The Greater Evil Paradox - A Code Geass Analysis
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- čas přidán 13. 08. 2023
- During one scene in code geass, Lelouch poses an interesting question. Would you commit a greater act of evil in order to triumph over an existing evil, or would you remain on the side of justice even if it means submitting to the evil? It's an interesting question, and we'll discuss it today.
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Hey guys! I'm loving the discussion here, and remember to keep it civil. Also, if you're hungry for more, you can check out my next video, also on Code Geass!.
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I think there's one detail here that's important about Lelouch's philosophy. He doesn't believe that the end justifies the means, but rather HE HAS TO. Like Suzaku, he hasn't fully understood the consequences of his actions in the start but so much blood was shed that he forced himself to believe that after all this chaos he made it will be justified somehow. It's a nuance that i love about him
Yeah, both Lelouche and Suzaku have their views challenged and developed as the series goes on, until eventually they're walking the same path (which is just so great). It's never as simple as Lelouche believes X and Suzaku believes Y, unless you're only looking at a snapshot of one point in the series.
No, Lelouch DOES understand that his actions will have consequences (he just didn't realize how hard the personal losses will hit him), but there is always loss and sacrifice in war. Freedom isn't free. Suzaku is just a delusional self-righteous idiot who wants the peace of slavery, and will even fight and kill to keep the Japanese enslaved to Britannia because he thinks that will ultimately save more lives. And then he makes it personal after losing Euphie but convinces himself that what he's doing isn't personal.
"He doesn't believe that the end justifies the means, but rather HE HAS TO."
So, you saying that HE HAS TO do something to achieve a certain end ... In other worlds, THE END he desires JUSTIFY why he has to use THE MEANS.
I love this thought. Sometimes, people have no choice but to do what they have to do.
@@ViewerOnline101 No, he doesn’t want slavery for his people. He wants his people free and treated equally. He just believes that he can change their minds about the Japanese’s by working inside and gaining their trust. This idea sounds silly but this has work in real life. People have changed the system but the issue it takes year or even decades to see this through. Lelouch only used the Japanese to reach his goals . Using force to take back japan would not work in the long run even if japan won back the country they would still face more attacks In the future. War would rage on for years of the blacks knights . If they could last that longAnd no he could not handle the consequences of the killing of Sheryl dad . He even ponders about it for a whole episode and questions himself . He does all of this for his sister to have a better life And revenge’s for his mother .the idea is also flaw for he thinks only for sister happiness not the worlds til he releases that his sister wish was for world to better for everyone not just her . This is after he thinks she died . They are both both right and wrong. That is why they work together to trick the world cause they knew it was the only way for a better future
Lelouch has a more self-sacrificing approach, taking the burden of guilt so others can find happiness which emphasized at the ending, while Suzaku is more self-fulfilling, not stooping to the enemies' level to uphold justice, and holding on to his innocence. In the end, they both came together to make the world better.
Suzaku doesn't do it because of the guilt he carries from having taken matters into his hands the first time and expecting death for doing so even though it was potentially against the wishes of the masses.
@@ChaddyFantomethat true he killed his own dad and the result is disasterous
"In my case, I commit evil in order to destroy the greater evil." - Zero
I personally believe that both Lelouch and Suzaku fit under the "ends justifies the means". Lelouch is a bit more obvious as to why. As For Suzaku, my point is that he wants to have changed but from within, except that by doing so, needs to hold himself back so that he doesn't break the rules and that leads to inaction, which is an action and a choice. His means are that he personally will not try to do wrong, and he will try to convince others to be better, but his inaction speaks louder in my opinion. While yes, he's personally not doing the specific evils, Britannia is committing them, AND in other countries other than just Japan.
So he chooses to let the trolly do it's thing, while trying to or hoping to make it so that their is a 3rd rail path in the future that avoids the killing choice. His idea of change (End) justifies his immediate inaction so that they can fix the issue later (means).
Again, in my opinion, this anime tries to show that inaction in favor of differed action is ineffective, as Lelouch wins, and then convinces Suzaku to break the law and his own morals. Suzaku at the end of the show embodies the "end justifies the means" even if he hates it and may never do it again.
Oh wow, this is definetly the most unique and interesting take I've seen! Really well thought out too. I like what you said about the idea that inaction is also a form of action.
To be fair, consider what did happen because of Lelouch's actions. Most notably his hilarious joke to his sister...
@ProtagonistRayen I'm a bit late to the party, but finally convinced a friend to watch Code Geass and we've been discussing this a lot. Which means I have many thoughts. 😂
The thing is - Suzaku is an active part of the system of oppression and while he may refuse to play his part sometimes (not shooting Lelouch in episode 1, saving civilians, etc) - he is still a soldier/Knight of Britannia, helping to uphold the status quo in many other ways. Therefore, he is part of the people who pushed the trolley down the tracks in the first place. Even if his ultimate goal is to stop the trolley or open up a third track, in the beginning, he's part of the problem. That makes his inaction, i.e. not stopping the trolley he helped push, much more of a moral failing, imo.
@@ProtagonistRayen I was actually thinking that too about the trolly. Because think about it. You're in a situation where there is absolutely 0 good choices here. You can do two things. Do nothing which is definately a concious decision and therefor in of itself an action. And the other is to take an action to lessen the amount of death. Both actions are rotten, and both made with good intentions. But, one has a far worse outcome. The ends still justify the means to both parties. One doesn't pull the lever because to him the 'ends' of not having to make the hard choicem and keeping their morals in tact. The means is through choosing to sit by and watch 5 people die.
Where as the person who pulls the lever is still at the core, doing a very similar thought process. That the ends of saving 5 lives, at the cost of 1 justifies the means, of choosing to kill the 1 person. So makes an action to pull the lever. He likely lives in regret, but knows that in the face of a no-win situation taking decisive action to lessen the suffering, is the only course of action that makes logical or moral sense.
And that used to always bug me about Shizuku is he's self-righteous to the exreme. He doesn't realize that his inaction is still an action. That people are still suffering because he doesn't use the lever to save them at the cost of his own morals. And worse is the system he wants to improve isn't a system an outsider can actually improve. Because it isn't a democracy or a system that gives people a voice. It's a system with a top down powerbase, with an emeperor, dukes, and so forth. All in-trenched for generations. Meaning a newcomer coming in and earning any significant power is not exactly going to be allowed. But all changes are only as long as the current leader is alive. The moment another emperor comes to power they can simply wave their hand and it all goes back. So Shizuku is making a concious decision to support this system, lelouch makes a concious decision to oppose it. Both believe what they're doing is right. But ti's clear one is actually right, objectively speaking. Does it make lelouch a good person? A moral person? No. Because morality is only for those in times of plenty. Those in desperation the only moral choice is to do what you must, and reduce the suffering of other's as much as you can. Even if you have to inflict other suffering in smaller amounts.
The oppression of most of the world by Britannia effects far more people, and was far worse than anything Lelouch did. So getting rid of it, even at the cost of the terrible things he did is objectively the only right and moral choice. And almost anything has to be done for this. And only AFTER it's done, when you're sitting in the aftermath will you have the benefit to be repulsed by the immoral actions required to save far more lives than you harmed.
The trolley does its thing. Not it is thing. Just a quick correction.
If I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all. - Geralt of Rivia
unfortunately that isn't always possible.
Just do evil for evils sake who cares about anything else just live life to the fullest until you die however you die then you get to be above those who care.
A boring, lazy reply.
Useless reply, you are as good as complacent to the greater evil at that point. "Centrism" as an ideology doesn't work because of this. When you are involved in the conflict, and you choose "neither" then you are helping one side regardless.
The smart reply. Concerning oneself with good and evil is a waste of time
Suzaku is the large person and he throws himself off of the bridge
More like lelouch...
The fat man scenario is a bit weird to me, like how do I know for sure that pushing him off will actually strop the trolley? On what grounds am I supposed to assume that? I'd choose to do nothing in that particular scenario because why would I assume that a large man can stop a trolley? Is it just because he's fat? That's just silly to me. Unless the guy is built like concrete, he's not stopping the trolley with his weight alone.
Ah, this one's just a small extention to the first problem. SInce this one feels a bit more personal to most people, they would hesitate to push the guy off which might be different from their first answer. But I totally get your point that these questions are generally in a purely hypothetical senario. Don't actually push people off bridges 😂
just know it will, and answer.
@@ProtagonistRayen From my perspective the rail version of sacrifice either one to save five or sacrifice the five for one person is there at least are 50% chance of you saving either one person at cost of five people or saving five people at cost of one person, my reason for saying 50% chance of saving either side at cost of the other is that the lever could be damaged/locked from letting you pull the lever for a couple of reasons.
As for the bridge version saving the one person on the bridge is for me 100% guaranteed as long you don't push them of the edge which will naturally sacrifice the 5 people below, while there is probably less the 50% chance for the train to be stopped from reaching the other five people at cost of the one fat person on the bridge as sacrifice.
This is at least what I think about this scenario!!
I think that's why it kinda fits because Lelouch doesn't know it will even work at first. He just wants his revenge bad enough against Britannia that he does it.
And if it is somehow a case of stopping the trolley by weight and counterforce like how a brick wall would stop a moving tennis ball then there is also the practical concern of does the pusher have the physical ability to shift the big guy enough to make him fall off of the bridge.
Suzaku is also the kind of person who would pull the lever if he could save more lives. That’s why he fights and even impulsively killed his own father, for which he feels guilty and traumatized. He thought it could stop the war, which it did, as his father called for a ‘do or die’ resistance. This essentially meant fighting to the bitter end rather than surrendering, as it was more honorable. However, against an enemy as strong as Britannia, it would have annihilated Japan. So that did stop the war and saved Japan from total annexation and devastation. That’s how it managed to have such strong resistance movements, factions, and semi-autonomous regions like Kyoto that Zero utilized. But Suzaku continued to fight against them as a Britannian soldier because in his mind resistance was futile and resulted in unnecessary deaths. He believed he could change the system from within and he did make progress with his ways, climbing ranks and giving hope to other Japanese that they could too and also through Euphy’s plan which got ruined due to Lelouch geass which was unfortunate but the story had to move forward to a greater end. Suzaku and Lelouch have more parallels than differences. Major difference is while Lelouch wants to obliterate Britannia, Suzaku hopes he can change it from within. But both want peace and a better world for those they care about. In my opinion, the show doesn’t do enough justice in portraying Suzaku and his motivations and reasoning better. He comes off as stupid just getting in the way of the true hero Zero so people tend to hate him.
I feel like if Suzaku was a protagonist instead of Lelouch, we would have the opposite where Lelouch is hated and Suzaku is loved, or both are loves. Though sadly, Suzaku gets too much hate imo.
@@mattblazefire7999if you think about it, you can easily reverse their role. Anyone of them can be protagonist. Lelouch is classic genius villain with morals or something. While Suzaku is kinda classic protag.
The Britanian empire is an oppressive regime. They took the very name of Japan and replaced it with a number. The emperor was an insane maniac who spewed bs philosophies, licking his boots and expecting you will get a short reprieve from oppression is foolish to say the least.
He allied with a man who was not that different from Lelouch to begin with, he was fool who let his emotions and his infantile sense of justice to rule him!
@@SnowSNS11 well I like Suzaku but I love Lelouch... I am not gay
“Whoever fights the monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. If you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
Lelouch is questioning this belief of Nietzsche. Guilford in this case who disagrees with Lelouch’s stance, is following the stance of Nietzsche who chooses not to become a monster, not to become evil in the face of evil, in the face of the monster.
I believe Lelouch is following the Ubermensch philosophy
@@DonPino596 indeed. In episode 15, CC in the intro is narrating about someone (Lelouch) rising above the abyss of good and evil judgement just as how a ubermensch transcends conventional morality.
Oooooh, I love this quote, this works so well.
@@ProtagonistRayen yeah, you should make more code geass analysis for the future.
Case 1: 1 person or 5 people. Id be caught thinking about consequences and would ultimately not make a decision in time which means doing nothing.
Case 2: I wouldn't push the fat guy.
Actually
The show is clear that Lelouch is right.
Because Suzaku is not an idealist, the guy is so guilt ridden for what he did to his father, that he is basically forcing Japan to atone for his sins.... the biggest part of Suzaku's character arc is realising that he is as bad as Lelouch if not worse. When he starts murdering Black Knights who were on the verge of liberaiting Japan is when the show made clear that Suzaku was in fact the bad guy.... it took him another season realise it himself, but better late than never.
Suzaku would have died if not for Lelouch philosophy as early as episode 3 and it constantly shows that Suzaku IS wrong. He can't change the system, even Euphie's plan was being manipulated by Schneizel.
The show proved that Lelouch was wrong plenty of times. The most notable being the Euphemia incident, she directly proved that you could change from inside the system. You also have to realize is that both Lelouch and Suzaku lost their paths and got many people killed over their egos. When Lelouch thought Nunally was dead, he just lost it and only cared for revenge, and Suzaku when Euphemia died started going down a darker path. Neither were write in the end Lelouch wanted to destroy the Empire and rule it like a chess game with his sister, and Suzaku wanted to die and become a symbol. Though in the end, Leloulch couldn't make his sister happy and was forced to die, and in comparison, Suzaku was forced to live as a Hero, but know one really knowing who he was or that he was alive.
@@mattblazefire7999 Euphemia was delusional.
Her plan would have collapsed. Schenizel only supported it to counter Zero. Once Zero was gone, they would have gotten rid of it.
@facundogonza5740 Not really true, but even then, if we go with your scenario, it still proved Lelouch wrong. He only thought about his method, ignored all other paths, and was planning to destroy Brittania and never accounted for what would happen. That's why in the end. He had to become emperor because he couldn't just destroy Brittania. You also do realize Lelouch was not always good until after C's world really he disregarded life and got innocents killed that were not needed in his revolution, and the only time he cared about the Japanese civilians he killed was when Shirley his friend was hurt because of his actions.
@@mattblazefire7999 There is no other path.
Schneizel only agreed to the administration zone to stop Zero.
If Zero had not started winning, Schenizel would have done nothing.
@facundogonza5740 There are other's paths. Euphemia literally proved there was another path, and if Zero had worked together with Euphemia, it would have succeeded. It's not so black in white that only one way other works, that is why something like Zero Requiem would be gray. It takes Lelouch method of fighting killing to make himself the single enemy, but it takes from Suzakus ideals of changing from the inside where Lelouch has to become king not fully destroying Brittania, and the Zero Requiem as a whole is very idealistic like Suzaku. The Zero Requiem puts a lot of trust in humanity if we are being honest and that it will be more peaceful. If we use a real-world example during WW2, Germany pretty much became the world's enemy, causing peace to be formed between the other countries, but once it was over, another war started. But also, at the same time, what is to say that the rest of the world won't hate Brittania and try to fight them?
While at first it may appear that Lelouche is Utilitarian (ends justify the means) and Suzaku is Kantian (intentions excuse consequences) the truth is that anyone who is not a psychopath doesn't hold these philosophies as absolute.
They might generally guide what you consider right and wrong when dealing with strangers but both Lelouche and Suzaku have deeper motivations which which precede these philosophies and sometimes conflict with them.
Lelouche may be a utilitarian when he can but he would sacrifice any number of people to protect Nunaly, Suzaku may embrace Kantian values when he can but he continues to to serve Britannia because to betray them would contradict the well intentioned murder of his own father.
In real life the motivations people have are a tangled web brought about by their own life experience, in the moment you may be forced to quickly decide between your own personal interest and doing whatever you think is right either immediately or in the long run, occasionally being so conflicted that there is no right answer or you simply make the worst choice in the moment.
In the end once you finally accept your mistakes and form a more coherent world view you may find yourself even more isolated from the thinking of a normal person, like when Lelouche realizes that he has to keep lying to people and being as cold and calculating as possible, or when Suzaku uses the new weapon that kills millions and realizes that he can no longer afford to agonize over the deaths of civilians and that there is no good way to fight a war.
what a smart response!!!how about this?
do you believe every person is equal, that they all deserve happiness but in am equal rate
so we change the thought experience with this thought
these 6 people you love equally you want them to live equally
so are you willing to sacrifice one you love for 5 others who you love aqually?
by this prespictive its moraly just to act this evil act
you doing nothing means you value the ones happiness over another 5 then you don't think lives and happiness are equal no matter the difference
or your scared to take responsibility for the action
by this will suzaku kill euphy for nunly and luluosh sake ? or will he be biece?
life has facts but these facts explode to different meanings that justify and contradic each other basicly different interpretation that satisfy your stand while in onather interpretation satisfy other
that's why we contradict we live in a contradiction that are driven by biece fear of change
basically we are a world made of small pieces each peice represents one life this life is biece to that life and to every piece that fit and support this piece
now the question is how do we connect an amazing diverse world ?
so diverse every connection no matter how similar it is to another is different and unique that's why we don't measure human lives
because in what standard do we measure? by which peice do we utilise to past judgment in all of the picture?
there well be always a contradiction
you can't measure uniqueness by another uniqueness
by this standard every one is equal for not being equal!!
now how do we fit the pieces?
absolutely loved the video! breaking down the ideologies of the 2 characters while comparing it to the trolley problem was very unique. Keep up the good work!
Thanks so much!
I do feel like Trolley Problem has simple resolutions that don't really reflect how humans will react.
In reality most people would probably do nothing, unless pressured by other people.
Be that expectation, threat or persuasion.
Society agress with, and values saving more people. Saving five people is more than one person.
Human Societies are almost universally Hierarchical. Death of a homeless person will not have the same impact, as death of a President of Nation.
On a personal level, a person has always more to gain for saving President over a homeless person.
The only exception is if the person knows them individually and has sympathy towards them.
In an instance where nobody knows each other, active participants will try to avoid having to "make a decision" and would try to save both parties. Whether succeding, even partially, or not.
Society will judge actions of the individual taking action, whether the logic was objectively ethical or not. Society functions by applying people to jobs. If a person does not fit given jobs, the fault falls on the individual.
If events prove that the system or principle does not work, it's easier to frame it in a specific context rather than throw away the entire system.
I think the answer is more or less in what Kyubey explains at the end of the Magia Records anime, about how in the end many plans are clinging to the morals and rules of the time in which they are living. For you to understand better, let's take as an example the struggle of black people, women or homosexuals:
If you look at the past, it was common to try to lower people of a different color because it had been established that they were inferior, the same happens with women, who if they showed that they were smart would be seen as witches or homosexuals as people who It goes against religion, but right there is the problem: Who decided that the rules should be like this? People? So why do people currently see it wrong that you discriminate against someone black, that you sexualize a woman or that you insult a homosexual?
The answer is that in the end, morality changes depending on the rules of the regime or lifestyle that the individual follows, but then why did things change? Well, if you realize it, it's because someone compared the lives of privileged people with others and realized that they were not treated in the same way, therefore this made that person feel uncomfortable and that is what moves people in the end, not good or evil, but how each person feels about it and curiously, that is why people should be instilled with morality, so that they don't become dangerous.
If you consider it, all humans are egoists because we have feelings to reach our equilibrium point and having feelings makes us human, but since things cannot move forward because of that same egoism, there must be something that counteracts it, which is the goodness, wishing someone else to be good without it benefiting us... but since it doesn't benefit us, we look for its to do it, making that goodness convenience and therefore selfishness... and so on. the cycle is repeated over and over again.
The reason why Lelouch "won" is because deep down people expected him to follow this cycle, because they believed that he wanted to be emperor of the whole world, something selfish, when the reality was that Lelouch was selfish , but in the sense that he wanted to carry all the weight alone and impose an opportunity to change their lives on the people he loved and hated, which makes him kind and makes him a walking contradiction for them, in short they lost because they saw everything in such a superficial way, since they were busy looking for their own benefit and trying to blame whoever they were for their mistakes, and then fighting to prove that they were right, something that Susaku sinned a lot throughout on the series, that's why it's when he destroys the tokio settlement he accepts the blame, because he could choose to take the Fleija or not even if this caused his dismissal, in the end he chose himself before.
Suzaku tried to change the system without taking into account that this system has its defense mechanisms in case something like this happens, so even if he became Knight of One, he would still be tied to what the monarch on duty wanted, that's why Susaku and Euphemia loved each other so much, because Euphemia wanted someone who would support her and not make her feel like a freak for her ideals, it should be noted that this does not mean that they did not really love each other, but it means that they got together unconsciously because they shared the same interests, she expected him to be her knight and he expected her to be the empress. For this very fact, he also feels so betrayed by Lelouch, since he expected Lelouch to support him in his plan, instead, he ended up finding out from third parties with bad intentions that his friend was Zero and that he used his love life who is also supposed to be his friend's sister. Susaku felt betrayed not only because he killed Euphemia, but also because he sided with his enemy, even though if we look at it that way, Suzaku betrayed him earlier when he sided with the controlled regime by his friend's abusive father. The boy was constantly making mistakes because he didn't want to accept that the world was grey, because that would give him the perfect excuse to justify what he did to his father and he didn't want that.
"Woman who show there smarts were witches"
What the actual hell.
Were did you learn history the Disney channel.
I don't even know how to react to this.
The fact that you wrote this seriously is proof that are education system has failed 😢😢😢
It did change. I didn't hesitate to pull the lever, but I didn't push the large man. I think it's bc:
1. I don't believe a fat man could actually stop a train.
2. If it could, it could injure people on the train due to sudden stop.
3. The five people could die anyway due to miscalculation.
4. The fat man could resist and pull me down with him.
5. Perhaps most importantly, pushing feels more intimate and deliberate. Like I'm intentionally killing a man as opposed to simply lowering an abstract number.
#5 you’re still killing a human being deliberately either way only difference is you’d be literally covered in blood from the fat person, but you’d still be metaphorically covered in blood by pushing the lever on the tract instead of breaking the lever completely and breaking the bridge to save all lives in both scenarios hence yet another reason on why One Piece is the greatest Shonen/Shonen Jump series of all time.
in perfect scenario what will be ur ans
@@it1970 , my answer would be to not go anywhere near the train tracks because if I’m near the train tracks then I’m still killing one or five people at a time, and I’m deliberately killing a person or a small group of people hence why it’s best not to be anywhere near the train tracks at all.
Maaaan your videos are insane, you deserve way more recognition
I appreciate that!
I feel like trolley problem is really about if a person willing to put a value of people's life that can be measured with quantity.
There are so many variables to consider that it's impossible to give a universal solution.
Say you pick to sacrifice 1 person and save the other 5. But the 1 person is a child, and the 5 are his/her grandparents. Would you think it's fair? Would you think these 5 people would be thankful or they would rather sacrifice themselves so their grandchild lives instead?
In the eind if you pull the lever, decide to not pull it or not participate - you are not the one who tied the people to the tracks and shouldn't be blamed for the outcome.
Heavy is the head that bears the crown. Lelouch makes the hard choices and assumes the consequences. He does not expect people to excuse his actions because the ends justify the means.
The whole trolley problem I see as more of "do I take responsibility?". But Suzaku does not just let the cart kill the five people. He insists that everyone can be saved, but he is wrong. Every single one of his actions are a waste of his time, commitment and emotional investments. All while benefiting his oppressors.
Lelouch could have been wrong too, but he did what garnered results. He learnt and went into it with his eyes open, while his friend stubbornly kept following his ways. That's why he eventually submitted, because he had no foresight and couldn't plan ahead to make things better.
Most of us though simply won't do anything because why risk it all. We're not guilty if we let things happen. We're not even certain about how things will pan out. You can change your country so you can live a good life or you can just live a good life now. One path leads to a lot of effort with nothing to show for it, the other is way more likely to be achieved with success. I grew out of thinking that I can affect anything greater than my own life.
Effectiveness is the point of it all at the end of the day.
Lelouch was an effective king while Suzaku was a failed hero.
One knew what had to be done realisticaly while the other choose to live in his fantasy world where everything is just. If Suzaku had any sense he would have figured out the only way to change the system effectively is to take control not to just apatheticaly join it, since he was not royalty his achievements meant nothing.
love the video man keep up the great content
Personally, I am a pull the lever person as I tend to be more practical and have an "ends justifies the means" approach. However, one major differentiation for those who did not pull the lever in this scenario is the fact that you are taking action to create an evil that did not exist before. If you do nothing and 5 people die, then it is circumstance. If you pull the lever and one person dies, it is murder. You are also choosing to be passive or be a murderer. Pulling the lever, in reality, would be a lot harder than talking about pulling the lever.
I subscribed, I really like your breakdown and analysis of the same things that plague my mind
I see both sides of the argument and I mainly agree with Lelouch. Also in the beginning and until Lelouch geassed Suzaku to live, Suzaku wasn't even trying to make any drastic positive changing, he was just trying to put himself in a situation where he dies "Heroically" even when he was with Euphie. If he was honest about the fact he was suicidal he really should have either gotten help or at least talk to someone he cares for like Euphie or Lelouch. If he had done that I could sympathize with him a lot more but as he is I can barely stand him.
I love Lelouch but 2 things about him frusterated the shit out of me. For one he prioritizes Nunally way too much until towards the end also he lies way way way too much to everyone but C.C. If he explained to Suzaku that his geass suddenly went off by accident and explained the situation Suzaku wouldn't have been near as pissed. He still probably wouldn't join him but he wouldn't have wanted to kill him. Same with how he could have told Suzaku that Rolo killed Shirley. As well explain to Kallen that all he geassed her to do was have her tell him whether or not she was the pink glasco pilot in shinjuku. Etc...
I think if Lelouch geassed all the royalty and nobles of Britannia at the end to free the countries and go back to Britannia for good the him sacrificing himself wouldn't have been necessary.
I am a simple person who puts the interest of my heart above others. Say I push that fat man, then i become a murderer, and possibly get jailed. I'll calculate if I can do something to help if I can, but if I cannot, I'll just let fate to happen. I will feel bad but not too bad if i don't know them.
Say, those five people are the most important people to me, then I'll push the fat man to give them a chance of survival.
Ultimately, we're selfish creatures, even if our selfishness is because of someone we love, and helping create a safer world for them...or it's for yourself and you feel good helping others and yet you lack love and worry for your own self and safety.
Our motivation to do anything at all is our feelings, we will only fight evil if they threatened our happiness and/or safety in some way or another. There's no good or evil, only us and those who threatened our... happiness? Something like that😅
the train thing. clearly kill as many as i can. second one is easy i let the rain roll and then poush the fat man to kill him afterwards.
Have you been watching The Good Place? I ask because one of their characters, when faced with the trolley problem, misunderstood what the problem was and thought the aim was to kill everyone.
czcams.com/video/vfIdNV22LQM/video.html
@@michaelrobinson2687 nah im not into hollywood.
Damn it makes my eyes water seeing Leouch death again but remembering the latest movie a smile resurfaced at my face
3:16 This is the one thing you got wrong. Suzaku wouldn't do nothing, he'd sacrifice himself.
As someone who loves code Geass this video was great and made me subscribe loved it thanks !
I dunno if this is a good analogy. I think a better description of Suzaku would that he runs down himself to hand free as many people as he can and likely dies himself in the process.
"When you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back"
-Friedrich Nietzche
great content !
I like the YT short where the guy turns the train track into a ramp, which sends the trolley flying into a children's hospital! Complete with Free Bird!
Trolley problem is often disregarded considering its impractical application. Not to mention if if i am being critical towards the situation, both changing track nor pushing the fat man will help. As the trolley will flipped from turning without slowing down potentially killing everyone inside + the laying mens depend on trajectory. While in other case both fat man is enough to stop a trolley.
So what will i do? I will look for 3rd option considering option 1 and 2 are awful.
If you can't defeat enemy
Be the enemy
I think I would likely pull the lever but more on impulse then rationality given how fast train car would be moving
On the first case of the trolley problem, there is a third option. Jam the lever mid way and derail the trolley. In the second case collaspe the bridge. In both cases you save everyone.
jamming the lever midway? you have never heard of multi-track drifting, have you? 👀
@@sapo-san8054 It would cause the trolley to become derailed entire actually. Since the wheel of the trolley would hit the track now stuck in the middle of switching.
As for switching tracks or pushing the fat person onto the tracks, the answer should be obvious. You can choose to do nothing, but in doing so you have chosen not to intervene and thus causing the deaths of four innocent people - provided that they're inherently innocent.
Fat people are generally not happy, otherwise they'd be thin. Many are guilt eating, not exercising enough, generally feel bad about themselves and their figure and thus experience less happiness in the process of living than thin people.
I would absolutely sacrifice the fat person for four thin, healthy people, even if I were that fat person.
If we spun the question around another way; what if the fat person was a family member or a loved one?
Now that would make things more interesting, since most people would be out for themselves or their families and not for a stranger.
great video bro
Thanks! I'll try not to dissapoint moving forward
You definetly deserve a sub.
Thanks! I'll keep it up to not dissapoint!
My morality compass is so shit that i would just ignore the trolley lever completely
LOL I get that. I think one of the most annoying but true responses I've ever got to "Ima just not do anything" is: "not choosing is still a choice"
I loved this video sooo much it embodies a world that is realistic.
People's answers to the two questions you posed on the trolley problem don't change because it is moral or more logical to change it, but because people don't want to view themselves as the bad guy. So they'll do whatever makes them look least bad.
Great video ngl 👏
Thank you!!
As a Christian, I would struggle to pull the lever or push the fat man over, but I understand what Lelouch was asking and somewhat would choose the sacrifice of one life over five. Because more lives are saved. l think Lelouch decision to follow that path is the most likely best option in the story and situation of the world. Because in the end, Suzaku kills him to destroy the greater evil and unite all the people against him. To where they joined together as allies in the end.
I found gold in a small channel. I will be rooting you on for your success!
Also, id sacrifice the one person to save the five.
Thank you so much! I don't know how you ended up here but enjoy your stay!
@@ProtagonistRayen you ended up in my recommendations lol
I just finished watching the anime and it unbelievably good.
I dont think the trolley problem is analogous to their beliefs.
Lelouch is not willing to sacrifice the minority of the civilians for its majority. In fact he is willing to sacrifice the lives of soldiers/warriors for the greater end that of peace. Just as he said, "The only ones who should kill are those who are prepared to be killed". Soldiers/warriors as their occupation dictates are willing to lose their lives for their faction and ideology. The problem is that of reality, in real battle it is unavoidable to prevent these undesired civilian casualties. But if they stop just because of that, then the lives lost will be in vain, and change/outcome will not be met. He is not willing to sacrifice, but tries to minimize the casualties for as low as possible while making the as much progress in meeting the end.
On the other hand, Suzaku is not sacrificing a majority for his goals. Its actualy the opposite. He believes that the path of integrity as he rises in Britannian ranks will provide a long term benefit for the Japanese. This will also convince the Japanese to not rebel and save countless casualty from rebellion and terrorism. Sadly for this path, it takes a long time to achieve. Also he cant persuade the Japanese to sacrifice their valuable life/time for the end which they may not be alive anymore to benefit from it.
Both ideals have faults. But both are also the same in a way that both tries to achieve good outcome with least casualties. Such that Lelouch's saves time but would suffer repercussions of the actions. While Suzaku sacrifices time for a long term benefit. And the ending ultimately marries both ideals.
I chose to change the second one for both
I would do nothing and let the 5 people die, especially on the second question.
If I push the fat man down and it stops the trolley, there is the chance of the trolley crashing and killing lots of people inside of it. I would rather do nothing and save the lives of the people in the trolley.
you just gave me infinite more shower thoughts
I'm glad I could make your shower a more thoughtful expirence!
Or you could derail the Trolley and pray for the people in the trolley.
My logical brain whould pull the level and push the man but my hearth say no and my brain put in that i dont whant to be a murder in the eye of the law
My answer to your ethics question is to walk away from the lever. If the were dumb enough to have thar done to them 0/6 are worth saving.
I love the video
Thank you!
Pull the lever so that the first half of the trolley goes one way then hit the lever again so that the other half of the trolley goes the other way and watch it destroy all 4 people is what I would do. As for the second scenario I would push the guy on top of the cart and watch as the cart imploded on to itself while destroying the people on the tracks, everyone is gone.
This is also the xmen’s dilemma (from marvel comics). They always go back to charles philosophy (suzaku) and currently they just got massacred again (they got massacred last year too). Sasuke was going to follow lelouch’s path as well
The end isn't really Suzaku following Lelouch's path south ss both of them seeing the flaws of their paths and combining to form a new one using aspects of both after witnessing the will of humanity in C's World
Suzuaku isn't a perfect counter to Lelouch in this sense. He serves an empire which discriminates against people in its military because he hopes to eventually change the system.
I think like this because of Lelouch and code geass
I’d sacrifice the 1
Both are right but lelouch is the main protagonist so it’s going his way
Great video first off.
But to the contents itself, the issue with moral dilemmas like the Evil Paradox is they ignore context because context muddies the core issue. But it's that exact muddying that matters. Because talking about 'evil' and 'justice' sounds nice but they don't address the 'systems' in place. Lets say Lelouch makes the UFN as this second evil, he can also leave it open to change later, something the current, Britannia, evil does not have. There is no way to reform Britannia without bloodshed, it's make up of a leader, it's seconds being soldiers, and than third nobles that profit off being superior means there will be conflict if you try to make it better, the system would not allow someone like Euphemia to just make them 'less evil'.
Oooo, I love your take on this. I totally agree, these moral dilemmas often exist in a vaccum with no other context so it's great to see you elaborate on the circumstances and how that influences this issue.
The limitations of not having perfect knowledge,
the only reason that there is {the}-God..
You mention that Lelouch is prepared to commit a greater evil to rid the world of the lesser, do you not?
Is the other, more prolonged, "lesser" evil (Britannia) really that much lesser than the greater one committed by Lelouch throughout the show?
I think, that a quick and painless death to a regime is less evil than a slow and torturous one for an entire, near disarmed people. Well... Multiple people to be exact. Japan weren't the only affected country after all.
ill push him
Lelouch is just a utilitarian, and suzaku is a deontologist that’s the whole thing it’s the entire plot
As a utilitarian i obviously think suzaku is a dumbass
You want to be the really bad part in a good cause that makes everyone question if that cause is good in anyway or its just an exuse for more evil or be the marginally better part of a bad cause while not really making much things better but you arent truly making things worse than they could be because theese things would happen with or without you.
This is some pretty insane quality for a channel with 36 subs. I'd definitely like to see more. Try to talk more smoothly. Maybe use clips instead of your face so you can look at the script instead of the camera, or practice more or smth idk. Anyway good stuff.
Thanks for your support! This means a lot and I’ve been working in speaking more fluidly since I listened back to the video now and thought I spoke so chooply, if that’s even a word 😂
Do I know any of the people on the tracks? This made me think about how did they know their actions would work out? How would they know? Lelouch's plans have great effect on the outer world but his own inner world is destroyed entirely. Even in the end after his death, the world is nominally better without Britannian Monarchy but Nunnally likely will be traumatized deeply for the rest of her life. Same with Suzaku, he cannot live a morally righteous life he has to be an outlaw forever. Not only that but things could (and did) go off the rails at any time. I always remember Lelouch scolding Charles about abandoning them but who stands by Nunally now? They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. In the end Lelouch ran that train over his sister to save the world
Right, and the thing with this is that I think your answer would totally change if you knew people on the tracks. And oooo, I love the way you thought at the end!
pull the lever and push the guy
haven't finished the video but yea
Suzaku is a war criminal, traitor of his own nation and I don’t know why people barely talk about it :D
lets all be honest with ourselves tho, we'd all destroy the world for Nunnally :)
I found this anime because moist critical said it was his favorite... but this dilemma is easy. Evil is an illusion. The way I learned this was dependent on observation and Yuval Harari. The observation was seals and sharks. Yuval Harari brought it to my attention that belief in fictional stories separates us from animals so it's our imagination that makes us different . Therefore evil is an illusion in same way darkness, the absence of light, is an illusion... electromagnetic light is all there is with no beginning or end ⭕ 🌊
I personaly would not interfere with the fate of others.
I have not the right to sacrifice 1 person for 5. The one that is "meant" to surive, shall survive.
Suzaku at the age of 10 decided right imma kill my pops for peace lmao.
😂
About your question with the trawli, I will choose to sacrifice one person to save the other five! About your second question, I will push the fat person to save the other five again!
Gonna have to push through the sub in order to watch the video... hopefully it's worth it?
Yes, it's a lifechanging show! Come back after you watched it!
i choose option 3! I blast the train into the stratossphere cause my name is actually saitama and i became too strong....
world is grey, you can do suzaku or lelouch path and reach the same goal the issue was that suzaku lost his path while trying to do good, because here is the trick, sacrifices for the greater good can be worse then suzaku ideals because the trap of the greater good is that you never reach the greater good you want to, instead you move the goal form one place to another or worse you become the greater evil by trying to destroy the evil
Code Geass showcases the not failure but how it wins with the Path of pracmatic greater good, but that is not reality, while lelouch did win in the end he could have become a far greater evil then the evil he wanted to defeat
suzaku ideal of not commiting evil is also legit and could have easily won the fight but the reality is that suzaku was not a leader so there was no chance for victory there and worse he fail and got corrupted and only thx to lelouch the greater god was archive while in reality it is far more stable and less destructive and effective to do the Suzaku path then doing the lelouch one because in reality even if you try to do good and are doing good it is far to easy to mark you as evil if you are going against the current ruling power
And then they made a movie and ressurected him. And all the philosophy went to -BLEEP-
Haha, I totally get it, the new movie was supposed to be hype, and it was for a bit but then at the end of the day, they just couldn't surpass the original
I mean Suzaku’s plan was working until the princess Euphemia incident .
Because the Black Knights were causing issues, if Lelouch hadn't become Zero, Suzaku would have been executed wrongfully for the death of Clovis and if Clovis never died Suzaku would have never been in any position to advance his career
oh yeah for sure, until Lelouch did a lil oops 😂
Utilitarianism is ultimately wrong. Simply because it ignores the other aspects of morality that don't have to do with harm And pleasure,
That is to say loyalty, Justice, Authority, Is liberty.
It only makes sense in our society because how hedonistic ( Philosophical hedonism not necessarily moral hedonism) we have become.
That is why I ultimately rejected it.
To sound smart, you could say Lelouch practices Utilitarianism,
And Suzuki practices deontology
Shoulda used the eng dub ong
Overall, Lelouch's opinion is the right one imo
You'd have to use a greater evil and become it in order to destroy the smaller and lesser evil if good-actions cannot destroy it, you'd need to overshadow it and destroy it, and then destroy your own evil in the process
Very interesting! Also I just originally watched the show in JP so I'm just used to it haha.
Or maybe you have to reflect and expand your thoughts if you REALLY didn't miss an option. An important aspect missed in this discussion.
Lelouch himself was faced with that during the Euphy situation.
@@ProtagonistRayenusing English sub version is perfectly fine. Please just ignore those insisting you to use the English dub version. They're just weirdly obsessive of the dub version for some reason. Just use whatever you feel like it
When I saw Nunnally in the last few seconds of the video, I damn near choked up thinking about her wails at the end of the Requiem.
As for the Trolley conundrum, all of my choices hinge on whether or not I am connected to one track or the other. For instance, if I was given the choice to pull the lever and save five strangers at the cost of a friend's life, I'm all but certain i couldn't do it. If I don't have any bond with either side, though, saving five would be more appropriate than saving one. It's the same with the second scenario, as I would only push the man if I was both certain that it would save the five and if one or more of the five was someone I cared for.
At the end of the day, I'm an inherently selfish person when it comes to the people I love, and will repeatedly choose them over the world at large, including myself.
Scenario 1:
I'd have to choose switching the tracks so the rails with the one person tied to it is endangered. There's a slim chance you can then get to the single person and untie them/cut them loose in time before the railcar arrives, rather than dealing with a group of people. Also, presumably, this isn't some bizarre, Randall's "what would you do for a flying car scenario" a world where yourself and the endangered people aren't the *only* people in the world, so there are other people nearby who's also available to help this one person, which again is a far less daunting task that may be less intimidating for people to act upon. And even if that's not possible, if nothing else the tragedy is a smaller than it could have been, sort of like when emergency responders have to cut a person's limb off in order to get them out of a collapsed building. And that's the thing, this whole scenario isn't really about choosing the lesser evil; it's about minimizing the amount of damage and loss of life.
Scenario 2:
There's no good way out of this... mostly because a guy would have to be "using an AT-ST Walker as a wheelchair"-sized in order to be fat enough to stop a moving railcar. Otherwise, you've just increased the number of casualties slightly (and made the scene of the accident grosser). 🤢
Man this theoretical tought experiment isn't realistic kinda missed the point there my guy.
I love how real this is, these philisophical expirements do tend to be on too much of the "what if" side of things 😂
It's fine, let em cook 😂
There’s always a third option.
Yank lever out, use it to derail trolley. Both times.
ur a suzaku fanboy
I'm a fan of both!
@@ProtagonistRayen they're both sunk cost fallacy, but you're bias so you only say lelouch
multi-track drifting that trolly 👍
LOL Multitrack drifting
Keep the quality content coming and you’ll blow up
Thanks! It's these comments that keep me going!