AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - Episode #5
Vložit
- čas přidán 24. 02. 2018
- Aikido the way that doesn't work episode #5 featured technique is katate dori kaiten nage. In today's episode Lenny Sly sensei of the #roguewarriors training compound demonstrates and explains the how and why aikido's traditional katate dori kaiten nage waza doesn't work. Sly sensei covers from A to Z the many openings and flaws that this traditional waza has and how it can be countered very easily. Sensei also show's how you can as nage counter uke's counter as well and much more.
#roguewarriors - Jak na to + styl
I don't care what anyone else may say about your videos. In my opinion you are definitely the BEST instructor in Aikido. Every video is awesome. Everything is well thought out and explained. Thank you for posting! God Bless you!
I really enjoy your "NO BULLSHIT" approach to the techniques you present. keep up the good work!
Thank you for taking the time doing this,I myself am grateful that you do.
There's also the possibility Bob just punches you square in the twig-and-barries instead of taking out the knee or going between the legs for the throw too.
Hello from Australia, great delivery and ideals presented. Always incredibly grateful you're taking the time to test these techniques. Keep it up!
I Very much appreciate these videos In fact I love them And I very much appreciate you taking the time out of your day just to do these for us So I would like to say thank you
Yamada sensei is in town next week for a seminar at our dojo and I refuse to go I’ve learned more real life application of techniques here than anywhere else keep up what you are doing Lenny great video!!
Wow really, thank you. Where is in town for you?
Cincinati
Ohio nice. I'll be teaching a seminar in Pennsylvania in April.
Well done Lenny, very enlightening! I learnt a lot
At last someone else saying it as it is, I taught traditional karate for years but now I teach freestyle karate , I can prove that most traditional ways DO NOT/WILL NOT work in real situations so I've put my own spin on things and teach now what I believe will work, keep up the excellent work 👍
This video was very informative
Lenny, LEGEND, excellent work. I love how u explain stuff with the technuiqes in the videos, keep it up...
hi Lenny, your awesome..I appreciate you and your work.thank you!
Awesome stuff Lenny. Keep up the good work
Well Pastor Sly, another outstanding sermon! I've been with you since close to your beginning, and have never regretted it once! My students and I will be forever in your favor. May have to set up something here in Denver in the future....ttyl
Thank You for the excellent videos!
Thanks for your videos and hard work and Bringing aikido to the next level
great job lenny sly i am grateful of your aikido
So you know: you are also known in the Netherlands! Your videos contain a lot of valuable info even for non Aikido practioners (I happen to practice classical Jujutsu). Keep up the good work.
No kidding really, that's awesome
Great video 🙏🏻
I have a stopping technique... @ 14:49 can Bob just pull? As you are going under his arm, your arm is across your face. I envision Bob just being able to pull and you close-line your own face. Love the video as always!!!!
I practice traditional aikido. Thank you for your work my friend.
This is why I love your concepts Sensei Sly, because for me I’m only 5’7” a buck 55, with small hands, I want to be able to get in and out, and do as much damage as I can! And may only need the techniques that you guys are showing to add to mine. Thank you Sir!
Whether 'traditional' Aikido CAN work or not will remain debated, BUT, assuming it WILL always work, is where the danger seems to exist.
Modern Aikido is a much different beast and can sometimes be seen as ineffective - as is postulated by Sly sensei.
I have however seen dojo where the effectiveness is certainly still intact - BUT other dojo, where I simply shake my head.
I'm not faultless in this regard either, sadly, but I have tweaked or modified many/most techniques to become better equipped against active resistance.
Regardless what art to choose to practice the first and foremost problem you'll face is your own unwillingness to actually hurt someone.
I've had several friends tell me "it's like someone flipped a switch and you just started f*cking people up."
Unfortunately, my life has been rather violent. I didn't plan it that way nor did I choose to live that way. It just was.
So.... from personal experience, you MUST overcome you're natural reluctance to hurt someone if you want to successfully defend yourself, because they have already decided they are willing to hurt you, your wife, sister or whoever to achieve their goals.
Traditional Aikido, by the nature of the way it is taught, puts you at the disadvantage because O Sensei was about "peaceful" resolution of conflict, at least that's the traditional approach to teaching his principles. This means you're taught not to hurt people in the application of traditional Aikido technique.
At least that's been my takeaway from the art and O Sensei's teachings.
I can’t remember the name of the technique, but in the very first class I went to there was a basic technique that starts out the same way this more advanced one does. Would the very, very, basic application of this work? The one where you just like run there arm across your face and have them locked up ready to fall down.... I know when I was trying Aikido out there was some stuff that made me say.... “yeah right! I’d just let go”, but then the black belts would demonstrate on me and I couldn’t let go because I was already falling. It was a very unnerving experience. In my head I was saying let go, but I couldn’t because if I did I would fall... I know it’s dumb, fall or get thrown your choice right? Seems like some of these things when done at speed, you might want to counter but everything is happening so fast that you can’t. I don’t know. Good video, makes me also wonder why more martial arts aren’t doing the same thing with their own arts.
GREAT COMMENT THANK YOU FOR POSTING!
Bravo Sensei!
Man big respect I love what your doing the time the effort dude God bless I just love it bro ,
Thanks man I really appreciate it
Thanks to show all the counter atacks sir
love what your doing man this same type of thing was done with the ground attack of Japanese judo and we got bjj after a bunch of refinement
sensei Lenny I have a honest question for you will Aikido work against a knife attack or some kind of stick like object?. Thank you very much!
In my opinion the techniques that aikido has to defend knife attacks will never work. I'd run as fast as I can away from a knife attacker. I'd rather be shot than stabbed.
THE ROGUE WARRIORS - Where Warriors are FORGED Thank! You! sensei Lenny i appreciate your feed back keep up the great work.
THE ROGUE WARRIORS - Where Warriors are FORGED On that point I believe Christian Tissier agrees with you so maybe there is some hope?
Sensei Lenny I have to be honest with you. I "love" your sense of humor, you crack me up all the time when you're ripping into these trolls and "know-it-alls" , I just die (Lmfao). I love Aikido. I love you. I love the fact that you take time out of you busy schedule to make these videos. You keep knocken them out and I`ll keep watching.
P.S. I like the peace and love and harmony stuff, but I really like Aikido for the ability to break and dislocate arms/wrists, elbows and shoulders. (yes, I have a mean streak in me).
That's awesome and thank you for commenting.
Lenny~
Thanks for taking Aikido into the real world! This must be called 'Reality Aikido'. :)
Excellent demonstration. The late Karl Geis would instruct if it takes more than minimal force you haven't taken your opponents balance and is probably a very bad idea to attempt to throw. Practicing techniques is teaching the subconscious how to stay ahead of the opponent keeping him off balance in an infinite number of possible movements since there is no way to predict what motion will occur. This is why randori is the place to explore multiple variables.
Thank You
Thanks. I understand that all the Kihons are just to set up opportunities to train all the variations (Kaeshi Waza e Henka Waza).
Thanks for producing the videos! Will Bob be attending the PA seminar?
Yes bob, rod, Andy and nick will be there assisting me.
Love the videos sensei keep it coming. All the black belts in my school thinks that they are O sensei. When I get my black belt in aikido i want to do kenpo. Everybody in my dojo is a Aikido Bunny Even myself And I know this techniques does not work. You're videos made me feel better. Aikido is good For health and strength and a piece of mine. some Techniques in aikido are ok.👍🙏
Some techniques doesn't need to work to fill a purpose. If you are studying Aikido, you are studying the philosophical art of combining energy and forces. Some techniques doesn't work in Jutsu. I dont really think that Sensei mean that he should reform the Do into Jutsu. Lenny is studying Aikijutsu more than Do (correct me if I am wrong).
Look at this Kata; czcams.com/video/Mcxd0hK_IqQ/video.html (Koshinki no Kata). Even a judoka (in this kata) has Hakama! Does this wonderful Kata work in Jutsu? NO! . Does this Judoka use the techniques in her competitive game? NO!
But it is the base of Budo (the art). Does Judo have JuJutsu? YES! Does Judo work in Jutsu? YES! Does Aikido work in jujutsu? YES!
Incorrect :) Aikijutsu/Aikijujutsu is what aikido was birthed from. It was then polished with philosophy and religious beliefs. Take Sensei learned Traditional Aikido and wanted to make a more practical form to be used in the street. Then TenShin Aikido was born. TenShin has a lot of characteristics of Aikijujutsu, but it is a different breed. I would venture to say that TenShin Aikido is a refined version of Aikijujutsu. I am a shodan in AikiBuJutsu. Perhaps it looks similar because it is all in the same family. :)
I stand corrected. Still, I am one of those who define Do and Jutsu from and past the era of the ban of martial arts and the philosofical ways. All arts of the Bushido devides in jutsu and Do. Every school of Do has its birth from its Jutsu. But today, we can still train Jutsu. This is more an academic discussion best discussed elsewhere. Now, I see the full purpose of Lenny's teachings. Still it is more Jutsu than Do. Its self defense not art of recreation. Still, I cant understand this addiction to brake the flow of momentum!
Thank you, Sensei Sly for exposing the truth. I would like to suggest one thing to add to the ‘Way that doesn’t work’ video: At the end after you showed how it doesn’t work, present the way that this technique would work at the same time. I was very curious to see how it would work after seeing this because in our dojo in Dubai we were doing the same technique and this really opened my eyes. I hope to see how these techniques would work. Arigatou Sensei Sly!
Tom, he says in the video that he will release the version that does work on his other series ''If it hurts, it works" Stay tuned :)
While I agree that what usually passes for kaiten nage does not work in the real world, in the scenario you set with Bob locking up tai no henko is the basic exercise to break his posture. I note that in going under the arm you do not use kokyu ho which would break his posture at that point. In drawing him back either your knee strikes his face or you reverse your leg and draw him onto the back; the intent for real being to break his neck. There is also a blow to the back of his neck which further encourages compliance or renders him unconscious. I AM NOT SERIOUSLY SUGGESTING THAT YOU WOULD GO THROUGH THE WHOLE RIGMAROLE IN THE STREET, but where uke resists he also pauses and becomes vulnerable to strikes. I think that you are right to point out the limitations of Dojo practice, but as you pointed out in another video; it is up to the higher grade to train down to the capabilities of the lower grade, at the same time one must not fail to add the more subtle components that make the technique useful for learning Aikido skills and concepts. The value of Kaiten nage as a dojo technique is that it contains a great many key movements, and the benefits of practising Kotei, Kitei and Jutei vary.
13:46 dude the fucking deadpan delivery had me on the floor.
I'll drop some by the next time I'm in the states ;)
Another Kick-Ass, Truth Bombing, Butt-Hurting, video. Keep pumping em out Sly Sensei. Wake-up the morons, shake-up the Martial Arts Community. I got your back in anyway you need Sly Sensei.
Good example of how Aikido works. The uke counters were Aiki and shows that being uke shouldn't always be just about being practice dummy should be learning to attack and counter . Also would be interesting if you could get Hiroshi Ikeda to do an interview. Have heard you mention him a few times. Great guy and interesting stuff.
I’ve trained with Ikeda Sensei countless of times back when I did the traditional stuff.
@@SLYSCOMBATIVECONCEPTS13 Was at an Ikeda Seminar a couple months ago and he was calling out ukes for just going through the motions, even high ranking senseis. His whole Saturday was spent on lecturing about being an honest uke and giving resistance and not just rolling when nage doesn't have it. He was specifically addressing the instructing senseis in the room to teach more honesty in the techniques and they aren't doing their students any favors allowing them to just go through the motions and do the proper ukemi with improper technique. So, maybe some Shihan are trying to change the traditional ways and get instructors to teach more honest/real-world scenarios.
That’s great. I’ve trained with Ikeda Sensei dozens of times, I am a former student in the ASU organization. I have the ut most respect for ikeda sensei, he’s such a great teacher.
@@SLYSCOMBATIVECONCEPTS13 I remember, many years ago, Ikeda sensei was giving a seminar and stopped Sensei Bruce Klickstein cold, over and over and over again--this very same technique I think. Everyone (it was a big venue) stopped what they were doing and sat to watch. Finally, Ikeda let Klickstein throw him. I never forgot that--that no one is above instruction.
Kaiten Nage is emblematic of the "it doesn't work" spirit of Aikido. lol
Hello,
What is your view in Yoshinkan Aikido? OSU !
10.15, you can counter his counter, by elbow bar, interesting when you doing possible aikido sparr, you should use the same eye when you diffuse any technique, isn't that aikido in itself?
applicable is uh-PLICK-uh-bull or ah-PLICK-uh-bull with the "ah" sounding like the "a" in "cat." I've also heard AHp-plick-a-bull, where the "ah" sounds like the "a" in "cat" and the "p" kinda bridges between the first two syllables.
Hey brother keep saving life’s ,from these martial art schools that teach for that green back and if your account is paid up to date they just give you your next belt whether that person has the correct skill set. I believe you have brought martial arts to the next level from the old traditional skill set of yesterday and has taken martial arts to the present day of fighting which has changed,thus technology also plays a big part in fighting and the mind set of 2018 vs the days of old so what may have worked back in the day won’t work today,because the mind set has changed along with technology so all of this matters to survive a present day fight. Hey take care my brother can’t wait to see your other future videos to come. Later..
Sensai your stuff is real . Im a karate guy but i love your stuff sir. Keep it up. I do the same with my karate students . I show them real life combat. not the movie bull crap.
you are funny, I love it when you had your legs up in the air, love it...
i been waiting to see you taking ukemi for years lol
He took ukemi a bunch of times in past videos. :)
sure, but not as hard as rod on a regular video basis lol
Sensei rarely take ukemi, so it is an honor to see Lenny Sly do it for our benefit to learn :)
Here goes another oldie, but goodie where he take ukemi for Rod :) czcams.com/video/04grUSS5bXc/video.html
thats cool, hey lori ill take ukemi for you any day XD
How about katatedori kaitenage soto ?
Thank you Lenny this is another great practical video. You do great work. Thanks for keeping it real. Before I go can you provide more information about your paid subscription channel I would like to check that out. When you have time. Martin Acton Northern Ireland
Thank you.
Just go to www.roguewarriorstc.com and click on Online dojo.
Wow thanks Lenny for getting back to me so fast. I will check it out soon. Thanks again :) Martin
Sure thing martin, thank you for supporting my work. Have a great week sir.
You too Lenny. :)
You know your shit! Screw the haters keep making these great videos.
Will do, thank you bro
There were some principals that you dropped from my point of view but I assume that was done to get your point across so its all good.
Oh I forgot to add that shihans will not comment on your videos. That is not the Japanese thing to do. There are numerous videos with senior shihans saying on an interview about being instructed to never criticize another persons aikido.
Personally I would never use that technique in actual combat because it is way to long. I use to do that same counter that was shown with the legs, but I use to do it from ikkyo where they would attempt the ikkyo on me and I would do a side roll which would break the lock, so when I went to the ground my arms would go under their legs for a throw. Then they use to tell me I cannot do that. I was the black sheep of the herd. I spent 17 years in the art and not once did they think to test me or promote me, but yet I'm promoted in three other different martial arts. They discriminated against me because of my disability from my brain injury that causes me to walk like I have cerebral palsy, but yet I was there the longest and probably one of the only one of their students that use it in real life. Great fucking people! Anyway, I use to counter them all the time. I use to duck under their arm when they would do Irimi nage and go around them to the back to counter. The only reason I stayed that long was because I loved Aikido for grabs.
Maybe they didn't promote you because you countered every waza...ahahahahahahahaha They were probably like, "GREAT, Justin just walked in!"
I thought I would be someone in the art after 17 years. Most aikido practitioners are stylist who are set in their ways and not martial artist who want to know the truth. I learned most of my counters and the concept of counters directly from the Filipinos in the art of Pangamot. However, I still loved Aikido enough to stay in it for 17 years.
You r 100000% right
Doing traditional way is essential but without good thinking it won't work in street
why is it essential? What do you mean exactly ''essential''? essential for it to work? You need to understand , at some point Aikido became more like '' What the fuck can we invent as a technique?? And then Of course , with a compliant partner , acting not as an opposing force but almost as an allies here , you can invent what ever you want and thats what happened for some techniques..He got lost in the way of ''' harmonising '' and for some techniques it became more like dancing instead of self-defense..So why is it essential? Essential for what?
Sir, with my full respect. I am just a newbie in comparison to you, but in my humble opinion you were not precise in this not working kaiten nage demo. Also I suspect you did it consciously, but there were several drawbacks: 1. You let uke fully recover after tunkan. 2.After diving under the hand you did not move enough to get behind the uke . 3. You did not use atemi on the uke neck to bring his head down and prevent his activities on your knee, etc. And I fully agree that this technique is too much complicated to be pulled on in real fight, unless you get extremely lucky. Thank you for your videos. My best regards!
Hi Mike. Just my two cents. I'm not affiliated with rogue warriors but have done aikido for a long time. Something to consider when making aikido "practical"... mainly, you need to learn the technique in its proper form, obviously. If the goal is to make anything practical, as lenny said, you need varying energies and resistance from different ukes throughout ur training to learn practicality (how to make a technique work). Techniques alone are useless. Techniques combined with principles such as entering and kazushi and striking may allow for openings. This is when, and only when, you will ever be able to perform any technique. If I grabbed ur arm and said do any technique, ur not going to get a single one off unless you either set me off-balance or hit me. Never. As per ur comment, yes there are certain things lenny did not do, bc they may or may not be necessary; its situational. And no aikido technique is ever too complicated to do. The point of each technique is not to plan on doing a technique or finding it, it's to set kazushi and recognizing an application for technique when it presents itself. Hence henkawaza. Some things fail, but then u switch to another technique or kazushi until another technique presents itself. I've seen whitebelts do kaitennage in their first few days on accident bc when someone is bent over, arm up, everyone knows to push away. Practice the techniques, then practice different attacking energies to learn "practicality". Remember, there is no "correct" way to do any of these techniques; not kotegaeshi, Sankyo, Nikkyo... just a better ways to perform them which will change with every uke and attack. Dynamics.
I agree with you. But after a while I think I am not buying this "Not working akido stuff". It is obvious to me that authors just ruin the principles of aikido. And when they fail the basics (does not matter for what reasons, f. e. they believe it was caused by brutal violent atack) the technique falls apart. I don't want much to argue. It's fair enough that it is their own channel and they show what they want to, but I feel pity for they (to my mind) are closing some doors for themselves and for the channel followers. I mean there is always a temptation to use force. It is much simpler and promissing safety.
The problem of aikidotechnics is that they presume that The opponent (uke) is keep holding on to tori's wrist. In real life The opponent would let go immediately when aikidoka is starting to do something 'weird" like circuling around etc.
good demonstration ,in my opinion , , aikido is a kind projection of combat in safety way, to the dojo to make people understande how to move and how to escap a dangerous situation , but it stays virtual ,it can't make you a warrior unless you began a real fight, fore instance studying economie or bussines don't make you a busseness man unless you anter in reel bussiness and tray to keep safeLire la suite
This is going to be a LONG series.. Lol
If by ASD IT DOES WORK BUT MUST PRACTICE
What are they gonna say. All.i can see is. " you did good job" 👍
I just have something to ask you please with all do respect man ok, so the move u do and teaching us you know it inside out I might not remember that if someone suddenly attacks me, mostly here in brazil they come at u with a gun or a big fuckin nife can u help how can I make my mind remeber some of the moves you are giving us ?? Thank u a lot Good job I love it
First off move the hell out of Brazil, that is a dangerous place, lol like I need to tell you that huh. You know you live there. The only sure way of remembering is to practice these moves over and over again.
@@SLYSCOMBATIVECONCEPTS13 hahhahahah man I wish I could am stuck here for the next year and a half until I get my passport , am alone I have no one to practice with , life sucks ha, but I was hhhhhhhhhhh practicing with the cleaner hand u know the hover , but I need work man I loved aikido since I new Steven Segal is a master in it but it was illegal in my country at the time. So if I have a chance to come over and take some lessons with u I wonder back down I well come as soon as I can
To my humble Sensei:
I have one thought I want to take a randori in this matter;
The way you are standing in this subject. I can remember that you have discussed the classical differentiation of Do and Jutsu before, though I wonder what you are about to become in your standings. As you surely know it is a difference between the self defense perspective (Jutsu) of both Aiki, Ju and Ken and the philosophical training in the way (the Do) a student train his Aiki, Ju or Ken. Are you trying to enforce Jutsu to Do or take Do into Jutsu?
If we are taking Do, we must remember that we have a lot of techniques thats only serve its purpose to aim for the student to be healthy. A classical example is the Kata; Ju-no-kata. A Kata thats have only one soul purpose in the Budo world; to stretch muscles that is under-trained and strained when you throw. Does this Kata work in Jutsu and real world? Sure not! Does the traditional Koshinki-no-kata work? Sure not! But the both exists for a purpose (and Konshinki is a wonderful artwork to watch!). Many of the Aiki techniques you talking about is the form of Do and the purpose of philosophical study. But! I don't throw you here, in my randori. I know what you are saying and I understand why. I accept your perspective.
If we are taking Jutsu: I have been a low grade student of Aikido, my base is in Ju(do) and Ju(jutsu). As a Aiki-student I need to accept the things you show in this clip. I need to grasp the context to interrupt the mechanical flow of forces when you do the things like katate dori kaiten nage. For me, the interruption of forces and momentum is ineffective, why does Aiki often do this?
Take your Taisabaki in 8:39, sensei; why do you interrupt the flow and go under the arm? If you take the perspective of Jutsu, why don't you (as tori) use the 10 course menu of throws you can apply when Uke is on the way forward? As a Ju-student, My head itching every time I see you half way in to a Sode-Tsurikomi-Goshi and you stop there and don't follow up. I see this in Gote-Gaeshi too, why do you, as a Aiki-sensei, interrupt the flow of mechanics if you want to take Jutsu?
Is the discussion about the classical dilemma; Do versus Jutsu? Or are you trying to enforce Jutsu into Do? Perhaps I misunderstood your standings and you are only aiming to pointing out that some techniques in Do doesn't work in Jutsu as several other students claim, is that right?
I don't think he is doing either. He teaches TenShin Aikido. TenShin Aikido is different from traditional Aikido. TenShin was ''invented'' by Take Sensei. Take Sensei (Steven Seagal) learned AikiKai and converted it to a practical form of Aikido which was dubbed TenShin; after the name of the dojo. TenShin does not project out when throwing, it throws straight down to the ground to control the attacker. TenShin also uses more atemi. TenShin differs from traditional also by being more direct. Instead of tenkan into iriminage, TenShin will use Te Sabaki hand deflections and iriminage straight away. If a TenShin and Tradiitional aikidoka were side by side performing the same waza, The TenShin uke will be on the floor and pinned before the traditional uke even received the throw. Also, TenShin is the only Aikido style that uses Te Sabaki (to the best of my knowledge). So I humbly say that I don't think he is trying to convert to DO or JUTSU. He is merely showing the difference between TenShin and Traditional Aikido. :)
Exactly!
Fine enough. I still thinking it should be more proper to recognize the purpose of the training. Are you training for your health and wellbeing or do you train for self defense, or perhaps active arrest?
I Love your show and your sacrifice Lenny, but a school shouldn't quit using old techniques only for the reason they doesn't work. I think you have used ineffective techniques on the streets too. I love your clip about Ukemi, I want to see more of that. Ukemi-waza is my favorite waza.
My part of Do vs Jutsu is deeper than Lenny's idea of TenShin, I guess. Sorry for that comment.
Here is something that puzzles me: why do people study martial arts as a collection (or more) of ready-made solutions for physical conflicts they might be involved in. Obviously, no art can (or should) anticipate all the *possible* conflict situations for the simple reason that they are infinite. To be clear, the number of *actual* conflict situations you will find yourself in is finite, but the number of *possible* conflict situations is infinite, hence the pointlessness of trying to "cover" them. What do you think?
Razvan ZamfirThats right.That is why boxing Muay Thai and other kick boxing arts are the only ones that work in striking.It just teaches you how to strike properly and then they just drill you to develop your strength and your reaction time.That is the only way
Hey Lenny, quick question: did You ever experience Christian Tissier Aikido firsthand? Like when during seminars after showing a technique he walks among participants and sometimes demonstrates again with random people or may be under any other circumstances. So, did that happen to You or are You judging solely by watching videos on internet? I think this question would not take long to answer. Just a Yes/No would be much appreciated.
What does it matter? Christian Tissier is a well respected Shihan within the AikiKai umbrella. That being said, his Aikido demonstrations are for entertainment purposes only. They have no practicality on the street. Ukemi is important so the uke prevents injury, but the Tissier ukemi is exaggerated for effect. Tissier is a damn good Traditional Aikidoka, but it's still just traditional aikido and a punch-drunk boxer would embarrass his aikido on the street. So feeling his techniques first-hand have no relevance because he is not a dragonball z character and he cannot harness visible energy fields through his ki. He is just a human who has been training ineffectively his whole life. lol
I am not talking about public demonstrations for spectators. I am talking about seminars where people practice. You are asking "what does it matter" and Lenny is asking what kind of stuff people who believe Tissier's Aikido is real are smoking. My answer is that experiencing his Aikido firsthand is what fits the description the best. I assume You hadn't ever experienced that either, too bad I actually wanted an answer from Lenny, not from some irrelevant youtube troll. Just for the record of those who might read this thread: Christian Tissier never talks about some invisible energy or other metaphysical stuff, he also makes a clear distinction between educational approach and applications. Check for Yourself where he addresses the same issues of Kaiten nage as Lenny but provides solutions within "traditional" aikido framework without resorting to "practical/tactical" brutality: czcams.com/video/VwX5GPziTUU/video.html
"some irrelevant youtube troll" lol. You should never use wit in a segue. Listen, understanding witticism and replying to it, makes your subject perform a fast, detached scan that's inimical to mood. It's on the plank of mood that we proceed. You were doing fine. You were courteous and receptive to courtesy; then you come with this ham-handed segue and it simply won't do. I entertained your click-bait and wasted 16 mins of my life watching impractical applications. Show me a video of Tissier doing waza with the uke resisting. Until then, he teaches fairytales to aikibunnies.
jjtharp, you said, "Yeah I've watched quite a few of Christian Tissier video's here on youtube and I don't see anything wrong with the way he is preforming his Aikido martial art practice- none?? " I can point out in every video where Tissier is flawed. I can even sum it all up in one word. RESISTANCE. Where is the uke's resistance? The resistance is what you will find on the street every single time. Training with resistance makes the waza applicable. Click on the video Michal posted and see where Tissier has to correct the uke and coax him to grip harder because he was letting go of the wrist. Why? because if the uke don't play along, then there is no waza in traditional Aikido. it's as simple as that. If you guys want to watch traditional videos...there is plenty out there....this is a not traditional platform...it's TenShin Aikido and it works in real life. I don't understand what you guys don't get about that????????????
Seems I need to clarify my point here. I only had one question: did Lenny experience Tissier's aikido firshand before calling it "ballerine"? So far I only got a trollish (" a punch-drunk boxer would embarrass his aikido" , "has been training ineffectively his whole life. lol") reply from Lori which I don't care about. Hence to me Lori is an irrelevant CZcams troll, he might be a nice talented person in real live but "What does it matter?". Lenny OTOH is also a troll but relevant and a talented one, I like to watch his videos both for sharp language and sharp forms. Keep going Lenny, your videos usually make my day!
Sensei Sly - Do you know what type of Aikido that Steven Seagal practices. Is it "Tenshin" Aikido, or another form. Now I'm certainly not a big fan of Seagal's, but I was curious about what you thought about his style of Aikido. Does it work, and so forth. And also, does Randori itself help you in the real world where Aikido is concerned or is in fact, just a load of bull shit. Not disrespecting your art of course, but since you are being honest and truthful as far as what works and what doesn't I was just kinda wondering... - Thanks, Darren
Hey Darren.
Steven Seagal sensei style of aikido is TenShin Aikido. It’s the same style I do. So knowing that I do the same should probably have answered a few of those questions and such. Randori it’s self if you’re good at it DOES play a good part in response to real world situations. Traditional aikido randori is a whole another story. As for what works and what doesn’t in aikido. That would a take awhile to explain it. So the short story is…. It all depends on the person using it. I can’t speak for the aikido world. I can only speak for myself. I know my mind set and my skill set. Most aikido people are scared of their own shadow’s. Also aikido will never look like it does when you’re training it in the dojo. It’s ugly on the street. And if you ever think I’m gonna do this or that or whatever the next time someone fucks with me. LOL you gotta another thing coming. You’ll NEVER pull anything off aikido wise in a fight if you plan it. If you do that or think you’ll do that, then you have no idea about MuShin and haven’t reached that point in your training YET.
As far as I know, kaiten nage isn't in the Yoshinkan syllabus. Did it appear later on in O Sensei's teachings or did Kancho Shioda just ignore it for reasons similar to those shown in the video I wonder?
gimblegrok .... I’m Nidan in Yoshinkan ... and Kaitenage is NOT in the syllabus. Why? I have no idea.
Just some observations:
1. Yoshinkan names it’s techniques in the same manner as Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. I would say that Yoshinkan is Daito Ryu but with a pared down curriculum.
2. Yoshinkan stresses the need to imbalance you opponent at the moment of contact. You must take your opponents Centre. We spend lots of time developing our koshi by way of kamae.
3. Yoshinkan is very, “linear”. Aikikai is far more “circular”. Again because we are to imbalance our opponent at the moment of contact. In this respect all Yoshinkan techniques are “entering”.
4. We still retain strikes. Personally, we should do more striking. I spend more time looking at Daito Ryu than Aikikai for inspiration.
That being said ... I love Lenny Sly because Yoshinkan needs an update as well. The curriculum’s primary movement is Shomen/Yokumen Uchi. Katate/Kata need to be emphasized more. Ditto for Ubi dori and quick hands. My hands are quick, but they need to be quicker.
Cheers !
Hi John, thanks for that. I think number 3 on the list may be a big part of it. Taking as an example Shomen Uchi Shomen Irimi Nage Ni. I'm thinking about how direct and "linear" even a big turning motion like that is in Yoshinkan compared to its Aikikai equivalent.
I imagine if there had been a kaiten nage type technique in the syllabus it would have looked a lot more like the Tenshin version or maybe even the more direct method that Lenny favours.
gimblegrok ... Thanks for replying. Interesting coincidence, we were doing this exact technique last class ( Shomen Uchi Iriminage Ni ).
In Taichiai
1. Yoshinkan stresses angles in 45 deg increments. With all techniques. Your tested on it. In this technique we need to hit 180 deg.
2. Uke must be directed downward, cork-screw fashion.
3. Collar grab, plus shift, with an atemi to the face. You’re driving uke into your fist. My problem was driving uke too hard. I lost uke, plus lost posture in executing with strength.
4. Shift back, drive uke down.
In jiyuwaza it looks more like Take Sensei’s Iriminage. Likewise, in many cases, at speed, it manifests as either Ikkajo or hijiate Kokyu Nage because uke is coming in hard and heavy with his strike. We are taught to hit hard and heavy ( within reason ) as part of Yoshinkan.
I will say that Yoshinkan absolutely adores Take Sensei because we see the directness of his style, especially shihonage and kote gaeshi. Impressive !
You should check out Billy Doak Goshin Jutsu. You’ll see a
Perfect blend of Judo and Aikido. Absolutely impressive.
Wow that is a very complicated throw.
I want to practice martial arts to defend myself. Can Aikido be useful? I like Aikido but I can only find criticism in the Internet. Even if I practice Aikido, will I find a teacher who will teach me how to use Aikido in the street? Now I hear from an experienced like you that Aikido can be unhelpful in the real world just give me one reason and I will start practicing Aikido tomorrow
Good analysis. Main problem is chasing of hands instate of attacking structure of you opponent. You see this also allot with practitioners of Chinese internal styles (don't like this internal / external classification, but to make a point) and semi internal styles like Wing Chun.
It is a result of incorrect training and has nothing to do with effectiveness of a martial art. Just bad teaching.
Luckely you see more people, like you, addressing this.
ok
I see that you only demonstrate uchi mawari and not soto.. is this because you believe that both are ineffective or because uchi has more problems Inherent? I think kaiten nage will always be a difficult technique to apply in a real situation but I have seen it work very well -even when uke is giving a hard time. I think saying something doesn't work is based on the circumstance.
Technically everything won't work if you know what to change to make it not work.
You would only know if it works by using it on someone who doesn't know what you are doing. Saying it won't work on a trained martial artist seems obvious but the goal of aikido is to avoid fighting and not compete so why would we be fighting another martial artist?
Just some views. Very good videos and your ideas are interesting. Thanks for taking the time to record/upload them.
Aaron wieclawski,
It means, stop practicing those techniques that do not work.
K Ismail you have clearly missed my point. The technique does work. Millions of people including o sensei, saito sensei, takeda sensei practiced and developed it over years of study and dissection. Who are we to say it doesn't work just because we can stop it because we change the circumstances?
Technically I can stop any punch or kick you throw if I know it's coming and where you intend to strike.. how is this any different?
Aaron wieclawski,
Wrong. That technique the above will not work in real time. Period. And who the fuck is these millions? Show me a videos of them doing this in real time. You can probably make it work by modifying it. Best is to discard it.
K Ismail I think if you have those ideas then martial art STUDIES are not for you. The purpose is to develop and question over time. It all works. It wouldn't exist if it didn't. We are meant to explore how, why, where and when it works over our years of training.
Aaron wieclawski,
Martial arts is for me and I am one. I am using a real account. You don't. Of course people developed techniques since ancient times but as the world progress and so does the art. Everything needs to evolve and Aikido is no exception. Again, that shit the above does not work, period! Lenny did a hell of a job by exposing it.
Did you mention the french guy Christian Tissier ? Well, I have been 30 years ago on his weekend course. I got to know, he has been a kick-boxer in his youth so we asked him to demonstrate how to work against that type of attack, no chance..I was his uke when I demonstrated several things, I was allowed to hit or kick him, but his control of my center was so tight that I could not stab or hit nor kick him when he was "balletting" me around. so please do not talk crap about persons you really don´t know. Perhaps you should attend his courses too ? If you know more about him, please tell. Generally I fully agree that 99% of aikido is useless, but those who can master the 1%, what about them ? Recently I have taken some bjj classes, and the best ones there who rely on bjj and not on brute force, are very close what good aikidokas can do or could be.
I never really understand why should self defence be only limited in martial arts. Martial arts is simply the idealization of fighting or self defence techniques, which are actually brutal and effective, into something that are artistic and nice to see. So, in my opinion self defence or fighting has no need for fixed form or techniques. It is simply about killing and destroying as many as quick possible. Martial arts is like an antique weapon in museum while self defence is like a hammer bathed in fresh blood being hold by a strong arm and hidden inside a jacket.
Wolfram, After the war, Martial arts were banned and they had to disguise the arts to appear harmless and ineffective.
Lori Powell thanks for the reply. I know the history but i think it is obvious from that martial arts by definition is only concern with idealized forms and not in effectiveness. My father was a repo man and one time he had to reposesed a car of a then girlfriend of one of the largest aikido federation in the place where i used to live. So the boyfriend came to him with his aikido stuff and my father threw a flower pot to his head. My father was a grandson of a police captain and although he never studied martial arts, he could kick someones face while sitting. He respected that i learn aikido but for him self defence is something else. Sometimes mind games and mental terror could also be used for this purpose. Anyway, its interesting to see discourses about martial arts and stuff, but i think as an art it trancends the effectiveness of self defence alone and is closer to methods of self dicipline and improvement, in my view of course. Maybe i should also make video series about this, but i am not sure if anyone would actually watch them.
I would watch it :)
So would i
The trial and error of aikido teaching lol. I doubt Lenny every realized how proverbially hungry students would be online for his information
What do you mean
THE ROGUE WARRIORS - Where Warriors are FORGED you gave that lecture in the beginning about changing your mind because you got so many requests
And I never have become delusinal from cannabis.
13:51
LOL!
Sounds like the teacher off of South Park lol mmm Kay! Jk bro go take a look at Karl Geiss videos or windsong dojo mmm kay
Send a link
the auto focus is killing me.
Excellent
Wake up people think outside the box. With your training aikido works but not the way most of you practice it .
Same can be said for karate, kungfu even bjj.
Always keep asking questions and trying new things .always have an answer for the weapons and violence of the time you live in .not hundreds of years before ..
Guarantee this when they were first formed all the traditional systems were rooted in reality .. traditions are bad for fighting systems .they promote falsehoods ..
Outstanding. That truly is terrible technique. Not the technique itself, just the way you do it. After all your years in 'Traditional' aikido, I would have thought you would be able to do this technique well. I'm astonished at how poorly you perform it. I have to congratulate you though, it's presented extremely well as a flawed technique, excellent marketing. Doesn't change the fact that your execution of it is poor. The openings you talk about only exist because your technique is bad. Regardless of what you say, that's the simple truth of it.
I'm also completely overwhelmed by the sheer level of arrogance and hubris you display. Why on earth would you think any Shihan should come along and correct you, or argue against you. There's an old saying, 'Never wrestle with a pig, you'll both get covered in sh*t but the pig will enjoy it.' Why would you think they have even seen your videos, or if they have why do you think they would care?
Still, outstanding marketing, genuinely impressed by the manipulation.
John Smith is obviously a fake account, created for the sole-purpose of trolling...but i'll take the bait. I will take a wild guess here and say your real account is probably Michel, jjtharp, M S, or perhaps even a decorated Shihan. If I had to whittle it down, I would say it's not M S because his English sucks. It's also not jjtharp, because he agrees with Lenny Sly Sensei, sometimes. A decorated Shihan, unlikely, so I am leaning towards Michel. Am I right, Michel? Maybe it's some new blood that I can destroy...hahaha.
Either way, I will call you Bunny. Ok, Bunny... Let's start by saying that we would like to see some videos of you performing untouchable traditional aikido. Don't have any? Well, that sucks...because we almost believed your fantasy.
Shihan will not (and we don't expect them to) come along and comment, because at their level of Aikido, they surely know their shit doesn't work with resistance. So, they stay in their little caves playing humble as a defense against the truth. '̲'̲I̲f̲ ̲I̲ ̲p̲l̲a̲y̲ ̲h̲u̲m̲b̲l̲e̲,̲ ̲I̲ ̲d̲o̲n̲'̲t̲ ̲h̲a̲v̲e̲ ̲t̲o̲ ̲t̲r̲y̲ ̲t̲o̲ ̲d̲e̲f̲e̲n̲d̲ ̲t̲h̲a̲t̲ ̲w̲h̲i̲c̲h̲ ̲I̲ ̲k̲n̲o̲w̲ ̲d̲o̲e̲s̲n̲'̲t̲ ̲w̲o̲r̲k̲ ̲i̲n̲ ̲r̲e̲a̲l̲ ̲l̲i̲f̲e̲.̲'̲'̲
Here's another saying for you, "A̲̅i̲̅k̲̅i̲̅B̲̅u̲̅n̲̅n̲̅i̲̅e̲̅s̲̅,̲̅ ̲̅n̲̅e̲̅v̲̅e̲̅r̲̅ ̲̅w̲̅r̲̅e̲̅s̲̅t̲̅l̲̅e̲̅ ̲̅w̲̅i̲̅t̲̅h̲̅ ̲̅a̲̅ ̲̅p̲̅i̲̅g̲̅,̲̅ ̲̅b̲̅e̲̅c̲̅a̲̅u̲̅s̲̅e̲̅ ̲̅p̲̅i̲̅g̲̅s̲̅ ̲̅l̲̅i̲̅v̲̅e̲̅ ̲̅i̲̅n̲̅ s̲̅h̲̅i̲̅t̲̅ ̲̅a̲̅n̲̅d̲̅ ̲̅k̲̅n̲̅o̲̅w̲̅ ̲̅h̲̅o̲̅w̲̅ ̲̅t̲̅o̲̅ ̲̅m̲̅a̲̅n̲̅e̲̅u̲̅v̲̅e̲̅r̲̅ ̲̅w̲̅h̲̅e̲̅n̲̅ ̲̅s̲̅h̲̅i̲̅t̲̅ ̲̅h̲̅i̲̅t̲̅s̲̅ ̲̅t̲̅h̲̅e̲̅ ̲̅f̲̅a̲̅n̲̅!̲̅
Lori,
Some people you might reach ...... other's are a waste of time. Wisdom comes from recognizing the difference .......... where did I put that zafu? .....
You must be jealous, it's not our fault you suck.
Jealous? Dude, I’m not jealous of you, there’s literally nothing to be jealous of. If anything I feel pity. I’ve no idea who taught you to do this technique in the first place but your's is really poor. You’ll ignore this because you’re ego probably can’t handle it, but here’s a list of what went wrong with that technique. There was, genuinely, very little that was good about it. After 16 years of traditional aikido training, you appear to have missed a great deal. If you’re going to set yourself up to shit all over something, learn to do it properly first.
1. Uke’s attack is poor (granted, not your fault). The grip isn’t secure which means they’re not actually attacking you. If they were then the palm would be flush against the wrist, which it isn’t. This means the grip is extremely weak and you can easily break the grip allowing an elbow strike straight to the face
2. On the first tenkan you let the arm turn in (nages arm), this collapses the entire structure on that side of the body allowing the uke to expand into your space
3. The collapsed arm on the tenkan also prevents you from actually affecting the uke’s balance at all, which is why when you step back after the tenkan the uke is upright and about to smash your face in. Why, because they can, because you let them, because you failed to enter properly.
4. There is an opportunity to recover the situation at that point but you didn’t take it, because you’re atemi was worthless. It should have cut straight up the centre line dominating the space between the 2 of you and forcing uke to either lean back or take an uppercut. Instead, again, you let the arm collapse and totally fail to have any extension in the arm, allowing uke to dominate the centre line and force you onto the back foot.
5. When you make the kaiten step to go under uke’s arm it’s some of the worst technique yet. First, you collapse the other arm leaving your uke on balance. You might have been able to take the balance here (finally) but you blew that opportunity too. Frankly, all the uke has to do is retract their arm and you’re on your ass. Second, you make a cardinal sin in that you lift the arm over your head, further allowing uke to retain their balance. You should go under the arm, which is a very different concept
6. You utterly fail to cut down. You aren’t ever close to locking that position in to allow the final throw. It’s appalling, I’ve seen 5th Kyu do it better than you. This also means that your uke is high. They’re barely bent over and, due to your continual failure to have any effect on their balance they are in a very strong position to counter. At this stage they should have just torn your nut sack off. I would have.
7. Why your uke is thrown at this point I have no idea at all. They’re far too high and if this actually worked then it’s because you used nothing but muscle. Ukes head should be so low before you step in to throw that you naturally knee strike the face as you do, without raising your knee beyond a normal step.
8. You also let go of the back of the head, any uke worth their salt would have stood up at this point. The reason you let go of their head? Simple, you totally failed to step through and finish the technique. You’re back to relying on strength.
9. All of the above also applies to the ura version but with an added twist. As well as failing to step through the technique at the end, you fail to finish the actual turn to permit the ura version.
10. One final thing. Kaiten nage should make use of the Kaiten movement. Pretty sure you aren’t actually doing that. Can’t see your feet so hard to say but the hip movements suggest that you aren’t.
John Smith,
There are 3 reasons people make comments:
1. they honestly want to know/learn/contribute something.
2. something about it has upset them.
3. They're trolling.
Since you don't want to know anything and you seem to already know it all then you're not in group 1.
That means you're in group 2 or 3 so either get over yourself or just move on to someplace where you can have more fun.
Cuz.....reading your comments kinda says you have some transference going on there ( google that, it a phsicology concept) and stop wasting your time trying to win an argument nobody, other than you cares to have.
...... Must have fallen off the wrong side of my zafu in practice this morning so, my apologies Sly, Sensei......LOL
I keep saying - Aiki-waza are not for self-defence - they are to learn aiki.