Behringer 2600 Gray Meanie vs Black & Orange "Xmas Tree", disassembly and differences on the boards
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- čas přidán 20. 03. 2021
- I've opened up my Behringer 2600 Gray Meanie and Black & Orange "Xmas Tree". Quick recap of the theoretical differences: The B&O has digital reverb, the GM has a spring reverb tank, and there were some rumors that the GM has "selected components" that made it a bit better in whatever respect.
Here are my findings:
- On the GM, the spring reverb tank is mounted to the back of the main board.
- On the B&O, there is a DSP that is responsible for the digital reverb. This DSP is not populated on the GM.
- Indeed, 6 of the capacitors in the filter have been changed from SMD to through-hole variants - so there is truth to the "selected components" story. - Hudba
In the development of the B2600 the idea for the Blue version came up. The one upgrade AMSynths suggested in the electronic design was better caps in the filters as the rest of the circuits worked really well, I had already corrected the original ARP errors. Initially this was about using SMD PPS caps, as used in the Poly D, but this is a different PCB footprint size so you cant have both, and we all wanted one PCB to keep costs down! So the idea was implemented as SMD caps but with a parallel THD for the Blue and Gray. This means nice polyester caps can be used, with an improvement in sound. Behringer have a great supply chain and the components are excellent. However I suggest replacing with 1% polyproylene Wima caps as it will open up the sound further and improve the resonance edge. Happy to answer any questions about this collobartion between Behringer and AMSynths. ☺️
your input to the project is greatly appreciated Rob, i have the meanie and i love it. Thankyou for your efforts
@AMSynths Thanks for your input here, much appreciated. In your opinion is there anything on the Black and Orange 2600 that would benefit from changing at all in the after market?
@@scottmacey The end to end design is very good, including the power supply, with no vco crosstalk lockups. The only mod I would consider is octave switches on the vcos, and I suggest not to mess around with the led colours as each colour has its own resistance value. Enjoy!
Can you be more specific about what you refer to as "original ARP errors"?
@@brentsmith9411 The VCA needs audio decoupling to remove CV thump, and the attack of the AR has been shortened. The 4072 has the correct higher frequency range. There are also a few mistakes in the original schematics especially the ADSR. A better power supply also helps keep the VCOs stable. Hope that helps!
The lettering on the capacitors represent the value, tolerance and voltage rating. The first three numbers are the capacitance value (472 would be .0047uF), the letter (J in this case) is the tolerance of 5% and the last digits is the voltage rating (63V).
Rob who designed them said a couple of month ago that Behringer had a load of spare capacitors left over from the Poly D which are the capacitors you are now looking at in the Grey Meanie...also found in the Blue Marvin.
The yellow caps are film capacitors (probably polypropylene) while the round caps are chemical/electrolytic capacitors. Film caps are strictly superior to electrolytics in pretty much every way. The main advantage of film caps is that they don't degrade with time, contrarily to chemicals. Also, they have better tolerance, and some say they sound better, but only measurements would show that. At least the sound is stable in time and more consistent accross units, and they don't need replacing after 20 years. Depending of the type and brand, film caps are usually more expensive than electrolytics.
Thankyou for a proper comparison of hardware
This is a slick presentation. Thanks for the information.
Thankyou for taking them apart! Just ordered a grey, nice to know there is a little benefit, and from amsynths' comments below, easier to improve the filter caps further with the through hole design (without having to remove SMD's on the Orange & Black) - anyway thanks for the video :)
Oh, so I went looking for inside pics of the Korg, and while the build a lot higher quality looking generally, and no doubt is... I did see SMD electrolytic caps in the Korg. Which I really don't like, after changing them in so many musical instruments and old computers when they leak badly. Through hole caps like in the Behringer will be easier to service, if the rest of the machine lasts...
I know this vid has been out for a while, but for any who may be curious, I believe that the moog style filter is the one on top of the filter section, whilst the arp 4075 is the one on the lower right. Easier to see when it gets to the grey meanie board, four yellow caps in a row=moog filter. For the record they are quite similar to my ear as well
Thanks for sharing these insights.
What’s most interesting: Behringer uses the same PCB for both versions and the black/orange standard model already has the markings and holes to mount the spring reverb tank.
So, Behringer planned this from the very beginning.
Now, with this having in mind consider to revisit all of Behringer’s notes and press releases on the 2600 in the past. And judge for yourself what is information and what is strategy
Marketing and sales is always strategy. The markings for the spring tank were visible in the first shots of the PCBs early last year.
As to why they did not outfit already their first 2600 with a reverb tank, I can only speculate; perhaps it took some time to set up the fabrication process. From a manufacturing standpoint, the B2600 is really a very simple thing; two PCBs, the main one almost certainly completely automatically populated, some bent and cut metal, done. The price for something with such a big PCB would not be feasible otherwise. The spring reverb and filter cap assembly require some manual work; to add this at this low price requires some planning, I guess, and they would not have made it to market this early had they included this. Only my guesswork of course.
They could also have designed it for a spring tank and then went digital to adjust and meet the price point. Then when they saw the popularity did a cost benefit analysis and said we can make two versions since we already have the pcb. Nothing nefarious. Just prudent business.
@@Leviathan-mj8gi The awesome thing is, nobody has to buy any of it. For example, if this bothers you, you can wait until the better version comes out and buy that. Or buy nothing because you don;t like them.
Superb observation. I didn't see this until you said
Thanks for doing this video
Looks like you can easily put the spring-reverb outside of the synth to have more fun, nice.
Bold move opening them up. So what's the verdict? I was going to put a pre-order in for a blue marvin but now i'm really unsure considering the noise and nothing truly remarkable on the component differences. I see you saying that the noise isn't that problematic. So anyway, if you hadn't bought the xmas tree first, only bought one, which one? Is the additional cost and noise worth it over the xmas tree?
Thanks for that.
Thank you 🙏🏻
Would the Blue Meanie follow suit with the Grey or B&O? I knows ping on both Blue and Grey, but caps?
I've heard that the blue and gray versions are the same in all but appearance.
Скажите пожалуйста, в чём разница по звуку, между оригиналом, Blue и серым. С ревербератором более менее понятно. Некоторые говорят, что фильтр а новых двух версиях 2600 стал более качественно звучащим. П что вы думаете по поводу различий, ведь мне лично оригинал нравится больше? Благодарю вас
I beg your pardon?
@@therealbjoerngiesler According to Google Translate, he said, "Please tell me what is the difference in sound between the original, Blue and gray. With a reverb, it's more or less clear. Some say that the filter in the new two versions of the 2600 has become better sounding. What do you think about the differences, because I personally like the original more? Thank you"
in 30 years the orange and black gonna be the most wanted ;)
In 30 years they'll all be in landfill
@@henryhill92 this happenng always . there was a time with other landfill too . i bought my Micromoog for peanuts ;)
The polyprop capacitors (the yellow ones) are strictly superior to electrolytics in pretty much every way, but their main advantage is that they don't degrade over time, so I'd say in 40 years the Blue Marvin and Grey Minie are more likely to keep their sound intact and slightly less likely to fail than the original version. Only less slightly because only a few caps (10% ?) have been replaced.
sound?
You CANNOT void the warranty by opening the case. Not even looking intensely or probing the board can be cause to void the warranty. Corporations have been putting stickers and things that deceive you into believing they have a power they do not have. The law is on your side.
That depends entirely what country you're in
@@Barefoot_Joe sure every country is different but if you live in Europe, Canada, or the US you’re for sure not allowed to void warranties for opening the device. Thru treaty that consideration spreads through out the world.
@@arsenicjones9125 Well perhaps the law is on our side, but who is going to court for that ? You will end up paying more than buying a new unit. That's what manufacturers count on.
@@lolilollolilol7773 the FTC is soliciting reports of companies doing this to prosecute. You’re welcome.
@@arsenicjones9125 ok, but if the Republicans get power again, you can be sure this will all go to the trashcan, as they always side with who pay them aka big business.
Thanks again Björn, for all your efforts! Did you take a look at the spring unit, while your Grey meanie was opened? I'm curious to know the brand and the number of springs it has :)
auxpin has pulled some screenshots out of my video here: Re: Behringer 2600
The spring tank is not labelled. It has two main springs. Michiel Doe on Facebook found this one that looks identical in terms of springs but has a slightly different housing: www.ebay.com/itm/Spring-Reverb-Tank-Electric-Guitar-Amplifier-2-Spring-TPSB2EB2C1B-Medium-Decay/141599802959
@@therealbjoerngiesler Ok, it looks the same. As someone has said allready, by placing a delay om one of the reverb outputs, the phase problem can be fixed🙂
@@cjk-28-JockeK I haven't noticed a phase problem on my unit, do you have a link that describes this in more detail?
@@therealbjoerngiesler Hi Björn, the stereo effect is made with phase reverse between the channels. Arp 2600 is made the same way. Listen at around the 2min point in this video, what happens in mono mix: czcams.com/video/6C9OTXCEpzg/video.html&ab_channel=Rustboy
@@cjk-28-JockeK Thanks! Yes, I hear it.
Well I'll be damned. I'm glad to be proven wrong about the components. We now know, once and for all. Thanks!
4:44 "Part number..."😂😂😂
What is the manufacturer of the reverb tank? Perhaps it's possible to swap it out for a better sounding one.
WTF??? Why? The spring sounds awesome! What's your problem?
@@henrikgerlach4765 If you think this sounds good, you should hear what a good spring pan sounds like. Current production cheap Chinese spring pans don't compare to the old MIA pans. If you hear them side by side the different is day and night. They accentuate transients and sound much smoother with less mud.
@@henrikgerlach4765 That's like, your opinion, man xD
Will the Gray Meanie ever come to the USA? I'm waiting, waiting, waiting.
Mine is in Ohio arriving in 2 days to seattle
@@e.m.b2834 May I ask where you ordered it from?
@@SRV2013 Have you tried Sweetwater in Indiana? I got my xmas tree from them but they had the Marvin and the Meanie in stock, as well, for an extra $100. I have a "thing" about ordering from that company (it has to do with politics) but they provided me with good service on the BARP.
@@jawoody9745 Do they? Thanks I'll have to check them out.
@@jawoody9745 I have a good relationship with my SW salesperson for many years, but if he were gone I'd be gone. SW 70% of their sales are to the Joel Olsteen-type Midwestern megachurches. Scary stuff.
Did people really think they lied?
I have to admit that I did. They lied about TD3 arpeggiator. And they lied about giving synths to poor kids too.
6:18 I would not call that a reverb "tank" It's more of a reverb "(jerry)can"
Hi Björn, many thanks for your work and compare of the different devices. I am an owner of the black-orange Version and I‘m a little annoyed. Because two weeks after arriving of my unit Behringer presents the two new versions. You tried and compared all three. Which one would you recommend? The noise at the master output of your Blue Marvin shocked me a bit. And I was relieved that my device didn‘t have that. But I‘m thinking about it, to buy the Gray Meanie. Have this device also such a noise on the master output? Let‘s see what my black and orange device will bring on the used market! Nobody wants that anymore. Bad politics from Behringer.
The noise is not really too bad, I think. But if you already have an Xmas tree, I personally would keep it. I kept mine, I knew I would from the beginning. It's a mighty fine synthesizer, and I actually like the sound of the digital reverb. If you are handy with a soldering iron, a gentleman named Maffez on the Gearspace forums has figured out that the reverb ship on the black & orange is actually a standard effects chip that can do many other things, and is working on modification to unlock those. I think that is a fantastic asset.
@@therealbjoerngiesler Too bad Behringer doesn't build it unlocked.
My filter selector on my orange does NOTHING!
Needs to be patched in to take effect
1:00 I am willing tto bet that two bl/or 2600's also have just a little difference in output (filter-wise or whatever) given it's analog nature....I have 3 (!) K2's and with them units it is exactly like that...Exact copies of settings give tiny little differences in sound...By ear AND by measurement....NO cap is exactly the same, NO diode is exactly the same , NO......need I go on?!
The GM's spring reverb channels are 180° out of phase, the reverb disappears in mono - terrible design move.
I believe that's the way it's done on the original, no? This way you get a semblance of stereo from a monaural synth, not sure there's any other practicable way. If you want it to have reverb and only hook it up monaural, you can always just use only one of the outputs, no?
@@therealbjoerngiesler _"I believe that's the way it's done on the original, no?"_
Yes, that's right, and it's a terrible oversight for Behringer to pass this design flaw on to their clone.
_"This way you get a semblance of stereo from a monaural synth, not sure there's any other practicable way"_
Lol, there is no other way to generate a stereo reverb other than phase inversion !? Are you being serious here, or just joking (hard to tell) : )
_"If you want it to have reverb and only hook it up monaural, you can always just use only one of the outputs, no?"_
Then you only have a mono reverb, a better solution would be to simply use an external reverb unit, there are no end of stereo reverb units that don't have these phase issues (basically _every_ stereo reverb unit ever made), it's a shame they screwed this up as the actual reverb sound is really nice.
@@davelordy Yes, I am actually quite serious. Whether or not a clone should replicate the original's behavior or fix perceived "flaws" is an issue that has been discussed to death. I don't have much of an opinion here. But especially in the case of the Meanie/Marvin, we are talking about hardware spring reverbs, and my comment about practicability was linked to this fact. I'm not an expert on spring reverbs but I would assume that to get a true stereo spring reverb, you would have to have two spring tanks plus the amplifier circuitry to drive it, or possibly a stereo spring tank; quick Google search turns up none. All the tanks seem to be mono. Adding a stereo hardware spring reverb would have made the thing considerably more expensive.
(Note to self: Check tonight whether the digital spring emulation on the Black&Orange is out of phase as well, which would be kind of lame, or a true stereo simulation.)
But tbh I still don't understand your use case. You want to mix down a stereo signal to mono, which makes the reverb disappear due to the phase shift, but you don't want to just do a mono recording in the first place? Not quite sure where you want to go with this, maybe you can enlighten me.
@@therealbjoerngiesler _"Yes, I am actually quite serious"_
Ok ! Well the answer is yes, there are numerous ways of getting a stereo reverb from a mono source, pretty much every reverb unit in existence does this, it's how reverb works in nature, so yes there are endless ways to create stereo reverb besides phase inversion, when you drop a rock in a massive cave nature doesn't invert the phase of one of your ears to give you sense of stereo : ) . . . this hasn't been an issue for anyone else, it's bizarre that they've stuck with this design flaw, it has real implications for recording.
_"You want to mix down a stereo signal to mono, which makes the reverb disappear due to the phase shift, but you don't want to just do a mono recording in the first place?"_
It's not that anyone wants to mix down to mono, it's simply that this is what happens to music in general, outside of the home (and earphones) the vast majority of music ends up being played monaurally (or close to mono), clubs _need_ to play in mono, retail/shops/gyms (etc) play largely in mono (usually from single driver ceiling mounted speakers), restaurants, most portable radios, even a wrongly rendered CZcams video, a lot of smaller TVs, cellphone speakers . . . etc etc. The problem is translation, you can record an epic soundscape washed in beautiful reverb only to have the reverb completely disappear changing the balance/mix/sound of your track.
Anyhow, I think I've said enough . . . I think the best/easiest solution is just buy an external reverb unit (if you've not already got one).
@@davelordy OK, usecase understood and I see how this can be a problem. I don't agree with your statement that "pretty much every reverb unit in existence does this" for the specific case of hardware spring reverbs (and this was certainly a hard requirement for this thing). Googling for spring reverbs, I find that they are almost all mono, the Vermona DSR3 being one of the few exceptions.
So yes, the solution is to get an external reverb, they're a dime a dozen.
People are experts to hear a difference of 1 %... but at the end they all produce the same shitty preset arpeggio with ugly high resonance sweep acid...
Wow. Thinking positive much?
@@therealbjoerngiesler i think he is speaking a truth.
loooool
Seems silly to solder that ribbon to the board.
The MacBeth M5 soldered all 4 PCB boards together, which means you have to remove all the knobs, slider caps, and socket nuts to get to the boards. I de-soldered 2 of the ribbon cables and replaced them with ribbon connectors to make it easy to remove and work on 2 of the boards.
@@wedream2 That's insane, especially for a boutique handbuilt synth like that.
@@northerntao I agree. It's cutting cost at the expense of convenience.
Ribbon sockets can sometimes cause connection problem, if the gear is on the move a lot. Ensoniq EPS/EPS16+ in keyboard versions has ribbon connection between some boards. These were soldered by repairing technicians, to reduce system stability issues. But it's also a common practice, to glue sockets at the factory, to prevent problems.
@@cjk-28-JockeK True dat. When I ordered my Lyra8 from Russia, it didn't work out of the box. They had me open it up and sure enough, one of several ribbon cables had come loose, which fixed the problem. I think Behringer had a lot of problems with the DeepMind 12 and a ribbon cable, which generated umpteen support requests and returns. They may have wanted to minimize that in the future. It would be simple enough to solder a connector to the board and replace the cable if it really became an issue.
just mod the black orange urself then u loose nothing...difference is surely not worth 100lb haha. any & i mean anyone that DIY eurorack modules can finish the job in 20 min.
If you can hear capacitor differences, then the design of the circuit is bad. LOL.
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