4x4 suspension lift: Good idea or bad idea? | Auto Expert John Cadogan
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- čas přidán 14. 09. 2021
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This video is an attempt to provide an adequate response to the following Q&A from a viewer named Steven Best:
I was wondering if you may be able to provide some insight into the pros and cons of installing a lift kit onto a vehicle like a dual cab Ute, if you have any information WRT to this matter I would love to hear your advice please.
I have a 2013 Nissan Navara D40 that I recently had a 2-inch lift kit installed, to gain better ground clearance when I am off the tarmac, as the factory suspension did not comply with the M.A.L.S program.
I am very interested to know if I have inadvertently placed undue stress or pressure onto any of the other components in the drivetrain. The facility where I had the work done assured me that the installation of a lift kit was safe and risk free. Many thanks , Kind regards, Besty, (The grumpy old Platoon Sergeant).
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I say unless you really need it than go for it but look at a lot of farmers getting around with stock standard utes. I think the difference between farmers and 4x4 nutters is farmers don’t go looking for holes to get bogged in.
Farmers also have tractors to recovery Ute, farms normally only get all terrains and lockers
Yes! golden
I live on a farm. I noticed the quad bike is so much more capable for challenging off road situations, the whole idea of jacking up a LandCruiser just to go out and get stuck in the first bit of mud you encounter, is laughable and not my idea of a fun day out.
I knew a farmer who had a low ride 2 wheel drive Rodeo as his farm work. Why? Because it was easier to lift objects in the back and if it rained he had a small 4 wheel drive tractor to get around in.
@@tomnewham1269 yep you don’t need all the fancy shiny gear to get by.
John says ‘you must drive more conservatively with a lift kit. You have a moral responsibility’.
And yet, how many jacked 4wds do you see being driven by fwits? Many, if not most.
I think it is a requirement for them to keep the warranty on a lift kit to drive like an fwit.
Word.
What is a fwits?
@@--Nath-- 😀👍
That's like calling all FPV owner Fwits, grow a brain and use it accordingly ya Ming mole
Glad you touched on the reduced vertical travel you get when you lift a vehicle. Despite me being an automotive design engineer, a friend didn't believe me when I told him a 3" suspension lift would give him less travel than standard (also pointed out it was illegal without engineering). I've so far resisted the 'Told you so' type of comments as he's currently attempting to make it drive less like a shopping trolley by throwing more money at it.
I tried 🤷♂️
Lol
I do note with some consternation, that Shauno Whale. Leader of the order of DP Creekians and president of the the Creek itself. Has, on a recent tour of El Sooto, mentioned that he started with a 4" suspension lift and has since reduced it to only 2".
That's tantamount to treachery.
Some people are just hell bent on having to learn from their own mistakes. How many people are genuinely hitting the performance limits in off-road driving of their 4wds? My recommendation would be to increase your off road driving skill level first.
@@bruiser6479 absolutely true.
4wd courses are great.
I've not done one but when I get the chance I will.
I've done years of driving 4wd trucks on powerline maintenance tracks.
Having a 16ton Mercedes Atego bogged at the bottom of a steep slippery slope when the diff locks decided not to engage isn't much fun ha.
@@MattBlack6 I did a course years ago when I lived in the Kimberley. The very clear message of the course was about making good choices. If you dont need to go down a really tough track: don’t. Find a better route. That works for me. I have dug 4wd’s out of bogs and it wasn’t as much fun as it sounds. Also I don’t like wrecking my own stuff.
Good Afternoon John. Thank you very much for responding to my question and delivering this informative film. I truly appreciate your insight and your kind words. Serving Australia has been the greatest honor of my life if I was 30 years younger I would do it all over again. On another note, I would love to have a shirt that read " I took a leak at Dingo Piss Creek" is there any merchandise on the cards ? Many thanks Kind regards, Besty.
The answer to your public service question was an uplifting experience...
Hey Besty, no worries mate. Thanks for the great question. Thinking about merch.
Besty, why didn't you ask John if he celebrates national bush hat day??
@@JohnSmith-yv6eq hahahaha Brilliant
@@jamesmckenzie9551 Gday Macka ! Yeah mate, those were the days,
Modification for off-road performance is a compromise for on-road performance, simple as that. Sort out what your priority is and modify accordingly
ATs are generally overrated. Air pressure is the largest contributer to offroad prowess. Half decent van tyres with a high ply rating are pretty well all you need, and a 12v double cylinder air compressor in the boot (usually have a deflator tool built-in)
I'm currently refurbishing an older hi-lift RWD ute. I was originally planning on just replacing the brake pads, rotors, and tie-rod ends.Two months later and I have started to replace every bush and ball-joint on the entire suspension, as well as replacing the original shocks with heavy-duty gas units. My pedantic nature also has me now pricing new rear springs and front torsion bars. Tyres will be replaced too. I've arguably spent more on the brakes and suspension so far than the ute cost me. However, there is a voice in my head. It's my father, who was a diesel fitter and mechanic. And he's telling me, "Your tyres, brakes, and suspension are the most important components of your car. They are what keeps you in contact with the road and stop you from randomly ending up on the wrong side of the road in the path of a truck. Fix that before you do anything else..."
John's spot-on - working out the trade-off is always the challenge. I've found 2"lift on 32-33" tyres and aggressive all terrains is where I'd stop. Braking, take-off, tyre noise and fuel efficiency will be impacted. Wife will hate having to climb up too! I wouldn't do it to my daily drive. Consider a diff drop kit on IFS vehicles to keep cv angles flat to avoid premature detonation off-road and tearing boots.
John as a old timer trucker I have taught many people to drive heavy vehicles , the best advice I can give them is to drive too what you have.
Laden weight , center of mass and roll center changes greatly from load to load. What you drove yesterday and what you have today even though its the same truck can be remarkable and fatally different. Thanks for spreading some of that understanding to other vehicle users. Shit happens very quickly if you drive a truck thinking it will stop and handle like a sports car.
Same goes for a bloated, and lifted ute. Drive to what it is capable of... not what you wish it to be.
I love watching Matt's offroad recovery and his vehicles are massively modified and he trailers them every time he has to do open roads to an off road recovery, totally makes sense now.
I like camping and dirt road driving in my sedan but when ever I think about buying a Ute or suv or modify my car to go for a wee bit off-roading , I just watch an old episode of Jack absolom getting around the dusty sandy outback in his old 2wd wagon
In my previous life as a wheel aligner (while studying for my engineering degree funnily enough), I distinctly remember driving a customer's Landcruiser with a massive lift kit on it. Was honestly terrifying, it handled like a boat in rough seas. I'm sure it was a weapon off-road but it was bad enough to drive it on a short trip around the block, let alone on the freeway...
I'm a diesel technician and drove a Landcruiser around the block from our shop. It was fitted with a huge camper box on the back, and handled very bad around corners. It leaned over at low speeds even.
A left hand drive one strangely enough, seeing this was in South Africa, where we drive on the left hand side of the road, just like in Shitsville. 😊👍😎
No dingo piss creek here, I live in the four corner states, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico. The most spectacular 4 wheeling in the world. wow, who knew Aussies were such wussies, 35" tires, here in Merica we are doing 37".
My daughter’s boyfriend rocked up in his brand new HiLux last week talking about a lift kit and wheels. As it will be driven on bitumen 99.9% of it’s life, my advice was along the same lines as John’s. Now I have a video from an engineer to confirm it 👍🏻
You are a Good Dad.
I feel sorry for your daughter.
Lift the Lux and you have a driveshaft boot split or similar warranty issue it won’t be covered
@@mrmusicmanic Sell the Lux, and get a Cruise...
It seems boyfriend still has to grow up. He's definitely not the right guy for your daughter.
Legality is an issue. In NSW total lift including tyres and suspension can't be greater than 75mm, and tyre size increase can't be greater than 7%. In other states, tyre size increase is usually capped at 2". If you keep it legal the downsides are minimal and the benefits are worthwhile. These cars with big lifts and tyres beyond legality can easily get defected and insurance claims can be at risk. Big lifts and tyres also cause many broken CV's and rear axles out on the trails where spinning wheels drop onto things like tree roots and protruding rocks. I've seen it a lot.
Excellent point. Was talking lifts etc with a copper client ( I cut firewood) he said he use to be highway patrol on the Hume Fwy VIC. He said first thing insurance company does in accident involving mods , loads or storage boxes or trailer or caravan is to take the mangled lot to a weigh bridge. If you over, your screwed. No insurance for you or the other vehicle you may have hit.
I installed a 2 inch ARB lift on my 2012 HiLux 4WD. it's the best mod I ever did to that vehicle. It now goes places that I could not go before. It has saved the vehicle from rock damage when crossing creeks and rivers. It mostly eliminated body roll to improve the handling of the vehicle. It allowed me room to fit much better tyres on my standard rims. It gives me better vision and provides more safety with an animal strike. It will be the first mod I do to my next new Hi Lux in 2022. Is a lift a good idea ?? Yes it's a great idea, within reason.
This should be compulsory viewing for every off road noob. When I got into 4x4s I was equipped with rose coloured glasses and blissful ignorance . This presentation could have saved me a lot of money and grief .
Wouldn’t make a difference. Kids know better especially in the digitally enhanced world of social media whereby FOMO and influencers do their thing. Ya can’t put old heads on young shoulders as my parents used to say.
Lifted trucks was my like for 20years. One night, heavy rain, tree.... I now drive a awesome Toyota Sienna minivan and still find it hard to believe I drove so long in such unsafe vehicle's that I created with too much money.
Buy a truck if you want to and stuff the biggest tire that'll fit, pretty much leave it at that.
Friend of 4WD Ute owner. “Why do you want to lift your Ute?”. Owner. “So I can find it more easily in the supermarket car park.”
Just pait it traffic cone orange and call it a day
Put a rainbow flag 🏳️🌈 on a big antenna on it !
@@kennyknackers6084
This is always the preferred option in any 115 acre mall parking lot in the Deep South of the USA.
@@kennyknackers6084 with a speaker on the roof belting out 'YMCA'..
If old mate had this bright idea, what's to say that hundreds of other like-minded people didn't arrive at the same conclusion? He'd be back to square one, only a lot poorer and with a vehicle that's not quite right 99.95% of the time.
BOOM!
John, you just keep on bringing nuggets of gold at just the right time 🙏
Keep up the awesome work mate!
John I couldn't agree with you more on this subject. I am a retired CAT&CUMMINGS KNUCKLE BUSTER. I have people ask me those questions quite often and my reply is to them is a vehicle is designed and engineered and when you change that configuration there are consequences!!!
Some people have to look COOL ON THEIR STOOL!!!
John, are you planning to produce Dingo Piss Creek bumper stickers and Merch ? 👍
Looking at the trade-offs, wouldn’t a more sensible proposition be bash plates and a winch rather than a lift kit? The lift kit might mean you can get over 5% more stuff without scraping but it seems like taking way too many compromises with the mechanicals to justify protecting the underside of the car.
Correct. That’s what I did.
FYI My 2017 Hilux SR SINGLE cab is a serious workhorse. I cut firewood and Ute is regularly loaded to a tonne as it has an aftermarket tipping tray. I cut and split trees in forest and deliver to clients wood shed.
Example: Third and last, load from a moss covered patch adjacent to drain below a dam and the crust gave way to porridge. I sunk to my axles.
Low range 4wd made no difference. But my ALDI Winch pulled me out 1t load and all! And in my focus on winch, tree etc I forget to turn hand brake off. Lesson 1: get a winch. I don’t even need to drop the load.
As for underside damage I added full bash plates. Why? Another 50mm will not make a difference when you hit a hidden stump in long grass or a branch swings up under load of one tyre. Lesson 2: drive slow and have blind spot mirrors and bash plates.
Looks? I guess if I wanted to be 4wd hero I would have all the gear but when I pull up covered in mud and wood chip and load of firewood ect to the shiny “Toys”. Each owner knows who is serious and who is show pony.
PS. No snorkel either.
PPS. Carry recovery boards for trailer. But not displayed which only screams “for looks only” being mark free.
PPS. Yes the DPF died. Toyota replaced at their cost $2800. All good.
John you are a legend - I find your videos manage to explain serious and fundamental engineering concepts in a such entertaining way.
I studied mechanical engineering and I wish we had teachers that could at time engage in such funny way when the attention was dropping in order to get the concept at hand across to everyone even at the back of the class.
Well done!
Finally, a video on lift kits and upgraded suspension. Here in Africa we have alot drivers lift their 4WD bakkies (Utes) for better off-road performance but they know little of the consequences of doing that.
Thank you for making it clear and easy to understand.
Thank you Dr. Cadogan for another detailed analysis of the system dynamics! I have explained them to many in the past only to see people walk off the cliff with modifications. I hope the vehicle test organizations take modifications into account when reporting results to consumers so they can understand how their lift-kit provider fits, or not, into the envelop created by the manufacturer. It would be nice to know which vehicles for sale are best for a specific service i.e. lift-kit height and associated tyre and wheel changes. So many think they are rich, until the bill comes due
Back in pre-children days of 1985, wife and I had a Subaru 4WD Leonie, bog standard but after joining a 4WD club and within a year or 2 had fitted a 3” lift kit, 14” Peugeot rims, and all terrain tyres. It really was the duck’s nuts as far as keeping up with the standard Hilux/Pajero/Daihatsu vehicles of the time. I soon found out after doing a few trips to Central Australia and the Gulf Country that the lift kit put stresses not only on my vehicle but the wallet big time. Where the 3” stand-offs were bolted on to the monocoque chassis, cracks developed within the multiple layers of the sheet steel caused by the flexing back and forth on the corrugated roads. In the 4 years we had the car I replaced the CV joints multiple times as well. Since then, apart from minor tweaks and other factory fitted add-ons, every vehicle after that was un-modified. Lesson learnt!
I live at Dingo piss creek, and day to day it's on the track, the only time l hit the black top is once a month going onto town and when on Holidays, all l want is a 4x4 that lasts the test of time and is comfortable on shit roads, the bush has an ability to change a shiney new to scratched and dull in a short time. Cheers all.
And that Comrade is why I've a Forester.
Ford falcon
@@lukedontknow9283 Datsun 180b for me
VY Commy for me. I’ll bet I’ve done more dirt work in it than most of these shiny Toorak tractors that you see getting around.
Thanks for the smile on a dull Thursday arvo in Melbourne lockdown
John appears to only think that poor governance happens in NSW, but you have my genuine sympathy.
How good is it? We can have picnics this weekend.
@@willmcclenaghan109 Victoria's governance isn't what got us in this mess. But it has kept a lot of people out of hospital.
@@ScottMurrayBestFamilyCars I'm glad that you can take comfort in these times.
Don't daily a dedicated off road vehicle. Done.
My Discovery 1 was lifted by two inches. I fitted modified radius arms to maintain steering geometry. Never drove above 50mph. Not for safety reasons, just to save fuel. One thing you should mention when fitting more aggresive tyres is the fact that with the open tread there is much less rubber on the road. Lower contact patch = much less grip, especially in the wet!!!
Alos, if you don't fit bigger wheels and or larger diameter tyres, you haven't increased the ground clearance at all, as the lowest point in most vehicles is the bottom of the diff pan...
thanks John ... love the honesty
Some good advice in there, John - but also a few reasons why I prefer older-tech vehicles without an excess of electronics.
Hi John, Only just a recent convert to your channel, and to be honest, your hyperbole and sarcasm aside, I've really enjoyed most of your presentations.
Found this particular video very enlightening and confirms what I've suspected for a while as I have a stock standard 76 that my very lovely generous GF bought for me (seriously) just before the pandemic.
Whilst I've loaded it up with quite a few extras and accessories for overlanding and remote camping, I'm extremely reluctant to mess with engine performance or suspension and/or bigger tyres for all the reasons you've outlined.
My suspicions were just gut feelings, but you have explained and expanded on them with your usual humor and great aplomb.
Many thanks.
you were spot with the speedo reading i put 33; on my 2014 hilux now the speedo is spot on .
Again, I've learnt so much from this vid.
I knew that the raised centre of gravity would mess with the handling, that the ball joints would suffer, that tyre change affects the speedo, but added info really opened my eyes.
When you mentioned how larger radius tyres mess with braking, it seemed obvious, but was something that I'd never considered.
I'm wondering how sympathetic an insurance company would be when they read the accident report too.
Like others have said, this vid should be essential viewing for off-roaders. 👍
In truth, none of this affects me, my car modding days are done, I only drive short distances on local paved streets/roads, I'm a patient & courteous driver & we pay our insurer by direct debit. 😉
>I'm wondering how sympathetic an insurance company would be when they read the accident report too.
If it's done within the legal limit's you should be fine, if it's not depends on how much the insurance company looks into.
You’ve convinced me! I’m going do some radical ‘mods’ like adding some LED lights in the rear of the cabin, and maybe an extra power outlet or two for the oversized fridge.
Nothing more mentally and physically exhausting than driving an old lifted LandCruiser with worn tie rods to an event. Selling that car and with its teenager mistakes was the best decision I ever made.
Covid granted me a lot of free time to roam around the neighborhood and I've come to notice that AT LEAST %50 of these already overly pumped up factory "utes" are fitted with all sorts of stupid attachments and lifts and noisy AF tires. Apart from the loss of real world performance, safety and proper dynamics - To me they just scream "TOOL" since the majority of these utes are only running from the driveway to the local woolies and bunnings.
Suspension are tuned like motors are... to be good at all situations but not great at one thing. So if these utes are going bush then. Ya wrong.
@@tonybruce Well it is down to the big 'IF' isn't. I can't count the number of boneheads that apply all this added off road ability to suburbia. Three wheeling around roundabouts, must be an Olympic sport, in the Bogan Bible and as such must be practiced whenever possible. That is of course when they can be bothered deviating their course at all, instead of ploughing straight on over the top to test ground clearance and the bump stops.
@@tonybruce I don't think many of these utes are "going bush" in suburbia Sydney.
Gavin, it's not your damn problem.
I changed out the standard tyres on the PX ranger for the next size up. Speedo is spot on now. Couldn't be happier.
This was very helpful and insightful
Excellent review! And that is from an academic! Helpful info that is well-informed and balanced.
Mate you should be teaching this to high school kids, I bet you don't get to write for 4wd sites. Good information made easy to understand.
As an old fart, I firmly believe that the best handling upgrade is to check tyre pressures each time one fuels up.
My stock 2009 BT has towed many modified vehicles out/ home.
Excellent and valuable content. 👍
What a background you have i do appreciate your injection, i bought a defender 1987 model the best easy to fix vehicle i’ve ever had apart from an ami 6 but i bobught it with larger tyres where i was told would be better for of road and as our life would be halfway up a big hill and often washed away and hardly ever driving more than 45-50 k it would be beneficial BUT i we not through a front driveshaft every 18 months yeah being the shorter shaft the angle was steeper, knew nothing about 4x4 when I started out with this truck but it really got my brain into gear.
Good on you. Improving offroad performance will always come at the cost of on road performance. I've tried to do the smallest lift and tires required for my objectives for exactly these reasons.
I'm still not convinced about swerving to avoid skippy. This sounds like an ideal way to lose control of the vehicle, especially on a dirt road. Has there been any research on this approach? I think that sort of driving requires Toby Price level skills. For me, I'll brake but I won't swerve. If braking isn't sufficient, skippy is just going to have to die as in Wolf Creek 2 with John Jarrett at the wheel of his stolen truck. The good news is that I haven't hit a skippy in decades of driving on country roads. Just don't drive at dawn or dusk, or at night if at all possible.
I cannot disagree with you there. Swerving requires very high level driving skills most people don't have (I certainly do not). I had done that three times in the heavy rain (slippery and avoid idiot on road) and twice were perfect (partly dumb luck, partly I wasn't total idiot), the third time wasn't but fortunately no damage was done. Since then, I was convinced swerving isn't my thing, particularly in bad road / condition.
Agree mate...you are trying your luck with swerving
I was of the thought that is be illegal to swerve to avoid an animal. Not sure if that is the case or ever was!
its a fair call in saying "don't swerve" however it is impossible to say how anyone might react in the moment. in a situation where you might only have a half second to react the thought of not swerving might not even cross your mind. i only say this because i've seen it happen with people who had strong stances against swerving.
@@dontforgettobringatowel9106
Yes it’s an impulse. Something is suddenly there and the natural impulse is to avoid it. Best to just brake if you can. If you swerve you might hit something that was next to you.
Thanks for your insight into lift I have a 2006 Grand Vitara which I was thinking of doing a off road trip most of the information I looked into suggested a 2’inch lift and a skid pan but it’s been a good car to me done 235000 klm now listening to you I will save myself from ruining a car that I will need in future as a new car is out of the question as I am retired
Many thanks John
Regards Peter
Peter, I had a 3 Door DV with a 2 " lift as they are low from the factory...best 4x4 ever made, apart from the exhaust being the lowest point and often cam home flatter than round.
Here in the USA a lot of people buy very large American 3/4 ton or 1 ton trucks with crew cab and 4 wheel drive, the first thing they do is put tires and wheels on that stick out from under the fenders.
Then they put a large lift kit on them, all for commuting on bitumen roads and going to the office.
They also seem to think it will still handle like a car and drive about 80mph on the highways,
and yes I experience it every day on my way to work.
I have Old Man Emu springs on my Nissan Frontiers and KYB shocks, this is fine for my work and for the farming work I do
this setup pulls an 18foot 82 inch wide car hauler and either of my 30 or 40 HP tractors and still within factory towing specs.
PS the Old Man Emu rear springs I highly recommend for trailer towing it made my trucks drive much better when towing a loaded trailer.
Great advice advice john. I was considering a lifting my 150 but the trade off is too much. You emphasised the safety and responsibility. I've seen a few nasty rollovers.
I have two nephews who live near Melbourne and like to come to my farm in the West Wimmera to ride their motorcycles, hunt and drive their 4wd Land cruiser. It’s a 90,s GXL wagon and is a bit rough but they have been working diligently on it to get it presentable. I don’t like to discourage them and I always smile and say “looks great” every time they arrive with the next modification, no matter what they have done. Unfortunately they recently were talked into a lift kit. The vehicle was always uncomfortable on farm roads and handled poorly on main roads but now it’s just appalling. It jiggles and bounces on bumps my tractor wouldn’t notice and leans like a palm tree in the wind on a corner the same tractor could go around at the same speed without any problem. It’s hard to get up into the back seat now and while I haven’t driven it I notice from the back seat my poor nephew steering it like a small boat in a heavy sea.
It was never a great vehicle to ride it but now it’s much less great. All to allegedly improve its off road performance that was already quite adequate.
Live in the deep north of Queensland... the after dark kids up here lift 3 or 4 every night.
OEM shotgun shell under the steering column South African style theft deterrent?
ARB catalogue may have one as a retrofit?
@@JohnSmith-yv6eq : Is that brake activated??
@@kadmow
Wouldn't work if it was....
stop for no one from what I've seen on the YT vids....
mind you, they may have heard of that activation method so.....
@@JohnSmith-yv6eq . Lol
Accelerator activated then.. works everyvtime. Lol.. 3 sec delay adds a sporting element.
The most effective anti-theft device in 2021 is a manual transmission.
D40, needs new upper arms to correct the camber at 2".
Car manufacturers spend billions on R & D. They then select the best compromise between handling, performance and reliability. You cannot improve on their design in your back yard.
John, you're spot on, there's always a (negative) trade off.
If you keep your vehicle stock standard, you'll be doing yourself a huge favour in the long run.
If you need more ground clearance sell your little Hilux or Ranger, and buy a Landcruiser. At least that's a proper off road bakkie. (Ute, I mean😎)
Presents a problem .what if you can't wait 4years for a LC300
@@robertceroli3512 Get a used one
The landcruiser has less clearance than a Hilux or Ranger though, because it has larger diffs and underslung leaves.
As always, John, well explained. I couldn't have done better myself. Any modification is about give and take. You improve one thing but compromise another. Understand that, compensate for the modification and happy days, mostly.
Very good information thanks 🙏
I owned a new Hyundai Santa Fe in 2007. Not too far from home was a nice big area of beach sand dunes which was very popular with 4WD'ers. I dropped my tyre pressure and drove up a large dune. At the top was a collection of old Land Cruisers and Patrols lifted to the max and the owners sinking a few coldies and telling war stories. I copped quite a few resentful comments along the lines of, 'how'd ya get that thing up here mate, by helicopter'?
Answer: "Well young fella, when you are as old and rich as I am you can afford to do that".
I off-road in basically stock Japanese 4WDs as they get me from A to B on most tracks. If I want to tackle extreme, I ride a Yamaha WR enduro bike. There are plenty of examples of crap modified 4WDs at Lithgow Macca’s on a Saturday morning or Sunday afternoon.
I used to run a business contracting in large scale weed control, wherein I learned some expensive but valuable lessons. Carrying a 1300L chemical tank on the tray endows one with a harsh lesson in sway and clearance, or rather how tenuous these aspects are even without suspension changes. Now, this was in the early nineties where there weren't many commercial and certainly no factory solutions available (unless you had megabucks to spend on something like a Unimog). This lead me down a rabbit hole of exploration and research, grasping the physics of what I wanted to achieve was in itself, a mind altering experience. To cut a very long story unfairly short, I found the sour spot of trade off unavoidable and tried many smart as well many hair brained options to no avail. The one thing I did find was helpful, was a custom made air lift system which allowed me to gain temporary clearance. This was vulnerable to spiking so I had to carry extra air bags with me. I also tried several other options, the smartest I believe was a transfer bladder, which allowed me to decant the fluid off vehicle, thus enabling me to negotiate difficult terrain without the endlessly moving weight of said fluid. Yes the tank was baffled but that only does so much and 3/4 tank was worse than a full tank, at least the full tank act a lot more like a solid mass without the inertia of fluid slosh.
I run a fishing vessel & it is amazing how little extra water on board dangerously impacts stability.
There are some beauties getting around here in Tas. I saw a Patrol so lifted the body was kinda floating around on the top 10cm of travel. It was about a metre off the ground. They turned a 90 degree left hand corner in town, the steering feedback must be non-existent so they just guessed or got lucky I spose, cause they made it. But the body didnt level itself completely after the turn. It stayed leaning to the right when they straightened up. LOL. Nuts. Driving that on the highway would be like running on stilts.
There is some dude I walk past everyday picking up my kid from school, this raptor or whatever has nearly tractor tyres on it. Im not sure I could lift them in a dingo piss tyre change situation. They must be heavy AF. That car only has a couple of years to live in this configuration but hey....for some reason picking up the kids from primary school needs a Fury Road prop. Poor dude, his crushing inadequacy on display for all self actualised adults to see.
My tip is you keep all the specs within legal mods limits , ie; tyres and suspension , it is the sweet spot for maintaining , handling , acceleration , offroad ability , towing etc . It also corrects the speedo reading. If you go even one size up on tyre size from placarded max for your vehicle thats when issues are raised , in particular towing and getting the show rolling at the lights . When i hop out my legally modded dual cab and back into a standard ute its like hoping from a sports car to a family wagon , standard ute wollows and rolls and leans in corners and needs minor steering corrections , like riding in a boat . Standard suspension is a one size fits all , in reality most people would get away with a shock upgrade without touching springs and maybe springs on the rear to a different spring rate for weight . For the record , Isuzu fixed my gearbox even though the vehicle was lifted (legally) .
So John, ever considered having another go at the topic of chip-tuning? That video went down well!
Spot on!
Maybe a little outside the scope of the video but legal limitations within Australian Design Rules may help new Dingo Piss Creekians. I think 35s are outside specifics contained in Creekians’ modification bibles of the “Light Vehicles Modification Manual”, “Vehicle Standards Information 6 (VSI6)” and “Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14 (VSB14)”
NB. State limits are enforced, it is also dependent on the variance from "Standard equipment" on the variant of vehicle you may operate.
You can legally run up to 37s with appropriate engineering dude
@@chadmullington6643 : With engineering you can pretty much go to the sky - it may even become a newly manufactured one-off vehicle.
@@chadmullington6643Hi Chad, I spoke to an engineer who said they wouldn't touch your vehicle if it is outside of the legal specs. Especially with regard to lifts and larger tyres. Maybe I was told the wrong information? In all sincerity, I would like to know who will engineer your vehicle outside of the specs, and what is generally involved to make it legal? Cheers.
@@patroln48 Realistically, you need to talk to an engineer before, not after you do the modifications.
If you talk to the engineer then modify, the engineer can get a feel for what has been done, who will be doing it, and how quality the work is likely to be.
If you just do it and take the car to the engineer, they have to try and guess if the components are quality or junk, if the workmanship of the install was good or not, and a lot simply decide it's not worth it.
Having driven, since the 1960s, a wide variety of stock-standard 2WD and 4WD utes in all manner of off- and on-road conditions, I find the current fascination with frigging with one's suspension bizarre. Good work, John!
Great video John. I can't understand why people don't just buy a vehicle that does the job they need it to in the first place. Then there is no need to modify it and deal with the engineering compromises that inevitably come with modifications.
John, you forgot to mention the added effect of a lift on the constant velocity joints of the front and rear suspension of non live axle vehicles.
These are already high friction items and the friction/wear increases with increases in shaft angle. The increase in fuel consumption due to increases of friction in the driveline can be very noticeable. Good report, companies like ARB won't like people hearing the facts but tuff titties to them. Because there's "one born every minute" they'll undoubtedly still be able to sell their "strap-on crap" to the masses...
Not a 4WD but my daughters Camry speedo was reading 7 kmh slow. So in other words she is doing a 100 on the speedo but in fact doing 107.
Installed a plug and play “Yellow box” brand speedo corrector which intercepts the pulses generated from the box to the ECU and can be user adjusted for wheel diameter changes. Good for you big wheel boys.
You can even use them for naughty things like overriding speed limiters as you essentially tell the ECU lies. Or for not clocking up the correct amount of kays on your nice ride. But you’ll need a gps for your true speed then. Not condoning it but there’s always a way.
The other thing to keep in mind are the rules on tyre size increase, they were changed recently, Ibelieve for a lot of states and you can only increase rolling diameter by +7% on the largest factory tyre config your vehicle is sold with, so i believe in your example John 33” and 35” tyre would need engineering to be legal on the road in a lot of states, five the 8% and 15% increase.
Indeed so. From what I have seen most Police only check if it's obviously too big and you need a ladder to get inside the cab. But if you are involved in a major collision I'm sure it will come up. Plus even fitting wider wheels can cause all sorts of issues with the law. It's a fun and expensive modification rabbit hole.
@@vk3fbab Not around Richmond/Windsor (NSW). There's a HWP cop who defects a lot of lifted 4WDs (even engineered ones). I've seen them with red stickers so they can't be driven home.
@@p38arover22 there is always one usually in highway patrol who gets all rainman on the ADR. Rank and file Police tend not to be as familiar with the ADR. Tread dept, lights, excessive noise and pollution yes they have some familiarity with but more technical aspects it gets beyond their level of care. I pulled into a breath test and couldn't open the windows (due to electrical fault), copper wasn't phased why I opened the door. Just took my breath test and off I went. Plus now in Vic and NSW they're performing all of these enforcement's for the chief health Officer. It's no wonder they don't go looking for issues.
i have an R51 Pathfinder with a 30mm lift, a set of 265 70 17 AT's and a set of 265/75/16 mud tyres.
Handling on road is still great with either tyre set and off-road is a vast improvement.
The speedo also now reads very close to correct speed with either set of tyres.
Economy is not noticeably affected but the load carrying ability is much improved as I still have adequate ride height and good handling when loaded.
My other mods include a 50lt water tank, storage and dual battery to run my fridge.
All practical mods which increase the off-road touring capability dramatically for minimal cost. I fitted it all myself.
Thank you for this John. I drive a 8 tonne truck and it is very similar to driving my brother’s lifted Nissan Patrol in the handling. You just don’t drive it like a normal car. Although, my sister in law tries to.
Logically explained 👍
This a great topic, a lot of excellent information shared.
With regards to extra strain placed on the driveline and braking when going larger wheels and tyres, would this only exceed the manufacturers design limits once youve reach GCM? If the navara was designed to brake and accelerate with a certain gcm loads, would the extra strained placed by larger tyres still be within the design specs if youre not towing?
With regards to lift kits not being part of the design of the vehicle, what are you thoughts with regards to off road based vehicles released by manufacturers such as the Ford bronco that have a range of varying specs. Their base models are equipped with smaller tyres whilst the sasquach pack (if that is how its spelled) come with 35” compared to 32” and the only difference is an upgraded suspension to accomodate the larger tyres.
I lifted my pickup (2" leveling kit for the front). Due to the design of my vehicle. That was the minimum lift I needed to fit the maximum Tire size without major modification and metalwork. The larger tires stiffer sidewall due to the heavier ply and increase in load rating actually makes my truck far more sure-footed. I did cop a minor penelity for fuel economy, but with a tune, I have offset it slightly and regained a little more power. Tows my camper(caravan) and my whole family. (Lovely wife, 3 breeding awards and a dog) plus I can even make it all the way "fur traders trail". The important thing Is to do your research and have an honest conversation about how you actually plan to use your vehicle.
Great vid. One thing you fail to mention is that almost all suspension lifts will have a higher spring rate and the shocks will almost always be stiffer(even more so if replacing flogged out old ones) too. So wile you cant get around the fact the car is higher. Initial roll in will be generally better controlled. Further more If you are going to tow and load the vehicle to the max i wouldnt want to be on standard suspension. See so many grey nomads like this touring around the place sitting 10mm off the bumpstops.
Love the 4x4, love the maths.
Keep doing what you're doing.
Only just found out about you
I put 33s on my FJ Cruiser and you're 100% correct about your observations on the effects. This has also increased my fuel consumption my a measurable amount. Approx 20-25%.
Fit aerodynamic aids;
a deep (300mm?) thick rubber skirt across the front end and the latest "street sweeper" full width heavy rubber skirt across the back bumper to mitigate those brick outhouse drag factors...
Plus Carrera whale-tail on the Rhino roof rack....
@@JohnSmith-yv6eq I'll just change them back to original spec once they're worn out. Until then I'll just pay the extra in fuel.
Yeah, but you’re getting 40% more Sheila’s.💪
Well said.
This was the video I was waiting for after you touched on this recently. I have a Jimny, weighs about 1 ton and has dual solid axles. I installed longer suspension for a 50mm lift, but also had custom made radius arms that correct the caster angle and diff angles, as well as long travel propeller shafts designed to overcome the lack of slip yoke extension and higher angles after the lift. Finally I had a steering damper installed and have a set of stock road tires/wheels for tarmac use and a set of all terrain tires/wheels that are also stock size for off road use. All that said, the car behaves well on road, no wobbles or new vibrations. Glad to hear a voice of reason when it comes to 4x4 mods. Cheers mate.
>and has dual solid axles.
Not having to deal with the fairly complex task of independent suspension geometry does make the whole exercise considerably easier. Jinmy's look mint, hope you have a hell of a time in yours.
@@hannahranga Cheers, and you're right, I wouldn't want to lift an IFS vehicle, that said the Jimny is close to the same ride height as most stock 4x4s now but I still have to pick my lines to avoid hitting the diff centre on things.
I'm a bit old school and lowered one of my cars by 20mm. Just for looks mainly. If most people stopped doing/purchasing unneeded stuff, economy down the tube.
Gold.
Your explanation of the control arm angles may explain the difference in ride on lumpy corners in a Mitsubishi Outlander vs a vehicle with a lower ride height - The Outlander has a comfortable ride on lumpy straight roads but gets a bit more 'squirrelly' on the uneven corners...
Driving with a 4in lift and 37in tyres I wouldn’t have anything else, the ease and comfort of doing any track out in the bush and still drives fantastic on road.
one thing we may all find informative and funny, is a compilation of suspension failure vids that may be due to the issues mentioned .... like tailshaft pogo, front on video of wheels a kimbo suspension variation over rough ground and other such amuesments
There's a difference between want and need. Aftermarket prey on people who want not need. Most manufacturers in the US have options that customers want to ofl-road. You can also buy secondhand trucks here. I've never been to Australia but it looks like you offerings are a little light for what you need for off-road or trailer pulling?
Thank goodness someone finally correctly addressed the reason larger diameter wheels and tyres reduce braking performance if the brake system remains the same. So many times now I have heard parroted back 'it's the greater inertia of the bigger wheels and tyres' that leads to reduced braking and acceleration performance. That 'explanation' has now become another campfire legend told over and over whilst beers are consumed on those cold nights in DPC.
Yes, we know that a bigger wheel and tyre is a heavier 'flywheel' and moving more of the rotating mass further from the centre will increase inertia, but in the overall scheme of two or three tons of moving vehicle that increase and outward move of rotating mass is worth sweet FA.
I've tried to explain this by inviting people to think of the hub centre as a fulcrum point and the larger diameter wheel and tyre a longer 'lever' between the road surface and the fulcrum. Likewise, the longer the distance between the road and the effective centre of the braking contact area. I've explained that larger diameter brake discs or drums aren't just about the increased braking area, they are also about increasing the leverage on the fulcrum. Sadly, like certain horse dewormers, the fame of the 'inertia' claim has trumped science.
Perhaps, one day, you might move this to a beer garden physics episode and away from the beards around the DPC campfire.
Apart from the relative legalities in various states.
one thing you didn't mention is lifted suspensions topping out or dramatic changes in spring rates near the edges of suspension travel.
and thus the dramatic changes in vehicle behavior when this happens.
yeh people underestimate all those changes to bump steer, front end geometry and similar stuff that you sort of mentioned.
I delayed watching this one as I'm a blue singlet 4x4er by description of John(not really don't own a blue wife beater) and was waiting for another bashing BUT I was wrong , very well thought out video with little bias either way and informative pros & cons well done John on a great review
I agree with you John, but you can use a diff drop kit, it eliminates having to modify the suspension.
Yes you can fit a diff drop kit and that will help the axle shaft angles and CV joints on an IFS suspension setup but you are also lowering the diff in relation to the gearbox position which means you are messing with transmission to diff drive shaft angles. This would be a bigger negative on the front drive shaft because it is usually a shorter shaft than the rear shaft. Dropping the diff on a IFS equipped car will not change the suspension angles. The suspension still bolts up to the raised chassis, it's just the diff that has been lowered. As John correctly says, every mod has an effect somewhere else.
@@petercross8620 which means more angle on the front drive shaft, which luckily is running at 0 degree offset in ome speck, so the angles won't be excessive.
@@petercross8620 you'd be foolish getting an incomplete kit, you do your 6 months reseach in one sqwinty eyed night and get the kit that does everything you want it to do and at the price you are prepared to pay.
spot on but some things can be fixed with modification such as diff drop for cv angles, brake upgrades, swaybar upgrades ect
I love "dingo piss creek" Tell it like it is. We need more people like you.
I think it depends some vehicle need it ..
My 04 jeep wj grand Cherokee
In stock form it just didn't cut it .
No suspension travel, tire clearance
Transfer case dragging ect.
Couldn't drive the jeep line on a main trail going out to my off grid compound if conditions were bad .
So lifted 2.5 inches and kyb shocks rancho steering stabilizer...all the drive shaft angles are still great .
Bolted on 2017 Rubicon wheels and tires . Added Aussi locker in front .
Now it rides right in the jeep line.
No transfercase dragging
No expensive custom drives shafts
Required.
I say only lift little as you can get away with ..
Jeep wj grand Cherokee. Seriously capable rig.
I can lift mine 2" above standard height with the rotation of a switch on the dash - but it gives a max 50km/h speed warning. But at motorway speeds, it automatically lowers 1" below standard height. Of course, it can be lowered even further to make access in and out much easier or to improve clearance in underground car parks. :)
Can you please tell me the details of the setup? Sounds expensive.
@@Samuel_E81 Range Rovers since the early Nineties have had air suspension (rubber air bags like you see on semi-trailers). By adjusting the air pressure in the bags, the vehicle height can be adjusted. The come with 4 modes, access which lowers the car to make it easier to get in and out, highway which is the usual driving height, extended for more ground clearance when off road. These can all be selected from a dash control. There is one more mode (extended) which automatically lifts the car another inch if it gets stuck on something when off road.
john, i see mitsubishi intend to use renault nissan platforms in the near future. good or bad?
Bad when ever Renault has input even just the mention of Renault it sherds reliability
Exceptionally well explained, John but how many people will actually take notice - apart from engineers of course.
Great look at the pro's and con's of some very popular modifications John. Also, to tack a bit onto the warranty or similar, how about insurance in the case of a roll over or swerving to avoid a sheep / roo or what ever. Will an insurance company tow the same line as the warranty and blame the roll over because it was due to you F'ing around with the vehicle dynamics by jacking the ride height and wacking huge tyres on. Cheers.
John. You did not mention the legal implications in your video. Is the any chance you could do a video on this. In Queensland a 2inch lift with 35 inch tyres is illegal as it exceeds the 3 inch maximum. Thanks tim
At 62 it's difficult to lift Old 4×4... I'm not sure which girlfriend/partner/wife named it "4x4" when it's closer to 4x12... and that's why it's just so difficult to LIFT these days... it's just to figgin' big! 🤣🤘🤘
legend makes perfect sense
oh and you can fix shaft angles with slip yoke eliminators
Whats your thoughts about the 6×6 land cruiser conversion
Keep IFS vehicles lift to sub 50mm has pros and cons, mainly CV angle being the con. Leave tyre size OEM size with a higher load rating with an AT tyre. Bigger tyres has lots of cons and the only pro is a small gain in ground clearance under diff. Keep it modest in mods. ESC system is the limiting factor in bigger diameter tyres, thus illegal in Victoria without going through some big hoops.
You’d need to find out the tolerance and delta on indicated/actual on the GPS unit.