Phidias(?), Parthenon sculptures, frieze: 438-432 B.C.E., pediment: c. 438-432 B.C.E. and metopes: c. 447-32 B.C.E., an ARCHES video Speakers: Dr. Steven Zucker and Dr. Beth Harris
What an intelligent and balanced way to discuss a very sensitive matter. Discussion and intelligent reasoning and not argument, where either side only hears their own points, is the proper way to resolve complex issues. I’m sure the ancient Greeks would concur.
During the Greek War of Independence...when the Greeks placed the Ottoman-Held Acropolis under Siege, the Turks began destroying the Parthenon Temple by tearing apart her Columns as to be able to pull out the Lead from inside them to be able to make more Bullets. In seeing this, the Greeks themselves offered their besieged enemies their own Munitions (in essence, to shoot at them) if they would stop tearing apart their Monument. Mind you, the Majority of these Greek Fighters, at that time, had almost absolutely little to a non-existent Education...yet they still felt something inside their Hearts to protect this Monument, even if it meant putting their own lives in Danger
@@beverlykandraceffinger3764 I studied this incident years ago, because some people actually claimed that it was a myth. But it ACTUALLY HAPPENED 😅 There are official documents talking about the incident & the negotiations. If I dig into my archives one day, I will share them. God Bless! 💙👍🏻
Oh come on. This story is nothing but nonsensical and apocryphal storytelling masking as history. Take your chauvinistic nationalism elsewhere - and not the comments of an art history video. Your lying attempt to support Greece's genuine and rightful claim to all of the Parthenon sculptures devalues that claim. The fact that you were able to fool at least 42 people into believing what historians very broadly consider to be a propagandistic anecdote for the Megali Idea is disheartening itself.
@david Ironically (and offensively) when Greece became independent and started requesting the marbles back, the UK sent them plaster casts of the sculptures (which are today on the acropolis museum). If the UK considered these plasts to be a fair substitute for the marbles, they could as well return the marbles to Greece and expose their own casts in the museum.
@morgoth there are two translations of the alleged permission, one published in the UK parliamentary select committee report which recommended the purchase of the marbles from lord Elgin and another published by scholar which acquired this translation from the family of one member of Elgin’s team. Nevertheless it has been already proven by many scholars that (i) only a firman (specific document issued by the ottoman sultan) could authorize Elgin’s taking and (ii) that the document that the translations refer to is not a firman. In fact, the dissemination of these facts led the British museum to change its strategy to defend its keeping of the marbles, shifting from a legal argument on ownership to the argument of the importance of universal museums. In any event, even if there had been any written authorization, it would be legally void considering the huge amount of bribes Elgin and his team payed to ottoman authorities (Elgin himself admitted to the extensive bribing when interviewed by the parliamentary select committee).
@@kopynd1 No, it was in imperial power applying the dogma "might is right". Britain is no longer the almighty empire it was and the fact that it left the EU just shows how difficult it is for the UK to come to terms with not being that special anymore. The sculptures belong in Athens. Not because of any nationalistic agenda, but because that is their home.
Well, the new Museum of Acropolis was recently voted as the best museum in Europe I think, in terms of preservation and condition of these important pieces of History. i think it is quite clear that there is a safe place for the Marbles to be returned , exactly where the belong .
The Iris? torso always gets my attention - love the drapery and pose. I wish I could see the rest of whoever she is. As for Elgin, the arguments on both sides are compelling. I appreciate the idea of a global culture, being able to see ancient history from all over the world in one place. Giving people the opportunity to learn about times and societies beyond their own. If more lives are (positively) touched and affected that way... having the sculptures in museums can't be so bad.
"divorced from the building they came from" yes, a building still standing. They should absolutely be returned - there is no doubt. They won't because it will start a *_LANDSLIDE_* that will topple the museum. And the inevitable ripple effect terrifies museums across the world. To inspect them up close is a privilege, but they were made for a specific purpose, one they can still fulfil, way up there in situ, looking out over Athens. There will always be times of instability around the world, going forward museums could aid each other for the sake of cultural history, instead of insisting on holding onto vestiges of colonialism and vandalism.
Beautifully and logically expressed here. Despite the fact that cast's have been made and send to Athens there is also incredible 3D scanning technology and superb 3D printing or even sculpting technology that can reproduce them to the power of micrometer the British museum is practically also refusing the offer of having new artifacts send from Greece regularly. And I wonder if that fact isn't it serving better the notion of a Universal Museum which has the ability to show off to the world new artifacts?
Imagine the Statue of Liberty in the Beijing Museum. Except for the SoL has only been in American possession for a little over a hundred years while the Parthenon marbles were in Athens for thousands of years. Copies should be made as per the original agreement and the originals returned to their home in Greece.
This seems like such a logical solution, I'm surprised nobody with more power has at least suggested it. Surely we have the means today to copy the sculptures and transport them without damaging the originals.
I am currently very much angry on this Lord Elgin. As you know, Brits were once the masters of my country India. Lord Elgin's son was a Viceroy in India. Unfortunately, there's a road in kolkata named after him.
Elginism, noun: an act of cultural vandalism, in this case imperial. Thank you both, σας ευχαριστώ και τους δύο, Steven and Beth, for your pragmatic and balanced presentation here of this issue, the issue where the Hellenic government has been asking for the repatriation of our cultural legacy for two hundred years. I kind of get the impression that you may be more on the side of these αγάλματα being returned home, although you are professionally and conscientiously careful to remain neutral on this in how you present this herein, imo. Firstly there were (and are) no firmans. All that remains is a translation of the supposed second one which could have been created from anywhence. Secondly we greeks were then little more than slaves when we were still under the ottoman -yolk- , sorry, yoke. We had little power to control what the turkmen decided or were manipulated into doing or not seeing or allowing. Last year the UK Guardian newspaper officially changed its editorial stance on the position of the Parthenon marbles to those being repatriated. 70% of the British peoples now agree with this opinion. Boris the student once agreed with this too, yet Boris the now once-PM stayed stumm on it. Last year a UNESCO panel decided that the marbles should be repatriated. It took only two days for the British to turn them down. I will finish by saying that the sage american archaeologist Joan Breton Connelly wrote an brilliant book named "The Parthenon Enigma". in it she wisely kept this issue back until the appendices and therein stated that she believed the marbles belong in Hellas with the greek people in the museum built especially to house them and in the correct orders they are supposed to be displayed as.🧿💙
@@fredericktarr8266 Don't be so hard on us, my friend. Besides, Istanbul has hardly any Greeks living in it any more. If we retook it then where would all the Turks go? We don't want another forced diaspora on religious and ethnic grounds again now, do we?
I'm British and from London and have grown up benefitting from seeing the marbles and everything else in the British Museum. Which is wonderful and FREE to all who are able to visit. That said, the marbles belong in Athens, as near to Parthenon as they can be. The Acropolis is an amazing site and worthy of being "universal" as much as a museum in London. I hope the marbles go on show there, free as well (you currently need to pay about 20 Euros/USD to enter the Parthenon and surrounding Acropolis, although the new museum of the Acropolis has 10,00 €/$ entry). If it's universal and not "owned" it should be free - they can offer premium tickets to jump the queue if extra funds are needed.
@@L-mo It does, from the moment you enjoy the economy your nation. A nation based on piracy, slavery and the art of taking advantage (forced advantage) of others who were pasing a weak period. Greece and the Partenon are just a simbol of what you are and what you represent fot the rest of the world.
@@andresalves2762 sorry, but being Uruguayan makes you complicit in the torture, murders, kidnappings and disappearances of the Uruguayan dictator Bordaberry and your government. Better assume responsibility in the barbaric morals of your people. I only stole some marble - you’re a monster 😂
@@L-mo Of course we were responsable, thats why I fought against it, thats why my father was tortured and my uncle dissapered. Thats why when I was 16 years old I fought against the regime. Thats why Bordaberry died in prision, convicted of his crimes. Although every single crime of the militar regime was against our own people (with British support) Your disgusting. Maybe you know very little of British history, you are disgusting
Should the US give back their land to the indigenous tribes that were there before them? After all, the British Museum is older than the US. What about all the other museums around the world? Should everyone return all the items paid for from antique shops to the original owner’s descendants? The Swiss open their vaults? Where do you draw the line? Think very carefully when you set a precedent.
@@catherinerobilliard7662 YES,the US should give back their land to the indigenous tribes ,it is stolen and spill with blood.Everyone should return all the items to the original owner’s .What about if someone stole a rock from stonehenge and greeks paid and buy and put it in a museum ,that will then be a part of greek history?Think very carefully when you set a precedent.
@@andreawalker5891 In what way is it "a part of England's history" may I ask? The Elgin Marbles are a collection of Classical Greek marble sculptures made under the supervision of the architect and sculptor Phidias and his assistants. Your "argument" immediately falls apart the moment you consider the fact that the marbles happen to have been made in Greece and range from depictions of Hellenic battles to literal pieces of the Parthenon. Thus, making it Greek history and not English. This assertion is so obvious and logical, that it absolutely bewilders me how you were able to be so oblivious to it.
Think it would be almost too generous towards England if the stolen goods from Greece but also India and Africa were returned with no payment of the accrued interest.
@@lilbrit1019 If Lord Elgin purchased them legally, why then does not all the countries recognize British ownership of the Parthenon Marbles ? At least those display in London ? And neither UNESCO? Why are there commitees, even in Great Britain, for the definitive return and reunification of these friezes in Greece? Are all these people wrong? And for the court, as you know, the UK is one of the most powerfull states in the world and will likely be pushing for jugement.
How about the Pergamum altar which is now in a museum in Berlin -arguably just as impressive as the Parthenon frieze but the only problem is that the Hellenistic kingdom of Pergamum where this glorious complex was built is now in Turkey -at the time when the Germans were allowed to take these sculptures and buildings. Imperial Germany of the second Reich was in alliance with the decaying Ottoman Empire To be logical Greece should also demand the return of these things from Germany.But where will it ever end???Mona Lisa should be returned to Italy from the Louvre etc etc -as one critic once said it will be like the resurrection of bodies at the Last Judgement -what bit of a body belongs to which body as over the centuries the molecules of one body has been co-opted into the tissues of another.
The British museum claims that the sculptures were ‘’legally purchased’’ From whom? From the Ottomans? And what authority had the ottomans on our monuments? Parthenon sculptures must return to Greece Nike of Samothraki and Aphrodite of Mílos must return to Greece The Pergamum Altar must return to Greece The Metropolitan museum in NYC is fullllll of Greek artefacts as well! Stolen artefacts! The must return to Greece! If you want to fill your museums fill the with your country’s history! Don’t steal monuments from other countries! It is different to borrow something some some time but it’s different to steal it and claim it as your own!
They owned Greece and all her lands sorry their ours you have no claim to them but they were made in Greece. Britain owns them and no legal grounds demand they are more greek then british
@Zuul Gatekeeper Can you show me who these Athens Authority Greeks were that sold the Parthenon Marbles? Man, that sounds quite delusional & revisionist to me. Sounds like some people will think of anything, no matter how outrageous, to try and justify these cultural thefts.
A lot of things must return to Greece. Many artefacts were stolen. I don't know what pride they get in keeping other's things illegally. As for the Ottomans, well, they did have authority over Greece back then. But that doesn't change the fact that those sculptures belong to Parthenon.
And here you have one person who indeed wants to start emptying museums all over the world in his demand to "return" Greek items. Critics of Elgin say this would not be the case but already in this thread are people demanding the return of items to India, Egypt and Kenya. We were told this wouldn't happen.
I visited the Acropolis of Athens in 1973. I took many many photos of the Parthenon. I visited the British Museum in 1975. There, I photographed all of the Elgin Marbles. I used these combined photos when teaching Humanities and Ancient History. If you have seen the Parthenon, you know that the position of the ancient frieze makes what remains of it very difficult to see from stylobate (floor) level. Placing the frieze at eye level, as in the British Museum, makes viewing it comfortably possible. The same also goes for the sculptures of the pediment and the metopes. Only in recent years have the Greeks built a museum to house these sculptures for easy viewing. I would say that the British have performed a valuable service. Who knows what would have happened to these works of art if they had been left in situ. Considering modern advances in making replicas, it might be a good time to return the originals to Greece and replace them with copies in the British Museum.
Thoughtfully said. I think people make the mistake (intentionally at times?) of placing judgement on people and things that happened hundreds of years ago through the lens of current times. Maybe it is time to make copies and send most or all of it back, but those who ‘cherry pick’ facts and ascribe motive for their own political purposes do not help the discussion at all.
Phidias, Pericles and the rest of the ancient Athenians are dead. (Probably just as well; Pericles would likely be up on charges of plundering the Delos treasury to finance the re-construction of the Parthenon.) Give the archaeologists their due, and leave ancient art in the hands of competent conservators who are supposed to serve a public trust.
@@MrNixtt Britain has many of them (many of which they purchased from the sovereign rulers of Greece at the time -- the Caliph), and those belong to them.
@@MrJm323 the caliph? Haha the country was occupied? Open a dictionary if you don’t know what this means. But your colonialist mind is hard to comprehend fine concepts like that
@@MrNixtt Then, by that definition, every country is "occupied". The Turks were not especially good stewards of the Greek artistic and cultural legacy. (For instance the greatest damage to have occurred to the Parthenon, by far, was the result of the Turk's decision to use the Acropolis as a fort and especially to use the Parthenon as a powder magazine.) ...And the Greeks were simply not in any position to guard this legacy. (I'll omit to mention that, to some extent, the Christian Greeks even REPUDIATED their ancient pagan legacy -- going so far as to repudiate the very name "Hellene" as a self-descriptor, in favor of "Rhomaion". They only went back to calling themselves "Hellenes" because Western Europeans held the ancient, pre-Christian Greeks in such high esteem.) It was a good thing that Lord Elgin had arranged to remove many of the marble reliefs from the Parthenon (with the cooperation of the Turks and practical help of Greek labor). Modern Greeks should show more GRATITUDE to the British.
It's their identity. They had so much destroyed in wars and should probably have them back, though I'm doubting that will happen. For the rest of us, it's world history and the development of civilizations and cultures. In Lebanon they've been ruining some old Roman foundations for building purposes and there's nothing we can do about it since it's their country. I don't worry about Greece doing any such thing, especially as it draws tourism. In many cases, I'm glad Europeans took artifacts back home because those places, such as Egypt, did not yet have the archeological skills and materials as did the Europeans and it was more likely that they would have been harmed just as ISIS has destroyed sculptures and buildings in Syria or the Taliban's destruction of the Buddhas at Bamiyan. You have a video of a Syrian frieze of a lion hunt. Should that go back to them? Now isn't a good time, maybe some day. How much will London's museum suffer for not having the Greek statues? Are they a huge draw to the museum? Unless pieces are sold off their only value is in what draws museum goers. If this modern museum in Athens looks out at the Parthenon, then I can see that if you have those statues right there that the experience would be more intimate...you could picture just sticking them inside the Parthenon along with the whole ambience, as Steven said, in the sunlight, etc. It's as close as you're going to get to its history. If you took the great statues out of Rome's piazzas and stuck them in a museum it would affect the whole ambience.
A Greek church in Cyprus got one of their mosaics back. It's not clear where the mosaic had been all this time: Looted rare 6th Century mosaic of St. Andrew returns home in Cyprus Apr, 25 2018 Author: Thema Newsroom A rare 6th century mosaic depicting St. Andrew taken from a looted church in Turkish-occupied northern Cyprus in the 1970s has been returned, Archbishop Chrysostomos II said on Monday. According to the Associated Press, the mosaic showing a bearded St. Andrew was one of several that went missing from the Church of Panayia Kanakaria after the Turkish army invaded Cyprus in 1974 and the island was split into ethnic Greek and Turkish sides. It is among only a handful of mosaics to have survived a period during the 8th and 9th centuries when many Orthodox icons were destroyed, AP says. _The Archbishop of Cyprus said that the rarity made the work a symbol of Cyprus’ “stolen heritage.”_ Most of the Kanakaria Church mosaics have now been repatriated with the exception of one of St. Luke. A Turkish art dealer was arrested a quarter-century later for selling the mosaic and others from Kanakaria Church, as well as artworks from other churches. Greek Cypriot art dealer Maria Paphiti located the St. Andrew mosaic in 2014 in London after another dealer asked her to verify the origin. When the dealer was informed that the mosaic belonged to the Cyprus Church, he agreed to return it as long as his expenses were covered, according to AP. Paphiti reached out to Greek Cypriot businessmen Roys Poyiadjis and Andreas Pittas for help covering the cost of the mosaic’s repatriation, which came to €50,000 euros ($61,200.) en.protothema.gr/looted-rare-6th-century-mosaic-of-st-andrew-returns-home-in-cyprus/
"It's their identity." WHOSE identity? .....These represent the legacy of ancient Greece and ancient Greek culture. The modern Greeks have no right to claim exclusive patrimony over this legacy. (And such a claim would be inaccurate anyway. What is Roman culture without its Greek influence? What is Renaissance Europe or Enlightenment Europe without this Hellenic legacy?) This ethno-racialist-nationalist cry of "It's our culture!" is something that should be opposed.
they took a lot of artifacts from egypt without a permit or any legal document they just took them, maybe egypt didnt have the skills back then to use them but now the largest museum in the world is in egypt housing over 40000 ancient egyptian artifacts and now we want our artifacts back just like the greeks want their artifacts
@@youssefarafa2812 ...Just wait until some radical Islamists come to power. (Look at what the Taliban did in Afghanistan or ISIS in Syria.) Indeed, the Rosetta Stone (which is how we are able to decipher the ancient Hieroglyphics) wasn't even discovered until the French showed up. Within weeks of arriving, they noticed the stone (which was being used as rubble material in a fortress wall) -- an item which centuries of literate Arabs either didn't notice or didn't care about.
The problem here is the word "owns". Nationalism often defines itself through the state's ownership of the past and its cultural artefacts. Asserting Greek "ownership" of the Parthenon marbles is falling into this categorization of cultural property as the preserve of the nation-state, and increasingly wanting to codify this nationalist view of art into law. Rather, perhaps we should think in terms of their curatorship; in what context are the most meaningful?
The marble comes from quarrys in Greece, the sculptures we're done by Greeks, the mathematics and architecture were done by Greeks, the labor was done by Greeks. What about that statement gives you the impression that anyone else can claim to "currate" those items?
@@sastrinidis What you did there was conflate two different senses of "The Greeks". The Greeks as a Nation-State and The Greeks as a culture or an ethnicity. The claim being made here is that the modern Nation-State has inalienable property rights over the material culture of the past. But the Nation-State is a nineteenth-century invention and its ownership of the national past is equally an invention. We don't own the past, we only have curatorship of it. The corollary of this "decolonisation" movement amongst museums is that it wants to make everything into a nationalistic totem. We should at least call it what it is.
@@kenzdawg So we Norwegians can buy Stonehenge from Britain then? That’s fine, since the people who built Stonehenge had nothing to do with today’s Anglo Saxon-Britons and were hardly even Celts. Anyways, since Britain is planning to build a tunnel under it I think we would be better suited to curate it.
@@Georges_Haussmann If there was a willing seller then sure, why not. A lot of Britain's cultural heritage is overseas, no one in Britain is having a conniption over it.
@@kenzdawg I’m sure there will be a willing seller, just ask someone from Ireland or something, pretty much what the British did in Greece. Also, it would probably be more fair to take the facade from Buckingham palace or the Big Ben clock, if we’re talking about something similar to the Acropolis.
In my opinion, the argument of to whom it belongs towers over all others, including who should keep it or who possesses it now. The arguments from the BM sound, quite frankly, like cognitive dissonance. And this is coming from someone who is neither Greek or British. So does it belong to Greece? There was no Greece when it was made. But guess what, there was and still is Athens. The men are obviously not the same, but the place and even some of the buildings are. Thank the BM for safe keeping it for the last 200 years. It's time to return it.
We record in the front of the work of art, not a reproduction. Sometimes we can partner with the museum and have access when it is closed and quiet, sometimes, we just brave the crowds which is wonderful in its own way. The British Museum is one of the most visited museums in the world and so it's quite loud. In fact, last time I was there, a few weeks ago, my watch warned me that the ambient volume of the museum was so loud, it might cause damage to my ears. We romanticize the museum experience as a quiet and contemplative place, and sometimes it is, but the Louvre, The British Museum, the Prado are now rarely that even in the off season.
@@smarthistoryvideos interesting. I just find it hard to listen with the constant chatter because of disability stuff. Maybe different mics or dub it over in post with the same thoughts that you said in person?
@@nightowlmuse729 nor was Greece until some years ago when after more than 200 years they made a safe place for them. It took them 2 centuries to build something to safekeep them!
@@joseeduardotschen9186yes Greece was occupied and enslaved by ottomans. And greeces economy is not based on colonialism. Still there are millions of marbles surviving more than fine. Greeks have the greatest respect for their cultural heritage. And as you said today the acropolis museum is one of the best museums in the world
There's definitely sensitivity surrounding the implications of possibly returning the Elgin marbles. Most works from major museums are illegitimately owned, especially the British Museum's collection. By returning the marbles, a precedent for returning work that isn't legitimately there's would be created, which is why other major museums (ex.Louvre) would not want the marbles returned. If these museums start returning all the objects they don't own then they'll quickly find that pretty much everything in their collections has to go. Therefore, it can be quite a sensitive subject in major museums. @@vinrusso821
Plain and simple. VANDALISM. In fact, the term "Elginism" as described in the dictionary as: Elginism (ĕl’gĭnĭz’əm) n. ... An act of cultural vandalism. Assembly of artifacts from other countries in imperial capitals. A term coined by the destructive actions of Lord Elgin who illegally decapitated and transported the Parthenon Marbles from Greece to London between 1801 and 1805.
There really isn't a question for me. The sculptures do not belong to Great Britain. They are plunder. This question is complex only from a colonial power point of view. Domination. Yes, you may have saved them. Thank you. Now give them back--Greece is ready to receive them.
For us that background noise is a reminder that art and people go together. This was recorded in front of the marbles in the British Museum, one of the most visited museums in the world. There are children running, excited visitors talking, and people just being themselves. Museums, whether in London or Athens, are wonderful places in this way. We think it makes sense to record our audio while looking at the actual object in the public space in which they reside, not while looking at photographs in a silent sound studio.
Britain will return the greek marbles because the same reason had to leave their colonies. For British Museum, and for many british people, those pieces (and many other) represent their past as empire, the time when they ruled the world. Its most about "pride" than art or history, its the remanent of those times and keeping them is a kind to show they have power yet... Years ago some people asked why Britain would leave India, South Africa, etc...
The best argument I can make for not returning the objects is Iraq. Babylonian art is scattered all over the world, in museums and private collections. When ISIS took over parts of Iraq, they intentionally destroyed many of the objects that were still in Iraq. Had more of the artifacts been returned, more would have been lost. Having these artifacts spread around actually protects them in many instances. Remember Greece has never been a stable nation and most of the best work was lost long ago.
It is a useless debate. It is up to the British Museum what it does with its sculptures. I agree that they have preserved something that would have probably been destroyed under the Ottoman muslim empire. My opinion is that they should keep them. Visiting the British Museum: free.
The other parts that were not stolen are still there so....i suggest that the UK stop stealing history from other countries (among other things) for once. Philotimo (Φιλότιμο) is hard to find these days.
No, they whouldn't. There is a misconception in Britain that greeks didn't appreciate the marbles, they didn't care about the protection etc. BUT how many of you know this: During the Greek war of Independence between Greece and Ottoman Empire, when the Turks occupied Acropolis and where fought by Greeks outside of the castle, they ran out of bullets and they took lead from the marbles. So the Greeks sent a letter as long as bullets that would be used AGAINST them, saying "Here are the bullets, do not touch the marbles" You shoud rethink your statement. The marbles are mistreated in Britain, in a place full of humidity. What if we stole stonehedge and spread it through out the world? Would you say the same? Also Elgin was the one who didn't care about the protection of the marble, by cutting them in pieces.
They were legally acquired from the territorial sovereign at a time when the Greek people regarded them as pagan and valueless. The move to London is solely responsibly for their salvation. If they had remained in Greece, they would have been sold to someone else, looted or destroyed by the pollution which has degraded so many of the ruins of Athens. I admit the Parthenon and it's frieze should be reunited, but, even in its current economic state, I suspect the Greeks wouldn't allow the Temple to be shipped to London.
Alec Blunden there is extensive evidence that the Marbles were not legally acquired. Summarizing very briefly: (i) only an authorization by the sultan himself could have allowed Elgin to remove the marbles, and he did not have such authorization; (ii) the document that is commonly regarded as evidence of prior authorization was not written by the sultan (and, in any event, we do not possess the original document, only two conflicting translations) and (iii) even if there had been an authorization, it would be void as Elgin and his team payed extensive bribes to local authorities in order to be able to remove the marbles.
Letícia Haertel surely you realise whether they were acquired legally or not doesn’t change the fact they would have been reduced to rubble if they remained in Greece 🇬🇷
@@screwyou7716 ....Yeah, they were doing really great when a Venetian shell was hurled into the building one day in the 1600s, after the Venetians discovered that the Turks were using the building as a powder magazine! ....The Acropolis was still an Ottoman fort when the Ottomans cheerfully gave permission for Elgin to remove the sculptural friezes. The Greeks formed a mob to stop Elgin, when they helped pry them off the Parthenon, crated them up for transport to the port of Piraeus and load them aboard ship, ....right? Oh. No. They didn't.
If the Parthenon Sculptures had been left in Greece they would have been sand by now. It is a case of who can be trusted to look after the Parthenon Sculptures.
Stealing someone's property only to have the building which originally hosts the item be demolished in a force majeure event never changes the fact that that act was thievery no matter if it has protected the stolen item from destruction.
The Marbles should stay at the British Museum. There is no obvious sense that any art object should ever be returned to its place of origin. Every great museum in the world contains objects from around the world, and so it should be. Back in Greece they still would be out of context, i.e., not on the Parthenon. The video failed to mention that in 449 BC Pericles, leader of imperialist Athens, “appropriated” money from the Delian League to build this version of the Parthenon, the original had been destroyed by the Persians. The imperial coffers at Delos were intended as a defence fund against the Persian threat in the region. It was not intended for the aggrandisement of imperial Athens. So, one could argue that imperial Athens never legitimately owned the Marbles.
@@sabilly1471 ..."The objects belong to the Greeks [because their ancestors bequeathed the Parthenon and its treasures to them]; they can do what they want with them." Well, if the Greeks agree with you that "they can do whatever they want with them", then THAT deprives them of any moral claim to them. THIS is the reason why biological descendants -- ethnic or racial descendants -- have no moral claim to the cultural achievements of their ancestors. They may turn out to be unworthy of them.
@@ecl1pseecl1psamen82 the colonizer mentality is alive and well. i don't expect their sons and their son's sons to understand unless they, too, experience what the colonized experienced.
I agree with you. Besides there didn’t exist a Greek State in those days until 1828. So who owned them during the Ottoman years? I’m no historian but my opinion is that they should stay in the BM.
When the sculptures were taken were appreciated only by the elite European class. The local countries were lackadaisical about their treasures if not downright oblivious. The Europeans spend millions to preserve the work of art in other nations and they get kicked in the derrière. Stop all funds for Archeologica digs in these countries that seek repatriation of their art work and see what happens. The restoration of the Parthenon is funded in part by the European Union and other associations no body pay attention to that. They ask for help but bite the hand that feed them. (See Getty Museum and Italy court case). All the big excavations were undertaken by Germany and England in the 1800 and 1900 read archeology history of Egypt and of the Middle East.
What happened to all the artifacts in the US? The Parthenon is just a fraction that Britain has stolen.Especially Mesopotamian, Assyrian, Greek. How about Napoleon???? You hate us cause you ain't us.
The British took advantage of the Greeks being under duress in order to obtain the marbles. Yes, they were better fit to care for them then and it's a good thing they did, but there is literally no reason for them to still be in Britain. They don't serve any sort of greater cultural purpose than they would if they were in Greece (where they belong). The British Museum just doesn't want to start giving back stolen items/items acquired under duress because they'll quickly find they legitimately own next to nothing i.e. no more museum. To put it nicely, they're crooks.
What an intelligent and balanced way to discuss a very sensitive matter. Discussion and intelligent reasoning and not argument, where either side only hears their own points, is the proper way to resolve complex issues. I’m sure the ancient Greeks would concur.
During the Greek War of Independence...when the Greeks placed the Ottoman-Held Acropolis under Siege, the Turks began destroying the Parthenon Temple by tearing apart her Columns as to be able to pull out the Lead from inside them to be able to make more Bullets. In seeing this, the Greeks themselves offered their besieged enemies their own Munitions (in essence, to shoot at them) if they would stop tearing apart their Monument. Mind you, the Majority of these Greek Fighters, at that time, had almost absolutely little to a non-existent Education...yet they still felt something inside their Hearts to protect this Monument, even if it meant putting their own lives in Danger
An amazing story--thanks for sharing it.
@@beverlykandraceffinger3764 I studied this incident years ago, because some people actually claimed that it was a myth. But it ACTUALLY HAPPENED 😅 There are official documents talking about the incident & the negotiations. If I dig into my archives one day, I will share them.
God Bless! 💙👍🏻
Oh come on. This story is nothing but nonsensical and apocryphal storytelling masking as history. Take your chauvinistic nationalism elsewhere - and not the comments of an art history video. Your lying attempt to support Greece's genuine and rightful claim to all of the Parthenon sculptures devalues that claim. The fact that you were able to fool at least 42 people into believing what historians very broadly consider to be a propagandistic anecdote for the Megali Idea is disheartening itself.
The British Museum should make casts of everything then send the originals back to Greece.
No. ...They shouldn't.
@@MrJm323 Why not? they are stolen by a person named Thomas Bruce Earl of Elgin
@Morgoth Elgin had not a written prove of purchase.Ottoman empire had a law forbidding the sale of antiquities
@david Ironically (and offensively) when Greece became independent and started requesting the marbles back, the UK sent them plaster casts of the sculptures (which are today on the acropolis museum). If the UK considered these plasts to be a fair substitute for the marbles, they could as well return the marbles to Greece and expose their own casts in the museum.
@morgoth there are two translations of the alleged permission, one published in the UK parliamentary select committee report which recommended the purchase of the marbles from lord Elgin and another published by scholar which acquired this translation from the family of one member of Elgin’s team. Nevertheless it has been already proven by many scholars that (i) only a firman (specific document issued by the ottoman sultan) could authorize Elgin’s taking and (ii) that the document that the translations refer to is not a firman. In fact, the dissemination of these facts led the British museum to change its strategy to defend its keeping of the marbles, shifting from a legal argument on ownership to the argument of the importance of universal museums. In any event, even if there had been any written authorization, it would be legally void considering the huge amount of bribes Elgin and his team payed to ottoman authorities (Elgin himself admitted to the extensive bribing when interviewed by the parliamentary select committee).
It's time for these sculptures to be back where they belong; Athens.
Especially now that the U.K. left the E.U...
a didnt relise britain was in the eu in 1812
@@kopynd1 No, it was in imperial power applying the dogma "might is right". Britain is no longer the almighty empire it was and the fact that it left the EU just shows how difficult it is for the UK to come to terms with not being that special anymore.
The sculptures belong in Athens. Not because of any nationalistic agenda, but because that is their home.
Well, the new Museum of Acropolis was recently voted as the best museum in Europe I think, in terms of preservation and condition of these important pieces of History. i think it is quite clear that there is a safe place for the Marbles to be returned , exactly where the belong .
The Iris? torso always gets my attention - love the drapery and pose. I wish I could see the rest of whoever she is.
As for Elgin, the arguments on both sides are compelling. I appreciate the idea of a global culture, being able to see ancient history from all over the world in one place. Giving people the opportunity to learn about times and societies beyond their own. If more lives are (positively) touched and affected that way... having the sculptures in museums can't be so bad.
is this a sentence?@@MrNixtt
Il n'a pas préservé les sculptures : elles ont plus été abimées à Londres avec la solution industrielle.
"divorced from the building they came from" yes, a building still standing. They should absolutely be returned - there is no doubt. They won't because it will start a *_LANDSLIDE_* that will topple the museum. And the inevitable ripple effect terrifies museums across the world. To inspect them up close is a privilege, but they were made for a specific purpose, one they can still fulfil, way up there in situ, looking out over Athens. There will always be times of instability around the world, going forward museums could aid each other for the sake of cultural history, instead of insisting on holding onto vestiges of colonialism and vandalism.
Beautifully and logically expressed here. Despite the fact that cast's have been made and send to Athens there is also incredible 3D scanning technology and superb 3D printing or even sculpting technology that can reproduce them to the power of micrometer the British museum is practically also refusing the offer of having new artifacts send from Greece regularly. And I wonder if that fact isn't it serving better the notion of a Universal Museum which has the ability to show off to the world new artifacts?
Imagine the Statue of Liberty in the Beijing Museum. Except for the SoL has only been in American possession for a little over a hundred years while the Parthenon marbles were in Athens for thousands of years. Copies should be made as per the original agreement and the originals returned to their home in Greece.
This seems like such a logical solution, I'm surprised nobody with more power has at least suggested it. Surely we have the means today to copy the sculptures and transport them without damaging the originals.
@@camilogonzalez8140it was suggested but uk ignore reality
Thank you for not telling us what THE ANSWER to this dilemma is.
I am currently very much angry on this Lord Elgin. As you know, Brits were once the masters of my country India. Lord Elgin's son was a Viceroy in India. Unfortunately, there's a road in kolkata named after him.
Unusual to see a fair and balanced take on this subject
Elginism, noun: an act of cultural vandalism, in this case imperial.
Thank you both, σας ευχαριστώ και τους δύο, Steven and Beth, for your pragmatic and balanced presentation here of this issue, the issue where the Hellenic government has been asking for the repatriation of our cultural legacy for two hundred years. I kind of get the impression that you may be more on the side of these αγάλματα being returned home, although you are professionally and conscientiously careful to remain neutral on this in how you present this herein, imo.
Firstly there were (and are) no firmans. All that remains is a translation of the supposed second one which could have been created from anywhence. Secondly we greeks were then little more than slaves when we were still under the ottoman -yolk- , sorry, yoke. We had little power to control what the turkmen decided or were manipulated into doing or not seeing or allowing.
Last year the UK Guardian newspaper officially changed its editorial stance on the position of the Parthenon marbles to those being repatriated. 70% of the British peoples now agree with this opinion. Boris the student once agreed with this too, yet Boris the now once-PM stayed stumm on it. Last year a UNESCO panel decided that the marbles should be repatriated. It took only two days for the British to turn them down.
I will finish by saying that the sage american archaeologist Joan Breton Connelly wrote an brilliant book named "The Parthenon Enigma". in it she wisely kept this issue back until the appendices and therein stated that she believed the marbles belong in Hellas with the greek people in the museum built especially to house them and in the correct orders they are supposed to be displayed as.🧿💙
@@fredericktarr8266 Don't be so hard on us, my friend. Besides, Istanbul has hardly any Greeks living in it any more. If we retook it then where would all the Turks go? We don't want another forced diaspora on religious and ethnic grounds again now, do we?
I'm British and from London and have grown up benefitting from seeing the marbles and everything else in the British Museum. Which is wonderful and FREE to all who are able to visit. That said, the marbles belong in Athens, as near to Parthenon as they can be. The Acropolis is an amazing site and worthy of being "universal" as much as a museum in London. I hope the marbles go on show there, free as well (you currently need to pay about 20 Euros/USD to enter the Parthenon and surrounding Acropolis, although the new museum of the Acropolis has 10,00 €/$ entry). If it's universal and not "owned" it should be free - they can offer premium tickets to jump the queue if extra funds are needed.
@@L-mo It does, from the moment you enjoy the economy your nation. A nation based on piracy, slavery and the art of taking advantage (forced advantage) of others who were pasing a weak period. Greece and the Partenon are just a simbol of what you are and what you represent fot the rest of the world.
@@andresalves2762 sorry, but being Uruguayan makes you complicit in the torture, murders, kidnappings and disappearances of the Uruguayan dictator Bordaberry and your government. Better assume responsibility in the barbaric morals of your people. I only stole some marble - you’re a monster 😂
@@L-mo Of course we were responsable, thats why I fought against it, thats why my father was tortured and my uncle dissapered. Thats why when I was 16 years old I fought against the regime. Thats why Bordaberry died in prision, convicted of his crimes. Although every single crime of the militar regime was against our own people (with British support)
Your disgusting.
Maybe you know very little of British history, you are disgusting
@@Rousseau4469 are you seriously comparing restoration done a century ago to modern restoration conducted today with lasers?
If they wasn’t taken they would not now exist. If they protected the Parthenon and made it a museum I don’t see why they should not be returned
Very easy to answer : Greece!
But it’s now a part of England’s history.
Should the US give back their land to the indigenous tribes that were there before them? After all, the British Museum is older than the US. What about all the other museums around the world? Should everyone return all the items paid for from antique shops to the original owner’s descendants? The Swiss open their vaults? Where do you draw the line?
Think very carefully when you set a precedent.
@@catherinerobilliard7662 YES,the US should give back their land to the indigenous tribes ,it is stolen and spill with blood.Everyone should return all the items to the original owner’s .What about if someone stole a rock from stonehenge and greeks paid and buy and put it in a museum ,that will then be a part of greek history?Think very carefully when you set a precedent.
No so fast...
@@andreawalker5891 In what way is it "a part of England's history" may I ask? The Elgin Marbles are a collection of Classical Greek marble sculptures made under the supervision of the architect and sculptor Phidias and his assistants. Your "argument" immediately falls apart the moment you consider the fact that the marbles happen to have been made in Greece and range from depictions of Hellenic battles to literal pieces of the Parthenon. Thus, making it Greek history and not English. This assertion is so obvious and logical, that it absolutely bewilders me how you were able to be so oblivious to it.
Think it would be almost too generous towards England if the stolen goods from Greece but also India and Africa were returned with no payment of the accrued interest.
I am in Athens now at the Parthenon. It’s so sad to see how much was stollen from this beautiful site.
*brought
@@nicoangel690 Legally ours theres a reason no international court says we have to return them because their ours.
@@lilbrit1019 Because you are a Cappin @ss FOOL. Bye now Clown! 🤡✌️
@@SpartanLeonidas1821 im not though. Official greek government policy is to say their not stolen because they know their not
@@lilbrit1019 If Lord Elgin purchased them legally, why then does not all the countries recognize British ownership of the Parthenon Marbles ? At least those display in London ? And neither UNESCO? Why are there commitees, even in Great Britain, for the definitive return and reunification of these friezes in Greece? Are all these people wrong? And for the court, as you know, the UK is one of the most powerfull states in the world and will likely be pushing for jugement.
The marbles should be returned!
The answer to this question is simple, these works of art should be sent back to the rightful owners. The nation and people of Greece.
Create exact copies of the Elgin marbles with marble from the original quarry and pay for the installation in the Parthenon.
They should do that anyway, and give them back. Arguably with today’s technology, you could make two sets of exact copies, and leave one set in the BM
Please don’t call them Elgin marbles. It is a disgrace for the marbles
It would be wonderful if the remaining sculptures in Greece could be moved to the British Museum and be finally reunited with Lord Elgin's originals.
Don't forget to take your medication every night.
@@giorgosm3270 Will do.
And the Nashville Parthenon p?!
The Nashville Parthenon is a great reminder of how important the classical tradition remained. Plus its fun to visit.
It belongs in Greece
I'm sure it does but it's owned by the British museum
@@t.wcharles2171 i dont buy a lamp and keep it at the store do i?
@@lilbrit1019 no you don't you take it home and put it on display
@@t.wcharles2171 exactly
Good explanation. Flip a drachma?
They didn't want to get divorced :*(
How about the Pergamum altar which is now in a museum in Berlin -arguably just as impressive as the Parthenon frieze but the only problem is that the Hellenistic kingdom of Pergamum where this glorious complex was built is now in Turkey -at the time when the Germans were allowed to take these sculptures and buildings. Imperial Germany of the second Reich was in alliance with the decaying Ottoman Empire
To be logical Greece should also demand the return of these things from Germany.But where will it ever end???Mona Lisa should be returned to Italy from the Louvre etc etc -as one critic once said it will be like the resurrection of bodies at the Last Judgement -what bit of a body belongs to which body as over the centuries the molecules of one body has been co-opted into the tissues of another.
It's like stealing your baby born in Athens and raising the baby in England!!! Yes the baby needs to come home, where she was born!!!!
The British museum claims that the sculptures were ‘’legally purchased’’
From whom? From the Ottomans?
And what authority had the ottomans on our monuments?
Parthenon sculptures must return to Greece
Nike of Samothraki and Aphrodite of Mílos must return to Greece
The Pergamum Altar must return to Greece
The Metropolitan museum in NYC is fullllll of Greek artefacts as well! Stolen artefacts!
The must return to Greece!
If you want to fill your museums fill the with your country’s history!
Don’t steal monuments from other countries!
It is different to borrow something some some time but it’s different to steal it and claim it as your own!
They owned Greece and all her lands sorry their ours you have no claim to them but they were made in Greece. Britain owns them and no legal grounds demand they are more greek then british
@Zuul Gatekeeper Can you show me who these Athens Authority Greeks were that sold the Parthenon Marbles?
Man, that sounds quite delusional & revisionist to me. Sounds like some people will think of anything, no matter how outrageous, to try and justify these cultural thefts.
A lot of things must return to Greece. Many artefacts were stolen. I don't know what pride they get in keeping other's things illegally. As for the Ottomans, well, they did have authority over Greece back then. But that doesn't change the fact that those sculptures belong to Parthenon.
And here you have one person who indeed wants to start emptying museums all over the world in his demand to "return" Greek items. Critics of Elgin say this would not be the case but already in this thread are people demanding the return of items to India, Egypt and Kenya. We were told this wouldn't happen.
I visited the Acropolis of Athens in 1973. I took many many photos of the Parthenon. I visited the British Museum in 1975. There, I photographed all of the Elgin Marbles. I used these combined photos when teaching Humanities and Ancient History. If you have seen the Parthenon, you know that the position of the ancient frieze makes what remains of it very difficult to see from stylobate (floor) level. Placing the frieze at eye level, as in the British Museum, makes viewing it comfortably possible. The same also goes for the sculptures of the pediment and the metopes. Only in recent years have the Greeks built a museum to house these sculptures for easy viewing. I would say that the British have performed a valuable service. Who knows what would have happened to these works of art if they had been left in situ. Considering modern advances in making replicas, it might be a good time to return the originals to Greece and replace them with copies in the British Museum.
Thoughtfully said. I think people make the mistake (intentionally at times?) of placing judgement on people and things that happened hundreds of years ago through the lens of current times. Maybe it is time to make copies and send most or all of it back, but those who ‘cherry pick’ facts and ascribe motive for their own political purposes do not help the discussion at all.
All art should be given back
Phidias, Pericles and the rest of the ancient Athenians are dead.
(Probably just as well; Pericles would likely be up on charges of plundering the Delos treasury to finance the re-construction of the Parthenon.)
Give the archaeologists their due, and leave ancient art in the hands of competent conservators who are supposed to serve a public trust.
@@MrJm323Greece has many of them and the marbles belongs to them
@@MrNixtt Britain has many of them (many of which they purchased from the sovereign rulers of Greece at the time -- the Caliph), and those belong to them.
@@MrJm323 the caliph? Haha the country was occupied? Open a dictionary if you don’t know what this means. But your colonialist mind is hard to comprehend fine concepts like that
@@MrNixtt Then, by that definition, every country is "occupied".
The Turks were not especially good stewards of the Greek artistic and cultural legacy. (For instance the greatest damage to have occurred to the Parthenon, by far, was the result of the Turk's decision to use the Acropolis as a fort and especially to use the Parthenon as a powder magazine.) ...And the Greeks were simply not in any position to guard this legacy. (I'll omit to mention that, to some extent, the Christian Greeks even REPUDIATED their ancient pagan legacy -- going so far as to repudiate the very name "Hellene" as a self-descriptor, in favor of "Rhomaion". They only went back to calling themselves "Hellenes" because Western Europeans held the ancient, pre-Christian Greeks in such high esteem.)
It was a good thing that Lord Elgin had arranged to remove many of the marble reliefs from the Parthenon (with the cooperation of the Turks and practical help of Greek labor).
Modern Greeks should show more GRATITUDE to the British.
It's their identity. They had so much destroyed in wars and should probably have them back, though I'm doubting that will happen. For the rest of us, it's world history and the development of civilizations and cultures. In Lebanon they've been ruining some old Roman foundations for building purposes and there's nothing we can do about it since it's their country. I don't worry about Greece doing any such thing, especially as it draws tourism. In many cases, I'm glad Europeans took artifacts back home because those places, such as Egypt, did not yet have the archeological skills and materials as did the Europeans and it was more likely that they would have been harmed just as ISIS has destroyed sculptures and buildings in Syria or the Taliban's destruction of the Buddhas at Bamiyan.
You have a video of a Syrian frieze of a lion hunt. Should that go back to them? Now isn't a good time, maybe some day. How much will London's museum suffer for not having the Greek statues? Are they a huge draw to the museum? Unless pieces are sold off their only value is in what draws museum goers. If this modern museum in Athens looks out at the Parthenon, then I can see that if you have those statues right there that the experience would be more intimate...you could picture just sticking them inside the Parthenon along with the whole ambience, as Steven said, in the sunlight, etc. It's as close as you're going to get to its history. If you took the great statues out of Rome's piazzas and stuck them in a museum it would affect the whole ambience.
A Greek church in Cyprus got one of their mosaics back. It's not clear where the mosaic had been all this time:
Looted rare 6th Century mosaic of St. Andrew returns home in Cyprus
Apr, 25 2018
Author: Thema Newsroom
A rare 6th century mosaic depicting St. Andrew taken from a looted church in Turkish-occupied northern Cyprus in the 1970s has been returned, Archbishop Chrysostomos II said on Monday.
According to the Associated Press, the mosaic showing a bearded St. Andrew was one of several that went missing from the Church of Panayia Kanakaria after the Turkish army invaded Cyprus in 1974 and the island was split into ethnic Greek and Turkish sides.
It is among only a handful of mosaics to have survived a period during the 8th and 9th centuries when many Orthodox icons were destroyed, AP says.
_The Archbishop of Cyprus said that the rarity made the work a symbol of Cyprus’ “stolen heritage.”_
Most of the Kanakaria Church mosaics have now been repatriated with the exception of one of St. Luke. A Turkish art dealer was arrested a quarter-century later for selling the mosaic and others from Kanakaria Church, as well as artworks from other churches.
Greek Cypriot art dealer Maria Paphiti located the St. Andrew mosaic in 2014 in London after another dealer asked her to verify the origin. When the dealer was informed that the mosaic belonged to the Cyprus Church, he agreed to return it as long as his expenses were covered, according to AP.
Paphiti reached out to Greek Cypriot businessmen Roys Poyiadjis and Andreas Pittas for help covering the cost of the mosaic’s repatriation, which came to €50,000 euros ($61,200.)
en.protothema.gr/looted-rare-6th-century-mosaic-of-st-andrew-returns-home-in-cyprus/
"It's their identity."
WHOSE identity? .....These represent the legacy of ancient Greece and ancient Greek culture. The modern Greeks have no right to claim exclusive patrimony over this legacy. (And such a claim would be inaccurate anyway. What is Roman culture without its Greek influence? What is Renaissance Europe or Enlightenment Europe without this Hellenic legacy?)
This ethno-racialist-nationalist cry of "It's our culture!" is something that should be opposed.
@@MrJm323 They are Greek marbles so they are Greek legacy of course!!!
they took a lot of artifacts from egypt without a permit or any legal document they just took them, maybe egypt didnt have the skills back then to use them but now the largest museum in the world is in egypt housing over 40000 ancient egyptian artifacts and now we want our artifacts back just like the greeks want their artifacts
@@youssefarafa2812 ...Just wait until some radical Islamists come to power. (Look at what the Taliban did in Afghanistan or ISIS in Syria.)
Indeed, the Rosetta Stone (which is how we are able to decipher the ancient Hieroglyphics) wasn't even discovered until the French showed up. Within weeks of arriving, they noticed the stone (which was being used as rubble material in a fortress wall) -- an item which centuries of literate Arabs either didn't notice or didn't care about.
The problem here is the word "owns". Nationalism often defines itself through the state's ownership of the past and its cultural artefacts. Asserting Greek "ownership" of the Parthenon marbles is falling into this categorization of cultural property as the preserve of the nation-state, and increasingly wanting to codify this nationalist view of art into law. Rather, perhaps we should think in terms of their curatorship; in what context are the most meaningful?
The marble comes from quarrys in Greece, the sculptures we're done by Greeks, the mathematics and architecture were done by Greeks, the labor was done by Greeks. What about that statement gives you the impression that anyone else can claim to "currate" those items?
@@sastrinidis What you did there was conflate two different senses of "The Greeks". The Greeks as a Nation-State and The Greeks as a culture or an ethnicity. The claim being made here is that the modern Nation-State has inalienable property rights over the material culture of the past. But the Nation-State is a nineteenth-century invention and its ownership of the national past is equally an invention. We don't own the past, we only have curatorship of it.
The corollary of this "decolonisation" movement amongst museums is that it wants to make everything into a nationalistic totem. We should at least call it what it is.
@@kenzdawg So we Norwegians can buy Stonehenge from Britain then? That’s fine, since the people who built Stonehenge had nothing to do with today’s Anglo Saxon-Britons and were hardly even Celts. Anyways, since Britain is planning to build a tunnel under it I think we would be better suited to curate it.
@@Georges_Haussmann If there was a willing seller then sure, why not. A lot of Britain's cultural heritage is overseas, no one in Britain is having a conniption over it.
@@kenzdawg I’m sure there will be a willing seller, just ask someone from Ireland or something, pretty much what the British did in Greece. Also, it would probably be more fair to take the facade from Buckingham palace or the Big Ben clock, if we’re talking about something similar to the Acropolis.
In my opinion, the argument of to whom it belongs towers over all others, including who should keep it or who possesses it now.
The arguments from the BM sound, quite frankly, like cognitive dissonance.
And this is coming from someone who is neither Greek or British.
So does it belong to Greece? There was no Greece when it was made. But guess what, there was and still is Athens. The men are obviously not the same, but the place and even some of the buildings are.
Thank the BM for safe keeping it for the last 200 years. It's time to return it.
why is there so much background noise? Do you guys need a studio?
We record in the front of the work of art, not a reproduction. Sometimes we can partner with the museum and have access when it is closed and quiet, sometimes, we just brave the crowds which is wonderful in its own way. The British Museum is one of the most visited museums in the world and so it's quite loud. In fact, last time I was there, a few weeks ago, my watch warned me that the ambient volume of the museum was so loud, it might cause damage to my ears. We romanticize the museum experience as a quiet and contemplative place, and sometimes it is, but the Louvre, The British Museum, the Prado are now rarely that even in the off season.
@@smarthistoryvideos interesting. I just find it hard to listen with the constant chatter because of disability stuff. Maybe different mics or dub it over in post with the same thoughts that you said in person?
One option is that you could access the transcript, it might help. Thanks for reaching out.
After seeing what happened at passagarde, it's best to keep such Priceless items where their safest
@@nightowlmuse729 nor was Greece until some years ago when after more than 200 years they made a safe place for them. It took them 2 centuries to build something to safekeep them!
@@joseeduardotschen9186yes Greece was occupied and enslaved by ottomans. And greeces economy is not based on colonialism. Still there are millions of marbles surviving more than fine. Greeks have the greatest respect for their cultural heritage. And as you said today the acropolis museum is one of the best museums in the world
The people regardless of who manages it.
I can't see any good argument to keep the them in the UK.
GREECE!!!
This is a VERY sensitive subject. I don’t see them being returned any time soon.
There's definitely sensitivity surrounding the implications of possibly returning the Elgin marbles. Most works from major museums are illegitimately owned, especially the British Museum's collection. By returning the marbles, a precedent for returning work that isn't legitimately there's would be created, which is why other major museums (ex.Louvre) would not want the marbles returned. If these museums start returning all the objects they don't own then they'll quickly find that pretty much everything in their collections has to go. Therefore, it can be quite a sensitive subject in major museums. @@vinrusso821
@@strawberry.moonink If museums have stolen things of course they must be returned to their homelands.
@@mirtiamirtia4521 but they cannot under the British museum act 1963 which states essentially that nothing can be given away not even in good faith
@@t.wcharles2171 Every decision can change if the order is to be changed.
Plain and simple. VANDALISM. In fact, the term "Elginism" as described in the dictionary as:
Elginism (ĕl’gĭnĭz’əm) n. ... An act of cultural vandalism. Assembly of artifacts from other countries in imperial capitals. A term coined by the destructive actions of Lord Elgin who illegally decapitated and transported the Parthenon Marbles from Greece to London between 1801 and 1805.
Who owns these? The British museum
Who do they belong to? The Gods.
There really isn't a question for me. The sculptures do not belong to Great Britain. They are plunder. This question is complex only from a colonial power point of view. Domination. Yes, you may have saved them. Thank you. Now give them back--Greece is ready to receive them.
Backround crowd noise distracting, and unpleasant. PLEASE remove.
For us that background noise is a reminder that art and people go together. This was recorded in front of the marbles in the British Museum, one of the most visited museums in the world. There are children running, excited visitors talking, and people just being themselves. Museums, whether in London or Athens, are wonderful places in this way. We think it makes sense to record our audio while looking at the actual object in the public space in which they reside, not while looking at photographs in a silent sound studio.
Britain will not return them. Why would they? To what benefit?
Philotimo (Φιλότιμο)
Exactly! Some say “friendship”, but what does Britain gain from that since Greece cannot give anything back.
@@darrenr49 I agree that they should stay in the BM! Otherwise I wouldn’t have seen them.
@@joseeduardotschen9186 they couldn't do that anyway search British museum act 1963
Britain will return the greek marbles because the same reason had to leave their colonies. For British Museum, and for many british people, those pieces (and many other) represent their past as empire, the time when they ruled the world. Its most about "pride" than art or history, its the remanent of those times and keeping them is a kind to show they have power yet... Years ago some people asked why Britain would leave India, South Africa, etc...
Each part should stay where it is right now. After all they can’t put it back together on the Parthenon.
Yes ,they can put it together back on the Parthenon.Who told you that they can’t?
It's now property of the uk it's ours now ,we've looked after it and visitors are very pleased to see it so well looked after,
merlin the magician agreed to the victor go the spoils. If Greece wants them back get big and take them back.
@@nicholasturner7931 colonizer mentality smh
Rembrandt Escultura reality mentality, if a country/ empire is strong enough it takes what it wants and keeps what it has. Period
The best argument I can make for not returning the objects is Iraq. Babylonian art is scattered all over the world, in museums and private collections. When ISIS took over parts of Iraq, they intentionally destroyed many of the objects that were still in Iraq. Had more of the artifacts been returned, more would have been lost.
Having these artifacts spread around actually protects them in many instances.
Remember Greece has never been a stable nation and most of the best work was lost long ago.
It is a useless debate. It is up to the British Museum what it does with its sculptures. I agree that they have preserved something that would have probably been destroyed under the Ottoman muslim empire. My opinion is that they should keep them. Visiting the British Museum: free.
Why do you assume the Ottomans would destroy it? By far the largest damage to the temple was caused by the Venetian who literally bombed it.
The other parts that were not stolen are still there so....i suggest that the UK stop stealing history from other countries (among other things) for once.
Philotimo (Φιλότιμο) is hard to find these days.
No, they whouldn't. There is a misconception in Britain that greeks didn't appreciate the marbles, they didn't care about the protection etc. BUT how many of you know this: During the Greek war of Independence between Greece and Ottoman Empire, when the Turks occupied Acropolis and where fought by Greeks outside of the castle, they ran out of bullets and they took lead from the marbles. So the Greeks sent a letter as long as bullets that would be used AGAINST them, saying "Here are the bullets, do not touch the marbles"
You shoud rethink your statement. The marbles are mistreated in Britain, in a place full of humidity. What if we stole stonehedge and spread it through out the world? Would you say the same? Also Elgin was the one who didn't care about the protection of the marble, by cutting them in pieces.
They were legally acquired from the territorial sovereign at a time when the Greek people regarded them as pagan and valueless. The move to London is solely responsibly for their salvation. If they had remained in Greece, they would have been sold to someone else, looted or destroyed by the pollution which has degraded so many of the ruins of Athens. I admit the Parthenon and it's frieze should be reunited, but, even in its current economic state, I suspect the Greeks wouldn't allow the Temple to be shipped to London.
Alec Blunden there is extensive evidence that the Marbles were not legally acquired. Summarizing very briefly: (i) only an authorization by the sultan himself could have allowed Elgin to remove the marbles, and he did not have such authorization; (ii) the document that is commonly regarded as evidence of prior authorization was not written by the sultan (and, in any event, we do not possess the original document, only two conflicting translations) and (iii) even if there had been an authorization, it would be void as Elgin and his team payed extensive bribes to local authorities in order to be able to remove the marbles.
Letícia Haertel surely you realise whether they were acquired legally or not doesn’t change the fact they would have been reduced to rubble if they remained in Greece 🇬🇷
@@mazzy_vc Usually burnt to get lime for buildings for centuries.
@@mazzy_vc The marbles had survibed for 2.300 years, i'm sure if Elgin didnt stole them they would still be at the top of Acropolis.
@@screwyou7716 ....Yeah, they were doing really great when a Venetian shell was hurled into the building one day in the 1600s, after the Venetians discovered that the Turks were using the building as a powder magazine! ....The Acropolis was still an Ottoman fort when the Ottomans cheerfully gave permission for Elgin to remove the sculptural friezes.
The Greeks formed a mob to stop Elgin, when they helped pry them off the Parthenon, crated them up for transport to the port of Piraeus and load them aboard ship, ....right?
Oh. No. They didn't.
If the Parthenon Sculptures had been left in Greece they would have been sand by now. It is a case of who can be trusted to look after the Parthenon Sculptures.
mipmipmipmipmip unfortunately Greece went down hill with its social structure and the UK improved
Stealing someone's property only to have the building which originally hosts the item be demolished in a force majeure event never changes the fact that that act was thievery no matter if it has protected the stolen item from destruction.
I suppose we can disregard the 2500 years that they stood in the Parthenon?
Greece, didn’t you see the video?
The Marbles should stay at the British Museum. There is no obvious sense that any art object should ever be returned to its place of origin. Every great museum in the world contains objects from around the world, and so it should be. Back in Greece they still would be out of context, i.e., not on the Parthenon.
The video failed to mention that in 449 BC Pericles, leader of imperialist Athens, “appropriated” money from the Delian League to build this version of the Parthenon, the original had been destroyed by the Persians. The imperial coffers at Delos were intended as a defence fund against the Persian threat in the region. It was not intended for the aggrandisement of imperial Athens. So, one could argue that imperial Athens never legitimately owned the Marbles.
@@sabilly1471 ..."The objects belong to the Greeks [because their ancestors bequeathed the Parthenon and its treasures to them]; they can do what they want with them."
Well, if the Greeks agree with you that "they can do whatever they want with them", then THAT deprives them of any moral claim to them.
THIS is the reason why biological descendants -- ethnic or racial descendants -- have no moral claim to the cultural achievements of their ancestors. They may turn out to be unworthy of them.
@@ecl1pseecl1psamen82 the colonizer mentality is alive and well. i don't expect their sons and their son's sons to understand unless they, too, experience what the colonized experienced.
Philotimo (Φιλότιμο) is hard to find these days.
I agree with you. Besides there didn’t exist a Greek State in those days until 1828. So who owned them during the Ottoman years? I’m no historian but my opinion is that they should stay in the BM.
When the sculptures were taken were appreciated only by the elite European class. The local countries were lackadaisical about their treasures if not downright oblivious. The Europeans spend millions to preserve the work of art in other nations and they get kicked in the derrière. Stop all funds for Archeologica digs in these countries that seek repatriation of their art work and see what happens. The restoration of the Parthenon is funded in part by the European Union and other associations no body pay attention to that. They ask for help but bite the hand that feed them. (See Getty Museum and Italy court case). All the big excavations were undertaken by Germany and England in the 1800 and 1900 read archeology history of Egypt and of the Middle East.
What happened to all the artifacts in the US? The Parthenon is just a fraction that Britain has stolen.Especially Mesopotamian, Assyrian, Greek. How about Napoleon???? You hate us cause you ain't us.
The British took advantage of the Greeks being under duress in order to obtain the marbles. Yes, they were better fit to care for them then and it's a good thing they did, but there is literally no reason for them to still be in Britain. They don't serve any sort of greater cultural purpose than they would if they were in Greece (where they belong). The British Museum just doesn't want to start giving back stolen items/items acquired under duress because they'll quickly find they legitimately own next to nothing i.e. no more museum. To put it nicely, they're crooks.