Trope Talk: Tragedy
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- čas přidán 28. 01. 2021
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Alas, alack, and all that jazz - today let's discuss a genre we all love to watch crash and burn!
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"Scheming Weasel" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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By popular demand, the "Monologuing Is Not A Victimless Crime" quote is now on our Redbubble! (and it hits different on a mask, just saying 👀)
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-R
That was quick.
Woooo!
You guys work fast
Great episode, though I was hoping references to gangster narratives like Scarface and Breaking Bad
Mask ordered 😀
"Monologuing is not a victimless crime"
~Red, monologuing criminal
I love it to get monolouged at hard and fast.....
*coffs*
....Sorry. Gotta do that one.
This Compulsive Clownery will be my downfall at some Point.....
She's the tragic heroine of her story.
Let's just hope it turns into a Comedy
*T-shirt 👕 when?*
Red in Death of a Supervillain
50% Tragedy, 50% Parody
@@nikgokuhil 100% Sarcasm.
"He can't be persuaded to stop searching for answers about why his kingdom is ravaged by plague."
That's how you know it's fiction.
This is my favorite comment so far
Today you win the internet good sir
Too soon, man
I hereby bestow you with the beat comment award on this video 🏆
Oh, damn this hurts, yo. XD
Red to the audience: “You sly dogs! You got me monologuing!”
I understood that reference!
I felt that one though xD
"Kung Fu Panda 2 is a deliberate Greek Tragedy if you look at it from the antagonist's perspective" if my new favorite take
that movie slaps on so many levels
@@fishkittywhiskers5433 Jack Black is one of the best voice actors of our time, and not enough people acknowledge that.
The entire trilogy was a well-planned and well-crafted story
Best takes
And that's why Lord Shen's voice actor is Gary Oldman, dramatic British guy (?)
Shakespeare be like: What if I made Greek tragedies, but like, *everyone* suffers
So.. Whole value Greek tragedies?
"What if I made a story where a girl wants to bang a guy with a donkey head and then we made a guy a wall so we could make a bunch of dick jokes?"
@@dracocrusher that sounds strangely like Shakespeare in Hollywood
Why does Will sound like a stoner?
@@donatodiniccolodibettobardi842 Can't be a stoner without some serious stones
Fun fact: The Author of Death of a Salesman originally intended it as a dark comedy. He supposedly thought it was going to be really funny, and read it to his family to gauge their reaction. Supposedly, he was very surprised when they were all in tears by the end of it.
Sounds like he had a strange sense of humor
Sounds like something that could happen to me
"Human misery *chuckles* am I right, you guys?"
@@Vinlaand They may also have thought it was him working through his own concerns(may still have been)
I used to have a therapist whose partner was a director so we we'd talk about theater a lot. He once asked me if I liked any comedies. I said my favorite play was a comedy. I meant The Seagull.
"A fatal flaw is just an innocent character trait in the wrong place at the wrong time." I love when people point out that most traits can be both good and bad, just depending on the situation you're in.
Same with utopias and dystopias
@@Pizzanator-gp2bb yea that true there actauly a webnovel i heem reading that premises is actually based off of the concept that utopias and dystopias are aboyt the same woth soneone from our world ending up in a game like fantasy world that have no wars, no striff between races, not even crime cause the thoughts pf such actions are being erased before they can have them though the system. It called 'an unbound soul' if you want to tead it. It even fall into tge fallen hero trope as well since the one responsible for all this is actually a protagonist from one of the author's earlier works.
With this quote in mind, my new head-canon is that Achille's heel was his g-spot.
Whenever I hear that line, my mind jumps to Half Life 2's “The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.”
That’s why Darwin’s whole point of his theory of evolution is that adaptability is key to a species survival
"I use to think my life was a tragedy, but now I realise it's a Trope Talk."
Where was this line from again? The Joker or The Watchmen?
@@daniellins4114 Joker
Thanks
@@umayyadball4126 Which never made sense to me, because comedies are supposed to have happy endings, while Joker's life have everything but a happy ending
@@HoradeFidges it’s a tragedy because his life is unbearably sad and literally nothing goes right, but it’s a comedy bc he’s driven insane by everyone else’s complete lack of empathy for his situation and this leads to him thinking that all he is is the butt of a harsh cruel joke
Don't worry Red, we all cried when cabbage man's cart got destroyed.
After laughing the first three time 😂
"My cabbages!"
Avatar destroying a man's whole income.
Such are the terrors of war.
Cabbage man is the most tragic in avatar. His cart is constantly destroyed
Cabbage.
Cabbage never changes.
“Monologuing is not a victimless crime.”
Tshirt?
Yea!
I had to pause the video for a couple of minutes to laugh at that joke
Yesss!!!
Please
Yes
"monologuing is not a victimless crime"
SHE SAYS IN THE MIDDLE OF A 19-MINUTE VIDEO ESSAY
We are the victimas
Ok but 19 minutes are rookie numbers, have you Seen hboomerguy
I belive that one cannot conflait dissertation and monologing...
@@d0gbug Truer today than ever before
Ssssshhhhhh
"Lady Macbeth's murder eyes were bigger than her murder stomach," is probably the best thing I've heard all month.
lol it made my day
"Nicely ties it into a neat bow, much like Oedipus' family tree"
"Troubled young man is haunted by a ghost, is driven mad, and murders quite a lot of people."
... Huh. Hamlet re-framed as the Shining.
"Heeeeere's Hammy!"
Underrated comment
Mind Blown ,Wow!!!!
“In the immortal words of well known trickster deity: bugs bunny” *wheeze*
Looking like a double wide surpise
He IS the Animated Manifestation of the Brier Rabbit, soooooo
@@wiilov who is directly related to Anansi
fun fact: legally speaking, bugs bunny is canonically a former struggling rapist
@@SM-qv2om what?
The thing about Romeo and Juliet is that Romeo was, yes, impulsive and fell deeply in love with a new lady every month while Juliet was, like, twelve and more in love with being in love than with Romeo. If the two families hadn't been feuding, they'd have dated for a couple weeks, Romeo would have fallen for a new girl, and Juliet would have been heartbroken and driven to write goth poetry for awhile. Well or Juliet would have gotten pregnant and they'd have had whatever the equivalent of a shotgun wedding was.
It's only the thrill of being edgy and cool by defying their parents that keeps Romeo's focus on Juliet for so long.
She's 14 and Romeo is 17. They are just dumb teenagers messed up by the circumstances.
In Juliet’s defense, she was going to be married off to a grown ass man she barely knew and who treated her like property, so I think she saw Romeo as a way out
In the immortal words of Juliet’s Sassy Gay Friend “I love him”/“You met him Sunday, it’s barely Thursday morning. Slow down crazy, slow down.”
People arguing about whether or not Romeo and Juliet were *actually* in love or not are missing the point. The tragedy is caused because of how they were let down by every adult in their lives. It's meant to make you look at the kids and think "oh no, no, NO you poor BABIES this is going to go so badly because your family members are stuck in a cycle of toxic violence."
Somehow that makes it more tragic. The fact that they could have gone on to fall in love with more people. The fact that maybe they died for nothing is even more sad.
My favorite aspect of the tragedy in Lord Shen's story is that the prophecy is _not_ "A panda will kill you," but is in fact "A panda will foil your plans of conquest." Shen could have easily thwarted his prophecy if he wasn't so devoted to his ambitions of taking over China.
i think despite that he still interpreted it as "you will die by the paws of a panda", i mean "foil your plans" is still pretty vague.
Actually that would still fulfill it. The threat of the panda foiled them
Even deciding pandas were the problem was an arbitrary decision on Shen's part. The prophecy said "a warrior of black and white". ANY black and white animal could have fit, he just decided the prophecied warrior was a panda, genocided a bunch of pandas, and pronounced his work complete, completely unaware that a panda cub, orphaned by the massacre, was being delivered to the doorstep of a kindly goose in a radish basket...
Heck, some people have theorized the warrior of black and white was Shen himself, because he set in motion the events that would turn Po into the Dragon Warrior and set panda and peacock against each other, and he chose suicide over letting go of his pain.
Zeus: mother f-
Hera: the kids are here
Zeus: sorry, oedipus
i shouldn't have laughed as hard as i did
fucking hell! i almost want to use that now, but so very few people would get it and i'd just be embarrassed.
@@SovereignwindVODs if you don’t mind can you explain it too me? I’m not sure how to search it up :”)
@@itzelramirez4801 Oedipus had kids with his mother,
Lol
"In modern rom com context, that would be like if the asshole boss shot the gay best friend halfway through the movie."
I have an idea for a Hallmark Christmas movie.
do it
Yesssss!!
A Girlboss Christmas.
@@toe_sucker_4165 oh another jackfilms fan
LMAO. I heard that quote and I immediately thought the same thing like "Damn, that would actually be a good plot twist."
Holy crap - I just realised that technically, DeathNote is a tragedy.
1. The protagonist starts out in a good position. (The son of well respected detective and well on his way to being even better then his father with his giftedness)
2. Fatal flaw (Light's narcissistic superiority complex and not being able to empathize for other human being)
3. Fatal flaw causes the reversal of fortune. (This is actually a bit hard to pin down when this happens because Light is in a constant state of highs lows victories and losses, but I'd put this moment at when he gets the Death Note and becomes Kira)
4. Things go downhill. (Basically everything after Episode 2)
5. Catharsis/Denouncement. (Light is finally outed, everyone turns against him, and then he dies)
6. Third-person omniscient perspective. (Ryukk/the Shinigami in general)
7. Shakespeare's collateral damage. (So many lives are ruined by Light's downfall but specifically his entire family is fucked over, Misa and Mikami take their lives after the fact, and the Death Note is taken away.)
I wouldn't say technically, dear... Ryuk makes it very clear that Light just plain CAN'T use the Death Note and expect a happy ending.
@@SexyBeamShooter Yeah but when they said technically they mean that it fits the requirements of a tragedy rather then it just being tragic.
@@coffeewolf5789 You're right. Excuse me, I miswrote. I edited my reply.
@@SexyBeamShooter Its good
i feel like the tragedy is essentially: a character can't keep on living the way they do, but don't manage to change.
What about this, (just as idea for a different kind of tragedy, one of personal perspective) the character has changed the way they live, the realize it, and feel a sense of loss over it even if no one else around them would feel that way.
@@animalia5554 that could be horrifiyingly fucking depressing if you took it in the right direction
@@s_c_u_m3172 I kind of do that personally all the time. That's WHY I brought it up.
edit: This specific line of thought that I mentioned I mean.
@@animalia5554 yeah, that is something i think i know. Like... oh, is it still me? Let's just cope by lying ourselves. Wait, did not I hate lying? Well, it seems i changed once again. Oh, but... People are just weird and messed up mishmashes.
_It was at this moment that she knew her life was a tradgey. She was terrified of changing her life._
"But damn if it doesn't tie up all those loose ends into a nice little bow. Which is coincidentally also what it did to Oedipus' family tree" Holy shit, you killed the man, Red.
i can't see the joke here, but then Oedipus probably can't see it either
@@themandownstairs4765 family tress have branches, tying the branches to a bow cause incest and stuff
@@ryeryeryerye i... was making a joke about Oedipus blinding himself? I edited it to make the joke more obvious.
@@ryeryeryerye r/woosh
@@themandownstairs4765 also, he was metaphoricly blind to it before and apon his eyes being opened to it, he reacted with gauging them out.
"But damn if it doesn't tie up all those loose ends into a nice loose bow,which is coincidentally what happened to Oedipus's family tree."
Red must've felt so good about this line and I don't blame her.
I had to pause the video for a second when I heard that
Macbeth proves that character development doesn't have to be positive.
Hamlet is basically Collateral Damage: The Play.
this fits a little to well
And it's still in thy kiddy pool if you put it up agairt Titus Andronicus.
While the Danish royal family are murdering each other, the Norwegian army takes their castle. A Norwegian prince delivers the last lines of the play. They lost the whole country as collateral damage.
there is an ingenious rap that summerises Hamlet, sadly in german, where they have a line translating basicly to "Hamlet danish dynamit, one dies and takes everyone along"
It is great to remember most characters unusual names and is despite how funny it is, quite acurate.
Not to mention the political situation in Denmark that would've followed
Take note, supervillans: “Monologuing is not a victimless crime.”
GOOD! Free points to my BODY COUNT!
"Wait, I thought we had a deal here.
I"ll wait you transform, power up or whatever you like to do before a fight, and you let me have my time reciting my essay about how I am right."
I was wondering... how many supervillains ended up as victims of their own monologues because they weren't keeping an eye on the hero? 😀
@@BennyLlama39 Just the one from The Incredibles!
What if: A villain that uses the monologuing to hurt people knowingly?
The comic relief also dies in Fullmetal Alchemist in a terrible day for rain.
What do you mean? It wasn’t raining...
@@rationalroundhead6739 yes it was.
*Proceeds to cry
AARRGHHH Why? WHY?! I didn't need to cry today!
@@younggamer7218 oh...
@@younggamer7218 hook, Line, and sinker
"The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world"
- G-man
There is G
"And while the prequels pull off this character quality with all the grace and subtly of a rhinoceros on roller skates, The Clone Wars actually did make us believe that loving his friends too much was a real, genuine, fatal flaw that was going to cause Anakin's fall into the dark side and turn him into the stoic, living respirator we all know and love."
Not really. There's one instance where it is presented as a "bad" thing and that's the brain worm arc and the two Clovis arcs but the latter is more about how his and Padme's relationship is horrible as he doesn't respect her at all or even really care about her desires hell pretty much states this in ATOC. Every other time it's presented as a good thing Ahsoka framed arc and Obi-wan infiltrating the Bounty Hunter Squad arc.
@@slyfer60 Fatal flaws are not character "flaws" they are character traits. It does not matter if they are presented as good, bad, healthy or unhealthy. What maters is that he is shown to have them and that they eventually lead to his downfall.
@@aidanlevy2841 it doesn't though his fatal flaws aren't that he loves his wife to much it's that he's gullible and stupid. In the hands of a skilled writer maybe it could work. But Lucas and Filoni aren't that skilled. I don't want to argue about this. Let's just drop it ok.
@@slyfer60 Yeah... you really don't get to have the last word and then pivot straight into "let's just drop it" like you're somehow being the bigger person here. For the record, I'm with Aidan (and Red) on this one. Anakin's drive to protect his loved ones is exactly what made him so susceptible to manipulation. Whether you think it was well executed or not is entirely beside the point.
@@johnkidby7948 I'm not getting into this again. The message is very vague and the story is to lazy to pull it off well. I'm trying not to argue about these movies anymore.
“It’s like if the mean boss killed the gay best friend” I was caught completely off guard by this. amazing, just amazing!
So...Destiel?
Though anytime I see a gay friend, I'm often nervous they will be offed. The like the mentioned ticking timebomb we are all made aware of.😬😬😬😬
I can't believe you skipped over "The Tragedy of Darth Plagues the Wise."
You can hardly blame them, it's not exactly a story the Jedi would tell you
It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a dark lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life…
They should make a stage play of the tragety of darth plagues
@@Mr_Fish10 Ironic
It's quite ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself
My personal favorite example of "fatal flaws are situational" is that Anakin Skywalker would have done *so* well in a shonen anime. In shonen, caring to much about your friends is the ultimate heroic trait. Meanwhile poor Anakin had the misfortune to be born into a world where the closest thing there is to a power-of-love based powerup is the Dark Side, so he turns evil.
I love the way Hadestown frames the idea of a tragedy: it plays on the human need for hope. Perhaps, just perhaps, this time Orpheus won’t turn, or Eurydice won’t go to Hadestown, or Hades will allow Persephone to stay for summer longer. But the fact that every time you see Orpheus turn, you hear gasps and dismay in the audience, is because the whole thing builds up to him not turning, even though anyone with a general knowledge of Greek myth knows he turns around. But as Hermes says “it’s an old song, it’s a sad tale from way back when, it’s an old song, but we’re gonna sing it again and again!” Tragedies remind us that while bad things happen, we have control of our fate and we have to hope that things become better, because it’s human nature to want and hope for the better, even in the face of darkness.
They need to make a version of a Rom Com that has the plot and ending of Romeo and Juliet but the vibe of a Rom Com. It's the only way for a modern audience to truly experience it.
Titanic...
Romeo and Juliet IS a satirical rom com, and like all Shakespear plays is full of penis jokes and other crude humor. A fact that seems to be lost on modern snobs under the impression that it's a tragic emotional tale.
@Assassin Boye1191 umm, don’t say shit like that. That’s incredibly ableist.
I treated it as such in my English class. It made the story so much better.
@Assassin Boye1191 See, I know you're trying to make a point... But you've kinda made everyone less inclined to look at your argument because of the tactless language you've employed.
Remember to read your work before you post it.
“You nearly forgot I’m not classy at all!” is an excellent line.
@@revan552 I wholeheartedly agree.
Something I love about Anakin’s downfall is it shows that there is a kind of selfishness to love. Love can bring out the worst in you, as well as the best.
"Death of a Salesman" sounds like a good story to watch/read with a very relevant life lesson. It would have been helpful for me when I went through school and for many others, I wonder why it wasn't even mentioned... Oh yes, because it admits that being mediocre is somehow acceptable and that chasing the unattainable at all costs is inevitably harmful. Not the sort of thing that the school system I went through wanted people to even consider.
I actually did read it in school albeit for Drama class and not English and we acted out a few scenes, but Drama's an elective with much more freedom to teach what it wants.
@@sirensong1794 I also know it's studied on my friend's english course - though again it's an elective one we take after secondary school
I distinctly remember having to read it in one of my High School language arts classes (a mandatory course, though I was in the "honors" class).
Very true, they want kids and teens to be wildly unrealistic about the future. Ironically making things so much worse when reality rears it’s head.
I sometimes wish that Mediocraty would not be viewed with such disdain.
Yeah, sure, pursue your dreams and all. But some people think if they are not the greatest at whatever they are pursuing, they are a failure.
And suddenly that joke in Legally Blonde: the Musical makes a lot more sense.
Which joke?
@@kiddo6393 There's a part where when Elle first finds out that Warner and Vivian are dating, she kind of disassociates/has a hallucination where her sorority sisters show up and one one of them explains "Elle, THIS is a tragedy. And every tragedy needs a Greek Chorus!"
I was always like, "Oh, Greek Chorus because they're a sorority. Makes sense." I didn't know that a Greek Chorus was an actual thing in Greek tragedies.
@@BandFairy Thanks a ton
Like Elle, that musical is much smarter than people tend to believe.
As someone who has both read a lot of Greek tragedies and was in the greek chorus in Legally Blonde: The Musical, that line always makes me laugh.
Ancient Greek tragedy character: All of my family has died, I have no place to go to, my reputation has tarnished and i'll never be able to make up for it again...
Chorus: 0 - 0 oh damn that sucks, anyways...
𝒯𝒽𝒶𝓉'𝓈 𝒜𝓁𝓁 𝐹𝑜𝓁𝓀𝓈!
* Looney Tunes Credits plays *
*cackles* You should make a video 'bout your Comment. It'd be hilariously awesome!!
@@alexgrim5165 ...uh... how specifically
@@will__mem9rno Read it out, with appropriate visuals. It probably makes for really solid 12-second comedy.
@@elijahpadilla5083 I guess its possible to do it in OSP's style (Di-vine is probably a good inspiration). Now i just need a drawing software, recording software, and an editing software. Problem is im legit too young to get a job XD
if i could tho, i'll try to make it.
That's why it's called a tragedy. If it had a happy ending it would have been called a "Disney movie".
"character flaws are just innocent character traits in a wrong environment" well said. Another great episode explaining both history and structure of tragedies better than my teachers ever did in half the time
So you're telling me my anxiety thinks everyday is going to be a Greek Tragedy
Very relatable
“The tragedy is a very simple straight line,”
*Red I don’t think we can say the same for Oedipus family line...*
OOP
@@theflickchick9850 Size mega.
You might say that's more of... A bowline.
More like a tree whose roots connect to the branches
Pretty sure Creon was Jocasta's brother, and his son Haemon was engaged to Antigone. You think they would have learned to mix things up a bit. That makes Haemon and Antigone about three kinds of overlapping cousins.
Red is right train wrecks are like tragedy
good starting position: is a train
fatal flaw: moving to fast / brakes not good enough
reversal of fortune: what the trains gonna crash into
downfall: train hits the object
catharsis/denouncement: very violent train crash
Third person omniscient audience: you beside the track where you can see everything
Shakespearean collateral damage: everything around and in the train
(edit fixed the spelling of brakes)
THOMAS NOOOOOO
my stupid comment got 36 likes and a reply nice.
edit 86 now. guess this is my magnum opus of CZcams comments forever more
@@Excelsior1937 He was sabotaged
By me
*grabs popcorn to watch the train wreck*
Good starting position: You have a great idea for a CZcams comment
Fatal flaw: Are to excited
Reversal of fortune: Make a typing mystake
Downfall: You can't enjoy how popular your comment is because of the poor spelling
Catharsis/denouncement: This comment
Third person omniscient audience: Everyone reading this
Shakespearean collateral damage: I go through the exact same process
"Its like if the dick boss shot the gay best friend"
Me: *has been headcanoning that Mercutio is Romeos gay best friend who's actually so angry cuz hes jealous for years*
You have no idea
Wait… That’s not Canon Cannon? 😆
@@keepperspective I mean it might be historical canon since I've heard that Mercutio was meant to be a version of one of Shakespeare's friends who was gay (or maybe even a lover?)
I thought Mercutio was Benvolio's lover
I would pay good money to watch “Hamlet starring Othello as Hamlet: the Musical.”
It wouldn’t last 15 minutes.
“Son, your uncle is responsible for my death. It is your duty to aven- what are you doing?”
“Well, you said he’s your killer. So I’m killing him back with this pillow.”
“Huh. That was easy.”
Actually, I just realized that Laertes was basically Hamlet played by Othello. Claudius tells him that Hamlet killed his father, which drove his sister insane and killed her. Laertes jumps onto “let’s murder Hamlet.” Except it doesn’t go well for him because he just gets wrapped up in Claudius’s scheming and thus dies.
it would be very short though
@@animeotaku307 that too, but what I find extreamly curious in all alteration of the story is, the importance that is put on Hamlet forgiving Laertes. In contrast to Desdemona, Hamlet was not framed, Laertes had good reasons to be royaly pissed at Hamlet, so why is it importend, that they reconciled? It kind of implies that they where close before and that their relationship matters . . .it is a weird detail I am hung up about
@@arianewinter4266 I mean, Hamlet WAS seeing his sister. It’s likely Laertes knew and was on board.
@@animeotaku307 he was very disapaproving of it though
Im just imagining Ancient Greeks doing Othello and just singing the stabs at the end
"This story's cool and all, but where's this Venice place?"
"About a thousand years from now, I think."
@@timothymclean "how ridiculous, a whole city built on sunken wood pilings, in the middle of a lagoon? Has the writer of this crap NEVER seen what sea water does to wood?!? I've done carpentry work in the ship yards, and I've seen what happens when wood gets waterlogged for too long, and I promise you nothing can built on it."
@@stephenflint3640 Underrated comment. Have my like.
There's an Italian opera adaptation of Othello if you want to see that.
@@diddycan **STAB** **Stab** **sta-a-ab!**
“Monologuing is not a victimless crime.” She says as she monologues...
We are the victims
@@nerco8194 Noooooooooooo
I think that alludes to social media and cancel culture.
When she said Anakin was, "A stoic living respirator..." I laughed so HARD.
"Well known trickster deity Bugs Bunny." I'm fackin dead. That was hilarious.
Remember: A tragic ending to one story could be the dark beginning to a new story with a happy ending.❤
Basically star wars ep 1-3
Or the odyssee ith happy slaughter bonding with his son and wife.
Sometimes tragedy can lead to something better.
93?
Well, yeah. a lot of shakespearian tragedies purposefully end with a hopeful future, the dead kings being replaced by more honorable next in lines.
Last time I was this early, zeus was still a virgin.
This made me laugh WAY more than it should have
THIS IS THE BEST “the last time I was this early” I HAVE EVER SEEN
are you really sure Zeus was ever a virgin? I THINK NOT
lmao this is probably the first last time I was this early joke that actually made me physically laugh
Underrated reply
so this is where Rick Riordan get his "Every Demi God have fatal flaw" things
Ooooh what does that mean?
@@siddiqsmouse5004 it mean Rick Riordan took another greek thing to enrich his story.
@@illyasvielemiya9059 oh lol thanks
i know right? i mean, percy jackson is just anakin skywalker but with actual good mentors instead of a council of idiots
@@afasdfasafd314 holy shit
Red, Red, those Shakespeare videos are not a thing to be ashamed of, they were amazing. They still are. You've just gotten better.
Trope Talk about Tragedies
Azula's in it, isn't it?
Edit: No ATLA references? Red, are you okay?
I mean if Avatar was told from Azula's perspective it might be a tragedy (Prodigy beloved child, fatal flaw is treating people like chess pieces, downfall is being driven mad when her most loyal chess pieces turn on her and she's then outsmarted by a water tribe peasant she considered beneath her) but it's not told from her perspective.
to be fair, she’s referenced avatar a lot. probably because it’s a god tier show but still
@@hellothere2464 That it is
No BB either
Also no Magnus Archives? She’s been recommending it through the last trope talks and it’s tieing up rn
The part about Hamlet n Othello being the antithesis of each other's tragedy blew my mind. It's so true
This makes me think of Percy Jackson, specifically Luke's character arc, which really is a textbook tragedy if you look closer at it. If you think back to the beginning of his life he doesn't really start in a good position, but I think being the counselor of the Hermes cabin and well-respected at Camp Half-Blood counts. Then, there's his fatal flaw, which Rick Riordan confirmed to be wrath. He let his anger at his gods blind him, and that made it easy for Kronos to get inside his head and manipulate him. Then, it was basically all a downward spiral from there as he starts doing worse and worse things and betrays everyone he's ever cared about, until eventually he hosts Kronos. Eventually, he realizes all the harm he's caused and that he needs to fix it, and he does, but he dies in the process.
*This video has been Turtle Approved* ✓
6 likes in 23 seconds lol
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Ut says that theres 27 comments but the Only one i can actually see is yours
Turtle
the great seel of approval
“,I got you with all this Shakespeare and Opera talk, you nearly forgot that I’m not classy at all!”
That should be on their merch.
@@BlackCover95 it really should
This kind of stuff is what makes Red my favorite person
She really did have me going. I really was thinking "wow this is weird for this channel. Were are the anime references?"
Whoa...”third-person omniscient audience” flipped me upside down for a moment. Narrative study always talks about point of view from the narrator’s chair. I’m going to spend this cold Sunday morning thinking about point of view from the audience chair (independent of the narrator).
Hot take--Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back, is a tragedy from Han Solo's perspective
Alright, what's the character trait that does Han in in ESB?
I suppose it's his highly impulsive attitude considering he takes the first chance he gets to get while the going is still in fact good, even when waiting it out might not be the worst idea and in fact would be helpful.
@@red5t653 I think it’s his newfound sense of morality. If he’d gone straight to Tattooine and paid his debt to Jabba, bounty hunters wouldn’t be after him. But because he wouldn’t abandon the people he came to care about, he got frozen in carbonite.
“Monologuing is not a victimless crime” Red this video is literally a monologue!
and we're the victims
@@gege0298 not in my eyes, if Red delivered a lecture on myths and or tropes I'd join that class in a millisecond.
I would like to point out that most zoom classes are monologues now
RED YOU MURDERED MY SISTER!
The victims are the characters we will be putting through tragedies based on this video
Tragedy? Didn't know it was going to get personal.
GAGAGAGAGAAGAG this is wonderful! PRANK! It is terrible! I looked in the mirror and saw something UNPRETTY: my face. GAGAGAGAG! But I am happy again because I have TWO HOT GIRLFRIENDS and I make cool YT videos with them! Good evening, love and peace, dear civ
@@AxxLAfriku the fuck are you on about?
Yeah, I’m wondering too
Self-advertising, probably. He's likely acting like this on purpose. Best to ignore him.
@@AxxLAfriku oh hey it’s you.
"fatal flaws are entirely a matter of circumstance"
something people should start realising IRL.
"Hamlet: Overthinker"
I feel seen and called out
Also, the slide at 18:01 gave me serious Matt Groening "Life In Hell" vibes, omg
“All the grace and subtly of a rhinoceros on roller skates” ok red I’m sorry but I’m so using that one day lol
17:00
"Do something right now!"
"NO! MY CAREFUL PLANS!"
is the BIGGEST mood.
Unrelated, but my favourite stupid game for backstage in theatres is one I made up called Let's Fix Shakespeare. Your objective is to give as many Shakespeare plays as possible happy endings and your only tool is the ability to swap the major character/s. Given how many of the characters are only doomed because of the narrative in, you can have a lot of fun playing swapsies. It's also much harder than it seems considering half the stories already have decent endings, because you have to find homes for the human disasters. You can swap Hamlet and Macbeth and have things basically work out fine, if still slightly murdery, but you have to find a kingdom for Coriolanus to stop him blowing up, and good luck finding a place to put Lear or Romeo that they won't just destroy everything.
The current high score is 30 good endings with 4 kind-of-okay endings and 3 oh-no endings, or 32 good endings with 5 oh-nos.
Ok that sounds really really fun, I might try that with my friends
read the title and was like: "star wars, star wars, star wars, star wars, star wars, YAAAAAAAY STAAR WAARS"
Red: “Oedipus Rex doesn’t have anything resembling a happy ending, but damn if it doesn’t tie up all those lose ends into a nice little bow... which is, coincidentally, what it did to Oedipus’ family tree.”
*Me: needing to pause the video to laugh*
(Casually likes own comment)
Causally likes comment as well*
honestly that was just the last twist on the Pretzel that is his family tree
Jeff Foxworthy enters the chat... ;o)
"Monologuing is not a victimless crime" is my new favourite OSP quote.
"My hubris just gave me an idea!"
~Most tragedy protagonists
Hamilton seems like an interesting take, seeing your list on the parts of a tragedy. The protagonist and antagonist both are living their own tragedy, and both have their own fatal flaw. Because of that flaw they start spiraling downwards, but halfway through, they SWITCH this flaw with one another and finish their downfall.
If you ever see this comment, Red, check out the play.
Not only that but that at the critical point they are each expecting that the other guy is going to still be acting the same way they would have back in the beginning.
Some people don’t know how many people have died in tragic refrigerator accidents. It’s a real problem.
In the US, 6 people die that way each year. 5 of them are insurance appraisers.
Refrigerator accidents?
Just ask Kyle Rayner!
@@ClericalError87 Community reference.
Here’s a quote about Shakespeare’s plays that I once heard:
If it’s a tragedy, there’s a death.
If it’s a comedy, there’s a wedding.
Kkkkk
What about a death in a wedding?
@@joshuakusuma5953 a tragicomedi
@@joshuakusuma5953 tragecomedy
If it's a history, there's a king.
“Monologuing is not a victimless crime” is a hilarious quote
One great example of tragedy being based on character traits "in the wrong place at the wrong time" is the musical Hamilton. Act 1 is a quintessential modern underdog story, while Act 2 has the plot trajectory of a Shakespearean tragedy, and basically nothing changes except the character's circumstances. Just like that, his ambition, confidence, and work ethic go from useful assets to fatal flaws. It also has the tragedy-like elements of an omniscient chorus and the ending being revealed right at the start.
I'd love to see a CZcams series of "Shakespearean tragedies undermined by swapping protagonists."
'At least when Hamlet's life fell apart, he got a cool sword-fight out of it.'
Oh! Oh! I just remembered the perfect "story is tragedy from villian's perspective" example.
Avatar the Last Airbender from Azula's perspective.
In case it's not obvious, let's go down the list (pause at 12:22 for reference):
1. Azula starts out as the princess of a powerful nation, her father's favorite, and with 2 very loyal friends
2. Her Fatal Flaw is a combination of ambition and pride.
3. Her ambition leads her to fight the Avatar and support her father, while her pride leads her to mental instability and overconfidence during the final Agni Kai
4. The Sozin's Comet episodes, yada yada yada, Zuko because Fire Lord while Azula throws a tantrum and unltimatly goes to a mental asylum.
5. The fact that she does loose at a firebending match agianst a Water Bender and her Brother brings some nice Catharsis for the audience
6. Since the original story comes from the Gaang's perspective and this is a kid's story genere-savey audience realize that she's inevitably going to loose because she is the antagonist and not as sympathetic as Zuko.
7. Collateral damage include: Ba Sing Se, the Dai Li, Mai, and Ty Lee. Ba Sing Se is conquered for her ambition, the Dai Li become her political tools, and both Mai and Ty Lee end up in jail after finally fighting back against a toxic friendship group.
Sorry for the late reply, but I can think of another such good example: the stories of both May and Luke Castellan within Percy Jackson and the Heroes of Olympus.
In the case of May and Luke, both had the flaw of Pride, but one took it a step further by having a strong protective drive (Luke, specifically). You also can't tell the story of one without the other, as May's downfall directly leads into Luke's story truly beginning.
May starts in a decent position, having a talent for truesight and prophecy and even wooing Hermes. However, her Pride gets the better of her after hearing the state of the current Oracle of Delphi and she believes that despite having had a child, she can become the new Oracle. Unfortunately, it is impossible for a woman who has "known a man" to become the Oracle, and instead her mental state is shattered, leading to the rough childhood that Luke goes through from that point onwards that leads him into setting out, meeting Thalia Grace and Annabeth Chase, and eventually reaching Camp Half-Blood, though it came at the (albeit temporary) cost of Thalia's life to get there.
From here, Luke develops an intense disdain for the Olympian God's because of how many of their children go unclaimed or seemingly unnoticed, ignoring how much his mother's situation had pained his father, even if he couldn't always be present. This, coupled with the whisperings of Kronos led him to steal Zeus' Lightning and eventually become the host for Kronos' power. However, his downfall was that he cared: he knew the Golden Fleece could revive Thalia, and as such allowed it to reach Camp Half-Blood and do exactly that; his promise to Annabeth when they were younger always caused him to stay his blade while she was around and, ultimately, was what let him fight against Kronos' influence long enough to defeat himself and preserve Olympus, which in turn protected his chosen family in Thalia and Annabeth.
@@rayhatesu I am pretty sure the reason of may insanity is that, under hades curse, the Oracle couldn't be replaced.
@@lori0747 that was a small part of it, but her issue was compounded by her parenthood. Even were the curse not in effect, she was trying to take on the duty after already having been ineligible to perform it.
@@rayhatesuthough the May trying to be the Oracle thing is kind of muddied, by Hades cursing the last Oracle to stay the Oracle until the Di Angelo kids are accepted.
I'm so cheered by the amount of jokes that Red did about Hamlet in the video, because it's my favourite Shakespearean play, since I relate the most to Hamlet (don't overthink it). I actually was wheezing when Iago is telling Hamlet "Just kill her!" and Hamlet is "Not until I've gauge her reaction to this play"; he's so extra but so relatable.
“Okay, you saw her reaction. What are you waiting for?!”
“I’m going to listen in on her in this confessional.”
“And then?!”
“Well, I can’t kill her there because then she’s absolved of sin and goes to Heaven. So I’ll wait until she’s actually cheating on me so when I kill her she’ll go to Hell.”
Iago then left to bang his head against a wall repeatedly.
@@animeotaku307 You're absolutely right 🤣🤣🤣🤣
When you said “ kung fu panda 2” my *immediate* thought was “I’m writing this on both of my kung fu panda 2 DVDs”
One tragedy that I thought was done really interesting was the musical Hadestown, a retelling of the story of Orpheus and Eurydice. The interesting thing is that Orpheus’s fatal flaw changes throughout the story and each time it makes things worse. In the beginning, his unshakable belief that the world is a just place and everything will be fine once he finishes his song leads him to neglect Eurydice, who ends up leaving him for the comfortable security Hadestown offers. But when it comes time for them to leave Hadestown, the journey has made him realize how much the powers that be can and will screw over others and now he can’t shake the thought that Hades must have tricked him just to get him to leave, leading to the big moment when he looks back.
His flaw is being a fuckup in general.
Yes, that's also a favorite of mine because the cyclical nature of the story and Hades and Persephone's development make it a tragedy that still looks forward and always sees hope on the horizon. That's the bittersweetness I crave.
"Oedipus Rex doesn't have a happy ending but damn if it didn't tie up all those loose threads into a neat little bow, which is, conincidentally, also what it did to Oedipus' family tree."
Red, you are a treasure.
"partially sung" - so Hadestown is more accurate than I realized
Last time I was this early, people were still excited about a live action Avatar on Netflix.
Edit: This wasn't supposed to get likes w h a t
Fitting for the theme of tragedy.
They’re going to age the up the characters. I was fine with that because there’s a lot of stuff that’s kinda weird for their ages but then I heard the why
@@clairdeloona why? What did Netflix whanted to do now?
Hahaha yeeeeah
@@abelardodelatorresolis3966 they wanted Aand and Katara to bone
"Any character trait can become a flaw in the wrong situation" sounds a lot like a variation of Captain Picard's "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose."
Not really. Picard's is about failure being possible even when no mistake is made, the other simply states that a virtue can be a flaw in the wrong situation.
@@vaclavjebavy5118 If you manage to live completely virtuously and are still in a tragedy... you still have lost. You will have made no mistakes due to a vice or a flaw - everything you did was right and virtuous, yet still lost. That was the point I was making.
I'm with @@vaclavjebavy5118 on this one. It's not about living virtuously. It's about the main character reacting poorly for the situation (ie: being too cautious in a situation that demands action). AKA- a mistake, AAKA - doing something wrong
@@irispounsberry7917 I don't think that's quite right. Yes, many tragic flaws could be virtues in another situation, but the Hero _isn't in_ another situation - he's in a situation where that possible virtue is, in fact, a failing that will bring the Hero down. And very often the Hero is explicitly warned about it, and _could_ (but won't, because tragedy) fix the situation with a little flexibility.
Picard was talking about coming off worse in a competition or conflict through no fault of your own, simply because your opponent is stronger, smarter, sneakier, or whatever-er. That's really not the same thing.
@@irispounsberry7917 I see the connection, but it's rather faint. Perhaps a virtue can serve as a fatal flaw (as in, the character acts righteously and prudently, but through no fault of their own fate decides to be a bitch and make that objectively moral and logical action spiral the character into tragedy), but it's a secondary interpretation. Picard's a boss either way.
In English class we're reading Romeo and Juliet. I play Mercutio and next Monday we start act 3. Guess I'll die
Another thing about Tragedies that I think a lot of people miss is the feeling that the sad stuff could have been avoided if the characters had made a different choice. I feel like people assume simply having bad stuff happen to your characters is what makes a Tragedy. However, the reason why stories like Hamlet, Hadestown, or more recently, Arcane work is that the characters had a hand in thier own downfall.
"What makes a tragedy is the circumstance that turns that character trait into a flaw". YESSSSS! The context/situation/circumstance is really the driving force.
Loyalty, curiosity, even caring too much, or focusing too much on the big/small picture can all be unbelievably fatal in the wrong circumstance.
Hamartia means “to miss the mark” far more than it does “flaw” or “sin”. It was used in terms of archery, when ones arrow would, you know, miss the mark you were shooting for. This is one of my Classics pet peeves
cool
Yes, but it almost always gets translated as "flaw" or "sin" because Greek didn't have a direct word for them and in context, it makes sense for the translation.
@@richiejacobson4272 I'll take idiomatic usage of words for $1000, sir!
If I'm not mistaken, the original word "sin" did translate to "miss the mark", but I forget if it was Hamartia or a different word that it's translated from. Perhaps it's something about how the Bible was in part translated from Greek, so the words "hamartia" and the original word for "sin" in Hebrew mean similar enough things that that's how it was translated. Again, I'm not entirely sure, but I think that's it :)
@@PikaLuigi The word sin likely comes from the latin word "sons/sont" which mean guilty. Hebrew has several words for what we refer as sin, so it's rather general translation wise.
I love how the “series of unfortunates events” tells you every episode how this is not a happy series and with no happiness in the future.
Yet it still gives you the slight slither of hope for the characters just to give you the “you didn’t think it would work out, didn’t you?” Punch in the gut.
I quite liked it, and that series was awesome
I’m just a little heartbroken that “tragedy” by the Bee Gees didn’t play in the background of this video. Great work as always tho, Red :)
Oooo, there's a fanfic idea, swapping Shakespeare's main characters into different plays.
No matter what the play is , Cesar always dies
Me: About to submit my mid-term paper on tragedy in literature
* Sees tropetalk title *
Me:Tragic
"Her murder eyes were bigger than her murder stomach"
Realtalk for the tropetalk...you may be on to something there Red...that's something alil deep to ponder
A nice pondering session on just that topic goes by the name _Crime and Punishment_ if you have a week or so to be horrified and think about murder far too deeply
Oooh, I learned something today! That a tragedy is the intersection of a character trait and unfortunate circumstances that turn it INTO a flaw - monologuing or curiosity or impulsiveness. The crossover of Macbeth and Othello made that REAL CLEAR and I'd never seen plays talked about like that, only ever in isolation, so hey! I give ya big kudos for that!
Greek plays are partially the reason Apollo is the god of poetry, music, AND dance. These things were basically combined into one thing.
You know what's not a tragedy? this video. This video is epic. And educational. that's why I'm watching this halfway though school if anybody asks. :D
Because you were so eager to learn from these videos, you neglected your actual schoolwork and your grades subsequently fell.
Now *that’s* tragedy.
"collateral damage" Every military general-esque villain wants to know your location.
The Monkey paw/Wishes gone bad are one of my favorite tropes in stories. I love stories where you see someone's dreams and wishes become warped or turn against them. It's fun to see what the writers come up with. I would love to see a Trope talk episode about the subject.