Trope Talk: Grimdark
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- čas přidán 24. 09. 2020
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ERRATA: As a few people have pointed out, Tolkien fought in World War I, not World War II. My b!
Grimdark! A term I've contemptuously used many times - but what does it really mean? And is it truly worthy of my scorn? Let's pretend I'm unbiased long enough to examine it!
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"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute.”
- G.B. Stern
That’s actually a clever thought.
Dang, that is a really interesting perspective to seeing it
I would argue that the optimist would build a parachute because, well they think it can be of use in that moment, a true pessimist would think that once a plain starts crashing there is no surviving.
That sounds inaccurate and really stupid
@@vintheguy my thoughts exactly.
"Children already know monsters exist. We tell them these stories so that they know monsters can be killed."
Or alternatively placated with gifts and odd habits/behaviors/rituals.
And let's not forget monster fetish people...
@@laurenkirby97 you're not adding anything to the quote, you don't appear to understand what it means.
@@moredetonation3755 Nope, not in the slightest...
Pretty sure this is the original:
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." - G.K. Chesterton
You grow up when you realize that while monsters can be killed, no one can be bothered to kill them.
"Hope is a myth used to motivate men to do what they cannot"
"Y'know pal... You almost say that like it's a bad thing" - Superman
Zac Snyder: Who are you? Where’s my Stoic Glaring God?
Superman: Which god Darkside cause I ain't a god just a person that wants to do good
baller quote by superman
Then it really isn't myth anymore, is it?
"Super or not still a man and i am a God" -Darkside
"There is no happy ending."
Except the orks in 40k, all they care about and want is war, and the world of Warhammer has plenty of it.
The only sad ending for an ork would have to be, like, the flu or something.
WAAAAAGGFFHHHHH!!!! - A Happy Ork
@@PanthereaLeonis I’m not sure they believe in disease, so they can’t catch it.
yeah they're just living Valhalla
The Orks Grimdark is that they can never have fights that their ancestors (Krorks) had.
Good grimdark doesn't say "you're stupid if you believe you can win." Good grimdark says "even if you can't win, fighting on for a valorous cause and doing the right thing is its own reward."
@Trobbins1992 though the Lion was always a tantrum prone stuck up piece of shit.
I feel like there is hope, but it's somewhere else than the main conflict
Stab Death in the eye with a chainsaw and scream "I'M READY, HOW 'BOUT YOU!?"
That's precisely what makes stories like Berserk so interesting and thrilling to read
*Cries in Cadia*
Small note about Tolkien: he actually fought in World War One. In WWII he was a codebreaker.
Thank you; I was going to point that out. Mordor draws a lot of inspiration for the bleakness of trench warfare.
@@stephenskinner7207 Although Tolkien himself hated it when people called LotR a WW1 allegory.
Being inspired by his experiences doesn’t mean the work became an allegory for them
@@MrSamulai Man's not a fan of allegory. Can't say I disagree with that
@@JackClockerinos II think it was more that people comparing his books to WW1 often undervalued how he took far more inspiration from old sagas and his family (basically what the Tolkien film did).
"There are no happy endings"
Well there is Tuska the Daemon-Killa, happiest creature in 40k, fighting for eternity
Ah, the ork that found Orky Valhalla.
And then you have Trazyn the infinite, happily collecting artefacts to keep parts of the universe alive.
ORKZ IZ DA HAPPIEST GITS OV DEM ALL!!
"The Doom Slayer"
"The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude." - Eldar Philosopher, Uthan the Perverse's thoughts on Orks
4:32 Regarding this, imagine how awesome it would be to see the opposite. Take a character that feels straight out of 40K and plop them in an extremely hopeful, heroic setting and see the cheerful atmosphere erode the shell of grimdark around them and put light back in their life.
That doesnt work Always. How would a Krieg deal with that? He would kill himself. Because thats what they do
Take a lamenter and put it in any other fictional universe, seriously just do it
@@Your_Average_Warlord_Titan Every 40k fan ever: Please, let the Lamenters get something good happen to them
I think centaur world did something like that with horse and the centaurs
I swear someone made a comic about like a guardsman being put on some kinda like happy rural world
"Grimda-"
The 40k community, bursting through the wall: *Hello*
Nobody expects the Imperial Inquisition! Our weapon is surprise! Surprise and Exterminatus!
The Imperial Fists are rebuilding that wall you destroyed
You should have added a "there"
Euan Smith And our fanatical devotion to the God Emperor!
*Teleports from orbit into the newly rebuilt wall*
“Inside every single cynical person is a disappointed idealist” -George Carlin
Isn't it inside every cynic?
DemonGuysaysHi oops, you didn’t saw that.
@@gabrieldeoliveira8304
My eyes, ears and lips are sealed.
DemonGuysaysHi good, make it stay that way.
Inside every idealist is a cynic, infinite recursion.
"The setting can be grimdark, but the stories don't have to be."
Ehhhhhhh, I guess? I mean a non-grimdark story in a grimdark setting would fit in about as well as a death scene in Thomas the tank engine
@@GremlinEnby horrifyingly in place?
@@seal8900 bad example, a better one would be a r-rating on a Disney movie
@@GremlinEnby Deadpool?
Hey hey people
“There are no happy endings”
Those two guardsmen who discovered a knife stl and both got planets to retire on:
but that isn't very grimdark now is it
@@lv100Alice No, but that's partially the point; jokes aside of course.
Those guardsmen retired to a planet, which is a victory in and of itself. However, what happens afterwards? Entirely regardless of whether or not the audience sees it, that "victory" is temporary at best on the galactic scale. They will still die: whether from old wounds, old age, or the myriad of galactic threats. They may have achieved victory in the short term, but the Grimdark always gets you.
That's one of the things that makes it awesome. Whether or not you WILL lose tomorrow, you won today. Cherish that.
A knife STC? Can the Mechanicus not mass produces knives or are STC's so ridiculously valuable that even if one is found to be useless, its existance as Imperium property is good enough
@@armintor2826 Your latter question hits the nail on the head directly and firmly. Regardless to whether or not it is an STC fragment that is already possessed, the Imperium does not have the resource to replace them. By having a spare, should the worst ever come to pass and the first is destroyed somehow: well we have another, thank the Emperor.
That doesnt change the Overall outlook of the setting. 40k is a grimdark setting, and as mentioned, some of the stories are not grimdark stories, they are just in the grimdark setting of 40k
Grimdark: mentioned
40k Fans: *WHOMST HAS SUMMONED THE ANCIENT ONE?!*
Yup
*WHO AWAKENS THE ANCIENT OF RITES?*
@@kabob0077 Rylanor!
I am Rylanor of the Emperor’s Children, Ancient of Rites, Venerable of the Palatine Host, and proud servant of the Emperor of Mankind, Beloved by all! *I reject you now and always!*
I've came as fast as I see the word brothers. Let's spread the light of the Emperor upon this blessed channel
“Ernest Hemingway once wrote, ‘The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.’ I agree with the second part.”
Se7en was a fantastic movie
Excellent film.
You know Hemingway committed suicide, right?
Damn it you beat me to it!
Goddammit someone posted this before me!
Tolkien: writes one of the darkest settings one could think of, filled with ancient evils, eldritch horrors, and a lingering sense of dread as you are slowly corrupted by the One Ring. And that's not even getting into the Silmarillion.
Also Tolkien: writes Tom Bombadil.
Warhammer is darker
@@jadynbaxter5692
Not relevant.
@@jadynbaxter5692 Tolkien was earlier whats your point
@@xynged ok? Did I say that warhammer was earlier? I said it’s darker and the lore is much vaster
@@enderthedark5843 it kinda is…. The topic was dark universes so I stated one, dunno what your getting at 💀💀💀
To me, the appeal of grimdark is that it depicts trying as a good thing, whereas most media depicts succeeding as a good thing. Like, most media will have a darkest hour moment where they’re like “oh nooo, our protagonists might not succeed, all their trying might turn out to be pointless!” Grimdark more often says “our protagonists tried, and failed, but it still matters that they tried.” It’s like that one tumblr post about tragedies that said something along the lines of “the love didn’t save anyone, but it was there and it mattered.” Since stories are meant, in part, to inspire people by relating them to the protagonists, if all people have are stories of successful heroes to be inspired by, when they fail they might lose that relatability and stop being inspired. If someone is inspired by grimdark heroes (such as Lamenters from 40k), they either succeed or continue to find the heroes relatable.
On a much simpler note, almost every non-grimdark story ends with “good guys win and bad guys lose,” so grimdark is really the only genre where I actually wonder what the ending will be like. Protagonists overcoming hopeless odds means the odds weren’t hopeless, so grimdark is mostly alone in having characters actually face hopeless odds.
Obviously there’s also just shitty nihilistic grimdark, and that’s bad, but it’s not inherent to grimdark
You 100% nailed it. I was going to write a very similar comment: At 15:40 this video says that persistence in the face of hopelessness being encouraging is an appeal of grimdark, but assumes that it can only be encouraging if it is rewarded. I think the fact that it is not rewarded is the beauty of the theme - persistence in the face of hopelessness is not a good thing *because* it gives you rewards: if it did, it would not be hopelessness, as you wrote. Grimdark reminds me that persistence is an inherent good, it's not only good when it is rewarded.
An Imperial Guardsman in WH40k is, most likely, completely doomed, and everything they do is for naught. The hope that drives that character is, from a factual perspective, foolish and incorrect, but it is NOT wrong of them to have it. Their life will go poorly and there is nothing they, or anyone else, can do about it, but their experiences still have value. They are incorrect to hope or the relationships they build are ultimately pointless, but their hope and relationships still have value.
For most of us, we will die and be forgotten, making no lasting impact on the world. Having hope that we, personally, could make the world significantly better is wrong more often than not, as it is in Grimdark, but we are right to believe so anyway.
Does the story insist that the trying matters when the trying accomplishes nothing? It seems to me that consistently depicting trying as futile is admonishing those who try.
“And just because a story is depressing that doesn’t mean it’s deep or complex” Ben Yahtzee Croshaw
I only wrote this because a, comment with out replys looks naked to me.
@@felipeortiz8832
And just because the good guys win that doesn't mean the story is hopeful or inspiring.
@@Wesker10000 Glorious Bastards comes to mind
I personally dont really like Yahtzee but every so often the man makes a really good point
Obligatory C.S. Lewis quote: "Since it is so likely that [children] will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage. Otherwise you are making their destiny not brighter but darker."
Any idea on the sauce of that quote? I appreciate his philosophizing...mostly...and I want a bit of ammo to stave off my own descent into grimdark about the actual world I'm living in right now.
I have to disagree to an extent, I think that we should have heroes (too an extent) but they do need to be believable, and we should of course encourage moral complexity. Heroes should never be pure or perfect, they should fail at times, and sometimes they should even be immoral (so they can learn from it).
Heck it's also important for nuanced villains, because ultimately kids should also know that those 'cruel enemies' are still human beings who probably have understandable motives. Maybe by encouraging nuanced villains we encouraged people to deal with each other via understanding instead of crushing their opponents mercilessly
@@AeneasGemini I mean yeah. I don't think anything in the quote really goes against that. I see it as being more about having heroes at all, instead of the grimdark idea of everyone being a terrible person. A flawed person overcoming their flaws is still, in my mind, a heroic action.
Wish more people would realize that a good person is actually realistic and that even dark stories benefit from such because it makes the whole thing more believable and adds weight. You want to know what one of 40Ks best stories is?
It's the story where some Space Marines make a hard decision while traversing ork-infested territory and run into a mother and her young child also trying to escape. And the hard choice they make? *Bringing her along with them because it's the right thing to do* rather than leaving two insignificant civilians to their fate. They do the right thing not because it's easy but because it is the right thing, even though it makes their mission harder. Yet so many "realistic" stories that are really just grimdark would have the mother and child left behind while extolling the virtue of making "hard decisions" that are actually taking the easy way out for the guy making the choice.
@@Luke_Danger I mean the example you gave doesn't make the Space Marines good people though, it just shows they can do a selfish good deed.
I was called naive and was 'protected' for being kind and polite. And as I got older, I almost fell for it, in that I almost gave up on being kind. Then, my dad passed away. In my memory, he loved my kindness, and he always supported me and though he didn't have favourite children, mom always says that I was his favourite. I really miss him, but kindness in the face of negativity shows my strength and kindness shows the influence of my dad and my Father in my life.
I'm sorry for your loss, but I'm glad to know you didn't give up.
@@lego007guym8 Thank you ^-^ I decide every day to keep going
Cheers to that, Zen. To all the people who choose to be good above all else. 🍺
give it some time. that'll get beaten out of you.
@@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong They haven't succeeded in 23 years, I have good hopes for the future.
As a thing to add, I personally find SOME grimdark refreshing. As someone with clinic depression and severe anxiety, watching someone in a undeniably worse situation and truly hopeless one at that, never giving up and continuing to claw forward can be serve as a bit of a recharge. Sure this person is fictional and the world cartoonishly dark and grim, but they still have hope no matter how much the setting wants to crush it.
Also woo to learn Red plays 40k! or at least did.
I completely agree; that whole "indomitable human spirit vs the cruel, indifferent universe" concept is one that's stayed in my mind for a long while now, driving me forward. Easily one of the best ways to write a story in my opinion.
This is honestly why I love dark and horrific stories in general. It kinda gives me the feeling of "if they can make it through something this terrible, maybe I can as well."
Yea, I get that
I don't mind _some_ darkness (ie: The World of Darkness/Shadowrun/Cyberpunk role-playing games), I'd just rather not be surrounded by it 24/7, thankyouverymuch!
@@lego007guym8 Play Fate Grand Order... same substance, better massage, brighter world and more waifu...
Better for your health too.
_Mentions Grimdark_
*BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!*
Imagine being a farmer in Warhammer 40K
I get to be the first reply to Justin Y. !?!?!
ABANDON REASON KNOW ONLY WAR
*pulls out dagger* HELL YEAH!
@@destructionray2917 abandon all hope! you are the second reply
Tolkein actually has an interesting defense of Grimdark in his essay about Beowulf "The Monsters and the Critics". In it, he describes the pagan Norse worldview as a functional way to cope with a miserable, doomed existence without the eternal hope/salvation offered by a Christian faith they have yet embrace. To paraphrase: "they gave the darkness victory, but no glory. By putting all of their faith in the value of doomed resistance they created a worldview that was impregnable to the tragedies of reality."
This is actually very good take. No matter how bad the world is around you, as long as you try to leave a mark and live with your head held high it doesn't matter if you fail in the end. You gave your best, even if it wasn't enough.
Makes sense Grimdark has been super popular the past 2 decades then...
And this is pretty much what the Silmarillion is about. The Dark Lord Morgoth had corrupted the world beyond repair. While he was defeated physically, he still had won.
Sauron created the Ring so he couldn't be killed, his boss Morgoth tainted the world and thus could never be utterly removed, without said world being destroyed.
Therefore I wholeheartedly disagree with Red pitting GRRM "grimdark" ASOIAF (it really isn't that grimdark) against Tolkien's "not grimdark" work. Tolkien's legendarium is pretty grim and pretty dark. Doomed to go downhill before the world's creation was even completed, because Morgoth was a spiteful bastard and wanted to rebell against Daddy.
It fits. They had literally planned out the death of their gods in exacting detail.
It ties into the Norse ideal of a hero, it wasn’t someone who could kill and beat everyone easily, there was that aspect though. Rather a hero was someone who in the face of certain defeat still fought, a person who mentally overcame the tragedy of this world to still continue onwards. It is very similar to Logotherapy or Mans Search for Meaning by Victor Frankel.
For me, grimdark vs optimism is part of the usual cultural-cycle between pop-culture vs. counter-culture. The party vs. the hangover
Unless you are dc, they forgot how to leave their dark age aparently, lol
@@DM-Oz it was too "dark" for them to see the exit and leave
@@DM-Oz the live action movies yeah but the animated stuff no
@@timmcguire653 maybe a few shows, but the massive DC animated film saga is about as grimdark as it gets.
@@Badmanpuntbaxter I don’t really much of dc was really grim dark sure maybe grim and dark but not grimdark like the dccu
Sin City is a good example of "small personal victories make all the difference" and even if our protagonist dies in the end, they tend to die satisfied. There's a strange appeal to that.
Marv fed a doggy! 😙
“There are no good choices”
False. The orcs are dumb enough that they can staple together cement and cardboard boxes, think it works, and will it into becoming a hovercraft. They are the best option and you cannot tell me otherwise.
Remember the Orks are a Bioweapon designed for a war with aganist a force that could casually destroy stars from halfway across the galaxy and rip apart time and space like it was tissue paper and just straight up treat the Laws of Physics as guidelines.
Oh, and their modern abilities are in a primitive state compared to when they are the Kork.
@@xo-1320 makes them even better
Remember, you ever see a purple Ork
the eldar will see you soon
Egyptian robot skeleton terminators that use gods as batteries tho
One part of "The Lord of the Rings" that has really stuck with me over the years is the part where Frodo & Sam come across a statue the orcs vandalized, knocking off the head and replacing it with a boulder they painted with a leering ugly face.
But Frodo points out the head of the statue lying nearby wearing a new crown of flowers.
"They can't win forever." Frodo tells Sam.
He was a catholic, after all 😛
That scene was the cover image on the version of The Two Towers I got in junior high.
Beautiful. I really need to get the Lord of the Rings books and read them. Thanks for this. Also, it just shows that what any story should do above all else is juxtaposition i.e. balance out the themes and tones.
@@AHGrayLensman Do you know wich edition? I would love to see that cover art.
The orcs were mostly peaceful. Don't let the hobbit propaganda tell you any differently.
When I was in middle school, one of my teachers described an emotion he called "happysad". I was confused by what he meant, and he used the ending of a sad movie I watched as an example. I felt like I understood; I said "Oh, you mean it's sad when the character dies, but there's also happiness in it because his death inspires other characters to work towards a better future?" He said "No, I mean that you're sad because he dies, but then happy because it wasn't real!"
I've spent my whole life since then baffled by that conversation. But now, watching this, it seems like my middle-school teacher wasn't alone. Perhaps, for some people, the fact that a piece of fiction isn't real is _consciously_ tied to their emotional response to its events.
I think one way that people cope with their problems is to be engrossed in a fictional story, and when something sad happens in the story, you can allow yourself to feel the emotions in a contained and controlled environment. It's almost like an experiment. You can have those feelings you're already feeling, but not necessarily have to think about why you feel those feelings.
I think the phrase “what’re you gonna do, be sad at me about it” is one that absolutely needs to become a common saying
Exactly. My problem with the "no hope, everything sucks" people is that their only goal in life seems to be to jerk themselves off over how big-brain they are for knowing that the world has problems. It's a deeply immature and pretentious worldview and I have no respect for it.
@@resm-oe9ji for me its more of a "if you go back far enough in the 'why's, and you dont find an answer other than 'because it is' there is no reason to being"
@@ZeRandomizor why do you need an objective reason to exist in the first place? just say "fuck it we ball" and do what you personally want or think is right
Ok, strange reference, but in third grade we read a book called Anastasia Krupnik, about a little girl who has very realistic little girl problems, like her parents are having a baby brother she didn’t want, and her grandma is a rambling old lady who she finds frustrating.
But there’s a scene where she goes to the college class her father is teaching and he encourages her to listen in and participate if she wants to. The topic of the day is a “I wandered lonely as a cloud” and one of the students just says it reminds him of the futility of life.
Her father tells her afterwards that this student says that about every poem, and that even though her grandma has very little going on in her life, she’s not a nihilistic loser like that guy, because her memories are happy and loving and it gives her life meaning.
Red’s line makes me think of that bit- you can choose to be sad about it and be hopeless, or you can choose to believe that things will be better and have been better.
"In the grim darkness of 90's comics, there is only edginess."
Accurate.
Anderrated comment
There will be no happiness across the comics, only an eternity of edge and terrible jokes to the laughter of thirsting writers.
... and pouches... so many tiny, pointless pouches."
Wild bow and Parahumans WordPress site:*Cracks open a can of monster loudly* "have you heard of our 2011 grimdark parody web serial Worm?"
OSP: makes grimdark video
40k fans: “Hippity hoppity this comments section is now PROPERTY OF THE IMPERIAL INQUISITION, REPORT ANY CRITICISM TO THE NEAREST COMMISSARIAT”
And you guys lost it after a few hours
[Commissar Cain defers such criticism to his aide, Jurgen, who knows how to filter out the actually important bits so the Commissar himself can focus on more important things (like drinks and women)]
@@uria3679
We Warhams are a sad breed of nerd, sorry you had to find out like this :P
FOR THE EMPEROR
@@theguystealingyourinternet3712
AVE IMPERATOR DOMINUS, PATER OMNES, SALVATOR ULTIMA!
The actual exception in Warhammer 40k are the Salamanders, who I can considered as the "good guys" in the Imperium of Man, they deadass care for the people and to see 1 civilian death is a failiure.
There's also the Lamenters
@@ranger5839 And the Space Wolves
@@ranger5839 the difference is the lamenters are the embodiment of grim dark kicking the ass of anyone who's good or hopeful as described in the video. Still hope they get a redemption arc and kill huran or luscious Tbh I just want anyone to permanently kill that horrible excuse of a character.
"good guys in 40k"
Guiliman:a flawed man who despite this trys to remain a good person despite his demigod nature
Jaghatai khan:a outcast who despite having a semi fractured legion,united them physically and spiritualy becoming badasses
Sanguinus:a noble man with darkness in his soul who saved his legion from dammnation by being a good person
Corvus corax:a liberator of the opressed who desired to see people prosper
Vulkan:a man among gods,a humble blacksmith who became a god of war whos fury would put angron to shame
Farsight:a hotheaded tau who found wisdom in dark places,who contemplated his kinds very nature and strove to save who he can from the growing darkness
Eldrad:though he did bad shit eldrad was a true aeldari who sought to see his people prosper and learn from there mistakes although still a eldar
Yvraine:the champion of the god of death,who sought to revive the old aeldari,kill she who thirsts so that they become better
The silent king:the necron who lead his people to dammnation and lost everything for it,to go beyond the galaxy and return hellbent to kill the great devourer despite everything hes doing
Pre heresy magnus:a man who ruled justly and even though he was on the road to dammnation,attempted to persuade lorgar from his dark path,leading to where he was
Pre heresy horus:a kind man who tried to allways be diplomatic,and even on the edge of dammnation denied he was good for warmaster and even after erebus turned he and his brothers to dammnation,the emporor would give mercy to horus by erasing him completely
Dante: despite craving the finaly release, still carries the nobility of the angel leading the chapter
Leman russ:a hypocrite and horrible man,when prospero,its people and the thousand sons burned,it would set him on a path of redemption,only for the sins of the father,to follow the sons
I raise you Farsight Enclaves
15:48 I think the people on Twitter meant that it is good to see the spirit of humanity carrying on even in an utterly hopeless situation where both the characters and the audience know that they're going to lose even before they try, but they still do the right thing anyway.
Yeah it kind of misses the point. Persistence in the face of hopelessness isn't hopeless if they actually succeed. They are saying persisting in the face of actual hopelessness, not shonen/ movie hero hopelessness which usually means kind of difficult or really difficult
Those other shows don't "do it better" because people aren't talking about watching people succeed and being inspired by it. They're talking about watching people fail and try none the less
"In any other year, I'd have called that unrealistic." red hits that snark HARD sometimes.
Good lord what is it with internet writers and snark *looks towards jp beauan*
it's just a little too overly sarcastic
Ohhhh yes. I loved that
Me: "true....*sighs* true...."
Not really if mankind can survive a nuclear missle crisis, countless more devestating plauges and natural disasters than mankind can survive this plauge.
Why do grimdark stories look so good?
Cause they have 40k graphics.
The inquisition isn't normally concerned with mere jokes. But for this, they might make an exception.
🥁
guess you can say that have...
CUTTING *EDGE* GRAPHICS
(ba-dum-tss)
@@isectoid9454 I'm pretty sure the Inquisition absolutely will kill you for making a joke about the Emperor... or the Space Marines... or a flavor of pizza the Inquisitor happens to like...
Huehuehue. Made my night!
See, I’ve been getting invested in some different grimdark stories recently, and I’ve finally understood that “struggle in the face of hopelessness” thing. Sure, sometimes the author is saying that hope is dumb and you should feel bad, which just sucks. But in the best cases, the author is making the case that it is alright right to be kind, be selfless, and help others, even where you receive no reward.
Weirdly enough, Doctor Who of all places is what got this to click for me, specifically “the Doctor Falls” and its “without witness, without reward” speech.
That's the thing with (good) Grimdark most people don't get. The whole point is hope and to struggle. Fight even if you think you can't win, have hope even if there is no reason to. THOSE are the points of grimdark. To look at seemingly hopeless situations and deciding to continue on, if for nothing but yourself. Which is why the grimdark stories where they specifically say having hope is dumb ticks me off, they missed the whole point.
@@Logamer-tn6db hope for nothing other than yourself is nothing but pure narcissism.
@@thenightwatchman1598 In what world does that make sense? Pure narcissism would be believing that nothing and no one can kill you on the battlefield. Having hope in that you might survive doesn't even compare.
@@Logamer-tn6db oh buddy. masochists can be a hella narcassitic. why do you think the south park mel gibson joke about him enjoying being tortured all the time is so funny?
I think the reason people call grimdark "more realistic" even though that's not really true, is because often media will avoid prolonged and overt depictions of human suffering, so stories that lean into that can shed perspective on a real aspect of the human experience that is often neglected in media. There is also a macabre beauty to be found in the faint wisps of hope in perilous scenarios, even if they are ultimately quashed, as they often have been in reality. I'm not a fan of the overly edgy (and cringey) aspects of some grimdark narratives, but I can appreciate the unique and complex stories that can only be told through the lens of suffering and misery. Because while it's true that the world can become a better place through the effort of good people, it too can become a worse place through the effort of not so good people, and I think exploring that is valuable.
these people in the comments need to reject the direction brained false paradigms of "X vs Y" if they are to truly find solutions in a fundamentally three dimensional world. sadly not many people are taught basic critical reasoning early on intead opting for the kneejerk "us or them" black and white Hegelian dialectic.the idea that humans are fundamentally biologically flawed is a patently false and is frankly a cruel social Darwinist concept. this situation were in is LEARNED and that gives me all the more reason to think we can unlearn the lies we are taught by those that want us to fight over petty minutiae.
Quick correction: Tolkein fought in WWI, not WWII.
Yeah but whenever you say World War you just wanna say 2. It's like the Terminator, everyone knows there's a first but you just thing of Jusgement Day.
@@kylesodyssey8591 *kikoha to the face*
Love dbza btw, and yeah that quote is pretty fitting
@@kylesodyssey8591 I wanna say that's a dbza reference but I'm not entirely sure
@@knightofsteel2783 it's dbza kai abridged 2.9
@@kappagon thank you
“There're awful, horrible things in this world, I know that now. But there're a lot of things worth protecting too.” - Madoka Kaname
Madoka Magica is actually a really good example of how grimdark can have a hero, and ultimately a happy ending, even if not everything is fixed (just talking about the series, not rebellion) and is a perfect example of why I read grimdark stuff, because where the world is dark, the small glimmers of hope and specks of happiness shine all the brighter, and in that we learn to appreciate stuff like that all the more.
@@fluxuous6907 this!
@@fluxuous6907 it scared me for life and if it has a happyish ending, thats highly subjective. Akemi hasone goal and even in the happyend she fails whilerememberingall the trauma she went through trying to get it right . . .
Realy love the show though
@@fluxuous6907 Well I think by definition grimdark can not have a hero madoka is grim and dark but it is not grimdark. Madoka is one of my favorite animes ever and so is banana fish if ya know that. I love if heroes are morally ambiguous but if the main protagonist is truly a completely unlikeable character and there's no satisfying ending I don't usually like it. For example,I love musicals and I love the first act of Chicago so much but the ending feels so unsatisfying to me. I love gritty and dark stories but I love having heroes and a satisfying ending. There's a difference between the dark and gritty and grimdark.
This video actually reminded me a lot of Explanation Point's video on Magical Girl Site, and why it and other "Madoka clones" tend to fall flat. Because they forget that at its core, underneath the sadness and brutality, Madoka Magica is about hope.
I can tell you that your assertion that people who deal with real darkness don't do grimdark is far from universal. I worked grim jobs (first career was in lockdown mental health facilities), and many of us read and still read grimdark. That catharsis by proxy can lead to real-life catharsis as well. I dealt with helping people who were considered hopeless cases, my own PTSD, personal tragedy, etc, in part because grimdark gives a safe, emotionally distanced milieu in which to start processing some of the hopelessness, to get beyond the abject hopelessness of the job and find real hope again. In the end, those jobs are not truly hopeless (or no one would bother), but they definitely feel that way when you are in the mire. It's important to process out that hopelessness before you can find hope again. If that means long sessions of Vampire: the Masquerade, or reading Joe Abercrombie, or watching M*A*S*H ("laugh to keep from crying"), then do it.
Same for me man. I find dark stories to be comforting because it gives me characters in situations that I can personally relate to because I've lived through similar times and mental states.
in terms of red's analogy, a cold shower is still better than an ice bath and can help people adjust to warmer temperatures
3:18 fun fact rumor has it that the Tau were originally supposed to be legitimately good but after fan backlash they were retconned to just look that way due to their mind control pheromones
Any collective that has "For the Greater Good" as their motto automatically gives me the heebie-jeebies and sounds every alert in my brain.
The only "good" guys are the Orks. Or, at least, the least shitty ones are the Orks.
In my (personal) Evil/Douchey/STAY AWAY metric the rankings go, from least to most:
Orks.
Tyranids.
Chaos Daemons.
Necrons.
Chaos Space Marines.
Eldar.
Harlequins.
Imperium.
Dark Eldar.
Tau.
And that is because Orks are already at the pinnacle of all sentient life, the Tyranids are simply obeying their instincts and Chaos Daemons are just being true to their nature.
The Necron got shafted by the C'tan, but they were still assholes. The Traitor Legions are Traitors, enough said about that.
I'd say the Eldar deserve to become extinct, the Harlequins are CLOWNS and the Dark Eldar are all edges.
I usually oscillate with my ranking of the Imperium because I can see what The Emperor wanted and can sort of agree...but the Imperium of the 41st Millenium is a shitshow.
The Tau remain at my top DO NOT LIKE/TRUST/ETC and have done so for decades.
...also, what kind of clown can't face you in melee?
in lore, tau aren't actually being mind controlled , the etheral cast has the same sort of psychic charistma of the Primarchs so they essentially make people listen to them , the reason people dislike the tau is because of their tendancy to actually do some form of good in the 40k universe , but the caste system , the etherals and their tendancy to just kill the people that don't follow the tau'va , im not suprised not a lot of people dislike them
also because we're prejudiced and we don't like aliens
@@Chaotic42Kami The Tau are more evil than fucking Chaos and the Dark Eldar? What?
@@firstnamelastname7244 the list is not about evil is about trust
@@Chaotic42Kami the type that’ll blow your head off ten times over in range
“Dying after successfully doing their one thing is the only satisfying conclusion” -Red, on every single character from Dark Souls
Grimdark settings
Oh my god the protagonist dies.
Anyway
_We'll be swingin' when we're winnin'. We'll be swingin'._
_I get murdered, but I get up again! You're not ever gonna keep me down!_ (repeat ×4)
_Fighting the night away; fighting the night away._
_He drinks an Estus flask, he eats a mossy clump,_
_He eats humanity, he drinks an Estus flask._
_He swings swords that remind him of the good times,_
_He swings swords that remind him of the better times._
_Oh, Patchy Boy, Patchy Boy, Patchy Boy..._
[Refrain]
Thou she has a misconseption that all Grimdark protagonists always die they don't take Wilard from Apocalypse Now he manages to complete his mission and leave Vietnam the problem is Vietnam never left him.
@@forickgrimaldus8301 Yup. Grimdark isn't about death of protagonists, what is common occurrence even in lighter series. General idea is that world is really crappy place and people usually fight only for survival instead any epic adventures. Usually without real hope for the future. Still contrary to popular believe people can be happy locally, even if for short time. Good example of this theme is Warhammer, bad edgy 90's BS.
@@TheRezro yes absolutely the 40k universe is known for dark humor and over the top ironic humor. This also help spark the gem that is "if the emperor has a text to speech device".
"There is no winning."
- Red, admitting this basically became property of the Warhammer Fandom.
The only one who wins is GW with your wallet
The tau weren't always mind-controlling genocidal pricks. They used to be the underdog good guys. But nope, in the war-torn future of the 41st century, there can only be grimdark.
And the Homestucks crawling from the abyss.
Yes
@Hans Hanzo it's hard to laugh witha bolter round in your skull
Red: I like heroes and happy endings
Also Red: some of the first stories I covered were Shakespearean tragedies.
context: for school
I really like what you said about the way these "edgy" stories make optimism seem naive and uncool. That small idea was planted into my head as a kid so many times that by the time I became an adult I was convinced that if I saw a positive in something, that it was really negative. Destroyed a lot of relationships and a lot of myself in the process.
These ideas may seem cool and interesting, but there is a line in grimdark that should not be crossed. That's what I really liked about the punisher netflix series. Even though as the watcher we are cheering for the main character to win, we know that he is not doing the right thing. We see every chance he has to do the right thing and watch him make the wrong, but ultimately an understandable decision every time. Makes the end of the series where the punisher doesn't settle down and retire, but rather goes on more rampages feel fitting. Given every opportunity to do the right thing he does the wrong thing
That's why I like Everything Everywhere All At Once, the dumb hot optimistic husband Ray gives a speech about how being optimistic and kind-hearted is the way he fights.
optimism is naïve and stupid
@@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong get help homie
@@nolanpeters5462 no help is coming
I think the edgy backlash came in an overlap between the 70s & 80s as the baby boomers were being sucked into one "positive" cult after another that always turned out to be a scam. (Look at how sickly sweet & naive so many shows (not just kids' programming), movies & other cultural experiences were back in the 60s-80s, especially the 80s.)
So a lot of us gen Xers grew up very cynical, especially given how grimdark most baby boomers' parenting style really was - that we're STILL not culturally allowed to talk about & slander those narcissists' names until after they're dead...
Grimdark: gets mentioned
Warhammer 40k fans: WE CLAIM THIS VIDEO IN THE EMPEROR'S NAME
Homestuck: GO GRIMDARK REEEE
WH40K TTS Vulcan lives
FIRST AND ONLY, STRAIGHT SILVERRRR!
HERETICS MUST BE PURGED!!!!
@@designateddm8021 STOMP STOMP
OSP: Puts grimdark in their title
Every Warhammer fan in the world: *hiss of a can opening* oh you want to hear about grimdark?
This is accurate.
Si this tent to happend
Grimdark couldn't even be discussed without bringing up Warhammer!
Warhammer is so grim dark that at times it loops back to becoming a comedy
A race of sentient mushrooms are fighting against a BDSM slavery, pirate cult? Hilarious!
A dead corpse needing a thousand the sacrifice of thousands of latent pyschics? What a riot!
Space Vikings and Space Mongols fighting against enemies that orgasm when they hear a specific sound? The material writes itself!
She says there are no heroes here, but she forgot about someone
Ciaphus Cain, Hero Of The Imperum!
That depends on your definition of “winning”. To the Orks this is the best possible time to be alive.
Nothing but war and chaos? What a time to be an Ork! It’s paradise.
Back on this video a year on, and one section gave me some thoughts.
The standing up in the face of hopelessness, even when it fails, I think does have an important element. Because in the real world, the MAJORITY of pushes for the world to get better fail the first dozen times its tried.
I think that kind of grimdark story embraces an element of the integrity of doing the right thing even when it fails. Even when you suffer for it.
There's been recent talk online about some people falling into "protagonist syndrome", and I think these kinds of stories are (one of many) pushes against that. If you're too steeped in the "the heroes always triumph" narrative to the point of internalizing it, the early set backs or failures can be crushing.
When people think that pessimism automatically=smart, I can always point to Cinemasins...
-ding!- "And here we have a joke I didn't get, so clearly it's a plot hole"
Did you even pay attention this year?
@@slithra227 “They over explain the plot, DING.” “They under explain the plot. I’m supposed to remember things from 9 minutes ago? DING.”
“How did nobody see him in that tunnel?”
*Sequel reveals he was in fact seen*
“How did somebody see him in that dark tunnel?”
They sinned emperor's new groove. Theyre braindead
The core question of Grimdark: Everything sucks. Which flavour of suck are you okay with?
I'll have the monochrome rainbow flavor please
Exactly, it’s which lesser evil are you willing to stomach, or in some cases greater evil if you are rooting for like Chaos, the Tyranids, necrons....
Thank you for your answer. We will now give you every other kind of suck, but that specific kind of suck. Why? Because Grimdark, even the suck sucks.
I mean... out of everything in 40K, I would go with the imperium of man because that’s the one we’re I get to live and not get murdered by Aliens and demons XD
@@CrimsonBlasphemy Jokes on you that's what I wanted all along
Thanks for the Terry Pratchett quote. I hope more Americans become familiar with his Discworld series. I feel like only British and Canadians actually know of the guy. Also, thanks for confirming that Batman isn't Grimdark
I’m ‘murican And love PTerry Pratchett, his books are great and thought provoking
Nah, as someone from the American South, I love Pratchett. One of my all time favorite characters of anything is Rincewind! Love that cowardly, selfish, yet courageous, selfless wizard.
berserk is the epitome of grimdark. there’s no winning, no hope, no end to the suffering. But he keeps fighting, pushing, struggling against the tide. no matter how many times the world beats him down guts gets back up because the only way to find happiness is to look through the cracks of despair. sure maybe it won’t get better but you won’t know unless you live to see tomorrow. keep fighting
If it's going to kill you, might as well make it be annoyed by you. Talk shit until your voice no longer works, even if your limbs are shattered, keep swinging, not like they'll get worse. If you can do anything to make your enemy suffer in their win, do it. Because fuck em.
Re: 40k
There’s a tank shaped like a pipe organ. The moral debate between cynicism and idealism is not what draws people to this game.
Who gets the pipe organ? I want to be on that side
@@witherblaze The Sisters of Battle are for you then.
@@johnbones3455 thank you. I will now frantically find funny songs to be played while the tank kills all
So basically, it's a terrible universe to live in, but a very fun one to visit.
@@legoworld246 That’s about the size of it, yeah.
When Red mentioned the Eldar partying so hard they created a Chaos God, my mind instantly went "I believe the term you are searching for is, Murder-fucking"
Chaos god murder-fucked into existence
Indeed, that IS the technical term.
yep
" So you murder-fucked the most horrific of the chaos gods into reality, gave it total ownership of your souls and now you cling to existence as your essence is being constantly siphoned into a void of eternal torture of your own making... and we are the savage primatives?"
"Correct you filthy mon-keigh"
@@barrylyndon5552 I mean do keep in mind they spent the last 60 million years ruling the galaxy after the Necrons went into statis and their Godlike Toad creators are likely all dead.
This is likely something they just can't grasp.
One good thing I can say about Grimdark is that, when used effectively, can outline how precious and necessary the small flecks of light in the world are, and how a hero born of that dark world, using that darkness from within, can create the light the world needs. In a sense, a good Grimdark story can show how important the good of the world, the LIght within the Dark Spuls of Humanity, is something we should cherish and try to protect; maybe even expand.
One character I like, The Shadow, is exactly that. The Shadow (aka Batman with extra murder, mystery, investigation ans cool factor) is a character that's somewhat twisted and capable of manipulating the villains into his whims, even taking out criminals through oddly hilarious and ironic means. Like say, when he takes out a Poisoner in Red Menace with his own poison, or how he uses a Red Room used to hypnotize people through Color Shock to take out the hypnotist using it to create a Cult.
Another involves two of my favorite manga protags: Guts from Berserk and Thorfinn from Vinland Saga. Both characters are inherently different: one's a broken man and swordsmaster that has known nothing but the struggle and the evils that enact it, and the other's a wounded man that's surrendered his loved ones and family for a poorly advised act of revenge. However, at one point these characters basically have a realization: The worlds we live in sucks ass, so let's fix it. With Guts, it's killing the Godhand and their Apostles, and Thorfinn with the eponymous Vinland. These two KNOW their worlds are dark, they are both INTIMATELY AWARE their worlds are dark, and yet they try to either destroy or overcome the darkness of their respective homes in ways they know how to; mainly by understanding the darkness within in an attempt to make that evil within a force for a positive outcome. And bear in mind: Vinland Saga and Berserk are dark stories. Vinland Saga features raids and war in 1000's Europe and our lead literally seeing his father die before his eyes, and I'm pretty sure everyone knows how dark Berserk's world is.
This is also why my favorite superhero story is Invincible. Sure, Robert Kirkman's fascinated with making Mark pop like a balloon full of chili, but ut dies highlight something. The world in Invincible is full of asshole heroes that do what they want, normal people getting caught up and killed in superhuman wills, a while race of violent Demigod aliens that conquer and kill; Hell, Mark gets raped at one point. And yet, you know what Mark and his allies do? They see that darkness and evil, AND THEY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! It's not always successful or well-advised, BUT AT LEAST THEY TRY *SOMETHING* To help people; to make a change in the world that can help people. And yes, I know that Imvincible isn't Grimdark, but a lot of times are fairly grim, like what Robot gets up to after getting a new body, or that scene that was memed to death and back.
Exactly this. Ironically, I tend to find grimdark stories to be much more positive and uplifting than traditional campy fantasy because it places a much stronger emphasis on just how important the little fleeting moments of hope, peace and happiness in our lives really are.
Those are exceptions in the rule... most times those shit are better off gone.
i think what warhammer taps into isn't happiness or joy, but the motivation of a lost cause, a last stand. i don't know about everybody, but to some people that hopefull feeling of "we're not lost so long as people are still fighting" is what makes warhammer feel so awesome.
The Orks might not be the good guy, but they sure are the fungi
Both as a pun and literally, they are just the happiest faction.
@@theimperiumofman102 The Emperor is currently talking to his caretaker through Text-To-Speech
I don't play 40k, and yet, I still wanna paint my car red to go fasta
@@theimperiumofman102 They also reproduce by spores, like fungus.
Orkz: if we're slapping we're clapping
Re: 40k...That's why I like the Orks, they're the only faction that's having FUN.
Only when they have enough dakka.
The question is... How much dakka is enough dakka?
@@sarahgraves6759 Not enough
@@sarahgraves6759 how dare you imply there is EVER an upper limit on how much dakka is good
@@sarahgraves6759 There is never enough Dakka
This is Bug erasure
In one of Brandon Sanderson's podcasts he mentioned that he consider grimdark a story where morally good choices consistently leads to bad outcome and the tragic beauty of a good grimdark story is when good deeds are done for all risk and no reward simply because they are the right thing to do. And I think that sums up what I like about grimdark, it's not misery porn, it's an encapsulation of the idea that the war against evil cannot be won but must always be fought.
That's why the survey-question in the video was... well lets say Red would have liked a speciffic answer and the question showed that. If the question basically is 'I don't get this schlock' answers are basically "No I like being happy in life and love good things!" or "Yes I love misery porn!" then yeah no surprise 80% say no you already answered for them 😅
you literally just described misery porn.
15:56 exactly why it's inspiring to watch these characters keep going anyways. They are living their worst and giving their best.
emotionally driven argument.... discadred...
@@thenightwatchman1598 Uh...what? What does this have to do with what this person said?
"Grimdark?" **Drags cigar** "I haven't heard that word since my days in the My Little Pony fandom. I can't look at a cupcake the same way again."
Watch the movie Trolls, and then look at a cupcake
@@kevinchong5424 well that the true grim dark
That was ten years ago. Where have you been?
Or a rainbow... *shudder*
*Andrew W. K.'s "Better Get Ready To Die" grows louder*
So with the struggle against hopeless odds thing theres one bit you missed. You said if people want to watch persistance in the face of hopelessness BE REWARDED. In Grimdark not only the character, but the observer both know the situation is hopeless, which makes the fact that they stand that much more powerful (to me anyway). To quote one of the best lines in all 40k fiction:
"I have seen the power of Chaos Torgaddon, you cannot fight it"
"Yet here I stand"
Yeah, the notion of still flipping the bird at whoever or whatever is in the process of killing you can be satisfying. Hope is the ultimate motivator, but folks forget that spite is another form of hope.
Let me just drop my obligatory quote of Jaghatai Khan being faced with a vision of the grim future
"‘I do not doubt your visions,’ the Khan said, quietly. ‘But what do they change? Shall we stare up at the shadows and let our blades fall from our hands?'
'Know this, son of Magnus. There is more under the arch of heaven than victory and defeat. We may fall back, but not forever. We may feint and we may weave, but not forever. We may yet be doomed to lose all we cherish, but we shall do so in the knowledge that we could have turned away, and did not.’
‘We remained true,’ the Khan said. ‘They can never have this, not if they burn all we ever built and scorn us through the dancing flames. You hear me? We remained true.’"
Edit: Quote is from Chris Wraight's Path of Heaven, for anyone interested. I highly recommend reading Scars beforehand, though.
"There is no shame in turning back."
"No point, either."
@@Syurtpiutha Darksiders 2?
Also why Rylanor is one of my favourite characters. He was never going to win, but he could hurt Fulgrim's pride.
Brandon Sanderson has defined grimdark like the genre where if you do a morally good choise, the outcome is negative and the fact that some character do it anyway shows how much is important for them doing the right decision at a high cost, so I think that can be heros in grimdark and can be heroic but their heroism cost to them instead of being acclaimed for it
“Hope is what makes us strong! It is why we are here! It is what we fight with, when all else is lost...”
-Pandora, God of War
Came to mind when she started talking about Hope at the end.
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
Actual quote from a character in the 40K universe.
It is objectively correct. If you always expect the worst instead hoping for better you will either be right or be pleasantly surprised.
"Hope is a beacon. Be a torch, not a shadow."
Also an actual quote from a character in the 40k universe. Specifically, Asurmen of the Eldar.
@@Zakon673 If it is from an Eldar it is probably a manipulative lie. I wouldn't trust it.
@@lurkingllama8364 It's an eldar talking to another eldar who is in the midst of despair. Also he's a Phoenix Lord, one of the great heroes of their people. Asurmen in general is a pretty nice dude tbh, he even laments in an internal monologue about how the eldar's failure helped lead to the downfall of the Imperium, and pines for the days when the eldar and humans shared the universe in relative peace.
@@Zakon673 So lied. Go it! XD
someone: why are your comics so sad? this is completely ignoring canon
guy about to invent grimdark: oh you haven't heard?
This is GRIMMDARK!
I know something interesting is that the person who made Watchmen was absolutely horrified by the trend he started so he decided to try and make a much more hopeful comic and it was actually a brief nice story the only problem was the grimdark was in full swing so it was pretty much ignored.
“Oh yeah it’s this new thing where you just kill EVERYONE”
I can rant all day about DC Comics loads of times when they went grim dark.
Imma just put "Batman Who Laughs" along with Metal/Death Metal. Scott Snyder used to be good, I swear!
Moral of the story: the world should be more Red
"Ah, beans, there's always something." Perfect description of the Tau.
I think a great video would be to have someone who loves Grim-Dark discuss its merits with you. The wine connoisseur has the experience and words to convey the pallet meaningfully to those who aren't as familiar, and I think the same can be said for media. Your ability to reference parallel media and draw the relations to other elements of storytelling could prove an enlightening experience for all.
"So much death. What can man do against such reckless hate?" "Ride out with me. Ride out and meet them." - J.R.R Tolkien
Guess that's how the last charge at Helms Deep was made
Good example of a Grimdark Moment used well.
@@mojolotz I wouldn't call this a grimdark moment at all, actually. Firstly, this moment does have clearly defined heroes firmly on the side of good, so already two of the grimdark qualities are missing: lack of heroes and lack of morality. Secondly, I wouldn't even call the situation devoid of hope. The entirety of Lord of the Rings is driven forward by the hope of a better world (which is definitely achievable), just like in real life. "Ride out with me" wouldn't be an act of desperation in the face of a dark and uncaring world; it would be an act of courage and fellowship, one of goodness and, yes, hope that it can make some difference. Lotr is very powerful and true to life like that.
I freaking love this line.
“If this is to be their end, I would have them make such an end as to be worthy of remembrance.”
“In any other year I’d call the unrealistic”
Can we get a hard ‘oof’ for the truth in that statement? 😭
FULLY AGREE
Fs in chat
:omegaoof:
_"Don't save your neighbor from zombies... they're communists!"_
Yeah that was brilliant
Y'know, I feel like GRRM and Song of Ice and Fire are some of the most misunderstood of our time. People see the sex and the deaths and betrayal and go for the easy read of it being cynical and grim, but like your video mentions, it really isn't that simple at all.
I once read a blogger describe George as the most downtrodden and bitter of idealistic romantics with his writing. Sure, the outcomes may be grim for our heroes, the world may be cold and uncaring to their heroics and good decisions, but their good and noble nature is at no point ridiculed or shown to be wrong. In fact, the series is absolutely enamored with showing characters choosing to do the right thing even without any witness or reward reasonably expected. And the story, beautifully, almost never chooses to reward such noble behavior at all, but still consistently vouches for them in a moral sense, with the villains always shown to be rotten and pathetic individuals, their lives a putrid series of self-serving and delusion.
The books do not at all show that good deeds must be done for reward or for improving the world in any way. In fact, they often don't improve or change anything at all. But, even when shown this, they still make the case that these good choices must be done simply for their own sake. For the fact that these are the correct and moral things to do, and even in the face of utter oblivion and despair, we MUST always choose to do them regardless of the consequences to ourselves, simply because they are the right thing to do. A bitter romantic george might be, but still unapologetically a romantic in every sense of the word.
I blame the show. David and Dan's edgelord fratboy brains missed the point of the series so bad that now people who've only seen George's writing in the few episodes he wrote for the show say his book series is too cynical
"Sure, the outcomes may be grim for our heroes, the world may be cold and uncaring to their heroics and good decisions, but their good and noble nature is at no point ridiculed or shown to be wrong." That's just straight forwardly wrong. All of the 'moral' characters are openly mocked both in story and irl by the fanbase. Jamie even laughs at Robb Stark or 'winning every battle and losing the war.' Martin isn't some misunderstood romantic. He's a misanthrope through and through.
I think the struggle against hopelessness is unique to grimdark because other genres don't have genuine hopelessness, but rather struggle against overwhelming odds. It's a you can't win, but struggle all the same, vs you probably won't win, but victory is a non 0 chance
Red: In 40k, there are no winners
Orkz: laughs in eternal war, something that they thrive on.
"Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!"
*imagines the galaxy full of orks* Well shit.
THATS CUS ORKS DA BEST AROND
Chaos is the main winner. They can't lose and they are the most powerful faction even when divided
Saturnine has big implications for Chaos
Christian Dauz idk what effect Orks have on Chaos though. The thing about Chaos is that it needs things to feed it. If it comes down to Orks, who can’t really be corrupted by Chaos, Tyranids, who Chaos can’t comprehend, and Chaos; my bet is on the Tyranids personally. The thing about Orks, as so eloquently explained above, is that they don’t lose. Sometimes they don’t win, but that doesn’t count.
Recently I've discovered what a series of authors have called "noblebright", a mirror to grimdark. They describe it as a counter to grimdark in the way that, where grimdark has a world in a slow, painful decline, noblebright takes place in a world emerging from darkness. Where grimdark makes clear that all efforts to better the world merely slow down the inevitable, noblebright tells you that every bit of effort and care, no matter how small, matters. Grimdark shows life as disposable and meaningless, noblebright emphasizes that even in the face of mass tragedy, any life you can save is precious. In grimdark, the innocent exist to be victims of the strong, and in noblebright, the innocent deserve to be protected by the strong. And noblebright still maintains that heroes are naive fools... but they can still make a difference.
today I learned that the type of stories I've been writing are noblebright and that it's a direct response to my distaste of grimdark growing up. whoah, thank you for the introspection
@@amzilla BRO SAME
Lord of the Rings.
*It has a name*
People have come out with more "alignments":
*Noble-Grim* refers to the characters. Can they change anything? Are they "good" people?
*Bright-Dark* refers to the setting: Is it nice or it's all destroyed?
But both are extremely vague measures: Warhammer 40k, Paranoia and NieR: Automata are all Grimdark (the world is destroyed and the characters can't change anything), but apart from that, they have next to nothing in common...
Using some sci-fi examples:
*Noble Bright:* Star Trek...
*Noble Neutral:* Mass Effect...
*Noble Dark:* Halo Reach...
*Neutral Bright:* Star Wars...
*True Neutral:* Cosmos by Carl Sagan...
*Neutral Dark:* Deus Ex...
*Grim Bright:* Mirror's edge...
*Grim Neutral:* Fallout new Vegas...
*Grim Dark:* I have no mouth and I must scream...
"But optimism and pessimism, when expanded into universalized concepts, produce two very different world views; the optimistic world view believes that things can go well, that the world can be better. The pessimistic world view believes that they can't and won't. And in this case, the optimists have it. The world can improve, and has several times."
Thank you. THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS! I am sick of people acting like optimism is stupid, naive, and for baby's when it's not! Yes, blindly trusting people and ignoring the bad in the world is not a good mindset. But that isn't what optimism is. Optimism is hope. It's knowing that the world isn't sunshine and rainbows but still seeing that the dark wet rain helps the flowers grow. It's appreciating the simple pleasures of what life has to offer. It's knowing that even if there are bad people who want to hurt you there are just as many people who truly care and love you. It's knowing that things can improve and get better even if it seems like all hope is lost. Optimism isn't stupid, it's one of the most powerful things anyone can have; hope.
because it is
@@whiteeye3453 no it's not, did you even bother reading *the fucking comment*
Thank you for putting this to words and putting those words into a video. I feel like Marvel has moved away from grimdark to an extent but DC has really suffered from this doom and gloom. It feels like they tried to copy Marvel's realism, realized that Superman's godlike abilities made that difficult, and then over-corrected into constant suffering and sadness.
I feel like that's more of a movie thing than the brands overall. I mean, in 2015, the entire multiverse was dying and the Punisher just ignored it. Instead of helping or trying to stop it like almost everybody else was (Magneto and Thanos were both trying to save the universe), Punisher, fully aware of what was happening, just went to go kill some terrorists in a story that feels like it was written by an edgy 14-year-old.
Red: in warhammer 40k, their are no winners.
*laughs in imperial Kriegsman who just got a shovel*
This one gets me.
*Laughs in Sly Marbo*
Laughs in 36 shield drones, 480 shots and 30 inch range
Just to clarify its a Tau gunline
*laughs in Ork*
*LAUGHS IN TYRINID*
"Isn't this kitten cute? You should get attached to this kitten! Oh no, it's dead! You should feel bad."
I know that reference.
Yes that is the worst use of that trope really
Magic? It comes from dead orphans
Sci fi technology? It comes from ground up widows
Petrolium? It comes from ancient dead animals
Do you have a moment to talk about the greater good? Our kittens stay alive because their robots.
TWA reference
I think Bricky summed it up the appeal of 40k and some other Grimdark media perfectly in his video explaining the 40k factions: "Everything in Warhammer is evil, but being evil is kinda fun...Whoever you pick you are going to be the bad guy, but that's the fun of it. Because being the bad guy is badass, villains are cool"
I think the key to understanding the reason people like grimdark comes down to a simple fact; people consume media for different and varied reasons. Even outside of cartharsis, sometimes people aren't looking for "positive" feelings from the media they consume. Some people recieve pleasure from a sense of hopeless that some media gives them. It's like masochism. I like to be thrust into the depths of despair every once in a while (I mean very rarely because I can do that all on my own without the help of outside media, but still). Besides masochism, grimdark can also appeal to some of the darker tendencies of people, y'know, sadism. Watching it all burn as the last dying hopes of a character crumble beneath the unrelenting force of the world can be fun sometimes. I think you and I are the same in that we generally prefer more uplifting content, and don't take joy in destruction, but some people do. Also, I think moralizing the reasons people enjoy media is silly. I'm not saying you do that, just I can see people I know responding to what I just wrote with "that's fucked up." I mean they're right, but like, so what? People enjoy media for different reasons.
Well if your settings only has sadism and misery to offer then it's not grimdark it's grinderp to put it simple the traditional heroic settings are about a glorious flame casting down the darkness, and the grimdark settings are about a weak flame getting overwhelmed by darkness and yet refusing to die no matter what, it's the indomable human spirit against a cold, indifferent and ruthless universe.
@@sebastiandelvillarmontoya1447 Isn't that just Heroic Dark Fantasy? I reckon that what you call grimderp is actually grimdark.
@@goransekulic3671 nope grimderp it's grimdark but to the extreme as I said just misery and suffer without any sort of counterbalance or justification.
Now heroic dark fantasy it's more the theme of an history while grimdark it's a setting, you can have a fictional universe with a grimdark setting and make a comedy out of that universe.
@@sebastiandelvillarmontoya1447 Well, isn't reality grimdark then? Death, entropy etc?
@@goransekulic3671Reality is reality, even if we want to categorize it, we would end up with a mixture of everything.
"Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon."
Sir Terry Pratchett on how Doomguy corrects the course of any setting that's veered way too far into grimdark territory.
Doomguy: *Enters 40K universe. *
Chaos: "Why do I hear boss music?"
And there’s the Doomslayer.
@@sayerglasgow115 Unfortunately, the way Khorne works means Doomguy would get trapped in an endless cycle of infinite bloodshed, probably powering a decent-sized warpstorm at that.
@@nnelg8139 I dunno, I think Doomguy might be angrier than Khorne is.
@@nnelg8139 if we're talking the dooms layer then I'm pretty sure he's powered by some angel type dude to be incorruptible and I'm pretty sure he can do more damage to khorne then he'll give back with his pure rage. Regular doom guy, well I don't think he'd accept the mark of khorne but I doubt he'd do enough to change anything
Two quotes by a couple of my favorite authors come to mind:
“Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.” -G.K. Chesterton
“Since it is so likely that (children) will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage. Otherwise you are making their destiny not brighter but darker.” -C.S. Lewis
Hey, I thought of that Lewis quote too. Great minds think alike.
The first one sends chills down my back, holy shit that is such a good quote
Yes!
But grimdark is not for children and it would be strange if a parent show sin city to their child.
Also the appeal like most have already explained is to dare instead of to win.
Favorite thing about 40k is the Death Korps of Krieg. Their backstory is like “Civil war turns planet into a barren waste but the loyalists manage to take it back”
And they entire strategy is the ww1 style of strategy of trenches and “Throw enough men at the enemy and they’ll break”
And what's even better - they DESIRE to be thrown there so bad that this is basically just became their purpose in life
@@NicriseTheDistortedbut they're not stupid, they will happily die if they KNOW that they'll take at least one more enemy with them
@@Your_Average_Warlord_Titan true
“Hope is the last thing a soldier feels before he dies.”
That being said, when viewed through the lens of Absurdism, most Grimdark works supply the audience with the necessary moments for the protagonist to carry on.
“Optimists are foolish. Pessimists are just giant bores. The best way to act is as a Hopeful Realist”
-Ariano Suassuna
It's all about a good balance of hope and dissapointment.
And then you get both extremes of the matter argue that they're being the realists. If you decide that the middle ground is the best, then the extremes will believe themselves to be the middle ground because people will think that their opinion is good.
“Are you calling me a lair?!”
“No I’m calling you an optimist, same thing.”
-ATLA
Suassuna is the best!
Can’t believe no one’s made this correction yet, but Tolkien fought in the First World War, not the Second.
That’s even WORSE!
WWII, at least in hindsight, can have a narrative of good vs evil (the entire world trying to put down the Nazis) but WWI was just a squabble between EVERY major political power on the planet over colony disputes and what territories, and dragged all their alliances into it! The DUMBEST reason to lose nearly 1-3% of the world’s population.
Yup, fought at the Somme, and lost, if I recall correctly, all but one of his military friends there
Yes he fought in ww1. Perhaps they made a mistake its oke. As Phastinemoon said. But yea... he wrote the book thinking about ww1 not ww2.
Edit= Boke = Book
@@phastinemoon the dumbest cause of the deaths of 1-3% of the world's population _so far_
@@phastinemoon And the japanese. Don't forget they allied with the Nazis. But because they gave us anime tiddies, Nintendo, Sony and games. People tended to conveniently forget that.
Thanks for this, and good for you for boldly going in and jumping up and down on one of fandom's favorite genres of the moment. I'm a 60-year-old writer working on a book that is resolutely NOT grimdark. I've seen enough grim darkness in my lifetime and can always see more of it turning on the news.
So I just added a really dark storyline, where this family struggles and ultimately they all die. It's tragic and emotional, but I wasn't happy with it. At first I believed it was too dark, too sad, too tragic. I changed a couple of details believing that it would cause a butterfly effect giving me a less bitter ending. Turned out the problem wasn't the darkness at all, but the fact it didn't have consequences fitting that much darkness. Now someone survives and the plot is even darker, but I'm happy with it because it's the proper setup for what has to come. It's alla a matter of misure and balance. Can't be dark for the sake of dark
I would argue that the first rule should be reworded. It's not that there are no heroes in grimdark, it's that they *don't matter.* One person with ideals will never be enough. They can win victory after victory but, at the end of the day, it's all pointless for one reason or another. The Ciaphas Cain novels are a good example. Cain saves lives, cities, worlds, hell entire sectors, but for every one of those he saves the nightmares of the 40k galaxy take ten times that amount.
Not pointless, those people and cities and worlds saved is better than no one saved
@Annalise Did Ciaphas Cain stopping a battle with the Tau before it started do jack shit for Cadia before the planet broke?
If one expects total victory in an unbeatable enemy than one is a fool if one achives small victories in the face of overwhelming odds than one is a hero and the act of heroisim alone should be praised.
Its like this person only values heroes that win and not those that are beaten but no broken by their enemies.
@NotYourGreatestPlan grimdark contrary to popular belief has good moral characters even if their in a flawed world take niteowl for example and people that don't see that should probably read something else.
The comic book, Kick-Ass 2, deviated from its relatively light-hearted comedic tone to a relatively grimdark one where a teenage girl got raped and brain-damaged, the titular character's dad was murdered, NYC was bombed, the heroes were falsely imprisoned, and several young children got shot in the face. It was ultimately depressing and least favorite comic in the series.
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Ya I liked the movie more. Hell most of mark millars work is needlessly nihilistic. Like nemesis where a guy forces the main characters children to have a child and rigs her womb to become barren if an abortion is attempted. Or wanted which has a rapist mass murderer as the protagonist and outwardly hates the reader for turning the page
Well there is the term Grimdank in the 40k Community, for when authors just let bad things happen to let bad things happen and it is just murderporn, like the boys comics
@@tumage8592 i thought its grimderp?
I dunno why I discovered this channel just a few days ago, not earlier. Just wanna say I freakin' LOVE way you talk about all the tropes and ultimate chad energy. Keep goin
I feel like grimdark has evolved to allow for content endings. Not the victory I wanted, but the victory I can afford type of endings. Granted, a lot of grimdark doesn't do that in which case hope it's not taking itself seriously because it's hard for me to.
One mistake... it was World War One, not two, that Tolkin fought in.
The Marshes of the dream were inspired by the quagmire of parts of the trenches.
He fought in both
@@siyacer No he didn't, he only fought in the first one. His only direct involvement in the second war was being approached by the government to potentially be a code breaker, and getting some basic training in how to do that role, but was never called into active service to do so.
Two of his sons did serve in the military during the second war though.
Tolkien always denied writing any part of lotr and the hobbit as a metaphor or symbolism for ww1. That being said I definitely think he did it subconsciously
@@dominikdeciga4307
I would not call it "symbolism", but rather a man writing what he knew.
@@dominikdeciga4307 No, he still didn't. Was he influenced by those events? Certainly. Are some of those influences clear in the work? Also again, very much so. And there are parts that he was very open about basing on things he saw while in the war.
But no, none of it was metaphor or allegory. It simply was what it was in text. Tolkien really, really disliked the entire idea of allegory. Instead simply presenting the text of the story as it is, not being more then what it is, and letting any other meaning or message come solely from how the reader relates to the text.
As someone who both writes a lot of angst and is dealing with trauma, the catharsis isn't the bad stuff, it's what comes after. I write my characters going through hell and then GIVE THEM A GOSH DARN HUG. I focus on supportive friends, working through trauma together, or even just individuals coming to terms with it on their own. For me, the problem with grimdark isn't the bad things that happen, but the lack of catharsis afterwards
I disagree, the best Grimdark stories have that Catharsis it just comes from a different source. I've referred to Berserk a few times in the comments but it's because I believe it's the best Grimdark story ever
Guts life sucks, the love of his life is a potato all his friends are dead and his best friend is an uncaring god obsessed with having his own kingdom. In the grand scheme of things he doesn't matter, but there's a cathartic hell yeah everytime he escapes a fight limp draging the dragonslayer behind him and when he does find a new group of allied he trusts you feel all the pain and exhaustion he felt just wash away like he did.
It's weird and hard to describe, read Berserk lol
I imagine you would enjoy Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive, if you have not already read it. It's all about broken and abused people finding inner strength and standing strong. I imagine you would enjoy Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive, if you have not already read it. It's all about broken and abused people finding inner strength and standing strong.
@@yordlejay6820 Berserk wouldn't be anywhere near as good as it is if it weren't for Miura being so ready and careful to remind the reader that there was, in fact, good and happiness to be found in Midland, and showing Guts having his ails eased by also being reminded of those things
@@rotciv557 I can agree with this notion, it doesn't make the setting any lighter however imo.
The only happiness in Midland is from a kingdom built by an ego maniacle sociopath on the bodies of all his closest compatriots that's run by a demonic army.
Other than that the closest thing to happiness is "hey, life may suck ass but at least it sucks ass with people I care about!"
This makes a lot of sense. Despite being enamoured by the sheer scope of some of the 4k character lore, the closest genuine exposer to grimdark was probably the Sins Revenant comic and when I still read that, the characters and situation were enthralling to me at the time, but the biggest drive that kept me up at night reading was to dig through to some glimmer of light, some small victory and a moment of relief, so I could walk away. And then I'd glance at the next chapter and be trapped again.
“All human wisdom is contained in these two words: ‘wait’ and ‘hope’!” - Alexandre Dumas
Stories in grimdark settings are uniquely positioned to teach us how to cope with, or find meaning in, failure. Other stories tend to teach that success is the inevitable result of persistence, that hope is always justified. But sometimes it isn’t. There’s merit in challenging the belief that hope is the only salvation for the hopeless.
GrimDark: mentioned
Space Marines: Allow us to introduce ourselves...
All other space marines: _look around in confusion_
Red did nothing wrong!
@Rick K yeah because the flesh tearers and the marine malevolents are really stand up guys who respect and not eat the citicens of the imperoum (FYI i love the flesh tearers lore being grimdark jesus's angry borderline psickotick children of their brood)
@Rick K Wut? Marines are a bunch of mentally stunted children turned into killing machines who have a deep emotional disconnect from their regular humans counterparts, which is part of the reason many turn to chaos. That's pretty grim dark IMHO.
@Rick K "The Guard is the Grimdark part of the universe" Ah yes, the Imperial Guard is the only thing making 40k a grimdark setting.
As someone who was deeply depressed and enjoyed consuming grimdark, I think I can lend a bit of insight into why people like it. It’s pretty simple.
Grimdark is a wake-up call.
Other genres typically present their protagonists as heroes who try their hardest, working to make the world better, and teaching the audience to also go out and make a change. Grimdark tells you, in no uncertain terms, what happens when you don’t make a change. What happens when you stay shrouded in fear and anxieties and negative emotions.
Grimdark helped me out of my depression, because I needed someone to tell me “you have to make a change” and not “you will win in the end.” Winning is such a far-off concept to those in deep depression.
Interesting. My experience is: Happy things make me angry; darker and more depressive things make me feel happy.
That is quite the perspective and I thank you for sharing it.
I wound up 100% agreeing here. The only line I personally draw with grimdark is when pain and suffering is somehow amplified over the story like the author is trying to 1-up themselves to the point of the reader wishing that everyone would just die already. This one tends to happen because the story has become a vehicle for torture porn.
Toe to Tip That's a Bart dam just wow not that i'm being mean or anything just wow
I think for that kind of theme to work, you do need at least one character who can effect change, at least for a little while, in a part of the story. And of course that change can be flawed or collapse due to mistakes made, but if you have all the characters failing to do anything positive because the writer constantly conspires to make it so, rather than through their own choices, you end up with despair rather than a wake-up call.
At the end of the Pratchett quote, I was crying. Thank you.
It's refreshing to hear someone stating that hope is worthwhile and not childish. I feel as if an angsty, immature nihilism has seeped into our societies, and it is causing a great deal of damage that may take years to undo.
"I hate it when someone calls my worldview childish". Proceeds to call other worldviews childish.
@@brawlyaura5799 So, are we not in the midst of an angst-filled, existential crisis then? Where's the lie? It's not hypocrisy to point out someone else's projection.
@@aurenkleige "My criticism of others is a fair and insightful critique that cuts veils and reveals naked truths. While their criticism of me is a clumsily exaggerated and disingenuous straw man that I don't have to dignify with a rebuttal"
That's what everyone says anyway. But don't worry, I'm sure it's actually true in your case.
@@brawlyaura5799 Talk about creating a strawman. I did not say anything of the sort; allow me to repeat myself. I simply pointed out that it was refreshing that someone else thought that having a positive, hopeful view on things was not childish, etc, and simply pointed out that at least a portion of those who would inhabit the realm of nihilism and existentialism typically levy this particular critique at others, but are immature themselves.
Any particular reason why you are being so nasty and weird in your responses here? Have I offended you or something?
@aurenkleige I dunno, I guess I'm just in one of my angst-filled, existential crises.