
This scene epitomizes how we as society have to dump on one another in order to feel better about ourselves.
I upvoted you. But unfortunately it's not just this scene, as the comments in this thread only amplify your comment. High and low in station, rich and poor, everybody seems to hide a neglected genius eager to shit on the "plebs". That's what a world full of fletcher mentalities will get you.
@@Arcadius100 I agree, I find it crazy how many narcissists in the comments are buzzing that Andrew shat on these “normies”, I thought it was extremely clear Andrew was in the wrong here
@@aidanmca4177 How is andrew in the wrong? his family is demeaning him because their idea of success is in safety. He’s an artist and they can’t understand that, they have a simple mindset. You have an MF DOOM profile pic so i assume that you have respect for true art and real music so i don’t see how you can think he’s in the wrong
@@SAMSARALIVEEEEEE He's wrong here because the one's who are ignoring him are his parents and uncle. The cousins merely walked in and were praised. What's wrong with them being happy that their father and aunt and uncle were happy to see them and hear about their accomplishments. Their accomplishments aren't as skillful or praiseworthy, sure, but Andrew went off on them and effectively said he was better than them because he was frustrated with how his uncle and parents were treating him. Perhaps his cousins acted smug or non humble in the past, but we don't see that here in this scene, so we can't just assume what his cousins are like. They were fairly respectable about it in their responses, in how they didn't get very angry or try to take stabs back of equal value. Andrew basically shit on their livelihoods without provocation by them. You're also judging him based off of what his profile picture is. Also, when his uncle states that they have friends who will remember them and that they have purpose, that's not wrong to want or have. Andrew is someone who is seeking something that will gain him recognition throughout time, by those who didn't know him, and a purpose that is seemingly greater than a life of college football and having friends. I'm not saying either is wrong, but Andrew is effectively saying that his idea is better than the other, and seeking greatness isn't for everyone. I admire most those who seek greatness, so I completely get Andrew's ambition, but he's totally knocking their way of life. Why, because they aren't working as hard and making as many sacrifices as he is to be the best they can at what they do? I totally get that the uncle and parents should be less naive on the importance and gravity of what it is he's striving for, but you also have to take into account that you cannot blame everyone for their ignorance. Perhaps if they understood more about what it is he goes through they'd appreciate it more, but they're ignorant about it. If they know all and well what it is he puts himself through, then shame on them. But again, there was a lot that Andrew did wrong here. What do you have to say in response?
@@jaredgoldfine1391 Okay, where specifically did Andrew say that "Andrew went off on them and effectively said he was better than them because he was frustrated with how his uncle and parents were treating him."? He was just stating facts, Division 1 is not the same as Division 3 football, but did he boast about his achievements? I didn't see it.
"The talent at this table , that is stunning , and Andy with your drumming ". Cold as ice !!!
Clearly they don't realize how hard he works to be a drummer, hell he even ends up bleeding his fingers because of practicing his drumming. He's had to put up all the shit Fletcher does to him while insulting him and treating him like scum
“How’s the drumming going Andy?”
“Yeah it’s going really well, I’m the new core drummer-“
“TOMMMM BRADYYYYY”
Always gets me 😂
Something I loved about this scene is how Andrew was slowly losing his patience with his family by being underrated by them, and starts feeling some kind of frustration which slowly grows until Andrew just says fuck it and starts speaking the truth which culminates with him *_A N N I H I L A T I N G_* his cousin
@@MrBen51309 Are you a jazz drummer?
@@MrBen51309 division 3 is a joke and is a road to nowhere. Barely any colleges or universities give scholarships for it so there’s no real incentive to do it. Same amount of practice but it’s for nothing. So yeah Andrew was right. He’ll never play in the NFL. Full disclosure I know this because in Texas football is its own religion. D3 is laughed at.
@@MrBen51309 *scoffs* it's division III
@Ben Faulkner I believe the issue here is his cousins alluding to their superiority as if they're going to the NFL with their 93 yard touchdown. Another interesting thing I just picked up is how the uncle is sitting at the head table at HIS FATHER'S table. That shit would never fly in mine.
@@Diax1324 dwl. Very good question. Don't think he is
The character establishment in this scene is incredible. Andrew's uncle makes a joke about Andrew's father's incompetence at cooking and his father simply laughs it off. The camera cuts to Andrew not laughing, clearly conveying that he doesn't respect the way that his father accepts criticism without seeking improvement or any desire to prove the criticizers wrong. Here Damian Chazelle, the director, establishes Andrew's relationship with his father in about 3 lines.
As the scene carries on, Andrew starts talking about his incredible achievements at Schaffers to his family who already seems mildly unconcerned. Even so, he's not even able to finish what he's saying before his cousins barge into the room and take all the attention off of Andrew. The distaste shown on Andrew's face shows how much he hates being outshined by his cousins, but he reacts in a way that signifies that this kind of thing happens all the time. He simply shuts up and looks down to his food, letting his family praise his cousins for what seem, as we follow Andrew's character, only minor achievements. This part does two things. It gives reason to Andrew's desperate need for approval by Fletcher and also subliminally points to the fact that current society deems anything artistic of second importance to more material matters, such as sports and politics. Andrew's cousin's football is only minor league (on the scale of importance) and unimportant in the grand scheme, but it is praised more loudly than Andrew's musical achievements, which are actually a huge deal in his field. Andrew's other cousin only participates in MODEL UN, meaning it's not even the real thing, but it is recognized in higher regard than Andrew's musical status, as he is literally at the top of the food chain in regards to potential. Here Chazelle uses the irony of Andrew's family's views to comment on society as a whole. Even though Andrew is completely major league in his musical career, that same career is only an afterthought to his stereotypical American family. "And Andy, with his drumming." By introducing the viewer to the fiercely competitive and cumpulsively perfective world of orchestral jazz band, a world most average viewers don't understand before viewing, Chazelle makes this scene even more powerful. We ask ourselves how Andrew's family could care so little about Andrew's achievements and then later realize upon reflection that we knew and cared just as little about the world of jazz before we watched this movie as they do in this scene. Incredible work by Chazelle.
Joe shmoe I feel like this is an essay I would do in English, good job ;)
Joe shmoe okay no you're reading way too far into it.
***** no
***** lmao no. I love film but not every little part of the film has some deeper meaning. This comment is cringe
WCPMachines nah he’s right, there is always a deeper meaning
They were essentially mocking him the entire time and making him feel like he’s wasting his time but as soon as bites backs back he’s out of line.
I love this film, and I keep coming back to this scene, as the scene is so strong and relatable. "And Andrew...with your drumming" is such an infuriating line with brilliant delivery.
Agreed, and the "it's a nasty business I'm sure", especially its cadence, is equally infuriating
0:35
Literally every time I open my mouth to say something.
same, unfortunately
ikr
Coy Squash Usually I would be annoyed at what you just said, but tbf there's some degree of truth in it.
JackTheBaker sorry man that sucks
same here
"4 words you will never hear from the NFL" WOAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH
And from Lincoln Centre
+Stoneman180190 How is that a burn? Didn't exactly get how that comment affected Neiman.
+Eddo Hintoso the irony is that it ends with Andrew actually being amazing and most likely going on to a successful career in music
+perter2duhbomb No, he's gonna die alone, and full of heroin in his 30's.
+Brian Bernard this isn't the 80's, musicians have it way easier now and the worst drug he'd do would be ecstasy making millions at concerts
i will never get over how relatable this is for me. Having a family full of record breaking athletes is the worst thing ever, any accomplishment that is not sport related is not recognized/taken seriously at all. They really nailed the closed mindedness here, sounds like the writers have had first hand experience for sure.
Musicians and artists are often the most closed minded, judgmental and elitist of all, considering all those outside of their anointed caste to be lesser, soulless, puppet-like creatures.
@@Emanresuadeen its a more indie version of the jocks vs nerds stereotype. In reality nerds, especially in music can be disconnected terrible ppl.
@@Emanresuadeen im curious how you came to that thought cause I’ve been thinking the same for a while.
@@slothmode3590That's true, I've seen people on both ends be annoying
I think what’s crazy about this scene is the director is trying to frame Andrew as “the bad guy” in this scene. I’m basing that off the fact that he thinks Andrew would die of a drug overdose in his 30s
“Does it get you a job?”
“Does Carlton Football get them jobs?”
1:28 "Does it get you a job?"
That one line boils my blood more than anything else.
I can't even put it into words, that's how much it infuriates me.
My parents do this ALWAYS. Each time they notice me showing the smallest bit of interest for something they say: "why don't you make that your job?" Or "maybe you should study that".
My blood fucking boils
Peter M3ns1 preach.
Take some deep breaths my dude it's gonna be okay
ED-210 “does the studio get you a job” honest question
ED-210 Society almost always turns fanciful ambition in to monetary aspiration in a heartbeat. If it don’t make money, it don’t make sense. And folks wonder why we’re decaying in to a bunch of apathetic zombies. Sheesh.
Andrew wants approval by father figure, he doesn't get from his father. So he searches for another father figre -> Fletcher. and needs approval from him
GoatzAreEpic Maokai Why would his dad give him approval? Andy thought dying in your 20's was cool as long as you were a good musician. What dad wants their son to think like that?
He feels his father is too soft, feminine -he's a single father who singlehandedly raised up his son: that much is reflected on the way he deals with everything, with this sort of kindness towards the other.
But Andrew is full of toxic masculinity, of course he wants the approval of that father/fascist figure Fletcher is.
The way his dad betrays him in this scene is shocking to me. He's the only one who knew how to take a shot at Andrew that would really hit him where it hurts, and he took it, publicly humiliating his own son in front of his family. What sort of father does that? Andy was holding his own against the rest of them and then he cut him down.
Daelion164 Maybe because Andrew was being a prick and a little baby?
Greg Drake
Wrong, he retaliated against his douchey family.
The way Miles Teller delivered "four words you will never hear from NFL", was just absolutely incredible. Exceptional performance throughout. Great job, lol!!
Raise your hand if you're seen as an under achiever in your family so you've gone off to try and gain validation from your idols in the same field as you 🤚
Oh boo hoo, get a real job and make something of yourself. Reaching for sympathy will get you nowhere.
I used to until my 20 somethings. But at late 20s and early 30s I quit caring.
If people make a positive commentary out of the blue, awesome. If people make a nasty unnecessary one, I just stay silent, and if it tends to repeat itself, I will not look to be in this person's company anymore.
It took me awhile to learn in life that not everything needs 100% of your attention or an answer from you.
It's quite liberating when I finally understood that actually.
@@xevenxaver4759 he's just like one of the 'family' members lol
@@satakagintoki2393 I get this strange feeling that you’ve been through some shit
Hands up if you think people are really missing the point of this scene 🤚
Damn, that kid can write... and direct.
*****
Hi. Not sure that reply was mean for my comment, but good point. I agree.
+USNA2008 You've got it completely wrong, dude. This scene is painting the main character as an asshole. The writing doesn't harbor any contempt towards football players; quite the opposite, actually. It's just a scene to show how disconnected Neyman has become from other people, so much so that he would mock his own family.
Especially in jazz where technicality is everything. It's not like he was playing the drums for some lame ass hipster indie rock band.
It's not a "cheap point". It's a very real conversation that happens with a lot of people who pursue careers in the Arts, and it serves to show how disconnected Andrew is becoming with his family.
they were being realistic tbh
"Ah, but your friends will remember you. That's the point.
None of us were friends with Charlie Parker. THAT'S the point."
That was such a zing comment that his Uncle had to divert the attention away from him entirely. Great writing.
Not really.
Really.
But they were saying about Charlie Parker is he died a drunk loser. Not that impressive.
He's still remembered as a great musician. Elvis also overdosed and people still remember him for his career as a singer.
Greg Drake Elvis, Charlie Parker, and Macklemore all died of overdoses, but they are still remembered for their great musical talent. It doesn’t matter if a Division III football player lives a much longer and healthy life because no one’s going to care, he’ll just be forgotten in an instant but these amazing musicians will always be remembered.
I think people miss out a lot on the dynamic between Andrew and his father being so important in this scene. Look at the way the camera dwells on Andrew when his father lets his balls get busted over his dinner. Throughout the scene you get a sense - and Andrew gets a sense - that not only does his father not *understand* his passion, but he's also *embarrassed* by it, even a little humiliated. Which is galling for Andrew because he's clearly coming to view his father with contempt rather than respect. To be looked down on by someone you consider contemptible - that galls.
Altough this is a good interpretation, I personally have another. Andrew's father is a pushover. We see this earlier in the movie when they go to the cinema and someone bumps into Andrew's dad. Instead of getting mad or annoyed he apologizes. I think this scene is a much bigger example of him lacking a spine. From the previous conversation between Andrew and his dad you can see that he understands Andrew's passion and how important and impressive his career is. But when at the diner table everyone else sees it as almost just a hobby, Andrew's dad keeps quiet about it, not strong enough to stand up for the things his son cares about. This coupled with the fact that his mom seems to have almost the lowest opinion of Andrew's career leads him to have to defend his passion all by himself, which must feel quite soul crushing and lonely.
@@jersparkmovies Yeah, I agree. It pretty much goes like this in the script:
*_Andrew glances at his dad. Wondering if maybe he’ll chime in in defense... But no. His dad stays meek and quiet._*
_(This scene happens after Andrew's uncle said something about "making money as a drummer")_
Also another thing the script mentions is his father's reaction to Andrew's solo at the end of the film:
Jim watches Andrew - crazed, exhausted, looks like he’s pushing himself past what is safe - and knows there is no longer anything he can do about it.
*He has lost.*
stop saying galls, it’s cringe to be a pseudo intellectual
@@coeie4912 It's a five-letter word.
I love the look on Andrews face when his aunt says, "The talent at this table, it's just stunning." You can feel Andrew thinking everything he's about to say about his family, and would actually prefer to be yelled at by fletcher. At least that would be productive.
I would think Andrew doesn’t like either but at least he felt like he was working towards something with the band. And you could argue that Fletcher’s yelling and harsh motivation was detrimental to most of players in the band rather than productive as most just lost interest in music or felt it’s not worth it anymore.
As a writer myself, i know exactly how it feels to have a passion for something then have people looking down on you because its not popular
Jazz drumming especially.
WCPMachines Maybe, but at least I'm trying. Good thing your opinion dont mean shit lol
They don't look down on you because it's not popular. They look down on you because you haven't made enough money to show that it's more than just a hobby. Seriously if you were making decent money with your writing, they wouldn't say anything. I don't mean this as an insult cause I'm in the same boat as you.
Writing isn't popular? Maybe to ignorant people, but otherwise it is, it's not like Jazz music where you actually have to have a specific interest in it in order to know about it, anyone can read and appreciate a good piece of writing.
Nathan Silva You are a Tetsuya Naito fan and you love writing like me? Well, I got a new friend here.
"How do you know who wins in a music competition? Isn't it subjective?" Easily one of the dumbest questions to ever be uttered.
Honestly, it's not that dumb of a question. Most people know little to nothing about music competitions and how they are judged. So their ignorance on the subject is pretty standard in my opinion.
+Drake Brunette Pretentious
Seth Hodder How so?
It's a great question for the movie to put in the mouth of a character because so many people feel that way about "good" in the arts in general.
what constitutes good music is subjective
I like how Andy's father was waiting to see if others would share his criticism of Andy's choices. When it came up, he joined in. It's quite realistic for someone that loves you to do that.
Imagine being stuck with a family like this during quarantine / lockdown. To all my fellow artists out there who were unlucky enough to be born into a family like this, stay strong.
If you're the kind of person like Andy then I'm sorry but your family is probably tired of your shit
Something you should never do, especially at a dinner, is extensively brag to other people about the “big” accomplishments in your family. It brings on the vibe of competition into the conversation, and sometimes things can actually end up like this.
*d e e z* underrated comment
Thanksgiving and christmas dinners since the dawn of time. These conversations are inevitable unless you flat out never visit your family lol
Indeed. A topic best left for other occasions.
Agree, so agree
I'm replying super late but all Indian families have dinners like this one ..... pretty sad honestly
"Catch on quick. Are you in model UN?" I died
@Yao I would also like to know its meaning!
@Yaoand @Bunny Prince I think what he's trying to say is that his cousin understands what he's trying to convey and signifies how he catches on quick and goes to ask if he was in model UN (which he already is a part of) because that is the sort of talent/skill they have.
@Yao Well every high school is different but if he were to make that remark it would still be considered an insult as he is mocking him because his cousin is also being pretty arrogant as he says "You think you're better than us?" even though Andrew's family was talking about their success and not his
@Yao I feel you, everything he says in this clip is pure roast material
@Yao " At my high school, the kids in model UN are rather arrogant because they believe that it makes them intellectuals or something."
This is the meaning of the line. Hes implying that the other kid is an idiot and only thinks hes smart because hes part of an organization for smart people.
Its like saying "I'm good at arguing" just because you're on the debate team
A rare instance where the protagonist achieving his goal is actually the bad ending.
This was an inctedibly accurate take
Fletcher was the only person in andrew’s life that recognized his potential, no wonder he got so attached to him despite the abuse
I don't know what it is about this movie. Every time I feel down and depressed I watch Whiplash and somehow it gets me right back up. Such an inspirational film.
Same mate, same..
+Pierre Oat You said it all, my man! And in such a concise form... bravo!
What made Andrew get up from the table? As if he was insulted?
Yes, his father did.
When Andrew said "Four words you will never hear from the NFL", his own dad replied, "Or from Lincoln Centre"..basically implying he believed that Andrew would never make it to the best music group in the country. A savage reply from a savage dad
"So you think you're better than us?"
Goddamn! Thats what actually they've doing that to him the whole dinner.
"Wow, all the talent on the table...
oh and Andy with your drumming..."
Fuck that woman.
Having majored in audio engineering to produce for artists and being trained to conduct orchestra this actually hits home for me because I use to have conversations like this with my family my brother is a marine and my sister has a small business as a swim instructor and somehow what they did was more interesting than oh idk learning how to conduct 90 people at once
I mean thats really cool bro, but I can see how someone would take more interest in a marine tbh
I think your family knows you are the coolest but your siblings must feel down about the comparison, that's whyn they hype them up in family's gatherings.
It’s apparent that you’re not all that interested in what _they_ do either.
Tbf, those sound like pretty interesting jobs too, I don't see why anyone wouldn't be interested in a marine and a business owner.
your worth is equated to your net worth in this society sadly
I like the part where andy says "No" to "Isn't music subjective?". It just shows how different two worlds are.
Good lord they absolutely nailed the American family and their version of "success." The most talented member of the family is also the most neglected and unappreciated. The celebrated children are the ones playing sports in division III. Division III is really not impressive at all, Andy is right. Andy's accolades are extremely impressive and yet no one acknowledges him, and he has to fight for it. Typical American family and their version of what success is. Aspiring musicians if you're reading this- keep telling us stories through sound.
It's another thing motivation and ambition have to overpower.
Not sure how this applies to only American families lol. Most families are like this. Just different ambitious.
I see it differently. I feel that the parents are aware how paultry their kids achievements are compared to Andrew's so they boast about them. Andrew's father has nothing to prove as he knows Andrew is a high achiever.
As an American with 0 interest in sports, what is Division III?
Delta College football has division 1, division 2, and division 3. Division 1 is what you see on TV and what everybody pays attention to. Players in division 1 are the best in the country and some end up playing professionally. Players are recruited and are very often given scholarships to play division 1. Division 3 is much lower budget and much lower skill level. There are no scholarships given out and much less of a focus on recruiting. It's pretty much people who played in high school that want to continue playing but weren't good enough to be recruited to a division 1 school.
This movie isn't only about Andrew proving himself to Fletcher and becoming great, it's about breaking free from this predetermined mediocrity he was born into. His dad is a failed writer, and he acts like it, putting his tail between his legs whenever his brother challenges him. He fully expects Andrew to fail in his own wild aspirations, and even tries to discourage him at times. Even towards the end of the movie when Andrew runs off stage, his dad is there to bring him home right away, welcoming him to admit failure. It isn't until he turns around, gets back on stage, and proves himself to the world that his father finally realizes Andrew wasn't meant for mediocrity like he was.
Jim It makes you wonder...was Andrew's dad meant for mediocrity? Was he truly not good enough to make it, or was he lazy and didn't work hard enough? At the very least, he sounds like he's still doing alright. teacher of the year is nothing to frown upon.
@@24572 Yeah, I dont agree with that he was meant for mediocrity like he had no control, he just gave up. Maybe it wasn't his passion or maybe he wanted to take care of andrew or any other reason.
@Careful Icarus The only way people are mediocre is when they keep saying shit they wish they could become but never take the leap. that is mediocrity. It's not trying to climb to the top, its staying where you are and deciding not to grow as a person and chase what you want.
@@24572 Exactly, although this was supposed to be the grand pay off, subtly its kinda sad.
Andrew has mostly been isolated in the film, only focusing on the drums, aside from that what does he have? He became great but at what cost? Was it all worth it?
I like how the film just cuts and leaves that open ended.
Maybe he is a failed writer, but he is a school teacher. I have been one for 23 years, 4 more years and my pension is set. I get out of work at 2:30 PM daily, work inside, 13 weeks vacation, 100K /year, good health benefits. Even during this outbreak, I get full pay and even more time off. I would gladly be a failed writer and take that. I think a lot of people would.
-You got any friends Andy?
-No,
Legends have no time for friends...
the look of shock in his father's eyes when he witnesses what a monster of a drummer his son is is so damn satisfying...he is indeed worthy of the lincoln center, they're obviously not worthy of the nfl..so he did prove them all wrong.
“Monster” what monster?
@@GigaChadh976 in the last solo, when his father got a glimpse of pure greatness.
He didn't prove them wrong. He prove them right. He's going to die young and sad just as they said. Idk how people see this movie as a history of superation when in every single shot, dialogue, colour, etc. Everything says that it is a tragic story with a tragic ending.
@@yaraduardo1287womp womp. They'll be forgotten.
How tf did the father attack his own son? Nothing about that fight was friendly but Neiman strictly stayed on picking at their careers. The uncle went for "Do you have friends?" angle and that's a line drawn.
To be fair, Andrew was also a condescending dick. Basically saying that being a normal, decent, sociable person is below him. Sure he didn't get the respect he deserved on the table, but mostly due to his families lack of knowledge. He could've stood above that. Instead he didn't give them any respect either, but out of arrogance and feelings of superiority. I think his dad just wanted to put his feet back on the ground.
I totally agree. He should of had his sons back. Instead of doing the exact opposite and attacking him.
staxstix well to be fair it is below him. He wasn’t arrogant, he simply grounded his family in reality.
" than be rich and sober at 90 and have no one remember who I was " is aimed directly at his dad .
@@staxstix He is an obsessed artist who practices on the drums until his hands nearly detach. I can see how it would piss him off if his family didn't appreciate or show any amount of interest in his field. Hell, he even goes to the movies with his Dad yet his Dad doesn't even recognize when to appreciate his talents. Understandably, this is why he was being a condescending dick.
the condescension and the way they brushed his talk of his career pursuit off is probably what drew the last straw
an-drew the last straw.
@@pj7371 shut the fuck u
Yeah and people don't really get to come back into the circle after saying something like that, especially if the plan is to just show up after you pass the finish line like everything's fine and peachy.
...he was also very condescending towards the footballers, even more so than anyone was to him
^ The entire verbal altercation started against Andrew with the aunt I believe she is. They basically started trying to gang up on him and he accordingly fired back.
"The talent at this table that is STUNNING ... and Andy with your drumming." LOL. This bish.
I can 100% relate to this. My stepbrother was everything my father wanted in a son. Football player, loves sports, ladies man, etc. I was not. I'm a musician, love jazz, wrestled in high school, you can guess the rest. Anytime I talked about music and new things I was learning, it was instantly overshadowed by my brothers things. He was the golden boy of our family. No one really thought I was gonna do much with music until I actually started making money with it. Then my brother joined the army, never saw combat (thank god) and the attention went right back to him. Then I started headlining events such as the house of blues, m18, venue, got to play on fm radio, auditioned for AGT, etc. That's when my family started seeing how much I've progressed. Now, my family asks me if I can teach my brothers and sisters and friends kids piano, guitar, singing lol. God has a funny sense of humor🤣
With all due respect to your family... they paid more attention to your brother because he went to the _army_ ? What kinda backwater family is this?
Most UNDERRATED line from this scene is from the dad:
“Lincoln Center.”
Mary McLaughlin
“Come play with us.”
“Four words you’ll never hear from the NFL.”
“Or the Lincoln Center.”
This whole exchange is great.
@@cjv8522 what does lincoln center mean
adolf obama
The equivalent of the NFL for jazz musicians. What his dad is basically saying is that Andrew isn’t as good as he thinks he is.
I came down here searching for what the dad said, couldn’t understand him. Oof.
Bruh, how can you demolish your own son like that?
Dang it took me three years to notice Andrew's dad's comment refering to W. Marsalis's Lincoln center orchestra. Softly telling Andrew to check himself still. Incredible scene.
What was the whole comment? I still can't make it out for the life of me, it's too fast.
Andrew tells his cousin that they will never hear "come play with us" from the NFL. Andrew's father says "and from the Lincoln Center" as a comeback, meaning in whole, "and (you will never hear come play with us) from the Lincoln Center" The Lincoln Center is like Broadway for musicians like him, so its a pretty bad insult, just as bad as the one he says to his cousins. I'm not sure why he says this to his own son though, like why would you insult your own son.
@@mohammadsaadsheikh8343 Oh, "and from Lincoln Center." Got it.
I think, with the inflection, or raised pitch, at the end, it was more of a question, "and from Lincoln Center?" That would change the meaning from an insult to a rhetorical question that says "you haven't heard from Lincoln Center to play with them, so as long as you're not there yet, you have no room to talk." That sounds more like a teaching moment than an insult to me, now that I understand what he said! 😂
@@mohammadsaadsheikh8343 To be fair Andrew did say that he'd rather die drugged at 30 as a successful musician. I don't think any supportive father would approve of that.
Mohammad Saad Sheikh saying that his cousin will never be asked by the NFL to play with them isn’t an insult, it’s stating facts. His father doubting him by reversing that statement using the Lincoln center on the other hand is in fact and insult because he should know that Andrew could actually make it.
“The talent in this family… and Andrew with your drumming.” They weren’t impressed with him one bit.
In case you didn't do music, the main reason Andrew was pissed about his cousins playing football isn't necessarily because they were bad or anything, it's because when they were talking about his drumming, it was silent, but as soon as the high school football player is mentioned then everyone is so happy for him. It happens a surprising amount. Great scene, I also think the dads line about linclon center at the very end is a nice touch.
I think this scene reflects how society views young people that want careers in music, film, acting, writing, or really any art form. Everyone expects you to settle for an office job or something generic, so when you pursue a creative career, society disapprovingly looks at you, thinking you’ll fail.
In fairness, an overwhelming majority of people in the arts do fail or their art is only valued after the artist dies.
This comments has such "we live in a society" bullcrap lol
Yeah, people don't care about art but who cares? Fuck em.. Andrew was in the wrong here when he started it.. He is a dick here and I think that's the point of the scene..
@@lukaANDkrosty yeah his views are becoming more one track and more aggressive but his family doesn't deserve better either lol putting him down and dismissing him
@@lukaANDkrosty He's a dick to his family because his family is a dick to him. Did you watch the same movie I did?
@@royalewithcheese7 and that is fine Humans were meant to fail we aren’t meant to live easy lives regardless of how we see it. I have respect for those who at least tried to achieve their dreams in a music career than those who settled.
1:17 Notice that, as Andrew's talking about how well he's doing, both his aunt and his uncle shrug their shoulders.
The way how the scene cuts to Andrew playing drums is fantastic, this movie has such a nice flow.
"How do you know who wins a music competition? Isn't it subjective?"
"No."
So. True.
the irony is that its not true. Music is subjective, like all art. You can home your talent and skill through practice, but in the end how your music measures up is entirely up to the audience.
The question itself was just poorly timed and ill intentioned. If Andrew had heard it under different circumstances, it may have given him a moment to contemplate the manipulative mentality fletcher had instilled in him
@@krypticunlimited6925 The more you actually study art, music included, the more you come to understand that it's not quite as subjective as you think. People with talent, people with skill, people with passion and drive to study and hone their craft will always outperform those who do not have the natural talent or the natural skill to compete. In the same way as Messi is objectively a better soccer player than me, Da Vinci is objectively a better painter and sculptor than me, and his works reflect that.
It doesn't depend entirely on the audience. So many "great" artists have gone entirely unrecognized in their own time, but that doesn't diminish the quality of their art in the slightest.
@@krypticunlimited6925 Incorrect. You likely have never played a musical instrument in a band.
"the talent at this table... and Andy with your drumming" Who says that, come on?! xD
2:47 TURN DOWN FOR WHAT
Plínio, O Copo Do Vlad Best roast in history
OH SHIT THAT WAS LEGENDARY.
Wait what where the four words ??
Useless Uncle turn down 4 watt
@@parsaspianocafe2582 Come play with us, BOY.
“So that’s your idea of success?”
“I think being the greatest musician of the 20th century is anybody’s idea of success.”
Great scene, I can really relate to Miles Teller's character.
Same
+mary swift Yeah it's so depressing for me whenever someone asks me what I'm doing and I tell them I'm studying music composition to hopefully write movie scores in the future. They all smile at me like I'm a child wanting to become a fireman or a super agent.
+Son Of Montreal same :( I'm ashamed to admit that I want to be a composer
Blue Never be ashamed of your dreams. Always remember that those who succeed aren't necessarily the most talented or gifted. It's the ones who persevere and never give up!
Even though I don't have aspirations of pursuing music full time, I find this scene relatable. I'm the only musically talented person in my whole family (that includes all extended family) and no one else listens to the same music I do (I listen to a lot of different stuff but mostly blues, rock, metal, and progressive). Whenever I try to explain my love for playing and listening to these genres, I can tell they just don't get it and quickly become disinterested in anything I have to say. It's sad to me that these slaves to pop music I've known my whole life rarely ever try to expand their musical tastes or at least try to "get it" and understand where I'm coming from.
I would loved if Fletcher also attended this dinner table scene to meet Andrew's family. I know Fletcher was being a hardass to Andy... but can you imagine how he would have reacted toward Andy's family? Fletcher would never have allowed Andy's family to get away with the digs they took toward and and toward music profession. How would Fletcher have handled Andy's uncle; I believe he would not gotten away with "music is nasty business I'm sure". Fletch would have ripped Andy's football player a new one for that stupid "subjective" comment. He would have called out Andy's aunt for her condescending comments. Fletch would also layed down the law to Andy's dad for his lack of backbone defending Andy as well.
+Joseph Richard I got the sense from this scene that Fletcher's aggressive attitude was starting to rub off on Andrew. I suspect that if Andrew had never met Fletcher, then he would've suffered in silence throughout that dinner.
@@redlightmax actually a pretty logical question.
Joseph Richard he would call Andy a pussboi
@@redlightmax he taught andy how to have a backbone which his real father lacks and failed to teach
Mmmm yeah
This gives us so much insight into why Fletcher's opinion and approval means so much to Andrew.
“How do you know who wins in a music competition? Isn’t it subjective?”
“No”
This movie is awesome. Four words you will always hear from me.
Victor Coyenn I love you.
I understood that reference.
For all the great JK Simmons lines "four words you will never hear from the NFL" might just be the best line of the film.
That moment hit so nice the first time I saw the film.
im an artist in the family, so seeing this hurts. yet motivates me a lot more every time i watch this scene.
SAME!!! How is it going so far?
Yeah that's why I gave up on music
None of your family will ever be remembered past their grandkids, at least you have a chance.
@MrJames1034 Never ever give up on your dreams because your family doesn’t see it as achievable or something serious. If your heart is drawn to something, abandon everything else and follow it to the very end. That’s the only form of transcendence we get in this life.
FUCKIN' HELL this script is incredible
Dinner/lunch scenes in well-acted movies will always be one of my favorite scenes
This literally happened to me. Told my Grandma I work full time teaching music and all she did was mention how my cousin is coaching middle school football. As if my degree and actual profession is nothing. The coaching he does isn't even part time or for a professional team. Yet Im treated as if Im no different from a coach without actual training.
His Pop shouldn't have stuck that cold knife in his Son's back like that with that last comment/question. That's straight Shakespearean betrayal.
"Heard from Lincoln Center?" For a response, that is even a bigger comeback for the purpose of this film.
Dad gets the repartee win at the dinner table...burns Andrew's balls, turns his own NFL burn back on him. Not because he doesn't love his son - but because he DOES. Andrew has no friends, blows his relationship with a girl who might be the love of a lifetime, and is forfeiting any meaningful life apart from music. He's headed for a life of singular pursuit, without much meaning apart from musical greatness. Dad thinks his son is very talented...but because he was forced to abandon his own literary ambitions, in part because of becoming a single dad, he also doesn't want his son to experience the same emptiness he does, if he fails to overcome the long odds against true greatness. Andrew sees more virtue in the singular pursuit of greatness - dad sees more virtue in a strong work-life balance (quality of life). As it's said, "What profiteth a man who gains the entire world, if he loses his soul?" Ultimately, Andrew destroys dad's Lincoln Center burn, with his triumph in the final scene. But the film definitely implies that in exchange for the obsessive pursuit of true greatness - he's made a Faustian bargain with the devil (Fletcher). He's pretty much sold his soul...
Actually, it's apparent his father doesn't understand his potential, for he is always mentioning on moving on. The best representation of this is the final scene of the movie, where we get a glimpse of his fathers face behind the door, and how he marvels over his son's performance. This was a movie that shows anything can be achieved if our minds are set on that goal. Andrew may have ruined his relationships, but he also obviously understands that when he tries to reach back out to his girlfriend towards the end, only to realize she has moved on. Andrew moves on as well, towards greatness.
The father is submissive see how he is positioned at the table he should sit at the head of the table in his own house but instead sits to the side.
I think this is done intentionally
completely, he's a mat that everyone walks over. but the incessant comments on how Andrew should move on to other things also signifies his doubt in his son, at least in the profession he's in
Yes, he is a mat well said, the final scene with the dad watching through the doors says it all With the way it's framed imo.
It's like he's watching from a different place, peaking at what he might have become had he been a successful writer.
There's an element of fear on his face, fear for his son and fear for is own short comings
Couldn't agree with you more. I also seem to sense that he is now discovering who his son is. Andrew's father never witnessed Andrew's full potential, but neither had Fletcher or Andrew. This movie perfectly grasped that becoming great isn't meeting expectation, it's removing the variables expectation and full potential. Andrew blurs the lines of those two and demolishes them in this final scene. We realize that Andrew is no longer drumming to please his mentor, he is his own mentor now.
I'm a novelist. I'm on my 3rd book but I learned over the years to never. And I mean never ever ever ever ever make conversation about the intricacies of written word to a non writer and a non artist or anyone who isnt into the arts in general. You can make light conversation but if you speak to non initiated people theyll humor you become annoyed and or secretly want you to shut up. It will corrupt you faith in what your doing. I only have deep writing conversations with other writers. I learned this very hard lesson and no longer get my feelings hurt
He just told them he's in best ensemble of the country and they just brush it off
Because they don't even know what that is. That doesn't mean Andrew gets to tear others down, because he didn't get validation.
This scene is important for one thing. It shifts Andrews imagine of his father figure from his real Father - to his teacher. In the screenplay, when he hugs his dad back stage after being defeated by Fletcher, his father suggests they leave. 2 security guards emerge, trying to escort his father from the back stage. His father explains that he’s Andrews Dad. The security guards look to Andrew, asks if this man is his father and Andrew says... “No”.
Andrew then walks back on stage with his Dad calling to him, obviously heart broken, and Andrew breaks into caravan. When he finally completes the song and goes into his solo at its first peak, his father watches from the back stage and realizes that he’s lost the fight for Andrew and that Andrew is there for Fletcher.
This film says a lot about passion turned obsession. This film shows us how we impress father figures, and or how damaging it can be to be let down from one and how we seek another. This film has a dark perception but in the end, it’s all about what Andrew wanted. So, if he was seeking a father figure who genuinely cares about his musical pursuits and wants him to be great (even if it’s for the bragging rights), regardless of the Stockholm syndrome relationship they’ve built, then so be it. He became one of the greats, and accomplished his goal, and has someone to impress.
After "isn't it subjective?" that "No." was from a man who had seen hell and come back alive. Alive but not unchanged.
The last straw was "and Andy with your drumming...".
It's like nails to a chalkboard for him, he is going trough hell to be the best in a very competitive area where his family are praising mediocrity.
I also see Andy very disappointed with his father when his uncle bad mouth his cooking, Andy wouldn't take shit from people like him.
0:40 - echo of Andrew's voice saying "drummer" while the room is cheering.
you will not be able to unhear this :P
the writing and editing in this scene is nothing short of perfect
When no one else understands your passion, you feel deeply isolated and the only company you have is your passion and the work itself.