TBH due to Star Wars knowledge and how all of the characters introduced were never referenced in any other Star Wars movie they were good as dead since the beginning of the movie.
yeah, same aspie182. like, with the prequels you do hope they get better and better with each new installment since its the guy who started it all, of course he still wasnt the one that made them great. while the new ones, you know exactly why theyre being made. because they have the rights. thats it. they are being made not because they have a story to tell but to sell.
*aspie182* I'd say Rogue One falls even more flat than prequel trilogy. The main problem is that with this type of movie they were going for you have to develop characters and go for drama. But Rogue One forgot that characters should have personalities. You know you fucked up with characters' personalities when the character with most personality is a robot. Rogue One could've been great if filmed to be a drama. But what we've got is more like a Michael Bay movie. Rogue One is Transformers of Star Wars franchise. Mainly focused on battles and explosions, robots have more personality than human counterparts, special effects are the most important thing. But even compared to Transformers Rogue One falls flat because Transformers can be mindless fun. Rogue One is just mindless fanservice. Half of the references in Rogue One were completely unnecessary.
I’ve literally watched her pandora theme park video like 6 times, sometimes as somewhat background noise; meaning I’ve watched that video for 6 hours. Genuinely can’t stand rewatching most 2 hour movies with actual plots
I'm 3 years late to mention that since Disney+ is doing a Cassian and K2 series, we are literally getting a prequel to Rogue One. You must be some kind or oracle.
do you guys ever think disney has teams that watch all these videos with disney theories and critiques and fan stuff and then just say hey, they said we should do this. we do it. and so it is made reality
@@suemccashland More like someone watch it by themselves, and then at the big writers´meeting they pull it out like "Hey, I have this idea I´ve been playing around with". And then others jump on it to cover the fact that they do´nt have anything themselves and then it just pappens.
Seriously, shouldn't the fact that they're going to die at the end be even MORE reason to write them as compelling, engaging characters? If the climax of your movie is built around the deaths of these characters, and you're hoping for people to be engaged in your narrative, then you're going to want them to be emotional about those deaths. That's your big moment, film. That's what everything's been leading up to, that's where whatever message you were trying to send hits home. So if you write the characters as throwaways because they're going to die in your climax... isn't the whole movie pretty much a throwaway?
I know this is a year-old comment but that's just SO RIGHT. There are plenty of stories where the main characters die at the end and they're memorable because what matters is that the character made an impact in that story and in that final moment, not that people at any point in writing or production thought "Well, they won't be around for a sequel, so it doesn't really matter if people care about them". When it comes to a story like this, where the creators have the foresight of characters existing within a story that continues without them, I can think of something like Boromir's death in the Lord of the Rings movies as an example: In the book, Boromir was more of a plot device than a character, but when adapted, he was humanized, made more dynamic, and given great dramatic moments to explain his motivation as a character, even though he was going to die in that same film and the series would still go on without him, these things were included so his death became an emotional heroic sacrifice of a main character rather than just that of a guy who was wrong the whole time and realized that in his last moments. This movie is full of characters who are also related to an overarching plot in some way, but they don't really feel like real people who grew or... cared about things. It basically just made me think "Wait, why was this a thing someone thought we needed a movie about? Is there going to be another movie about the 'many bothans' who died to bring Mon Mothma the second Death Star specs?"
Exactly! If your characters are going to die, that's MORE reason to write them well and make the audience care about them, so that their loss is felt more keenly and you walk away from the movie having actually FELT something. The overarching problem with Rogue One is that it's written almost exactly like a piece of fan fiction. It's all surface and no subtext, and we're given no reason at all to care about ANY of these characters. If that's truly intentional (and I think that's stupid, that obviously isn't true), that's just plain shit writing. Who would we ever want to read or watch something where the characters are intentionally written thinly? But I don't think that's true at all, I think the filmmakers are just not very good at their craft beyond visuals. Gareth Edwards' previous films - here's looking at you, Godzilla - exhibit the exact same problems as this one, and I don't understand why he was hired for this on the basis of that.
The point of the deaths, for me (I loved Rogue One) was that they died for a cause. Stories can have different foci. Sometimes it's characters. Sometimes it's plot. Rogue One is about the people. Not the characters, but what they stand for. Rogue One's characters aren't sympathetic because of their characterization. They're sympathetic because we're on their same team. Not because the movie says so, but because the struggle actually feels real and significant.
@@owlblocksdavid4955 But in order to make an entertaining movie you need something to care about. Regardless of what you said, these characters take 90% of screen times. If we are not going to care about them then what the point of watching the movie.
Yes, but I would have liked HISHE's version better where they just...escape and never get seen again. I mean, did Monsters University kill off everyone from Mike's and Sulley's Oozma Kappa fraternity to explain why we never saw them again? No, because it didn't need to do that. I know that isn't the best example because it is not the same kind of film as Rogue One, but you still get the gist of what I am talking about. November 8, 2019, 1:11pm
Haha ! I liked it, but that is because I purposefully set my mind to about 8 years old when I watch Star Wars movies. I agree with her analysis, which is very articulate and very good points for authors, but still I liked Rogue One, mostly because the other recent SW movies were really bad.
You listen to other people's opinions not to get convinced of something, but to get another angle on stuff and see if your opinion stand still or is a bit/a whole lot changed by that new angle...
@@dianeunderhill8131 You are like an abusive partner who is trying to convinve everyone that gaslighing is something else than it is. A Weird person you are.
"Loving something unconditionally doesn't mean you love it *more* . It just means you love it *sadder* ." This is probably the best quote I've stumbled across on the internet ever.
@@kenchun24 Yes, give me reasons why TLJ is good. And yes, I'm being serious because I'm doing a studyish on it and the entire Disney Star Wars era so far.
Arina Arinza he really likes customizing his toys. Leia was the Barbie that Java always wanted and he immediately bought her the most beautiful outfit he could find.
Everyone acts like it's not okay to like this movie AND like listening to funny people rip the shit out of it. I had fun with Rogue One but I also love hearing negative opinions like this video.
Applewood Bacon I'm the same way! I think this is my favorite SW movie at this point, but every point she raises is sound thinking. I've always enjoyed critical dissections of media, even stuff I love. :)
I loved Rogue One and I disagree with Jenny on a lot of points but I loved her video because she's hilarious and her ideas are pretty sound. I came away from the video more satisfied in my own opinions, because now that I've heard something contrary, I can be sure I really feel what I do.
Applewood Bacon Exactly!!! its like Mortal Kombat for me I know its an awful movie but I grew up with it and the games and so its just a nostalgic guilty pleasure, but I loved the honest trailer for it that basically shat all upon it with hilarious glory ... I liked Rogue One a lot I thought it was entertaining and gorgeous and i liked the actors but its admittedly shallow and choppy storytelling, I 100% agree and said this fact b4 i saw the vid, that its the Suicide Squad of the Star Wars Universe ... There was more potential than what we got in the final cut ... Gareth Edwards the director literally repeated all the things ppl hated about Godzilla in here ... but Ms Nicholson just ripped it a new asshole and I thought she was great ... but U know who Riz Ahmed is right???
Applewood Bacon Applewood Bacon Exactly!!! its like Mortal Kombat for me I know its an awful movie but I grew up with it and the games and so its just a nostalgic guilty pleasure, but I loved the honest trailer for it that basically shat all upon it with hilarious glory ... I liked Rogue One a lot I thought it was entertaining and gorgeous and i liked the actors but its admittedly shallow and choppy storytelling, I 100% agree and said this fact b4 i saw the vid, that its the Suicide Squad of the Star Wars Universe ... There was more potential than what we got in the final cut ... Gareth Edwards the director literally repeated all the things ppl hated about Godzilla in here ... but Ms Nicholson just ripped it a new asshole and I thought she was great ... but U know who Riz Ahmed is right???
Jenny - did you expect them to make use of all that WATER at the end with ... maybe ... some ships? Boats? Cool new vehicles in the battle? Ya know? With all that .....water just sitting there, doing nothing....???
:) I think the choice to have all the blue water void of things like....boats and fishing and .... snorkelers(?)....was a great VISUAL choice. It's .....great....visual storytelling. How about a couple of fishermen stumble into the scene and share some tasty sea shrimp with our one dimensional characters!!!
I discovered Jenny because I live near Evermore Park and my friend grew up in the town. Then I watched another because I thought she was cute. Then I started playing her in the background because her voice is soothing. Then I began arguing with her because I liked Rogue One. Then I realized I had grown as a character and that is something no one in Rogue One had experienced. Now I am having an existential crisis because I believe my character arc is complete and I’ll be written off my own show.
Nah, that would mean we were on a good show. We're on one of those shows where the writers ran out of ideas like 12 seasons ago, and everyone just repeats their same character arc over and over and over, while the existential threats escalate to such an outrageous scale that they become boring. Deep down everyone wishes the whole deal would just get cancelled finally, but there's still a few more dollars to be wrung out of this disaster, so we're stuck for at least another 20 seasons. Or at least until our contract runs out.
"it's starting to feel like all the interesting stuff in Rogue One happened before Rogue One - maybe we need a prequel to Rogue One! Nah, prequels are never any good' - JENNY! I'm here from the future to tell you that not only did they make a prequel, but it's legitimately incredible. SHE'S DONE IT AGAIN
The Rogue One prequel was indeed MUCH better than Rogue One, and the Rogue One character in the Rogue One prequel was the least interesting character in his own show.
No that's exactly what it was. She goes from giving no fucks, to finding her dad, and deciding that her dad couldn't die for nothing so she started giving fucks. It's not a terrible movie. It's just fan service and the writers trying to prove they've seen the magnificent seven, or if they want to be deep the seven samurai.
Clayton Berg Yeah. The movie is okay. It’s not Rise of Skywalker or Phantom Menace level bad but it isn’t nearly as good as Empire. It’s really fan service-y which I liked cuz I’m a Star Wars fan but from a neutral perspective the movie isn’t anything special
@@CrazyRiverOtter To give a slightly deeper defense(it by far my favorite of all the SW movies including the originals). The characters have almost no archs and are pretty shallow but this makes them better SW characters. All SW characters are shallow. And all of their archs are basically boring. Han Solo is rapey and his arch is the same bad boy arch as 100s of other movies. Ben's characters makes little sense. Palpatine is boring. Vadar's arch makes very little sense. Leia is actually kinda interesting but only a little. Luke follows a 100 other hero stories. The other sequals and prequels are just as bad. But I love SW in spite of that. I love the fantasy of being part of something that matters. I love the fantasy that caring about your friends above all else makes you strong. I love the idea of a universe where there is still mystery around every corner. SW movies need a lot of time for action. They need a lot of time for world building. Trying to jam in complex character development leaves you with characters that don't feel real. The characters in the other sequels feel like they are actors on a set not people in a war zone. When people with a job to do talk they are not talking about interpersonal issues or being very philosophical. Rogue one uses its character building time not to build complexity but to build relatability. I really really related to Jyn's father in particular. And the characters are vague enough that its easy to project yourself into their role. They also feel real. Like sure its a total fantasy universe that has no logical consistency but I feel like I could meet Jyn at a party tomorrow. I like movies with complex and unique characters too. But star wars is just a bad venue for them. Rogue One made the right choice at least for me of choosing to double down on where it shines.
@@peterisawesomeplease I kinda disagree with everything you're saying here though. I find that the good Star Wars movies, like Empire or Last Jedi actually take these characters and inject nuance and depth to them. Luke in both of those movies is very much not your typical hero. Rey's arc in TLJ isn't really the sort of arc a hero has. Kylo's arc in TLJ is wildly different, and his character is pretty unique as far as these big blockbuster movies go. How many villains can you think of that are this conflicted? Teetering on the edge between good and bad. He's not even a cliched anti-hero who is a "good" guy that does questionable things, and he's not just a sympathetic "bad" guy because he arguably helps the Resistance in that movie more than any other character besides Holdo, arguably making him a hero. It's an interesting dynamic. Rogue One is very unforgivable to me, for having complete cardboard cut-out characters. Every single character in this movie is so bland and boring. No one does anything interesting or exciting. They meander around and then die when the plot says it's time, and the movie trots Vader out so we don't get bored as the audience. It's almost insulting.
OH man, no I saw the Vader sequence as a horror moment, not a hero-worship moment. I felt like they wanted us to see him the way people saw him in '77. Certainly, without knowing who he was, it would have been confusing what his deal was, but since they know we all know who he is, Star Wars fan or not, I thought that sequence at the end was about reminding us how terrifying it is to have him on your tail.
Yup. When I was a kid watching ANH for the first time back in the 80s he was a towering monster, but as an adult watching the films again... I never got that feeling again. He was a tall dude with asthma who chokes people every now and then, and clumsily swatted at Obi-Wan with a saber thanks to 1970s-quality fight choreography. On the other hand the scene in R1 where he appears from the shadows and just smoothly, unflinchingly steamrolls over a hallway full of Rebels made me think he was actually intimidating again for the first time in roughly 25 years
not my theater, everyone cheered... it was weird tonally... maybe if someone we actually meet was in that room and about to die, maybe it would have had more weight, but it was just a bunch of randos/red-shirts, no connection, no conflicted feelings - so no need to feel a bit guilty for enjoying the awesome sequence agree with the guy trying to open the door... same thought crossed my mind, just pass it already.. especially since they kept cutting to it during the sequence
I saw it for this first time on DVD. I was nervous for the rebels even though I knew they wouldn't get caught until above Tatooine. Vader was menacing in Rogue One for sure.
I loved Rogue One, but you make good points. Somehow, the movie to me feels greater than the sum of its parts. I was never bored, I enjoyed every scene and was engaged in the story the whole time, and despite the characters not having much of an arc, I still found them interesting and likable.
CURSE YOU...Jordan! Cause it’s a Star Wars movie, and Star Wars movies are fun. Every Star Wars movie has stupid stuff in it, but they’re still fun space adventures.
It's also better than most other Star Wars films that are not the OT. Though, admittedly the bar is pretty low. The biggest problem with this film is they re-shot like 80% of it and you can very much tell.
I agree. I also liked that in Rogue One, the stakes are real and paramount. Even knowing that all the characters are going to die, the stakes weren't diminished, and the emotional impact was heightened because it shows how much the characters were willing to sacrifice for something they believed in .
I completely agree. Most of Jenny’s points are valid, but I still really enjoyed the movie, liked all the characters, was sad when the died, and thought the answer as to why the Death Star was so vulnerable was brilliant. I really love Rogue One despite its flaws
I feel the same way. These are good points, and the movie could have been better if addressed, but still love the soundtrack, setting, revolutionary themes, and atmosphere.
Jyn Erso = Rey - a young British woman who learned to survive on her own after being separated from her family as a child Cassian Andor = Poe Dameron - a badass Latino rebel whose best friend is a comic relief droid K-2SO = BB-8 - The comic relief droid. Will sell a fuckton of merchandise. Bodhi Rook = Finn - a nervous guy who defected from the Empire. Joins the other side and uses his knowledge to help them infiltrate the Empire's base. Saw Gerrera = Lor San Tekka - an old man played by an esteemed actor who lives on a desert planet surrounded by force worshippers. Provides a McGuffin in the form of a hologram before quickly being killed off. Galen Erso = Han Solo - a father figure who regrets his past decisions and dies as he tries to reconcile with his only child Orson Krennic = Kylo Ren - a bad guy in a cape who has a long history with the father figure Chirrut Îmwe = Maz Kanata - a non-Jedi force user with impaired eyes Baze Malbus = Chewbacca - the force user's big, hairy boyfriend. Carries a super powerful firearm. Death Troopers = Captain Phasma - a cool-looking stormtrooper uniform with no significance to the plot Tarkin = Snoke - a CGI villain that's there to order people around Darth Vader = Luke Skywalker - an iconic character that's barely in the movie but shows up at the very end and it's awesome edit: wow I was not expecting so much feedback on this. It was basically a joke about how people say the Force Awakens characters are the same as in ANH (Rey is Luke, Kylo Ren is Vader, Han Solo is Ben Kenobi, etc.) Yes there are some similarities but if you've seen the movie you know that these characters are different and have their own personalities.
That is not saying much...she didn't say it is as bad as rogue one, she said it gives the same SENSATION of everybody fanboying over something bad and you are left there mesmerized about what is happening
Eh, I might give the edge to ep. 3 (not that it's good or anything). I think Rogue one feels a lot better than the prequels because of its tone. Its darker, more mature, and consistent. You kind of get tricked into taking it seriously but overall its not an interesting movie. You wont care about the characters or story. It's boring, lacks soul. It's still better than 1 and 2, dont get me wrong, but it's not that much better.
Cameko Sam "liked the movie" if you agree with the criticism, then there must be parts you did not like or that is a total contradiction. unless, you "like" the criticisms but dont agree with them. so by like, you mean "the tone and tenor" ? but not necessarily the content in exactitude...
"We didn't learn anything new about...Princess Leia". Well, we did learn that she was telling an incredibly unbelievable lie to Darth Vader about being a diplomatic vessel. Previously, it would have been reasonable to assume that her ship was just flying flying through space when it was suddenly attacked by a Star Destroyer. Now, we know that her ship was present at a huge battle, and that Vader knows it too. Vader's response in ANH should have been a little more incredulous in the vein of "How dumb do you think I am?"
@@pierce4462 It makes A New Hope so much funnier, though. Like, the idea that Leia would even try that lie is hilarious. And the fact that Vader didn't go "Are you fucking kidding me?" is ridiculous.
@@calebmurphy9406 At least now we know why Vader look a little out of breath in his first scenes; it's because hes been cutting up a bunch guys trying to catch up to that USB drive. Plothole fixed!
It's WILD how badly the prequels broke the canon of the OT. Like, there's obvious stuff like the Jedi being the pre-eminent peace-keeping force in the galaxy then everybody forgets about them in 20ish years, there's smaller but still pretty obvious stuff like Leia remembering her died-in-childbirth mom, but like... Obi Wan doesn't remember R2. Just stuff like that, when you re-watch the OT, where you shake your head and say "the prequels are so fucking dumb." (Technically, sure, Rogue One isn't part of the prequels, but I consider all non-EU crap part of the same pile of canon-breaking garbage.)
Why would we learn something new about Leia? She isn't exactly a well constructed character with a thought out backstory. She was going to be Lukes love interest in the 2nd film before Lucas decided to make them brother and sister. The StarWars lore has worse ADHD than me.
I didn't see Jyn staying with the rebellion after her father died as her suddenly caring about the rebellion, I saw it as her wanting to redeem her father's legacy. Everyone just thought he was some evil guy that built weapons for the empire, she wanted to make sure his sabotage succeeded.
Character development is like action, it's only an asset if it's good. Finn went from a defector to a vegetable, Rey went from a scavenger to a Mary Sue. For the most part they were caricatures, more colorful but not richer than the R1 characters.
Dauz, this is a comment Daniel Robinson wrote that I feel nicely sums up many flaws in her arguments in this video. Be warned... its fairly long and has facts in it... Daniel Robinson20 hours ago Jyn’s mom gets shot standing up to the Empire despite the personal sacrifice of her own life (whole premise of the film). She doesn’t sacrifice herself so as not to be a hostage - she’s nowhere near Galen and comes back in an act of defiance and love (for her partner but also for her daughter - giving her life so Jyn has more time to escape). I’m not sure there’s a more noble sacrifice than dying to protect your children. Also, I’m pretty sure it’s stated in the film that Galen Erso devises the plan to build a weakness into the Death Star once he’s already been captured - not standing in the fields of his moisture farm. Saw Gerrera doesn’t sacrifice himself. He chooses death because he’s tired of fighting. This is partially explained in his schism from the Rebellion (his methods become more and more radical due to his fatigue with/exposure to the war to the point that he separates and leads his own militant guerrilla force) but also through his questionable methods (torture), obviously unstable demeanor, addiction to whatever gas is in that mask, etc. He’s a scarred victim of the rebellion against the Empire. I mean, you can practically see the relief on his face as the fallout from the blast overtakes him (there’s that theme of personal sacrifice - emotionally, physically, mentally, etc. - in the face of the Empire). What movie were you watching? Galen Erso is accidental collateral damage - if the entire movie was about that one battle - but it’s not. He sacrifices his family, his freedom, the lives of his staff, and eventually his own life (via leaking the plans to the Death Star) in a personal sacrifice to see the Death Star destroyed. His whole story is one of personal sacrifice in the face of the Empire (there’s that theme again). Chirrut Îmwe’s sacrifice is so obvious I can’t even believe I’m having to type this. An entire subtheme of the whole Star Wars universe is the battle between faith (in the Force) versus the material (the war machine of the Empire - manifested most notably in the Death Star). This movie takes place years after Darth Vader hunted down and killed virtually all of the Jedi (faith) leaving only the Empire’s war machine to rule over the people of the galaxy. The Force is all but extinct in the minds of the people (as represented partially by the dilapidated Temple of the Whills, which is - big surprise - destroyed by the Death Star). Chirrut Îmwe represents a member of the few dying embers of people that still truly believe in the Force. His faith in the Force to protect him and allow him to reach the switch, which is a crucial part of how the Death Star plans get off the planet, is symbolic of the return of a good Force wielder (Luke) who arrives shortly after this sacrifice (getting the Death Star plans) is made. His death is totally altruistic (like someone else named Obi-Wan Kenobi in A New Hope) and he doesn’t need to prevent it because he’s finally become “one” with the Force. Jesus - do you know anything about Star Wars at all? Baze Malbus is a combination of Saw and Chirrut, He’s a grizzled vet who’s tired of fighting and nearly dead inside after witnessing the death of (presumably) his only friend. He too has finally witnessed the power of the Force and, despite earlier expressing his doubts about his friend’s beliefs, finally begins to believe in the greater, everlasting power of the Force. Despite not being Force sensitive, this renewed faith gives him the energy to make a last stand against the attacking Imperial forces. He’s not killed “accidentally - he’s in a warzone! Baze, like everyone above, has accepted that his life is forfeit as part of the price for the return of faith in good (the Jedi and the Force) to the galaxy. Again, there’s that personal sacrifice theme that the whole movie is about. “Bodhi sends out a “radio call” and is killed by a seemingly unrelated bomb…” WHAT?! Bodhi Rook is a former Imperial pilot who defected at the behest of Galen Erso to bring knowledge of the Death Star’s weakness to the Rebellion. He endures torture by Saw Gerrera and then single-handedly connects the ship’s communicator in the midst of heavy combat (his terror at the ground combat likely due to the fact that he’s a pilot) to complete the missions and send the transmission of the Death Star plans to the Rebellion. Not only that, as a pretty skittish and unconfident character he musters the confidence to perform the above action AND lead the forces on the landing pad. The “seemingly unrelated bomb” is a grenade tossed in the now-obvious Rebel occupied ship that just infiltrated the planet by Imperial forces attacking that ship/landing pad. His sacrifice, as a defected pilot whose bravery under fire is ultimately responsible for the Death Star plans even getting off the planet is probably the most genuine of all in the context of the Rogue One story. The fact that you just wrote that off tells me you truly have absolutely no understanding of the movie you watched. Jyn and Cassian die because they, along with K-2SO took on the most dangerous part of the mission - infiltrating the Imperial base and getting the Death Star plans. If, in your mind, the whole movie was about running from the base to the ship then yes, I guess they did die because they were “too late”. However, if on the other hand, you’re an intelligent human being who (as you imply you do) understand how story and character arcs work, then you’d be able to clearly identify their sacrifice (along with K-2SO) is securing those plans despite the high probability that they would not survive doing so. The fact that this has to be pointed out to you is just galling. Not liking this movie for legit reason (which I'm sure there are) is totally fine. But these endless hate videos full of dimwitted BS from people who present this ridiculous air of condescension are just ridiculous. Please inform yourself, even just a little, before dropping a 30-ish minute commentary full of half-truths and lazy hate. I can’t be arsed to address any of the rest of your terrible video, sorry.
Huge Nerd This comment here shutdowns anything/everything she had/has to say about this movie. She's not a "Star Wars fan" she's some girl who's seen TFA twice and thinks she knows everything about Star Wars and film making apparently.
Soldiers just die... nothing heroic about it, sometimes they just die, i actually liked that about the third act. Like it's been said by I think Gareth Edwards, it is sort of a war movie. I understand your need for everyone to go out in a blaze of glory, but i guess the idea was that the foot soldiers, they just die, its lack of meaning gives it meaning, if that makes sense.
Except in war movies usually there's build-up to the deaths of the main cast and they go out doing something heroic, yes even if their role is technically "foot soldier." Dying randomly is left for the red-shirts we know nothing about. Or if your argument was having several members of the main cast die so randomly was meant to make it realistic...well, I'll call that out. This is still trying to be a Star Wars movie in so many ways, and that's certainly not realistic. But even then, perhaps we'd care more about the deaths of these characters if there was more to them. Only ones I cared about were K2SO (he does die holding off troops for the sake of his allies, thus giving him a heroic death), and Chirrut, which is largely due to Donnie Yen's charisma and the fact that someone was there to mourn. Baze and Bodi? Couldn't be bothered to care, their deaths felt so random and inconsequential, and we hardly knew them. Jyn and Cassian? I found myself shrugging my shoulders as the two leads died...two leads whose personalities can be summed up as "grim and dour" and that's about it.
I'm not saying it's meant to be realistic, it's a space fantasy after all, at least the universe it is in, I'm just saying that i think they tried to make something artsy. I didn't really care about the characters either except for the 2 you mentioned, but i'm fine with that, we knew we were getting the opening crawl of episode IV, as an action movie, and it was just that. It's not perfect, but i still prefer it to VII
bandras87 Seriously? Artsy? This is pretty corporate, especially with the sheer amount of fan service. If anything, I suspect them agreeing to have everyone die was more due to trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and lower the odds of criticism, especially with Lcasfilm being a Disney subsidiary. And if you seriously think not developing characters is okay because we "knew [what] we were getting" based on ANH's crawl...well I'm just baffled. That's horribly lazy. If anyting, it should be imperitive to get us to care about these people so we feel some emotional weight beyond knowing what happens in ANH.
Sean Thompson What? The original EU story was in the game Dark Forces, where Kyle Katarn infiltrates a base and steals the plans without a scratch (it was the first level).
Před 7 lety+1
J DMC That's not the story I'm talking about, go look death star plans up on wookiepedia. There's a girl that is like jyn and there's a battle at the end where they all die just like Rogue One.
"This video is just you mocking other peoples opinions! Which is wrong!" -Star Wars fans "You liked the Last Jedi? You're objectively wrong!" -Also Star Wars fans.
Way to go piling people's criticism into one vague statement. It's not wrong to like TLJ because you can't be wrong about a feeling or a preference. However, it's wrong to claim that TLJ has good and consistent plot because it doesn't.
Tanninen93 But, here’s the thing, they didn’t say that. They’re saying that Star Wars fans are doing the exact thing (in a way less informed and polite way) that Jenny is here by mocking people’s opinions if they like TLJ. They’re trying to get across that Star Wars fans are being hypocritical about their opinions toward Rogue One vs others opinions about The Last Jedi. People can enjoy something for other reasons than the ones you listed.
Maybe Rogue One would have been better if Jyn Erso stumbled upon the Millennium Falcon for some reason and then flew it expertly without any training, and then maybe used the Force without anyone showing her how the Force works exactly. Maybe that would have been better. But hey, BB8 is so cute!
TFA is a coming of age story about Rey discovering who she really is. RO is a war movie. You can't expect happy-go-lucky likeable characters to populate a war movie. RO adds to A New Hope whereas TFA replicates it. We're all entitled to our opinion. There are thousands of "TFA sucks" videos which all make very valid points.
El Escritor Secreto I agree Rogue one is one of the best Star Wars movies yet. It beats the trilogies and that awful excuse of a Star Wars original number 7 that made me almost not see rogue one. However rogue one beat my expectations. It didn't have that unnecessary comedy, and awful plot lines, or cameos just for the SAKE of cameos that ruin movies *cough the. Force awakens cough*. Sure there wasn't action in every dang scene but I think we can all agree that the Han Solo scene with Rey running away from various pirates and aliens was a bad idea that gave nothing to the movie. This movie had feeling and much more nostalgia that just fit perfectly. The world building made me awestruck and I couldn't look away from the detail, they worked really hard on it. People criticize that it's dark, but it's REAL and believable and lets me really understand the characters on a personal level. I'm sorry but I just can't relate to Rey. Her powers are automatically better than a sith whose been training for a long time? She fights for a cause that's really not done anything to help her, and her cliché lines make her a fairy tale character. Jyn Urso however had a backstory I could believe, courage that was internal that she had that didn't rely on the force but her own persistence and hard work. I shipped Cassian and Jyn more than Rey and Finn and they never once had to speak a line stating or announcing it like Finn did numerous times in a humorous manner, they didn't need to the acting and body language was so strong(and they may not even mean that way just showing how bad 7 was). And to finish off my rant Rogue one tied together the movies in a way that made me feel like I was watching one of the original trilogies. I understand that rogue one didn't have much room to be original considering the story lines but even it was more original than the force awakens. Death planet really? I felt real nostalgia and love for this movie I felt in the original trilogy. So to sum it up Rogue one did what most Hollywood remakes and spin offs fail at, making it not FEEL like a remake.
Well said, Savannah. The critics don't understand the tone. It's like people conveniently forgot about the dark moments in Empire Strikes Back. I feel that in time, the detractors will look back and realize that Rogue One is a near-perfect addition to the Star Wars Universe. Maybe sooner depending on whether Ep.8 turns out good or not.
I saw an interview with the writers who addressed that Vader moment at the end. Over the years (like 39 of them) they felt Vader became cute, and cuddly. Showing up as plush toys and on cereal boxes, and they felt they needed to make him super scary and mean and evil again, so they did.
Known as LEGO, I have heard. Strong it is, the desire to merchandise. But what your characters become, you may not know. Redirect their arcs, you must, yes.... until all the money, you have.
The way to do that would have been to focus on the people he killed and the cruelty of his actions. Imagine the shot shifting from Vader being a badass to a dying young rebel with a agonizing look on his face, and ending the shot there. That would be way sadder, but it would also cast Vader more like the space nazi he was written as.
Which demonstrates part of the problem with the film. I get wanting to make Vader scary, but this wasn't the film to do it, because *it wasn't a film about Vader*. Rebels tried to do that, and it worked because Vader had a major role (in season 2). Obi-Wan Kenobi kind of did that, although they had to have Obi-Wan beat him, which downplayed it a bit. But Rogue One isn't about Vader - he is in two scenes, arguably in the first to justify the second. Rogue One is a film made by a bunch of people who had ideas about what would be neat to see in a Star Wars, and then tried to throw them together into a film without worrying too much about themes, character arcs, or even a genre.
This is like watching Cinema Sins without any humour. Rogue One has its flaws if you're picky, but it was still awesome, great story, great tone and strong characters. Definitely better than A New Hope 2, sorry I mean Force Awakens.
She does indeed, however I would disagree. I thought the story behind the Death Stars weakness was great. The Actor who played Krennic was brilliant and the characters obsession with recognition rather than power/strength causing his downfall was great. K2SO was funny without being annoying. Showing the Rebellion in a different light with actual flaws was refreshing. The coming together of Rogue One was believable after their denial from the rebellion and the journey they had been on before heading to Scariff. Plenty more I loved about the film, however I was left confused as to why Cassian didn't go for Krennic after he changed his mind about Galen in the Sniper scene. I haven't got a problem if you didn't like it, who cares! It just annoys me to see a video like this, dissecting a film without any real critical analysis, highlighting points you could literally apply to any film.
Plus, I'm not slagging off Force Awakens, it's an enjoyable film, I want to hate it as it is literally A New Hope 2, the same story line in a different timeline. Rogue One has given me hope that Disney may offer something new with Episode 8. If we get Empire Strikes Back for Episode 8 I will be mad. Rey learns the ways of the force from Luke only to abandon him to rescue Finn from Kylo Renn with the final scene revealing who her parents are. Hahaha, I will be MAD if this happens.
Totally agree. Obi-Wan Kenobi was always meant to die in the first movie, but he was still developed. Yeah...that is probably the worst argument I've ever heard too.
It also a huge cliche that characters in tv shows get developed in the episode they die in so the audience members feels something when they die. So yeah that argument is as stupid as it gets.
You always develop characters that are meant to die if their deaths are meant to feel impactful to the viewer. You dont develop redshirts and mooks because their deaths serve different purpose.
After my friend and I saw Rouge 1 we were trying to talk about it and were having to refer to the charters as the pilot, not a jedi, not a mandalorian, and the robot.
This means nothing about the quality of the movie or the characters, it just means they don't say their names aloud often. I think Baze is only referred to once.
Dank is right. A lot of movies you probably don't remember all of the characters names because it is not that important to. Think about a movie you have seen recently (Not Rouge 1) and try to remember the main characters names. Unless they had a unique name, like Marty McFly or Luke Skywalker, or a name that gets repeated a lot, you probably will not remember the characters name.
davlmt no it's actually something different tfa was pretty much a new hope with a new Luke a new Ben a new Han Solo type character and then Kylo ren a bad guy
no, more like it isnt cringy to watch a mary sue go in a "obviously she is going to win" adventure. on the other hand, we have more grounded characters, the best visuals and a good war story
Usually I agree at least to some degree with your points but to me this video seemed very nitpickey. I'm not going to try and say it was a perfect movie by any means but a lot of the points you bring up don't really point to flaws in the movie. "It wasn't THAT dark". Okay. What's the point here. Is darkness necessary for a good movie? "No one really had a heroic sacrifice". Again, is that necessary for a good movie? Plenty of war movies have characters die like nothing because that's what war is like. I figured it was trying to emulate that. Characters don't need big heroic finales because in war that is actually kind of unrealistic. "None of the characters really had any arcs". When the story only takes place over like basically two or three days your characters are going to seem static. I don't think that's really necessarily a bad thing. Also, some of them did have a bit of an arc but you kind of arbitrarily described them in a way to make it seem like they didn't. I don't know. If you had done a normal review then maybe it would have been fine but the way you worded that title makes it seem like "if you liked Rogue One then you're wrong and here's why..."
Green Pulsar Character arcs aren't something that is objectively part of a good movie. It's just something that many people seem to appreciate. If I don't mind characters that don't have much of an arc then there is nothing wrong with saying that I thought it was good. I thought that the characters staying relatively static did not retract from my movie watching experience. What's wrong with saying that?
Metaphysical Resonance The points she brought up are points made by other people as too why they liked the movie. She's addressing other people's points so I don't know if you can say she's nitpicking.
While the first few points are fair, I think excusing a lack of character development on the time setting is bogus. A film could take place in real time and should still usually have character development. While movies don't have rules set in stone on how to make them good, there really are very few great movies that don't have character arcs for the leads and the ones that don't would usually have to be doing so in a very deliberate way.
I agree completely with what was said here, but I also think there's more to the movie than that. It showed how these people who knew they were going to die wanted better for others, and it showed a side of the rebellion that isn't the fame filled one we saw, a side of it that wasn't the people who got the recognition in this universe. It showed the side of the rebellion that gave hope despite that in the star wars universe, it never really got recognized. I think something about that is just so cruel and beautiful and sad. These people were the driving force behind the rebellion, even though they didn't really get credit for that. They died unceremoniously and nobody was there to worship them for all they did, beside each other. I think it was really a story that needed to be told.
Yeah I agree. I also don't think that the characters were boring or bland. They were rebels, resigned to their fate. When you dedicate your life to ONE goal, you tend to end up one track-minded. Just because theu aren't happy or emotional or quirky doesn't make em bad characters.
I think her notions of what constitutes a "character arc" are a little overly-simplistic. There are more ways for someone to develop than "goes from being bad to being good" so the argument that Jyn's character didn't evolve at all just because she was "good" at the end but didn't start the movie out so evil that she would let a child die in the street is a weak one. Characters did change. From believing that the world is screwed and there is no point in trying to fix it to fighting to try and make it better. From thinking things are hopeless to having hope. From putting their trust in no one to trusting someone.From being ashamed of everything you've done in your life to doing something you are proud of. And yes the primary narrative focused on Jyn so some of them - like Bohdi- started their shift off screen. Maybe we've watched too much Star Wars if we think that "character arc" must mean "started out good became evil" or "started out evil and became good"- I mean I know that changes that literal happen a LOT in Star Wars! but still- people aren't supposed to be that binary, it's abnormal and I think it's a sign of crappy writing if THAT is your arc.People normally evolve in slightly more nuanced ways.
@@felixincikli7577 it’s basically like how we have often viewed soldiers in bulk, especially those in a rebellion in an insurgency. You know, statistics.. as shitty as that is. Even if they have legacies, their last missions are “just that” if they’re dedicated to their mission. They can be real talented or dedicated special types, but I like the idea that not everyone who IS a character HAS to be a magical character like most of Star Wars. Think of it as telling a snippet of the story of rogue squadron, instead of them all just being introduced and killed immediately in the next scene. So we get a picture of some soldiers that may be a bit more elite, but not mega special over a course of one major mission where the odds are truly against their success and that even if they succeed, most won’t make it. It kinda makes them professionals... the movie could be 4 hours long if we wanted to shoehorn in the whole teams back stories and deeper arcs. At the end of the day.....Heist movies aren’t known for their deep character arcs... they’re supposed to be fun, even if everyone dies in the end. - chakspur
I agree with everything in this (so far) 5-comment thread: it’s a great story of thankless sacrifice that was just poorly told. I do like her idea of all of the characters making it to the end as a mostly intact team-wordlessly appreciating each other, which no one else had done or would do, as they die together at the end of that world. That would’ve made it a much better ending, methinks
Rafael Scatena...you realize the modern Star Wars movies under Disney's guiding hand threw out the majority of canon. Even Star Wars doesn't like Star Wars!! (Not that modern Star Trek is much better obviously.)
Listen, you can have your opinion just like everyone else, but don't go saying that I'm wrong for liking it. Your opinion isn't more vaild than any one elses. I fucking loved it.
Some Swedish cunt I feel that a lot of the movie's critics are acting exactly like that. It's so annoying. I'm not saying shit about them hating on it or feeling disappointed, so why do they act like their opinion is fact.
You can love a mediocre movie with shallow characters, that won't make it a well-written masterpiece. If you're willing to overlook its problems or don't even see them, that's fine, but her opinion is more valid because she brought up solid points, showed a good understanding of the movie's structural problems and explained the nonsensical reasoning behind the reasons people liked the movie, whereas your response to the critique is "I fucking loved it".
DPadGamer I was actually referencing that frustrating baby triceratops train mission in Banjo Tooie but I thought I better keep it general lest I lose people
Ahh, I understand. I'd have been completely happy if you had gone into a whole tangent about how dumb that part was. Then again... I have a Banjo-Kazooie plush... so I might be biased.
Exhaust ports yes, but for the amount of time and effort that went into the Death Star, an exhaust port so flawed that a single round of torpedos going straight down causes the entire thing to explode DOES merit an explanation.
@Liam McKenna There was an explanation, it was ray shielded, heavily guarded and so small that it was an impossible shot. All of the other pilots at the briefing at the look of "what The he'll is wrong with this crazy old guy" when he told them the plan and the size of the exhaust port, even Leia had that look. The only reason Luke made the shot was because of the force and he was one of the very few people left in the galaxy at that point with the force who wasn't part of the Empire.
I feel like they need someone like Jenny in the writers room. They have test screenings after the movie is made. Why not run the script by more people who aren't just "yes" men.
Personally, I have always gone with. Run your script/plot against a bunch of table top roleplayers. Does it make sense to them? Do they see any stupid exploits in the rules you create and point out "why doesn't the character do that again"? As per usual, Disney ruin a concept with play by numbers and design by committee
what am i doing here? ive never seen any of the star wars movies, i know nothing about the star wars universe, and i loosely understand the plot of the movies, but i still am watching an in depth, 25 minute review of rouge one.
I like watching analysis of things that I'm not very invested in, because I learn more about criticism. Then it's easier for me to critique things I do care about.
That one Empire officer who keeps begging to see the Death Star in action, like a little boy telling you to shoot a bird, I don't remember whether he was the one named Krenic, but I do remember how his story ends. On his hands and knees on the beach, as the war rages around him, and he looks up. The Death Star fills the whole sky, and its gun is slowly turning ... toward him. That wasn't very much of the movie, but I felt a lot of fear, schadenfreude and satisfaction at that comeuppance story, and you can bet I remember feeling something at this movie.
This movie was overrated. If you ask anybody to name one of the member of rouge one squad that is not Jin Erso or the droid they wont be able to do it if you put a goddam gun in their head.
@@hakasims why do you need to remember them? Its war? Every solider isnt going to have the most epic story. What was special about Caparzo? Cpt. Hamill, SGT. Hill, Wardaddy? The literal monument to The Unknown Soldier is about the sacrifice. These men and women gave their lives for a cause you just associate them as Heroes because you associate Storm Troopers as the bad guys whom they themselves are greatly nameless
Your dry, snarky sense of sarcastic humor really is just fantastic. You are severely undersubbed here. You really should have like 200K subs with the type of talent you have with your arguments.
thenewkidd I agree, in fact I'd love to see her partnering up with other famous youtubers like Screen Junkies, Schmoes Know, The Nostalgia Critic, Cinemasins/wins, Red Letter Media, Mr Sunday Movies, etc.
+TheLineCutter agreed, quality content takes time to push out and I'd rather have 1 - 2 good vids every month or so than a series steeped in mediocrity. been subbed to Jenny's channel since a little below the 30k mark and I'd hate for her channel to get dumbed down because of some need to go big fast
Instead of ridiculing you like the rest of the posts, I'll just address the content in order: The movie did have a lot of characters, some static. But that's your issue, not the movie. You're looking for a movie story to be developed like the previous Star Wars movies. Star Wars has previously been about developing a story and characters over a 3 movie arc. This is a contained companion movie that runs directly into settings up the original trilogy, there isn't time to develop all characters completely or have some giant single movie story arc. It's basically a setup of action and tension leading into the original trilogy. Saw Gerrera has an arc from the Clone Wars to Rogue One. Rogue One is showing the end of his arc, how he's become a broken pseudo Vader type character through his actions. His voice is a physical reminder of just how bad he ended up. Chirrut Imwe was the attachment from Rogue One to the force, showing the will of the force directly in a character. It also expands on the mythology showing that there were non-Jedi characters heavily involved in the worship of the force and protecting the sacred places (the Kyber mines) of the force. It also lends into A New Hope by showing how the last remnants of people believing in the force had been essentially whittled down to being street crazies. And provided much needed mysticism and comedy for a dark movie. Baze Malbus (Chirrut's friend) certainly had an arc. It mentions him once having been the most devoted member to the force, and by the end of the movie we see him return to that belief. Cassian's beginning of the movie is not a Han-Shot-First action, that's COMPLETELY dropping context. Han had a gun pointed at him and Greedo said he was going to kill him and get the reward. That's called self defense. Why this new generation has some sort of abortion on the grasp of moral context on this subject (and many others) is beyond me. Get it right, Han was is self defense, it was completely moral, and completely rational. Cassian's action was far different, showing how the Rebel movement is having their spies do things that really take a toll on them (which consequently leads into the end of Rogue One where those who HAVE done things they didn't like are ready to sacrifice their lives on a suicide mission). It wasn't inconsistent, it was showing the entire mentality of the Rebel spies and how it affects them in the end. This wasn't easily missed. Jyn certainly had an arc. The baby saving was an reminder of seeing her own self being destroyed by this fight between the empire and rebellion. She turns from having been heavily involved during being raised as a fighter by Saw, to being turned away from the fight by Saw, to seeing it destroy her life and having no outlet, to being thrust back into it, and finally accepting it. This is another example of you wanting to see an complete arc during the movie, while not recognizing where the character started in their arc before. You're listing off what comprises a action movie like it's part of "settled science" movie school rules. What 1977 movie would NOT have been made if people kept to that stance? This is an action segment leading INTO the original trilogy. It certainly had tension without needing to have deep emotional character connection, and tension is MUCH more than just physical exertion (list any number of dozens of other movie concepts of tension, like spy movies, for example).Nevermind, I stopped responding to the points, I couldn't take it anymore...
The movie isn't bad because of having a lot of characters, some being static. It's her issue that she was looking for a singular movie to follow the exact format of a 3 movie saga in development as well as follow film school and story standards. Weak? You have to go the route of saying if the movie was something it never was billed to be (just a film in general, complete separated from Star Wars, completely disregarding the context of the story of the heist) to try to make a point, YOU'RE doing the weak thoughts. It wasn't mediocre in what it was or what it was made for, it's a companion movie to the original trilogy. I suppose you'd want a half hour of exposition introducing Darth Vader in Rogue One? That's idiotic, and totally evading the entire point of the movie to try to criticize it in any way you can find. I'm guessing you'd just up and say the Clone Wars movie or show, or Rebels, each episode is weak because it makes no sense as a stand alone without because it didn't show previous character development? They developed characters just fine in the film, for those that needed it. Are you suggesting they didn't do it at all? Take off your Plinkett baseball cap and try to look for excuses elsewhere. Oh FFS... Poor you, how dare you have to watch something else as part of a long story to understand another story?!?!?!?! How AWFUL! Here's a hint, a lot of big franchises throw in context references or sub-stories in different places. Don't like it? Then why the hell are you even watching Star Wars? You're bordering on proving to be just a troll about now. I understand her points just fine, that's why I disagreed with them. Your ridiculing about how I don't understand arcs is just proof of how lacking of confidence you are in your stance. If you have to resort to that, and to resort in the constant disregarding of context about what this movie was in order to attack it, you make the argument yourself as to how full of it you really are. The only sad thing about this franchise are the armchair Plinkett's who think they've got it all figured out because they watched a video or two of how film school and writers standards MUST be followed otherwise a movie is crap. Monkeys going around repeating things as if they were "intelligent" because of memorization of standards. Blocked, troll.
I agree immensely, but I actually have to disagree with something: the characters actually were very interesting. They were all enjoyable onscreen, and I personally cared about them a great deal. But now so many people are going around saying they had no character and people are believing it unquestioningly for fear of being told that they have low standards. It was Hitler who actually said that if you repeat a lie enough, it becomes truth. Jyn and Cassian both had arcs, but the other characters did not, and that is fine. Not every character needs to change and evolve throughout a film. They just need to add to the movie with their character, and their character was excellent. I am very much sick of these arbitrary rules of filmmaking developed by what I imagine were a bunch of rich, snobbish film critics from the 50s trying to decide for everyone else what makes a good movie.
"The movie isn't bad because of having a lot of characters, some being static. It's her issue that she was looking for a singular movie to follow the exact format of a 3 movie saga in development as well as follow film school and story standards." Sigh. No, she wasn't. She was simply looking for what you wanted, I wanted, and everyone wanted: A GOOD FILM. A good film with well rounded characters with strong character arcs. Its amusing that you write "some static" when talking about the characters, as if that's something every film needs or its natural to be there. Here's the thing, if a character is "static" in the script you either: A. Rewrite it to give it an arc or B. Fire the screenwriter and hire one that can write. (...and I can't believe you wrote "as well as follow film school and story standards". SERIOUSLY? You're proving my points for me. Its like you realise this film is bad but don't want to admit it) Like a lot of people, you're giving this weak film a pass because it has Star Wars things in it. A singular film should have well drawn characters. A singular film should have an engaging, interesting story. If it doesn't, then its a mediocre piece of film making. Putting the words STAR WARS on the poster doesn't change that (although Disney hopes that will distract you to the point where you gloss over how badly constructed it is) Here's an example for you- Guardians of the Galaxy (I think its a fair comparison). A 2 hour film about a group of misfits banding together against all odds. Main difference? Guardians had well written characters, each on their own interesting, clearly defined paths. They also bonded as a team, I'd go as far to say that they felt like a family by the end. I felt something when Groot died. Why did I feel NOTHING when the Rogue One characters died? Because the writing in this film is piss poor, that's why. Its lifeless, characterless and grey. The characters go nowhere, don't feel 3 dimensional. Its all flat. They are just kind of...there. Filling space. The lines all sound like they were written for the trailer. Guardians proved that it could be done in about the same running time. Here's what I imagined happened with the reshoots. Disney came in, saw the rough cut, realised it was a 4/10 at best, and ordered Edwards to cram in as many references to the older films as possible to try to cover up how wafer thin it is. Guess what? It worked! The factory rumbles on. I expect you blocked me because you recognise the truth in what I'm saying and don't want to read more. Or maybe you're just happy with mediocre. Fair enough. I am not.
"what you wanted, I wanted, and everyone wanted...A good film with well rounded characters with strong character arcs. " There is not one definition of a good film. This isn't Mad Men, where the focus is on character studies and development. And I didn't come into this movie expecting or wanting that. I wanted a good film, and I got one. Not a great film, a good film. Nevertheless, people always want different things out of movies, which is why there are these kinds of discussions. I agree with all of the criticisms about the film, but still enjoyed it. Why I enjoyed it: It made me actually care about the Star Wars universe. I grew up with Star Wars, but it never felt real or made me care much about it. This helped that and made me actually want to re-watch everything. - It showed the darker side of the rebellion (killing informants, secretly ordering a murder without clear information) - People in the empire are just people doing their 9-5 (childhood flashback of Jyn) - The Death Star is terrifying (destruction of the city, which granted isn't quite needed for the story, when Krennic see's the Death Star on the horizon) - A much needed gritty war section in the franchise from the perspective of non-force users (making force users more exciting and terrifying) - The "luck" involved and tension revolved around the plans that lead well into A New Hope - Connecting Anakin's bad dad jokes to Darth Vader. Now the transition feels real. For me, the characters were good enough to make me feel the urgency of the story. I've found Rogue One to be the best Star Wars film. No, it's not a great movie, but IMHO none of the Star Wars films are great or approach anywhere near my top 10. But it was enjoyable
When I started watching Rogue One, I felt like I had been teleported into a movie that was already playing for 40 minutes. The whole thing felt so rushed. I liked K2SO, though. He deserved a better movie.
Ok, it wasn't just me. I felt like I was having a stroke watching everything. Stuff just happened and none of it made sense. I had to keep pausing it and checking with the friend I was watching it with to see if I understood the plot!
@@JackedThor-so Basically same here. It was almost like the movie was too fast paced and like the reviewer says, it never actually developed any of it's main characters, or if it did have them do something, it would contradict that action later in the movie. It was just a random collection of characters that I never believed in their motivations or actions and none of them had actual depth. The writing was let's just get from point A to B to C so we can get to all the flying and explosions at the end.
How do you live? When you speak you give me anxiety. It's as if you where to open up your fridge an saw a apple, and started tripping about how that apple got there. "Like what's the story arc behind this Apple?"
At 20:45 she asks, "You know why you're bored right now?". Well I was bored because her delivery of facts was so devoid of emotional content that I suddenly found myself reaching for a razor blade and heading towards my wrist. Also, could she get *slightly* more condescending to people who liked the film because I really didn't think she made herself clear on that ;). Was a masterpiece? Nah. Was it entertaining as all hell? Yeah. The action did, for me at least, have emotional impact because of the context of the greater SW universe and I did feel attachment to three of characters (K2SO, Jyn, and Chirrut). Plus it was extremely well choreographed and had all the hallmarks of great Star Wars fighting (pace, camera angles, cool ships). For some reason the film just entertained me and, I believe, in her mind that makes me "primordial pond scum". But I was at least happy pond scum so there is that.
Me too actually, though I definitely think the OT is superior to anything that's come since. I'd still like to see Plinkett style reviews of it though, because it does have its problems.
If they're a main character that is driving the story, yes, they do. It's the bare minimum to make an audience care about a character's plight. Otherwise you end up really not caring about all the characters, because they're just cardboard cutouts of roles to fill and it's really boring to watch, which is exactly what happened with Rogue One.
Kaleido Motoring I dunno, I think Stolen's right. A character can be engaging and well realized without necessarily having to have a distinct change in characterization from one end of the film to the other. Rogue One was definitely TRYING to be that type of film though, and while it worked for me I get why it didn't for others.
For a supporting character, yes. Supporting cast can just be foils that have a consistent behavior (in fact, it's often problematic narratively if they are inconsistent in any way) but when even your main characters lack any sort of forward momentum, the story falls flat on it's face. It's fine to not flesh out every character, especially in the short time frame of a single movie, but when even Jyn's arc is flimsy and barely exists, it really makes it difficult to care about her motivation...
Kaleido Motoring there's a difference between fleshing a character out and giving them an arc. A character being fleshed out means they feel like a rounded, living, multifaceted person. An arc is just how that person changes over a series of events. Some really great stories involve characters who either don't change in the face of events, actively *refuse* to change, or change in a way that's deliberately not a gradual build.
No, they don't. Darth Vader did not have an "arc" in A New Hope. The droids never have an "arc". Chewbacca? Arc-less. Boba Fett? Please. I think perhaps people misuse the term. It was a good movie, and I challenge people to apply these same stupid metrics to A New Hope and maybe one or two will stop circle jerking enough to enjoy a fucking movie.
So I gather that the main argument here is that the characters in Rogue One don't matter and because the characters don't matter then nothing they do matters and if nothing they do matters then the movie fails. That argument makes sense theoretically in a screenwriting textbook kind of way, but this movie worked for me despite not conforming at face value to classical screenwriting rules of character development. I found myself invested deeply in what the characters were doing, more so that who the individual characters were or why they were doing it or whether they would survive. The main character in Rogue One wasn't an individual like Jyn or Cassian; the main character was the Rebel Alliance, a collective whose cause as a viewer I grew more and more deeply invested in as the movie progressed. So it wasn't the survival of individuals like Jyn or Cassian that I was invested in, it was the success of the Rebellion. In this context the action scenes weren't meaningless pyrotechnics or eye candy -- they were a depiction of a valiant struggle against a powerful opponent, the Galactic Empire. It is a classic underdog faceoff. And the stakes this time couldn't be higher. If the Rebellion fails, then Princess Leia won't get the Death Star plans and then Luke won't meet Ben or Han and he won't blow up the Death Star and our collective childhood memory of Star Wars won't come to pass, much as if Marty McFly failed to get his parents to kiss at the Enchantment Under the Sea dance triggering the chain of events that would lead to his non-existence. Rogue One is exciting in so much as we are simultaneously witnessing the chain of events that lead to the glorious birth of Star Wars that is "A New Hope", and the presentation itself shows us how in jeopardy this glorious event was to not happening. "A New Hope" not happening? That is the most unthinkable of possibilities, yet in Rogue One we are presented with the agonizing suspense over how such a possibility may or may not play out, similar to when Marty's fingers begin to vanish during the dance. So if you don't find yourself invested in the overarching conflict of the Rebellion against the Empire towards the goal of realizing the events we know as "A New Hope" and are instead looking for meaning in the stories of the individual characters, you'll walk away from Rogue One disappointed.
Chuck Kahn the only difenrece between Marty and the cast of R1 is that I legit care for Marty. I didn't give any fuck of any of the characters from the movie, just because it look intense dosn't it is intence. Just look at the phantom menace
But why do you care for Marty. What is Marty's character arc? To get that Toyota 4x4? George McFly has a character arc, but Marty is the same person at the beginning of the movie as he is at the end of the movie, only now he has a truck. This is the problem with having a checklist of scriptwriting textbook "rules" for movies -- we see some empty tick boxes that oblige us to conclude that a movie we just enjoyed must be unworthy. "Back to the Future" is a great movie, but not because Marty is a great character with an amazing arc, so the textbook rules fall apart here. If the checklist fails, throw out the checklist, not the movie! Rogue One was intense because of what was at stake. It wasn't just action for action's sake. It was action in service of a tangible goal: for the Rebel Alliance to score a victory against the formidably oppressive Galactic Empire. Jyn, Cassian and the other individual Rebels didn't have amazing character arcs because they were all in service to the arc of the Rebel Alliance, which begins the movie disorganized and hopeless and ends the movie triumphant and hopeful. Just as the arc-light Marty exists to help George fulfill his arc, so too do Jyn and company exist to fulfill the arc of the Rebellion. And no, they didn't get 4x4's at the end of the movie.
i can say more things about marty macfly than any of the cast from rogue one (yes even characters that i legit like like the droid, and the assian daredevil)
NekoMouser it's always good to think critically and i agreed to some things she said, at least to an extent. but she's overanalysing a simple movie. a simple movie that is a spin off for crying out loud
This is what we like to call "nitpicking". It's when people blow small issues that may not even be issues out of proportion rather than finding a real reason the movie is bad.
yeah except the movie she wants would suck because we couldn't get to the point of the film. Let her just watch films for film class instead of missing the point of a good star wars story.
+Karmagheden "The fans should ignore the haters who talk down to them." Yes, they should. Did they? Are they? No, they're not. They're disliking and spilling their spaghetti after this video triggered them, leaving comments. That's not ignoring. You aren't following your own advice, either.
"i hope i explained myself well in this very long video" ... Jenny today: here's a 4 hour video on a defunct star wars hotel! ...so this is where it started...this is where Jenny learned she can do longer videos and people will still watch
Thank you! I thought I was going insane. So many people say that this movie is better than Empire strikes Back, I just don't know what they are seeing that I'm not seeing, I was trying to be optimistic but I was quite underwhelmed by Rogue One.
Bonzulac I've seen a lot of people claiming Rogue One is the best film in the Star Wars series but each to their own I guess, enjoy what you want, but I haven't seen any compelling arguments backing up that opinion.
echo 5 I'd be to each their own if people stopped comparing it to TFA and enjoyed for the standalone war movie it is. That and if CZcams's agenda didn't put this on tending
Someone will always match your opinion, it doesn't mean you're right tho. If most people like it and it is a global success you are wrong... Numbers don't lie, even though it is still subjective. Anyways, you are entitled to dislike it.
People who grow up in war torn environments tend not to be touchy feelly... most who didn't enjoy this movie, didn't enjoy it mostly because of preconceptions. Unlike the 'Saga' movies, R1 is not a character lead movie, but a story lead one. I love R1 and hope we get more like it and less of those that only supply fan service.
I am excited for the Han Solo movie but like you said, it will of course be completely focused on Han Solo unlike this movie which was a tat of everything
LookzA Subtle fan service... not in-your-face gimmicky fan service, there's a difference. It was still its own movie, which is more than can be said about TFA (as much as I liked TFA).
Having boring characters is the second worst movie sin behind being a boring movie ... the sequels have big flaws but they are not boring ... Rogue One simply is a big waste of my precious time, more than any of the sequels ... and I rarely say that about most movies I consider to be bad movies, that says A LOT.
right? my friend and I were nerding out over that. We were laughing over Vader's punny scene on mustafar, and then that final scene. who knew two minutes would be worth the price of admission
Yes. lets have film studios bore us to death with another terrible movie only to have people exclaim "Whoa totally worth because of that one 5 minute scene". That's not gonna send the wrong message at all. It's bad enough that people think this was good; saying one, completely unrelated scene can make up for a terrible movie is a whole new level of retardation.
I really liked that there were no heroic deaths. Like in actual war, you don’t get that, and they gave their lives in a massive battle, each with their own objectives.
What really attracted me to the final act of Rogue One wasn't that it was a great action sequence or tonally dark. It simply reinforced the basic concept of war, which is a lot of moving pieces working simultaneously to overcome the opponent. The entire movie was moving from one step to the next and each character achieved their intended objective at the expense of their own life. No one in the original trilogy mentions the Rebels that lost their lives to get the plans. None of them are remembered, and that's the brutal reality of war. The final scene with Darth Vader, instead of filling me with glee, filled me with terror. I watched, knowing the plans would eventually get to Leia, but wondering how many more lives Vader would take before that happened. The most important moment in the movie for me was when the Rebel passed the plans through the doorway in the hopes that it would lead to the downfall of the Empire. He knew he was already dead, but he still had one more move to make, and we see the payoff of this one simple action in the original trilogy.
Totally agree with this comment, but it would have been nice if the main characters had more arcs to them so their deaths mattered to the viewer contrasted to how little their deaths will be/are remembered. Which could have made a point about how all these other side characters probably also had their own personal struggles, and family and etc. but they're all taken away by war and dedication to a cause they will never know wether or not succeeds.
We never found out how Han or Chewie knew each other or why they care so much about each other, nor do we know anything about Lando's past. Does it matter if the onscreen relationship works?
Jenny wants movies to tell everything, leaving absolutely nothing to your imagination or emotion. All must be revealed on camera! Otherwise, it's a bad movie! Also, no Star Wars film can have depressed or damaged characters, or if it does then Jenny demands a full on-screen explanation! And nobody can die randomly during a battle! Realism is so important. But also, character arcs and other script tropes are really important. So be realistic and logical, and also super cliche. Script doctor when.
And what makes TFA better? Lol, Finn is an interesting character with an arc, but Poe is a good pilot. Oh? Really? That's fucking it. He was a character that should have died from the beginning, he had no importance and was boring. (Okay, so he DID blow up Death Star 3, but cmon, 3rd time anyone can do it. Rey was also the most annoying Mary Sue Character ever. Her power makes no sense and she has no flaws, she also doesn't have an arc lmao.
davlmt The only thing mentioned is that they got the death Star plans. Rogue one expands it and the crawl barely says anything about the plot. Force awakens is completely copied though
I'll grant you Jyn Erso's mom. Forest Whitaker dies because his character has become half robot breathing with the assistance of a manual ventilator. He's a tired old man who's given everything to a cause that no longer wants him, and witnessing the Death Star's power, he feels he's lost the war and no longer wants to run. Galen Erso is purposefully assassinated by the Rebels. The whole reason the XWing squadron is there is to take him out. Chirrut dies because the Force willed it. He's a blind man putting his faith in the Force to guide him to his task. The Force allowed him to fulfill his purpose, to flip the switch so the communication could go out and the fleet would be ready to receive the plans. He died because he knew that was the will of the Force and accepted it. I'll concede to Baze, his retaliation does seem half hearted. Though his death is not accidental. He's a target. He also took out 4 guys, you act like that's nothing. I'll concede to that Bohdi dies from a random grenade but the guy is in the center of cross fire between rebels and storm troopers. Jyn and Cassian die because their only means of escape is destroyed. They say when they land the ship they come in on is their only escape route. Most if not all other landing pads are under fire and sucombing to imperial control. This isn't a heist movie or a group of trained spies trying to sneak into and out of a facility undetected. They're a band of rebel soldiers trying to steal a document from a facility that they have very little information on. They say it before they leave Yavin "we're making this up as we go along". That is the challenge, to find a way to overcome each obstacle as they discover it. The whole downloading onto physical media makes sense because they're there to retrieve information. You think the empire would allow them the opportunity to send it remotely? They're forced to carry it that way to not give the empire the chance to Jam their signals and not give away the location of the rebel base which could be tracked through relayed telecommunications. This isn't even me stretching anything, this makes sense in a context of information displacement. You said action only matters if you're invested in the characters involved. That's not true. The opening of Saving Private Ryan is an amazing action sequence where you don't know any or the characters, who will live or die. The action is good because you feel like you're there and watching something spectacular. It feels real and tangible. You can't tell me how to like an action sequence. Just because flaming arrows aren't as effective as Hollywood would have me beleive doesn't make the opening battle in Gladiator less awesome. I've seen the movie once. I like the movie. I agree it's not perfect. I agree it's pandering to nostalgia. I agree the first and second act feel rushed and choppy. I agree that the characters lack development. I agree that it feels like Jyn isn't properly motivated and that her original arc has been heavily modified if not completely destroyed. I agree that Tarkin's CGI is some of the best CGI that's still stuck in the uncanny valley and that Leia's CGI is a little worse. A lot of people keep complaining about the characters. I get it. They're empty. I don't care. People love Boba Fett. WHY?! He's in the original trilogy for a total of maybe 15 minutes? Or Porkins, people fucking love Porkins. Why?! There's no arc or development for him. I don't watch Star Wars for the characters. I watch it because I like the universe they exist in. I like the action and the stories. I like the Lore. If I want characters, I'll watch Star Trek. The show, not the movies. I don't care about characters. I liked the movie. I liked that we saw Jeda, and Vader's Castle on Mustafar. I loved Tarkin even if I could tell he was CGI. I loved the AT-ATs making an appearance. I liked that it tied into Episode IV. I liked that it answered the literal plot hole about the Death Star. I like the concept of a planetary shield. I like that the rebels won their objective while losing the battle. It doesn't make me wrong. My neck is real itchy all of a sudden...
OldManSpock he explained he doesn't care about characters much ... why are u trying to summarize this girls video ? And talk about how u care about characters ? Just stfu dude let him like the movie
In a way, I call it good world building if you give us characters that don't have much character development in comparison to the OT. These characters were good, likeable, and cool, but they weren't Luke Skywalker.. and it opens up your mind to the idea that there are people who exist in this universe.. do what they need to do to get by with their llives.. survive, etc. It makes you realize the universe has less defined characters that still play a role, you see everyone's contribution to the downfall of the Death Star, not just from the main characters perspective only.
Great reply. I agree the movie isn't perfect but I thought the characters were pretty decently done in the context of what this movie is i.e. a snapshot of a piece of SW lore that fills in some information from the original trilogy more fully. TBH, when I next watch ANH it will be with very different eyes and a new sense of gravitas after watching R1. To me, that suggests that R1 succeeded in accomplishing it's goals as a film.
"Just because you love something unconditionally, doesn't mean you love it more. It just means you love it sadder." "What... what are you trying to say, Mom?"
wow I watched a bit and have to say I disagree massively. Their deaths are incidental to make it realistic. This isn't a film where characters live through ridiculous moments via plot shields. They die when they're supposed to. It's called making it believable.
A Miller how is a character's death lazy writing? I don't think you understand my point. Don't reply because I don't want to see this video ever again.
OF COURSE they were all going to die, that's not the point. She wasn't calling for characters to "live through ridiculous moments via plot shields", she was asking for characters to CARE about. That there deaths were "incidental" is exactly the point, they were incidental but not consequential because there was no emotional core or connection to the characters. You're ascribing some sort of nuance to this movie which simply isn't there. It was a painfully obvious, dull, safe film where the only thing which could have redeemed it was character development and it fell on it's face completely.
Imagine if Glory ended with Robert E. Lee, flanked by Ku Klux Klan soldiers, menacingly walking toward the heroes down a narrow hallway in Fort Wagner where all the doors are locked so they can't escape, then he draws his saber and casually kills the heroes off one by one while a foreboding orchestral rendition of Dixie plays and the audience cheers.
I never realized the KKK had their own infantry division...did they wear their robes into battle? That just seems like a terrible idea. Maybe they had battle robes like the Jedi in CW then.
@@countmarkula1993 So if you count the various massacres they committed as battles then kinda. Though the robes they wear in movies and parades and stuff isn't exactly accurate to the time period.
It's weird watching this again knowing what we know now about Rouge One - about how they basically built the movie we ended up seeing from the scraps of a much messier and more disorganized story that everyone realized was bad and no one knew how to fix.
My take on Chirrut: In a universe where the Jedi are no more, he is a priest who preaches the Force. He has likely spent his lifetime doing so, even though he has never seen proof of its existence, and is considered by many to be a bit loopy because of it. It is only in the final battle, when he surrenders all his defense to nothing but his chant, and yet is able to walk across an active battle field unscathed to the switch that must be thrown, that he finally obtains the proof that the Force truly exists. This is why his death is both triumphant and beautiful. At the same time he demonstrates something else. He trained in the Force all on his own. No Jedi Master for an instructor. No books. Just him and his faith. The Force is something to be reckoned with, even without training, which becomes important in The Force Awakens and Last Jedi.
So well put. This is also the reason I loved this character. He's evidence that the light side of the Force will live on in good people even if it's not formalized like the Jedi have done.
except for all the other times in the movie that he uses the force to help him, like when he fights the stormtroopers and shoots a TIE Fighter by sensing it lol
I haven't seen this movie, but I get the feeling that it's cast is made up entirely of boba/jango fetts, in other words, "characters" that look kinda cool, but don't actually say or do anything important.
VietnamD0820 Everytime someone tells me something about the movie the less I want to see it in theaters:c Oh well... Yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me 🎤
This was great! I didn't hate or even dislike Rogue One, I just didn't like it, and I don't really get why it's so popular among people who hate the other Disney Star Wars movies. There were things I liked about it, but overall it just didn't work. My biggest problem was one you talked about for some length, which is where the "eight dirty words" of fiction came into play: "I don't care what happens to these people." Not a single one of these characters was compelling or interesting or memorable enough for me to care that they died, not even K2-SO. I didn't even remember most of their names. So when they died (which I expected, because otherwise such big shots of the Rebel Alliance would surely have been in the OT), I was just like, "oh look, they all died." *in Jerry Seinfeld voice* "That's a shame."
I know this is a 2 year old comment, but I feel like offering a thought. I think that part of what makes it more appealing to people who don't like the new trilogy is that it's a return to the Rebellion era, and it feels kind of like an movie of something from the Expanded Universe.
@@VulpesVvardenfell Could be! And I know a lot of people who don't like the ST specifically dislike how they used the OT characters (which I personally loved), whereas R1 only had a few (pointless) cameos of them. So I guess sequel haters feel it wasn't as much of a disservice to them.
Yeah... I hadn't watched the movie since it came out, and all through this video I was like "oh yeah I sort of remember that being in the movie". It wasn't bad I guess but it was pretty unmemorable.
it actually would have been really great if they all got out safe, then Darth Vader killed them all at the end. They could have put the extra time spent on death scenes making the characters better
Or hey, if they want to push the Vader angle, have them carry off the plan successfully except they left too many clues behind, have that happen early in the movie, and then Vader goes on this long quest of hunting them all down one by one. They get to shove Vader into a bunch of scenes, they get to flesh out the characters more instead of having them be chess pieces to be moved from one place to another, and also that sounds more exciting and less pointless than the stupid "we've got no plan, let's go steal the thing" that works because movie.
You've been criticizing this movie since it came out. We get it. It didn't live up to your expectations. I love your videos, but these rogue one rants (especially on twitter) are getting pretty annoying. Just enjoy the movie for what it is and stop bashing it for what it isn't. EVERYONE IS SO CRITICAL
HunterChan she's free to say whatever the hell she wants. It's her channel, and her twitter page. If it bothers you that she's using her critical faculties in a way you don't like, you could always....ignore it?
The Ponderer So you just said that i'm also entitled to my opinion? Okay! Well I already expressed my opinion... and if you don't like it you could just ignore it.. right? Thats what you said right?
The guy Cassian shot was injured. Cassian knew he wasn't going to escape, and if the Imperials caught him, he might rat Cassian out. So, he killed him. It's a nice bit of characterization that shows how he will do anything for the rebellion, even if it is something awful like killing an injured man who just helped you. When he meets Jyn and the others, he starts to let go of that original mentality when he refrains from shooting Jyn's dad.
Rafael Scatena Aside from Rey, and it's not so original plot, is there any other reason why you don't like it? Because I'm tired of hearing those be the ONLY reasons why people despise that movie to no end!
Boring character maybe, why does Rey defeat a trainned jedi, where she learned to use the force, why lukes hiddin? how she know so many things piloting fixing starships fighting with lightsaber, hand to hand combat, why did kylo ren defects? Isnt han solo too old to hunt dangerous aliens? How the 1st order could re-establish itself so fast. How did they built starkiller base and no one notice? Why is the resistance numbers so small? How could Rey resist mind probe? Did Rey had trainning? Does she know Lule? Why she likes the rebellion? Why her family left her there? What is her story? How can Kylo reist a blaster shot? Isnt Rey usong too much force for someone who does not know what the force is? I would be ok with it if the explainned so. Isnt boring that she sucedes in all challenges without effort? 2 characters who want to scape the quest is not a exciting movie.
That is one thing I made a long discussion with my friends about. In an ensemble movie like Rouge One you don't need character arcs. You need TRAITS. Something that separates them. Makes them unique. They don't need an arc to be well told characters. Chirrut and Baze are good examples. We want to know more about them but we don't need to. We understand them and they stand out.
I don't think they need character arcs, but they do need characters. We were spoiled with Guardians of the Galaxy where the whole cast had one and it was heartfelt.
No. Raiders of the Lost Ark is a very good example along with just about any James Bond film, Amadeus, The Silence of the Lambs and Chinatown. She clearly has an obsession with character arc, but very little understanding regarding why characters have an arc. The best way to think of it is like this: Character Arc = Story, No Character Arc = Situation A situation is a problem or predicament with an obvious and direct solution. A situation does not reveal character; it tests problem-solving skills. A situation has no (or few) subplots, twists or complications. A situation begins and ends in the same emotional space that it started in. (Jeff Lyons - Writer) Rogue One has a fairly simple problem/situation which is that some rebels need to get plans for the Death Star. That is it! Now set the characters on their journey and solve the problem.
I was accused of hating Star Wars and fun in general because I dared to ask questions like "why was Darth Vader in this movie?" or "why couldn't they have less characters so there'd be more time to actually get to know them?". Fanboys ruin everything and I'm sure when the next movie comes out a good portion of them will be like "yeah, I never really liked Rogue One /that/ much". It's weird that people feel this obligation to like every single thing about an IP or else they'll lose their bragging rights...? I guess to call themselves a fan.
"why couldn't they have less characters so there'd be more time to actually get to know them?". Because then it'd be a different movie, some of us actually like the movie as it is.
And that's exactly what worries me. This movie was mediocre at best but it's getting praised all over so it's only gonna get worse from here in terms of Star Wars movies. We already have a movie devoid of character motivation or actual characters. The movies might not end up as offensive as the prequels but they're going to be bland as hell which in some ways is worse.
Also of course it would be a different movie if you changed something, that's such a stupid thing to bring up. You know what else changed the movie? All the reshoots they did inbetween the trailer and the movie being released.
Literally all I liked or could even fucking remember about this film was the Vader murdering people in that hall scene, and that's it, and while that scene was exhilirating and all like... that it was the only part i liked or even remembered is sad. I was listening to this today and was like ??? krennic??? I literally forgot who the main bad guy was.
I couldn't understand why Screen Junkies Dan Murrell and Andy Signore disliked the movie, but you have eloquently and concisely explained their point of view better then their combined efforts.
just saying, not every character needs an arc, that draws out the story to a point of standstill, and therefore bores the audience. you need static characters to balance out the dynamic characters, and you need flat characters to balance the round, otherwise the main character(s) don't stand out enough. while agree there may have been too many flat or static characters, I think you're way too critical of that point.
also, this movie isn't supposed to be about characters in the first place. None of these people originally existed in the first movies, and have no relevance to everything else. The movie was about the story of how the Rebel Alliance got the plans to the Death Star leading up to a New Hope, its not about Jyn, or Bodi, or anyone else. The character development is left for the trilogy movies, where its about the Skywalker family, and those characters.
By 'arc', we're not talking about long drawn out backstories, we're talking about interactions that happen during the plot of the movie (perhaps one that is a little less tedious) that build the characters at the same time. It seems crazy but somehow other movies manage to do this. Have characters and plot at the same time. Crazy thought isn't it? As she said, we know what the movie is about, we know how it ends. Who fucking cares unless there are characters that you believe in though? Did you purposely not listen to what she said?
NDfor SPDadsdas I did, and I just happen to disagree. Yes movies can have both, but, not all movies are made to be that way. Deadpool is not supposed to.have a good storyline, but has a fantastic character. I also like to point out that the way they did it is much more realistic, these people have known.each other for a total of what, a few days at most. And she's saying they need to have this team dynamic, and they need to change. Well, in the course of a few days, no one is going to change or do much, so it wouldn't make any sense for them to be all buddy buddy. That was a big issue of suicide squad, they had one, ONE good moment together, and they're attached like they've been friends forever, its dumb
And Deadpool was worse off as a movie, as a result. She's saying the characters actually have to have beliefs and motivations that cause them to interact in an entertaining way that illuminates who they are and we can identify with 1 or more of them. This happens in some movies that span a single day. In this movie no-one is doing much or changing in the course of a few days. That's the problem.
NDfor SPDadsdas I just have to disagree. I don't think a movie is better or worse off with sacrifices like that. Deadpool is as good as it could ever be, and its because it focused on his character, if there was a super intense plot, it takes away from the character, and who he is supposed to be in the first place. Rogue one to me didn't lose much in terms of being a good movie by not having character arcs. I think it made perfect sense the way it was presented, and actually brought a sense of realism that TFA didn't have in terms of characters, the fact that they aren't going to change for someone they just met in the middle of a war. They do everything to get the job done to.survive, and that's the beauty of it for me. I actually didn't like how Jyn started to have this romance kind of thing, it was forced, and it took away from what the movie is
Hey Jenny. don't worry about that like-dislike ratio for this video. I'm a huge Star Wars fan, and I really liked this movie. I've seen it three times now! But you bring up some really good points and it really makes me think, and I believe that that's the point of your video. You bring up the things that people (especially HAAARD core Star Wars fans) are too afraid to question. I've liked all of your previous videos and I'm glad you didn’t just jump on the bandwagon and say 'It's the best movie ever omg so cool!' and I respect you for that. Good for you. Keep it up! That's what Star Wars is all about! People TALKING about it! Which is exactly what you are doing. And for all you people that are going to reply to this comment, this is literally the first CZcams comment I've EVER made in my entire life, so don't expect me to ever read or reply to any of your comments to this. Jenny is an honest Star Wars fan. Fuck all uh yall, and may the Force be with you. Always.
"Krennic had a bit of an arc, in that he started out interesting, and then got less interesting." Lol! As someone who didn't like Rogue One ask that much this critique was pretty spot on. But this line was the one that got me.
"Loving something unconditionally doesn't mean you love it more. It just means you love it sadder."
JelloApocalypse llll
JelloApocalypse what are you guys doing her😑
PHRASING!
Billy Weed phrasing? how else could that comment be taken lol
Sleepy Pup Are we really not doing phrasing anymore?
All the characters have an arc. They all started the movie alive and were dead by the end.
SeventhSwell hahahahaha. Thumbs up!
an arc for the ages. movie perfection right there. 10/10
TBH due to Star Wars knowledge and how all of the characters introduced were never referenced in any other Star Wars movie they were good as dead since the beginning of the movie.
yeah, same aspie182. like, with the prequels you do hope they get better and better with each new installment since its the guy who started it all, of course he still wasnt the one that made them great. while the new ones, you know exactly why theyre being made. because they have the rights. thats it. they are being made not because they have a story to tell but to sell.
*aspie182*
I'd say Rogue One falls even more flat than prequel trilogy.
The main problem is that with this type of movie they were going for you have to develop characters and go for drama.
But Rogue One forgot that characters should have personalities.
You know you fucked up with characters' personalities when the character with most personality is a robot.
Rogue One could've been great if filmed to be a drama.
But what we've got is more like a Michael Bay movie.
Rogue One is Transformers of Star Wars franchise. Mainly focused on battles and explosions, robots have more personality than human counterparts, special effects are the most important thing.
But even compared to Transformers Rogue One falls flat because Transformers can be mindless fun. Rogue One is just mindless fanservice. Half of the references in Rogue One were completely unnecessary.
Jenny circa. 2016: A 24 minute video is so long…
Jenny circa. 2019: Makes an almost 2 hour feature length film about a published fan fiction.
I’ve literally watched her pandora theme park video like 6 times, sometimes as somewhat background noise; meaning I’ve watched that video for 6 hours. Genuinely can’t stand rewatching most 2 hour movies with actual plots
Madison Hollinsworth monkey brain: watches Shawshank redemption 30 times
Intellectual: watches theme park review for 6 hours
@@TC-mp7vn Was the watching literal or the 6 times?
Maybe you figuratively watched it literally 6 times.
Stacy Hamilton I’ll use whichever words I want regardless of if they actually work in context.
@@TC-mp7vn I've noticed. I'm literally going to unsubscribe from your comments. (not literally).
I'm 3 years late to mention that since Disney+ is doing a Cassian and K2 series, we are literally getting a prequel to Rogue One. You must be some kind or oracle.
I came here to say this, but knew it in my heart it had already been said
@@lucs028
Sameee.
do you guys ever think disney has teams that watch all these videos with disney theories and critiques and fan stuff and then just say hey, they said we should do this. we do it. and so it is made reality
@@suemccashland More like someone watch it by themselves, and then at the big writers´meeting they pull it out like "Hey, I have this idea I´ve been playing around with". And then others jump on it to cover the fact that they do´nt have anything themselves and then it just pappens.
Agreed. 😂
“Maybe we need a prequel to rogue one” actually ended being one of the best things to come out of Disney Star Wars is irony in its finest
For real. Andor is fire.
Andor!
Such a good series
Came here to say this. Her video aged well!
I found it really boring.@@brianwill5929
Seriously, shouldn't the fact that they're going to die at the end be even MORE reason to write them as compelling, engaging characters? If the climax of your movie is built around the deaths of these characters, and you're hoping for people to be engaged in your narrative, then you're going to want them to be emotional about those deaths. That's your big moment, film. That's what everything's been leading up to, that's where whatever message you were trying to send hits home. So if you write the characters as throwaways because they're going to die in your climax... isn't the whole movie pretty much a throwaway?
I know this is a year-old comment but that's just SO RIGHT. There are plenty of stories where the main characters die at the end and they're memorable because what matters is that the character made an impact in that story and in that final moment, not that people at any point in writing or production thought "Well, they won't be around for a sequel, so it doesn't really matter if people care about them".
When it comes to a story like this, where the creators have the foresight of characters existing within a story that continues without them, I can think of something like Boromir's death in the Lord of the Rings movies as an example: In the book, Boromir was more of a plot device than a character, but when adapted, he was humanized, made more dynamic, and given great dramatic moments to explain his motivation as a character, even though he was going to die in that same film and the series would still go on without him, these things were included so his death became an emotional heroic sacrifice of a main character rather than just that of a guy who was wrong the whole time and realized that in his last moments.
This movie is full of characters who are also related to an overarching plot in some way, but they don't really feel like real people who grew or... cared about things. It basically just made me think "Wait, why was this a thing someone thought we needed a movie about? Is there going to be another movie about the 'many bothans' who died to bring Mon Mothma the second Death Star specs?"
Exactly! If your characters are going to die, that's MORE reason to write them well and make the audience care about them, so that their loss is felt more keenly and you walk away from the movie having actually FELT something. The overarching problem with Rogue One is that it's written almost exactly like a piece of fan fiction. It's all surface and no subtext, and we're given no reason at all to care about ANY of these characters. If that's truly intentional (and I think that's stupid, that obviously isn't true), that's just plain shit writing. Who would we ever want to read or watch something where the characters are intentionally written thinly? But I don't think that's true at all, I think the filmmakers are just not very good at their craft beyond visuals. Gareth Edwards' previous films - here's looking at you, Godzilla - exhibit the exact same problems as this one, and I don't understand why he was hired for this on the basis of that.
The point of the deaths, for me (I loved Rogue One) was that they died for a cause. Stories can have different foci. Sometimes it's characters. Sometimes it's plot. Rogue One is about the people. Not the characters, but what they stand for. Rogue One's characters aren't sympathetic because of their characterization. They're sympathetic because we're on their same team. Not because the movie says so, but because the struggle actually feels real and significant.
@@owlblocksdavid4955 But in order to make an entertaining movie you need something to care about. Regardless of what you said, these characters take 90% of screen times. If we are not going to care about them then what the point of watching the movie.
Yes, but I would have liked HISHE's version better where they just...escape and never get seen again. I mean, did Monsters University kill off everyone from Mike's and Sulley's Oozma Kappa fraternity to explain why we never saw them again? No, because it didn't need to do that. I know that isn't the best example because it is not the same kind of film as Rogue One, but you still get the gist of what I am talking about. November 8, 2019, 1:11pm
Wait why am I watching someone convince me I don't like something I actually like.
Haha ! I liked it, but that is because I purposefully set my mind to about 8 years old when I watch Star Wars movies. I agree with her analysis, which is very articulate and very good points for authors, but still I liked Rogue One, mostly because the other recent SW movies were really bad.
Jack Kehrli
Maybe, deep down, you don't really like it. If you truly liked it, other people's opinions probably shouldn't bother you as much
Welcome to youtube. Broadcast yourself, broadcast your opinions on whatever you want. Opinion varies. Watch it or not.
You listen to other people's opinions not to get convinced of something, but to get another angle on stuff and see if your opinion stand still or is a bit/a whole lot changed by that new angle...
Because you need to be educated.
I've been retconned into not enjoying a movie that I actually enjoyed
Underrated comment
I think the term you're looking for is Gaslit. You liked it, and after watching her you don't.
@@dianeunderhill8131 I think the correct term is persuaded, not gaslit
@@dianeunderhill8131 how dare you gaslight us into believing your misuse of gaslight.
@@dianeunderhill8131 You are like an abusive partner who is trying to convinve everyone that gaslighing is something else than it is. A Weird person you are.
"Loving something unconditionally doesn't mean you love it *more* . It just means you love it *sadder* ." This is probably the best quote I've stumbled across on the internet ever.
That's sarcasm, right? Right? >_>
this had me wheezing. truly a quote to remember
Yeah, it's so good, definitely gonna use it for my online debates against TLJ Torches & Pitchforks mob.
@@kenchun24 Yes, give me reasons why TLJ is good. And yes, I'm being serious because I'm doing a studyish on it and the entire Disney Star Wars era so far.
@@somerandompersonidk2272 Watch Jenny's video on it
K-2S0's death was pretty impacting... I fucking loved that robot 😭
Napzie same
Napzie I found myself morning the robot more then human characters
...said no-one ever.
NDfor SPDadsdas Nope. Said about 3 people. Cooler than 3CPO
NDfor SPDadsdas It's funny how you exclude people of a different opinion simply to try and make yours definite
No one believes me when I tell them about Jabba's gay Southern uncle.
LatinxGoticx good ol zero
@Tom Ffrench it's jokes
@Tom Ffrench Why did he have Leia in that gold bikini then?
Arina Arinza he really likes customizing his toys. Leia was the Barbie that Java always wanted and he immediately bought her the most beautiful outfit he could find.
Does that come up a lot?
"... Jabba's gay southern uncle."
*leans in from kitchen: You talking about Zero?
Everyone acts like it's not okay to like this movie AND like listening to funny people rip the shit out of it. I had fun with Rogue One but I also love hearing negative opinions like this video.
Applewood Bacon I'm the same way! I think this is my favorite SW movie at this point, but every point she raises is sound thinking. I've always enjoyed critical dissections of media, even stuff I love. :)
"everyone"
I loved Rogue One and I disagree with Jenny on a lot of points but I loved her video because she's hilarious and her ideas are pretty sound. I came away from the video more satisfied in my own opinions, because now that I've heard something contrary, I can be sure I really feel what I do.
Applewood Bacon Exactly!!! its like Mortal Kombat for me I know its an awful movie but I grew up with it and the games and so its just a nostalgic guilty pleasure, but I loved the honest trailer for it that basically shat all upon it with hilarious glory ... I liked Rogue One a lot I thought it was entertaining and gorgeous and i liked the actors but its admittedly shallow and choppy storytelling, I 100% agree and said this fact b4 i saw the vid, that its the Suicide Squad of the Star Wars Universe ... There was more potential than what we got in the final cut ... Gareth Edwards the director literally repeated all the things ppl hated about Godzilla in here ... but Ms Nicholson just ripped it a new asshole and I thought she was great ... but U know who Riz Ahmed is right???
Applewood Bacon Applewood Bacon Exactly!!! its like Mortal Kombat for me I know its an awful movie but I grew up with it and the games and so its just a nostalgic guilty pleasure, but I loved the honest trailer for it that basically shat all upon it with hilarious glory ... I liked Rogue One a lot I thought it was entertaining and gorgeous and i liked the actors but its admittedly shallow and choppy storytelling, I 100% agree and said this fact b4 i saw the vid, that its the Suicide Squad of the Star Wars Universe ... There was more potential than what we got in the final cut ... Gareth Edwards the director literally repeated all the things ppl hated about Godzilla in here ... but Ms Nicholson just ripped it a new asshole and I thought she was great ... but U know who Riz Ahmed is right???
Jenny - did you expect them to make use of all that WATER at the end with ... maybe ... some ships? Boats? Cool new vehicles in the battle? Ya know? With all that .....water just sitting there, doing nothing....???
Ben M We have this base on an island so our main defensive vehicles are giant heavy things that walk on legs.
:) I think the choice to have all the blue water void of things like....boats and fishing and .... snorkelers(?)....was a great VISUAL choice. It's .....great....visual storytelling.
How about a couple of fishermen stumble into the scene and share some tasty sea shrimp with our one dimensional characters!!!
Great analysis of the "ending," BTW.
We need to get work on your Civil War movie, ASAP.
To be fair, they never made any sense on land either.
+Jenny Nicholson AKA Giant Robo Camels.
I discovered Jenny because I live near Evermore Park and my friend grew up in the town. Then I watched another because I thought she was cute. Then I started playing her in the background because her voice is soothing. Then I began arguing with her because I liked Rogue One. Then I realized I had grown as a character and that is something no one in Rogue One had experienced. Now I am having an existential crisis because I believe my character arc is complete and I’ll be written off my own show.
That’s rough buddy.
This comment had a better plot than Rogue One and was some great writing. Also, her Evermore Park video was phenomenal.
Weirdly relatable.
Nah, that would mean we were on a good show. We're on one of those shows where the writers ran out of ideas like 12 seasons ago, and everyone just repeats their same character arc over and over and over, while the existential threats escalate to such an outrageous scale that they become boring. Deep down everyone wishes the whole deal would just get cancelled finally, but there's still a few more dollars to be wrung out of this disaster, so we're stuck for at least another 20 seasons. Or at least until our contract runs out.
@@Nofixdahdress oh Grey’s Anatomy. We’re on Grey’s Anatomy.
"it's starting to feel like all the interesting stuff in Rogue One happened before Rogue One - maybe we need a prequel to Rogue One! Nah, prequels are never any good' - JENNY! I'm here from the future to tell you that not only did they make a prequel, but it's legitimately incredible. SHE'S DONE IT AGAIN
The Rogue One prequel was indeed MUCH better than Rogue One, and the Rogue One character in the Rogue One prequel was the least interesting character in his own show.
I'm from the future of your future where the only thing we fear anymore is the future
I interpreted Jyn's arc as going from having no aims or ambitions and being directionless to finding something she's willing to die for.
No that's exactly what it was. She goes from giving no fucks, to finding her dad, and deciding that her dad couldn't die for nothing so she started giving fucks. It's not a terrible movie. It's just fan service and the writers trying to prove they've seen the magnificent seven, or if they want to be deep the seven samurai.
I went into the comments to look for a defense of this movie and I'm glad I found it.
I found it really forgettable, but that IS something.
Clayton Berg Yeah. The movie is okay. It’s not Rise of Skywalker or Phantom Menace level bad but it isn’t nearly as good as Empire. It’s really fan service-y which I liked cuz I’m a Star Wars fan but from a neutral perspective the movie isn’t anything special
@@CrazyRiverOtter To give a slightly deeper defense(it by far my favorite of all the SW movies including the originals). The characters have almost no archs and are pretty shallow but this makes them better SW characters.
All SW characters are shallow. And all of their archs are basically boring. Han Solo is rapey and his arch is the same bad boy arch as 100s of other movies. Ben's characters makes little sense. Palpatine is boring. Vadar's arch makes very little sense. Leia is actually kinda interesting but only a little. Luke follows a 100 other hero stories. The other sequals and prequels are just as bad.
But I love SW in spite of that. I love the fantasy of being part of something that matters. I love the fantasy that caring about your friends above all else makes you strong. I love the idea of a universe where there is still mystery around every corner.
SW movies need a lot of time for action. They need a lot of time for world building. Trying to jam in complex character development leaves you with characters that don't feel real. The characters in the other sequels feel like they are actors on a set not people in a war zone. When people with a job to do talk they are not talking about interpersonal issues or being very philosophical.
Rogue one uses its character building time not to build complexity but to build relatability. I really really related to Jyn's father in particular. And the characters are vague enough that its easy to project yourself into their role. They also feel real. Like sure its a total fantasy universe that has no logical consistency but I feel like I could meet Jyn at a party tomorrow.
I like movies with complex and unique characters too. But star wars is just a bad venue for them. Rogue One made the right choice at least for me of choosing to double down on where it shines.
@@peterisawesomeplease I kinda disagree with everything you're saying here though. I find that the good Star Wars movies, like Empire or Last Jedi actually take these characters and inject nuance and depth to them. Luke in both of those movies is very much not your typical hero. Rey's arc in TLJ isn't really the sort of arc a hero has. Kylo's arc in TLJ is wildly different, and his character is pretty unique as far as these big blockbuster movies go. How many villains can you think of that are this conflicted? Teetering on the edge between good and bad. He's not even a cliched anti-hero who is a "good" guy that does questionable things, and he's not just a sympathetic "bad" guy because he arguably helps the Resistance in that movie more than any other character besides Holdo, arguably making him a hero. It's an interesting dynamic.
Rogue One is very unforgivable to me, for having complete cardboard cut-out characters. Every single character in this movie is so bland and boring. No one does anything interesting or exciting. They meander around and then die when the plot says it's time, and the movie trots Vader out so we don't get bored as the audience. It's almost insulting.
OH man, no I saw the Vader sequence as a horror moment, not a hero-worship moment. I felt like they wanted us to see him the way people saw him in '77. Certainly, without knowing who he was, it would have been confusing what his deal was, but since they know we all know who he is, Star Wars fan or not, I thought that sequence at the end was about reminding us how terrifying it is to have him on your tail.
Yes, I agree. This took me back to my childhood horror of Vader when I was seven. It tied it to the beginning of A New Hope.
Yup. When I was a kid watching ANH for the first time back in the 80s he was a towering monster, but as an adult watching the films again... I never got that feeling again. He was a tall dude with asthma who chokes people every now and then, and clumsily swatted at Obi-Wan with a saber thanks to 1970s-quality fight choreography.
On the other hand the scene in R1 where he appears from the shadows and just smoothly, unflinchingly steamrolls over a hallway full of Rebels made me think he was actually intimidating again for the first time in roughly 25 years
not my theater, everyone cheered... it was weird tonally... maybe if someone we actually meet was in that room and about to die, maybe it would have had more weight, but it was just a bunch of randos/red-shirts, no connection, no conflicted feelings - so no need to feel a bit guilty for enjoying the awesome sequence
agree with the guy trying to open the door... same thought crossed my mind, just pass it already.. especially since they kept cutting to it during the sequence
I felt scared, too, but, I mean... theatre whooped, so.
I saw it for this first time on DVD. I was nervous for the rebels even though I knew they wouldn't get caught until above Tatooine. Vader was menacing in Rogue One for sure.
I loved Rogue One, but you make good points. Somehow, the movie to me feels greater than the sum of its parts. I was never bored, I enjoyed every scene and was engaged in the story the whole time, and despite the characters not having much of an arc, I still found them interesting and likable.
CURSE YOU...Jordan! Cause it’s a Star Wars movie, and Star Wars movies are fun. Every Star Wars movie has stupid stuff in it, but they’re still fun space adventures.
It's also better than most other Star Wars films that are not the OT. Though, admittedly the bar is pretty low. The biggest problem with this film is they re-shot like 80% of it and you can very much tell.
I agree. I also liked that in Rogue One, the stakes are real and paramount. Even knowing that all the characters are going to die, the stakes weren't diminished, and the emotional impact was heightened because it shows how much the characters were willing to sacrifice for something they believed in .
I completely agree. Most of Jenny’s points are valid, but I still really enjoyed the movie, liked all the characters, was sad when the died, and thought the answer as to why the Death Star was so vulnerable was brilliant. I really love Rogue One despite its flaws
I feel the same way. These are good points, and the movie could have been better if addressed, but still love the soundtrack, setting, revolutionary themes, and atmosphere.
K2SO is quite ironically the most human character in the movie
K2SO is the best character IMO.
He was the only character I actually gave a shit about.
I disagree. He was the funniest but lots of characters showed their humanity.
Jyn Erso = Rey - a young British woman who learned to survive on her own after being separated from her family as a child
Cassian Andor = Poe Dameron - a badass Latino rebel whose best friend is a comic relief droid
K-2SO = BB-8 - The comic relief droid. Will sell a fuckton of merchandise.
Bodhi Rook = Finn - a nervous guy who defected from the Empire. Joins the other side and uses his knowledge to help them infiltrate the Empire's base.
Saw Gerrera = Lor San Tekka - an old man played by an esteemed actor who lives on a desert planet surrounded by force worshippers. Provides a McGuffin in the form of a hologram before quickly being killed off.
Galen Erso = Han Solo - a father figure who regrets his past decisions and dies as he tries to reconcile with his only child
Orson Krennic = Kylo Ren - a bad guy in a cape who has a long history with the father figure
Chirrut Îmwe = Maz Kanata - a non-Jedi force user with impaired eyes
Baze Malbus = Chewbacca - the force user's big, hairy boyfriend. Carries a super powerful firearm.
Death Troopers = Captain Phasma - a cool-looking stormtrooper uniform with no significance to the plot
Tarkin = Snoke - a CGI villain that's there to order people around
Darth Vader = Luke Skywalker - an iconic character that's barely in the movie but shows up at the very end and it's awesome
edit: wow I was not expecting so much feedback on this. It was basically a joke about how people say the Force Awakens characters are the same as in ANH (Rey is Luke, Kylo Ren is Vader, Han Solo is Ben Kenobi, etc.) Yes there are some similarities but if you've seen the movie you know that these characters are different and have their own personalities.
TJ Hastie Yes yes yes, who is r2d2 then!!!!
Luke Clark R2D2 is himself. He's in both movies.
TJ Hastie some of these are invalid
LUXKIO nah your just ignorant 😂
URAYOAN GARRIGA You're 😂
the prequels are so much worse than rogue one....
That is not saying much...she didn't say it is as bad as rogue one, she said it gives the same SENSATION of everybody fanboying over something bad and you are left there mesmerized about what is happening
Nothing wrong with a Revenge of the Sith
I think Revenge of the Sith is a much better movie
Eh, I might give the edge to ep. 3 (not that it's good or anything). I think Rogue one feels a lot better than the prequels because of its tone. Its darker, more mature, and consistent. You kind of get tricked into taking it seriously but overall its not an interesting movie. You wont care about the characters or story. It's boring, lacks soul. It's still better than 1 and 2, dont get me wrong, but it's not that much better.
nice username
I liked Rogue One, but you made a lot of really good points here. Good news is: I can definitely like both the movie and its criticism :)
Cameko Sam
"liked the movie" if you agree with the criticism, then there must be parts you did not like or that is a total contradiction. unless, you "like" the criticisms but dont agree with them. so by like, you mean "the tone and tenor" ? but not necessarily the content in exactitude...
I can enjoy a movie even if it is not perfect. And even if, as I do now thanks to this video, I can nail down many of those imperfections.
An intelligent mind can understand subtly and embrace differing view points, while the unintelligent will glare at you like.....WAT?!
Cameko Sam Fuck you for your reasonable and tolerant statement!
XDDDDDDD
"We didn't learn anything new about...Princess Leia". Well, we did learn that she was telling an incredibly unbelievable lie to Darth Vader about being a diplomatic vessel. Previously, it would have been reasonable to assume that her ship was just flying flying through space when it was suddenly attacked by a Star Destroyer. Now, we know that her ship was present at a huge battle, and that Vader knows it too. Vader's response in ANH should have been a little more incredulous in the vein of "How dumb do you think I am?"
This has bugged me ever since I noticed it. The ending just doesn't line up with what's implied in ANH.
@@pierce4462 It makes A New Hope so much funnier, though. Like, the idea that Leia would even try that lie is hilarious. And the fact that Vader didn't go "Are you fucking kidding me?" is ridiculous.
@@calebmurphy9406 At least now we know why Vader look a little out of breath in his first scenes; it's because hes been cutting up a bunch guys trying to catch up to that USB drive. Plothole fixed!
It's WILD how badly the prequels broke the canon of the OT. Like, there's obvious stuff like the Jedi being the pre-eminent peace-keeping force in the galaxy then everybody forgets about them in 20ish years, there's smaller but still pretty obvious stuff like Leia remembering her died-in-childbirth mom, but like... Obi Wan doesn't remember R2. Just stuff like that, when you re-watch the OT, where you shake your head and say "the prequels are so fucking dumb."
(Technically, sure, Rogue One isn't part of the prequels, but I consider all non-EU crap part of the same pile of canon-breaking garbage.)
Why would we learn something new about Leia? She isn't exactly a well constructed character with a thought out backstory. She was going to be Lukes love interest in the 2nd film before Lucas decided to make them brother and sister. The StarWars lore has worse ADHD than me.
I didn't see Jyn staying with the rebellion after her father died as her suddenly caring about the rebellion, I saw it as her wanting to redeem her father's legacy. Everyone just thought he was some evil guy that built weapons for the empire, she wanted to make sure his sabotage succeeded.
Just gave up because of the the horrible life Jyn had but when she understood what her father did it gave her hope.
It'd be so cool if they communicated that
As soon as I found out that she thought TFA was good, all of her points meant nothing.
Plastic_Spoon why? She specifically talked about character development and TFA had it. I mean, not much but more than Rogue One.
Character development is like action, it's only an asset if it's good. Finn went from a defector to a vegetable, Rey went from a scavenger to a Mary Sue. For the most part they were caricatures, more colorful but not richer than the R1 characters.
Dauz, this is a comment Daniel Robinson wrote that I feel nicely sums up many flaws in her arguments in this video. Be warned... its fairly long and has facts in it...
Daniel Robinson20 hours ago
Jyn’s mom gets shot standing up to the Empire despite the personal sacrifice of her own life (whole premise of the film). She doesn’t sacrifice herself so as not to be a hostage - she’s nowhere near Galen and comes back in an act of defiance and love (for her partner but also for her daughter - giving her life so Jyn has more time to escape). I’m not sure there’s a more noble sacrifice than dying to protect your children. Also, I’m pretty sure it’s stated in the film that Galen Erso devises the plan to build a weakness into the Death Star once he’s already been captured - not standing in the fields of his moisture farm.
Saw Gerrera doesn’t sacrifice himself. He chooses death because he’s tired of fighting. This is partially explained in his schism from the Rebellion (his methods become more and more radical due to his fatigue with/exposure to the war to the point that he separates and leads his own militant guerrilla force) but also through his questionable methods (torture), obviously unstable demeanor, addiction to whatever gas is in that mask, etc. He’s a scarred victim of the rebellion against the Empire. I mean, you can practically see the relief on his face as the fallout from the blast overtakes him (there’s that theme of personal sacrifice - emotionally, physically, mentally, etc. - in the face of the Empire). What movie were you watching?
Galen Erso is accidental collateral damage - if the entire movie was about that one battle - but it’s not. He sacrifices his family, his freedom, the lives of his staff, and eventually his own life (via leaking the plans to the Death Star) in a personal sacrifice to see the Death Star destroyed. His whole story is one of personal sacrifice in the face of the Empire (there’s that theme again).
Chirrut Îmwe’s sacrifice is so obvious I can’t even believe I’m having to type this. An entire subtheme of the whole Star Wars universe is the battle between faith (in the Force) versus the material (the war machine of the Empire - manifested most notably in the Death Star). This movie takes place years after Darth Vader hunted down and killed virtually all of the Jedi (faith) leaving only the Empire’s war machine to rule over the people of the galaxy. The Force is all but extinct in the minds of the people (as represented partially by the dilapidated Temple of the Whills, which is - big surprise - destroyed by the Death Star). Chirrut Îmwe represents a member of the few dying embers of people that still truly believe in the Force. His faith in the Force to protect him and allow him to reach the switch, which is a crucial part of how the Death Star plans get off the planet, is symbolic of the return of a good Force wielder (Luke) who arrives shortly after this sacrifice (getting the Death Star plans) is made. His death is totally altruistic (like someone else named Obi-Wan Kenobi in A New Hope) and he doesn’t need to prevent it because he’s finally become “one” with the Force. Jesus - do you know anything about Star Wars at all?
Baze Malbus is a combination of Saw and Chirrut, He’s a grizzled vet who’s tired of fighting and nearly dead inside after witnessing the death of (presumably) his only friend. He too has finally witnessed the power of the Force and, despite earlier expressing his doubts about his friend’s beliefs, finally begins to believe in the greater, everlasting power of the Force. Despite not being Force sensitive, this renewed faith gives him the energy to make a last stand against the attacking Imperial forces. He’s not killed “accidentally - he’s in a warzone! Baze, like everyone above, has accepted that his life is forfeit as part of the price for the return of faith in good (the Jedi and the Force) to the galaxy. Again, there’s that personal sacrifice theme that the whole movie is about.
“Bodhi sends out a “radio call” and is killed by a seemingly unrelated bomb…” WHAT?! Bodhi Rook is a former Imperial pilot who defected at the behest of Galen Erso to bring knowledge of the Death Star’s weakness to the Rebellion. He endures torture by Saw Gerrera and then single-handedly connects the ship’s communicator in the midst of heavy combat (his terror at the ground combat likely due to the fact that he’s a pilot) to complete the missions and send the transmission of the Death Star plans to the Rebellion. Not only that, as a pretty skittish and unconfident character he musters the confidence to perform the above action AND lead the forces on the landing pad. The “seemingly unrelated bomb” is a grenade tossed in the now-obvious Rebel occupied ship that just infiltrated the planet by Imperial forces attacking that ship/landing pad. His sacrifice, as a defected pilot whose bravery under fire is ultimately responsible for the Death Star plans even getting off the planet is probably the most genuine of all in the context of the Rogue One story. The fact that you just wrote that off tells me you truly have absolutely no understanding of the movie you watched.
Jyn and Cassian die because they, along with K-2SO took on the most dangerous part of the mission - infiltrating the Imperial base and getting the Death Star plans. If, in your mind, the whole movie was about running from the base to the ship then yes, I guess they did die because they were “too late”. However, if on the other hand, you’re an intelligent human being who (as you imply you do) understand how story and character arcs work, then you’d be able to clearly identify their sacrifice (along with K-2SO) is securing those plans despite the high probability that they would not survive doing so. The fact that this has to be pointed out to you is just galling.
Not liking this movie for legit reason (which I'm sure there are) is totally fine. But these endless hate videos full of dimwitted BS from people who present this ridiculous air of condescension are just ridiculous. Please inform yourself, even just a little, before dropping a 30-ish minute commentary full of half-truths and lazy hate. I can’t be arsed to address any of the rest of your terrible video, sorry.
Huge Nerd This comment here shutdowns anything/everything she had/has to say about this movie. She's not a "Star Wars fan" she's some girl who's seen TFA twice and thinks she knows everything about Star Wars and film making apparently.
Plastic_Spoon Well, aren't you your own personal echo chamber! Awww!
Soldiers just die... nothing heroic about it, sometimes they just die, i actually liked that about the third act. Like it's been said by I think Gareth Edwards, it is sort of a war movie. I understand your need for everyone to go out in a blaze of glory, but i guess the idea was that the foot soldiers, they just die, its lack of meaning gives it meaning, if that makes sense.
Except in war movies usually there's build-up to the deaths of the main cast and they go out doing something heroic, yes even if their role is technically "foot soldier." Dying randomly is left for the red-shirts we know nothing about.
Or if your argument was having several members of the main cast die so randomly was meant to make it realistic...well, I'll call that out. This is still trying to be a Star Wars movie in so many ways, and that's certainly not realistic. But even then, perhaps we'd care more about the deaths of these characters if there was more to them. Only ones I cared about were K2SO (he does die holding off troops for the sake of his allies, thus giving him a heroic death), and Chirrut, which is largely due to Donnie Yen's charisma and the fact that someone was there to mourn. Baze and Bodi? Couldn't be bothered to care, their deaths felt so random and inconsequential, and we hardly knew them. Jyn and Cassian? I found myself shrugging my shoulders as the two leads died...two leads whose personalities can be summed up as "grim and dour" and that's about it.
I'm not saying it's meant to be realistic, it's a space fantasy after all, at least the universe it is in, I'm just saying that i think they tried to make something artsy. I didn't really care about the characters either except for the 2 you mentioned, but i'm fine with that, we knew we were getting the opening crawl of episode IV, as an action movie, and it was just that. It's not perfect, but i still prefer it to VII
bandras87 Seriously? Artsy? This is pretty corporate, especially with the sheer amount of fan service. If anything, I suspect them agreeing to have everyone die was more due to trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and lower the odds of criticism, especially with Lcasfilm being a Disney subsidiary.
And if you seriously think not developing characters is okay because we "knew [what] we were getting" based on ANH's crawl...well I'm just baffled. That's horribly lazy. If anyting, it should be imperitive to get us to care about these people so we feel some emotional weight beyond knowing what happens in ANH.
Sean Thompson What? The original EU story was in the game Dark Forces, where Kyle Katarn infiltrates a base and steals the plans without a scratch (it was the first level).
J DMC That's not the story I'm talking about, go look death star plans up on wookiepedia. There's a girl that is like jyn and there's a battle at the end where they all die just like Rogue One.
“Do I just walk around thinking, ‘I watch Star Wars’...?
Oh wait, I do”
Same tbh.
"This video is just you mocking other peoples opinions! Which is wrong!" -Star Wars fans
"You liked the Last Jedi? You're objectively wrong!" -Also Star Wars fans.
Suck it. Last Jedi sucked like you do.
If you like the last jedi you are objectively wrong. That's science.
if you liked R1, you like ALL Star Wars films.
Way to go piling people's criticism into one vague statement.
It's not wrong to like TLJ because you can't be wrong about a feeling or a preference. However, it's wrong to claim that TLJ has good and consistent plot because it doesn't.
Tanninen93 But, here’s the thing, they didn’t say that. They’re saying that Star Wars fans are doing the exact thing (in a way less informed and polite way) that Jenny is here by mocking people’s opinions if they like TLJ. They’re trying to get across that Star Wars fans are being hypocritical about their opinions toward Rogue One vs others opinions about The Last Jedi. People can enjoy something for other reasons than the ones you listed.
Maybe Rogue One would have been better if Jyn Erso stumbled upon the Millennium Falcon for some reason and then flew it expertly without any training, and then maybe used the Force without anyone showing her how the Force works exactly. Maybe that would have been better. But hey, BB8 is so cute!
El Escritor Secreto
all the characters in TFA are better, which makes for a better story overall
TFA is a coming of age story about Rey discovering who she really is. RO is a war movie. You can't expect happy-go-lucky likeable characters to populate a war movie. RO adds to A New Hope whereas TFA replicates it. We're all entitled to our opinion. There are thousands of "TFA sucks" videos which all make very valid points.
El Escritor Secreto I don't know why but I feel like you just described star wars 7
El Escritor Secreto I agree Rogue one is one of the best Star Wars movies yet. It beats the trilogies and that awful excuse of a Star Wars original number 7 that made me almost not see rogue one. However rogue one beat my expectations. It didn't have that unnecessary comedy, and awful plot lines, or cameos just for the SAKE of cameos that ruin movies *cough the. Force awakens cough*. Sure there wasn't action in every dang scene but I think we can all agree that the Han Solo scene with Rey running away from various pirates and aliens was a bad idea that gave nothing to the movie. This movie had feeling and much more nostalgia that just fit perfectly. The world building made me awestruck and I couldn't look away from the detail, they worked really hard on it. People criticize that it's dark, but it's REAL and believable and lets me really understand the characters on a personal level. I'm sorry but I just can't relate to Rey.
Her powers are automatically better than a sith whose been training for a long time? She fights for a cause that's really not done anything to help her, and her cliché lines make her a fairy tale character. Jyn Urso however had a backstory I could believe, courage that was internal that she had that didn't rely on the force but her own persistence and hard work. I shipped Cassian and Jyn more than Rey and Finn and they never once had to speak a line stating or announcing it like Finn did numerous times in a humorous manner, they didn't need to the acting and body language was so strong(and they may not even mean that way just showing how bad 7 was). And to finish off my rant Rogue one tied together the movies in a way that made me feel like I was watching one of the original trilogies. I understand that rogue one didn't have much room to be original considering the story lines but even it was more original than the force awakens. Death planet really?
I felt real nostalgia and love for this movie I felt in the original trilogy. So to sum it up Rogue one did what most Hollywood remakes and spin offs fail at, making it not FEEL like a remake.
Well said, Savannah. The critics don't understand the tone. It's like people conveniently forgot about the dark moments in Empire Strikes Back. I feel that in time, the detractors will look back and realize that Rogue One is a near-perfect addition to the Star Wars Universe. Maybe sooner depending on whether Ep.8 turns out good or not.
I developed such a thin connection with the characters that when you address them by name I don't really know who you're talking about...
Nobody I saw the movie with could even remember the two LEAD CHARACTERS names. That's a feat.
Impressive
Same haha
+davlmt If you didn't remember Jyn's name you were in the movie drunk or sleep. Lets just say I don't believe you.
It's GIN
I saw an interview with the writers who addressed that Vader moment at the end. Over the years (like 39 of them) they felt Vader became cute, and cuddly. Showing up as plush toys and on cereal boxes, and they felt they needed to make him super scary and mean and evil again, so they did.
Known as LEGO, I have heard.
Strong it is, the desire to merchandise.
But what your characters become, you may not know.
Redirect their arcs, you must, yes.... until all the money, you have.
Sramana Dasyu he didn’t kill ahsoka?
The way to do that would have been to focus on the people he killed and the cruelty of his actions. Imagine the shot shifting from Vader being a badass to a dying young rebel with a agonizing look on his face, and ending the shot there. That would be way sadder, but it would also cast Vader more like the space nazi he was written as.
@Sramana Dasyu
Look up the Star Wars comic books. They give you exactly that.
Which demonstrates part of the problem with the film. I get wanting to make Vader scary, but this wasn't the film to do it, because *it wasn't a film about Vader*. Rebels tried to do that, and it worked because Vader had a major role (in season 2). Obi-Wan Kenobi kind of did that, although they had to have Obi-Wan beat him, which downplayed it a bit. But Rogue One isn't about Vader - he is in two scenes, arguably in the first to justify the second. Rogue One is a film made by a bunch of people who had ideas about what would be neat to see in a Star Wars, and then tried to throw them together into a film without worrying too much about themes, character arcs, or even a genre.
This is like watching Cinema Sins without any humour.
Rogue One has its flaws if you're picky, but it was still awesome, great story, great tone and strong characters. Definitely better than A New Hope 2, sorry I mean Force Awakens.
How was it a great story? She literally points out where the story and characters are weak.
She does indeed, however I would disagree. I thought the story behind the Death Stars weakness was great. The Actor who played Krennic was brilliant and the characters obsession with recognition rather than power/strength causing his downfall was great. K2SO was funny without being annoying. Showing the Rebellion in a different light with actual flaws was refreshing. The coming together of Rogue One was believable after their denial from the rebellion and the journey they had been on before heading to Scariff.
Plenty more I loved about the film, however I was left confused as to why Cassian didn't go for Krennic after he changed his mind about Galen in the Sniper scene.
I haven't got a problem if you didn't like it, who cares! It just annoys me to see a video like this, dissecting a film without any real critical analysis, highlighting points you could literally apply to any film.
Plus, I'm not slagging off Force Awakens, it's an enjoyable film, I want to hate it as it is literally A New Hope 2, the same story line in a different timeline. Rogue One has given me hope that Disney may offer something new with Episode 8.
If we get Empire Strikes Back for Episode 8 I will be mad. Rey learns the ways of the force from Luke only to abandon him to rescue Finn from Kylo Renn with the final scene revealing who her parents are. Hahaha, I will be MAD if this happens.
+Frank Wilson Dude the girl definitely had a lot of humor, of the deadpan sarcastic style, but still humour
Being nitpicky about a film's flaws doesn't preclude it from being a great movie. There are plenty of great movies that aren't perfect.
"He became fond of Jyn (gin), which technically means he had an arc ... I just made it sound like he becomes an alcoholic"
Genius xD
I would >love< to see an alcoholic droid!
@@lanerussell7958 Bender would be an interesting addition to the franchise.
@@greenyawgmoth OMG! Bender in Star Wars! Him and C-3PO in a buddy comedy! This is the best idea ever!
jin? djinn? jyn? gin? gyn? how DO you spell her name? idk for sure
"This movie was a lot like Suicide Squad"
But at least this one lives up to the other's clickbaity title.
This comment needs way more likes.
then you could have renamed this one rogue 5 lmao
Don’t compare that trash to rouge one
Will Smith: “What am I, some kinda Rogue One?”
@@j0an-07-arc6 they're both pretty bad
Totally agree. Obi-Wan Kenobi was always meant to die in the first movie, but he was still developed. Yeah...that is probably the worst argument I've ever heard too.
It also a huge cliche that characters in tv shows get developed in the episode they die in so the audience members feels something when they die. So yeah that argument is as stupid as it gets.
You always develop characters that are meant to die if their deaths are meant to feel impactful to the viewer. You dont develop redshirts and mooks because their deaths serve different purpose.
to be honest, i dont even remember the main characters names. did you know them right after the movie?
After my friend and I saw Rouge 1 we were trying to talk about it and were having to refer to the charters as the pilot, not a jedi, not a mandalorian, and the robot.
Am I seriously the only person who knew them all after the first viewing??
nope
This means nothing about the quality of the movie or the characters, it just means they don't say their names aloud often. I think Baze is only referred to once.
Dank is right. A lot of movies you probably don't remember all of the characters names because it is not that important to. Think about a movie you have seen recently (Not Rouge 1) and try to remember the main characters names. Unless they had a unique name, like Marty McFly or Luke Skywalker, or a name that gets repeated a lot, you probably will not remember the characters name.
Better than Force Awakens.
Yeah, it was so gritty, dark, edgy and original compared to TFA right?
davlmt no it's actually something different tfa was pretty much a new hope with a new Luke a new Ben a new Han Solo type character and then Kylo ren a bad guy
Not saying much~
no, more like it isnt cringy to watch a mary sue go in a "obviously she is going to win" adventure. on the other hand, we have more grounded characters, the best visuals and a good war story
Which is also extremely overrated
Usually I agree at least to some degree with your points but to me this video seemed very nitpickey. I'm not going to try and say it was a perfect movie by any means but a lot of the points you bring up don't really point to flaws in the movie.
"It wasn't THAT dark". Okay. What's the point here. Is darkness necessary for a good movie?
"No one really had a heroic sacrifice". Again, is that necessary for a good movie? Plenty of war movies have characters die like nothing because that's what war is like. I figured it was trying to emulate that. Characters don't need big heroic finales because in war that is actually kind of unrealistic.
"None of the characters really had any arcs". When the story only takes place over like basically two or three days your characters are going to seem static. I don't think that's really necessarily a bad thing. Also, some of them did have a bit of an arc but you kind of arbitrarily described them in a way to make it seem like they didn't.
I don't know. If you had done a normal review then maybe it would have been fine but the way you worded that title makes it seem like "if you liked Rogue One then you're wrong and here's why..."
Green Pulsar Character arcs aren't something that is objectively part of a good movie. It's just something that many people seem to appreciate. If I don't mind characters that don't have much of an arc then there is nothing wrong with saying that I thought it was good. I thought that the characters staying relatively static did not retract from my movie watching experience. What's wrong with saying that?
Green Pulsar lol, that's a good way of putting it
Metaphysical Resonance The points she brought up are points made by other people as too why they liked the movie. She's addressing other people's points so I don't know if you can say she's nitpicking.
Metaphysical Resonance Thank you. 100% agreed.
While the first few points are fair, I think excusing a lack of character development on the time setting is bogus. A film could take place in real time and should still usually have character development. While movies don't have rules set in stone on how to make them good, there really are very few great movies that don't have character arcs for the leads and the ones that don't would usually have to be doing so in a very deliberate way.
I agree completely with what was said here, but I also think there's more to the movie than that. It showed how these people who knew they were going to die wanted better for others, and it showed a side of the rebellion that isn't the fame filled one we saw, a side of it that wasn't the people who got the recognition in this universe. It showed the side of the rebellion that gave hope despite that in the star wars universe, it never really got recognized. I think something about that is just so cruel and beautiful and sad. These people were the driving force behind the rebellion, even though they didn't really get credit for that. They died unceremoniously and nobody was there to worship them for all they did, beside each other. I think it was really a story that needed to be told.
Yeah I agree. I also don't think that the characters were boring or bland. They were rebels, resigned to their fate. When you dedicate your life to ONE goal, you tend to end up one track-minded. Just because theu aren't happy or emotional or quirky doesn't make em bad characters.
That's films biggest fault.
I think her notions of what constitutes a "character arc" are a little overly-simplistic. There are more ways for someone to develop than "goes from being bad to being good" so the argument that Jyn's character didn't evolve at all just because she was "good" at the end but didn't start the movie out so evil that she would let a child die in the street is a weak one. Characters did change. From believing that the world is screwed and there is no point in trying to fix it to fighting to try and make it better. From thinking things are hopeless to having hope. From putting their trust in no one to trusting someone.From being ashamed of everything you've done in your life to doing something you are proud of. And yes the primary narrative focused on Jyn so some of them - like Bohdi- started their shift off screen. Maybe we've watched too much Star Wars if we think that "character arc" must mean "started out good became evil" or "started out evil and became good"- I mean I know that changes that literal happen a LOT in Star Wars! but still- people aren't supposed to be that binary, it's abnormal and I think it's a sign of crappy writing if THAT is your arc.People normally evolve in slightly more nuanced ways.
@@felixincikli7577 it’s basically like how we have often viewed soldiers in bulk, especially those in a rebellion in an insurgency. You know, statistics.. as shitty as that is. Even if they have legacies, their last missions are “just that” if they’re dedicated to their mission. They can be real talented or dedicated special types, but I like the idea that not everyone who IS a character HAS to be a magical character like most of Star Wars. Think of it as telling a snippet of the story of rogue squadron, instead of them all just being introduced and killed immediately in the next scene. So we get a picture of some soldiers that may be a bit more elite, but not mega special over a course of one major mission where the odds are truly against their success and that even if they succeed, most won’t make it. It kinda makes them professionals... the movie could be 4 hours long if we wanted to shoehorn in the whole teams back stories and deeper arcs. At the end of the day.....Heist movies aren’t known for their deep character arcs... they’re supposed to be fun, even if everyone dies in the end. - chakspur
I agree with everything in this (so far) 5-comment thread: it’s a great story of thankless sacrifice that was just poorly told. I do like her idea of all of the characters making it to the end as a mostly intact team-wordlessly appreciating each other, which no one else had done or would do, as they die together at the end of that world. That would’ve made it a much better ending, methinks
"Loving something unconditionally doesn't mean you love it more... it means you love it ... sadder."
That needs to be a meme.
Navid Haider this was such a good line. I will be sharing that for sure.
Navid Haider She is a Star Trek fan she dont even like Star Wars.
you can like both.
I love it! (Your meme, not Star Wars.)
Rafael Scatena...you realize the modern Star Wars movies under Disney's guiding hand threw out the majority of canon. Even Star Wars doesn't like Star Wars!! (Not that modern Star Trek is much better obviously.)
Listen, you can have your opinion just like everyone else, but don't go saying that I'm wrong for liking it. Your opinion isn't more vaild than any one elses. I fucking loved it.
Some Swedish cunt I feel that a lot of the movie's critics are acting exactly like that. It's so annoying. I'm not saying shit about them hating on it or feeling disappointed, so why do they act like their opinion is fact.
by saying you're wrong for liking it, is her having an opinion just like everyone else
but mine is more valid than yours
Triggered.
You can love a mediocre movie with shallow characters, that won't make it a well-written masterpiece. If you're willing to overlook its problems or don't even see them, that's fine, but her opinion is more valid because she brought up solid points, showed a good understanding of the movie's structural problems and explained the nonsensical reasoning behind the reasons people liked the movie, whereas your response to the critique is "I fucking loved it".
I'm just happy that you threw in a nod to Banjo-Kazooie.
DPadGamer I was actually referencing that frustrating baby triceratops train mission in Banjo Tooie but I thought I better keep it general lest I lose people
Ahh, I understand. I'd have been completely happy if you had gone into a whole tangent about how dumb that part was. Then again... I have a Banjo-Kazooie plush... so I might be biased.
How is the Death Star having an exhaust port a plot hole? Something that big would probably have lots of exhaust ports.
It's literally not a plot hole -- it's a security hole baked into the design... :D
Exhaust ports yes, but for the amount of time and effort that went into the Death Star, an exhaust port so flawed that a single round of torpedos going straight down causes the entire thing to explode DOES merit an explanation.
@Liam McKenna There was an explanation, it was ray shielded, heavily guarded and so small that it was an impossible shot. All of the other pilots at the briefing at the look of "what The he'll is wrong with this crazy old guy" when he told them the plan and the size of the exhaust port, even Leia had that look. The only reason Luke made the shot was because of the force and he was one of the very few people left in the galaxy at that point with the force who wasn't part of the Empire.
"Being dark doesn't make a movie good."
Are you telling me The Room and the Nic Cage Wicker Man are not quality cinema?
I feel like they need someone like Jenny in the writers room. They have test screenings after the movie is made. Why not run the script by more people who aren't just "yes" men.
I think she'd make them feel insulted about their bad ideas, which they deserve, but ultimately would lead to her being ousted
Personally, I have always gone with. Run your script/plot against a bunch of table top roleplayers. Does it make sense to them? Do they see any stupid exploits in the rules you create and point out "why doesn't the character do that again"? As per usual, Disney ruin a concept with play by numbers and design by committee
I get paid money to say yes
because jennies dont grow on trees
Except shes crazy for not thinking Darth Vader is awesome, plus the Sith are the good guys.
what am i doing here? ive never seen any of the star wars movies, i know nothing about the star wars universe, and i loosely understand the plot of the movies, but i still am watching an in depth, 25 minute review of rouge one.
True you should’ve just watched an in depth 25 minute explanation on how to spell “rogue”.
I like watching analysis of things that I'm not very invested in, because I learn more about criticism. Then it's easier for me to critique things I do care about.
That's the Star Wars vortex trying to reel you in, you might want to be careful, once you fall in, there's no way out.
@@Winterfang I definitely do
It's Jenny's power
That one Empire officer who keeps begging to see the Death Star in action, like a little boy telling you to shoot a bird, I don't remember whether he was the one named Krenic, but I do remember how his story ends. On his hands and knees on the beach, as the war rages around him, and he looks up. The Death Star fills the whole sky, and its gun is slowly turning ... toward him. That wasn't very much of the movie, but I felt a lot of fear, schadenfreude and satisfaction at that comeuppance story, and you can bet I remember feeling something at this movie.
I don't know why I'm replying to a year old comment, but that was Krenic, however he was on a building not a beach when he got blown up.
when I clicked on this video, I knew how much I loved the movie.
but then I realized I couldn't remember a single thing about the entire movie
This movie was overrated. If you ask anybody to name one of the member of rouge one squad that is not Jin Erso or the droid they wont be able to do it if you put a goddam gun in their head.
But you still loved it, like I did. So clearly they did something right. We just need to figure out what.
I think she got it... I liked the pretty pictures. I liked them so much that I really liked the movie.
@@owlblocksdavid4955 ... *snaps* I've got it! The shoe designs! The film featured really good shoe designs!
@@hakasims why do you need to remember them? Its war? Every solider isnt going to have the most epic story. What was special about Caparzo? Cpt. Hamill, SGT. Hill, Wardaddy? The literal monument to The Unknown Soldier is about the sacrifice. These men and women gave their lives for a cause you just associate them as Heroes because you associate Storm Troopers as the bad guys whom they themselves are greatly nameless
Your dry, snarky sense of sarcastic humor really is just fantastic.
You are severely undersubbed here.
You really should have like 200K subs with the type of talent you have with your arguments.
thenewkidd I agree, in fact I'd love to see her partnering up with other famous youtubers like Screen Junkies, Schmoes Know, The Nostalgia Critic, Cinemasins/wins, Red Letter Media, Mr Sunday Movies, etc.
Jake The Snake now I'm just imagining all of those Channel's contributors in a video together. What a shitstorm that would be.
*nod*
+TheLineCutter agreed, quality content takes time to push out and I'd rather have 1 - 2 good vids every month or so than a series steeped in mediocrity. been subbed to Jenny's channel since a little below the 30k mark and I'd hate for her channel to get dumbed down because of some need to go big fast
+Jake the Snake When that happens it doesn't turn out to be that great. It'd be hard to hear Jen over Nostalgia critique's screaming.
Instead of ridiculing you like the rest of the posts, I'll just address the content in order:
The movie did have a lot of characters, some static. But that's your issue, not the movie. You're looking for a movie story to be developed like the previous Star Wars movies. Star Wars has previously been about developing a story and characters over a 3 movie arc. This is a contained companion movie that runs directly into settings up the original trilogy, there isn't time to develop all characters completely or have some giant single movie story arc. It's basically a setup of action and tension leading into the original trilogy.
Saw Gerrera has an arc from the Clone Wars to Rogue One. Rogue One is showing the end of his arc, how he's become a broken pseudo Vader type character through his actions. His voice is a physical reminder of just how bad he ended up.
Chirrut Imwe was the attachment from Rogue One to the force, showing the will of the force directly in a character. It also expands on the mythology showing that there were non-Jedi characters heavily involved in the worship of the force and protecting the sacred places (the Kyber mines) of the force. It also lends into A New Hope by showing how the last remnants of people believing in the force had been essentially whittled down to being street crazies. And provided much needed mysticism and comedy for a dark movie.
Baze Malbus (Chirrut's friend) certainly had an arc. It mentions him once having been the most devoted member to the force, and by the end of the movie we see him return to that belief.
Cassian's beginning of the movie is not a Han-Shot-First action, that's COMPLETELY dropping context. Han had a gun pointed at him and Greedo said he was going to kill him and get the reward. That's called self defense. Why this new generation has some sort of abortion on the grasp of moral context on this subject (and many others) is beyond me. Get it right, Han was is self defense, it was completely moral, and completely rational. Cassian's action was far different, showing how the Rebel movement is having their spies do things that really take a toll on them (which consequently leads into the end of Rogue One where those who HAVE done things they didn't like are ready to sacrifice their lives on a suicide mission). It wasn't inconsistent, it was showing the entire mentality of the Rebel spies and how it affects them in the end. This wasn't easily missed.
Jyn certainly had an arc. The baby saving was an reminder of seeing her own self being destroyed by this fight between the empire and rebellion. She turns from having been heavily involved during being raised as a fighter by Saw, to being turned away from the fight by Saw, to seeing it destroy her life and having no outlet, to being thrust back into it, and finally accepting it. This is another example of you wanting to see an complete arc during the movie, while not recognizing where the character started in their arc before.
You're listing off what comprises a action movie like it's part of "settled science" movie school rules. What 1977 movie would NOT have been made if people kept to that stance? This is an action segment leading INTO the original trilogy. It certainly had tension without needing to have deep emotional character connection, and tension is MUCH more than just physical exertion (list any number of dozens of other movie concepts of tension, like spy movies, for example).Nevermind, I stopped responding to the points, I couldn't take it anymore...
Well said.
The movie isn't bad because of having a lot of characters, some being static. It's her issue that she was looking for a singular movie to follow the exact format of a 3 movie saga in development as well as follow film school and story standards.
Weak? You have to go the route of saying if the movie was something it never was billed to be (just a film in general, complete separated from Star Wars, completely disregarding the context of the story of the heist) to try to make a point, YOU'RE doing the weak thoughts. It wasn't mediocre in what it was or what it was made for, it's a companion movie to the original trilogy. I suppose you'd want a half hour of exposition introducing Darth Vader in Rogue One? That's idiotic, and totally evading the entire point of the movie to try to criticize it in any way you can find. I'm guessing you'd just up and say the Clone Wars movie or show, or Rebels, each episode is weak because it makes no sense as a stand alone without because it didn't show previous character development?
They developed characters just fine in the film, for those that needed it. Are you suggesting they didn't do it at all? Take off your Plinkett baseball cap and try to look for excuses elsewhere.
Oh FFS... Poor you, how dare you have to watch something else as part of a long story to understand another story?!?!?!?! How AWFUL! Here's a hint, a lot of big franchises throw in context references or sub-stories in different places. Don't like it? Then why the hell are you even watching Star Wars? You're bordering on proving to be just a troll about now.
I understand her points just fine, that's why I disagreed with them. Your ridiculing about how I don't understand arcs is just proof of how lacking of confidence you are in your stance. If you have to resort to that, and to resort in the constant disregarding of context about what this movie was in order to attack it, you make the argument yourself as to how full of it you really are.
The only sad thing about this franchise are the armchair Plinkett's who think they've got it all figured out because they watched a video or two of how film school and writers standards MUST be followed otherwise a movie is crap. Monkeys going around repeating things as if they were "intelligent" because of memorization of standards.
Blocked, troll.
I agree immensely, but I actually have to disagree with something: the characters actually were very interesting. They were all enjoyable onscreen, and I personally cared about them a great deal. But now so many people are going around saying they had no character and people are believing it unquestioningly for fear of being told that they have low standards. It was Hitler who actually said that if you repeat a lie enough, it becomes truth.
Jyn and Cassian both had arcs, but the other characters did not, and that is fine. Not every character needs to change and evolve throughout a film. They just need to add to the movie with their character, and their character was excellent.
I am very much sick of these arbitrary rules of filmmaking developed by what I imagine were a bunch of rich, snobbish film critics from the 50s trying to decide for everyone else what makes a good movie.
"The movie isn't bad because of having a lot of characters, some being
static. It's her issue that she was looking for a singular movie to
follow the exact format of a 3 movie saga in development as well as
follow film school and story standards."
Sigh. No, she wasn't. She was simply looking for what you wanted, I wanted, and everyone wanted: A GOOD FILM.
A good film with well rounded characters with strong character arcs. Its amusing that you write "some static" when talking about the characters, as if that's something every film needs or its natural to be there. Here's the thing, if a character is "static" in the script you either: A. Rewrite it to give it an arc or B. Fire the screenwriter and hire one that can write. (...and I can't believe you wrote "as well as follow film school and story standards". SERIOUSLY? You're proving my points for me. Its like you realise this film is bad but don't want to admit it)
Like a lot of people, you're giving this weak film a pass because it has Star Wars things in it. A singular film should have well drawn characters. A singular film should have an engaging, interesting story. If it doesn't, then its a mediocre piece of film making. Putting the words STAR WARS on the poster doesn't change that (although Disney hopes that will distract you to the point where you gloss over how badly constructed it is)
Here's an example for you- Guardians of the Galaxy (I think its a fair comparison). A 2 hour film about a group of misfits banding together against all odds. Main difference? Guardians had well written characters, each on their own interesting, clearly defined paths. They also bonded as a team, I'd go as far to say that they felt like a family by the end. I felt something when Groot died.
Why did I feel NOTHING when the Rogue One characters died? Because the writing in this film is piss poor, that's why. Its lifeless, characterless and grey. The characters go nowhere, don't feel 3 dimensional. Its all flat. They are just kind of...there. Filling space. The lines all sound like they were written for the trailer. Guardians proved that it could be done in about the same running time.
Here's what I imagined happened with the reshoots. Disney came in, saw the rough cut, realised it was a 4/10 at best, and ordered Edwards to cram in as many references to the older films as possible to try to cover up how wafer thin it is. Guess what? It worked! The factory rumbles on.
I expect you blocked me because you recognise the truth in what I'm saying and don't want to read more. Or maybe you're just happy with mediocre. Fair enough. I am not.
"what you wanted, I wanted, and everyone wanted...A good film with well rounded characters with strong character arcs. "
There is not one definition of a good film. This isn't Mad Men, where the focus is on character studies and development. And I didn't come into this movie expecting or wanting that. I wanted a good film, and I got one. Not a great film, a good film. Nevertheless, people always want different things out of movies, which is why there are these kinds of discussions. I agree with all of the criticisms about the film, but still enjoyed it.
Why I enjoyed it:
It made me actually care about the Star Wars universe. I grew up with Star Wars, but it never felt real or made me care much about it. This helped that and made me actually want to re-watch everything.
- It showed the darker side of the rebellion (killing informants, secretly ordering a murder without clear information)
- People in the empire are just people doing their 9-5 (childhood flashback of Jyn)
- The Death Star is terrifying (destruction of the city, which granted isn't quite needed for the story, when Krennic see's the Death Star on the horizon)
- A much needed gritty war section in the franchise from the perspective of non-force users (making force users more exciting and terrifying)
- The "luck" involved and tension revolved around the plans that lead well into A New Hope
- Connecting Anakin's bad dad jokes to Darth Vader. Now the transition feels real.
For me, the characters were good enough to make me feel the urgency of the story. I've found Rogue One to be the best Star Wars film. No, it's not a great movie, but IMHO none of the Star Wars films are great or approach anywhere near my top 10. But it was enjoyable
When I started watching Rogue One, I felt like I had been teleported into a movie that was already playing for 40 minutes. The whole thing felt so rushed.
I liked K2SO, though. He deserved a better movie.
Ok, it wasn't just me. I felt like I was having a stroke watching everything. Stuff just happened and none of it made sense. I had to keep pausing it and checking with the friend I was watching it with to see if I understood the plot!
@@JackedThor-so Basically same here. It was almost like the movie was too fast paced and like the reviewer says, it never actually developed any of it's main characters, or if it did have them do something, it would contradict that action later in the movie. It was just a random collection of characters that I never believed in their motivations or actions and none of them had actual depth. The writing was let's just get from point A to B to C so we can get to all the flying and explosions at the end.
Hes gona get a series
How do you live? When you speak you give me anxiety. It's as if you where to open up your fridge an saw a apple, and started tripping about how that apple got there. "Like what's the story arc behind this Apple?"
This made me chuckle. Good one.
Underrated comment
At 20:45 she asks, "You know why you're bored right now?". Well I was bored because her delivery of facts was so devoid of emotional content that I suddenly found myself reaching for a razor blade and heading towards my wrist. Also, could she get *slightly* more condescending to people who liked the film because I really didn't think she made herself clear on that ;).
Was a masterpiece? Nah. Was it entertaining as all hell? Yeah. The action did, for me at least, have emotional impact because of the context of the greater SW universe and I did feel attachment to three of characters (K2SO, Jyn, and Chirrut). Plus it was extremely well choreographed and had all the hallmarks of great Star Wars fighting (pace, camera angles, cool ships). For some reason the film just entertained me and, I believe, in her mind that makes me "primordial pond scum". But I was at least happy pond scum so there is that.
This.
You don't pay to be entertained by the sight of the apple in your fridge tho
you should criticize the original trilogy's inconsistencies and quirks in this same fashion. I would love to read the comments.
Me too actually, though I definitely think the OT is superior to anything that's come since. I'd still like to see Plinkett style reviews of it though, because it does have its problems.
I don't believe characters HAVE to have archs to make a good character.
If they're a main character that is driving the story, yes, they do. It's the bare minimum to make an audience care about a character's plight. Otherwise you end up really not caring about all the characters, because they're just cardboard cutouts of roles to fill and it's really boring to watch, which is exactly what happened with Rogue One.
Kaleido Motoring I dunno, I think Stolen's right. A character can be engaging and well realized without necessarily having to have a distinct change in characterization from one end of the film to the other. Rogue One was definitely TRYING to be that type of film though, and while it worked for me I get why it didn't for others.
For a supporting character, yes. Supporting cast can just be foils that have a consistent behavior (in fact, it's often problematic narratively if they are inconsistent in any way) but when even your main characters lack any sort of forward momentum, the story falls flat on it's face. It's fine to not flesh out every character, especially in the short time frame of a single movie, but when even Jyn's arc is flimsy and barely exists, it really makes it difficult to care about her motivation...
Kaleido Motoring there's a difference between fleshing a character out and giving them an arc. A character being fleshed out means they feel like a rounded, living, multifaceted person. An arc is just how that person changes over a series of events. Some really great stories involve characters who either don't change in the face of events, actively *refuse* to change, or change in a way that's deliberately not a gradual build.
No, they don't. Darth Vader did not have an "arc" in A New Hope. The droids never have an "arc". Chewbacca? Arc-less. Boba Fett? Please. I think perhaps people misuse the term. It was a good movie, and I challenge people to apply these same stupid metrics to A New Hope and maybe one or two will stop circle jerking enough to enjoy a fucking movie.
I’d actually love a movie about a workaholic dad starring Tim Allen set in the Star Wars universe. Get Lawrence Kasdan on that ASAP :)
He could be in the employ of the King of Druidia. Droid Mechanic.
And his son would be Matt, the radar technician.
So I gather that the main argument here is that the characters in Rogue One don't matter and because the characters don't matter then nothing they do matters and if nothing they do matters then the movie fails.
That argument makes sense theoretically in a screenwriting textbook kind of way, but this movie worked for me despite not conforming at face value to classical screenwriting rules of character development. I found myself invested deeply in what the characters were doing, more so that who the individual characters were or why they were doing it or whether they would survive. The main character in Rogue One wasn't an individual like Jyn or Cassian; the main character was the Rebel Alliance, a collective whose cause as a viewer I grew more and more deeply invested in as the movie progressed. So it wasn't the survival of individuals like Jyn or Cassian that I was invested in, it was the success of the Rebellion. In this context the action scenes weren't meaningless pyrotechnics or eye candy -- they were a depiction of a valiant struggle against a powerful opponent, the Galactic Empire. It is a classic underdog faceoff. And the stakes this time couldn't be higher. If the Rebellion fails, then Princess Leia won't get the Death Star plans and then Luke won't meet Ben or Han and he won't blow up the Death Star and our collective childhood memory of Star Wars won't come to pass, much as if Marty McFly failed to get his parents to kiss at the Enchantment Under the Sea dance triggering the chain of events that would lead to his non-existence. Rogue One is exciting in so much as we are simultaneously witnessing the chain of events that lead to the glorious birth of Star Wars that is "A New Hope", and the presentation itself shows us how in jeopardy this glorious event was to not happening. "A New Hope" not happening? That is the most unthinkable of possibilities, yet in Rogue One we are presented with the agonizing suspense over how such a possibility may or may not play out, similar to when Marty's fingers begin to vanish during the dance.
So if you don't find yourself invested in the overarching conflict of the Rebellion against the Empire towards the goal of realizing the events we know as "A New Hope" and are instead looking for meaning in the stories of the individual characters, you'll walk away from Rogue One disappointed.
Chuck Kahn the only difenrece between Marty and the cast of R1 is that I legit care for Marty. I didn't give any fuck of any of the characters from the movie, just because it look intense dosn't it is intence. Just look at the phantom menace
But why do you care for Marty. What is Marty's character arc? To get that Toyota 4x4? George McFly has a character arc, but Marty is the same person at the beginning of the movie as he is at the end of the movie, only now he has a truck. This is the problem with having a checklist of scriptwriting textbook "rules" for movies -- we see some empty tick boxes that oblige us to conclude that a movie we just enjoyed must be unworthy. "Back to the Future" is a great movie, but not because Marty is a great character with an amazing arc, so the textbook rules fall apart here. If the checklist fails, throw out the checklist, not the movie!
Rogue One was intense because of what was at stake. It wasn't just action for action's sake. It was action in service of a tangible goal: for the Rebel Alliance to score a victory against the formidably oppressive Galactic Empire. Jyn, Cassian and the other individual Rebels didn't have amazing character arcs because they were all in service to the arc of the Rebel Alliance, which begins the movie disorganized and hopeless and ends the movie triumphant and hopeful. Just as the arc-light Marty exists to help George fulfill his arc, so too do Jyn and company exist to fulfill the arc of the Rebellion. And no, they didn't get 4x4's at the end of the movie.
Chuck Kahn then you will never understand what is good character develop. A character must to be related for who he is, not for what it is.
Use that to explain Marty McFly.
i can say more things about marty macfly than any of the cast from rogue one (yes even characters that i legit like like the droid, and the assian daredevil)
way on overthinking, jeez
Alvs Notes thats basically what movie critics are paid to do
God forbid we thinking critically about the media we consume or want it to be better...
NekoMouser it's always good to think critically and i agreed to some things she said, at least to an extent. but she's overanalysing a simple movie. a simple movie that is a spin off for crying out loud
+creativevision
Well said.
This is what we like to call "nitpicking". It's when people blow small issues that may not even be issues out of proportion rather than finding a real reason the movie is bad.
This is a good analysis. Ignore all the hate from the undiscerning fanboys
Sadly, I have to agree with her analysis.
The fans should ignore the haters who patronize them.
Karmagheden Yep you get it
yeah except the movie she wants would suck because we couldn't get to the point of the film. Let her just watch films for film class instead of missing the point of a good star wars story.
+Karmagheden "The fans should ignore the haters who talk down to them." Yes, they should. Did they? Are they? No, they're not. They're disliking and spilling their spaghetti after this video triggered them, leaving comments. That's not ignoring. You aren't following your own advice, either.
"i hope i explained myself well in this very long video" ... Jenny today: here's a 4 hour video on a defunct star wars hotel! ...so this is where it started...this is where Jenny learned she can do longer videos and people will still watch
Thank you! I thought I was going insane. So many people say that this movie is better than Empire strikes Back, I just don't know what they are seeing that I'm not seeing, I was trying to be optimistic but I was quite underwhelmed by Rogue One.
No one ever said that. Also, you have no idea how to use punctuation.
Bonzulac I've seen a lot of people claiming Rogue One is the best film in the Star Wars series but each to their own I guess, enjoy what you want, but I haven't seen any compelling arguments backing up that opinion.
I've seen people say that.
echo 5 I'd be to each their own if people stopped comparing it to TFA and enjoyed for the standalone war movie it is. That and if CZcams's agenda didn't put this on tending
Someone will always match your opinion, it doesn't mean you're right tho. If most people like it and it is a global success you are wrong... Numbers don't lie, even though it is still subjective. Anyways, you are entitled to dislike it.
People who grow up in war torn environments tend not to be touchy feelly... most who didn't enjoy this movie, didn't enjoy it mostly because of preconceptions. Unlike the 'Saga' movies, R1 is not a character lead movie, but a story lead one. I love R1 and hope we get more like it and less of those that only supply fan service.
I am excited for the Han Solo movie but like you said, it will of course be completely focused on Han Solo unlike this movie which was a tat of everything
Firebrand rogue one had plenty of fan service
Firebrand but Jinn had the exact same look on her face
How did the "story" lead the move? Nothing really happened until the end.
We also knew the ending so how should that even work?
LookzA Subtle fan service... not in-your-face gimmicky fan service, there's a difference. It was still its own movie, which is more than can be said about TFA (as much as I liked TFA).
I liked Rogue one...... And I also liked this video....
I'm one with the force, the force is with me.
Shijir D i am the force
Lets talk about the 10 worst reasons why :D
Can you do a prequel, or is it a sequel to this video? No matter. Can you talk about Andor? I love it.
I still love Rogue One, but Jenny makes amazingly insightful points.
I think that's because of lot of them *were* bad reasons to like the movie (not all). But the good aspects weren't touched on.
My bad reason is that Rogue One is better than the prequels and sequels.
My other one is that people die. Not enough jeopardy in most of these films.
Having boring characters is the second worst movie sin behind being a boring movie ... the sequels have big flaws but they are not boring ... Rogue One simply is a big waste of my precious time, more than any of the sequels ... and I rarely say that about most movies I consider to be bad movies, that says A LOT.
She makes some good points, but also some weak ones. The "lack of character arcs" point fell pretty flat if you ask me.
So all characters need arcs in movies to be likable?
yes, Boba Fett had a fantastic arc, because of that everyone liked him.
yes
Boba Fett had an awesome arc in Star Wars Holiday Special /s
Well, he wasn't a main character. Just a nice side character.
TheLineCutter I can agree with that.
No matter what anyone says, the whole movie was worth it just so I could see the Vader scene at the end
right? my friend and I were nerding out over that. We were laughing over Vader's punny scene on mustafar, and then that final scene. who knew two minutes would be worth the price of admission
Jacob Morgan Amen brother
Yes. lets have film studios bore us to death with another terrible movie only to have people exclaim "Whoa totally worth because of that one 5 minute scene".
That's not gonna send the wrong message at all.
It's bad enough that people think this was good; saying one, completely unrelated scene can make up for a terrible movie is a whole new level of retardation.
Jacob Morgan and thats why the movie was bad. Just to see Vader, ultimate fan service pointless movie.
IT BROKE NEW GROUND
I really liked that there were no heroic deaths. Like in actual war, you don’t get that, and they gave their lives in a massive battle, each with their own objectives.
You seemed disappointed that the movie wasn't 100% cliché.
You're kidding right
is having interesting characters you care about are a cliché now?
Having character development is cliche now? Okay...
who is the character you supposed to care about? they are bland at any given opportunity
yea I know I was supposed to care about them but they always were boring, do you also care about rocks?
What really attracted me to the final act of Rogue One wasn't that it was a great action sequence or tonally dark. It simply reinforced the basic concept of war, which is a lot of moving pieces working simultaneously to overcome the opponent. The entire movie was moving from one step to the next and each character achieved their intended objective at the expense of their own life. No one in the original trilogy mentions the Rebels that lost their lives to get the plans. None of them are remembered, and that's the brutal reality of war. The final scene with Darth Vader, instead of filling me with glee, filled me with terror. I watched, knowing the plans would eventually get to Leia, but wondering how many more lives Vader would take before that happened. The most important moment in the movie for me was when the Rebel passed the plans through the doorway in the hopes that it would lead to the downfall of the Empire. He knew he was already dead, but he still had one more move to make, and we see the payoff of this one simple action in the original trilogy.
Totally agree with this comment, but it would have been nice if the main characters had more arcs to them so their deaths mattered to the viewer contrasted to how little their deaths will be/are remembered.
Which could have made a point about how all these other side characters probably also had their own personal struggles, and family and etc. but they're all taken away by war and dedication to a cause they will never know wether or not succeeds.
We never found out how Han or Chewie knew each other or why they care so much about each other, nor do we know anything about Lando's past. Does it matter if the onscreen relationship works?
Jenny wants movies to tell everything, leaving absolutely nothing to your imagination or emotion. All must be revealed on camera! Otherwise, it's a bad movie! Also, no Star Wars film can have depressed or damaged characters, or if it does then Jenny demands a full on-screen explanation! And nobody can die randomly during a battle! Realism is so important. But also, character arcs and other script tropes are really important. So be realistic and logical, and also super cliche. Script doctor when.
"Maybe we need a prequel to Rogue One!"
Disney: "Enjoy your Andor series you specifically asked for!"
And what makes TFA better? Lol, Finn is an interesting character with an arc, but Poe is a good pilot. Oh? Really? That's fucking it. He was a character that should have died from the beginning, he had no importance and was boring. (Okay, so he DID blow up Death Star 3, but cmon, 3rd time anyone can do it. Rey was also the most annoying Mary Sue Character ever. Her power makes no sense and she has no flaws, she also doesn't have an arc lmao.
And what's more boring then a movie you've already seen? At least RO's plot was original.
+TheMTgleamingcobragamer Original? Rogue one plot = the crawl of A new Hope. It's 40 years old.
+TheMTgleamingcobragamer Original? Rogue one plot = the crawl of A new Hope. It's 40 years old.
+TheMTgleamingcobragamer Original? Rogue one plot = the crawl of A new Hope. It's 40 years old.
davlmt The only thing mentioned is that they got the death Star plans. Rogue one expands it and the crawl barely says anything about the plot. Force awakens is completely copied though
The title of this vid is really condescending. She might as well have called it "10 reasons you're stupid if you liked Rogue One".
I appreciated that kind of mischievous title. Rogue One fanboys ought to be called out on their stupidity.
And she's 100% right.
I'm really tired of little whiny bitches saying you can't say anything that is even remotely not nice, because you're hurting people's feelings.
Matt Fast does it matter if the title is condescending?
I guess if you like a certain movie (Rogue One) your stupid? I guess people haven't heard about opinions.
I'll grant you Jyn Erso's mom.
Forest Whitaker dies because his character has become half robot breathing with the assistance of a manual ventilator. He's a tired old man who's given everything to a cause that no longer wants him, and witnessing the Death Star's power, he feels he's lost the war and no longer wants to run.
Galen Erso is purposefully assassinated by the Rebels. The whole reason the XWing squadron is there is to take him out.
Chirrut dies because the Force willed it. He's a blind man putting his faith in the Force to guide him to his task. The Force allowed him to fulfill his purpose, to flip the switch so the communication could go out and the fleet would be ready to receive the plans. He died because he knew that was the will of the Force and accepted it.
I'll concede to Baze, his retaliation does seem half hearted. Though his death is not accidental. He's a target. He also took out 4 guys, you act like that's nothing.
I'll concede to that Bohdi dies from a random grenade but the guy is in the center of cross fire between rebels and storm troopers.
Jyn and Cassian die because their only means of escape is destroyed. They say when they land the ship they come in on is their only escape route. Most if not all other landing pads are under fire and sucombing to imperial control.
This isn't a heist movie or a group of trained spies trying to sneak into and out of a facility undetected. They're a band of rebel soldiers trying to steal a document from a facility that they have very little information on. They say it before they leave Yavin "we're making this up as we go along". That is the challenge, to find a way to overcome each obstacle as they discover it.
The whole downloading onto physical media makes sense because they're there to retrieve information. You think the empire would allow them the opportunity to send it remotely? They're forced to carry it that way to not give the empire the chance to Jam their signals and not give away the location of the rebel base which could be tracked through relayed telecommunications. This isn't even me stretching anything, this makes sense in a context of information displacement.
You said action only matters if you're invested in the characters involved. That's not true. The opening of Saving Private Ryan is an amazing action sequence where you don't know any or the characters, who will live or die. The action is good because you feel like you're there and watching something spectacular. It feels real and tangible. You can't tell me how to like an action sequence. Just because flaming arrows aren't as effective as Hollywood would have me beleive doesn't make the opening battle in Gladiator less awesome.
I've seen the movie once. I like the movie. I agree it's not perfect. I agree it's pandering to nostalgia. I agree the first and second act feel rushed and choppy. I agree that the characters lack development. I agree that it feels like Jyn isn't properly motivated and that her original arc has been heavily modified if not completely destroyed. I agree that Tarkin's CGI is some of the best CGI that's still stuck in the uncanny valley and that Leia's CGI is a little worse.
A lot of people keep complaining about the characters. I get it. They're empty. I don't care. People love Boba Fett. WHY?! He's in the original trilogy for a total of maybe 15 minutes? Or Porkins, people fucking love Porkins. Why?! There's no arc or development for him. I don't watch Star Wars for the characters. I watch it because I like the universe they exist in. I like the action and the stories. I like the Lore. If I want characters, I'll watch Star Trek. The show, not the movies.
I don't care about characters. I liked the movie. I liked that we saw Jeda, and Vader's Castle on Mustafar. I loved Tarkin even if I could tell he was CGI. I loved the AT-ATs making an appearance. I liked that it tied into Episode IV. I liked that it answered the literal plot hole about the Death Star. I like the concept of a planetary shield. I like that the rebels won their objective while losing the battle. It doesn't make me wrong.
My neck is real itchy all of a sudden...
OldManSpock he explained he doesn't care about characters much ... why are u trying to summarize this girls video ? And talk about how u care about characters ? Just stfu dude let him like the movie
In a way, I call it good world building if you give us characters that don't have much character development in comparison to the OT.
These characters were good, likeable, and cool, but they weren't Luke Skywalker.. and it opens up your mind to the idea that there are people who exist in this universe.. do what they need to do to get by with their llives.. survive, etc.
It makes you realize the universe has less defined characters that still play a role, you see everyone's contribution to the downfall of the Death Star, not just from the main characters perspective only.
wow. Very nice explanation. I didn't liked RO so much. I tought it was a OK movie, but in this video the girl is just nitpicking.
Great reply. I agree the movie isn't perfect but I thought the characters were pretty decently done in the context of what this movie is i.e. a snapshot of a piece of SW lore that fills in some information from the original trilogy more fully. TBH, when I next watch ANH it will be with very different eyes and a new sense of gravitas after watching R1. To me, that suggests that R1 succeeded in accomplishing it's goals as a film.
The Force is strong in this one :)
"Just because you love something unconditionally, doesn't mean you love it more. It just means you love it sadder."
"What... what are you trying to say, Mom?"
Wtf is wrong with people .... I loved rouge one
I haven't bothered watching it yet.
So maybe watch it before looking at spoiler videos?...
***** Nah. I already know everything that happens.
Would've never guessed honestly.
harrythebarry nope I'm a perfect example of some who liked a film and does not focus on the little things
there we go I clicked it now stop recommending me this @CZcams
wow I watched a bit and have to say I disagree massively. Their deaths are incidental to make it realistic. This isn't a film where characters live through ridiculous moments via plot shields. They die when they're supposed to. It's called making it believable.
Nemesis lol right?
So your excuse for LAZY writing is, "it's good because they wrote it and it happened". LOL.
A Miller how is a character's death lazy writing? I don't think you understand my point. Don't reply because I don't want to see this video ever again.
OF COURSE they were all going to die, that's not the point. She wasn't calling for characters to "live through ridiculous moments via plot shields", she was asking for characters to CARE about. That there deaths were "incidental" is exactly the point, they were incidental but not consequential because there was no emotional core or connection to the characters. You're ascribing some sort of nuance to this movie which simply isn't there. It was a painfully obvious, dull, safe film where the only thing which could have redeemed it was character development and it fell on it's face completely.
Imagine if Glory ended with Robert E. Lee, flanked by Ku Klux Klan soldiers, menacingly walking toward the heroes down a narrow hallway in Fort Wagner where all the doors are locked so they can't escape, then he draws his saber and casually kills the heroes off one by one while a foreboding orchestral rendition of Dixie plays and the audience cheers.
Fuck.
sounds funny
_Well, I wish I was in the Land of Cotton..._
I never realized the KKK had their own infantry division...did they wear their robes into battle? That just seems like a terrible idea. Maybe they had battle robes like the Jedi in CW then.
@@countmarkula1993 So if you count the various massacres they committed as battles then kinda. Though the robes they wear in movies and parades and stuff isn't exactly accurate to the time period.
It's weird watching this again knowing what we know now about Rouge One - about how they basically built the movie we ended up seeing from the scraps of a much messier and more disorganized story that everyone realized was bad and no one knew how to fix.
My take on Chirrut: In a universe where the Jedi are no more, he is a priest who preaches the Force. He has likely spent his lifetime doing so, even though he has never seen proof of its existence, and is considered by many to be a bit loopy because of it.
It is only in the final battle, when he surrenders all his defense to nothing but his chant, and yet is able to walk across an active battle field unscathed to the switch that must be thrown, that he finally obtains the proof that the Force truly exists. This is why his death is both triumphant and beautiful.
At the same time he demonstrates something else. He trained in the Force all on his own. No Jedi Master for an instructor. No books. Just him and his faith. The Force is something to be reckoned with, even without training, which becomes important in The Force Awakens and Last Jedi.
So well put. This is also the reason I loved this character. He's evidence that the light side of the Force will live on in good people even if it's not formalized like the Jedi have done.
@Oscar Guerrero Rogue One is not a standalone movie and that's totally fine.
@Oscar Guerrero Pretty sure this was never intended to be a standalone.
except for all the other times in the movie that he uses the force to help him, like when he fights the stormtroopers and shoots a TIE Fighter by sensing it lol
Wouldn't the Jedi Order have been around when he was a kid?
I haven't seen this movie, but I get the feeling that it's cast is made up entirely of boba/jango fetts, in other words, "characters" that look kinda cool, but don't actually say or do anything important.
So you call allowing the Rebels to defeat the Empire not important?
Your feeling is wrong. Almost every major character does something instrumental in the retrieval of the Death Star plans.
I totally agree Kentama.
Billderbeerg S they don't even look cool...they look and act bland
VietnamD0820 Everytime someone tells me something about the movie the less I want to see it in theaters:c
Oh well... Yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me 🎤
This was great! I didn't hate or even dislike Rogue One, I just didn't like it, and I don't really get why it's so popular among people who hate the other Disney Star Wars movies.
There were things I liked about it, but overall it just didn't work. My biggest problem was one you talked about for some length, which is where the "eight dirty words" of fiction came into play: "I don't care what happens to these people." Not a single one of these characters was compelling or interesting or memorable enough for me to care that they died, not even K2-SO. I didn't even remember most of their names.
So when they died (which I expected, because otherwise such big shots of the Rebel Alliance would surely have been in the OT), I was just like, "oh look, they all died." *in Jerry Seinfeld voice* "That's a shame."
I know this is a 2 year old comment, but I feel like offering a thought. I think that part of what makes it more appealing to people who don't like the new trilogy is that it's a return to the Rebellion era, and it feels kind of like an movie of something from the Expanded Universe.
@@VulpesVvardenfell Could be! And I know a lot of people who don't like the ST specifically dislike how they used the OT characters (which I personally loved), whereas R1 only had a few (pointless) cameos of them. So I guess sequel haters feel it wasn't as much of a disservice to them.
Yeah... I hadn't watched the movie since it came out, and all through this video I was like "oh yeah I sort of remember that being in the movie". It wasn't bad I guess but it was pretty unmemorable.
@@beanbunny607 cool opinion, dude..?
wrong, krennic exists
"Loving something unconditionally doesn't mean you love it more, it just means you love it sadder."
...yeah
it actually would have been really great if they all got out safe, then Darth Vader killed them all at the end. They could have put the extra time spent on death scenes making the characters better
Or hey, if they want to push the Vader angle, have them carry off the plan successfully except they left too many clues behind, have that happen early in the movie, and then Vader goes on this long quest of hunting them all down one by one. They get to shove Vader into a bunch of scenes, they get to flesh out the characters more instead of having them be chess pieces to be moved from one place to another, and also that sounds more exciting and less pointless than the stupid "we've got no plan, let's go steal the thing" that works because movie.
You mean like in Das Boot?
You've been criticizing this movie since it came out. We get it. It didn't live up to your expectations. I love your videos, but these rogue one rants (especially on twitter) are getting pretty annoying. Just enjoy the movie for what it is and stop bashing it for what it isn't. EVERYONE IS SO CRITICAL
HunterChan she's free to say whatever the hell she wants. It's her channel, and her twitter page. If it bothers you that she's using her critical faculties in a way you don't like, you could always....ignore it?
The Ponderer So you just said that i'm also entitled to my opinion? Okay! Well I already expressed my opinion... and if you don't like it you could just ignore it.. right? Thats what you said right?
Yup
HunterChan The movie wasn't very good and I didn't like it
Jenny Nicholson well you've made that much obvious.
I'm glad the movie wasn't cliche af like she seems to want with all the character arcs and special sacrifices etc lol
LegoRed did you just imply that having characters with arcs.... is a cliché?
I guess some people have such poor taste in films that they think it's a "cliché" to have deep characters. Wow. What a world.
I said the movie would have been cliche if all the characters had arcs (among other things) I didn't say character arcs themselves are cliche.
LegoRed those two sentences are functionally exactly the same
If you can't tell the difference Idk how to help you
The guy Cassian shot was injured. Cassian knew he wasn't going to escape, and if the Imperials caught him, he might rat Cassian out. So, he killed him. It's a nice bit of characterization that shows how he will do anything for the rebellion, even if it is something awful like killing an injured man who just helped you. When he meets Jyn and the others, he starts to let go of that original mentality when he refrains from shooting Jyn's dad.
Well on TFA we also knew the resistance would blow the starkiller base o guess that makes that movie not interesting too.
That movie sucked worse than the prequels!
wizkid2000
Oh god that's just too funny!!!........you aren't kidding?
Trophies people say R1 one story is bad well if it was not good at least it was original not like the force awakens.
Rafael Scatena Aside from Rey, and it's not so original plot, is there any other reason why you don't like it? Because I'm tired of hearing those be the ONLY reasons why people despise that movie to no end!
Boring character maybe, why does Rey defeat a trainned jedi, where she learned to use the force, why lukes hiddin? how she know so many things piloting fixing starships fighting with lightsaber, hand to hand combat, why did kylo ren defects? Isnt han solo too old to hunt dangerous aliens? How the 1st order could re-establish itself so fast. How did they built starkiller base and no one notice? Why is the resistance numbers so small? How could Rey resist mind probe? Did Rey had trainning? Does she know Lule? Why she likes the rebellion? Why her family left her there? What is her story? How can Kylo reist a blaster shot? Isnt Rey usong too much force for someone who does not know what the force is? I would be ok with it if the explainned so. Isnt boring that she sucedes in all challenges without effort? 2 characters who want to scape the quest is not a exciting movie.
...Can't finish the video. That monotone whine coming out of your mouth is killing me.
there is no ark in her voice. just monotone the whole video. :/
WoUlD YoU RaThEr ShE tAlKs LiKe ThIs?
omomon I'm sporadic caps?
...
No.
omomon ;)
does everysingle character need an ark to make a good movie?
shamir castillo no, unless you have weird and high (but unnecessary) expectations, that pollute your experience.
shamir castillo No but at least more than one.
That is one thing I made a long discussion with my friends about. In an ensemble movie like Rouge One you don't need character arcs. You need TRAITS. Something that separates them. Makes them unique. They don't need an arc to be well told characters. Chirrut and Baze are good examples. We want to know more about them but we don't need to. We understand them and they stand out.
I don't think they need character arcs, but they do need characters. We were spoiled with Guardians of the Galaxy where the whole cast had one and it was heartfelt.
No. Raiders of the Lost Ark is a very good example along with just about any James Bond film, Amadeus, The Silence of the Lambs and Chinatown.
She clearly has an obsession with character arc, but very little understanding regarding why characters have an arc. The best way to think of it is like this: Character Arc = Story, No Character Arc = Situation
A situation is a problem or predicament with an obvious and direct solution. A situation does not reveal character; it tests problem-solving skills. A situation has no (or few) subplots, twists or complications. A situation begins and ends in the same emotional space that it started in. (Jeff Lyons - Writer)
Rogue One has a fairly simple problem/situation which is that some rebels need to get plans for the Death Star. That is it! Now set the characters on their journey and solve the problem.
Just found you today and love you! Your combination of a calm, sweet and gentle voice mixed with deadly sarcasm and wit makes you a complete NATURAL!*
Bender & K2SO bonding over Gin - I would totally watch that fanfic.
Rogue One was good. :( :( :(
God as a legends fan i hated it...
kant it was alright, some scenes were cool, some scenes were meh.
Jenny makes a lot of good points like usual but even with the flaws it worked for me.
Agreed. She needs to stick to My Little Pony movies.
it was good, not great.
I was accused of hating Star Wars and fun in general because I dared to ask questions like "why was Darth Vader in this movie?" or "why couldn't they have less characters so there'd be more time to actually get to know them?". Fanboys ruin everything and I'm sure when the next movie comes out a good portion of them will be like "yeah, I never really liked Rogue One /that/ much". It's weird that people feel this obligation to like every single thing about an IP or else they'll lose their bragging rights...? I guess to call themselves a fan.
"why couldn't they have less characters so there'd be more time to actually get to know them?".
Because then it'd be a different movie, some of us actually like the movie as it is.
And that's exactly what worries me. This movie was mediocre at best but it's getting praised all over so it's only gonna get worse from here in terms of Star Wars movies. We already have a movie devoid of character motivation or actual characters. The movies might not end up as offensive as the prequels but they're going to be bland as hell which in some ways is worse.
Also of course it would be a different movie if you changed something, that's such a stupid thing to bring up. You know what else changed the movie? All the reshoots they did inbetween the trailer and the movie being released.
Dom The Elegy I was trying to point out that there are people who like this movies for reasons that you dislike the movie.
People like movies with bland uninteresting characters? Yeah, sorry never gonna understand that one. Nor do I want to.
Literally all I liked or could even fucking remember about this film was the Vader murdering people in that hall scene, and that's it, and while that scene was exhilirating and all like... that it was the only part i liked or even remembered is sad. I was listening to this today and was like ??? krennic??? I literally forgot who the main bad guy was.
I couldn't understand why Screen Junkies Dan Murrell and Andy Signore disliked the movie, but you have eloquently and concisely explained their point of view better then their combined efforts.
Mark Estes the beauty of this channel
just saying, not every character needs an arc, that draws out the story to a point of standstill, and therefore bores the audience. you need static characters to balance out the dynamic characters, and you need flat characters to balance the round, otherwise the main character(s) don't stand out enough. while agree there may have been too many flat or static characters, I think you're way too critical of that point.
also, this movie isn't supposed to be about characters in the first place. None of these people originally existed in the first movies, and have no relevance to everything else. The movie was about the story of how the Rebel Alliance got the plans to the Death Star leading up to a New Hope, its not about Jyn, or Bodi, or anyone else. The character development is left for the trilogy movies, where its about the Skywalker family, and those characters.
By 'arc', we're not talking about long drawn out backstories, we're talking about interactions that happen during the plot of the movie (perhaps one that is a little less tedious) that build the characters at the same time. It seems crazy but somehow other movies manage to do this. Have characters and plot at the same time. Crazy thought isn't it?
As she said, we know what the movie is about, we know how it ends. Who fucking cares unless there are characters that you believe in though? Did you purposely not listen to what she said?
NDfor SPDadsdas I did, and I just happen to disagree. Yes movies can have both, but, not all movies are made to be that way. Deadpool is not supposed to.have a good storyline, but has a fantastic character. I also like to point out that the way they did it is much more realistic, these people have known.each other for a total of what, a few days at most. And she's saying they need to have this team dynamic, and they need to change. Well, in the course of a few days, no one is going to change or do much, so it wouldn't make any sense for them to be all buddy buddy. That was a big issue of suicide squad, they had one, ONE good moment together, and they're attached like they've been friends forever, its dumb
And Deadpool was worse off as a movie, as a result.
She's saying the characters actually have to have beliefs and motivations that cause them to interact in an entertaining way that illuminates who they are and we can identify with 1 or more of them.
This happens in some movies that span a single day.
In this movie no-one is doing much or changing in the course of a few days. That's the problem.
NDfor SPDadsdas I just have to disagree. I don't think a movie is better or worse off with sacrifices like that. Deadpool is as good as it could ever be, and its because it focused on his character, if there was a super intense plot, it takes away from the character, and who he is supposed to be in the first place. Rogue one to me didn't lose much in terms of being a good movie by not having character arcs. I think it made perfect sense the way it was presented, and actually brought a sense of realism that TFA didn't have in terms of characters, the fact that they aren't going to change for someone they just met in the middle of a war. They do everything to get the job done to.survive, and that's the beauty of it for me. I actually didn't like how Jyn started to have this romance kind of thing, it was forced, and it took away from what the movie is
Hey Jenny. don't worry about that like-dislike ratio for this video. I'm a huge Star Wars fan, and I really liked this movie. I've seen it three times now! But you bring up some really good points and it really makes me think, and I believe that that's the point of your video. You bring up the things that people (especially HAAARD core Star Wars fans) are too afraid to question. I've liked all of your previous videos and I'm glad you didn’t just jump on the bandwagon and say 'It's the best movie ever omg so cool!' and I respect you for that. Good for you. Keep it up! That's what Star Wars is all about! People TALKING about it! Which is exactly what you are doing. And for all you people that are going to reply to this comment, this is literally the first CZcams comment I've EVER made in my entire life, so don't expect me to ever read or reply to any of your comments to this. Jenny is an honest Star Wars fan. Fuck all uh yall, and may the Force be with you. Always.
"Krennic had a bit of an arc, in that he started out interesting, and then got less interesting." Lol!
As someone who didn't like Rogue One ask that much this critique was pretty spot on. But this line was the one that got me.
@Rotten to the Core! ) i recommend you read Dark Empire and rethink your life.