Paradis: "We can't/won't Rumble." Marley: "Excellent! Now DIE and give us all your land and resources!" Paradis: "Okay, then we will/can do the Rumble" Marley: (forms Global Alliance) "OH SHIT!! Die and give us all your land and resources!" Paradis: Well...shit. RUMBLE!
As Kenny Ackerman said , we all need to be drunk on something. Eren was drunk on the idea of freedom, Armin on exploring the outside world, Mikasa on love (both romantic and familial love)
The great thing about Eren as a protagonist is that his motivations are so muddled, inconsistent, and all over the place that any argument on the subject is equally valid because they are all equally contradicted by the source material (which definitely isn't bad writing). Was his objective total freedom, to protect Paradis, to give his friends long happy lives, or to recreate the empty world in Armin's book? Your guess is as good as mine.
I believe Eren was justified but I can’t say if he was right. He was put in a position where the only way to protect his people and way of life was to rid them of all opposition and the ending of the Anime and Manga proved that point to a T. Think about how Thanos came to realization in Endgame that those who remember what once was will always come back to fight the one who changed the status quo and he was proven correct in how the avengers put the time heist in place to avenge half the universe. The same thing happens in the post anime scenes when it shows the future war decimating paradise because the 20 percent of humanity left behind would still carry the scars of the 80 percent who were killed. Had he eliminated them all no one outside of his people would be left. So there is no opposition towards your own. Atleast as far as the Eldia Vs Marley conflict. Now future conflicts aren’t on his hands but the people that come after him who differ over whatever it is that they differ on which is another conversation entirely that has nothing to do with what Eren put in place.
There's a difference between "Eren doesn't have free will, and has no moral responsiblity for his actions, and his actions were not wrong" and "Eren doesn't have free will, and has no moral responsiblity for his actions, but his actions were wrong." You can also just adopt compatibilism about free will. But even if you don't, if free will doesn't exist then this doesn't straightforwardly mean that moral responsibility (or more precisely blameworthiness) must be discarded, and even if we show that moral responsibility (or more precisely blameworthiness) must be discarded then that doesn't yet show that other moral concepts must be discarded.
yeah this is a really intellectually lazy and just generally misinformed video when it comes to both philosophy and the throughline of the story itself. I feel bad commenting on it and boosting it in the algorithm, but it has to be said.
The manga and anime constantly reiterate over and over again that human conflict will never end. Even if Eren achieved the full-rumbling who is to say Eldia won't find another reason to become divided and fight amongst each other? I feel like a lot of Rumbling-supporters missed the point of this message. As stated in the "Publicly Available Information" from episode 86: When Titans were the greatest threat, Titans were the enemy. When countries were the greatest threat, countries were the enemy. For as long as people hold firm to different beliefs, there will always be an enemy
the past and future existed at the same time so he had no choice but to carry out his actions. As for how he handled it, not great. I kinda wish the story focused on how he tries to avoid it but is unable to
@@skepticalzostrianos9875Fr, I feel like it would’ve been way better for the story. Like everytime he lashes out against his friends you get to see him hate himself for it
@@slackstarfish8133 Yess, like Re;Zero or Steins;Gate. I remember at one point he even said that he had tried to prevent Sacha's death, but he couldn't succeeded, because his death was destined to happen. Showing Eren's moments of despair when he realizes that he will never be able to save all of his friends would have been a better way to rehabilitate him instead of having him say "I'm just an idiot" or "I'm a slave to freedom" without any context.
@@skepticalzostrianos9875 The context is there, he is weak when it comes to controlling his emotions, the argument here isn't he cannot control the future or the past or even change it. It's the fact he is so stubborn in his way, he will always let his emotions and violence consume him because of freedom. He admits in the end he didn't do it for his friends. He did it for himself. I don't understand how you say there is no context
Absolutely not. He pressured Grisha and when he did he had a clear choice to do so. He had free will the entire time and admits it at the end. He wanted the rumbling and enjoyed it
I thought a long time if the ending of aot is good or bad, but the fact alone its so controversial, you can talk so much about it, so many different analyses, so many different opinions, its definitely not an ending where you think "that was nice" and you are just done with it. Its an ending you can think so much about and there are still to many people who dont understand it right. One of the most interestings endings i have seen in media
He had free will. The only choice that mattered in the future visions is him starting the rumbling; but, its also understandable. Lets face the dude was just not there mentally anymore; the deaths, the visioons, the pressure. He was just the wrong person to have power with a valid reason to why he would go crazy and decide the way he rid. Im mot saying hes wrong but i aint mad at him or the endung of aot.
Is Eren right, is Eren wrong? Yes and no, just like every other character. This show's story is very very complex, thought provoking, amazing and I honestly don't blame anyone, everyone from Armin to Eren is a villain as well as good, and everyone is justified in their actions from Sasha, Gabi, Eren, Floch, or any other (insert name) character. This is what makes AoT amazing show to me. What disgusted me is how people quickly threw Eren under the bus after all they've went through with him for first 3 seasons, AoT is one of goat shows to me, but I dislike it's fanbase it's clear show is too intelligent for brainless fanbase that watches it.
I feel like eren was just the wrong person to have power which reiner realized before everyone he had the opportunity to give his friends freedom and took it he says it was no other way but I truly don’t even think he would’ve cared if it was that’s just the type of person he is when he was in Marley stomping on newborns it showed his perspective and he called that freedom multiple times when he was fighting in titan form in season 1 he would say some crazy shit and I feel like everyone ignored that but me for some reason and also I don’t even feel like he was wrong people keep talking about he just continued the cycle but he was going to kill everyone his plan wasn’t just for 80% but he allowed his friends to make their own decision and stop him because he wants them to be free
Reiner was talking about Eren determination to fight back and his strong backbone. Eren wasn't going down without a fight. That's why he said Eren was the "worst person hold that power." If Armin had that power, everyone on paradis would've been screwed because Armin is a diplomatic person. He would've tried to talk, and of course, that doesn't work. Plus, Reiner was Eren's antagonist. Of course, he would say that. The ppl who were Eren's side wouldn't have said that.
Honestly i get the idea that Eren wasnt truly free until the "i tested it" part, what the heck does that mean? like legit is that something he can do? he can make simulations of how to use the Rumbling and how different outcomes would come out? cause honestly if i see any character in media not acepting he has a predetermined patyh to follow it was Eren, the guy is a contrarian by the nature of how much he wanted to be free, i understand the irony but i still feel conflicted about it either way really good video!
No he’s referring to the fact that multiple times he attempted to prevent the future (starting the rumbling) by trying to prevent certain memories he saw through kissing Historia’s hand. One point was when he saved Ramzi from the dock workers, he knew he saved him from his future memories however he attempted to just walk away, but Eren’s nature as a person prevented him from ignoring the kid getting attacked and he defended him. Eren then says when he saved him “I guess the future cannot change”
@@facilde1 that’s the point, Eren isn’t a saint that is doing the rumbling for a noble cause. He wanted to do it because he was disappointed that the outside world was already inhabited. Eren would’ve likely wanted to do the rumbling whether the outside world hated Eldians or not.
@@LouDog-bk2sli think he was disappointed of how the world outside the walls saw eldians, not that it was inhabited, it was more of a kill or be killed situation, due to marley already seeing eldians as demons, and them attacking first in the first place
@@vicevilla9949 it’s definitely up to interpretation. But I think it’s more to do with the fact that Eren was disappointed with the world being populated and not his to explore. Armin mentions this in their final conversation when he also shares the blame with Eren’s decision to use the rumbling to kill most of humanity
Eren and the Warriors are equally right and wrong. They're wrong to genocide, but they're right to do what they believe is the only thing that can save their people
Understand me, I'm all on Armin's side, but what I dislike about Eren's haters is that they make him seem like a crazy psycho for doing the Rumbling. It's not as simple as that. Don't forget that if he doesn't, the world sends a coalition to destroy his friends and his homeland. It's the tramway problem. Take our real life. This was the choice Truman had to make when he bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He chose to end the war as quick as possible to save more US soldiers. Truman is way worse than Eren, even if Truman killed less people. He is worse because there was no certainty that the world would fall under the Japanese. In Eren's case, if there is no Rumbling, it's definitely the end for Paradis. That's the whole point of the dilemma. My take is still that you should be pacifist and try to avoid war even when such a scenario will unfold. But I dislike people pretending Eren had another way. No. There were two ways. The Rumbling (team Eren) OR being ready to accept death (team Armin). Again, I'm team Armin, but like Armin does in the end, I'll still defend Eren.
Armin (or the rest off the alliance) didn't come up with to save Paradis. Instead he was jacking off to Annie's crystal. The 50-year plan/Euthanization plan weren't even the scouts plan, it was Zeke and the anti-marleyans plan.
After the finale I HAD to go back and rewatch the anime from beginning to end. Took about a solid week. After rewatching, I have no doubt in my mind at all that Eren was in the right. Fuck Marley, Fuck the world. My ONLY gripe was that he didn’t finish the job! Stay humble or get rumbled!
No, you're simply wrong. Marley had it coming. They butchered the people of Paradis simply because of what their ancestors did. Marley did unimaginably evil things to Paradis, and then all of a sudden Paradis is the bad guy for doing it back?
"What if the choices you made didn't matter" You are getting things very wrong... The choices you made matter ofc, not shit, cause and effect. The real question is, were you free to make the choices you made? or was it determined from the beginning. how do you know that you could've made a different choice in the first place? wasn't your choice dermined already by your genes and environment? Isn't what you are thing right now just a product of what already happened and the laws of the universe? I mean you kinda explain this well but then you say things like "It didn't matter what choices are made" the thing is that under determinism you didn't really make a choice. It is not a choice if you only have 1 choice.
Interesting cause after watching this show that was my question what does it really mean to be a slave to freedom and wouldn’t you want to be ? lol in a sense right? I understand how the world push Eren to do the rumbling but I wish they would’ve went a lil bit deeper on how he couldn’t stop it….how on earth can’t you prevent a genocide 😭
can you stop saying none of his choices matter. if you believe that aot is deterministic then you can either say eren had no choices as he had no free will, or that his choices were predetermined and they did matter because they would lead to 80% of the world dieing. For example you said eren would do the rumbling no matter what he did. This is factually incorrect as if he didn't do the rumbling then the rumbling would not happen. The point of determinism is that your choices are determined, however if you somehow did make a different choice a different situation would occur. The point of determinism is that it is impossible to make a different choice and theirfore impossible to change the future. anyway I enjoyed your discussion on erens desire for freedom. as schopenhauer said man can do what he wants but he can not want what he wants. If you disagree with any of my points let me know as this is a very interesting topic.
Yea I agree with you in real life it doesn’t matter about determinism because we can’t see the future so we at least have the illusion of choice while eren can’t change the future because the memories he gets already accounts for him trying to change the future thus leading to no change sorry if this makes no sense topics like these should not be discussed over text lol
80% was too low, he was supposed to do 100% and give armin the world they always dreamt of
Including paradis
Based and rumblepilled.
EXACTLY!
@@daniel8181based chad genocide defender
That "we are defending mass genocide!... Wait what?" earned a strong like.
Paradis: "We can't/won't Rumble."
Marley: "Excellent! Now DIE and give us all your land and resources!"
Paradis: "Okay, then we will/can do the Rumble"
Marley: (forms Global Alliance) "OH SHIT!! Die and give us all your land and resources!"
Paradis: Well...shit. RUMBLE!
As Kenny Ackerman said , we all need to be drunk on something. Eren was drunk on the idea of freedom, Armin on exploring the outside world, Mikasa on love (both romantic and familial love)
"Man is born free but in chains everywhere"
- Jacques Rousseau
Imagine if Eren never made friends
Good thought mf
Then he wouldn’t have to worry about anyone betraying him.
Erens “ friends” were traitors
The great thing about Eren as a protagonist is that his motivations are so muddled, inconsistent, and all over the place that any argument on the subject is equally valid because they are all equally contradicted by the source material (which definitely isn't bad writing). Was his objective total freedom, to protect Paradis, to give his friends long happy lives, or to recreate the empty world in Armin's book? Your guess is as good as mine.
Had nothing do with Armins book
He does make every choice because he wanted it to happen which makes him ''free'' but this also means he is not free since ...aaah this is a mindfuck
I believe Eren was justified but I can’t say if he was right. He was put in a position where the only way to protect his people and way of life was to rid them of all opposition and the ending of the Anime and Manga proved that point to a T. Think about how Thanos came to realization in Endgame that those who remember what once was will always come back to fight the one who changed the status quo and he was proven correct in how the avengers put the time heist in place to avenge half the universe. The same thing happens in the post anime scenes when it shows the future war decimating paradise because the 20 percent of humanity left behind would still carry the scars of the 80 percent who were killed. Had he eliminated them all no one outside of his people would be left. So there is no opposition towards your own. Atleast as far as the Eldia Vs Marley conflict. Now future conflicts aren’t on his hands but the people that come after him who differ over whatever it is that they differ on which is another conversation entirely that has nothing to do with what Eren put in place.
There's a difference between "Eren doesn't have free will, and has no moral responsiblity for his actions, and his actions were not wrong" and "Eren doesn't have free will, and has no moral responsiblity for his actions, but his actions were wrong."
You can also just adopt compatibilism about free will. But even if you don't, if free will doesn't exist then this doesn't straightforwardly mean that moral responsibility (or more precisely blameworthiness) must be discarded, and even if we show that moral responsibility (or more precisely blameworthiness) must be discarded then that doesn't yet show that other moral concepts must be discarded.
yeah this is a really intellectually lazy and just generally misinformed video when it comes to both philosophy and the throughline of the story itself. I feel bad commenting on it and boosting it in the algorithm, but it has to be said.
@@r_bearit’s literally not that serious of a video, he’s literally just playing around with the concept.
The manga and anime constantly reiterate over and over again that human conflict will never end. Even if Eren achieved the full-rumbling who is to say Eldia won't find another reason to become divided and fight amongst each other? I feel like a lot of Rumbling-supporters missed the point of this message.
As stated in the "Publicly Available Information" from episode 86:
When Titans were the greatest threat, Titans were the enemy. When countries were the greatest threat, countries were the enemy. For as long as people hold firm to different beliefs, there will always be an enemy
Eren didn't care about civil war. His goal wasn't to end all human conflict. It was free Eldians from oppression that's it.
the past and future existed at the same time so he had no choice but to carry out his actions. As for how he handled it, not great. I kinda wish the story focused on how he tries to avoid it but is unable to
Yeah I agree, it would have been cool to see him fight his fate before submitting to it.
@@skepticalzostrianos9875Fr, I feel like it would’ve been way better for the story. Like everytime he lashes out against his friends you get to see him hate himself for it
@@slackstarfish8133 Yess, like Re;Zero or Steins;Gate. I remember at one point he even said that he had tried to prevent Sacha's death, but he couldn't succeeded, because his death was destined to happen. Showing Eren's moments of despair when he realizes that he will never be able to save all of his friends would have been a better way to rehabilitate him instead of having him say "I'm just an idiot" or "I'm a slave to freedom" without any context.
@@skepticalzostrianos9875 The context is there, he is weak when it comes to controlling his emotions, the argument here isn't he cannot control the future or the past or even change it. It's the fact he is so stubborn in his way, he will always let his emotions and violence consume him because of freedom. He admits in the end he didn't do it for his friends. He did it for himself. I don't understand how you say there is no context
Absolutely not. He pressured Grisha and when he did he had a clear choice to do so. He had free will the entire time and admits it at the end. He wanted the rumbling and enjoyed it
I thought a long time if the ending of aot is good or bad, but the fact alone its so controversial, you can talk so much about it, so many different analyses, so many different opinions, its definitely not an ending where you think "that was nice" and you are just done with it. Its an ending you can think so much about and there are still to many people who dont understand it right.
One of the most interestings endings i have seen in media
3:05 i love having already thought a lot about this topic because as soon as i hear these questions i instantly say Yes.
He had free will. The only choice that mattered in the future visions is him starting the rumbling; but, its also understandable. Lets face the dude was just not there mentally anymore; the deaths, the visioons, the pressure. He was just the wrong person to have power with a valid reason to why he would go crazy and decide the way he rid. Im mot saying hes wrong but i aint mad at him or the endung of aot.
Brother did not call a chapter 'Aaron's choice' his name looks so goofy when spelled like that, Aaron could never genocide 😢
Eren was right.
Eren did nothing wrong and eren didnt love mikasa it was forced
Thank you!!!!
Is Eren right, is Eren wrong? Yes and no, just like every other character. This show's story is very very complex, thought provoking, amazing and I honestly don't blame anyone, everyone from Armin to Eren is a villain as well as good, and everyone is justified in their actions from Sasha, Gabi, Eren, Floch, or any other (insert name) character. This is what makes AoT amazing show to me. What disgusted me is how people quickly threw Eren under the bus after all they've went through with him for first 3 seasons, AoT is one of goat shows to me, but I dislike it's fanbase it's clear show is too intelligent for brainless fanbase that watches it.
I feel like eren was just the wrong person to have power which reiner realized before everyone he had the opportunity to give his friends freedom and took it he says it was no other way but I truly don’t even think he would’ve cared if it was that’s just the type of person he is when he was in Marley stomping on newborns it showed his perspective and he called that freedom multiple times when he was fighting in titan form in season 1 he would say some crazy shit and I feel like everyone ignored that but me for some reason and also I don’t even feel like he was wrong people keep talking about he just continued the cycle but he was going to kill everyone his plan wasn’t just for 80% but he allowed his friends to make their own decision and stop him because he wants them to be free
Reiner was talking about Eren determination to fight back and his strong backbone. Eren wasn't going down without a fight. That's why he said Eren was the "worst person hold that power." If Armin had that power, everyone on paradis would've been screwed because Armin is a diplomatic person. He would've tried to talk, and of course, that doesn't work. Plus, Reiner was Eren's antagonist. Of course, he would say that. The ppl who were Eren's side wouldn't have said that.
believe*
Honestly i get the idea that Eren wasnt truly free until the "i tested it" part, what the heck does that mean? like legit is that something he can do? he can make simulations of how to use the Rumbling and how different outcomes would come out? cause honestly if i see any character in media not acepting he has a predetermined patyh to follow it was Eren, the guy is a contrarian by the nature of how much he wanted to be free, i understand the irony but i still feel conflicted about it
either way really good video!
No he’s referring to the fact that multiple times he attempted to prevent the future (starting the rumbling) by trying to prevent certain memories he saw through kissing Historia’s hand.
One point was when he saved Ramzi from the dock workers, he knew he saved him from his future memories however he attempted to just walk away, but Eren’s nature as a person prevented him from ignoring the kid getting attacked and he defended him. Eren then says when he saved him “I guess the future cannot change”
@@LouDog-bk2sl that's what he means? Then it that case it makes it so much worse imo
@@facilde1 that’s the point, Eren isn’t a saint that is doing the rumbling for a noble cause. He wanted to do it because he was disappointed that the outside world was already inhabited. Eren would’ve likely wanted to do the rumbling whether the outside world hated Eldians or not.
@@LouDog-bk2sli think he was disappointed of how the world outside the walls saw eldians, not that it was inhabited, it was more of a kill or be killed situation, due to marley already seeing eldians as demons, and them attacking first in the first place
@@vicevilla9949 it’s definitely up to interpretation. But I think it’s more to do with the fact that Eren was disappointed with the world being populated and not his to explore.
Armin mentions this in their final conversation when he also shares the blame with Eren’s decision to use the rumbling to kill most of humanity
Eren and the Warriors are equally right and wrong. They're wrong to genocide, but they're right to do what they believe is the only thing that can save their people
Understandable
Understand me, I'm all on Armin's side, but what I dislike about Eren's haters is that they make him seem like a crazy psycho for doing the Rumbling. It's not as simple as that. Don't forget that if he doesn't, the world sends a coalition to destroy his friends and his homeland. It's the tramway problem.
Take our real life. This was the choice Truman had to make when he bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He chose to end the war as quick as possible to save more US soldiers.
Truman is way worse than Eren, even if Truman killed less people. He is worse because there was no certainty that the world would fall under the Japanese. In Eren's case, if there is no Rumbling, it's definitely the end for Paradis. That's the whole point of the dilemma.
My take is still that you should be pacifist and try to avoid war even when such a scenario will unfold.
But I dislike people pretending Eren had another way.
No. There were two ways. The Rumbling (team Eren) OR being ready to accept death (team Armin).
Again, I'm team Armin, but like Armin does in the end, I'll still defend Eren.
Armin (or the rest off the alliance) didn't come up with to save Paradis. Instead he was jacking off to Annie's crystal. The 50-year plan/Euthanization plan weren't even the scouts plan, it was Zeke and the anti-marleyans plan.
After the finale I HAD to go back and rewatch the anime from beginning to end. Took about a solid week. After rewatching, I have no doubt in my mind at all that Eren was in the right. Fuck Marley, Fuck the world. My ONLY gripe was that he didn’t finish the job! Stay humble or get rumbled!
You get!!!!
No, you're simply wrong. Marley had it coming. They butchered the people of Paradis simply because of what their ancestors did. Marley did unimaginably evil things to Paradis, and then all of a sudden Paradis is the bad guy for doing it back?
"What if the choices you made didn't matter" You are getting things very wrong... The choices you made matter ofc, not shit, cause and effect. The real question is, were you free to make the choices you made? or was it determined from the beginning. how do you know that you could've made a different choice in the first place? wasn't your choice dermined already by your genes and environment? Isn't what you are thing right now just a product of what already happened and the laws of the universe?
I mean you kinda explain this well but then you say things like "It didn't matter what choices are made" the thing is that under determinism you didn't really make a choice. It is not a choice if you only have 1 choice.
Interesting cause after watching this show that was my question what does it really mean to be a slave to freedom and wouldn’t you want to be ? lol in a sense right? I understand how the world push Eren to do the rumbling but I wish they would’ve went a lil bit deeper on how he couldn’t stop it….how on earth can’t you prevent a genocide 😭
he didn't try to stop it tho.. that was his excuse, he literally confesses to armin later on
@@TheAngryMontage He literally tried to stop it. Don't defend the shitty writing and character assassination that happened in chapter 139
can you stop saying none of his choices matter. if you believe that aot is deterministic then you can either say eren had no choices as he had no free will, or that his choices were predetermined and they did matter because they would lead to 80% of the world dieing.
For example you said eren would do the rumbling no matter what he did. This is factually incorrect as if he didn't do the rumbling then the rumbling would not happen. The point of determinism is that your choices are determined, however if you somehow did make a different choice a different situation would occur. The point of determinism is that it is impossible to make a different choice and theirfore impossible to change the future.
anyway I enjoyed your discussion on erens desire for freedom. as schopenhauer said man can do what he wants but he can not want what he wants.
If you disagree with any of my points let me know as this is a very interesting topic.
Yea I agree with you in real life it doesn’t matter about determinism because we can’t see the future so we at least have the illusion of choice while eren can’t change the future because the memories he gets already accounts for him trying to change the future thus leading to no change sorry if this makes no sense topics like these should not be discussed over text lol
Proud yaegerist