Shocking Comments About RAF Bomber Command VS 8th Air Force | My Full Analysis
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- čas přidán 6. 07. 2024
- In response to some interesting comments I've received on this channel, I want to look into two questions in this video:
Was RAF Bomber Command too afraid to fly missions during the day?
Was the British bombing campaign of the Second World War less effective than their American Allies?
There's a lot to unpack, so feel free to add any additional points you feel aren't covered in enough detail in the comment section...hay, it might spark another video!
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Welcome to my channel where I share my love of history and aviation. I first fell in love with military aviation when reading Biggles books as a boy, then I studied history at university. I like finding interesting stories and sharing them with others.
I also followed this passion into the real world and managed to get a Private Pilot's Licence on 10th May 2014.
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⏱️ Timestamp:
0:00 Comments from the community
1:40 Was RAF Bomber Command too afraid to fly during the day?
3:38 The beginnings of the 8th Air Force in Europe
4:53 Why did the 8th air force fly daylight missions?
10:32 A Comparison of British & American casualties
13:09 Dangers faced by all WW2 aircrew
15:44 Bomber Command vs 8th Air Force Bombing strategy
19:46 How effective was the British bombing campaign?
Images: other than where stated, images used in the video have been found on commons.wikimedia.org/
#aviationhistory#history
This video was sparked by some pretty controversial viewer comments made on a previous video. I decided to use those themes as the basis for this debate.
As historians, even amateur ones, it's our job to explore all perspectives and come to the most balanced conclusions. With this in mind, I challenge you to watch this video with an open mind and then give your own conclusions.
Of course, feel free to react immediately until you've actually seen what it's all about, that is your prerogative. 😀
You've gotten a lot wrong.
Long range escorts of 8th Air Force bombers started in January of 1944 not "late in 44" as you keep claiming.
The myth of the P51 being the first fighter capable of escorting the bombers all the way to the targets and back has been debunked numerous times over the years, the fact is by January of 44 both P38's and P47's had been escorting bombers over Berlin weeks before the first P51's did, the Bomber Mafia Generals that thought the bombers wouldn't need escorts early on started the P51 myth before the war was even over to keep from being drug before a Congressional inquiry concerning the heavy losses of bombers on the early unescorted missions, they even went as far as falsifying the true range of the P47 in a late war report on fighter ranges as part of their cover up, but official records and the testimony of both P47 and P38 pilots in books written by them in the years after the war clearly show that they were indeed escorting bombers over Berlin and even further in January of 44 after they were finally supplied with the proper types of drop tanks to do it.
P47's shot down 570 of the 893 German fighter's downed in the first 3 months of 1944, because starting in January of 44 they were no longer turning around at a certain point and were escorting the bombers all the way to their targets and back after finally being supplied with the US made all metal pressurized drop tanks, the first P47 variant capable of mounting drop tanks under it's wings along with one centerline on it's fuselage was the P47D-15, the 56th Fighter Group received their first D-15's in the spring of 1943, a full 6 months before the infamous Black Thursday raid on Schweinfert, but at that point unfortunately the Bomber Mafia Generals were still trying to prove their concept that the bombers didn't need escorts.
The Norden bombsight was indeed incredibly accurate, the problem is all you guys don't do the proper research, starting in the fall of 1943 the 8th Air Force started using the H2X radar for targeting through clouds instead of having the bombers return with their bombs, as you know the weather over Europe is often cloudy along with the Germans using smoke pots to obscure visibility, smoke from RAF bombers on the same target the night before and other factors caused the 8th Air Force's bombers to use the far less accurate H2X quite often but all you guys always want to blame every bomb that missed it's target on the Norden bombsight, reports clearly show that bombs dropped optically with the Norden bombsight hit their targets the vast majority of the time, watch the videos from a channel called "WW II US Bombers" to see these reports in his videos concerning the myths that the Norden bombsight was supposedly inaccurate.
@@dukecraig2402 Except the problems with the Norden bomb sight were clearly shown both before and after the war in a number of papers and articles, some of which were undertaken by the USAAF itself. Indeed, the Norden Bombsight was not in fact the best bombsight in the US at the time, there was a better system built by a rival company that got virtually no mention because Norden won the PR campaign. Virtually ALL the 'data' of the Norden Bombsights superlative accuracy over other bombsights of the era were provided by Norden. They were based on tests flown in perfect conditions, at lower altitudes than the bombers actually flew in combat, at lower speeds, and as such did not in anyway reflect the bombsights accuracy in real wartime conditions.
It was not a BAD bombsight, but it was no better than any other bombsight at the time. Had it been so much superior the Germans would have copied it as they captured a number of examples from downed USAAF bombers. While there is evidence that they tested it, there is absolutely no evidence to indicate that they were considering copying the Norden to replace their own existing bombsight.
Fact is the USAAF pinpoint bombing campaign is a myth. No air force, no matter which nation you are talking about, was capable of high altitude precision level bombing in WWII. The technology simply was not there, not in the weapons, not in the guidance systems, and not in the targeting systems. They WERE capable of precision LOW altitude precision (relatively) bombing, as shown by some of the Mosquito raids, but not high altitude. And for most bombers, the Mosquito being an obvious exception, low altitude level bombing was suicidal, whether at night or during the day.
This is shown most clearly by the USAAF's bombing of Japan. They started off trying to use high altitude precision bombing, and gave it up within months. They moved to a high altitude carpet bombing strategy, and the evidence for this lies in their bomb loads. They moved from a very high percentage of high explosive munitions to dropping a bomb load that contained a very high proportion of incendiary weapons. If you look at the bomb loads of the USAAF bombers in the European Theatre you see EXACTLY the same progression when it comes to bomb loads. Moving from a primarily HE loadout to a more Incendiary loadout. You use an Incendiary loadout for carpet bombing of cities, NOT precision bombing missions.
Lack of range of British Spitfires initially
No other British fighter was offered as a daylight escort as they didn’t posses such a machine
@@dukecraig2402 I seem to recall seeing that video .... I don't think his conclusion is that the Norden bombsight was as good as you claim, from operational altitudes under combat conditions. Maybe low altitude it was ok, but I'd like to see a vid that details the allied bombsight for comparison. "pickle barrel" bombing is the myth here.
Also the bomber formations all released their bombs at the same time as the lead bomb aimer, which in itself leads to inaccuracy and bomb creep.
Never once have I heard anyone question the bravery of bomber command
Like I said, I did a double take when I read the comments.
Sadly it happens, it's very rare but social media has some very strange people using it.
Very well said! Regarding the Americans the coward General Mark Clarke springs to mind in Italy, The RAF needing to paint black and white stripes on their Camouflaged aircraft, I think the saying, the kettle calling the pot black seems relevant. All the very best, 👍👍👍👊✌️🇬🇧.
I question the bravery of the British leadership. They made Scots, and commonwealth have the hardest raids
@@williamallencrowder361 Any evidence for this? Because it seems many hard raids were undertaken by everyone.
My father Tom was a Lancaster Tailgunner in RAF101 Squadron. A year before he died, I took him to the Lanc at MOTAT Museum Auckland NZ. He met the granddaughter of the designer of his rare Rose Brothers 0.5cal turret on his 2nd Lanc. She asked "what was the scariest thing experienced, flying through flack?" He replied, "it was entering THAT door, all my crew turned right, I alone turned left and I knew their lives where in my hands.' I missed this as I was in the pilots seat, talking to the son of a Lanc skipper. He said the scariest thing about the bomb run was not the long steady run in, but the 30+ full seconds you had to stay in straight, level fixed speed flight AFTER you dropped your bombs, even if a search light had found you. Only then could your fixed angle camera take it's picture of your bombs exploding on or off target. Without that photo, the raid did not count against the whole crew's 30 flights for a tour. Brave doesn't cover it.
I remember that particular bomber, I passed it twice every day on my way to school and work for ten years. Used to be in front of the museum just behind the fence by the main road. It sparked my interest in the RAF and RNZAF.
There are no cowards in combat, politicians are the cowards, not the men and women who serve.
Amen 🙏
No doubt about it. The late Harry Patch had the right philosophy about it.
Thank you for your comment
@@commandingjudgedredd1841
When it is a maniac like Adolf Hitler, sometimes it takes more than a 'slanging
match' between politicians to settle things.
But the video is about the brits..... dropped their guns at Dunkirk and ran away, excuted POWs in Falklands War and dragged unarmed men into the street and excuted them due to their religion in NI.... that is not only cowardly but war crimes.
I can imagine that a night mission would be more terrifying than a daylight one. In any case, none of us flew those missions, and we have no right to denegrate those who did.
Agree, it was Truly a hell on earth/skies to fly into those Deadly 88's artillery.
I had an old friend who was a tail gunner in Halifax bombers through the war, and the bravery of being in the rear turret knowing that you were going down with the plane if anything happened, is incredible.
I have the utmost respect for all of the men that fought in WWII, several of my teachers at primary school were ex RAF and I have relatives who were Army and Royal Navy during WWII, they ALL played their parts. Ordinary blokes doing extraordinary things
Respect.
Respect for murders ? The bombers primarily hit civilians. The British bomber command and bomber harry is specifically known for killing civilians-
There is no honor in that.
This honor talk needs to stop.
No matter if you are German Russian American British …
I rather think ground soldiers were in a meat grinder and fought each other
War is hell
The Chair Force is amazing, key board generals. The Brits decision to fly mostly night mission was the correct strategic decision for them at the time.
Well said that man
You're absolutely right. People often overlook the fact that the RAF tried precision bombing at the beginning of the war, and found that they accomplished very little, at a prohibitive cost to themselves. Before 1944, the choice was really between area bombing, or no bombing at all. The latter was never really an option since Stalin was pushing the allies for a second front, to take the pressure off of the Soviet Union and her people who were suffering unimaginably at the time.
Considering they couldn't defend themselves with pre WW1 infantry caliber rounds, yes.
"The Chair Forcs" what a great line!
The Brits decision was pragmatic and correct, as was the US decision for daylight bombing. And both together proved an effective strategy - at least once full fighter escort became available. Then you could bomb them to hell for 24 hours straight...
@@Mike-eq4ky The Americans knew they were playing the attrition game. This is why they continued the daylight missions even with 50-60% attrition on missions. They knew they had the “bodies” and manufacturing that would out last the Germans. It’s an ugly truth that would not be tolerated today. But in the 1940’s, they did what had to be done in order to end the war as soon as possible.
Anyone at all who ever got into any aircraft to fly over and attack Germany during WW2 was a hero, British or American!
well said
Hero maybe not but certainly brave with a brass set.
@@fawnlliebowitz1772 With a big Apple Sack.
We use the term “hero” far too lightly these days.
One of those airmen was an uncle of mine.
40 trips, the latter part in Lancs. In dark and in daylight. Some narrow squeaks, but brought his crew home every time. Four DFCs in the one crew. Mixed nationalities all in the RAF.
Than all germans who bombed britains are Heros too, because bombs are Not evil?
My Father piloted 39 missions in 24s with the 8th, and was awarded the DFC and Air Medal (twice). As a kid, I made many plastic models and asked him about a lot of details about the Brits vs. 8th. He was not very conversive only saying "we had different jobs to do". He had great respect for the RAF as well as for the Luftwaffe.
What a polite way of telling those commenters to learn a little more and show some respect.
Thanks Ben
It should be noted that the Germans also abandoned day time bomb early in the war due to their losses sustained over Britain.
And they had fighter cover. I suspect the US might have found things different had the Luftwaffe not been reduced in strength and also been busy on the Eastern Front.
@@grahvis The Luftwaffe presence on the Eastern Front has been somewhat over hyped. When it came to their air assets the deployment was very much the opposite to their ground assets. in other words while the German Army deployed some 70 - 75% of its forces on the Eastern Front, with the Luftwaffe they deployed about the same proportion on the WESTERN Front, simply because the air threat from the Western Allies was so much higher than from the Soviets.
Certainly having to base a fairly high proportion of their air assets to the East is an issue for them, (because 25% is a significant proportion), it does not change the fact that most of the Luftwaffe's attention was focussed West, not East.
@@grahvis In 1944 Germany produced more aircraft than Britain by a wide margin.
The Luftwaffe was never equipped for long-range strategic bombing. The Luftwaffe was designed for Blitzkrieg, more tactical in nature. WWII broke out too early for their strategic bomber force to be developed... but they had some interesting designs on the table.
@@nickdanger3802 yes but that's a one outlier, and it's close in 1939 but in the rest of the years Britain beats German by sometimes nearly double the numbers. Overall Britain produced more throughout the war by roughly 10 thousand.
One outlier doesn't indicate much besides Germany throwing everything it had at aircraft production at that year where Britain's more constant and consistent lead show's a better handle on the mass production of aircraft where as Germany seemed to have only really got the hang of it in 1943 into 1944 before falling off in 1945.
There’s a joke that was told by troops advancing on the ground in 1944: “When the luftwaffer fly over the allies take cover; when the RAF fly over the Germans take cover; and when the 8th Air Force flies over… everyone takes cover”
I have heard the same quite attributed to the Germans infantry "When we bomb, the British duck, when they bomb we duck, and when the Americans bomb everyone ducks."
Gen. Leslie McNair, killed by US bombs, was the highest ranking us casualty. Rommel, the highest ranking German casualty was killed by German political thugs.
This still applies today. Yanks have always been gung-ho. If it moves shoot it, ask questions later
Yes.... with the fighter opposition, the US bombing was erratic to say the least....
@@KathrynLiz1 yet the US managed to knock Rommel out of the war, and shut down ballbearing production for months.
When my wife started work in a Bank back in 1968 her Manager was an ex RAF pilot. He had trained in a class of 24 and had been bitterly disappointed when he was washed out for multi engine bombers and relegated (as he felt) to Transport Command. At the end of the war he was the only one left alive of the entire class.
My father tried very hard to get onto aircrew. He wanted to be a Lancaster tail gunner. He was underage and found out. When he eventually got into the forces, right near the end of the war, he failed the eyesight test and never flew. He was bitterly disappointed- but lived until earlier this year….
Was he still annoyed at not being dead, like the rest of his class?
@@SAHBfan Luckily for him, he didn't get the chance t to be a tail gunner in a Lanc. Or you might not be here to tell the tale!
My father was a Lancaster pilot during the war. He never forgave Harris and Bomber Command for what they put him through and emigrated to Canada soon after the war, even going so far as to become a Canadian citizen (a very big deal if you know about the special status a British passport once had in the Commonwealth). One of the stories I dragged out of him was his recounting of the dining hall, where the entire Group's aircrew ate together (roughly a thousand all told). The Group's senior officers sat facing the crews on an elevated stage, with the most senior crews in the front and the most junior at the rear. After every mission you'd move up as crews were lost (or finished their tours) and new crews came in to replace them. It only took him half a tour to get to sit at a table facing the senior officers. Work out the odds of surviving a tour from that... it's not good.
@@dscott6629 May I respond, and pay full tribute to your father's service?
It was always a very high risk undertaking to put 1000 bombers over a target, even one as large as a city, often in bad weather and with uncertain navigation instruments. There were few 'easy' targets and huge efforts were made to minimise losses, though of course major errors were made, with the benefit of hindsight.
Two of Harris's three major operations were successes - the Battle of the Ruhr and the Battle of Hamburg. The Berlin campaign is not considered a success though the city by that time often produced 40% of many vital war material and couldn't be ignored.
The fact is the big strategic errors by the Germans: removing nearly all the Luftwaffe from the East and western fronts, and its vital 88 AA guns, and its small calibre AA guns (35,000) which were greatly feared by Allied infantry; and finally, the V weapons programme were all taken in 1943 - nearly all by the RAF Bomber Command - long before the USAAF became a mighty destructive force. The RAF and USAAF made crucial contributions in bombing Italy out of the war, and the Balkans, and in targeting German front line forces in Normandy - which opened the way for Allied ground forces.
It was often claimed that the USAAF could bomb more accurately in daylight, but the usual cloud cover over Europe negated any advantage they might have claimed. As for bravery, the RAF crews knew the odds were against them completing a tour, but still got in their planes to face the flak and the night fighters. On completing a tour of 30 flights, they would have a break and then embark on a second or third. The US tour was only 25 missions, then they went home. The only branch of service that suffered heavier % losses than RAF bomber command was the German u boat arm. I take my hat off to them.
Yeah, so much for flying at night.
Even with good visibility, entire formations typically bombed on a single lead bomdardiers targeting - ensuring that every bomb fell within a couple of miles of the proverbial pickle barrel. Kind of 'precision carpet bombing'.
@Retired Bore The problem, the B17 and B24 ended up bombing from higher than initially envisioned which rendered the Norden far less accurate in training and practice. Of course, its vaunted accuracy was based on peace time tests with the bombers able to fly nice level bomb runs at the best height.
@Retired Bore
B-17 Combat Bombing Accuracy, Operational Data
czcams.com/video/Y7V56Y_VwYI/video.html
Hosted a U boat Captain's daughter after the war. My father instructor and mossie recce pilot became very firm friends. I listened to their stories as a youngster with awe. No facism just called up to do their duty. Respect especially from my uncle who was depth charging them from Sunderlands.
I have read many autobiographies of both RAF and US Bomber crews and have great admiration for them all. I would say both tactics were valid. Both forces fought to their own strengths and abilities and both faced death, be it alone in the dark, or amongst friends in the light. All the books I have read had one thing in common though. The horror and outright terror of war, and the terrible waste of young lives, given freely in the name of good. They should all be remembered, no matter where they came from.
Well said.
Well said. That just about sums it up.
thank you for that
British did both night and day raids throughout the war. some of the most famous raids were daylight raids. Turpitz, Gestapo prison. dropping earth quake bombs on bridges.
Tirpitz and Gestapo were not strategic bombing. RAF heavies did not bomb in daylight from Aug 42 to May 44.
Operation Oyster is a forgotten raid taking place even before the Dam busters, as well as the Mosquitos that dropped bombs on a radio station in Berlin that Goering was going to broadcast from.
@@AdventureswithTrains Oslo Mosquito Raid Although the raid had failed to achieve its main objective, it was considered dramatic enough to be used to reveal the existence of the Mosquito to the British public.
@@AdventureswithTrains The RAF began Operation Carthage on March 21st 1945 but one of the fighters was damaged and crash-landed near Catholic school the Institut Jeanne d’Arc.
Mistakenly, two aircraft that were part of the second wave believed the crash to be their target, and bombs were dropped on the school.
86 children and 16 adults lost their lives in the bombing, 35 adults were also injured. The site now houses apartments but a monument serves as a reminder of the tragedy.
@@nickdanger3802 I would take that as evidence that the accurate bombing raids such as Op Chastise and Jerico were not the norm, more of a rareity. It is only smart bombs guided with lasers that allows pin point accuracy. But even then, if the wrong target is selected, it can go terribly wrong through human error.
Strange the comments from people focus on the ethics of night bombing, which was the primary time for the USAAF's bombing of Tokyo especially the firebombing attacks during Operation Meetinghouse, and criticizing Bomber Command in Europe for it. Perhaps they didn't get the memo on that one.
thats because when the "cowardly" british firebombed Dresden, they're a bunch of child murderers and war crime commiters.
but when the "brave and dashing" americans napalmed tokyo, it was a strategic military target
@@thomashambly3718 would be interesting if you said that to any of the 250000 young men who flew the raids.
@@thomashambly3718 after the 1st British raid came the American raid. And as for a war crime, that's not as clear cut as you think. There was no internationally agreed standard for aerial warfare as there were for both land and sea warfare, making it harder to be definitive on whether ir mot bombing cities was a war crime. If we accept the rules for land warfare apply to aerial bombing then it is legal to bomb any city that is defended by even a single AA gun in line with rules for land warfare.
@@thomashambly3718 It's almost entirely forgotten that the USAAF took part in the joint Dresden campaign.
Agreed.
The Axis only had to fly from France to get here.
The RAF had to fly over other countries to get to Germany.
Occupied countries full of AA defences and fighter bases.
@@quietudinal4857 Dead right. The Luftwaffe failed to do what the RAF achieved in 1940.
I'm from New Zealand ... we lost a lot of young men in the RAF... my father lost 2 cousins..apparently 1 taking off and the other landing. The losses were huge . All those aircrew both RAF and 8th airforce...were brave men. You only have to watch the films taken of the real action up there. Thank them all.
The only time more dangerous than taking off, with the planes loaded to max weight with fuel and bombs, was when they were over target.
Your flying at 30,000 ft in the pitch black in freezing temperatures. The day light raids weren't going anywhere. We lost nearly half are men. We weren't cowards.
Well said.
I find the implication insulting!
most bomber command raids were carried out at between 15-20,000ft depending on the aircraft, Stirling's tended to be at the bottom Halifax's in the middle and Lancaster's above speeds varied as well often the crews didnt see another bomber until it was shot down
@@davedixon2068 Thanks Dave apologies for the mistake re altitude. I just wanted to get my point across.
@@1942Johnnyred no rebuke intended totally agree with your overall point
I would have been terrified flying at night let alone during the day.
These young men are all heroes. I suppose the sky is a big place by day, and even bigger at night.
Lest we forget.
The Luftwaffe did not get on too well during the day either.
I live in Bomber county UK, it the thanks to these brave men on our bases of all nations,that i can write this and i thank them
I wear a lancaster bomber pin with pride. They completed each other. They did what needed to be done. I have the greatest respect for all.
Many RAF missions were mine laying. My uncle was lost on such a mission as a Stirling pilot along with the rest of his crew from 75 squadron
we will remember them
May his soul be at peace in heaven.
I've listened to and watched many, many documentaries over the decades and I think you have done a fine job of illuminating the thinking and rationale of those in charge of the air forces of both Britain and the United States. I never questioned the valor or courage of Allied forces. They did the best they knew how with the equipment and materials at hand. God bless all of our armed forces and those who gave all for the cause of righteousness.
What a wonderful history lesson. When I was in the Air Cadets in the 1970s, our squadron had two veterans of Bomber Command who would often visit and give talks. I remember this very subject arising and one of the veterans had said 'The Yanks weren't trained for night operations and so they took the day job'. Brief but accurate statement it seems.
Thanks Peter
@@CalibanRising When the bombing of civilian targets in WWII crops up, It's Britain and 'terror bombing' but it ignores the USAAF's bombing in the same campaign and that of the fire bombing of Japan, not including the A-bombing. If anyone want's to know about the worst aspects of killing civilians, that is the place to look.
@@paulbantick8266 an excellent point
@@CalibanRising Not forgetting that the USAAF developed napalm /specifically/ for that purpose as they knew it would stick to the wooden Japanese housing.
@@julianmhall Then supplied it to the RAF because it was more effective.
The acclaimed series 'The World at War' stated that as long as US raids weren't too large and didn't penetrate too far then losses could be sustained. However operations such as Schwienfurt and Ragensburg showed that daylight missions took an exorbitant toll, and that presumably this would continue until a proper long-range escort could be provided. This came from the horses mouth, i.e a senior US army air force commander "You didn't carry on with such things". To me that means that the situation was unsustainable long-term, even for the United States...just as it had been for the British.
They were still operating under a US prewar air power doctrine that the bombers could protect themselves. While they did a better job of defending themselves than the British bombers could, daylight bombing was not fully successful until the advent of proper fighter protection... 38's, then 47's, then 51's. British fighters were designed primarily for defensive operations and had much shorter range.
@@Mike-eq4ky I concur, as you say, British fighters had been built with defence of the UK in mind. During the 1930s I suppose it was assumed that seeing how bombers would always get through escorts weren't needed, especially as (due to civilian development) they tended to be faster anyway. Therefore I guess the thinking was that one has bombers to attack the enemies infrastructure and fighters to shoot them down. It's just as well really, because it resulted in the Luftwaffe not having a decent long-range escort either, thankfully no strategic bomber force either. Both these shortcomings came to light during the Battle of Britain.
@@rob5944 It's actually interesting that all the US Army Air Corp fighters whose specifications were issued before, say, 1942 or so (I'd need to check to be clear) were created for the "interceptor" role. The US had somewhat different strategic defense needs than the UK did prior to the war and what was envisioned were incoming high-altitude high speed bombers that needed to be countered.
So Specs were issued that resulted in the likes of the P38 or P47 which were fast to climb, high altitude capable, etc. It wasn't until there was a recognized wartime need to the "escort fighter" role with enough range to get the target and back - both in the ETO and PTO's - that the US developed specifically for this role. It took some really bad wartime beatings for the strategists precious prewar air power theories to be discarded in favor of new combat realities in different theatres of operations. But all sides wound up adapting and the US had the edge because of our manufacturing might and geographic isolation from the conflict - nobody was bombing our factories during wartime production!
The Germans had the strategic thinking problems as well, except they had been engaged in conflict since the Spanish Civil war in the late 30's which led to the development of the ME109. They didn't have the time to develop as many aircraft types and get them into combat quickly enough. That said - they dropped the ball on strategic bombing, relying too much on planning for a short war then failing to see the resolve of Great Britain. They certainly were unprepared for Barbarosa, and any invasion of UK, from an air or sea power perspective. They couldn't strategically bomb the Russians, only tactical dive bombing attacks on armored troops.
That was a good series, with Lawrence Olivier narrating.
@@robanderson473 yes, I tend to set quite a bit of store by it. Rightly or wrongly.
Anyone who went over or to the front during that war is a hero. Even the pilots that towed the glides to Normandy who released their glider to early, I give them total respect because I've never been in battle. Can't imagine what it would be like.
my Father was a fighter pilot in the RCAF, and I grew up on airbases manned by many vets after the war. if you live in that community, you are quickly aware that no one survives battle unscathed - physically or mentally. yet, they went back time and time again knowing the odds were shortening. I recognize now that what we moderns call PTSD was an infestation among WW2 aircrew, including my Father. I will never be able to imagine the courage it took to go up time after time, viewing the carnage all around you. as they said in the time, Bless 'em All - of every nation. aircrew were not politicians, just young men acting out of patriotism and love of country
@@coldlakealta4043 AND coercion. Conscription was immediate in Britain.
@@coldlakealta4043 They didn't have a choice. This "patriotism & love of country" shit is getting old.
@@donaldhoult7713 not everyone was conscripted. My dad was studying architecture, a reserved occupation, so wasn't conscripted. He volunteered in Jan 1940, expected to join REME, ended up in infantry, got diptheria and then put in RASC - rearguard at Dunkirk and POW for 5 yrs including death march from Lambsdorf.
How can you call any off those brave young lads cowards
200% agree
Pretty easy for the RAF - who would throw you oct due to 'Lack of Moral Fibre ' if you refused to fly😉🥴👎
My Grandfather served in 433 Squadron, 6 Group, on Halifax bombers as a Navigator.
Thank you for making this video to dispel some of the more emotive arguments made about this campaign.
Of the 55 000 crews killed in the bomber command 10 000 were canadian and 4000 were australian.
True. Bomber Command was an international force.
Don't forget the Kiwis.
R.I.P to them all. Many were volunteers.
We need to remember Germany set the s Standard for night bombing
There were a few Americans in the RAF. I think the Commonwealth troops were great. Canadians suffered a massacre around D Day but went on to pummel a top panzer division, sending them back with their tails between their legs.
My take on this was that the two forces played to the strengths (real or imagined) of the time. The British couldn't sustain the losses of daylight raids and the Americans believed they could. The British thought they could be accurate at night while the Americans thought they could be more accurate in the daylight. The combination of both was the irresistible force that cracked the armor that led to victory.
For years people badmouthed the Bomber offensive, Speer himself admitted that Germany came close to cracking as for area bombing the Germans,Italians and Japanese pioneered it and baby killing has been a feature of every war, thats why if we had any sense we would not have them.
The British like the Germans knew tat unescorted bombing wasn't a good idea, the US didn't like good advice and in 1942 learnt that the Germans and Britih were correct buut the US had no escort fighters so for over a year the Spitfire was the main escort figter for the USAAF.
RAF night bombing became more accurate while USAAF day bombing didn't meaning that the hardest targets were mostly taken by the RAF, some targets were not suitable for night bombing so the RAF also carried out daylight raids, some of which were escorted by long range Spitfires.
My dad's squadron, 50 squadron which was based in Skellingthorpe with 61 squadron, which was on the outskirts of modern Lincloln, bombed mainly strategic military targets. The first raid was Gelsenkirchen according to the records I have seen.
My wife's uncle was a navigator with the dam busters....shot down over Belsen, buried in a German cemetary.
Ah, back in the early 1970's, I was stationed at RAF Digby (one of the many airfields around Lincolnshire) and temporarily lived in Married Quarters at the old airfield at Birchwood (Skellingthorpe), because new Quarters were being built at Digby, so had a crew coach to take us to Digby and then back to Birchwood for shifts every day.. We also had a NAAFI there and the Manager was and ex Japanese POW, but surprisingly didn't talk about his time in captivity in their 'loving' care....
Anyway I an a mate who lived next door spent a lot of time with your young kids exploring the airfield, the old buildings and the rifle range, digging out spend ammo out of the sand, for Souvenir's, and a great place for taking his dog for a walk too. We had to pack that in, because of the Gypo dogs roaming about, and didn't trust them being near our young kids. It got spoilt a a lot when a herd of Gypo's, Landrovers, caravans etc., turned up one day to camp there, and used an old Dormobile tipped on its side as a toilet on the grass very near the road opposite our row of houses.....what fun.
Usually the women would come over and bang on our doors to try and flog us heather or something, or fill up something like a Jerry can to fill up with water, or other scrounges. Not too long, after about 2-3 months, after they turned up the Council came out to get shot of them, and once gone, dug a quite deep trench on the edge of the airfield side of the road, so that vehicles couldn't drive over the the old airfield any more, so happiness returned back to our 'play ground'. Then later of course we had some transport to come and get all our belongings to take us back over to Digby to take over our new Quarters, after about a year living there. I rather liked living there because it was just Married Quarters and the NAAFI, and no other buildings, so hands in pockets in uniform didn't matter as no one around to start yelling etc......So a bit of a shock when back in a Camp with lots of authority about, but we got used to it....😀
Happy days.....
Most of the base has now gone , Lincolnshire a base every few miles away
@@kevincook2591
Yes, and there was so many bases around Lincoln that seemed you get around to all of of them via taxi ways! It was the joke of the time...To get to Digby we passed Waddington and see see a V Bomber parked up near the main road, and what a sight they were.....I guess there are quite a few abandoned bases now....
@@kevincook2591 Skellingthorpe was one of 5 group's bases in WW2. It had Lancaster bombers.
My cousin, Jack Stewart Coster, was the bomb-aimer in a 97 Squadron Lancaster, who were target markers for 5 Group. The crew were basically all Australian (as usual, the Flight Engineer was British), and mostly from the state of Victoria. The whole crew went missing on 21 March, 1945 (basically 6 weeks prior to the European war's end) in an attack on the oil refinery in Bohlen, Germany, near Leipzig. They are still missing, having never been reported as found.
That's sad to read mate. My great uncle was never found after his company was destroyed in WW1 and my grandad has no known grave in Burma being posted as missing in action in February 1945.
RIP…
I have a great-Uncle with no known grave in the Dardanelles.
The Uncle who flew with Bomber Command, made it back.
Years ago in Brisbane I worked with a Australian bloke who had been a bombardier in the RAAF. He said that sometimes the only way they could get the rear gunners out of the aircraft when they returned was to hose them out. The German pilots used to go for them first. He also said "I've got a lot of respect for Jerry!".
My dad was on that op to Bohlen in QR-X, 61 Squadron, he was the rear gunner.
After the war in Europe ended he transferred to 83 Squadron in Coningsby.
His pilot at Skellingthorpe was a New Zealander and must've gone home shortly after VE day.
My dad rarely mentioned the war and couldn't remember the new crew's name at Coningsby.
There must've been 1000's of Commonwealth aircrew.
My mother who was in the WAAF said she saw an airman with a Falklands Isle shoulder flash and wondered if it was a remote Scottish Island even though she herself was Scottish.
Coningsby was where my parents met and married nearlby
@@larryjenkinson4789 Glad to hear about your father. Jack's crew were in OF-C, PA973.
There were definitely 1000's of Empire/Commonwealth aircrew: Canada had an entire Group (4 Group) - although the aircrew were probably not wholly Canadian.
Australia had 3 Lancaster squadrons (460, 463, and 467), 1 Halifax (466), 2 Mosquito (456 and 464), 2 Sunderland (10 and 461) as well as others, mainly fighters in the Middle East and Italy. Not all aircrews in those squadrons were Australian, and there were hundreds of "odd bods" spread across British and other Commonwealth squadrons. WW2 was a maximum effort enterprise that worked, fortunately.
In my honest opinion there were NO cowards in either the RAF OR THE 8TH Bomber commands, the courage of all flight crews is magnificent as proven time and time again I am 73yrs old and thank all flight crews ground crews with all my heart xx.
In one of my books on the subject I'm sure I read something along the line of "the RAF did precision bombing of area targets while the USAAF did area bombing of precision targets". Whatever is true, I doff my hat to each and every one of them. I can never imagine what it would have been like to fly in the bombing campaign, and it is thanks to them that I never will.
Yes quite - the 8 or so 500 pound bombs dropped by a B17 would land in a line between the landing point of the first and last bomb, the length of several football pitches. And when you consider the fact that the entire formation would drop at the same time that is a very large area getting malleted.
It's somewhere in Tail-End Charlies which I am reading now. I can't re-find it on a quick skim unfortunately.
Gen Eaker told his Churchill story in detail to my 1975 USAF Squadron Officer School class. He said his clinching argument was "around the clock" bombing.One of the highlights of my USAF career was his lecture.
My father flew a B-17 out of Italy during WWII. Rules in effect at that time meant he had to fly more than 25 missions to accumulate 50 points, at which time he would be excused from combat and be sent home. Bombing 'easier' targets would earn him a single point each. More risky targets, like Ploesti, Rumania, were two-point missions. It's true that our bombers suffered horrific losses early on. Ploesti, for example, cost the attacking force up to 20 percent losses. Not all airmen downed died. Many were captured and imprisoned until their prison camps were liberated. The statistical fact was that if we lost 100 B-17s out of a raiding force of 1,000 bombers, we lost 1,000 men died or captured (10 per aircraft)! The problem was the fighter aircraft ranges, which were at first inadequate to supply a bombing raid with enough fighter aircraft in support of the raid all the way to and from Berlin. With the advent of the P47, the P51 and the P38 with augmented fuel supplies enabled the U.S. fighters to support the B-17s all the way to Berlin and back. At that point, Spitfires and Hurricanes still lacked the range to support daylight bombing. Their lack of sufficient range was a large factor in switching the RAF attacks on the Reich to night raids. The prewar thought in both the U.S. and U.K. was that the bomber would always get through, which was true in WWI but not in WWII. The advantage of day bombing with the U.S Norden bomb sight was the resultant higher accuracy (in clear weather) damaged Third Reich war-making capability more than the British night time area bombing campaign could. The U.S. could put more bombs where they were effective against war production than the British could at night. We bulled our way through, absorbing terrible losses in the short term but winning through once escort fighters were made more effective at protecting the B-17s and B-24s after 1942. My father flew his B-17 in late '43 and into '44. He told me his aircraft was never hit hard enough to bring it down and credited the Mustangs and Lightnings (and luck) with getting them through.
I read a book called Six Weeks of Blenheim Summer by Alistair Panton. He was a pilot of a Blenheim bomber in 1940 during the Battle of France. His squadron tried to carry our daylight bombing raids and were ripped to pieces. He describes three or four lucky escapes, which is a common theme in war memoirs. Nearly all his comrades were killed. Even his squadron's ground crew died when their ship was sunk. At the time army and navy servicemen did not know the danger aircrew were facing. This was before Churchill's The Few speech. He recalled how a soldier had ripped into the RAF for not pulling their weight, although he changed his tune when the author put him right.
Thanks for the recommend. Great find.
I've read that three times now, it's a fantastic book
Casualties suffered by Bomber Command crews during the BoB were greater than losses suffered by Fighter Command. Daylight raids against German barges in French ports, and so on.
@@raypurchase801 Reading about the bridges at Maastricht is enough to make anyone pause for thought
@@colderwar Definitely. I read an account which claimed the raid was first offered to the French air force. The French squadron commanders took one look at the risks and refused to go. Hence the raid being passed to the RAF.
The casualty rates of both bomber squadrons speaks for itself.
After Bomber Command obtained an effective pathfinder (e.g. the de Havilland Mosquito) in 1943, the accuracy of nighttime bombing improved in a BIG way.
There was no way to worsen the RAF`s accuracy
And of course the Mozzie Itself was capable of pinpoint accuracy - the raid on on a Gestapo HQ to free prisoners, the sinking of the Tirpitz with a 4000 lb bomb (same bomb load as a Flying Fort)
he famous Dambuster
Raids- all without a Norden bomb sight ór a 🥒 barrel...
@@paulberry6016, the Mozzie is by far my favorite aircraft of WWII. It was pure genius. And it's pinpoint accurate bombing was only one of its strong points too. Such an incredibly versatile aircraft.
One of my favorite Mozzie stories was of flight returning from an aborted bombing mission in Denmark in April 1945. There were about 30 of them vectoring over Scotland, and their P-51 escorts had split off home 30 minutes earlier. After reaching the coast they just happened to spot what turned out to be Germany's last bombing run of the war (which originated from Norway)...18 bombers, mostly JU 88s. The Mosquitoes immediately jumped into their fighter aircraft roles and were all over the JU 88s in seconds...shooting down 9 of them, with no losses of their own. I still think the Mozzie was the deadliest aircraft of WWII...and in so many different ways.
@@michaelpielorz9283 There was, they could have adopted the US Norden bob sight and US bobing procedure and carried out so called precissionn bombig
Very easy for Americans to accuse RAF veterans of burning babies. They never tasted bombing on their own doorstep. Whenever I go into town I see the shrapnel damage from the Luftwaffe's 'Good Friday raid ' on Bristol, which devastated the homes of thousands of civilians. Unfortunately in a war of national survival you do anything to win, which, to our credit, we fought far more humanely than our enemies. The strategic bombing offensive saved lives on both sides by shortening the war but it was even acknowledged by British commanders that the USAAF was crucial by ultimately destroying the Luftwaffe's fighter defence. Ultimately it was a synergistic campaign with bomber command and the 8th air force both working together to defeat an evil enemy.
Have studied this topic with great interest,
The bravey and courage of these young men deserve utmost respect!
As an aside RAF Bomber Command did not leave the idea of daytime bombing completely. They used for example the fast Mosquito at day time. But this was more like surgical raid using only a few planes in each mission. Not comparable to the RAF Bomber Command night missions on Germany at all. And a total different story
Mosquitoes were also used as pathfinders, using incendiaries to mark targets ahead of the main bomber formations.
@@valkyriedd5849 They used the Mosquito for almost everything in WW2. Included as a path finder. You are not wrong about that
The also used Blenheims, Bostons, Marylands, Baltimores, Venturas, Mitchells and Fortresses in daylight bombing missions thoughout the period. The UK had made the decision to not develop mediums after 1939 except those in development (Albemarle) and the abortive Buckingham, instead buying them from the USA. The mediums were the ones mostly tasked by the RAF for daylight use, being faster.
Exceptions are the Blenheim, which was a light bomber. It suffered savage losses up to 1942 at which point there were basically none left as production was tailed off, and the Boston used at night by 23 Squadron prior to getting its Mosquito F. IIs.
@@wbertie2604 2,302 heavy, 1,420 medium and 3,697 light bombers were Lend Leased to Britain. pages 1-2
Hyperwar Lend Lease shipments Army Air Forces
21 billion USD of Britain's LL was written off in 1945.
@@nickdanger3802 for context, that's about the same as production of the Lancaster (a small amount of which was post war) but doesn't include UK production of Blenheims and Mosquitos or Wellingtons and Whitleys or Hampdens. Technically, Whitleys were heavies. But in terms of types used, I'd estimate that about 2/3 of the RAF force was light or medium, although if you divided into more strategic versus tactical, probably 1/3. Not an insignificant amount.
My father mission list which I have , he was a co-pilot of a B-17, includes cities with major industries or railroad junctions. However, on his two trips to Berlin, the list just says Berlin. One of his aircraft was called, Blues in the Reich. A very appropriate name I should think.
Great video and accurate commentary from all of my reading.
Don't confuse cowardice with prudence. Cowardice is the mechanism of self-preservation exerting itself. Prudence is a calculated decision of results vs. expenditures. RAF Bomber Command had already absorbed considerable losses in men and material when with the USA entry sufficient mass was assembled to go on the offensive. Bomber Command just did not have the resources that the USA did and applied what they had in the most efficient manner. Additionally, this does not account for the round-the-clock defensive effort this forced on the Luftwaffe. Their pilots had to defend night and day - initially, they had squadrons specialized in night or day, but as losses mounted, both types were pressed into continual service that greatly fatigued pilots and ground crew making them less effective and contributing to making mistakes which lead to operational losses.
Bombing around the clock also stressed German civil defenses and the Germans' ability to repair bomb damage.
Bomber command did a sterling job the pilots and crews were beyond brave we have people like these hero’s to thank for our freedoms
Bomber Command suffered a casualty rate of 44.4% during WW2. Pretty close to a 50/50 survival chance. Who today would face such odds? I have nothing but great admiration for all the airmen who fought, US, U.K., Commonwealth, French, German or Japanese. They were all fighting for their own cause.
True
A worthy comment. War is horrible. Combat forces had no choice. Policy and targets were set by politicos and top brass, so don't go laying the blame for civilian attrition on crews who had no option. One side was as bad as the other.
Lets not forget the enormous manpower drain the flak batteries around Germany cities had during the bomber offensives for both day and night.
Even the Dambusters raid meant that the German army had to man and defend every significant dam in Germany for the rest of the war.
Many people forget about the support required to keep the Flak units firing and fighter defense operational , optical ordinance, range finder crews, mechanics searchlight battery's with their generator sets and civil defense .It all adds up to a large amount of ordinance not going to the front.
I recall reading estimates that something like 2 million men and a large number of 88 and 105mm high-velocity guns were kept in the heart of Germany, far from the front.
@@sailboat908 Thats about right with what I have read, not every factory was a large setup as in size. Many supporting industries as in the Britain as well where less than 20 people and in the city. Destroying these also impaired the war effort and the loss of skilled people.
Yes, every gun pointed at the sky would otherwise be pointed at a Soviet tank, if the Western Allies hadn't conducted the bombing campaign (or indeed, had made peace in 1940).
The Soviets and their descendents often overlook this.
A couple of points. (And it should be noted that I refer to the B17 & B24 Groups here, i.e. the "Strategic" bombers as opposed to the "Tactical" units)The USAAF did not achieve anything like the "precision" bombing they claim to have done. The Norden bombsight wasn't designed to work in the weather over Europe & a simple check shows that US Bomb Groups released their loads when the lead aircraft did. This alone blows the whole "precision" argument out of the water. Why? Consider the size of the formations. To achieve "precision" they would have to fly in line astern & each aircraft individually aim their payloads. This would preclude the mutually supporting defensive fire of the "combat box" which was needed to try and fend off attacking fighters. To say the USAAF didn't employ "area attacks" would be false. They simply had no choice. The difference was that the area being hit was more defined as the bombs fell in a specific pattern according to the formation & when the lead bombardier released his payload. This was the doctrine of the USAAF Heavy Bomber force.
Secondly - and as pointed out somewhat in the video - the RAF was a smaller force, even when you include air rew from the then Empire & Commonwealth. Australian & New Zealand had a war to fight on their own doorstep from December 1941 which greatly reduced the number of men sent to the UK. The same applies to ground forces. Not only that, consider the aircraft the RAF had in service in 1939 - 42. Predominantly twin engine "Medium" bombers like the Wellington, Whitley & Hampden, none of which had much in the way of defensive armament. The Short Stirling wasn't much better, having a very restrictive bomb bay & a short wingspan (from the specification that said it should be able to fit in hangers then in use) which severely restricted the service ceiling - it was unable to climb high enough to fly over the Alps/Dolomites on missions to Italy.
Then there is the question of accuracy achieved by Bomber Command at night. Until the Path Finder Force was formed it was, frankly, abysmal. But then you try navigating at night with the instruments they had before Gee, Oboe & H2S. Dead reckoning is hard in daylight. In the dark it's nigh on impossible. I've talked to Navigators from then, so I have a fairly good idea (I was lucky enough to do an Air Navigation course when I was an instructor with the Air Training Corps so I possibly have a slightly better understanding of what was required). Not only that, Bomber Command, with a few exceptions, didn't fly in formation, rather it was a stream with each aircraft making its own way along the planned route, so mutual support simply didn't exist. You were on your own. Once in the target area you then can't see a specific target like a factory - or even the town/city its in - so area attacks were the only alternative. Now, as for saying the RAF killed civilians (or as was said in the video little girls), I will point out that WW2 was a total war, everyone was considered a target. For the bleeding hearts I will also point out that the Nazi Luftwaffe had done the same thing, possibly even more cynically. Guernica. Warsaw. Rotterdam. Coventry. London. It's a long list. And let's not forget the V1 & V2 attacks. Nor the Holocaust & mass murders perpetrated by the Nazis. What RAF Bomber Command & the USAAF 8th Air Force did was through necessity.
Lastly I'll say this. Anyone, ANYONE, who says the aircrew of Bomber Command were cowards to my face (keyboard warriors don't count) had better be aware that my reaction will not be pleasant. You see, I have relatives I never got to know who died flying in Bomber Command. And I've been in a Lancaster so I know how small & cramped they are & how hard to was to get out of in a hurry. In the dark, likely out of control & on fire goes me shivers. To be in that position, knowing that failure to get out in time means death but still climbing aboard night after night, flying hundreds of miles? That's a special kind of courage, even though the aircrews would disagree.
And the aircrews of the USAAF 8th Air Force (The Mighty Eighth as it became known) were no less courageous.
I salute you all & stand in immense awe & respect of each & every one of you.
Per Ardua Ad Astra. Lest We Forget.
Thank-you, Mr. Parry. Well-written. Well-put.
Could not agree more well said.
I do not doubt the courage of either the US bomber Crews or the RAF crews. RAF started night bombing as soon as they realized that they did not have the right equipment/planes, nor the size to do daylight bombing, it was a logical choice.
What I do have an issue with is the moral justification of the RAF. You can compare it to first and second degree murder, one is deliberate and the other is by accident or circumstances. The americans targeted military targets and the Luftwaffe in the air and ground. They knew that they would hit civilian targets, but they were not the intended target, they were collateral damage.
The RAF deliberately went after civilians first and hoped that they hit a military target second because of the problems with aiming at night that was mentioned in the video. You can se this by their choice of bomb loads. The US did not as far as I know, use incendiary bombs in Europe. I know they did against japanese cities. The RAF deliberately tried to create firestorms, that would kill civilians and burn down their houses.
Just because the germans did bomb civilians, does not mean that the allies should do the same, its just petty revenge and does not serve a real purpose. As the Blitz proved, the people of London did not loose morale, or reduce production in any major way. The exact opposite happened, it strengthened the morale and was used as a recruiting tool. When you kill someone's family members, you just create more enemies.
The British had to know that the same would be the case for the german populations. I am sure that the brittish could have solved the problem with bombing with a higher degree of accuracy at night, if they had put real effort into it, but this was not a priority.
In terms of what motivated these volunteers to fly on night bombing missions can I recommend the book The Eighth Passenger by Miles Tripp.
@@haakonsteinsvaag It was total war,Britain was on the brink of defeat-and who dropped the nukes ?
Hi, thanks for this.
As one born in the 1950s, I am fascinated by all of this.
(Many of my friends in the playground and myself would do visual drawings of bombs dropping from bombers, and this was considered normal at this time; I think now you would have Social Services looking at this)
It is always easy with hindsight to see what should have been done.
I think there may be something to be said like;
‘Different Times, Different People’. and more importantly ‘Different Circumstances ‘
We were fighting for our life and ‘Way of Life’.
This was against the Nazis, and their inhuman ideology.
Thanks for watching Charles!
2:17 At the beginning of the war, that’s 1st September 1939 NOT 7th December 1942
Hitler declared war on the USA on 11 Dec 41 because FDR had been propping up Britain from 1939.
🛩"Was RAF Bomber Command Too Afraid To Fly Daylight Missions?" Of course not! Britain had limited resources of men and bombers, and night bombing was the only way to maintain a sustainable campaign.✈
I agree, it made sense at the time.
US war production was fracking mind-blowing. Mind. Blowing. Sure, everyone in Britain and Germany their part but without the US, it’s resources and literally world-beating production a whole lotta folks would be speaking German right now. Of course the Yanks worked in peace, protected by thousands of miles of oceans on either side. We built millions of tons of Materiel. Then we built the ships to get it over there. And produced the oil to fuel it all.
@@CorePathway Pity you joined two years late. You're lucky the war was still going, as the British had to fight it all on their own. A bit like the situation in Ukraine now.
@@sandgrownun66 oh, I take nothing from the courage of the Brits. But it wasn’t our war then, was it? Britain sent of the BEF because they knew they were next. America was never gonna be next, thanks to our blessed geography.
Maybe if we hadn’t joined WWI that peace may have been more equitable and Nazi-ism would have stayed fringe.
@@CorePathway Didn't you think that you'd get involved in the second one, the same as you did in the first? Although, you nearly waited until it was over in the first instalment. "America was never gonna be next, thanks to our blessed geography." America was next. Who declared war on the other first, Germany of the US? Yeah, you were just lucky that you had a big ocean on either side to protect your arses. Saying that the UK was defeated before you could be bothered to get involved? Then it was only because you forced Japan into war, because you'd strangled her access to natural resources, especially oil. If Germany had been victorious, you'd have been stuck with A H and his vile empire. There would have been no Britain, for you to launch an invasion to defeat him. And don't think that the oceans would have protected you forever. Germany was much more technologically advanced during WWII than the US, and it was only a matter of time before she came knocking on your door. Maybe with a nuclear tipped rocket. There was no way the US would have been able to build the bomb by 1945, if the British Tizard Mission, hadn't been around, to give you a kick up the arse.
Finally, as I said. Rommel was only a junior officer by the end of WW1, and of no consequence.
I recall reading that the second American attempt to break out from their Normandy landing zones was wrecked by the 8th Air Force bombing them. An attempted Canadian assault on Caen suffered a similar fate. During the Battle of the Bulge the 8th bombed Bastogne twice, despite being told that it was still held by the Yanks and contained civilians.
Source?
@@nickdanger3802 Can't remember the Bastogne one. I read it 40 or so years ago. I recall that the author was American. I think I still have the other book but my wife boxed up all my books for some reason. Now I am laid up in bed for the foreseeable future. My wife is working hard looking after me, the house, her mother and the cat. I cannot ask her to go rummaging for a book whose title I forget.
Flying at night meant high risks of collisions. A late friend was a Wellington tail gunner . He never saw german planes. All he saw was spot lights and explosions in the sky.
Skillful mathematics and Operational Research Section data gathered in the first years of the war showed that if 1,000 bombers passed over a target the size of a city in under 20 minutes, there would be one half of a collision.
That's statistics for you.
It happened, though.
If everyone stayed at their assigned height and timing, collision chances were reduced still further.
My dad served in bomber command he and his crew returned from a raid one of the ground crew said to them you chaps had a lucky escape he noticed a trailing ariel from a German aircraft was tangled up in the tailplane of their Halifax
Your friend was very fortunate apparently. My uncle told me that all of his school friends who were rear gunners were killed in action.
@@stevetheduck1425 The first 🇬🇧 1, 000 bomber raid ,was predicted to have 1 or 2? Collisions oer target & amazingly that was completely right!!!., 😂
@@alanjones6359 Whereas Fighter Aces like 'Sailor ' Malone were abl e to share Tactics, this doesn't seem to be the case with AGs. Our Top Tail gunner who Flew with Leonard Cheshire 🖊️✍️ a 📘 of of his experience with
One has to be mindful that British fighter command did provide the US airforces in Britain fighter support for cross channel bombing missions in daylight. The P 47s and P38 lightnings had limited range and capabilities for fighter cover and the P38 lightnings were eventually withdrawn to the Pacific where their long range could be used to better effect against the Japanese. It wasn't until the Merlin engine was installed by the British engineers to overcome high altitude performance issues that the P51 became the dominant daylight fighter and both the P51and P47 used long range drop fuel tanks to extend their range over Europe. Also Britain had been in the war for two and a quarter years and it was like almost 3 years into the war when the US army airforce was up to strength to attack Germany and occupied Europe. The US airforce had only training in daylight operations whereas like the Germans the British had to resort to cover of darkness to limit aircraft and aircrew losses. The effort to retrain and equip US army Airforces to operate at night would have been a considerable costly delay in wartime effort. However the early raids by US aiforces into Germany proved the British to be right that you needed long range fighter support for daylight operations on deep penetrative raids into Germany. One has to be mindful that the US raids depended on the weather and cloud situation encountered over Europe and daylight bombing precission raids ended up turning into area bombing to salvo their bombloads to return to England. One has to be mindful that the German efforts in combating night bombing raids with radar defences and radar controlled flak batteries as well as German night fighters were a considerable technical challenge and drain on the German war effort. These same defences were just as efficient against day bombing missions, more so in that the Luftwaffe fighters were more able to engage targets with larger formations of fighters. There were some viewpoints that the US day bombers were used like a bait used to attract the Luftwaffe fighters to engage in air to air combat with the escorting fighters. A similar senario was used by the Luftwaffe early on in the Battle of Britain in 1940 to bring the RAF up to fight and destroying it as a fighting force, but were not successful. The battle for control of the skies over Europe was an involved and costly enterprise with the usual see-saw effects of technical development and tactical strategies played out over time. No the British and Commonwealth aircrews like their US army airforce contemplates were not short of bravery or determination to engage the enemy. Unfortunately aerial battle seemed on the surface a cleaner way to wage war but as seen the losses in aircrews and aircraft were considerable. I think bomber command had the highest loss rate of all the British forces.
Spitfires often escorted the USAAF bombers on their first legs, allowing P-38s, etc. to fly optimal routes, climb profiles and speeds to them rendezvous with the bombers further into Europe and have the maximum amount of fuel available. Yes, the USAAF did and could do the first leg itself, but it freed up more USAAF aircraft for the long distance element.
A very even handed and interesting video, thank you. It must be remembered that when the RAF carried out daylight bombing raids in 1940, they were shot to pieces - Their aircraft early in the war were Hampdens, Battles, Blenheims, Wellingtons and Whitleys, all lightly armed and slow. They flew against Luftwaffe 109's/110's at the height of their powers with no proper fighter escort as the RAF had point defence interceptors but no dedicated escort aircraft.
Bomber command subsequently had medium/light bombers that did carry out precision daylight raids against the Germans, notably the Mosquito - A German pilot shooting one down was awarded 2 kills because they were so fast and difficult to catch up to. RAF strategy therefore was to send the heavies by night and use daylight raids for precision hits in an aircraft that could outrun the best the Luftwaffe could throw against them, including the FW190 from 1941.
As has been mentioned by other commentators, the Germans also switched to night operations post September 1940 as large bomber formations coming up against a capable fighter defence would be cut to pieces - This was pragmatism, not cowardice, preserving the lives of the aircrew.
By the time the USAAF 8th air force was able to mount substantial raids in 1943, the Luftwaffe was not the formidable force it had been in 1940 due to attrition in attacks over England and the demands of the Eastern front. However, it was still a potent adversary and the initial daylight attacks saw heavy losses, leading to a pause in operations in 1943 - Despite the B17's and B24's being far more heavily armed than the Lancasters, Halifaxes and Stirlings (To the detriment of payload and demanding larger crews to operate) , the Germans countered this with larger cannon and stand off rockets on their 109's and 190's so they could engage beyond the range of the 50 cals.
It was only with the advent of the P51 and improved drop tanks on the P47 that the bombers could be escorted in to enemy territory, a luxury that Bomber Command never had, which then allowed the daylight raids to continue. The more heavily armed German fighters became the prey rather than the hunters and the BF110 was withdrawn totally to night missions as it was easy meat (As it had been to more nimble Spitfires and Hurricanes during the Battle of Britain in 1940)
Your comment about the Norden sight is also spot on - My grandfather was at Cassino in Italy during1943. A saying amongst the squaddies was, "When the RAF bombed, the Germans ducked. When the Luftwaffe bombed, we ducked. When the Americans bombed, everybody ducked".
Irrespective of nationality, all those who participated on day or night missions in the face of determined opposition possessed a courage that I don't think I could have shown. and I salute them all
Thanks Cliff, some good points here.
@@johnbrewer8954 Perhaps I should have been more specific there, you are of course correct that the Whitley was intended for night operations
I have heard that quote from an RAF source alive at that time.
@@cliffdixon6422 Julius Meimberg, Battle of Britain veteran said, ‘It’s all exaggerated, Churchill succeeded in creating this myth that so few did so much for so many. When you look at how we fought against the Americans later, the Battle of Britain was very little in comparison.’
Military History Matters Battle of Britain: A German Perspective page
@@cliffdixon6422 "On the night of 18th/19th August, 1944, twenty-one Mosquitos attacked Berlin, seven Cologne, two Wanne Eickel and five the airfields at Florennes. By then Mosquitos of eleven squadrons had been used for diversionary attacks on a small but gradually increasing scale since the first thousand-bomber raid on Cologne on 30th/31st May, 1942. From the spring of 1943 until the end of the war 'harassing' raids as they were originally termed were to prove a constant and, from the point of view of the enemy, a most irritating and unpleasant feature of the bomber offensive. Night after night the Mosquitos were over Germany, flying at between 30,000 and 40,000 feet to inflict damage out of all proportion to the weight of bombs they dropped. They were at once of great value as a nuisance, for they caused the sirens to wail and tired workers to spend yet another night in fetid, if bombproof, bunkers, and they created a diversion, thus drawing the enemy fighters away from the main bomber stream."
Hyperwar Royal Air Force 1939-1945 Chapter XII Oil and the Climax
In the end it would have to be noted that with Americans operating by day and RAF at night (mostly), it meant that weather permitting the German forces were more or less constantly on alert, combined with losses in experienced pilots reduced overall combat effectiveness. I remember reading a book by someone who flew on B17's over Europe, who literally stated that with the range of the P47 was Just inside Germany itself, and that you could see the Luftwaffe setting themselves up to attack once the Fighter escort turned around.
And Goering was heard to say he knew the war was over once he saw P51's over Berlin...
Big surprise for the German fighter pilots when the Mustang didn't turn back and kept on coming. Slightly off-topic, but I have never really understood why Spitfires couldn't have been equipped with drop-tanks to give them the range. Was it tried? The Mustang was similar size, had the same engine, but a more efficient wing design, so a 'plane of that size could definitely get there. The Mosquito definitely had the range - in the early days of the war, they bombed Berlin just to let the German people know they had a war on. 617 squadron when equipped with Tallboys and Grand Slams were effectively the fore-runner of the guided missile - ideally to deliver one huge bomb right on target to get the job done at the first attempt, rather than have squadrons spend months trying to hit a bridge, viaduct, canal, railway-line, submarine pen, gun emplacement etc "shot-gun" style with small bombs that achieved nothing if not right on target.
@@johnbrewer8954 Thanks John. I guess the main point is that both British and American strategists failed to anticipate the need for escort fighters to protect the bombers, and created a generation of long-range bombers with no suitable escorts.
Getting back to the Mosquito - it's always seemed a basic error that 617 squadron had to fly slow, straight, and level, and with spot-lights turned-on, straight at the flak-towers on the Mohne dam: Mosquitoes could easily have rendezvoused with them in the target area and shot up the flak towers.
@@Philcopson The Spitfire is actually significantly smaller than the Mustang, especially in terms of internal volume of the fuselage. Neither airplane was designed as a long-range escort fighter. The Spitfire was designed as an interceptor, and the Mustang was designed as a "better P-40" for the British. The P-40 had been designed as an inline-engined improvement over the radial-engined P-36. Neither the P-36 nor the P-40 was designed to have long range because the leadership of the U.S. Army Air Corps was dominated by bomber-advocates who saw no need for escort fighters. The Mustang--designed half-a-generation later than the Spitfire, Hurricane, and P-36/P-40--was a more modern design that, in a happy accident, had more internal volume for internal fuel tanks. In another happy accident, the Mustang turned out to be a world-beater when equipped with the RR-designed, Packard-built Merlin engine, which had much better performance at high altitude than the Allison engine of the original models. Again, the USAAC had been short-sighted in deciding that tactical fighters didn't need second-stage supercharging.
The P-38 and P-47 had turbochargers which performed the same function as the Merlin's second-stage supercharger. In both cases, the supercharger and its cooling apparatus were bulky. There was no room in the P-51 for that, so it took an engine with a second-stage engine--the Merlin--to give it first-rate high-altitude performance.
@@Mike-eq4ky Goring had already said the war was lost when he saw Mosquito's over Berlin and he had nothiing able to catch them. It was just a US myth about the P 51 which wasn't there until 1944 by which time the Luftwaffe was in a bad way.
Great video, I always enjoy history being told by those who were there! Those Aircrew who fought on our behalf are absolute heroes, no question about it, I lost a great uncle over Belgium,
We will remember them , always,
Thanks again for telling their story.
Any suggestions that any bomber crew were cowards and were hiding in shadows are idiotic.. they faced fears that are incomprehensible time after time, regardless of it being day or night.. its laughable that people look back using the freedom they helped provide and judge how they provided it
Mum was in the RAF on ground crew. She said they did any job the men could do bar one and that was clearing out the tail gunners position in the returned Lancs. That was a sack and shovel job.
Yeah, dangerous job the Rear Gunner. Of the 55,000 Bomber Command crew who died, around 20,000 of them were Rear Gunners. Makes me wonder how my Great Uncle survived. He flew three full Operational tours on Lancs, the second and third as mid upper gunner/navigator, but his first tour was as a rear gunner. 30 missions as a rear gunner.
My family lived in Liverpool during the infamous May blitz. The Luftwaffe were able to identify Liverpool as, being on an estuary, it was more visible at night as they had the lights of Eire to help them. The whole of Liverpool was a bomb site. But you have to take this whole story in a slightly different context . In the 1930 and 40's most people did not have cars. People lived near where they worked to save time money and effort after a hard days work My mother''s family lived one mile from the docks, the main target for the Luftwaffe. My aunt spent most of the war making ammunition. Should she have been a target - of course she should. In one computer generated picture it shows a nice factory out on its own. These factories would have been built to keep them away from the bombers but most of them, including railways would have been in cities. I didn't want to get involved in the relative merits of a the USAAF v the RAF but I would like to point out that the USAAF bombing box was probably wider than its target factory
Excellent analysis sir. Thank you for your hard work. You’ve earned my subscription!
I appreciate it mate, cheers!
I remember Albert Speer on "World at War" saying of the thousand bomber raids and big city raids that if you'd carried on with those we would have collapsed. Also so often when I am reading about some other aspect of Germany's war effort - such as the Me262 or its engine plant, vital parts for their best tanks, crucial U-boat components etc - the history will record a desperate shortage "due to Allied bombing".
Albert Speer said that in late 1943, if Bomber Harris had been allowed to carry on with a few more heavy bomber raids the war in Europe could well have been over in early to mid 1944.
My understanding was that USAAF aircraft did not posses compatible night landing aids which worked with systems on UK airfields (direction, glideslope, distance etc). Coming home after a long night mission with a shot-up plane - and no useful landing aids - resulted in excessive early USAAF landing casualties. So they switched to daylight for the USAAF. The RAF could use those aids, so flew at night.
Source - talking about this in 1960-80s with locals in UK, in East Anglia (many USAAF airbases).
Talking with RCAF aircrew flying as RAF stationed at Kunming with their billets beside General Chenault's Flying Tigers at a reunion; a story was related about an American bomber with the pilot taking a jeep to the tower and the rest of his crew deployed around the aircraft with tommy guns due to it's "super secret" bombsight, only to be told he was 360 miles from his intended airdrome. The pilot roared back to his aircraft, ordered his crew aboard, cranked up and took off without waiting for permission from the tower. The tale included the bit about Chenault's boys roaring with laughter along with the commonwealth crews stationed there when they all learned of the pilot's embarrassment. If you cannot find your destination in the daylight how could one expect you to find a target in the dark?
That sounds like one of those British army rumors that evolved over time. The same army that told their troops that the sa80 rifle was the best in the world
@@ejmproductions8198 In fairness the LA85A2 is not bad, its only real drawbacks are its a bit on the heavy side for a modern infantry rifle, and it can only be fired right handed. The A3 looks like it is actually very good. The A1 however was a pile of dogshite, but that's what you get for a bunch of non firearms engineers designing the weapon by committee, not being given the time to test said weapon by the Government, and so rolling out a firearm that was in essence an early prototype.
About the only things they got right on the A1 were the sling (which was, and still is outstanding), and the fact that every weapon had optics. Yeah, the SUSAT was not fantastic compared to more modern systems but it was a ton better than iron sights.
The A2, after H&K got their hands on it is not the best service rifle in the world, but it is a serviceable one, I would say middle of the pack. Scores low on weight as I indicated, but scores very highly on accuracy, and felt recoil is virtually non existent, even for a 5.56, probably helped by that extra weight. Given a choice I would prefer an M4, but if I had no choice and was issued an LA85A2 I would be confidant enough in the weapon. Give me an A1 and I would 'lose' it and beg, borrow or steal literally ANYTHING else.....
The SA80's reputation was pretty much made by the A1, very few people bother to actually look into it to find that the issues with the weapon (bar weight and single side use) have been solved, and with the A3 it looks like it has been seriously lightened. So it may be that its only the single side use that is the deal breaker for many people with the system these days.
USAAF Bomber pilots spent up to a year learning how to fly in formations of up to 54 aircraft in daylight.
@@nickdanger3802
So what went wrong?
don't forget britain was fighting as a country on its own when all other countries were overun for 2 years
Unless you count Canada, Austrailia, south Africa...
@@mitchellsmith4690 yes being thousands of miles away
@@cwr3959 and their troops on the front line.
@@mitchellsmith4690 I think our freind here means in terms of geography. Yes there were lots of commonwealth personel on the front lines, but when bombs are dropping on your own citys, and invasion seems inevertable and yes the nearest allied territories are thousands of miles away we did feel on our own.
@@mitchellsmith4690 They did not all arrive on the 3rd of September......1939
I’m always glad to find excellent videos that lay out the facts without an agenda either way. Excellent presentation. No rational person could question the fortitude of either nation’s bomber crews. My Dad was a US Navy Hellcat fighter pilot. Always a profound experience when I heard the pain in his voice talking about his comrades that didn’t get to go home. If you climbed into one of those aircraft (fighter, bomber) and flew into the jaws of death again and again, you were/are inarguably a hero.
Thanks for watching!
The Luftwaffe received night fighters like the Messerschmitt 110G, 85 night fighter aces shed light of the dangers for RAF Bomber crews. Attrition in the USAAF during the initial day light raids inside Germany showed what the crews faced. Brave men, all of them.
I have nothing but sheer admiration for the bomber crews, whether on daylight or night missions. They had to fight a war against the Axis powers and another war against their own fear from what must have been terrifyingly stressful conditions.
Also, the RAF chaps tended to have rather poor conditions in their military accommodation, the strictures of the class system (e.g. Sergeants and Officers within the same squadron or even crew with separate messes, etc.) Additionally, the RAF had the dreaded spectre of LMF, and I am certain many of the aircrew who flew in Stirlings and Wellingtons were uncomfortably aware of these planes' shortcomings compared to the Lancs and Halifaxes.
It is still painful to consider how Bomber Command personnel were swept under the rug after the war, barely being recognised for their efforts. The Americans rightfully treated their aircrew with a good deal more respect and gratitude.
I don't understand why people consider Bomber Comment as cowards when they were the ones were at mediate treat while the US had time to study the war before they got directly involved. Watched from Jamaica and the bomber Jamaica? got my attention, what can you tell me about it?
As a person born and raised in the USA I have always held the British pilots (and soldiers) in very high esteem.
my father was a navigator in Bomber Command and told me a popular saying of the time,
When the RAF bombed the Germans ducked
When the Germans Bombed the Allies Ducked
but when the Americans Bombed every Fu(ker had to duck
I think it's unfair to judge bomber command harshly. They pursued a strategy that they thought would help them win the war.
It's a very interesting debate.
@@CalibanRising I'm surprised that it's a debate at all.
@@matthewwolff3729 : There was a time, not to long ago, where I would've been equally surprised. But the amount of ignorant (Let's not mince words) "Bell-ends" that are walking among us, this day & age, I'm not surprised, 1 bit.
There's a guy, in 1 of the top comments claiming "Bomber Command" sent Scottish & Commonwealth pilots, on tougher missions than British crews. Honestly, some people....SMDH
It resulted in more life's being saved in the end - had it dragged on for longer on to including and past August 1945 likely Atomic bombs would have been used in Berlin, Hamburg, etc and other German cities, More Allied men would be lost in the Pacific until we had won in the West and perhaps more Atomic bombs would have been used in Japan.
According to Speer if the heavy RAF bombing in 1943 had continued a bit longer the war could have been over in 1944, unfortunately due to pressure frmn the US bomber command were not allowed to.
I had asked my Dad (RCAF Bombardier 6th Bomber Group) why the B17 flew by day. His response was training. He said that he was 2nd navigator and spent much of his mission time at the navigator table. The US flew in formation with the navigator on each bomber also the radio operator. Night missions weren't really an option without rework.
@@johnbrewer8954 That was one busy fella.
My mother had two cousins in the 8th Air Force. Both KIA. One was a Navigator killed when his H2S equipped B17 was shot down over Hamburg in June, 1944. Another was a former B-17 pilot turned scouting pilot whose P-51 crashed in bad weather on a mission over eastern France in January 1945. A more distant cousin, a B-24 gunner, was killed when his aircraft crashed on takeoff in England.
Great topic! I really liked it.
Glad you enjoyed it!
My father was in aircrew in WW2, mainly as a rear gunner and amongst his 20 ops before he was shot down on the 20th, he went up with the Americans in daylight as well as night bombing.
Very interesting.
At 5:49 Slessor seems to be photographed against a map of the grid of hyperbolae produced by two Gee stations---probably mobile ones brought over after D-Day---based in north-eastern France. Using stations based in the UK, Gee was first used by the RAF in March 1942 for night-time navigation.
The error ellipse 350 miles away from the three stations needed to get a fix was about six miles long and one mile wide.
Great info, thanks!
Excellent video! Balanced...
I love the Wellington. It's like throwing bombs out of a flying wicker chair.
What if the RAF had P51s escorting Lancasters for daylight bombing?
My dad did 2 daylight ops when they were escorted by P51's (and Spitfire's) according to the Squadron ORB's.
On one of the ops they were attacked by ME262's but Mustangs from Polish Squadrons bounced the jets and shot down 4 for the loss of 2 Lancs.
You know? I'm an American with deep British Commonwealth roots...
My uncle was a Lanc Pilot (from Trinidad and Tobago) who had awesome pics from the war and I was VERY proud of him!!!
I think they both did what was necessary to kick ass and take names!
I think that the common perception of the Americans just wanting to go in and take care of business by being aggressive played a huge role!
The problem with the Americans is that they have no conception of total war. They will after the next one.
@@mikemines2931 I know, right?
Japan was almost pristine when we were done with it...
Why doesn't this show Mike Mnes' reply to my comment?
In any case, he literally said that the U.S. doesn't understand total war...
Thus my reply...
I wonder what General Sherman might have thought of that idiocy...
@@chrislong3938 In Russian?
Given the number of Victoria Crosses awarded to bomber crew members the idea that they were cowards in nonsensical.
Both squadrons my dad was operational with had a VC winner.
61 Squadron had Flight Lieutenant Bill Reid and 83 Squadron had Sergeant John Hannah, both Scots.
One major contributor to RAF bomber losses was the Monica tail warning radar. The Luftwaffe ground based radar vectored the German night fighter into the general area and the Monica tail radar receivers in those night fighters were able to home in on the signals. Once a Luftwaffe fighter had the bomber stream bearing it was only a matter of continuing on the same bearing to the next RAF bomber. The RAF only found out about this after nearly two years of use when a German night fighter landed by mistake at a RAF base and the Brits found the equipment tuned to the exact frequency of Monica. After the RAF found this out, Monica was abandoned.
"The Yanks were flying Fortresses's at twenty thousand feet with loads of ammunition and a teeny weeny bomb,
The RAF were flying Lancasters at zero, zero feet with no ammunition and a Bl**dy great bomb."
Words from a wartime ditty sung in RAF messes.
Lancasters were flying missions up to and including 20,000ft. B-17s were at 25,000ft, which had half the chance of being hit by flak as 20,000ft, or 1/4 the chance of 15,000ft which was pretty typical for RAF night bombing.
@@wbertie2604 Thank you for your erudite contribution. It was just a silly song sung to the tune of "John Brown's Body", not a statement of fact, although there are some elements of truth in it.
@@wbertie2604 So, by the standards of American hatred of the British, you could say it was the Americans who were the cowards by flying higher. The song also spoke the truth, Mosquitos could carry a 4000lb bomb load to Berlin with only two crew. The B17 wasted a lot of payload hauling tons of 50 cal ammunition. The much maligned Spitfire in PR form also carried out sorties over Berlin. I think the real reason for so much hate being directed at Britain is that the country did not pack it in and spoiled the American myth of them saving the world.
@@photoisca7386 What did bombing Berlin accomplish?
How many fighters were shot down by unarmed Mossie bombers?
“Now at this very moment I knew that the United States was in the war, up to the neck and in to the death. So we had won after all! ... How long the war would last or in what fashion it would end no man could tell, nor did I at this moment care ... We should not be wiped out. Our history would not come to an end ... Hitler's fate was sealed. Mussolini's fate was sealed. As for the Japanese, they would be ground to a powder. All the rest was merely the proper application of overwhelming force.” Churchill
Whatever criticism anyone has of the strategic decisions on the use of day vs night bombing campaigns, it is grossly unjust to challenge the amazing courage of the crews flying in either campaign. As we approach Remembrance Day, we need to reflect on the dedication and sacrifice all these heroic young people made.
I remember commenting that I'd rather have flown in the B-17 because they flew in tight formations and this gave them the option to cover each other with there fields of fire, but in the Lancaster, they flew single Charlie. Thank you for all the hard work.
Peace
Thanks mate!
But Lancaster losses were lower in real terms.
@@thevillaaston7811 I don't know what "real terms" means, but I did know more B17s were shot down, than Lancasters. I don't know what the # of missions/planes lost ratio is though. I actually like the Lancaster more, just not on bombing sorties
Peace
@@ChickSage As a percentage agaist numbers of aircraft in each mission, and the number of missions undertaken, Lancaster crews had a higher survival rate, while the air war was any sort of contest.
@@ChickSage Lanc losses were about 50 per cent higher than B17 losses. Before someone sez "the RAF was at it from 39", Lanc's and 8th AF started ops in 1942.
Many good observations in the video, but I agree the title is clickbait. It comes down to the experience and capabilities of each country. Britain started much earlier in the war and there were no long-range escort fighters until late in the war. The "Flying Fortress" was proven to not be capable of standing up to fighters unescorted. As you alluded to, the vaunted Norden Bombsight was grossly over-rated when used in real war conditions. True precision bombing requires precision/guided munitions. The early US missions could maybe hit near the right city, but they missed their targets by miles as well. As the war dragged on, it seems every country moved to area bombing as the reality of precision bombing, with a few notable expectations, could not be achieved.
An interesting question is whether Britain would have been better off to try and build many more Mosquitos. Their delivery of bombs per aircrew and their survival rate were exceptional.
An analogy could be drawn to the US refusing to do coastal blackouts and convoys after the US entered the war. It led to huge losses for US shipping until it adopted the British convoy system. This will likely bring up Admiral King, who the British love to hate (with reason).
I was in the US Air Force during Vietnam. There were still officers who had served in WWII. I served under the Strategic Air Command. There was something most definitely different about the men who had flown and manned the B17's. Their interests were entirely to achieve the mission. The later officers and NCO's only followed orders. It was a very distinct difference. But I had the feeling that they were selected by survival. Among us actual workers, most were focused on the mission, but the upper NCO's were nothing more than cogs in a machine, often more interested in their next promotion rather than the real mission. I was Bomb/Nav and the "backup" was that POS Norden bombsight. It might have worked at low altitudes, but even on our attacks on NV AA missile emplacements, I could not even see the targets that were plainly visible on the bombing radar.
My paternal grandfather was a RAF Airframes technician (he was a CoachBuilder for the railway pre WW2 so was never going to be put into a 'non skilled' role).
He worked in deep Maintenance at RAF Middleton St George where they repaired the most smashed up aircraft of all types.
He would occasionally blag a seat in a test fight (DH Mosquitos being his absolute favourite).
In a moment of madness he engineered himself a flight on a Lancaster over to Bremen on a raid.
When he told me about it 40yrs later the hairs on his arm still stood up and his voice faltered. He said it was the most reckless and stupid thing he'd ever done and he had no idea how those lads did it night after night. He had nothing but admiration for their bravery.
My grandfather was a stable hand in his spare time and rode like the wind, he raced motorbikes in the 30s & 50s and had a very successful amateur boxing career. Nothing he did was 1/2 hearted and he, to my mind given what his friends told me, was brave to the point of reckless when he raced and fought.
But he said he was a child in comparison to these men.
That's good enough for me.
The US grave at the site of a bomber crash on the hill above my town is still maintained with flowers and poppies every year (they got lost in low cloud), the crew not forgotten. Same with a Canadian one near the next town. The sites scatter the landscape of the south coast.
Your mention of the weather got me thinking. Flying at night, especially a moonless night, would make spotting weather harder. Also, it made emergency landings more dangerous.
I'd agree. Very dicey indeed.
617 Squadron did carry out daylight bombing raids, but later in the war when the Luftwaffe was beaten. They carried out precision bombing operations on high value targets with Tall Boy and Grand Slam bombs. Earlier on in the war there were precision night time raids too. Mark Felton of this parish wrote a book about a raid on a crucial viaduct in 1940 by crews of Hampden bombers. The fact that the RAF could be reasonably accurate on night bomber raids makes me wonder where Bomber Harris's area bombing strategy was the best one.
Harris was informed by the Butte report. Although individual, well-trained crews could be accurate at night and despite the pre-operational training, the brutal reality was that the attrition rate meant that the average level of training was lower as people too often died or were captured before they gained lots of practical experience. So in 1942 hitting something city-sized seemed all that was practically possible and that causing lots collateral damage was the best option.
Debate rages, given the amount of resources the UK devoted to heavy bombers (for example, tank production was deprioritised), whether this was actually effective compared to more emphasis and resources to training, electronic aids, etc. and more precision. Harris (and others) erroneously believed that strategic bombing alone could win the war and opposed the diversion of heavies to operational and tactical missions during the Normandy campaign, but was overruled. In the end, bombing turned out to be insufficient.
The RAF actually did a lot of daytime bombing, just not much strategic bombing by day. Blenheims were still doing daylight raids well into 1942, and often with loss rates that made night bombing look relatively safe, compounded with being at low altitude. Prior to the Bristol X turret the chances of the gunner getting out of a Blenheim were slim, but even after that turret was introduced the missions were at such low altitude it didn't make much difference.
After the Blenheim, the RAF used a number of US mediums.
Outside North Western Europe, which the above refers too, often daylight bombing was the main mode of attack by the RAF.
As a boy here in Canada I knew some men that flew with the RCAF in night bombing missions. One was a tailgunner in a Halifax bomber. Their missions were long and very dangerous. Unlike the Americans each Bomber Command aircraft flew alone as part of the bomber stream and when attacked did not enjoy the support of other bombers. If anything it took more courage to fly night missions.
According to the tailgunner I knew in his crew they were instructed by the commander to not open fire on German night fighters they saw for fear of giving their position away. They were to inform the pilot of any German fighters they saw hunting them and he would attempt evasive maneuvers.
He also said he watched many planes being destroyed and you could tell who's they were by the color of the burning metal due to the different alloys. Some missions were very tough as he counted dozens of Bomber Command craft burning in the skies around him over the entire mission.
They had to be very strong to stand the strain of so many missions and few crews made it all the way through an entire tour.
Chuck Yeager was asked why he didn't paint his bright silver P51 with camouflage, he replied " I WANT the Germans to see us and come up and fight"
The American Army Air Corp had a gang that are called the bomber mafia they rejected the whole concept of fighter escorts. the P 47 was available from day one but weren't allowed to use the drop tanks that would work
and now they have the fighter Mafia
Evidently those who want to make it RAF verses USAAF have no concept of the air war. Both RAF and USAAF aircrews sacrificed much for our freedom. Bless them all!
I've never heard the take that Bomber Command didn't matter. It has always been presented to me that both were important.
Perfectly balanced, well narrated. Good show
Thanks Yolanda
When people go on about the RAF bombing baby's they always fail to mention the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica campaigns of terror via the Blitz.... I grew up in a sleepy town called Swanage a small coastal town, It had a decent beach to land on i guess? but realistically the Bay and Swanage were not that important, I guess Studland was used for some testing for D'day, and we did have a few US barracks but it really was not that important in the early years, Yet even this little town had a few big ol' bombs dropped on it by a 111. And no i am not saying that an eye for an eye is a good thing, but i am young and did not live through the terror of the Blitz, I did not grow up with the fear of a Zeplin raid some 20 years prior either.. But if I had witnessed this first hand I imagine my feelings would differ slightly..
Sadly war is a horrible thing, And such large bombing campaigns will always be a thing to break the spirits. The night campaign was the right tool at the time, and a wise move for a smaller group of aircraft. The day raids came late into a costly war, The 8th were still putting lots on the line with their raids but they were facing a slightly depleted enemy. Germany had lost many pilots and experienced people by the time America had come to war and they had the men and production ability to keep pumping out more and more.
The other thing about the US doing Day light raids, and making the RAF look like Villains was publicity for home no doubt! The US was not up for another war in Europe, They did not really want or need it, Their attention was on Japan and the average Joe back home reading a news paper needed their ideology changed a little no doubt so saying that the RAF were using the night sky to hide and to drop bombs with little accuracy - But We are different, We are not killing German Civilians we are using the day time to make aimed attacks on military targets, well it would have been good for moral and the many supporters of Germany in the early years. Remember the horror's of the political party of Germany at the time had not truly come to light. I do always feel that was a huge part, and also why the destruction of city's in Japan was less of an issue for the US.
agree - they stupidly started total war - killed many innocent men, women and children though air attacks (France, Norway, UK and Poland) along with killing millions of Jews in concentration camps - also they elected a total Nut Job in Adolf. Unfortunately bad history is repeating itself with nut job Pu7 7in and his deadly war with Ukraine; looks like Humans don't learn from History.
Guy Gibson Dambusters mission leader
On 19 October 1943 Gibson was invested with the Commander's Insignia to the Legion of Merit by General Henry H. (Hap) Arnold at Bolling Field near Washington D.C.
I also grew up in a sleepy town called Swanage a small coastal town, born 1937. please look up Holton Heath a huge site supplying the Royal Navy with explosives. the code breakers team at Bletchley Park started life at Worth Matravers. I left in 1955 for 12 years in the RAF as an aircraft electrician.