WINWING KA-50 Blackshark Collective and Gemini Base Review DCS
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- čas přidán 26. 08. 2024
- Looking at WinWing's latest control system, a helicopter collective with chair or desktop mounting via the Gemini and Orion throttle bases with DCS World!
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Thanks for the review. Makes me very glad I chose Virpil's collective.
Yup, same here. Mounted to my Monstertech MFC with quick release adapter. Takes me less than a minute to switch between collective and Thrustmaster Warthog throttle. Going by this review, the Winwing stuff would have been endless frustration
It’s crazy we’ve gotten two competing designs so close together, collectives were the realm of DIY prior. I love the compact Orion setup and Virpil’s purpose built mechanism looks great, hope they got the friction right with it.
WinWing just doing what Chinese companies do: See a company make something, copy it and cut corners in copying it.
@@RedKiteRender The Virpil mechanism is good, but not perfect. It needs to be tightened up occasionally, but for me st least, it is smooth. I ordered Neogel for it, to see if I can further improve on it. But again, it is very smooth to begin with.
@@RedKiteRender friction is probably similar, fact is the stiction issue you mentioned with this collective is also on the Virpil, and probably others. It’s kind of unavoidable on this type of device in this price range. You would have to have some extra mechanics involved to try and mimic the real thing and how it holds the collective in place to get around the stiction issue.
Let’s hope WinWing are ahead of the curve and are ready to release a set for the AH-64 !
Nice review! With the Ka-50 and Mi-24 already in the hangar, and the Apache coming, this definitely looks much more interesting as someone who already wants to get the Orion base for the F/A-18, the ability to throw on a collective is appreciated.
Excellent review. While still ridiculously expensive to play games, the option to have a full F18 throttle and the collective attachment for $850 CAD (excluding shipping and taxes of course) makes this setup about $450 cheaper than a separate Virpil throttle and collective. Why no review for the Virpil collective? They wouldn't send you one?
I'd love to review it, but Virpil have not responded to me sadly. I don't really have the money to throw around on buying everything unfortunately!
I recently have been playing through all the black shark campaigns again and was seriously eyeing this.
I love the ASMR of the buttons at the end! :P
Dcs is, in my book, literally unplayable until they make the ka50's windshield wiper work on the rain.
dont play in the rain
i was on through the inferno after restart and it was raining i was like hell yeah lets see these wipers do work and was severely disjointed
@@robstone7325 Really? That's how you deal with all problems in your life?
Thats how all hoggit subreddit folks do everything in life....give up a the slightest friction.
Lol, what a long way has it come so that is the biggest complain atm. 😇
Great review. If I was to get this I would immediately be thinking of 2 mods: a counterweight or balance spring so the friction can be reduced; and a custom dust boot
I once bodged my own collective from an old X55 throttle using assorted PVC and a shelf bracket. While lacking any additional controls, just having that propper leaver makes SUCH a huge difference when flying hilos. Cannot recommend a collective of some species to anyone at all interested in simming choppers
Yay! Been waiting for this! Good review. Appreciate the honesty. I'm thinking this with the Gemini base. 5:50
I added an extension spring secured to the back end of the tube using a hose clamp and a bit of aluminum plate with a hole in it shoved under the base to secure the other end. By sliding the plate closer/further I was able to fine tune the tension to achieve pretty decent neutral balance throughout the range. Not perfect, still need a touch of friction, but a vast improvement over stock. A better solution would be a weight suspended by a string running over a 3D printed cam stuck to the back of the tube to match the changing mass as the collective swings thru it's arc. But my quick spring solution is working good enough and I have plenty of other projects I'm working on, currently an MFD panel with a switch to change which one it's controlling in the plane. I fly in VR so no need for a working screen, plus a single switchable panel saves a huge amount of desk space.
You can add counterweight to help with the sticktion issues. Adding counterweight will give the possibility to use less friction and thus smoother travel.
That might work, although leverage will be working against you, and it might foul the base. Certainly something worth a shot, but i'm reluctant to modify hardware i'm reviewing so it didn't cross my mind!
Damn you, I'm getting the Monstertech desk mounts for orion winwing stick and throttle. I had decided that that the ka 50 wouldn't work for me, but the orion throttle control does ... lmao 🤣 🤣 🤣
Gudday RedKite, great review as always :) I got my Collective early and am really enjoying it, no more reverse-throttle collective!
Did you notice in the WinWIng SimApp Pro that there's a new 3rd mode for the Axes/Btn modes? The new mode auto-detects if the btn/axes has been mapped in DCS as an axes or btn, so you don't have to remember which way you set it for each module and have to go back into the App to re-configure.. VERY welcome update.
Ah, i did not! I shall make a note to check that out later, sounds awesome! for all the lack of visual design in SimAppPro they've done a fantastic job of getting useful features in.
@@RedKiteRender I just got my collective set up done. In SimAppPro, I can't acquire 65535 or 0 after calibrating RxRy, hence unable to gain enough lift/power in DCS KA50. Any suggestion?
@@kkcsteven Make sure you're calibrating the correct Axis, might be RxRx instead.
Hey redkite, just as a thought. Had a few friends who had the stickition issues you refered to. They found that it's almost like car brakes where it needs a little bit of wear in. They found if they started it out light and worked it a couple of times and slowly bumped up the resistance it ended up smoothing out nicely for them. Might be something to try if you haven't already.
Hmm i shall try, i’ve had the unit a couple of weeks by time of this review and hadn’t noticed any change. I’ll give it a deliberate workout and see if it improves.
nice review!!! I am sold!
Ordered the collective, base, chair mount. Build quality is solid. However, the base only uses half of the range of Rx and Ry. Though I calibrated the axis, and it works fine. It is far from the smoothness of the Orian throttle.
Oh man I am needing this🤯
Hope they Will release a setup for the Apache too :)
Nice review Mr Kite. Thank you. You should cover cost/ value for money as well.
WINWING doing something for the AH-64. I bet they'd sell like hotcakes.
Value for money is one of those subjective things, thats hard to quantify, It seems a fair price to me, do wish they'd made a specialised base for chair mounting though! Man i'd love an Apache collective!
No dust protection :(
My (unrelated) joystick is second hand and didn't come with the protective rubber sleeve, allowing cat hair to get in. Luckily it only messed with the sensor readouts and didn't blow up anything. Eventually found something similar enough I could make fit to keep out any crap.
It's one of those little details you overlook until you spend hours figuring out the problem.
Yeah, and when you're forking out lots of money for these devices it's important to look after them! Whilst i don't have cats anymore sadly, i certainly feel your suffering with cat hair!
I will maybe considering getting it when Black Shark 3 gets out, but that could take a while
Once Winwing sells you the product, you never hear back from them. I complained about several issues and NEVER heard back. Stay clear...
the control, itself, is like 50 times more interesting than any game it could possibly be used with
hi which winwing collectable will be aptable for UHD-1?
Do u no if the colllective works with the secret labs chair i have the batman xl chair
thank you Kite! You have also any news about Winwings F16 grip and throttle?
Sadly not heard anything, really interested to see how that detent plate works out.
great review, this has me thinking of getting the orion collective unit. but im new to Flight Sim. should i wait for the dust to settle on the AH64D release, which is why im taking an interest.
Do you guys or anyone here know what type of switches WINWING uses for their push buttons on SLing and TGT Lock? I love the feel of then, im trying to do my TEDAC and wanted to have these clicky buttons
Hi Redkite !
Thanks for the video.
Is the travel the same between Orion and Gemini with the short arm ?
I'm a debating wether or not getting the Gemini since I already have the Orion and not planning on using the long arm.
Does anyone know if the Black Shark collective is compatible with the Super Taurus base or only the Orion? I'm looking to get the Super Taurus/Super Libra combo and hoping to save a few bucks and some mounting space by using the collective with the Super Taurus base. Lots of info on the collective with the Orion, but cannot find anything stating yes or no with the Super Taurus. Thanks!
A question occurred to me about the sticktion issue. If you put counterweights on the part of the extension that is aft of the throttle pivot, does that reduce the amount of resistance needed to hold the collective in place?
That might work, although leverage will be working against you, and it might foul the base. Certainly something worth a shot, but i'm reluctant to modify hardware i'm reviewing so it didn't cross my mind!
Hi redkite! Awesome review! When mounting the collective grip on the orion base, do the switches on the base still work/function? If it does, it will be great as you get a lot more switches/buttons for controlling your helicopter.
All the Orion base buttons work just like normal!
Which makes this collective grip a very enticing option as I already have the orion base. Thanks for the info! 😃🤙
The problem I see with that is, to have the collective at the good position, the base will be a bit backward, and therefore the buttons will be hard to reach. Especially if you use an extension :)
Great Review!
I got it today...using it with my orion base. Now i have a "curvature" problem cause the moving distance of the axis is smaller as with the normal thruster grips. if i pull it all the way forward my collective curve is already at about 40 %.
Do you have modivied your curve or how did you fix it?
You need to do a calibration in SimAppPro of the throttle axis for the new travel range.
@@RedKiteRender Nice. I will try this immediately. Thanks
So the Gemini can be used as a normal throttle too? (with the throttle grip)
Hey what cam/spring configuration do you use for your virpil mount? I got the same setup but for me it feels a bit loose.
Try using the stronger spring if it's too loose for you.
@@RedKiteRender I'm using to the stronger one but what cam do you use?
@@AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH-y5f The smooth / detentless one
@@RedKiteRender Ok, thanks for the info.
It looks as though this collective has been discontinued? I saw a post in Reddit with a message from Winwing that it had reached 'end of life'. Can anyone confirm this? Winwing's response to me was the usual garbled nonsense. I've been trying to buy one now since before Xmas, but it's never in stock. It's half the price of the Virpil collective here in Canada.
What is the collective like with the new Orion 2 base?
Exactly the same, the throttle mechanism is the same, minus detents.
I hope they make an Apache grip! I don’t fly the Black shark, but would this be good for the Huey too?
Any current DCS helicopter it's plenty good for, Apache being the exception.
Will the collective work with the super Taurus throttle base?
just how bad is the stiction issue? I've been tempted by that collective setup for a bit- especially given that I already have (and quite like) an orion, just haven't really had the funds to pull the trigger yet, and mounting it to my chair (which has literally one bolt hole for the armrest because it's integral to the backrest) is probably going to require either a DIY solution, or a new chair.
As i mentioned, non issue without extension. With, it’ll depend. Set to the minimum length, with the minimum friction required to hold it balanced between the axis i don’t think it has any significant detriment to my flying, just feel. Trouble is without a dampening piston of some sort i think it will be tricky to make something hold it and be buttery smooth.
@@RedKiteRender That's fair. I suppose it's difficult to convey that sort of feel-based information through text (or spoken word in a video, I guess)- like, I'd consider the stiction issues the TM Warthog base develops to be on the unacceptable end of things, and while this is an entirely different mechanism, would you be able to compare the stiction to that?
Not as bad as the warthog, unless you excessively tighten the friction.That said my Warthog eventually got so bad it could hold full forward deflection if i lightly released my pressure on it!
@@RedKiteRender I have a similar experience with the warthog, and that's part of why I bought an Orion after you promo'd it (which is to say to any Winwing or other HOTAS manufacturers, pls send redkite more stuff to demo and review). Thanks for the replies! May end up picking this thing up and just using a small table beside my chair to avoid the stiction issues altogether, and the extension is cheap enough that it's probably worth getting just in case I decide to go that route anyway.
Will this collective work with H.O.T.A.S Thrustmaster Warthog joystick?
Yes it works alongside any other usb game or flight controller.
Hello Redkite. You idee its Subliem.
One huge advantage it has over the Virpil entry is that the twist throttle is part of the grip rather than the stem and the extension can be swapped. Meaning that if they do release an apache grip, they can also release a shorter extension on the overall combo won't be sticking out uncomfortably far.
A drawback to this, it increases the cost per collective head. But, i think i like this way round more, so they can tailor the twist to the aircraft!
Will this work with super Taurus?
I tried to fly the KA-50 with my Hotas setup. It's impossible 🤣 I'm guessing it's somewhat easier with a proper setup?
Having a collective instead of a throttle, makes things a little easier, but it won't make a difference enough to improve your flying if you're struggling, that'll take practice :)
@@RedKiteRender ah ok I see, I kinda have difficulties holding the chopper still in mid air aka hovering. Feels like it is way way to sensitive.
@@DDtch6669 Add some curvature, say 20-30 units to both pitch and roll, that'll dull the inputs and make it easier to do small corrections. As for engine power on the throttle, remember that pitching reduces the lift, requiring more to stay up, make small corrections and try to find a 'neutral position, observe for changes and make micro corrections then return to the rough neutral position before the result.
So you're gently bumping the power up/down temporarily to give the aircraft a nudge in the right direction.
@@RedKiteRender Thanks for your help! I will try it. Love DCS. I'm also quite new to it after playing ARMA 3 for quite some time.
I've never seen anyone fly helicopters by adjusting the RPM midflight
That's because most helicopters have automatic governors. Sometimes it's damaged (unnoticed, its a leading cause of helicopter engine failure in dcs) Some older civil helicopters don't even have a governor.
i really want one now dam it, maybe i can convince the wife for Xmass
Ive heard shipping for Winwing piece of kit can be pretty dear. My Warthof throttle seems to have given up the ghosr so been looking at options.
That looks like a great accessory for the Orion. Do you think it'll be enough for the Apache module?
I think it'll be short on switches, given the Apache has a dual head with multiple hats and axis. You'd need some modifiers to make it work, but may be doable.
@@RedKiteRender Casmo did a video on the apache's collective and it seems like the entire lower head just isn't used in general so it probably won't be too much of an issue.
Any chance WinWing have plans to make an Apache Stick and Collective?
Hey, and possibly even a TEDAC controller 😎
That tacky solution for a bump stop has got to be the worst and laziest way to implement that into their system, Virpil has this beat by a mile!
..and someday DCS scenary look better. nope. they all ready got money and seems everyone is like OMG realistic. graphics sukcs on scenary LOL. inside aircraft it look but we not care when we have all buttons outside sim. do we want better scenary yet LOL. mayby point is dcs world 2. money again and all modules
Naaaa No thank you
Black Shark will always be the best chopper in DCS. Can’t wait to shoot down some Apaches in the BS3
Three things that KA-50 doesn't have against AH-64D are:
1) Air-to-Air radar
2) FLIR for night operation
3) Rotating cannon at extreme close range engagements (think about helicopter dog fighting in a city, inside 1 km circle).
Otherwise KA-50 will have a better capabilities.
The pilots has said that AH-64D Longbow radar was not so impressive as it is wanted to be said and had lot hoped to be improved. So instead any 8 km detection range we should be more likely seeing something around 3-4 km and that with just partially some vehicles on good visibility and then those without any camouflage (that renders them invisible to radar and FLIR).
The KA-50 will have a Vikhr that is Mach 1.8 (600 m/s) with fragmentation proximity fuze warhead for A/A use and 12 of them. Where AH-64D using Hellfires doesn't have than impact fuze.
If AH-64D doesn't get Stinger missiles (2+2) then KA-50 with IGLA missiles will have even easier "Fire'n'Forget" capability for quick snapshots.
The Shkval system doesn't show up at the Laser Warning System than possibly just couple seconds before impact as the laser energy is so weak and not focused. Where laser guided hellfires are imminent detection from any range lighting up KA-50 LWS.
At night the KA-50 is in trouble, but lot of things can be done with the illumination rockets. It doesn't affect the AH-64D FLIR as it doesn't care, but if pilot wears the NVG then he is blinded on the moment the illumination rocket is lit up and denies their use of NVG. When AH-64D is inside or otherside of the 1-1.5 km radius that is lit up, the KA-50 has same capability or advantage to operate with TV as with FLIR.
The main benefit that AH-64D has is two eye pairs instead one, and better visibility outside. But take two KA-50 (2 players) vs single AH-64D (2 players) and the situation is worse to AH-64D as force multiplier is very big for KA-50.