Traditional Grip vs Match Grip On
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- čas přidán 6. 01. 2024
- I know it’s a hard truth… and I’m not trying to trigger anyone that plays that way… I play that way myself.
As far as your comment, the & index and middle fingers are not always at play in traditional… whereas in match grip, ALL of your fingers are at play, 99% of the time.
Although traditional is a beautiful style that has its own unique feelings, it does offer huge technique handicaps to overcome… these handicaps just don’t exist in match grip.
It doesn’t mean that traditional is a bad or wrong way to play… and these handicaps can be overcome.. but they are definitely there.
As far as “caressing” … that might feel like it comes more naturally in the cradle position. But that’s simply because you have less control… ergo you are using fewer muscles to manipulate the stick. That’s not necessarily a benefit.
And that same level of caress can be developed and is used by matched grip drummers all over the place... Bill Stewart, Benny Greb, Gary Novak, Mark Guiliana, etc… the answer comes down to practice. And the truth is… you will get there faster if you use match grip.
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"Traditional" grip was invented for one reason adn one reason only - the marching strap for drummers covered the left side/shoulder and had to be reached through to play the drum, hence the weird left hand grip that put only the stick through to gap to leave room enough to play. If that grip was superior, they would've used it for both hands. It isn't and is literally nothing more than a relic of a bygone era.
Being a lefty in a marching band really sucked. And as soon as I turned from match grip to left handed traditional, I couldn't get any teachers to teach me. They didn't know how.
It needed to be said! Don’t hate the messenger!😂
Well said. I believe I saw Thomas Lang talk about how having to overcome the drawbacks of traditional grip had value to him.
Personally I play only matched grip. I didn't choose matched grip when I started playing, I just happened to be taught it.
I'd be hella pissed if I someone told me that I learned an essentially inferior grip.
I also believe Jim Chapin or some other all time drumming great had a falling out with their drum mentor when they decided to abandon traditional for matched grip.
This discussion will go on well after I pass .
Even Weckl implied he would play matched if he was to do it over but said he isn't going change at this point in life.
Just learn both. Boggles my mind that people don’t. It all reinforces one another.
How so?
What for? It makes no sense for me to teach my left hand a weird grip different from my right hand.
You certainly can.. but you don’t need to learn both.
@@amjan Then do both hands.
@@enzolescure5833 The muscles you develop do to your hand being supinated. A strong traditional grip makes for an even stronger match grip.
It was a subtle difference for me, but playing traditional grip versus match grip introduced a different touch to my playing. I would do completely different things with one grip over the other.
A hard truth...? Eh. I'm a mostly matched guy but I've found that trad lefty grip is good/better for certain things. It is true that trad doesn't get much out of the back fingers, but in place of that it gains the strength of the thumb and make more of the rotation of the forearm, if needed. I also have left hand grip problems sometimes with matched that I never have with trad. It's also just different for certain things - like backbeats. Due to stick angle and motion, the timing of backbeats has a bit of a natural push for me with traditional, which is cool when I want that. Open-hand style would be funky with traditional, although if I wanted to do much of that I'd lower the hi hat anyway, which would help.
The biggest detriment I see with trad is when I want to go high for lefty things, like higher toms or left side cymbals. The rotation needed with the arm to raise the stick high has never felt as natural. If I was really dedicated to trad, however, I would alter my setup ergonomically to help accommodate.
I don't know whether it would have been 'harder' to develop as a trad player versus matched since I can't go back and re-do everything to find out. If a beginner asked me for a recommendation, I'd say go with whichever one you're drawn to - and if you progress to an advanced skill level, then check out the other way, too.
Well said… all great points 👍🏻
I don't support traditional grip over match grip. The reason I started using it was because it actually felt way more comfortable for my incredibly weak left hand. But I have still come across that they don't sound quite the same somehow, not necessarily one better.
Great explanation, you have it right. Many will say, "oh, but with jazz, you can get all those little subtleties and ghost notes with traditional grip", but you can do the same and more with matched. I think there is a snobbishness with using traditional grip and a lot of players who learned it either group up in that era when it was common, or decided to learn it with the hopes it would make them better. I think they try to convince themselves that it's so much better.
Thank you!!!
I’m an intermediate rock drummer who recently got to that age where I like jazz. I thought it’d be cool to try traditional grip just for fun. After only a few weeks my singles were faster and cleaner than match grip. I had literally never used it before but it felt really natural. I think it might be because I use my thumbs a lot when I’m ADHD finger drumming, which mimics the “opening the door” motion. So perhaps it’s still worth trying for a bit even if match grip is theoretically the better technique.
I wouldn't call match grip "Better" ...but it has less of a handicap
Drummers like Vinnie Colaiuta,Steve Gadd , Virgil Donati and Dave weckl ,in his own modified way Stewart Copeland all use Traditional. Some people in American Marching Bands are massively good at Traditional and Some People have learnt to get massive power from it. In my early days in high school my 1st teacher taught me Traditional Grip,my second matched grip French style and my next teacher Matched German style. I studied classical percussion a bit later on and now know a million Percussion grips for mallets and everything. On kit I developed the Matched american style too. Even though it was developed for angled drum Marching situations it traditionally carried into Jazz and Early rocknroll. People who play traditional can often switch between matched and traditional and as I have found for the way I work it depends on what you are playing and the "feel' of the situation. Traditional can be very helpful with ghost notes and alot of swing jazz. just include it as an extra tool. It worked for legends like Louie Bellson, Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa. Think of how useful and developed and what could be done with traditional in buddy Richs technique. Tony williams switched between Both.
For me its about necessity. Left arm going blue and seizing up until I switched to matched. Ive had 4 ops on that arm/shoulder and it's knackered. Thank marching drums there is another way
agreee ... am a huge fan of Gary Novak , i was crazy into Weckl and Moeller since the age 15 to 24 but then i met Gary Novak few times at the gigs in Europe and i simply love how he doesn´t care about perfection and simply sits and play everyting with the greatest finnesse and looseness ... so i change my set into the small 50´s jazz kit (into horizontal, flat angle) and since then i play only match (playing mostly with the bottom part of the stick - in Gary´s or Gadd way) ... it´s simply fulller, fatter sound ... and i don´t care how it looks, to me it sounds better
Hi Jay! Could you please give some tips or examples for playing swing with matched grip?
What you play… in terms of notes and rhythms isn’t different… what’s different is how it feels.
@@Thedrummersalmanac Thank you! Do you know some drummers who play swing using matched grip?
@@leaproicheva Absolutely... look up Bill Stewart... Mark Guiliana... Gary Novak, Brian Blade, Will Kennedy, Benny Greb... etc
One thing that i feel is never talked about is the different stick angle that comes when using traditional, in the past drummers used to angle the drums, but now they are (mostly) used flat, and so the traditional grip hand stick, falls in a 35 degree angle while the matched grip hand stick is almost parallel to the drum, in that sense is more natural to raise the stick with matched grip (using the wrist) and get to a 90 degree angle than to achieve that with traditional grip.
On the other hand (get it?? hand...), the angle created by the traditional grip makes ghost notes easier.
Having practiced both for several years, i think that matched grip makes more sense, and traditional was created in order to fix an issue with tilted marching drums, an issue that none of us face today.
Of course with enough practice both of them work and that-s fine.
I don't think either grip is superior to the other. I think matched grip is great for a lot of music, and traditional is great for a lot of music, too. I started out playing matched, then started playing around with snare placement, and found that the old canted angles that Big Band guys played at just sounded better and required less effort to play at, since you were using gravity instead of fighting against it. This required learning traditional grip in order to play at those angles, and I developed a completely new playing technique in the process. I don't shun anyone for playing either, and I think matched grip will get you 90% of the way through. Traditional grip is there for the other 10%.
Match grip offers handicaps in several genres, including jazz - plus, with traditional grip, there is less stick in the way as you move around the kit in quick, cross directions - the stick is more 'out of the way," which works better than matched grip for some things.
I 100% dissagree with this. There is no handicap with playing Jazz in match grip... Look at Benny Greb, or Bill Stewart, or Will Kennedy, or Gary Novak, Marc Gulianna etc... This stick is not more "Out of the way" ...it definitely feels different, but it's certainly no better. I'm a trditional player 90% of the time. But these are the facts. In terms of motion around the kit... One of the biggest handicaps with traditional is... you start out in a "flexed" position. In a resting position, the cradle hand is already rotated making your full stroke arch max out at a much more choked angle then with matched... It's nearly impossible to achieve a 90 degree Full stroke position without developing a stretch. Ergo, you have to stretch or unnaturally twist your elbow into your side to achieve a similar arch. This hampers all movement... especially cross-overs. It's another physical hurdle of traditional. It still can be beat... but it takes extra work that doesn't exist in match grip.
I play both. I will say traditional grip is a bit ergonomically better, as there isn’t as much strain on my shoulder when I hit the floor tom with my left hand and I don’t have to turn as much, but there admittedly isn’t much strain in the first place. I don’t find traditional grip to be a handicap, but if you do, please stick with matched grip. As my chemistry teacher always said, the right method is the one that gets the right answer.
From a rudimental perspective - when you focus on sound quality, aka having equal resonance, control, and velocity through both sticks, matched grip gets you there objectively faster 1000%. That is why in the modern marching band scene were are seeing an increase in matched grip playing for high schoolers. The reason DCI-level snares play traditional grip on flat? Purely for aesthetic purposes (stick tricks) and a greater level of challenge. That's it.
But most drumset players don't care about perfect sound quality or perfect rhythmic accuracy. In fact, when I play jazz kit the difference in resonance and natural weight is desired, and the lack of perfect-ness in the left hand, as other people in here say, can make it "swing" more.
I hear ya.... but I also think this subjective idea of "It swinging more" is in the mind, not in the actual sound. I know plenty of matched players that swing their asses off. The grip has nohting to do with it. It's all about the practice.
If both hands are the same (physiologically) why are the grips not the same?
Any time I hear someone attempting to impart "truth," I immediately become skeptical.
If the drum is directly in front of you, you're holding the sticks identically, and have no physical defects in either arm, nothing should be different. We all have weak and strong sides, and we will favor the strong side. That would be the only real difference.
Pure physics. You use more muscle groups with overhand (matched grip) play, and the bones in your forearm allow for greater lift, so that these rock drummers can show off.😂
You were taught that way, so you play that way.
Buddy Rich said the same thing.
He was wrong, too, even though he often used matched grip.
What you "like" or "prefer" is no basis for truth, only opinion.
Traditional grip comes from side drum playing.
Move the drum around, flip the hand over. Perfectly logical.
By the way, on a recording, no one could ever tell if I used matched or traditional grip.
They also couldn't see me spin a stick...😋
I think Thomas Lang said it best... "Traditional grip was invented as a work around for an obstacle that modern kit drummers don't have". Matched IS the superior grip... not even arguable, from an ergonimic/biomechanical standpoint. The only counterpoint you can use is from an artistic/feel angle. That being said, the only people who care what grip you use are other drummers. If you can express yourself on your instrument, without injury, have at it.
Traditional angle on Non traditional angle, never understood the science behind this one😊
The angle should reflect the form. The more parallel the stick is with the surface of the drums, the greater the rebound.
@@Thedrummersalmanac You can rebound only so far with traditional grip. Try to get the stick greater than vertical. You can't. The bones in your arm and the muscles won't allow it.
Plus the fact trad grip was more a comfort issue rather than a specific grip in my opinion, I do try it occasionally but always revert.
I just don’t get why you’d hold one hand to a different standard than your other hand 🤔 If they believe the traditional grip was a superior technique then why not implement it in both hands?.
Because drums used to hang down around your right thigh. Trad grip made it more convenient on your left hand while you were marching. It makes zero sense to hold the right hand that way. The best drummers in the world (subjectively!!) play traditional grip. Makes you think?
It seems like if someone is convinced traditional is better, they stick to their belief (no pun intended on the stick). But I agree, probably it’s more sensible today to use matched. It’s just apparently lowlier, for reasons unknown to me. 😊
@@gsxerwhite I think that's dependant on the genre. For instance in metal it's practically all matched grip because you can hit harder and can play ambidextrous (more easily), even when there's a lot of dynamics like in prog metal (see Baard Kolstad for example). In Jazz I reckon traditional grip is more popular because of tradition and because ghost notes play a bigger part..
Drumming aside, at least your a person with critical thinking skills, like myself, who tries to see things for what they are and what they aren't. And using simple logic and sometimes not so simple, to deduce and boil things down to their essence while taking into account certin things and scearios and unknowns to boil out the fluff and leave the truth or seemingly mst plausible explanations for things and reasonings in the bottom of the metaphoric pot. Than when you add drumming, i think thats why your channels successful. Wether its drumming or guitar or many other industry's, marketing has been huge, and with yt channels an communities, its so easy for things to ecome an eco chamber. Where ppl so easily repeat what theyve heard/seen/read/been told, and thats so dangerous. Its no different than the news or politics, where if you just accept everything at face value, your Gunna,100%,get duped and led astray for not thinking for yourself and coming to yiur own conclusions. So i applaud when ppl question standard troupes, that most just have accepted as "the thing" ( truthful or not) and challenge the reasoning. Often big groups of dummies than change their tune real quick. And now all the sudden itll be "nope, traditional grip is worse cuz that guy on the screen told me dat" when in reality that isnt exactly what you said,and it wasnt comoletely your point. But hey round n round it goes,as it alway will. Keep up the good work in the meantime
I appreciate this comment… bravo. 👏🏻
What?
I get better feel around the rim on the snare, better accents with traditional grip. But that's me. There's also gotta be a reason some of the best drummers ever play traditional.
It’s because that’s what they developed. Most of those same players will tell you the same things I’m saying… it’s a stylistic thing and there’s tons of artistry and beauty in the style… but it does have a tax you have to pay if you choose to play that way.
One thing that is also a fact is that traditional grip allows you to change the angle of the stick in relation to the drum in ways that match grip cannot replicate without extreme discomfort. These angles generally give a different tone from the drums especially when comping. Matched grip is also slightly less intuitive for whipping strokes because your wrist cannot as easily lead the arm upwards. Where traditional grip, it is more natural to let your wrist lead the arm up granting you easier access to a heavy accent right from a tap quickly. And yes I have played and studied both grips. Match grip is generally an easier more versatile style but certainly still has its drawbacks
I Appreciate your insight… Every grip has things that you have to develop… but the there is nothing one grip can do that the other cannot. Things like “tipping” in traditional certainly feel different, no doubt… but I don’t think the angle produces a different sound… and certainly not one that can’t be replicated in match grip. It’s all just a matter of practice. I feels different, but doesn’t really sound different. I would definitely disagree with things like whip strokes being more “intuitive” in traditional. You have to completely rotate your wrist to accommodate a Moeller stroke. That was certainly a handicap for me. It took a long time to find a solid backbeat with traditional grip. Something I never had to think about in match grip. But yes, things definitely feel different… and if you enjoy the feeling you get with traditional… as I do… then that’s a great reason to play that way. It doesn’t change the fact that there are a lot more handicaps to overcome in traditional. But if you are committed to the style and tradition, taking that time is time well spent.
@@Thedrummersalmanac definitely agreed on most of your points. I still don’t think I’ve successfully seen true tipping in matched grip. The drastic nearly vertical angle traditional grip can provide definitely provides a different tone. It is subtle but if you play the two techniques back to back on the same drum there is an audible change
@@kaiowens1616 ...exactly... you won't see "Tipping" in match grip... But the sound of tipping can be achieved without "tipping" in match grip... and honestly, I think you are splitting hairs about any audible difference. C'mon now, If I were to record two tracks, one with tipping and one in match grip... you think you'd be able to hear the difference? I would take that bet.
@@Thedrummersalmanac I believe if they were back to back I could hear a difference. Not saying it’s a good or bad thing but it does sound a bit different. Definitely enough to be audible
@@kaiowens1616 maybe… it’d be a cool experiment.
You re right. And you cant achieve Dennis Chambers speed and power with trad. Not even Virgil can match Dennis in that aspect. But trad is there for anyone who wants to use it. I dont use it anymore for anything.
Dennis is a physical freak… but so was Buddy… and Buddy played traditional.
Traditional grip players should play open handed lol. YES I learned traditional, it's a cool thing to learn but it bizarre. Steve Gadd we ALL love the dood, but lol his left shoulder dipping like he has a 25 lb weight on it is ridiculous, worse posture ever in the human race when there's no need to play like God made you crooked. 99% of ALL traditional players -- look at they're left shoulder, their body is reacting to an un natural grip/position, that's why their L shoulder is lower than their R shoulder. Match is natural, traditional is *learned* and un natural. Love when an intermediate traditional player hits the crash lol just above the HH. Talk about *un natural.* But yeah once you've put the 5k hours into traditional you'll be fine. Just make an effort to raise your left shoulder so it's even with your right shoulder like match grip players. Peace
If you want to play open handed traditional a waste of time.
If you're dominant on the right want to compensate for your weak hand use traditional.
Ironically, Using traditional doesn’t really help strengthen your weak hand… in fact 90% of my strength, speed, and endurance work outs are in match grip because traditional doesn’t utilize a lot of those muscle groups.
If there are more small muscles learning control such as your other fingers then matched is way better. You’re using too much energy on your index when you can spread the load to the ring and middle, maybe even the pinky to reduce sprain to the tendons.
Traditional is archaic and is only used as a vanity metric as per this comment section. People arguing that it’s superior over matched sound like the annoying blue haired hipsters that claim that records sound better than cd’s but can’t tell the difference when blind folded.
And to add, for older players such as me who have taken up marching band, I endure chronic arthritis in my left thumb… I love traditional grip, but long practice sessions aggravate my thumb. With matched I can still go for hours.
Traditional grip is just for those people that want the attention of "look at me, I'm using traditional grip. I am so super cool." That is all.
Well that’s not true… things definitely feel different… and if you prefer that feeling, then traditional grip is a great style.
No