Oberheim Matrix 1000 vs OB-X8 // A Vintage Gem that deserves a closer look
Vložit
- čas přidán 27. 05. 2024
- Get Access to exclusive tutorials samples, patches and help support the channel through Patreon / starskycarr
The Oberheim OB-X8 is an incredible sounding all-in-one OBX, OBSX, OB8 and OB-Xa but that comes with a considerable price tag. The Matrix 1000 is a true Oberheim (albeit with different innards) that's been a staple in studios for 3 decades. There's an amazingly flexible, warm sounding, fat little synth hiding in this little box. Putting it in a modern context vs the latest release from Oberheim tells an interesting story.
It always was a budget version of that Oberheim sound coming in at lower cost that the Matrix 6 or the Matrix 6R but how does it stack up in 2022. There are plenty of editors, and firmware to help it overcome some of its tweaking shortcomings.
Here's a demo of how it sounds compared to the fabulous OB-X8 and how I've been using it - which editors I found most useful etc.
All-in-all I've very impressed by it, a forgotten gem from the 90s that deserves a closer look!
Affiliate Links:
Perfect Circuit www.pjtra.com/t/SENKTExLTUtDS...
Thomann thmn.to/thocf/xpnsixr8gp
Amazon www.amazon.co.uk/shop/starsky...
Reverb reverb.grsm.io/6mtwzga2a4ys
Other places you’ll find me:
► Instagram: / starskycarr
► Facebook: / starskycarr
► Twitter: / starskycarr
► Bandcamp starskycarr.bandcamp.com/rele...
► Clubbing TV From the Studio:
• From The Studio
links:
software editors
ctrlr.org/tag/matrix-1000/
ctrlr.org/?ddownload=68352
dqueffeulou.free.fr/softs/m100...
maxforlive.com/library/device...
coffeeshopped.com/patch-base
for iPad
apps.apple.com/us/app/matrix-...
hardware editors
www.stereoping.com/synth-cont...
www.alpesmachines.net
firmware
www.untergeek.de/howto/oberhe...
tauntek.com/Matrix1000Firmware...
0:00 intro
1:45 Sound 1: Fifth Swell
5:38 Sound 2: It's an Oberheim
8:22 Sound 3: Tom Sawyer Reso Bass
11:06 Getting Geeky
13:28 OB-Xa Sounds: Strings II
15:50 OB-Xa Sounds: Synthy Brass
16:41 Software Editors
18:00 Hardware Editors
18:28 It's deceptively complex
#oberheim #obx8 #matrix1000 #demo - Hudba
Fun fact: In the 90s I visited a trade show and had my Matrix 1000 with me to get it signed by Tom Oberheim. Tom then said that he would not sign it because the development had been done by another company and it was not an Oberheim product.
Yeah it was bought by Gibson. The board was redesigned (or at least slimmed down) and manufactured in Japan. So not a true 100% Oberheim design but one based in his matrix 6.
Nice story btw.
That's funny, because the first synth he launched, back to bussiness under the Marion Systems brand, the Prosynth, was based completely on the architecture of the Matrix, with an upgraded version of the 3396 synth-on-a-chip...
@@kaiwetronic that's due synth-on-a-chip looking like a future-tech that is cheap enough to still be able to compete with DX7, D50 and the likes. Oberheim used "CEM3397" not because it was based on the architecture of Matrix, but because there was nothing else "better" in an analog synth realm at the time. SoC was "cutting edge". More like corner-cutting-edge but, hey, late 80s, early 90s - analog synths were considered "dead", nobody wanted to buy something that had only 8 voices for a price of 64 voice competition with much wider sonic palette.
@Starsky Carr I thought he didn't work on the Matrix 6, which came out in 85/86 IIRC?
yes, i just rediscovered my matrix1000s ... i use 2 in parallel, and this gives a nice stereo sound
Got a Matrix 2000 too Lol. But I don‘t think I will be able to resist the X8 as I have always wanted an X and/or Xa. It‘s an „Obsession“ 😉😁
@@danielfisch389
That's sad. 😪
Maybe a therapy will help?
@@henrikgerlach4765 If I had bought (and there had been several occasions) an X or Xa when the prices still were under 10 000 € a few years ago, I very likely would have needed therapy, as the originals often tend to be difficult to service, unless you are lucky. I am friends with three professional players who have the originals. As I am no tech, I would have to spend a fortune on servicing and maintenance. From that point of view, buying a new one seems to be the reasonable option. But to each their own. But thanks for your concern.
phase issue. i would go for a stereo chorus like the one-o-six ;)
@@BIM0X Sorry but the "phase issue" is bullsh*t. There's no phasing problem at all. No chorus can beat the natural chorus effect of two Matrixes hard panned and slightly detuned. 😉👌
Edit: I see, you just want to find a reason for people to buy your chorus...
ABSOLUTELY LOVE the Matrix 6/6R/1000! Best bang for your buck in the vintage analog world, along with the Roland JX-3P!
Keep up the wonderful content Starsky, thank you!
always preferred the cheetah
@@saren6538 What are the differences?
@@saren6538 I've still got my MS6
They were bang for buck 6 or 7 years ago before everyone that wanted a Jupiter or a Juno realized they couldn't afford one.
Luckily I preempted where that was all going and bought several lesser known or coverted analogue polysynths for between £50-£100 in need of repair
Unfortunately the JX3s I bought, I sold a bit premature at £450 just before prices jumped likewise with the Korg poly61s. I kept one because I had to -rebuild- bodge the keybed and didn't think it would have been fair to sell it. Also Kept the AX73.
Would pay what JX3p sell for now
Bought my Matrix 1000 brand new in 1987 for 700 bucks and still have it in pristine condition. Wouldn't even think of getting rid of it. Yes, the firmware update makes it more stable with external editors and even better at what it already does. Thanks, Starsky! Great video, as always.
Should have bought it instead of the Kawai K4r. The K4 is a good synth, but only at simulating Analog with very short ROM samples. I bought it for natural Piano sounds etc.
I bought thr wrong rack synth for the wrong reason. lol
Just had a look around and holy crap I can't believe how much the prices for a Matrix 1000 have shot up in the last couple of years.
true
bought one for 300 in 2000. To me it feels like the last time people my age were able to score "vintage synths" at bargain prices (too young to have seen 303s and ms20s for peanuts) - still feels weird seeing this synth rise to "vintage prices", especially because all that price hike does nothing for me, plan on using it for ever
@@brmbklYeah, just checked and mine was $230 in 2009. But on the plus side for people starting out now, there's a vast amount of affordable NEW analog stuff, which was essentially non-existent back in the 00s.
Man... thanks a zillion...!!
This is the one...!
PS.- upgrading the firmware is a must... gives you smoother response when programming with editors and the ability to detune the voices for massive unison patches or dense pads...
This is the video I needed - bought a 1000 yesterday. It’s freezing on start up - but this reminds me why it is worth sorting out. Thanks
Nice. I’ve purchased the updated firmware EPROM, maybe something like that could help? Only about £30
@@StarskyCarr it’s order and on the way! Cheers for all the videos. Super useful.
great video as always! your sherman filterbank ones are the best! Thank you!
12:00 and now some (technical wankery) explanation to that for musicians who may or may not give a hoot about it! 🙂
Matrix6 DCO's gets its master frequency from 3 HF LCO's and 3 separate 3bit prescalers (LCO's yes voltage controlled coil based VCO's) while in the M1000 these are removed and instead have
one 16bit frequency prescaler for all DCOs. The High frequency LCOs receives the de-tune , bend and vibrato/lfo CV's, DCO1 gets LCO1 frequency, DCO2 gets LCO2 frequency, LCO3 is for the split mode , this makes the DCO more VCOish you could argue. The peculiar detail is that on M6 and M1000 (applies to all Roland DCO based machines aswell and basically any 8253 timer based DCO)
although very small, every note are slightly out of tune except the root/base frequency note, 440hz whatever, this "out of tune" is always perfect for all DCO's in the machine and it does not drift
around , this due to the frequency divide principle used for the DCO's while the VCO' in the OBX8 can have close to perfect pitch (DA resolution + VCO linearity) on every key but will slightly drift
around (all VCO's in different directions and speed) due to temperature affecting the exponential converter( an analog thing that converts linear voltage to an exponential current). So yes they
all differ from each other and add the Xpander/M12 to the list yet again these are quite different from the M6, M1000 and OBX8 and thats all fun and intriguing for the musician to explore.
I’ve read this 3 times now!
@@StarskyCarr WHY!!! Why Starsky Why!!?? lol
@@deadmanwalking6342 haha.. trying to understand it! 😂😂
@@StarskyCarr :-) It's even more to it but it becomes so technically detailed folks have to understand electronics to be able to get something out of it. Then we have the whole "background tuning" scheme you find in Xpander M12, A6, Prophet 6, OB6 a chapter on its own. Not to forget Moog One , this very odd VCO-DCO hybrid and electronically very convoluted oscillator, even patented.
… and to think there was nearly a 15yr period (in the US anyway) when you could easily find a used Matrix 1000 for $300-$350 any day of the week. I "picked one up" near the end of 2013 for $300 in great shape… I think that was about the end of that era of pricing for this synth.
Yes, now they cost are more than 999 US dollars 🤮
This was way before the Tauntek OS upgrade which now makes the Matrix 1000 a fully controllable synth.
@@fjfrancois Rightfully! They are worth so much more with the new OS update.
I bought my matrix (white one) on release and still use it to this day
I am waiting for the OB-X8 Desktop. But if they ever decide to reissue the Matrix-12...!
I had an M1000 and really liked it. The stock fretless bass patch was 😍
So basically, after watching your video, I feel like with my ob6 I am covered on the SEM side of things,and with my matrix6 I am covered on the CEM side. Sweet.
I never thought of it that way… 😀
Wow, this is an awesome comparison. I would not have thought to compare these, I'm impressed by how great the old Matrix 1000 sounds!
no knobs.
@@SPAZZOID100 True, but you can just pick up an external programmer and still be paying way less than an OBX.
@@SPAZZOID100 i see it as and advantage, i wish there were more synth brains like this
I have a Matrix-1000 that I've owned for nearly 30 years. I acquired it by trading my friend his Matrix 1000 for my Roland MKS-50. I had sold my Oberheim Xpander a year earlier. However, I still wanted an analog synth with a flexible/powerful architecture.The Matrix 1000 seemed like an affordable, space efficient option. But even I was surprised at how well the Matrix 1000 held up against the OB-X8. Of course, the resonance on the OB-X8 sounds noticeably better than the whistling resonance on the Matrix. And the envelopes on the Matrix 1000 don't sound anywhere near as musical as those on the OB-X8. But for the price, the Matrix 1000 is still a great sounding, flexible little synth. I think it sounds better than my 16-voice Sequential Prophet REV2 module.
I love my matrix-1000 and matrix-6. I made so many inspiring patches on them with the crazy mod matrix stuff. it's a really expressive instrument
I've seen many times people disdaining matrix 1000. my matrix has seen two Juno 106 and two alpha Junos come and go. I got my matrix for peanuts compared to the 106 , let alone obx8.. who's laughing now?
Absolutely, I listened to the first few minutes and it was clear the matrix has more a more pleasing sound for several types of sounds, including some of the more famous matrix 6/1000 strings. He didn't cover those, and they are the favorites among matrix owners. BTW, a couple patches I'm referring referring to are presets. The matrix 1000 is not as perfect sounding and precise as the obx8, but that's what makes the sound richer and more animated. And there's a character these have. A lot of owners I've talk with agree that the "matrix 6/1000 sound" is unique on it's own in some ways, for some patches in particular. Nothing else I've used can match this quality that comes out from those. I've also owned the OBxa and the matrix 6/1000 is superior or better said as "unique" to the obxa in this type of quality I speak of. This quality common to all the matrix 6/1000 variants is especially prominent in some of tbeir string and brass patches. I picked my Matrix 1000 for $150 almost 20 years ago now. Never had any issues with it. In the last 5 years I came across some deals I couldn't turn down on a matrix 6 keyboard and a matrix 6 rack. I was motivated to get a couple spares, and I do think the matrix 6 sounds even better in some ways besides the fact that all of these vintage gear holds an "analog" advantage at least for the next 5 - 10 years over the obx8. It's the age tself and the subtle differences and imperfections that derive from aging at least for now the obx8 wont be able to touch until it too becomes a vintage. Also no "vintage knob" gimmick I've used can substitute for real aging effects. Plus for matrix 6 owners, as I mentioned the matrix 6 has a better sound than the 1000. There is a subtle HW distinction between the matrix 6 vs 1000 which turns out to result in a better, somewhat significant difference in the richness of the sound of the matrix 6. From my experience using all 3 over the years the reliability is good, no issues so far but at some point I'm sure I'll have to get out the o-scope and soldering iron and fix something. That could be the deal breaker for many who now own these and may motivate them to sell them at a lower price to afford a obx with warranty and hopefully a 30 year+ life after that.
I m one of those people. The Matrix 1000 doesn't respond to program change messages properly in a song
@@rachelar Tauntek ROM upgrade...
Well, it has no interface nor keyboard.
I have a Matrix 6 and Juno 106 , owned since the 80s and both in pristine condition, they are so different and while many other vintage analogs have come and gone in my studio these two will never leave my side.
Really holds its own. Def better at a couple things. I remember these sounding surprisingly great but this is pretty interesting next to the X8.
I love the behaviour and feeling warm on matrix but some patches are pretty close.. thnx Starsky
Love that you’ve done this! Got my 1000 for 200 bucks not that far back :)
Its crazy how the price of the matrix 1000 has gone up over the years (and analogue gear in general). I've bought two of them over the years, the last in 2009 came to the princely sum of £225. I recommend the alpes machines matrix ctlr, full control over all parameters, and even an arpeggiator/sequencer and chord memory.
The Alpes Machines controller seems to be sold out since 2022.
@@crhkrebs stereoping?
@@jamaharon yes, they make an edition for the Matrix synths. But do they do anything more than the Synthmania VST programmer?
@@crhkrebs if you don't care to use software i use the ctrl-r, works great, preset management is amazing too
They both sound really nice. The Matrix has a lot more fizzle/noisy high end and the OB-X8 is just so damn smooth. Both could be used to make beautiful tracks.
Bravo, what a superb video. Great idea, and to be honest the difference between some of the sounds is very small.
I remember when the Matrix1000 was released, it was on my wishlist but even if it was considered as relatively affordable in these time I was too broke to afford it.
Me too. People kept on telling me I should have one but I had to Dave for an S950
@@StarskyCarr In these times you and me (we are approximatively of the same age) had to make choices, a synth or a sampler, not both, and sampling was the great thing. And with this new sampler we dreamt about we would have access to "all the synths sounds, and other, in the WOOOOrld"!
Please my friend yes it is a monster, unfortunately the prices of these units are going up and up. I snatch a Matrix 6r almost like a month ago for around 1300 US dollars. Thank you for this beautiful video, no one was able to make a video comparing the new OB-X8 vs a Matrix 1000 or 6 until now ❤️👍🏻
@gridsleep czcams.com/video/OlH1E2owtWs/video.html
There is a troll selling theirs with ALPs controller on reverb, after telling everyone how good it was, he has yet to make any music with it either lol.
True Vintage Oberheim vs. Recreated Oberheim by DSI
Both sounded nice and desirable. Thanks for the demo!
You do realize that Tom Oberheim is the primary engineer on the new OB-X8, correct? Also, one of the original 1980’s Oberheim engineers Marcus Ryle, was also a large part of the team. The OB-X8 is about as ‘Oberheim’, as it can get.
The Matrix 1000 was manufactured during the time that Gibson owned the Oberheim name. Tom Oberheim had left the company by then.
@@petegreenwood2793 actually it was ECC company that did black Matrix-1000 in 1988 and then after their own bankruptcy, Gibson bought it and then re-released Matrix-1000 with white panel in early 90's
Exactly; everybody is thinking Gibson released the M1000!
It was ECC !!!
Thanks for your insight, guys. I now understand that the Matrix 1000 was released by ECC and it can be controversial whether it's really an Oberheim. I love the sound of the Matrix series, though (including the Matrix 1000). Are a bunch of lawyers able to design such lovely synths? Who actually did the Matrix 1000?
matrix 1000 does have a lot of rubbish factory patches but when you add FX even some of those open up beautifully. matrix is an endless box of secrets.
It's a pretty amazing little synth
The M1000 was ment to be used in 'cascade'. There is a video on YT that shows 6 Matrixes in cascade. Check that sound. It leaves ALL other Oberheims, including M12 behind like pale woodbeez.
great comparison.
Prior to the 3rd party firmwares and the analog revival back when VA and VSTs where it you could pick up a matrix 1000 for 399-499 at a Guitar Center even not quite 20 years ago . Never did though because using a hard to find or expensive sysex editor could lock them up or crash them trying to change envelope parameters etc. in real time
OMG!!! The Matrix 1000 sounds so much phatter and warmer! 😍
No
@@SPAZZOID100 Yes
Are you too old to hear that?
@@henrikgerlach4765 Nope...my ears are fine, i use them for a living. In any case, the Matrix-1000 is DCO based, and has no knobs nor keyboard either.
@@SPAZZOID100 So the fact that it doesn't have knobs and a keyboard effects the sound? Yeah, riiiiiiiiight.... 🤦♂️
And the DCOs on the 1000 don't even sound like DCOs - in fact they sound as warm, full and phatt as VCOs. Everyone who played it can confirm that. Also with the new firmware it's easy to connect a controller. Damn, my head starts hurting from all the face-palming while reading your stupid comments... 🤦♂️
@@SPAZZOID100 Could you please answer? I would like to hear a little more biased bullsh*t 😘
Interesting comparison and great review. I've had my M1000 original black face since 1988 and with the Korg wavestation is the only synth I haven't sold in all that time. I let go of my V1 Waldorf Microwave, Juno 60, MKS 70, and many others. The M1000 certainly sounds as though it comes from the same stable as my OB-8; they just have a musicality that few other synths have. I don't know why but Oberheims just make you "feel" the sounds that come out of them. With everything else you just "hear" the sounds. They inspire music to be written. I'm not surprised their value has sky rocketed; I think folks have now discovered what they have to offer. Another instrument brought to us in part by the genius that is Marcus Ryle and Tom O.
I have two white faced M1000 and its been one of my favorites for the last 20 years. The prices for them has just gone completely bonkers. I think the DSI Tetra will also get you quite close to the M1000
I finally sold my M1000 because I already had a Tetra and found that I tended to use them for similar sounds, and the money I could get for the M1000 was just too attractive. It's a great synth, but at current prices I don't think it's a great deal.
Thanks for this comparison. I have a couple of M1ks and run them detuned in stereo. I suspected that I was at least approximating the experience of the OB-x8, and you've proved that this is correct. Of course the extra voices would be welcome. But the M1k can always be polychained for 12 voices.
I've noticed that the voice stealing setting on the M1k doesn't seem to work on v1.20. I'm not sure if it was always an issue or not as I removed v1.11 pretty much immediately because of the crashing.
Don't worry, mate... that setting never worked...
My tech checked it on all his Matrix versions (6/6r/1000) with all the different firmwares and realized that it was a never fixed bug from the original eprom...
The thing is that I've never find any complaint about that issue... so, now we are at least three users asking for a Tauntek 1.21 upgrade...!!
Cheers
@@kaiwetronic Thanks for confirming that. Amazing that it wasn't noticed after selling thousands of the things. It would be awesome if Mr Grieb could fix that. It's actually pretty noticeable to me. I think he's out of the M1k ROM business though. I'm grateful for the work he did on it.
@@ericamoss1497 A pleasure to find someome as 'nerdy' as me when deep diving into synth programming...
Keymode options are a powerful tool for fixing the behavior of the envelopes on patches that mimic acoustic instruments, giving you the option to avoid the 'nowadays-common' round-robin voice allocation...
Keep enjoying your Matrix...!
It's wild how close they get.
Actually pretty messed up LOL. I think the new one sounds more like $5000 than the old one. More money sounds different.
@@AlexanderZarich the stereo voice allocation makes a huge difference. I had an Oberheim Xpander, which was stereo and it sounded so amazing purely because each voice was either left or right. Sooo 5000 for stereo spread
@@rickimarvel4080 i think the m1000 can be upgraded to have stereo spread but it will be fixed or controlled with trimes
The 6 and 1000 are great! People can't seem to say enough bad things about them, but then I start wondering if they've actually programmed patches for them, or just used the presets. :D The 3396 (and Sequential PA397) is an excellent chip. Sure there are others with different character, but the 3396 is such a cool device. It depends on how you set up these ICs as to how they behave too. They're not a typical DCO, but rather a clocked oscillator (feed it a clock, and it does the rest). So they can actually be free running like a VCO if you set up the clocks that way. (like on the Prophet Rev2) The filter is also a cascaded four pole type similar to CEM, SSM, Roland BA-based, etc.
If 1000 or 6 prices are a bit much, or if you want more features, the Prophet 08, Prophet Rev2, or Tetra could be alternatives with the same ICs.
Nice info thanks.
Their interfaces suck....
@@SPAZZOID100 True, which is why nobody in their right mind would try to use them without a programmer, or editor software. That doesn't make them bad synths. I can think of a few highly rated Roland synths from a similar time period that are quite similar in that regard. Would you want to use most of the MKS line without a programmer (or JX for that matter)?
I really wish somebody would make more 1U rack mount synths like the Matrix 1000!
A rackmount synth that's not programmable without a controller is pretty pointless (from a sales perspective) in 2022 given the wealth of plugins available now, a new Matrix 1000 would flop completely.
I agree. The sound is what counts. Plus no shortage of knobby controllers.
Not certain what firmware requirements are on the M1000, but if you have the 2.13 or higher on the M6 keyboard version, not only can you use the ObiBagix6000 external or the steroping units you mentioned, but it can respond to MPE, at least from a Roli Seaboard in multi channel mode. Set up the initial Roli channel to the same channel as the Matrix, then tell the Roli to control the next 5 channels (6 in all) and each key stroke is independent, both pitch bend and aftertouch. Presto, almost an instant CS-80.
The M1000 was designed from the start to work with guitar midi controllers so it should be similar in function, perhaps even without updating it's firmware.
I got one with new firmware and stereoping controller. It's epic. And with my PCM-81 even more so :) // Sonic Peak Studio
Yeah I recall when Soho Soundhouse/Turnkey were sellling off the Matrix 6R for something like £199 or so... I always quite fancied an Oberheim back then... for sure it can sound quite close to the OBX8 at times... other times not... for sure the OBX8 is better.. but I'm kinda surprised a DCO synth sounded that good. It sure sounds better than the JX8P for instance. I recall a friend of mine had the CHeetah MS6 which I think was very similar to the Matrix 6.
Yeah the Cheetah had the same CEM3396 - I only know as I did a bit of research when making this. Ive never heard the Cheetah.
There's a whole bunch of synths with more or less similar specs, because they largely use the same chips. For example, the Cheetah MS6 is very similar to the Matrix 6R/1000.
My biggest beef with these is that, as a rule of thumb, I wouldn't want to spend more than €/$ 100 per voice, and asking prices for these modules far exceed that.
(No, this does not mean that I paid €12,800 for my Proteus 2000 modules. Those are digital, and different rules apply.)
Had Matrix 1000 as well. It sounded nice, but had too much overlap with Prophet '08 I later got, so had to let go of Matrix 1000.
The irony here is that Tom Oberheim had nothing to do with Matrix 1000* (and only remotely with Matrix 6) but has a lot to do with Prophet '08 / Rev2. Because synth-on-a-chip that is CEM3397 was first used in Marion Pro-Synth, which was Oberheim's own company and synth - and is what Dave Smith used in Prophet '08 / Rev2.
*Tom left now Gibson owned Oberheim when Matrix 6 was getting finalized so that synth is related although not 100% his design. Matrix 1000 was a cheaper version redesigned by Gibson engineers.
Thanks for the info. I thought he’d had an input at some stage but obviously not. Interestingly when tweaking stuff my MIDI monitor always had ‘gibson’ in every sysex message.
M1000 was NOT released by gibson but at this time Oberheim was owned by ECC development.
M6/M1000 was designed by Oberheim with Tom still owning the company
@@philippezsiga1125 Gibson bought Oberheim in 1985. Matrix 1000 was released in 1988, Tom left in 1987. Matrix 6 is related to Oberheim, but Matrix 1000 was a cheaper derivative design without Tom's involvement - hence why so many corners were cut.
It was clearly designed as a preset box not meant to be programmed - something not present in a design of any of Oberheim's synths.
@@philippezsiga1125 ah ha… so I wasn’t incorrect in thinking he had a hand in designing the boards.. 😀
Exactly. And you can hear that: Got the OB-X8 a few weeks ago, but I need to say that the sonic difference to my Rev2 is surprisingly small. To be honest, it is so small that I don't know how to justify the price of the OB-X8. Yes, holding long notes makes some difference (which could probably be eliminated with better software on the Rev), and if anyone still wants sync sounds in 2022, the OB-X8 wins hands down. But in production?
If the OB-X8 had16 voices for the same price, i could accept it, more or less. Like that, it is much too pricey! A desktop version for 2400 USD (8 voices) or 2900 USD (16 voices) would be appropriate IMHO.
interesting comparison, thanks for the featuring :) #matrixctrlr #alpesmachines
I've got an Oberheim Matrix-6 which serves as a MIDI controller for my DSI OB6 Desktop that sits (perfectly) on top of it. When I compare the two, the Matrix 6 doesn't stand a chance, no matter how hard I try to match them. The Curtis filters in it aren't as "creamy" and smooth as the SEM (and the Matrix-6 has the "wider" chips which are supposed to "sound better" for whatever that's worth). It's much closer to my Prophet REV2 in terms of overall "flavor". Perhaps it's understandable since the REV2 uses basically the same Curtis CEM3396 chips as the Matrix-6.
Maybe I'll throw the OB6 up against the M1000 for a quickie
Aphex Twin made Rhubarb track on Matrix-1000
Nice info
Adding soon a Matrix 6 to the arsenal which does include an OB-X8! Up-dated firmware also. I sure hope this is a wise thing for a girl to be doing as I could have gotten one of the 1000’s for a couple hundred dollars less and with less maintenance also
Hi Starsky, how did you do the intro? How do I get that sound? 😀
Starsky as your doing comparisons with the OBX-8. Would it be possible to do a sound comparison of OPX-Pro ii by Sonic Projects against the OBX-8.
I did think about that and pulled up OPX this morning. But at the end it would be .. “this is a great plug-in and gets really close to the sound with lots of the same under the hood tweaks.” Which I think we all know. I was trying to figure out what might be a surprise or an interesting enough observation to spend a day or so making it. In the end I came to the conclusion that we all know it’s a great plug-in and I’m not showing anything we don’t already know.
Thank you for the comparison. I have 2x M2000 white face with an Alpes Machines exclusive White face controller!! So no need for an X8. ;-)
does it update the parameters when you change presets? do you experience parameter jump? thanks :)
I always loved the Matrix 1000 sound, pity I sold my cream face I bought in '97.
Man that cream face make think of the first models of Obeheim.
Not a “forgotten gem” but I otherwise agree that the M1000 is great
10:40 - I think that Matrix's resonance is just "smoothed out" comparedly to OB-X8. OB-X8 sounds "vibrating" on highs. It seems like some kind of a filter FM... Can it be that?
I didn't put any on it, its a really simple tone. Maybe the X8 just vibrates :)
Yesssssssssss matrix 1000 is what started my obsession with analog
Hey quick question what program are you using to control your matrix 1000? I would love to have this option, thanks again for the in depth review!
links are in the description
ctrlr working great for me and its free
Bought a matrix 1000 and purchased the Tauntek chip
Great Comparison! I think the Matrix 6 or 6R have been the obvious gems in front of our eyes for decades - they suffered a life in the shadows because every unit you got under your fingers had just the presets inside, and they where programmed to hold up to the DX-7 in their time! Even the Matrix 1000 are great but the M6 are OB-X8 killers! Not in every respect, but sound wise they are more open and have more depth than the new one. People tend to lean to the specs and the thrill of a new Oberheim Instrument - but who cares if they are DCO's or VCO's when the sound is there?
yeah I have the Matrix 6, the vco's are a bit different. Some say they are individually clocked where the M1000 has a single clock. only the envelopes are slow.
When you said "mono" I thought you meant not polyphonic at first. It took me a second to realise you meant not stereo. That's the first time I've noticed the ambiguity of "mono".
Haha oh yeah!! Me too!’
Maybe it should be spelled “monau” when it refers to monaural sound!
Not a bad synth, if you are ok with one mono-out. The OB-X8 really shines when it comes to full stereo voice-panning capabilities.
Mono out... Another drag
It's funny the amount of classic benchmark instruments which are mono only.. the Minimoog, MS20, 101, 303, Prophet 5 (one of the most revered polyphonic synths in history) Roland Space Echo, the Les Paul, Strat, P Bass etc etc.. I wonder how everyone from Herbie Hancock, Kraftwerk, Jimi Hendrix, Lee Perry and Aphex Twin managed to invent groundbreaking music with these mono instruments?
The stereo 'magic' comes from fx and mixing, each channel on a desk has a pan pot, use it.
A good trick is to record 2 copies of the same thing, pan them hard L and R then use your skills to introduce fx, eq changes etc on the 2 channels. If you stop presuming the machines will do all the leg work and cultivate your own skills then you will find mono a lot easier.
Mono is not to be underestimated, if you want your songs to be played in a club for example, most of the tune will be in mono, especially bass lines and kick drums. A pounding kick which can only he heard by half of the club due to how far away people are from both ends of the stereo field would be a disaster.
@@hb-fc3jj No one is arguing the fact that some musical instruments are meant to be mono-out only. However, one of the most unique and brilliant aspects of early Oberheim signature sound, was the ability to pan all the voices out of different sides of the stereo field (in one pass), allowing for a wide spread of sound through two hard-panned channels on a mixing console, which is part of the reason why iconic music artist like Prince, Styx, Rush, VH, Madonna, Queen, etc, loved the 4-Voice, 8-Voice, OB-X, OB-Xa, OB-SX, and OB-8 polyphonic synthesizers, and part of the reason why Tom Oberheim was such a brilliant pioneer of electronic sound. Stereo out effect processors can only take a mono-out signal, and process it to give all the voices of a mono source, a stereo mix (which is very different).
You can stack multiples matrix 1000 slightly detune them and pan them
interesting I’ve got a marion systems prosynth very similar to the 1000(same dcos) but can’t handle real-time tweaking
I’ll have to check it out.
always interested in these - it was named after his daughter I think - after oberheim went bankrupt. theres a new OS chip you can get for the matrix that makes realtime tweaking better (but still not great) - it may work for the marion?
Kevin, Parker of Tame Impala uses one
Got my M1000 in early 90ties for 2MB Akai S1000 RAM expansion.
I've got an unused 2MB S3000 expansion here if you want another swap!
@@StarskyCarr If you count inflation, then it must be 8MB at least ;-)
I've got a Cheetah MS6 which looks and Sounds pretty much like the same thing as the Matrix1000?
same chips so yes, more or less, the multitimberality can be interesting, the matrix1000 have more modulations options
amazing...should i get a Matrix 1000 or 6R?
I’d go with the 6R for programmability but then there are so many editors now for the 1000 I decided to go for that (no decent 6Rs for sale for ages).
@@StarskyCarr thanks! There are two nice 6R on ebay so its tempting...
I’ve changed my mind… I’d get the 1000!! Just had a play with my 6R and the apps work better with the 1000 - although you defo need them for the 1000 and can work around on the 6.
ok thanks 😆I was thinking that as well because there are so many apps and also there are more patches as well on the 1000 (?) and I just don't see myself fiddling with those touch buttons on the 6R, and it's more convenient to use an app. Plus it's more convenient if one wants to use two or more of them for more polyphony/stereo options. The only benefit of the 6R is the crystal timing thingy (?).
@@helisoma and stereo outputs?
I wonder what the difference is now days between the circuits of a quality VA , FM, Wave Table, & Analog VCO, synthsizer.
Very little. Probably about the same as the difference between different hardware synths. I though about found a VA vs OBX8 to show this, but I can say it in a sentence much easier. They’re all good, slightly different and very subjective.
👍👍👍
Yes the 3rd party firmware is no brainer as it corrects bugs that prevent midi editing of some parameters.
I did if for my Matrix 6 - which is superior to the 1000 as the DCOs are driven by three different clocks, the 1000 has only one. So the 6 sounds 'bigger/fatter' as that minor variation in timing is the secret sauce for DCOs.
I've been on the lookout for a Matrix 6 - I'll keep an even closer eye on eBay now :0 thanks.
@@StarskyCarr reverb has a few. At least the 6R which is what I have had since the early 90’s and I love mine. Had to replace a few of the voices a number of years ago. Also the stereo is very lovely.
Which firmware are you referring to?
@@RussArteaga Tauntek 2.15.
@@RussArteaga The 6R is stereo ?
I thought it was like the six - where the left and right outputs refer to keyboard split upper/lower and a single voice is mono and appears only on the left. The headphone output is the same on both channels.
Best stereo IMO is achieved with a Strymon Big Sky.
On that Tom Sawyer sweep, the OB-X8 sounds almost FM-like. Odd and not great. (I mean, I like FM synthesis a lot, but it doesn’t suit the Tom Sawyer reso sweep.)
Agree
While I still like my Matrix 1000, I think the thing that it does not do well is that fat sound that you could get by putting it into unison mode where all of the oscillators are stacked. On the old Oberheims, that was a monster ours sound. On the Matrix, it is a sort of flangy thing. I had some better success when I did that with patches that only used oscillator one, but …. How does the new Oberheim sound in that mode?
Which OS do you use?
@@Accufacemusic - I have the original OS. In any vids that I have seen of folks demonstrating an updated OS, they have always shown how the unit responds better to real time manipulation. I have never heard any claim or any demonstration of improved sound.
I have spent hundreds of hours programming the Matrix 6 and the Matrix 1000 and I usually rely on midi CCs for performance responses to filter, envelope, etc. The sluggish sys ex programming stuff does not concern me so much. I don't expect real time knob twiddling from the 1000 unless I am using midi CCs.
Unison mode just doesn't sound as good on the Matrix as it does on the legacy poly beasties ...unless everyone who has demoed OS updates has somehow neglected to show that. That would be an awesome update.
The 1.16 and I think the 1.2 firmware as well have an additional unison detune parameter accessible via MIDI. If you look at the software I’m using there is a slider next to the key modes. So it’s not changing the sound engine but does address that flangy sound.
@@StarskyCarr - Cool. Thanks for the tip!
@@piktormusic2538 Just get the update, play with the detune and you'll get the phattest unison sounds. 😉
All of my mates passwords are Matrix1000 - absolutely true!
ooops
What’s his email address? 😂
I’m so sorry but I could not catch the name of that editor you liked using. Can you write it out?
What makes it so hard for some to just read the f*cking description?
Asking for a friend...
@@henrikgerlach4765 why so hostile?
@@pseudomass why so ignorant and lazy? 😘
@@pseudomass stupid people everywhere
Immediacy of the X8 wins hands down imo. I get the 1000 is good but having ot tether a controller or software to get into the nitty gritty is not my idea of fun.
Thx for the upload.
Using the editors is a pain, especially with the laggy processor. But if space is an issue.. a rack or desktop x8 would be great.
@@StarskyCarr Yeah I hear you, it's good you got to experience an X8, you going to keep it?
"More lively" due to DCOs in the Matrix... might be a misconception. These are almost analog. They can even drift after just a bit of time. Need to tune them then or even calibrate. If you don't do that thing is lively as hell.
Those are not "almost analog" - they are 100% analog...
@@henrikgerlach4765 I mean the aspect of digital controll even is pretty low compared to Juno or JX.
800-900 pounds seems a bit low? The regular asking price for the Matrix-1000 seems to be around double that these days.
Got it a few weeks ago for £800 on eBay which wasn't the cheapest, but I wanted a beige on! They were around £300-£400 a couple of years ago - wish Id got it then. I've not seen one go for over £900
@@StarskyCarr i got one for a friend for about 600$ about three years ago, mine for about 400 6-7 years ago
1000 for me
They sound so close-just get this.... i sold my M6 as i have an M12 although i loved it. . Just bought an OBX8 and probably going to send it back as it's just not worth 5k.. It sounds great but has almost no programming capability. The arpeggiator is really basic and clunky to use. i actually sold my OB6 to help fund it but will probably buy it back. You need the software editor for the M6 as there are no editing knobs. Also its worth upgrading the controller chip as the original doesn't have the power to run filter sweeps smoothly- easy mod to do....
Feel free to contact me for more questions... My opinion is the OB6 second hand or desktop is a killer purchase. or M6 rack / keyboard with software editor.
Nice I have a Matrix 6r and it’s a keeper, probably I’m going to consider in the future a OB6 desktop 👍🏻
Stereoping makes a nice controller if you dont want to use software
@@PORRFNK Yes Stereoping are great and there are a few others out there... You need the gligli mod to open up the sound- as the processors are shite and you cant sweep the filter smoothly- even with the mod it struggles but is much better. It doesnt mater whether its an m6/ M6R or 1000 - all of them are exactly the same under the hood and your going to use a software editor or hardware controller anyway...
@@TheJonathanlewis1000 The M6 is kind of different as the M6 doesnt have a common clock for all voices, that makes it sound more like the OB-X8 when notes are overlapping. I use the untergeek firmware (1.20) which I found even better
@@TheJonathanlewis1000 I've got the controller and firmware. I think the fw was about 25 euro....
The takeaway from all yours videos, is pretty much all synths sound the same 😆
more or less :) but a 303 will never be a module-d, it's the features that makes a synth unique
Get yourself a Marion Systems MSR 2.
very hard to find and not much of controllers options
This is not just a comment on this video, but on all synth videos on CZcams. It seems there’s always this focus on some attempt to make two synths sound the same, as if that’s the point of a comparison. But there are plenty of sounds that virtually any synth can make. The question is not whether you can find a few sounds that are similar. The question is, how are they different? That’s what’s useful to people. Not, “oh look, a basic saw pad basically sounds the same on everything”. Duh. Of course it does. That tells us nothing. What can each do that the other can’t? What are the sounds where they don’t match? That’s what comparisons need to show.
I get where you're coming from and there's a very good reason for that... its because anyone can show a synth doing stuff that others can't - but its an incredibly boring and almost pointless demonstration.
I have attempted on a couple of occasions but given up as you end up constantly saying "this can do this... and this one can't.. 'but this can do this...and obviously this one can't". Instead, I try to demo the character of each synth rather than "this one has FM so can do this... but this one can't because it doesn't have FM , however, this one has a 3rd LFO so you can modulate another parameter at a different rate like this, which the other can't because you have only 2 LFOs .... ". Its almost endless and ultimately feels pointless. The specs can tell you all that - but what they can't tell you is how they compare from a textural or quality standpoint which is what I try to get across.
And when synths sound different on a similar patch - it's usually just a case of tweaking settings to draw them together. But it doesn't show people much of use by taking a tone and changing it to match another - I'm just again demonstrating how they can sound the same, and how a particular patch has been programmed. What you're talking about there is synth programming techniques and how to manipulate tones. I've got a whole series of that on my Patreon and another Udemy course - they're extensive and very focussed - but not for CZcams. Over 20 hours in total I think.
There are loads of demos playing the presets which is almost the equivalent to what you're asking for, as the presets tend to demo all the functions. Playing a bunch of presets on both and describing why they're different also comes across as ultimately ridiculous - I can hear the comments screaming "of course they're different- they're different synths" "That tones got an Arp underneath, and the others using an LFO... "that ones got a BP filter and the others using a LP"... "well of course they're different - it can't do PWM". ... again all of this is about synth programming techniques not the sound of an individual synth; its about the specs not the sonic qualities.
As I said I've experimented with something along those lines but it doesn't work. Maybe someone could find an interesting way of doing it but I've not discovered it yet. I do, however, think that building something from basic tones to try to develop a sound, does demonstrate their overall character and why they may not be the same.
Having said that, when there's lots of bluster about particular synths AMAZING tone and "only this synth can really create THIS particular sound" - it's a public service to show that others can be just as good (not necessarily identical) at doing similar at a fraction of the cost.
@@StarskyCarr Obviously, I see it differently. Maybe I know too much about synth programming to find it useful. Features are as important as tone. Or, features produce tone. Having owned an OB-6 for several years, and now an OB-X8, I can tell you they are dramatically different, even though they can sound almost identical on certain sounds. And it is largely to do with features. In particular, envelope shapes, LFO behavior, Split/Double and filter options. The OB-6 has the oscillators and filter of the SEM, but everything else is Prophet-6. The OB-X8 is all OB, and it really is different. But since they can be dialed in to be almost identical on some sounds, all of that is missed in that kind of comparison. A more extreme example would be saying a Minimoog and Moog Modular are the same, because they can be made to sound the same. That is, of course, ridiculous.
@@vaportrails7943 I know what you’re saying, but a video showing different things is just that. I think everyone knows those 2 are dramatically different… they have different features and as you say if you know enough about synths you know what the capabilities are given the specs. So it’s more useful to most to hear how they differ doing similar things. Again, I have looked at this but it just becomes a mush of differences. Trying to show why a certain patch can’t be made on a synth that doesn’t have the features to make that patch is fruitless. It’s literally … here’s a tone… I can do this on synth one but get close on synth 2 doing this but can’t do it simply because it can’t…. Next tone repeat … next tone repeat ad infinitum. Everyone knows they do different things - that’s a given. Showing it doesn’t add anything … just confirms they’re different. These videos are showing how close they can be given their differences.
Try it yourself and see if you can make it interesting. All you’ll be doing is explaining what split:double is, What filter options do, what envelope shapes can do…. What a looping env does, the effect different envelopes shapes make to a tone… And oh look you’re demoing all the functions of a synth and how to use them… hence my point to learn that and understand the parameters and functions people can watch synth programming tutorials. These are comparisons not synth programming tutorials.
As I said if anyone needs to learn all that to understand the differences in functionality I’ve got them covered. I can’t do it in every video - nobody can. It’s a waste of time.
@@StarskyCarr Well, in the most general sense, what I’m saying is that “How they’re different” is a lot more useful than “can they be made to sound the same in this one specific situation?”
@@vaportrails7943 And again, I see what you're saying - it's just a really difficult thing to do while keeping a coherent narrative rather than demoing a bunch of different synth functions. Honestly, it sounds like an easy job.. but isn't.
From what I can gather it's obvious you understand the differences FM can make to a tone, and what an additional LFO can do. So I'm not entirely sure who your intended audience is... if people don't understand synthesis they need to learn a bit more (not the job of a comparison), and if you do know then ... you know. There has to be some level of understanding or at least some base knowledge to make the most of these. I suspect anyone wondering the difference between a £2.5k synth and a £4.7k synth they're considering will be aware of these differences.
I really think you're missing the point in that it's not about “can they be made to sound the same in this one specific situation?”, but "what's the sonic character and how do they differ". The only way to show that is to find similar tones and show why or how they're not quite the same (or are the same). A good example is I have a Moog One and Minimoog in front of me. I can spend hours and hours showing the different things the Moog One can do. You can read all that in the specs without hearing the synth. If you know what the specs are you understand what that means in terms of sound design and functions .. but can it sound like a Minimoog?.. what's the difference in tone? Only a sound demo can show this. Pull up a simple sawtooth and bang... there's the difference.
"How are they different" is in the specs. If the specs are the same (eg Behringer clones),.. then you need to show the same patches side by side to demo the character again.
But then... maybe I'm too literal! Maybe a demo of presets would be of more interest to folks. Play through the first 8 on each and explain why the other couldn't do it? It would certainly be easier. I might give it a go! Could be a winner :). And I'm really considering it btw.. it could be a new take on things. worth go perhaps! As I said I've tried before, but worth another stab at it,... Have I changed my mind mid sentence... perhaps hahah.
Here you go, RUSH, Tom Sawyer: m.czcams.com/video/auLBLk4ibAk/video.html. ☺️🤘
:-( :-( Edisyn not shown among the software editors. Edisyn's claim to fame -- its many patch exploration tools -- were invented for the Matrix 1000.
Great, now the M-1000 prices will get even more bloated.
Quick get a couple.. for stereo matrix action
@@StarskyCarr They are not worth the current price IMO. Pretty much it's a preset box, unless you use a software controller, which is definitely not something I want in (an over $1k) hardware.
@@robertszordykowski4919 you have many dedicated hardware controllers, from Access to Alpes Machines…
@@robertszordykowski4919 maybe not in these days but interestingly they’re cheaper now than when new. £449 new I’m U.K. on release which is over £1,300 now. So maybe the only Oberheim that’s not increased in value?
@@robertszordykowski4919 LOL
I'm sorry but you don't have clue... with the new Tauntek OS update with thing opened completely up. Just get a controller and you will be surprised... It's an absolute monster of an analog synth.
la pasta sonora è quella... ma tra OBX-8 e Matrix 1000 ce ne passa di acqua sotto i ponti.... D'altra parte OBX-8 costa come un rene...
Yes it is a Godzilla, and the Matrix 6 is a Megagodzilla 😉
The Tom Sawyer sound is off in both synths. I suggest you finally give the song a go before trying to psych the sound. Lol.
Try to patch the sound.
Haha yeah I just copied it from my OB6
Noooo! I hoped they would become cheap, now that people can buy OB-X8. Now prices will go up. :(
The most shocking part of this video: You’ve never listened to ‘Tom Sawyer.’ Wait, are you completely sure you’re a synth freak over 30 years old?
haha...
i just listened to it for the first time too, i'm over 40 and synths are my life
I was lucky to snag a M1000 about 8 years ago for a hundred bucks Canadian! I’ve barely used it, but I do love it.
Hey Starsky - go listen to Tom Sawyer. It’s a great track - dark, funky rock with great synth work and cool time signature changes.
This is the first time I actually like the sound of the newer one better. BUT for 1K+€ the Matrix 1000 is a bargain compared to the price tag of the OB-X8.
Have the Matrix 6 now. Back in the day I worked on a Matrix 6R and M1000. The M6r sounded better TBH, but both were excellent. Still very underrated IMHO.
The Matrix is close, but it's not on par. It's kind of missing the things that give the character to the sound. I mean the sound is there, but it plays different. It kind of sounds like someone made a high quality sampled VST clone of the OB. I'm sure with some tweaks, you could make it sound the same, or very close, but it would be nice to have the actual synth. I would be happy with the Matrix though. It's still a nice sounding synth. I just hope to be able to afford an OB one day.
Blah, blah, blah... *yawn*
Jeez at least go 2.1 firmware.
I would if it existed!! I’ve got 1.2 in this which is max for the M1000 as far as I’m aware at least. M6 goes to 2.15
@@StarskyCarr oh I’m confused! You are so right! I only run 1.16 because my understanding was that 1.2 is only necessary for iPad editing. I use a hardware stereoping editor and 1.16 works fine. (I was stupid and turned 1.2 into 2.1 in my head)
@@cdwhiley Haha I only realised there were different versions for the M6 and M1000 last week (someone mentioned in the comments or Facebook). There's a videos with someone showing the difference in response with 1.11, 1.16 and the steeping - which promoted me to get 1.2- such an AMAZING difference.
@@StarskyCarr Interesting. I would assume the sysex strings my hardware editor puts out would be the same as what your software editor is outputting....because I don't have stepping problems with my editor and 1.16. The maker Gregor Zoll of Stereoping explained to me he saw no difference when it came to his device and the m-1000. I see a lot of people go for the 1.2 thinking its "later version must be better" but the way its been explained to me it's not necessarily better, just different. So I think it kinda demends on your application maybe. I dunno...but yea, great content man. It helps me feel like I'm still "somebody" with my lowly 1000. Truth is I want 2 or 3 or 4 of them to poly chain. :) :) :)
@@cdwhiley Yeah I think 1.2 and 1.16 are similar from the perspective. I got 1.2 as I read through the Tauntek info and had watched a demo. Looking for hardware control now!