Here I talk about giving some flavor to your Cleric PC. Chat with me on Twitter: / keepbandit Welcome to Bandit's Keep where we play a variety of tabletop role-playing games!
The first time I played D&D B/X back in 1982 I played a cleric. I fell in love with the class and it still remains one of my favorite classes. I play my clerics as the crusader/monster hunter type and much less like a priest. It just feels more natural that way to me. I like the idea of a deity choosing somebody they see potential in to carry out their will and desire in the world.
The witch hunter archetype is the origin of the Cleric class back in OD&D. This is how Dave Arneson, who originated the class, thought of them. Less “priest,” more “Van Helsing.” So I think your way of thinking of them, at least for OSR type games, is spot on. This also to me makes the whole wait until 2nd level before you get spells but you can turn undead at 1st level make so much more sense. Turning undead is because they are undead specialists and powered by their own will, not some divine granted ability like a spell. That comes after they prove to be effective undead destroyers.
I've recently been sold on the Cleric as presented in "Lion & Dragon" where they are chosen in their youth as evidenced by their ability to manifest miracles. They then sort into their own order separate from the regular clergy and are more like the Knights Templar. It does mean they can cast "spells" at 1st level, but personally I like that slightly more than the B/X paradigm of "proving yourself" because it's implied than "normal" clergy can manifest such miracles (indeed, IIRC, AD&D even has tables for buying spells at temples!). I'd rather keep the magic rare -- if every bishop can cast CLW, that changes medieval society way, way too much.
Great video! I used to catch HELL from groups I played in bc I played a cleric like a cleric. It's good to see I'm not alone in feeling that a cleric is more than a fighter with healing spells.
I vote for videos on the demihuman races/classes in B/X. Race as class is one of the defining features of B/X so hearing your thoughts on this characteristic of the game I think would be great, especially juxtaposed against why there are only human thieves and clerics. Like this or not, these are defining features of this version of the game and well worth some videos IMHO.
Great video discussion of not only bringing the cleric to life, but also "how to role play" by giving your character purpose and personality. The numbers game frequently emphasized in today's hobby is very different from the way the game was and can still be played. Listening to your channel (and a few others) has sharpened my awareness of what I like best in fantasy RPGs - resulting in me increasing my enjoyment of the hobby by concentrating on playing the right games for me. What is trendy or popular, or even what our friends like is not always what we will enjoy most.
Awesome. I agree, sometimes going outside what our circle of friends is doing can be a great way to find new things you (and maybe them as well) will enjoy.
I am currently playing a cleric in my solo campaign and I am loving the proselytism aspect of the class. And I like making up details and quirks for his faith (the Cult of Halav from the Karameikos Gazeteer): fast days, feasts, tithes. Also the flexibility in how spells are received every morning, gives the character a cool dynamism.
We give clerics extra spell levels equal to wisdom bonus per day. So if your Wis is 15, you get 1 extra 1st level spell per day, including at 1st level. We also use the lay on hands ability from DCC, which is pretty cool, as well as the deity disfavor mechanic they use in DCC. The healing there is contingent upon alignment. You heal more if the other person is of the same alignment. Definitely adds a bit more flavor.
I do like the healing based on alignment, I’m not sure in a BX game that I would like what is Effectively unlimited healing like a DCC. But of course it really depends on the game you’re playing.
I have been a skeptic of alignments since the early days, but the DCC approach has breathed new life into the old school Law v Chaos thing for me, and that includes clerics. I love the DCC cleric: the disfavor rules, and the way the cleric can't heal someone of a different alignment without risk. If I end up running bx at some point in the future I will use that as a model
I have way too much to say on this subject for a simple comment. I will say that I appreciate DCC RPG's handling of the Cleric class best among published RPGs I have experience with. It may be random, but it at least manifests the fact that having a Cleric in your group affects the group's dynamic and relationships at least a bit, since healing is less effective when used on those who do not share the Cleric's Alignment. In D&D, sadly, Clerics form a third of a Cursed Triad of character classes that I have never seen any player portray convincingly. At best, I get an obnoxious one-dimensional caricature. Over the years, I have been forced to prefer a shallow husk of a personality attached to a list of abilities valued by teammates. As an artist and a reformed zealot IRL, I have always found this tragic. The Cursed Triad: Cleric--Paladin--Bard
I love what Dungeon Crawl Classics does where clerics can turn different creatures and use different weapons depending on their alignment (and the alignment of their deity).
2e had specialty priests who could use representations of their deity's favored weapon; I like each having different granted powers and not all turned undead.
One easy way to distinguish clerics of different faiths is to slightly alter the spell list. 2e had divine portfolios and some options where clerics could use war doman or light domain spells etc. In Esoteric Enterprises, each cult has their own d10 table of spells. A cult of Yig the snake-father is going to have spells about snakes and deceit and heat. A cult of protecting the dead are going to have spells to speak with dead spirits and darkness spells and such.
The cleric in the first game I run was a prist of Poseidon. He could not turn the undead, but he could call the lightning which was a lot of fun (and damage)
The Cleric is probably my favorite class. Ive had some players use interesting Clerics over the years. Worshipping standard Deities like Cuthbert, but also Spider god, Fire god, the Lord of Swords, a god of hunting/ archery, a god of Light, a god of death. Most players made their own deity. They each got a bonus relating to their religion, but paid the price with religious strictures, role playing, having to donate, even being called on by their order. Ive had players prefer a Fighter because of " no rules " ( like the Cleric ) they had more freedom in their eyes.
Commenting 3 yrs after this video was released. Bitd, I always thought the cleric didn't get their due in the early days. Imo, Forgotten Realms Finally put emphasis on clerics & made a subclass (specialty priests). When they did, my main campaign, (that set the stage for the Red Wizards of Thay boxed set) consisted mostly of specialty priests. Needless to say there was many philosophical discussions around the table! 😂
My first D&D character was a cleric. We played AD&D 1st edition. I remember healing inured party members and not being shy about swinging my mace to protect weaker party members. I've always loved the duality of the class, but I don't think I've ever played one as a zealot throughout the editions.
Love the videos. “Cleric as a Zealot” is a stellar concept. All characters can be religious, but it is different to be so passionate you can draw power from it.
I'm always in favor of making faith something that all characters can take part in. Not every lutheran is a cleric. If class levels are rare, your local church hierarchy aren't going to be fully staffed by clerics trading miracles for faith. Coriolis, Aquelarre and a few others have rules systems where faith is something involving every PC. Every PC in Aquelarre can pray to the saints, God is a force in everyone's life. In Coriolis, everyone routinely prays to the Icon that best aspects their challenges ahead. PCs with feats like strong or weak faith affect group luck rolls. The Icons are not all sturm und drang, they are subtle.
I did play a cleric, recently. Well... as Fred Daniel said in another comment: "what our friends like is not always what we will enjoy most"... I was not keen on it, but I did aim for getting something good out of it anyway, so I decided it was time to play a cleric. I think I managed to make an interesting character, idea: A refugee travelling the world for to find his place in life. Fled from a nation in civil war (religious), searching for a place to settle in peace. However the campaign got cut short due to RL issues. So I feel my character never got enough time for to come to life. --- For what the cleric goes, then I will say: If you are a one character party, then cleric is probably the best class for solo play. I do understand why many shun the religious classes, due the way they perceive RL religion. It is due to most RL religions people know, are hose around the Arbahamic God. -> An annoying monotheistic narcissistic God. For a cleric, the world does have Polytheistic Gods who do not suffer from that "jealousy of other Gods"-complex. So the insufferable missionary play-style people think a cleric is about, discourage them from playing clerics. Something that discourage me from playing religious classes, is if the world do not include good world-building around Gods. I have seen several world-builders make a crap pantheon, often what I call a "spreadsheet pantheon", a table with minimalist info on each God, and with no connection to the rest of the world-building. How fun is it to play? I am sad to say: I have seen far too many spreadsheet pantheons. Ok, I do understand it from a world-building perspective: How much effort do you want to put into something people are not going to play anyway? I say: They are not going to play, if you do not give them the chance! What I find interesting about clerics is they are (supposed to be) respected members of society. (Which is only the case if the DM do not see clerics as being the usual insufferable missionaries.) And they have a good start for role play around what goes on with Gods. (If the world-building is well done when it come to the Gods.) Sadly there are (I have seen far too) many ways playing a cleric can end up disappointing: (A) Undeads. - You will encounter undeads once in a while as long as there are no cleric types in the group. The moment a cleric enters the party, there are 3 common outcomes: (1) The group encounters one group of undeads, and from then on never meets undeads again. (Usually that is the way a new DM does it.) (2) The group never encounters undeads. (Usually that is the way an experienced DM does it.) (3) The group only encounters home-brew undeads with ultra high saving-throws making them always save vs. the cleric's powers. (Usually the veteran DM's way.) (B) Healing Potion. - The Cleric is a self-recharging Healing Potion following along with the party. (Your usual classic DM => "Disaster Master".) (C) The God(s) do not care. (In reality it is the DM who does not care.) --- In short: The main problem with clerics is the other players, especially the DM.
Surely those are not the only 3 options for undead 😂. If the party enters tombs and graveyards they will likely encounter undead - if they go to goblin caves or spend time in towns likely not. While I do believe a DM should give more consideration to a Cleric “blaming” them seems off base to me. D&D is collaborative.
I do not say they are the only 3 options, those are according to what I have seen, just the most common options. Cleric is, sadly enough, a class often hated upon. Only less popular class is the Bard. And that make those unpopular classes less interesting to play, as the DM will remove situations where those classes could shine.
I love playing clerics… it also can give you a real direction on a character depending on your god that you worship. Also it’s probably the most well rounded class out there…
I am playing two characters in a small group AD&D 1E game. A cleric and a monk. The DM has a lot of house rules especially for the monk class. They are very close, twins-close, and are equally devout in the worship of their god. Lucian and Sorin are irish-twin brothers (2 consecutive single births less than 1 full year in age difference, 10 months in their case). They were both raised in the same Apostu's mission for the worship of Tengri. Sorin was trained to be a religious monk and has training in proper Tengri worship, while Lucian was trained to be a warrior monk and is more indoctrinated in the old ancestor worship and nature spirit ways of the Yamnayan culture. They are close and spend a lot of time together so they have a lot of bleedover of spiritual practices and weapons techniques.
Nicely done! Unfortunately in the newer editions of dnd, clerics are one of number of different spell slingers. There is often nothing really special or unique about them, and the glut of healing options they bring makes many games cartoonish. Your take on things was really great!
Cleric has always been my favorite class. Frontline combat, healer, support, buffer, crowd control, Undead killing specialist- it has so many roles and does them well or is 1st-rate at them. I feel like I always have to defend them against ignorant players who think they're just there to heal or turn Undead. Sure, they are almost the only source of heals a party might have. But they have so much capability to get rid of the source of damage, Which is far more efficient than putting Band-Aids on the damage itself.
"By Grabthars Hammer, by the Suns of Worvan, you shall be avenged..." It's the one thing anyone really remembered about Dr. Lazarus. Wait... he was also the healer. Was Dr. Lazarus a Cleric?
Cleric and Paladin are two of my favorite classes, because they're _basically the same class_ . A lot of people have beef with the Paladin Code, because how dare fantastical powers granted by a benevolent supernatural force require you to actually use said powers in a benevolent way yourself! It's on your character sheet therefore it's yours to do with as you please, regardless of consequences or ethics or the Alignment written way up top with your name! The way the B/X Cleric is treated in Holmes and Moldvay in the flavor text is exactly spot on. "My god might not want to heal someone who broke his oath" - people tend to forget that the Cleric, too, is beholden to a Higher Power even if it's not laid out in _as explicit of detail_ as the Paladin. My solution is just to merge the two. Maybe instead of "blunt weapons only" the Crusader class is given a proscriptive list of allowed weapons based on fulfilling the medieval crusader look - cruciform swords (shortsword and longsword but not scimitar and falchion), spear/lance, mace, morningstar, flail, crossbow and one additional weapon based on your precise brotherhood/deity. The Holy Avenger sword would look very humble, but feel like it really "fits" on the guy in chain mail and a surcoat with a big ol' cross on it...and then he actually uses it and we all find out it's not _just_ a +4 sword. Give the Cleric Lay on Hands as well as Turn Undead from the start, and make the "spells" a slow trickle of powerful effects. My other favorite classes include Elf (or any other Fighter-Wizard combination who gets swords and armor), Ranger, and Bard.
@@BanditsKeep I don't believe every warrior needs to be able to use magic, but my favorite kinds of warriors very much do use magic. I would very much build a party consisting of a Paladin, Ranger, Bard, and Swordcerer but a purely scholarly wizard and a purely brawny warrior are straightforward enough archetypes to justify having classes dedicated to them.
5 Torches Deep is the game that renames them Zealots. Professor Dungeon Master of Dungeon Craft also has a video about how he handles clerics where he emphasizes the zealotry. Good video!
Good video! I enjoy these more so than actual play videos, largely because I don’t have the time for actual play videos. I would be very much interested in hearing your thoughts on demihumans as well as other aspects of the game, how you’ve utilized them, etc..... Thanks.
Moreover, actual play videos are generally boring as hell. I don't bother watching them anymore, even for games I don't play. It's usually tons of backstory, annoying banter, then ads for whatever the players are hawking on youtube or whatever. Then you get maybe 15 minutes of real content.
@@BanditsKeep Yeah, between Find Traps, Striking, and Flamestrike they can pretty much cover all the party roles, and aren't limited to what's in a spellbook. Though I never played clerics in B/X because who wants to wait a level for one of their major class features -- when you can be an elf and have it all at level 1? Even though Sticks to Snakes was really cool ... I also always found Detect Evil (& related spells) to be weird, since the alignment axis was Lawful-Chaotic.
@@glenndean6 I think you actually raise an important point about B/X. Although many traditionally “evil” creatures have a chaotic alignment, being chaotic is not what makes them evil. Alignment in B/X is not about good or evil. So the spells that are related to things like being good or evil are not necessarily related at all to alignment. I actually think this is intentional and one of the cooler aspects of the game because it focuses alignment not on morality but instead on a worldview.
We have tried more systems where clerics are not locked into the token healer or the dude who blasts demons and ghosts. And vice versa, where a wizard can use a spell slot for Heal Wounds. Sarabellum the wizard can do any spell a cleric can do, if she learns it as normal. It changed how we had to define the cleric, mechanically. It was impossible to give clerics a "magic monopoly" on certain magic effects like healing. Maybe the cleric rolls a skill or level-based chance to toss spells. What is the consequence of pushing your god for spells, if you aren't given a set amount of spell slots. We have thought about making some distinctions between gods and their different porfolios. Our best idea this far is to change up the spell list and add a few spells relevant to the god. A god of farmers and peasants could get a few spells relevant to plant control. Some storm-god can call lighting on a fool's head at higher levels.
Having been kicked out of seminary (not quite as interesting as it sounds) I like my clerics or priests to have a troubled past that he needs to come to terms with- yazirian priest in Star Frontiers expelled from the Family of One because he questioned the heavy-handedness of the at org- now he's a pariah to officials in the Fo1 and is discouraged and drinks to drown the depression. A B/X cleric that interacted with a elf maid and became infatuated with her then admitted that in confession and was kicked out of the abbey because of "unnatural affection" even though nothing happened between them. He now travels doing what good he can, hoping to redeem himself but also secretly hoping he might find the elf maid again. I like those kinds of troubled past for my priest characters. Any DM that can't use background grist like that in game isn't worth the title of DM. I've considered playing Friar Tuck like character out of Robinhood myth but built with the b/x magic user class - wears robes and carries a staff and his spells are a prayers. Just need a GM that will aid and abet me doing that (and for a troubled past- he was the confessor for a maid marrion type and revealed something she said in confession to his superior which reported it to someone or used it against her- perhaps he believes she was burned as a witch because of the revelation- she wasn't and is now a powerful witch and hates him) thus he feels guilt and betrayal by his superior. Alternately in a world where magic users are hunted by the church he is a magic user pretending to be a friar/holy person. That said I kind of like your proposed alternate magic system for b/x D&d as that would allow me to choose the right words for the magic user to cast prayers but even with RAW B/X there is enough overlap of majic user and cleric spells that the character could fake it. And just maybe the DM would let me research cure light wounds as a magic user spell.
Nice! I do like interesting back stories to help players fuel their play, but I don’t feel obligated as a DM to even use them in my campaign. The exception would be if this was discussed ahead of time. - this might be an interesting topic actually! I don’t see why a Magic user could not research a spell that is like cure light wounds
@@BanditsKeep True the DM is not obligated to use an individual back story but I for one love getting a good backstory that I can weave into the campaign.
I always gave priests extra XP for swaying other PCs toward their diety. My new world setting is run by the church. Theocracies abound and that can make for interesting plot hooks!
In basic and Advanced I too pretty much stuck to magic-users and thieves; however, I have taken a stab a playing a cleric in 5e and the class has grown on me (not just the 5e version). One observation I have always had was that clerics are more paladin (in pre-5e) than the paladin as paladins are perceived. In 5e, I think they made a step in the right direction with the paladin oaths; however, everything else is complete rubbish. I agree that the cleric is a zealot; therefore, it should be the cleric that wields the Holy Avenger, not the Paladin. While the cleric is the zealot to the clergy, the paladin is the most devout to the order of knights. Furthermore, the player of a cleric should absolutely ham it up. The suggestions you gave were perfect. I have even made the party say grace during our long rest meals...ok, they participated in ceremony. At the same time, I have explained to them that I do not follow a healing god, so healing is not going to be the first spell on the list. I think it is not unusual or out of line for a cleric to ransom healing from the party when they act against the cleric's tenants.
100% agree. Any cleric that leaves their temple/monastery/parish/whatever to go adventuring are either; 1) Wavering or lapsed in their faith to the point that the excitement of adventure for coin becomes more tempting. In which case are they really a cleric anymore? OR 2) They are so devout and full of religious zeal that they are compelled to take the word of their god to the far corners & depths of the world. Purging the unclean (i.e. killing them) and converting heathens (or killing them) - think conquistadors, crusaders and inquisitors. "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" Arnaud Amalric, C13th abbot.
Great video and perspective (like the thief video). Will be directing all my fellow players to your videos :) I remember how boring I felt the cleric was back in the red box.. luckily I have grown a bit since then.. such roleplay potential for clerics.
@Bandit's Keep Well, a lot of 5e players I have played with treat a cleric, and warlock for that matter as more of a wizard with no concern for their patrons desires. Perhaps the discarding of the alignment system is part of the cause?
@@scottmcley5111 It probably has less to do with system and more to do with why a players chooses to run a cleric or warlock. Obviously I can only speak from my own experience.
@Bandit's Keep This is my experience playing at my FLGS since 5e came out. New players (5e) don't worry about where the powers come from because there's no mechanics for losing them.
The character I'm playing at the moment was originally a Ranger, I was asked to convert her into a Cleric so I did. The game I was playing in used Star Trek characters as deities so I decided to base one on Deanna Troi's deceased sister Kestra. It was intended as a variation of Sehanine Moonbow, but my DM decided to use the Dawn Pantheon I think its called where Sehanine was Trickery domain. I went ahead and created my own deity Kestra a Celestial Lantern Archon in service to Sehanine Moonbow a Knowledge domain patron. I'm still working out the details as the game continues so far my character has been establishing shrines to my deity so it grants me access to my Refuge the abandoned Temple in the Feywild where my character grew up. My character was banished from another prime material world despite being Feyborn and is seeking a way back to check on her grandson who was left in hands of an ally after her attempt to thwart the bad guys sending her home into the Shadowfell (not her Refuge) got her promptly banished. Although she failed the banishment upset the ritual so it was her Refuge that was moved, she as yet hasn't been able to discover what happened after she was banished and her devotion is part and parcel of her quest to find out. Not sure if that fits a Cleric in d&d 5e.
This is why I never needed to multi class The Cleric was the fighter/magic user much like the elf Dwarf was fighter/thief much like the halfling But the elf and halfling played front loaded while the dwarf and cleric were back loaded in terms of progression and gained abilities.
We were always far more concerned with finding a supply of healing potions over just having one of us play a cleric. With age and the passage of time the clerics standing has improved a bit but as kids no one ever said "Hey I want to be a priest.".
I always saw Clerics as being misrepresented. The preacher on Sunday’s doesn’t walk around with a hammer dealing out divine justice. Clerics should have been redesigned as Holy Warriors ala Knights Templar. They should be a warrior first who has the ability to pray for divine intervention. Especially with the to hit tables they get from B/X and OSE they should have their spells greatly reduced.
I usually play my lawful clerics as priests first and foremost, who wear armor and carry weapons as a kind of space suit they need in order to survive and protect others in dark and violent places.
Allow healers to use first aid for a point or two of healing. Not every healer in the world uses magic and they would probably have worked in a hospital at one time (Hospitilar).
Clerics were originally designed to be monster hunters. They dont have to be religious. They can be driven by humanitarian desire to protect people from monsters, and still learn how to gain spells through meditation. and use holy symbols in the geniune belief that undea fear and are undone what the symbols represent. The sybmbols themselves can be conduits ot the Gods power.
Not certain I wholly embrace the cleric as zealot idea, thats certainly one trope. And it depends on what one means by zealot. Old School Forgotten Realms, though a bit schizophrenic on the subject, had a concept that I grocked with, because its also historical and makes sense to me. As a religion that is polytheistic, worship of all the gods is permitted. Every god has a niche and purpose in the cosmology. Polytheisim is far more tolerant than the monotheism we are culturally attuned to typically. So characters might pick 2 or 3 deities that embody their proclivities or world views. So a cleric that represents or worships all the gods of a particular culture or distinct religion isn't an incorrect approach to me. In old school games the Law vs Chaos dynamic might be far more important. Also, its the influx of a new, less tolerant religeon, or a cult dedicated to the exclusive worship of one god or being that can cause friction, and ensuing drama in a fictional world.
In Ars Magica, God is the immutable highest principle of the world. When your magi uses a spell to change the world, it will revert to the natural, logical order of the Creation. The closer something or someone is to God, the more immutable to magic it is. Aquelarre has a similar idea for faith. Every PC in Aquelarre can pray to the saints and the higher powers. Everyone balances between irrationality and magic, and the rational divine Creation. Everyone is a part of the three church hierarchies present on the Iberian peninsula. Coriolis has a system where, like in Aquelarre, everyone can pray. People routinely pray to the Icon that best represents everyday challenges ahead of them for a small skill bonus. Perks like unfaithful/strong faith affect the "luck roll" of space travel and random encounters. Either way, I like faith to be something that involves all characters. Even if they aren't divine spellcasters or receive a mechanical benefit. WFRP characters don't gain a mechanical benefit at all, but the different pantheon members and their aspects are important to life in the Old World. Someone who disrespects Manaan will get tossed overboard from a riverboat.
I agree but lean into the "order" part of militant order in the description (B/X or RC). I like the zealot in terms of people that like the more ancient Greek or Babylonian understanding (like when we were 10), but for the "templar" type it has to be tempered. I like to leave it generic too so "pantheon" for the former and "the Church" for the latter. I strongly dislike the deal where you get these individual religions and such, call me lazy. The player wants to make their own cult? Fine by me, get after it champ. But I am clear with any of the cleric types that I simply apply the system of classic virtue as refined by the church fathers, so they need to be examples of virtue as opposed to vice (unless they are chaotic, bad guy types of course). Throwing in lay clergy and priest, along with a specific cure-all or healer type, helps emphasize the special role of the cleric in the world too. Man what a fun game!
These days "The" 5e community has basically resorted to Warlocks to be that method of accessing the unknown or the powers in a setting. Even then they barely seem to tap into the potential of it. Gah... the older I get the more I want to have at least two session zeroes with each player to get their feet wet, and their characters invested, in the setting and to deprogram some things, before putting them together as a party.
Some OSR games limit how many spells you know. The gods in EE are jealous buggers who hook people in bit by bit. You get two spells at level 1, then one per level. Rolled from a table of spells depending on the god. I think it fit the theme, you are a cultist being snared into showing ever greater devotion to a weird thing whispering from the mythical underworld. I think 5e made you pick which spells you want
I totally disagree that a cleric must be a zealot. Back in the old days, someone was always playing a paladin, and that character was always played’Lawful Stupid’. There’s your zealot. We never needed two of those guys!
Great video-but, lately, I disagree strongly! The idea of “divine magic” (as a gift) ropes us into the cleric-as-zealot trope, because that’s what would make sense. However, I have never heard any anthropologist separate divine magic from arcane magic-that’s just pure D&D talk (probably due to the atmosphere of the “Satanic Panic” when people thought gamers were engaging in sorcery). So, if we forget about this imagined divide and keep all magic mysterious, then the cleric can have his spells but still have some crises of conscience. Let’s think about this: a world of incorruptible clergy? That sounds extremely “high-fantasy” to me.
If a cleric is just another wizard, why do they have different spell lists? The cleric has been with the game since 1974x, the panic was in the 80s so I don’t think that had anything to do with it.
The first time I played D&D B/X back in 1982 I played a cleric. I fell in love with the class and it still remains one of my favorite classes. I play my clerics as the crusader/monster hunter type and much less like a priest. It just feels more natural that way to me. I like the idea of a deity choosing somebody they see potential in to carry out their will and desire in the world.
Ah yes! Monster hunter / crusader is a great way to think of them
The witch hunter archetype is the origin of the Cleric class back in OD&D. This is how Dave Arneson, who originated the class, thought of them. Less “priest,” more “Van Helsing.” So I think your way of thinking of them, at least for OSR type games, is spot on. This also to me makes the whole wait until 2nd level before you get spells but you can turn undead at 1st level make so much more sense. Turning undead is because they are undead specialists and powered by their own will, not some divine granted ability like a spell. That comes after they prove to be effective undead destroyers.
That’s how you do it, baby!
Glad I found another good OSR channel. I like how you have a generally positive and informative approach to your content.
Thanks! Welcome aboard
I've recently been sold on the Cleric as presented in "Lion & Dragon" where they are chosen in their youth as evidenced by their ability to manifest miracles. They then sort into their own order separate from the regular clergy and are more like the Knights Templar. It does mean they can cast "spells" at 1st level, but personally I like that slightly more than the B/X paradigm of "proving yourself" because it's implied than "normal" clergy can manifest such miracles (indeed, IIRC, AD&D even has tables for buying spells at temples!). I'd rather keep the magic rare -- if every bishop can cast CLW, that changes medieval society way, way too much.
I was never fit temples selling healing spells personally
Great video! I used to catch HELL from groups I played in bc I played a cleric like a cleric. It's good to see I'm not alone in feeling that a cleric is more than a fighter with healing spells.
Amen!
I vote for videos on the demihuman races/classes in B/X. Race as class is one of the defining features of B/X so hearing your thoughts on this characteristic of the game I think would be great, especially juxtaposed against why there are only human thieves and clerics. Like this or not, these are defining features of this version of the game and well worth some videos IMHO.
Ah yes! It’s interesting when you say it that way - not why can’t denihumans be clerics, but why can humans??
Great video discussion of not only bringing the cleric to life, but also "how to role play" by giving your character purpose and personality. The numbers game frequently emphasized in today's hobby is very different from the way the game was and can still be played.
Listening to your channel (and a few others) has sharpened my awareness of what I like best in fantasy RPGs - resulting in me increasing my enjoyment of the hobby by concentrating on playing the right games for me. What is trendy or popular, or even what our friends like is not always what we will enjoy most.
Awesome. I agree, sometimes going outside what our circle of friends is doing can be a great way to find new things you (and maybe them as well) will enjoy.
I am currently playing a cleric in my solo campaign and I am loving the proselytism aspect of the class. And I like making up details and quirks for his faith (the Cult of Halav from the Karameikos Gazeteer): fast days, feasts, tithes. Also the flexibility in how spells are received every morning, gives the character a cool dynamism.
Cool, sounds fun!
We give clerics extra spell levels equal to wisdom bonus per day. So if your Wis is 15, you get 1 extra 1st level spell per day, including at 1st level. We also use the lay on hands ability from DCC, which is pretty cool, as well as the deity disfavor mechanic they use in DCC. The healing there is contingent upon alignment. You heal more if the other person is of the same alignment. Definitely adds a bit more flavor.
I do like the healing based on alignment, I’m not sure in a BX game that I would like what is Effectively unlimited healing like a DCC. But of course it really depends on the game you’re playing.
I have been a skeptic of alignments since the early days, but the DCC approach has breathed new life into the old school Law v Chaos thing for me, and that includes clerics. I love the DCC cleric: the disfavor rules, and the way the cleric can't heal someone of a different alignment without risk. If I end up running bx at some point in the future I will use that as a model
I agree
I have way too much to say on this subject for a simple comment. I will say that I appreciate DCC RPG's handling of the Cleric class best among published RPGs I have experience with. It may be random, but it at least manifests the fact that having a Cleric in your group affects the group's dynamic and relationships at least a bit, since healing is less effective when used on those who do not share the Cleric's Alignment.
In D&D, sadly, Clerics form a third of a Cursed Triad of character classes that I have never seen any player portray convincingly. At best, I get an obnoxious one-dimensional caricature. Over the years, I have been forced to prefer a shallow husk of a personality attached to a list of abilities valued by teammates. As an artist and a reformed zealot IRL, I have always found this tragic.
The Cursed Triad: Cleric--Paladin--Bard
Good points!
I love what Dungeon Crawl Classics does where clerics can turn different creatures and use different weapons depending on their alignment (and the alignment of their deity).
For sure
2e had specialty priests who could use representations of their deity's favored weapon; I like each having different granted powers and not all turned undead.
One easy way to distinguish clerics of different faiths is to slightly alter the spell list. 2e had divine portfolios and some options where clerics could use war doman or light domain spells etc.
In Esoteric Enterprises, each cult has their own d10 table of spells. A cult of Yig the snake-father is going to have spells about snakes and deceit and heat. A cult of protecting the dead are going to have spells to speak with dead spirits and darkness spells and such.
The cleric in the first game I run was a prist of Poseidon. He could not turn the undead, but he could call the lightning which was a lot of fun (and damage)
Awesome
The Cleric is probably my favorite class. Ive had some players use interesting Clerics over the years. Worshipping standard Deities like Cuthbert, but also Spider god, Fire god, the Lord of Swords, a god of hunting/ archery, a god of Light, a god of death. Most players made their own deity.
They each got a bonus relating to their religion, but paid the price with religious strictures, role playing, having to donate, even being called on by their order.
Ive had players prefer a Fighter because of " no rules " ( like the Cleric ) they had more freedom in their eyes.
Cool
What kind of perk did different gods give?
Commenting 3 yrs after this video was released. Bitd, I always thought the cleric didn't get their due in the early days. Imo, Forgotten Realms Finally put emphasis on clerics & made a subclass (specialty priests). When they did, my main campaign, (that set the stage for the Red Wizards of Thay boxed set) consisted mostly of specialty priests. Needless to say there was many philosophical discussions around the table! 😂
My first D&D character was a cleric. We played AD&D 1st edition. I remember healing inured party members and not being shy about swinging my mace to protect weaker party members. I've always loved the duality of the class, but I don't think I've ever played one as a zealot throughout the editions.
Cool, a cleric makes a great warrior/spell caster mix
Love the videos. “Cleric as a Zealot” is a stellar concept. All characters can be religious, but it is different to be so passionate you can draw power from it.
Indeed!
I'm always in favor of making faith something that all characters can take part in. Not every lutheran is a cleric. If class levels are rare, your local church hierarchy aren't going to be fully staffed by clerics trading miracles for faith.
Coriolis, Aquelarre and a few others have rules systems where faith is something involving every PC. Every PC in Aquelarre can pray to the saints, God is a force in everyone's life.
In Coriolis, everyone routinely prays to the Icon that best aspects their challenges ahead. PCs with feats like strong or weak faith affect group luck rolls. The Icons are not all sturm und drang, they are subtle.
I did play a cleric, recently.
Well... as Fred Daniel said in another comment: "what our friends like is not always what we will enjoy most"... I was not keen on it, but I did aim for getting something good out of it anyway, so I decided it was time to play a cleric.
I think I managed to make an interesting character, idea: A refugee travelling the world for to find his place in life. Fled from a nation in civil war (religious), searching for a place to settle in peace.
However the campaign got cut short due to RL issues. So I feel my character never got enough time for to come to life.
---
For what the cleric goes, then I will say:
If you are a one character party, then cleric is probably the best class for solo play.
I do understand why many shun the religious classes, due the way they perceive RL religion.
It is due to most RL religions people know, are hose around the Arbahamic God. -> An annoying monotheistic narcissistic God.
For a cleric, the world does have Polytheistic Gods who do not suffer from that "jealousy of other Gods"-complex.
So the insufferable missionary play-style people think a cleric is about, discourage them from playing clerics.
Something that discourage me from playing religious classes, is if the world do not include good world-building around Gods.
I have seen several world-builders make a crap pantheon, often what I call a "spreadsheet pantheon", a table with minimalist info on each God, and with no connection to the rest of the world-building.
How fun is it to play?
I am sad to say: I have seen far too many spreadsheet pantheons.
Ok, I do understand it from a world-building perspective: How much effort do you want to put into something people are not going to play anyway?
I say: They are not going to play, if you do not give them the chance!
What I find interesting about clerics is they are (supposed to be) respected members of society. (Which is only the case if the DM do not see clerics as being the usual insufferable missionaries.)
And they have a good start for role play around what goes on with Gods. (If the world-building is well done when it come to the Gods.)
Sadly there are (I have seen far too) many ways playing a cleric can end up disappointing:
(A) Undeads. - You will encounter undeads once in a while as long as there are no cleric types in the group.
The moment a cleric enters the party, there are 3 common outcomes:
(1) The group encounters one group of undeads, and from then on never meets undeads again. (Usually that is the way a new DM does it.)
(2) The group never encounters undeads. (Usually that is the way an experienced DM does it.)
(3) The group only encounters home-brew undeads with ultra high saving-throws making them always save vs. the cleric's powers. (Usually the veteran DM's way.)
(B) Healing Potion. - The Cleric is a self-recharging Healing Potion following along with the party. (Your usual classic DM => "Disaster Master".)
(C) The God(s) do not care. (In reality it is the DM who does not care.)
---
In short: The main problem with clerics is the other players, especially the DM.
Surely those are not the only 3 options for undead 😂. If the party enters tombs and graveyards they will likely encounter undead - if they go to goblin caves or spend time in towns likely not. While I do believe a DM should give more consideration to a Cleric “blaming” them seems off base to me. D&D is collaborative.
I do not say they are the only 3 options, those are according to what I have seen, just the most common options.
Cleric is, sadly enough, a class often hated upon.
Only less popular class is the Bard.
And that make those unpopular classes less interesting to play, as the DM will remove situations where those classes could shine.
The OG cleric archetype were the Teutonic Knights and Knights Templar. Helps put things into context.
Indeed - also based on a vampire hunter in blackmoor pre-D&D
I love playing clerics… it also can give you a real direction on a character depending on your god that you worship. Also it’s probably the most well rounded class out there…
Indeed
I am playing two characters in a small group AD&D 1E game. A cleric and a monk. The DM has a lot of house rules especially for the monk class. They are very close, twins-close, and are equally devout in the worship of their god.
Lucian and Sorin are irish-twin brothers (2 consecutive single births less than 1 full year in age difference, 10 months in their case). They were both raised in the same Apostu's mission for the worship of Tengri. Sorin was trained to be a religious monk and has training in proper Tengri worship, while Lucian was trained to be a warrior monk and is more indoctrinated in the old ancestor worship and nature spirit ways of the Yamnayan culture. They are close and spend a lot of time together so they have a lot of bleedover of spiritual practices and weapons techniques.
Nicely done! Unfortunately in the newer editions of dnd, clerics are one of number of different spell slingers. There is often nothing really special or unique about them, and the glut of healing options they bring makes many games cartoonish. Your take on things was really great!
Thanks! Do you think that those mechanical differences will make role playing the cleric in this way more difficult?
Cleric has always been my favorite class. Frontline combat, healer, support, buffer, crowd control, Undead killing specialist- it has so many roles and does them well or is 1st-rate at them.
I feel like I always have to defend them against ignorant players who think they're just there to heal or turn Undead. Sure, they are almost the only source of heals a party might have. But they have so much capability to get rid of the source of damage, Which is far more efficient than putting Band-Aids on the damage itself.
For sure
"By Grabthars Hammer, by the Suns of Worvan, you shall be avenged..."
It's the one thing anyone really remembered about Dr. Lazarus. Wait... he was also the healer. Was Dr. Lazarus a Cleric?
What is that from?
@@BanditsKeep Galaxy Quest
Cleric and Paladin are two of my favorite classes, because they're _basically the same class_ . A lot of people have beef with the Paladin Code, because how dare fantastical powers granted by a benevolent supernatural force require you to actually use said powers in a benevolent way yourself! It's on your character sheet therefore it's yours to do with as you please, regardless of consequences or ethics or the Alignment written way up top with your name!
The way the B/X Cleric is treated in Holmes and Moldvay in the flavor text is exactly spot on. "My god might not want to heal someone who broke his oath" - people tend to forget that the Cleric, too, is beholden to a Higher Power even if it's not laid out in _as explicit of detail_ as the Paladin.
My solution is just to merge the two. Maybe instead of "blunt weapons only" the Crusader class is given a proscriptive list of allowed weapons based on fulfilling the medieval crusader look - cruciform swords (shortsword and longsword but not scimitar and falchion), spear/lance, mace, morningstar, flail, crossbow and one additional weapon based on your precise brotherhood/deity. The Holy Avenger sword would look very humble, but feel like it really "fits" on the guy in chain mail and a surcoat with a big ol' cross on it...and then he actually uses it and we all find out it's not _just_ a +4 sword. Give the Cleric Lay on Hands as well as Turn Undead from the start, and make the "spells" a slow trickle of powerful effects.
My other favorite classes include Elf (or any other Fighter-Wizard combination who gets swords and armor), Ranger, and Bard.
Cool ideas. Would seem to me you would no longer need the fighter in this situation either - perhaps just cleric/paladins and fighter/wizards
@@BanditsKeep I don't believe every warrior needs to be able to use magic, but my favorite kinds of warriors very much do use magic.
I would very much build a party consisting of a Paladin, Ranger, Bard, and Swordcerer but a purely scholarly wizard and a purely brawny warrior are straightforward enough archetypes to justify having classes dedicated to them.
5 Torches Deep is the game that renames them Zealots. Professor Dungeon Master of Dungeon Craft also has a video about how he handles clerics where he emphasizes the zealotry.
Good video!
Awesome, thanks! I need to run some of that 5 torches, the book is always staring at my from my shelf lol
It's good; I've been running it for about a year, although I mash it up with B/X a good bit on the DM side.
Always wanted to play a death cleric who healed on credit. “I can expect your tithe for postponing your inevitable end on the next holy day?”
Nice
Good video! I enjoy these more so than actual play videos, largely because I don’t have the time for actual play videos. I would be very much interested in hearing your thoughts on demihumans as well as other aspects of the game, how you’ve utilized them, etc..... Thanks.
Awesome! I hear you.
Moreover, actual play videos are generally boring as hell. I don't bother watching them anymore, even for games I don't play. It's usually tons of backstory, annoying banter, then ads for whatever the players are hawking on youtube or whatever. Then you get maybe 15 minutes of real content.
@@sunsin1592 I guess to each their own.
Level 1 Cleric: Lousy fighter.
Level 9 Cleric: Most powerful character in the game.
Ha ha, I’m not so sure about that, but certainly considering their spell casting they are very versatile.
@@BanditsKeep Yeah, between Find Traps, Striking, and Flamestrike they can pretty much cover all the party roles, and aren't limited to what's in a spellbook.
Though I never played clerics in B/X because who wants to wait a level for one of their major class features -- when you can be an elf and have it all at level 1? Even though Sticks to Snakes was really cool ...
I also always found Detect Evil (& related spells) to be weird, since the alignment axis was Lawful-Chaotic.
Fair enough - though as I mentioned I personally don’t see spell casting as their main focus.
@@glenndean6 I think you actually raise an important point about B/X. Although many traditionally “evil” creatures have a chaotic alignment, being chaotic is not what makes them evil. Alignment in B/X is not about good or evil. So the spells that are related to things like being good or evil are not necessarily related at all to alignment. I actually think this is intentional and one of the cooler aspects of the game because it focuses alignment not on morality but instead on a worldview.
We have tried more systems where clerics are not locked into the token healer or the dude who blasts demons and ghosts. And vice versa, where a wizard can use a spell slot for Heal Wounds. Sarabellum the wizard can do any spell a cleric can do, if she learns it as normal.
It changed how we had to define the cleric, mechanically. It was impossible to give clerics a "magic monopoly" on certain magic effects like healing. Maybe the cleric rolls a skill or level-based chance to toss spells. What is the consequence of pushing your god for spells, if you aren't given a set amount of spell slots.
We have thought about making some distinctions between gods and their different porfolios. Our best idea this far is to change up the spell list and add a few spells relevant to the god. A god of farmers and peasants could get a few spells relevant to plant control. Some storm-god can call lighting on a fool's head at higher levels.
Cool
Having been kicked out of seminary (not quite as interesting as it sounds) I like my clerics or priests to have a troubled past that he needs to come to terms with- yazirian priest in Star Frontiers expelled from the Family of One because he questioned the heavy-handedness of the at org- now he's a pariah to officials in the Fo1 and is discouraged and drinks to drown the depression. A B/X cleric that interacted with a elf maid and became infatuated with her then admitted that in confession and was kicked out of the abbey because of "unnatural affection" even though nothing happened between them. He now travels doing what good he can, hoping to redeem himself but also secretly hoping he might find the elf maid again. I like those kinds of troubled past for my priest characters. Any DM that can't use background grist like that in game isn't worth the title of DM. I've considered playing Friar Tuck like character out of Robinhood myth but built with the b/x magic user class - wears robes and carries a staff and his spells are a prayers. Just need a GM that will aid and abet me doing that (and for a troubled past- he was the confessor for a maid marrion type and revealed something she said in confession to his superior which reported it to someone or used it against her- perhaps he believes she was burned as a witch because of the revelation- she wasn't and is now a powerful witch and hates him) thus he feels guilt and betrayal by his superior. Alternately in a world where magic users are hunted by the church he is a magic user pretending to be a friar/holy person. That said I kind of like your proposed alternate magic system for b/x D&d as that would allow me to choose the right words for the magic user to cast prayers but even with RAW B/X there is enough overlap of majic user and cleric spells that the character could fake it. And just maybe the DM would let me research cure light wounds as a magic user spell.
Nice! I do like interesting back stories to help players fuel their play, but I don’t feel obligated as a DM to even use them in my campaign. The exception would be if this was discussed ahead of time. - this might be an interesting topic actually! I don’t see why a Magic user could not research a spell that is like cure light wounds
@@BanditsKeep True the DM is not obligated to use an individual back story but I for one love getting a good backstory that I can weave into the campaign.
I always gave priests extra XP for swaying other PCs toward their diety. My new world setting is run by the church. Theocracies abound and that can make for interesting plot hooks!
In basic and Advanced I too pretty much stuck to magic-users and thieves; however, I have taken a stab a playing a cleric in 5e and the class has grown on me (not just the 5e version). One observation I have always had was that clerics are more paladin (in pre-5e) than the paladin as paladins are perceived. In 5e, I think they made a step in the right direction with the paladin oaths; however, everything else is complete rubbish. I agree that the cleric is a zealot; therefore, it should be the cleric that wields the Holy Avenger, not the Paladin. While the cleric is the zealot to the clergy, the paladin is the most devout to the order of knights. Furthermore, the player of a cleric should absolutely ham it up. The suggestions you gave were perfect. I have even made the party say grace during our long rest meals...ok, they participated in ceremony. At the same time, I have explained to them that I do not follow a healing god, so healing is not going to be the first spell on the list. I think it is not unusual or out of line for a cleric to ransom healing from the party when they act against the cleric's tenants.
Nice! I agree
100% agree. Any cleric that leaves their temple/monastery/parish/whatever to go adventuring are either;
1) Wavering or lapsed in their faith to the point that the excitement of adventure for coin becomes more tempting. In which case are they really a cleric anymore? OR
2) They are so devout and full of religious zeal that they are compelled to take the word of their god to the far corners & depths of the world. Purging the unclean (i.e. killing them) and converting heathens (or killing them) - think conquistadors, crusaders and inquisitors. "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" Arnaud Amalric, C13th abbot.
Indeed
Great video and perspective (like the thief video). Will be directing all my fellow players to your videos :) I remember how boring I felt the cleric was back in the red box.. luckily I have grown a bit since then.. such roleplay potential for clerics.
Yes, clerics can be super fun to role-play Thank You!
Best OSR channel on the internet! Subscribed!
Thank You!
I think Cleric is probably the one classic class (aside from race as class, haven't done those as a player) I haven't played
I don’t play them much, but they can be fun
You should make a playlist that has all the “How to play“ videos
🤔 not a bad idea
Every 5e player needs to watch this video. So many times the God's desires never come into play.
Not sure why the system would matter here.
@Bandit's Keep Well, a lot of 5e players I have played with treat a cleric, and warlock for that matter as more of a wizard with no concern for their patrons desires. Perhaps the discarding of the alignment system is part of the cause?
@@scottmcley5111 It probably has less to do with system and more to do with why a players chooses to run a cleric or warlock. Obviously I can only speak from my own experience.
@Bandit's Keep This is my experience playing at my FLGS since 5e came out. New players (5e) don't worry about where the powers come from because there's no mechanics for losing them.
Charging for healing ... very televangelist of them.
Indeed
The character I'm playing at the moment was originally a Ranger, I was asked to convert her into a Cleric so I did. The game I was playing in used Star Trek characters as deities so I decided to base one on Deanna Troi's deceased sister Kestra.
It was intended as a variation of Sehanine Moonbow, but my DM decided to use the Dawn Pantheon I think its called where Sehanine was Trickery domain.
I went ahead and created my own deity Kestra a Celestial Lantern Archon in service to Sehanine Moonbow a Knowledge domain patron.
I'm still working out the details as the game continues so far my character has been establishing shrines to my deity so it grants me access to my Refuge the abandoned Temple in the Feywild where my character grew up.
My character was banished from another prime material world despite being Feyborn and is seeking a way back to check on her grandson who was left in hands of an ally after her attempt to thwart the bad guys sending her home into the Shadowfell (not her Refuge) got her promptly banished.
Although she failed the banishment upset the ritual so it was her Refuge that was moved, she as yet hasn't been able to discover what happened after she was banished and her devotion is part and parcel of her quest to find out.
Not sure if that fits a Cleric in d&d 5e.
That sounds pretty awesome to me
This is why I never needed to multi class
The Cleric was the fighter/magic user much like the elf
Dwarf was fighter/thief much like the halfling
But the elf and halfling played front loaded while the dwarf and cleric were back loaded in terms of progression and gained abilities.
Interesting point.
We were always far more concerned with finding a supply of healing potions over just having one of us play a cleric. With age and the passage of time the clerics standing has improved a bit but as kids no one ever said "Hey I want to be a priest.".
I can see that for sure
Yes please do the demihuman video! Thnx
This is shall do!
@@BanditsKeep Awesome!! 👍
I always saw Clerics as being misrepresented. The preacher on Sunday’s doesn’t walk around with a hammer dealing out divine justice. Clerics should have been redesigned as Holy Warriors ala Knights Templar. They should be a warrior first who has the ability to pray for divine intervention. Especially with the to hit tables they get from B/X and OSE they should have their spells greatly reduced.
I agree with the holy knight idea. Not sure I’d reduce their spells. I do believe the fighters kinda get screwed with the BX attack tables though!
I usually play my lawful clerics as priests first and foremost, who wear armor and carry weapons as a kind of space suit they need in order to survive and protect others in dark and violent places.
Makes sense
Allow healers to use first aid for a point or two of healing. Not every healer in the world uses magic and they would probably have worked in a hospital at one time (Hospitilar).
I think we didn’t get into the idea of our hit points actually wounds? And I’m not sure that they’re supposed to be.
Are they dying of fright? The rules call hit points 'damage' so perhaps a point or two of damage can be repaired however you consider it. Your game :)
@@arnman2093 Could be a cut, a bruise, a twisted muscle, just being worn out in general... I tend to go by the 1e DMG which states as much.
Morgan Ironwolf... I hope she's in the movie
We can only wish
Clerics were originally designed to be monster hunters. They dont have to be religious. They can be driven by humanitarian desire to protect people from monsters, and still learn how to gain spells through meditation. and use holy symbols in the geniune belief that undea fear and are undone what the symbols represent. The sybmbols themselves can be conduits ot the Gods power.
That’s certainly a fun way to play them.
Had no idea BX was so different from ODnD/Greyhawk.
They each have their own flavor for sure
Not certain I wholly embrace the cleric as zealot idea, thats certainly one trope. And it depends on what one means by zealot. Old School Forgotten Realms, though a bit schizophrenic on the subject, had a concept that I grocked with, because its also historical and makes sense to me. As a religion that is polytheistic, worship of all the gods is permitted. Every god has a niche and purpose in the cosmology. Polytheisim is far more tolerant than the monotheism we are culturally attuned to typically. So characters might pick 2 or 3 deities that embody their proclivities or world views. So a cleric that represents or worships all the gods of a particular culture or distinct religion isn't an incorrect approach to me. In old school games the Law vs Chaos dynamic might be far more important. Also, its the influx of a new, less tolerant religeon, or a cult dedicated to the exclusive worship of one god or being that can cause friction, and ensuing drama in a fictional world.
True - it really depends on your world and systems, I prefer small cults vs a pantheon that an entire realm worships myself.
In Ars Magica, God is the immutable highest principle of the world. When your magi uses a spell to change the world, it will revert to the natural, logical order of the Creation. The closer something or someone is to God, the more immutable to magic it is.
Aquelarre has a similar idea for faith. Every PC in Aquelarre can pray to the saints and the higher powers. Everyone balances between irrationality and magic, and the rational divine Creation. Everyone is a part of the three church hierarchies present on the Iberian peninsula.
Coriolis has a system where, like in Aquelarre, everyone can pray. People routinely pray to the Icon that best represents everyday challenges ahead of them for a small skill bonus. Perks like unfaithful/strong faith affect the "luck roll" of space travel and random encounters.
Either way, I like faith to be something that involves all characters. Even if they aren't divine spellcasters or receive a mechanical benefit. WFRP characters don't gain a mechanical benefit at all, but the different pantheon members and their aspects are important to life in the Old World. Someone who disrespects Manaan will get tossed overboard from a riverboat.
For sure
I agree but lean into the "order" part of militant order in the description (B/X or RC). I like the zealot in terms of people that like the more ancient Greek or Babylonian understanding (like when we were 10), but for the "templar" type it has to be tempered. I like to leave it generic too so "pantheon" for the former and "the Church" for the latter. I strongly dislike the deal where you get these individual religions and such, call me lazy. The player wants to make their own cult? Fine by me, get after it champ.
But I am clear with any of the cleric types that I simply apply the system of classic virtue as refined by the church fathers, so they need to be examples of virtue as opposed to vice (unless they are chaotic, bad guy types of course). Throwing in lay clergy and priest, along with a specific cure-all or healer type, helps emphasize the special role of the cleric in the world too. Man what a fun game!
For sure
These days "The" 5e community has basically resorted to Warlocks to be that method of accessing the unknown or the powers in a setting. Even then they barely seem to tap into the potential of it.
Gah... the older I get the more I want to have at least two session zeroes with each player to get their feet wet, and their characters invested, in the setting and to deprogram some things, before putting them together as a party.
Warlocks replace Clerics in the role you feel?
@@BanditsKeep They even have Heal-locks. Just tells me that they don't understand Clerics
And they don't have to learn spells. They know them all from the strating
Indeed
Some OSR games limit how many spells you know. The gods in EE are jealous buggers who hook people in bit by bit. You get two spells at level 1, then one per level. Rolled from a table of spells depending on the god. I think it fit the theme, you are a cultist being snared into showing ever greater devotion to a weird thing whispering from the mythical underworld.
I think 5e made you pick which spells you want
Please make a video on playong demihumans
I shall
@@BanditsKeep Looking forward to it!
Clerics are based off of the Holy Crusaders and Templars, not weak little healers.
Why not both?
@@BanditsKeep ask Gygax, he's the one who made the game that wrote them.
I totally disagree that a cleric must be a zealot. Back in the old days, someone was always playing a paladin, and that character was always played’Lawful Stupid’. There’s your zealot. We never needed two of those guys!
How should the cleric act then? Less zealous than the Paladin? Or are you saying neither works for your play style?
Great video-but, lately, I disagree strongly! The idea of “divine magic” (as a gift) ropes us into the cleric-as-zealot trope, because that’s what would make sense. However, I have never heard any anthropologist separate divine magic from arcane magic-that’s just pure D&D talk (probably due to the atmosphere of the “Satanic Panic” when people thought gamers were engaging in sorcery). So, if we forget about this imagined divide and keep all magic mysterious, then the cleric can have his spells but still have some crises of conscience. Let’s think about this: a world of incorruptible clergy? That sounds extremely “high-fantasy” to me.
If a cleric is just another wizard, why do they have different spell lists? The cleric has been with the game since 1974x, the panic was in the 80s so I don’t think that had anything to do with it.