AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - Episode #6
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- čas přidán 4. 03. 2018
- Aikido the way that doesn't work episode #6 features Bob Kamka sensei senior instructor under Lenny Sly sensei at that #roguewarriors training compound. We continue to explore traditional aikido techniques that don't work. In this episode Bob Kamka sensei goes over kosa dori sankyo and why it won't work in the traditional #aikido form.
Nice seeing you do a video bob. You and Lenny complement each other well.
I agree with you up to a certain point Bob. What makes the techniques work is not zanshin, ki extension, etc....it's atemi's! Most people forget that most Aikido techniques won't work at all without breaking the opponent's balance somehow or "uprooting" them. Ueshiba stressed this and it's a point that's been lost over the decades since his death. Aikido does evolve too but some of its core principles for what make it "Aikido" never change. This is an example. I'm sure if you had hit your aikidoka here, you would have been able to apply Sankyo or a technique similar much easier...I know it's just for training and awareness but I think you stress that most of these techniques are setups and the reason we practice them 2-3 thousand times before it becomes instinct is because we're learning muscle memory for when to apply in those situations. Good video and looking forward to more.
Agreed. If someone grabs you forcibly, you wouldn't want to resist. You would step back and go the direction of the grab to in order to try to break his balance that would allow you to do the technique.
Exactly thank you for commenting
I haven’t seen you comment here in awhile, welcome back
Correct!! No Aikido is working without Atemi and Irimi. This is what the Founder said. If you wait for somebody to grab you, it's over!!!
Another great installment to the series. Traditional Aikidoka (I am not bashing) just don't seem to get the concept of resistance. We train in a self defense art. SELF DEFENSE. It is meant for defending oneself in real world situations. So if you plan on defending yourself, then you better train like you are simulating a real encounter. That training involves resistance. Great Job, Bob and Rod!
In all honesty, I believe that what You do here is so beneficial for the aikido community. Because real thing is real! The truth is unbeatable and it sets the agenda. Aikido community should face the facts. Unless we see aikido as something like dance. I'm looking for more videos like that. Thank You Lenny Sensei.
Totally true. It’s not the art itself, it’s the manner and method of how you trained in it. Bravo!
Thank you for you're hard work.
Good stuff gentleman, keep it up. The way that doesnt work.
OH SHIT THANK YOU FOR MAKING THESE VIDEOS. I took AIKIDO back in the 90's and I was taught the bull shit. Just found your channel and did subscribed to night. Keep up your hard work. I'll be watching and learning.
Thank You.
Pete
Thank you pete.
Really Nice job Bob!
I've always had the theory if you don't actually have a hold of something where the attacker can't pull away then you don't have much of anything because they just pull away at the instant they feel contact with something.
Not an Aikido guy per se but I've had my share of trying to grab this or that "out of the air," as you put it, and that just aint gonna happen for a host of reasons too long to go into here.
But ...... GREAT JOB! clear and understandable video.
Edit:
And I shouldn't forget to say great job Rod! Every Nage needs a good Uke to make the technique, otherwise it just looks like a sloppy street fight.
Just stick with nikyo in that situation. Other waza would work as well. Save sankyo for another day. Constructive criticism only:-)
That is brutally honest! Literally. Lol. I appreciate the fact you took the time to point this out. I love aikido and have been wanting to learn more about it recently. And there is a whole lot of negative info online rn basically saying it's completely useless in the real world. But those of us that don't have small minds and allow ourselves to visualize real world aggression and technique together can realize there are VERY practical techniques that can be used aggressively in a real fight and give you, (or me) the edge we need to succeed. It doesn't need to look good if it works.
Great stuff Sensei Bob and Sensei Lenny. Keep the videos coming. I'm just curious about the technique of ikkyo in general, does it work like other experienced aikido martial arts schools use it like Christian Tissier, Seigo Yamaguchi, and the Aikido school Real aikido that all are on youtube? Say if you confuse or get the opponent in the right position, does Ikkyo work?
Most realistic synopsis I have seen on channel so far. Will there be a follow up to this video ...
Yes sir
i have never seen any aikido school that catches sankyo out of the air like that. i was under the impression that the most common sankyo application came after transitioning from ikkyo.
afiq radzi I too have only done it from ikkyo.
I believe O Sensei said Aikido is always evolving,and i think prior to ww2 it was brutal,Love Peace and harmony to thyself.Rock on my brothers of another mother.
There was no "Aikido" prior to about 1943 ish. "Aikido" was technically "born" after WWII so...... there really isn't any such thing as "Aikido" prior to that point.
And then "Aikido" consists of only those techniques taught by O Sensei between 1943-45 and maybe 1968 before the cancer kicked in.
You'll have to forgive me but history is one of my things and I get kind of annoyed when people pretend there was Aikido before it formally existed. What existed prior to Aikido is something, various somethings, but it WAS NOT Aikido as we see it today.
San ky o for another great demo, lol.
The way I've learned it, you never let your hand been grabbed on waist level. You extend your ki forward in the direction of his face (atemi) and by the time you've been grabbed, the technic did already started. I don't know if it is clear what I mean. But unfortunately you almost never experience a real attack during training, so you cannot developed your atemi and irimi movement. But this is a double-edged sword. Aikido became so popular because of harmony and big circle movement and sometimes it is been taught very soft. If we would trained Aikido today like they did back in 40' or 50' there will be far less people practicing Aikido these days. But Aikido has certainly to evolve ...
You can't learn aikido the right way with out it being a cooperative art. Its a system of learning the techniques based off weapons. There has to be a standardized system to learn the techniques. At 5:32 you do a straight arm. Ok, clench the fist and its a punch. I would do an ikkyo with that. It won't look like the regular ikkyos but it will work. Aikido won't be used exactly as you practice it. In this video your looking at it from a different perspective which is good and I think you have to do it in order to see how it can be applied.
Well done Bob!
I practice traditional aikido. Can you demonstrate a more practical applied approach to sankyo? Thank you in advance.
We already filmed it. I'll post it to CZcams Thursday jay.
THE ROGUE WARRIORS - Where Warriors are FORGED Thx
You can also find a plethora of practical sankyo variations at www.roguewarriorstc.com/
Off topic from the OP, but we have Lenny and Bob commenting which is awesome to see. All we are missing is ''Secret AsianMan'' to hop in on this :D
Dont mean to hijack this comment but hello from illinois lol
Hi do you deal with other grabs such as a grab to the hoody or a womens hare thanks .
What do you guys think of Tomiki Aikido?
I'm thinking of starting Tomiki Aikido as there is a Dojo near to where I live.
If that's all you have close to you, then go for it.:) Any Aikido is better than no Aikido,
You can rank up in Tomiki and then if a TenShin school pops up near you...you can take a conversion test. The way I see it is any TenShin Aikidoka can walk into any traditional Aikido dojo and do what they do, But no traditional Aikidoka can walk into a TenShin dojo and do what they do. :) But at least you will have the basics.
Thanks for the reply.
I'll give it a go.
👍
Great video Bob! I have a question for you, I am a bit agrresive, well more agrresive than I should. So I started doing MA's specifically Aikido (Traditional), my sensei teaches us the techniques that work and implementation of atemis, he's not like other stereotypycal traditional senseis (he's simillar to Lenny and you). Albeit he did teach me how to control my agrresion phisically, he didn't really teach me how to control my mental agrresion and I feel I will lose control one day. So my question is: how do you deal with students like myslef?
Much love, thanks!
BochaN 013 A teacher has its limits in this topic, go find a good psychologist, nothing wrong with that, you are already in the right path by training martial arts
Thanks a lot! I will!
Domo arigato gozaimasu!
You have to find what makes you so irritated. Once you figure that out...then you have to reassess why it makes you irritated and if it's worth getting angry.
Saw this video yesterday about training mental prevention of escalation of emotions during provokation physickly. Really good stuff for anger issues I think. These drills and info might be able to help you become better at dealing with anger or perhaps other triggers that escalates. You know this where I push you and you push me and 1 - 2 - 3 pushing palms become more slapping and transform into swinging fists of destrucktion. So this link is: How to prevent your own escalations that will result into fights verbally and physickly. Enjoy :D. czcams.com/video/njPBQJ0I-iI/video.html
Well, in my opinion, over aggressive training lies within yourself (the student). You need to identify that you are indeed exhibiting this trait, or be receptive if someone (particularly a teacher or a senior student) if you are chided or critiqued. Next, focus on training and practicing the technique or movement PRECISELY so that you do not rush and smash your way through it. The training focus will compliment your acknowledgement of the need to working on patience, temperament, and making the appropriate choice of application and escalation. By doing this, you'll find yourself actually STUDYING the art/system and yourself, rather than simply practicing it.
True.
Always enjoy the insights of the techniques, nice job done by everyone. But please, apply the waza to the camera man...Turn off the damn autofocus!
All donations are accepted lol. Feel free to donate this camera: www.adorama.com/us%20%20%20%20885051.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIttmxqdTc2QIVy0sNCh2THAlUEAQYASABEgKGdfD_BwE
Ura nikyo to sankyo...if the nikyo is working why go into sankyo...wanna be a rogue, nikyo down n kick him in the face...
Show us the way that works.....
Coming up next
Well, guys, you start to disappoint me. I start thinking that all this "not working thing" is just a big missleading turn on the road. No surprize that bad aikido does not work, no surprize that particular technique does not "always" work (You will never grab my hand - I keep my hands in pockets ). And what is the message - drop aikido, go for muscles, something real that hurts? But there is plenty of this stuff: "real" aikido, aikijitsu ... you name it. Doing things in a soft way is hard. Face agressive, brutal, hard atacks and stay soft, calm and sweet - is tremendously difficult, actually seems impossible. But in my opinion this is what this ART is about, and yes the goal is so high and hard to rich as a pick of the mountin and it can't be cheap to go there.
Don't get me wrong. I agree that aikido is not about peece and harmony, honney bunny stuf. It's budo. The way of the warrior - win or die. Win usually stands for the kill. At least hurt. But sometimes ... there is hope. But my comment is not about it.
I want to say that your channel was and is inspiring, actually I am your fan. But it is not a big deal to show how things do not work. Believe me a sincere aikido student sees it every training day, and doubts lay heavy on the heart (especialy when you see the boxers hummering their bags next door :-) ) But saying that aikido sucks - is cheap. Making it work, teaching others, showing the way - that's what make to respect you.
My best regards!
Keeping your hands in your pockets is a good way to kiss the concrete...lol
Yes, but the aikido won't work, right? he he
Well if you want to donate your body and be a pushover, be our guest!
If it dosen't work why not just go back to jujutsu though?
Yes guys you are talking about some right things but what the hell are you doing by yourself?
Andrew Stn I assume Lenny Sly Sensei was the cameraman 😁
Se fai così le tecniche ti credo che non ti riescono, ma di cosa stiamo parlando??? Te l'aikido non lo conosci proprio e ti permetti di fare questi video. E comunque una cosa è la situazione da strada un 'altra è la pratica e per la cronaca non sai neanche tirare i pugni e se pensi con quei pugni di fare qualcosa a qualcuno stai fresco.
Well, I must say that looked pretty, and I’m totally unsurprised that it doesn’t work for you. I’m beginning to get a really clear picture of why you all turned your back on ‘traditional’ aikido. You guys just aren’t very good at it.
To start with I’m just going to ignore the ridiculous part where you grab a set of fingers out of the air. I’ve never seen anyone even attempt that, until this video that is (although I freely admit that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence). So leaving that to the side, here’s a couple of things you might want to do to make your technique actually work:
1. Stop breaking the only rule that we have in aikido. You stay on the line of attack. You are literally the only people I’ve seen that do that. Every other aikidoka in the world gets off the line of attack. Not you though, you stay on it. Of course it doesn’t work, you failed at the very first step. There’s a quote from O’Sensei that’s really apt here, ‘You’re all doing wonderful aikido, after you’re dead’ I could really just stop right there, because that’s enough to make the point that you are, yet again, deceiving people on what is happening, but screw it, in for a penny, in for a pound.
2. You’ve left your feet behind, which means your using muscular strength to make the technique work. I know this because moments after you take Rod’s hand you start to bend over. You’re no longer upright, which means you haven’t entered enough and have sacrificed your centre.
3. On the subject of centres, you don’t take the ukes. You completely miss Rod’s centre. You may have had a connection to it for about half a second but you lost it straight away. This actually leaves you very open to attack. We’re back to point 1, you stayed on the line and left an opening through poor technique.
4. I’m about 95% certain that Rod could have just stood while he was being pinned. It looked like the sankyo released on the way down, a cardinal sin that allows them straight back to their feet.
5. Yes, a wrist grab is a precursor to a follow-up attack, hence point 1 above. You can’t get hit if you aren’t there anymore. Additionally, you’re getting hit because of physics. It’s that simple, Force = Mass x Acceleration. The Force generated by your unmoving arm is zero, the Force generated by Rod’s fast moving body substantially exceeds this, the result is your arm collapses, Rod moves in and you get punched. You tried to resist and paid the price. Foolish. Get off the line and that problem goes away.
6. Nikkyo to Sankyo. I seriously just wanted to throw my computer out the window watching that. You never, ever, attempt a hand transition when the uke is in a strong position. Why? Because they slip out of it. Ludicrous to even suggest trying it from that position. This is why you can’t do it when he’s standing but you’re perfectly capable of pinning him by transitioning from sankyo to nikkyo (which is what you did) when he’s flat on the floor. Having said that you shouldn’t even be doing it in the first place, because the grip you get is the grip you’re stuck with, but if you are going to do it, at least do it properly.
7. Demonstrating that switching to nikkyo omote doesn’t work in that position is highly disingenuous, especially since all you had to do was apply the wrist lock instead of messing around with the elbow. A clever deceit, but a deceit none the less.
8. That ‘atemi’ to the face. If you’re going to do something like that do not step back in front of the uke to do it, because that’s also called walking into a punch. Nobody does that, because it’s stupid. See point 1 above.
9. A fundamental principle of aikido is that you use the opponent's strength, not your own. Yet you attempt to use muscular strength to make the technique work. If you move your whole body from your hips then this problem goes away.
Well, you gave a fair assessment of what you viewed. As it stands, your statement holds no water, because you are critiquing via hindsight. To solidify this statement, we would like to see a video of you doing it properly (with your uke using resistance.) We don't care if it is shot on a cell phone camera. Please record your version with an honest attack and honest resistance and disconnection from your uke. You can post it on Lenny's TenShin Aikido FB page. Thanks for the comment and the time it took to type it all out.
facebook.com/groups/1114433375247772/
John Smith,
There's what works for you and then there's what works for Lenny & Bob. It's as simple as that.
I've never been able to throw a decent, fast, high kick in my life. Aside from the fact it's likely completely useless as a self defense technique ( 99% of the time) , I'm not Bruce Lee.
Maybe you're the "Bruce Lee" of the Aikido world so..... traditional Aikido works exceptionally well when you apply it but ...... what works for you works for you.
Lenny and I would disagree on the usefulness of zazen in training but I really don't care because it works for me. If it doesn't work for Lenny & Bob, what difference does that really make?
I just don't get this stupid need to argue about techniques/styles.
"As it stands, your statement holds no water, because you are critiquing via hindsight. " What? What does that even mean? Are you saying 'John Smith' is wrong? Granted, these experiments and demonstrations are highly situational, I'd like to see a video of 'John Smiths' version as well, demonstrating the points raised. Like Art T said, they may work for one person and not another, or in one situation and not another.
No, I don't think he is wrong. I think he is mistaken. Hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy to play a video over and over to find holes. John Smith probably doesn't know that these guys have 28 years of Aikido experience, so who is he to say that the form is improper? What are his credentials in Aikido? What style of Aikido does he train in? One style's form is different from another style's form. Do you think KiSociety does the same kosa dori sankyo then Aikikai or Iwama? No, sir. By simply saying his form is improper tells me he is mistaken and not well educated in the many many forms of Aikido. So, a video demonstrating his points would hold more water. :)
jjtharp
I don't have 30 years of Aikido but what I do have is years training Cops and trust me when I say if you don't have a hold on the SOB it's just not going to work.... PERIOD. So .... the whole "hand washing" application of this technique is bullsh*t among other things.
Again, what works for you works for you .... great, do that then.